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What is "Pop Music?" (with Jesse Chambliss)
247 Plays8 months ago
This week we welcome back Jesse Chambliss, host of Jesse's Girls podcast, and we have an incredible - and chaotic - discussion as we try to define what exactly is pop music!? We cover all of the faves as we use everyone from Madonna, Kylie and Janet to Avril, Harry and Alanis to exemplify and identify the pop landscape. We also end with a very special round of "Sounds We Don't Talk About Enough: Kylie Minogue Edition."
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Transcript
Welcome and Pop Culture Warm-Up
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, everybody, welcome back to pop theory. It's your boy, Zach. And I'm really excited because we have Jesse Chambliss back on the pod today. He's another two timer club. And we've got some really important things to talk about. I feel like there's a lot happening in the pop culture moment right now. But there's a conversation that I do want to eventually get to. But first of all, Jesse, how are you?
00:00:23
Speaker
Hey, I'm so glad to be here, Zach. You really lubed and warmed me up before we started recording. We really did. We covered a lot of topics. Covered. And I mean, we are covered. Splattered. Just like things are sticky. I mean, I could crack a blanket in half.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, truly. And I was like, Zach, are we going to be using any video clips? Because I shaved just in case. So I just need people to know I put forth effort, even though I am wearing a tank top. That's no shade to your tank top. Thank you. You know what? It's funny that I am usually always wearing tank tops when I'm recording. I just get hot so easily. Oh, I'm constantly sweating. The sweat is constant. I'm a pit sweater. So even if you don't know that I'm sweating, I'm always sweating here.
00:01:13
Speaker
Okay. In the pits. In the pits. In the pits. In the pits. I'm a knee sweater. My pits sweat, but my knees are like, my currently are dripping.
00:01:23
Speaker
Okay, but I know we're talking about moisture, but knee sweater is also really cute. Like if you have cold knees, like someone knits you a knee sweater. That would be really nice. I know if I had cold knees, that would be the perfect thing. I need like knee air conditioners. Knee fans. Knee fans. I need knee fans.
Defining Pop Music
00:01:42
Speaker
Jesse, I'm really excited to have you on. I messaged you a while ago. First of all, thank you for being on. Super excited.
00:01:50
Speaker
But when you and I were chit chatting about what do we want to talk about on our episode, there is something that I brought up that I feel like is part of a bigger conversation about just genres in general. But I feel like in the conversation of pop music, people keep being like, that's not pop. Or they're like, that's not dance music. That's not rap. That's not this. That's not that. And it just got me thinking, I was like, well, what is pop music? Yeah.
00:02:19
Speaker
And I feel like, and I was talking about this actually with my coworkers today, because I was like, you know, I use these two songs in particular as examples. I was like, Seven Rings by Ariana Grande and Only Girl in the World by Rihanna. Both considered pop songs, but sonically sound
00:02:36
Speaker
Very different. Yeah. Ariana Grande's Seven Rings, which is like a like R&B trap style song. And then you have Only Girl in the World, which is like the biggest EDM synth dance pop craze of the time. Yeah. And I mean, I'm going to harken back to some examples where
00:03:00
Speaker
And we'll have to define terms here for this to make sense, right? But I think a lot about the early 2000s anti-Britney movement, where Gurley started making rock music again. I like to rock out. Yeah, like Avril. But those were pop hooks. Those were pop songs. They just had a guitar. So is rock music different because it has a guitar?
00:03:22
Speaker
Right. You know, I would argue a lot of 80s hair bands choruses. Those are pop hooks. Oh, my gosh. Kiss Kiss is a rock band, but they wrote pop songs pop.
00:03:35
Speaker
music baby it's pop music it is it just is and as someone who um and i'm not i'm not saying this from the outside like my my siblings are all older my parents are older parents for my age and so i was really immersed in a lot of these genres that i don't think people my age were listening to at the time when we were little yeah um just because i would talk about certain artists with kids in elementary school and you know in middle school and they were like what
00:04:01
Speaker
you know until they are a little bit older but i think you and i being wired the way that we are you know we have very vivid memories of music in a very specific way absolutely and you know what it just. I don't know so much of it could be defined as pop but i think i think you know it can be defined as multiple things.
Pop's Genre-Blending Nature
00:04:21
Speaker
Could be and I think that that's a big kind of the big question mark sash like talking point is that like pop there's to me I feel like pop music is kind of a two-definition type of thing. Okay late on me. So I feel like first and foremost pop music pop is short for popular.
00:04:40
Speaker
So it is kind of an all-encompassing, almost an umbrella term about whatever genres of music are popular at the time. Like what is mainstream? What's getting played on the radio? Or these days, like what's trending on TikTok and Instagram? You know, that can range in a lot of different sounds. But then you get pop music specifically
00:04:59
Speaker
that seems to kind of talk about certain artists, Madonna, Britney, Kylie Minogue, you know, all the quote unquote pop girlies, if you will, are labeled as, you know, pop singers, these are pop songs.
00:05:15
Speaker
And there seems to be a, people seem to think that there's a style associated with it. Yeah. But when you really dive into these artists' discographies and you listen to the pop songs that they are creating, they all have very different sounds sonically. Like, I mean, baby, one more time sounds very different than breathe on me. And breathe on me sounds very different than rock boy. Yeah. Little, little deep cut for everyone out there. Yeah. So.
00:05:45
Speaker
And I think we would be remiss not to mention, because I'm an intellectual ho. You are so intellectual and such a ho. I am. I am. I am both things.
00:05:56
Speaker
I think that the connotations associated with pop music are rooted a lot in misogyny and like white supremacy, though, because why is Janet never talked about like a pop artist? You know what I mean? Why do we have categories and award shows and use words like urban? And just because there might be more of an R&B style to something when a lot of people that were put in that category were releasing pop music.
00:06:24
Speaker
Like, or, or pop adjacent, or it was played on pop radio. Right. Like you, you just had your episode about 1997, um, and the year end charts and you talked about too close by next, right? Like that, that's R and B music, but also it's, there's also a pop song, you know, structure to that because it's like verse chorus, you know, like hook, like the hook, the hook, the hook. And, um, I don't know. I, I,
00:06:54
Speaker
I could see that song fitting into multiple categories, which is why I think it was popular. Yeah, absolutely. And I like that you mentioned the structure of it, because I think that that's one of the characteristics of a pop song, is that there's a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, typically bridge, R.I.P. to bridges. A lot of songs don't have bridges anymore. Yeah. Bring them back.
00:07:15
Speaker
But bring them back and then typically double chorus at the end. And so that is definitely a structural component. But there's also, again, there's a lot of pop songs that maybe don't have that structure. Right. But, you know, and I love that you brought up next too close in specific because Jeff and I were having a conversation once about R&B songs.
00:07:40
Speaker
Very similar conversation to what we were having right now. And I mentioned, I want to say it was either Tony Braxton, since he wasn't man enough, or Destiny's Child, Lose My Breath. And I mentioned them being... My nipples got hard, I'm sorry. I know, right? Like, I'm basically lactating. And I said, oh, this is what I was saying. I said, I miss R&B, like, kind of club bangers like this. And his response was, well, those are pop songs. And I was like, okay, I definitely see what you're saying. But I was like, they're also R&B.
00:08:10
Speaker
It's pop and be and people have made that made that sort of connection and use that term before pop and be so I'm not originating that or claiming to but
00:08:19
Speaker
That's very much a thing. Title of episode is you claiming pop and B. Just like a white man. Just like a white man. Gay men's JoJo Siwa. I'm inventing a genre, pop and B. Please don't. I rooted for her for so long and then she did not help herself. I rooted for her. I did. I wanted her to not be what she has become.
00:08:47
Speaker
I'm excited to see her conversation about herself in about five years when she reflects on this behavior to talk about, to see what comes out of it. Is this all their record label being like, do this, do this, do this? And she's saying like, okay, okay, okay.
00:09:02
Speaker
Or is this like truly just her own little thing? I don't know. Sorry. No, you're fine. But something that I think about with pop music is I think that what I consider pop music to be as the term popular music is what is influencing what is
00:09:22
Speaker
the mass consumed thing at the time, right? Because like you're talking about, there are some real structural differences or even just like, um, you know, production differences, even if the structure is kind of the same, right? So like
Evolution of Pop Influences
00:09:36
Speaker
when I think about the mid nineties, that's my reference point because my age, right? Like, yeah.
00:09:41
Speaker
Ace of Base really is like a pop standard. Totally. Because they started the big Swedish wave of pop over here in the United States that hadn't been around since really like ABBA, right? Yeah.
00:09:57
Speaker
Max Martin is very much tied to what we consider pop to be, and Dennis Pop, and a lot of those people that came from that lineage of Swedish producers, right? But when you think about Ace of Bass to what was happening in the early 2000s in pop music, where it became more R&B influenced, and then we went to dance pop in 2009 to 2011, or something like that.
00:10:25
Speaker
those are all pop songs, but they were very much influenced by I think what was selling, what people wanted. Yeah, what people wanted, what things are kind of bubbling under. I think a lot of pop is also influenced by a lot of pop, in my personal opinion, seems to be influenced by like things that are not popular. And that's kind of what kind of because
00:10:46
Speaker
pop, it will essentially take a sound, beat it to death, and then beat it a little bit more. And then when you think it's dead, kills it, officially. And then we'll move on to the next sound. And I feel like, and I know that I use this term a lot and people get frustrated with me, but whatever.
00:11:03
Speaker
But like I say like sleepy trap beats like back in like 2014 2015 when that really became the new sound that you know kind of taking over because people were tired of EDM at that point. Yeah, people were tired of the you know, all of the things that come out from the years that you had mentioned from 2009 to 2011 and but I feel like this, you know, trap beat of it all
00:11:26
Speaker
has overstayed its welcome. And I've never seen that style of, or I've never seen a genre kind of stay that way for so long. I feel like we still are getting like reminiscences of that still. I feel like we're finally starting to get out of it.
00:11:44
Speaker
But I don't know that was for me, that's where that's where I personally have gotten frustrated with like a lot of today's pop music because I feel like more than ever record labels are trying to make their artists. They hear a sound and they're like, you're going to recreate this and you're going to recreate this five million times. Yeah. So where do you feel like I'm going to I'm going to talk about someone who did not start releasing music in 1990, I promise. So let's talk about someone like more current, like a Victoria Monet.
00:12:14
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So I feel like just because of things that I mentioned previously about like race and, you know, notions that we have about pop, like she is smooshed in a certain category, but like she's a pop star. Yeah. Like she's giving us everything that a white pop girl from the early 2000s would have given us, but just like with more of an R and B frame, right? Like, yeah.
00:12:40
Speaker
She's which for good reason, of course, like whatever. But I'm just saying, like she's giving us the fashion. She's giving us the the choreography. She's giving us a show. She's giving us vocals. She's giving us fun hooks.
00:12:54
Speaker
So like that is everything that made up a pop star in the early 2000s to me. Absolutely. Yep. But it's kind of like I feel like people still aren't like fully on board with her. I feel like it's interesting because on your mama was kind of like her. I don't want to say breakout single, but I feel like that. I mean, that's what it was, though. Got her her Grammy nominations and ultimately best new artist in charting.
00:13:22
Speaker
and charting. If that still means something to anyone. So that's a good point. Do you feel like charts matter? If you're on stan twitter they do.
00:13:31
Speaker
because there's some stand wars happening right now with Billy's album about to debut at number two instead of number one and Taylor having a fifth week and all the girls are in a tizzy and I'm just like, okay. For people who are like, the charts don't matter, they're dead. It's like, you still clearly care about them, right? Yeah, you very much care. I feel like it's one of those things where charts matter to a degree the same way that like,
00:13:58
Speaker
awards matter to a degree, but it's not everything. It's not the end all be all. And because, you know, a lot of my favorite songs either were never singles or that eligible to chart or never charted or maybe charted low. And we also see a lot of songs that maybe chart low or lower than expected, but then stand the test of time. Robin's Dancing on my Own is a great example of that. Didn't chart in the US at all. Nope. I didn't wait. Didn't it peak at 99 or did it not? It did not chart.
00:14:28
Speaker
didn't touch that top 100. So we are hearing, you're hearing it here first, folks, like the hate crime that is Robin's dancing on my own, not charting on the Billboard Hot 100. Yeah. Arguably one of the most influential pop songs of the last decade.
00:14:42
Speaker
Absolutely. If it's referenced so much, if people are talking about it, if people are covering it in a big way, you know what I mean? Like it clearly means something means. I mean, we would not all of midnights by Taylor Swift would not be there without body talk by Robin without dancing on my own. Well, I mean, Brittany was always kind of behind Robin too. You know what I mean?
00:15:09
Speaker
Do you have the CD single for maybe one more time with the enhanced CD? I have the album. I don't have the CD single. Do you remember the interview clip where she mentions Robin being one of her inspirations? Like, hello, Brittany knew. Well, I mean,
00:15:29
Speaker
Robin would have been Brittany if she wouldn't, if she would have stayed working with Max Martin. I mean, she wouldn't have been what Brittany is, but she would have been that archetype, that teen pop, like they were setting her up to be that with that first album in the U S like that was the trajectory she was on. Right. So, and then, you know, with her, her contributions to blackout, you know, like Brittany and Robin, there's like a lot of parallels between their careers. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:59
Speaker
But I'm getting on a tangent now. Yeah. I love it. I love it. But back to charting, back to Victoria Monet, for example, it's interesting because I do sonically, I still hear her in just my own ears, hear her as a more R&B artist. But I do also hear her in the pop realm. I think experience with Khalid and SG Lewis is a great example of her doing a pop song, which is a great song.
00:16:26
Speaker
Have you heard her song all right on Dragwire 2? No, I have not. I think it's kind of like I would say the danciest like dance genre. All right. It's so good. Oh, I'm going to have to check this out. You're going to love it.
00:16:43
Speaker
It's not going to give you Europop dance remix-y girl. Which I'm totally into right now. Which I know you're... I know you love it. But it will scratch an itch for you that you have. Yeah. Yeah. I think that what I'm currently missing from today's pop realm
00:17:05
Speaker
Z machine mentioned this on a previous episode and I think he hit it right on the nose is that like music, a lot of pop music right now feels a little too cool for school and a lot of pop music. What makes it so great is that it's so he's the word bombastic. Yeah. I know what you're talking about.
00:17:22
Speaker
And I was like, that's it. I miss the bombasticness of pop music. No, don't get me wrong. There can be a lot of really fucking cool, edgy, fun pop music. I think blackout is a great example of that. But there are still flares of that bombasticness, that bigness. And I feel like we just keep missing a lot of pop stars just keep missing the mark on that. Not by their own fault. I think a lot of it's influenced by their labels and them eventually just being like,
00:17:50
Speaker
getting into that. What's popular and like what's going to make a viral TikTok clip. And, you know, I love the versatility of the genre of pop because we can get something avant garde though. And I think that's not always there either. So like what he's referencing is that, you know, it's too cool for school, but I wouldn't necessarily call a lot of the pop music being released by maybe the main the main people.
00:18:18
Speaker
I wouldn't necessarily say that it's all it's often avant-garde or even like pushing the envelope in a certain way. Right. But there are moments where it definitely did, you know, like a Lady Gaga debut. Like, yeah, that was that was pushing the envelope. Right. That's the last time that I can think of in recent years where a pop star emerged onto the scene and you truly saw a cultural shift in the way music was created.
00:18:49
Speaker
I mean, I think there's a big way. I think there's a case for future nostalgia just because you don't see people get to ride an album wave for two years anymore. True. That's fair. You ride it for three months and she really did like and it's not even I can't even say it solely because of the pandemic because other albums like were a flash in the pan during 2020 that we're not talking about anymore. But future nostalgia people are saying like
00:19:18
Speaker
that was the disco revival, which I know that's a whole other conversation. But, you know, I think there's a case to be made that she did do that with that album.
00:19:28
Speaker
Okay. I disagree. I'm just kidding. No, you can. You can, but I do think there's a case there. I definitely see what you're saying. I think for me, what I noticed with Lady Gaga, and it's again, it's not just Gaga, right? Like there's a whole thing happening and it's always, you know, there's always a bunch of things behind the scenes and it's usually a collective of artists and producers and people.
00:19:50
Speaker
but was specifically with Gaga when she burst onto the scene. And it was a long trajectory. I mean, Just Dance was released in what? April of 2008 and didn't hit number one until December or January of 2009. So, you know, it was a long climb. But once she got there and started and hit that mark and the theatricality of it all. Shout out to Glee.
00:20:16
Speaker
But she I saw a shift in the way that artists were dressing. I saw a way a shift in the way that pop songs were being crafted. Everyone was creating these like big hooks. Dance beats were coming back in a big way. EDM started taking over.
00:20:34
Speaker
It was a shift in, so I see what you're saying with feature nostalgia, but I don't see people continuing that because I feel like, but maybe just the different way that music is now, but I was gonna say everything's so quick now that the way that music is created, I feel like that didn't stick necessarily, but definitely people definitely were trying out disco.
The State of Male Pop Stars
00:20:59
Speaker
No, we got like four solid years of disco releases after that. I don't know. I feel like it. I feel like it definitely did. There was a shift there, even if it's not to the same magnitude as, you know, former artists. Like I definitely do think there was a shift. Yeah. Well, shout out to those artists. Yeah. Shout out to those girls. Shout out to those girls. You know what I feel like is also missing from our current landscape.
00:21:28
Speaker
What? Where are the male pop stars? Like mainstream male pop stars. You know what I mean? We've got the weekend and that's about it. That's what it feels like. And you know, I respect what he does. His music is a very hit or miss for me.
00:21:44
Speaker
Yeah, I will say I think that the independent pop boys are really bringing it right now. That's the same with the girls, though, too. I think it's just the indie scene period. Yeah, they are the ones that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting right now. I feel like but for me, male pop stars have always.
00:22:05
Speaker
I don't want to say boring, but they're not as exciting. I think Justin Timberlake, and I'm not trying to shade Justin Timberlake because I feel like that's really easy to do right now, but I will say just costuming wise, we'll just use that. Male pop stars don't have to dress to impress. You can literally throw on a baggy t-shirt and baggy pants and go on stage and everyone's like, oh my God, you're amazing.
00:22:30
Speaker
But the girlies have to put on the avant-garde suit, put on the heels, put on the wig, put on the lashes. The leotard that we were forced to see for seven years straight. The leotard. The leotard. Like I'm fine with the leotard, but like I don't want, that is every like legacy Vegas girls thing that they're doing. Like, you know, I think about Christina, it's just always like that leotard bodysuit thing. Like I get it, but.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. And so, but I do feel like the music coming out of these pot, I mean, Z machines are great example. Vincent's a great example. Troy is not an independent artist, but I do enjoy a lot of the stuff that Troy puts out, but it also, I don't know, it's hit or miss with me with Troy Saban. Well, sometimes it's a little gloomy too. It's still, it doesn't always hit that like really fun sort of like uptempo. Yeah.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah. Sometimes it's a little gloomy. It's a little gloom, which is okay. Sometimes we need a little gloom. Yeah. But yeah, you were right. Like there's a lot of like male pops. Like there is a big lack in that right now.
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I think like boy bands were a good avenue to have them because for some reason, like being a male pop star is also, there's layers there too. Right. But like, but yeah, when I think about the solo pop stars, I think about from, from my, my memories, I do think about Justin. I think about other Justin. Um, and then, yeah, the beeps. And then I think about, um, like usher. Yeah.
00:24:04
Speaker
Because yes, he's R&B, sure, but he also does pop music and dance music, and he's been all across the genres, right? Right. And yeah, I mean, even like, I don't know, would you consider Harry Styles a pop star? Oh, that's a great question.
00:24:23
Speaker
I would say the average person would say yes, but like his music, so to me, his sound in general, up until his last album, Harry's House, was a little bit more on the rock side to me. So I just never necessarily thought of him as a pop star, per se. Do you think Watermelon Sugar is a rock song? That's a great question. Do you think Adore You is a rock song?
00:24:52
Speaker
That's another great question. To me, I think in my faggy little brain, yeah, I feel like that those lean more rock. I think that if there were 100 people in a room, 99 of them would disagree with you. I think you're right. I think you're totally right. But you have to think about your perspective and your bias, though. And I'm going to read you for a second. Give it to me. I know you're ready. You're ready to receive it.
00:25:21
Speaker
You pop music for you I do think has more of a dancey uptempo beat.
00:25:28
Speaker
To a degree, yes. Like I do think that's where you lean more. Right. And so if there is something like an Avril type of, you know, girl or whatever, that's not going to like read pop immediately for you always. Sure. Yeah. Avril reads reads to 18 year old me. Avril read very much metal almost.
00:25:53
Speaker
Losing grip was I was like, fuck, I listen to that weekly. I'm not joking. Yeah, it's so good. And I was I'm I've never been harder. I've never been edgier. I've never been ready to start a fight. Yeah. But but we felt that me, too, we felt prey to marketing. Yeah. I was just because she had a guitar. Right. Right. Yeah. But so. But to your point about like songs being to be uptempo, dancey.
00:26:21
Speaker
I agree, but there's also an instrument. There is an instrumentation piece to it where, to me, like you brought up Ace of Bass earlier, the sign I think is a quintessential.
Pop Music's Diverse Soundscape
00:26:32
Speaker
Like when I think of pop music, that styling, that instrument, that instrumental is kind of what comes to mind when I think of pop music, kind of like this drum machine, synthesizers, things like that. The more organic instrumentation
00:26:49
Speaker
It's not that it's not pop, but it does start going different directions depending on what the sound is. Yeah. Okay. I have a question for you. Give it to me. Do you think that jagged little pill is a pop album?
00:27:00
Speaker
Ooh, I don't immediately think of it as a pop album, but I definitely is a pop album. Yeah, it's a pop album. Yeah. But also then, but you know, if you like put jagged little pill in the pop conversation, it's like, wait, what is pop music again? Right? Like I can see us talking in circles here. Yeah, right. Exactly. It's like, it's like I'm just putting you on the spot. I know. I know. Yeah. No, but I, I appreciate that because I was looking through Apple Music's like top
00:27:28
Speaker
100 albums. That could be its own episode right now, just letting you know. But, you know, I was we were talking about it today because, you know, they're almost revealing the entire 100. And the talking points that we had today at work were Madonna's Like a Prayer is at like 77, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Which I was like, I was like, okay, in my head, I'm like, okay, well, Ray of Light's gonna become later.
00:27:53
Speaker
And so far it's not there. Where is Ray of Light? That is my question. Where is Ray of Light? Apple Music, if you're listening, I will cancel my subscription if Ray of Light is not in the top 10. And I know it's not going to be, and I'm going to be heartbroken, and I'm going to have to cancel my subscription. I'm going to fake cancel my subscription to Apple Music. Wait, wait. How many Taylor albums have they had on there so far? I think it's just one, and it's 1989, and it's at 18, I believe.
00:28:23
Speaker
So just marinate on that, that Taylor Swift's 1989 is at 18 on the, on Apple music's rating of best albums, 100 best albums of all time, 1989, 18 Madonna's like a prayer album and an actual album that came out in 1989.
00:28:39
Speaker
Is that 77 or 76 somewhere on there and I don't even like I'm fine with Taylor being on there. Yeah, but I I'm glad that it's 1989. I think that that's her best album. I think that that is Taylor's best album.
00:28:54
Speaker
to date. Not that her other arms aren't good, but I think that that is her most solid body of work. Yeah. And, but back to Jagged Little Pill, you know what's above Jagged Little Pill? What? 1989. Yeah. You know what's above Jagged Little Pill? Billie Eilish. Okay. Okay. Okay. So a question, because we're talking about these like big pop moments that changed the game, right? So Lady Gaga was our example before. Do you think that 1989 did that?
00:29:24
Speaker
Change the game. Absolutely not. Yeah. I don't either. I don't think Taylor Swift. Okay. Swifties. This is where the Swifties we're going to start receiving death threats. Taylor Swift has yet to do anything influential. I think musically as far as like.
00:29:41
Speaker
I think commercially in the way that she markets herself, that's a conversation for sure, right? Because no one's selling 2.8 million albums in the first week of release. But sonically, I've not seen her influence on anyone, personally. And I think that she plays it extremely safe with her sound.
00:30:01
Speaker
That's not me dissing her. I love Taylor Swift. I was laughing the other day because I was like, I'm not a Swiftie. I like her music, but I'm not a Swiftie. But then I knew all of these like random facts about her. And I was like, maybe I am a Swiftie. But the thing I'm just being honest, you know, which I think a lot of Swifties aren't honest with themselves. And the fact is that she is she plays it very safe with her sound. And that's fine. Yeah.
00:30:27
Speaker
But I've never heard her, I think the most experimental thing that she's done is reputation and that even that is still playing it very safe for her fan base. Yeah. Although my favorite Taylor song is a deep cut on reputation. So can I guess what it is? Yeah. Yeah. It's a deep cut on reputation. Let's see. Wouldn't even call it a popular deep cut. Okay. Interesting. So it's not king of my heart.
00:30:56
Speaker
Okay. Is it? I don't, I don't like twinkly fairy tale, girly pop, uh, Taylor. It doesn't do anything. It does nothing for me. I'm so sorry, but I see. I'm like, make me twinkle mama. Um, like, like, like getaway car. People love. I'm just like, I can't listen to that song. It's unlistenable to me. Oh, interesting. Okay. Um, is it dress? Nope. Okay. What is it? It's so it goes.
00:31:21
Speaker
Interesting. Oh, my God. I think I think it's actually really interesting. Is that the song where the beat is similar? There's like a there's like a drum effect that sounds similar to a piece of me. There is a there is a song on reputation that has a just the drum beat. Not the song does not sound like piece of me. Yeah. But there is a beat that has
00:31:49
Speaker
Oh, my God, it's going to drive me nuts. I'm going to have to look it up after the after recording. Yeah, we'll revisit this because I'm not it's not clicking from my brain and like immediately. Yeah. But you know what I'm talking about? It's almost kind of like that, like it's kind of like a glass breaking slash maybe like a little like electronic zappy. OK, I mean, like I know I couldn't even go that high. I was like,
00:32:16
Speaker
But removing Taylor from this conversation, because I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, for I think Jagged Little Pill changed the conversation and the fabric of music. Because I feel like Jagged Little Pill allowed for particularly women to, without having to be fronting a band, I think as solo artists to be angry.
00:32:42
Speaker
Um, and to be like deeply expressive again, not that they didn't have that, you know, the sixties and seventies, like, I definitely think there was a lot of that that was present, but, um, I feel like.
00:32:54
Speaker
the 80s it wasn't really happening as much you know we were getting a lot of like ballads and good pop music and stuff like that but um i think like women were like fucking pissed again um visibly pissed again and uh i think that changed the conversation another album that i think like really changed the conversation and this is a big is this pop music or is this not pop music is shania twain's come on over
00:33:19
Speaker
Oh, my gosh, that's a great example because that album truly. And I think a lot of the albums that we're talking about fuse a lot of genres together to create these pop songs and come on over as a great example of using, you know, pop hooks with country and rock. Yeah. And even a little bit of dance, if you if you will. Yeah. To create this new type of country music. Yeah. Because is man, I feel like a woman, a country song.
00:33:48
Speaker
Right. Is it a pop song? I don't know rock song. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Is it a is it a big band song? Yeah, because like because there's instrumentation in there, right? Like so I think about some of those things that really kind of change the narrative and push the genres. And, you know, I I just I
Genre Blending in Pop Evolution
00:34:10
Speaker
don't know. And I think I think like there's other examples of that, too. Like I think Destiny's Child did that with like
00:34:17
Speaker
being an answer to a very like, cause like girl groups in the nineties were, you know, you think about like Spice Girls and then you think about like TLC, right? And TLC was very much in the R&B genre, even though they're also doing pop music, right? But like, I feel like once we hit kind of peak Destiny's child era, like Survivor, it was a very different conversation again.
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Absolutely. Especially with like, yeah, I think survivor is a great example of that because you kind of saw Dustin each child's first album be very R&B writings on the wall, very R&B still, but you started hearing a little bit more pop with like the same spirit. Yeah. Dark child. Yeah. And then survivor really married those two worlds where like the pop hooks pop production.
00:35:07
Speaker
happy face. That song is just a pop. That's another song where I like I haven't listened to that song forever. But like, I am now picture like hearing it in my head. And I'm like, that is a pop song. That is that sugary, bubbly, twinkly, as you mentioned, pop song. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what comes to my mind is like, when I hear the phrase pop song or pop music,
00:35:34
Speaker
Instantly into my brain, it comes kind of goes to those sugary twinkly, you know, wake me up before you go, go as another guy. Um, just those like really like happy, fun, go lucky songs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like fantasy Mariah Carey, right?
00:35:51
Speaker
That is like a quintessential like perfect pop song. And then a remix with ODB and it's like, oh, this is an R&B, you know what I mean? This is an R&B song. Right. Is it? Is it not? Exactly. What exactly is this? And what's interesting about Mariah is I didn't I don't think any of us really realized how revolutionary it was at the time for her to be collaborating and remixing her songs the way that she did. Yeah.
00:36:18
Speaker
we all just kind of took it for granted. But like, there was really no one doing it like her and really no one that has done it like her since like house remixes to popular songs that charted on the you know, like, like, she like going back into the studio, remixing it with the producer, re singing the vocals, fully redoing it, and sometimes doing it three or four times. I mean, I still believe had
00:36:43
Speaker
two hip-hop remixes and two house mixes with different vocal takes. Incredible. Like when will your faves, you know? Yeah. Like it's wild. And what people don't realize is like the reason why Mariah is
00:36:58
Speaker
anger toward like JLo is that Tommy Mottola just did that exact formula with JLo just like literally copy and paste because JLo redid those you know and had the remix album with fully reworked songs but no one was at the time was connecting that that was a play from Mariah's playbook.
00:37:18
Speaker
Right. You know, which is why she was always so infuriated about about JLo. And this isn't even JLo hate because she was just there, you know. But yeah, you know who also, though, did a lot of reworkings of one of her early singles is Robin, actually all of her first album. Show Me Love. And you've got that something. Both had, again, three or four at least different remixes with different vocal takes. I didn't know that.
00:37:46
Speaker
Yeah, those are harder to find because they're not on streaming. Yeah, you can find them on YouTube. But like, there's like these, I think three different R&B remixes of show me love, all with different vocal takes. And then I think also believe that there's a house remix with a different vocal take as well. Yeah. And yeah, which is Yeah, that's so interesting.
00:38:08
Speaker
I miss, I miss that. Me too.
Remix Culture and Album Reworks
00:38:10
Speaker
Another really fun thing that I, that I feel like doesn't happen anymore is whenever there's an album version and then they fully like rework it, remix it, tweak the vocals, do whatever for the single release. Oh, Samantha Mumba's, um, baby come on over is like the, is like a perfect example of that. Um, Chris Angular is what a girl wants. Come on over. Yes. Yes. If there was a song called come on over, they were like, we're going to remix it for the radio.
00:38:37
Speaker
Absolutely. Like those those three examples just off the top of my head, like I had so many versions and then but thank God they did what they did with Samantha Mumba's because that album version is rough. Mm hmm. That when she's going.
00:38:57
Speaker
Samantha, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the pod to explain this to us. Yeah. We, we, we know it was not your fault. They didn't, they were not utilizing your beautiful voice the way that they should have. And then whenever they brightened up the vocals and had her doing those riffs and those belts, I was like this transformed this song.
00:39:14
Speaker
Isn't that interesting? Like, it makes me wonder back in the day, like what was going through record labels heads and being like, yeah, we're going to fund this album. You're going to record these songs. And then they release said album with said songs. And then it's like, you know what? This isn't good enough. Yeah, we're going to we're going to invest more money, record it and then release it as a single.
00:39:38
Speaker
It's no idea. It's really wild to think about. And there was so much money back then because they could just do that. They could just do that. They could do all the time. Jewel is another great example. A lot of her songs were single like remixes for radio. Yeah. You were meant for me has so many versions.
00:39:56
Speaker
Or there is her song, This Way, from the album, This Way. That radio remix was produced by John Shanks, who famously produced Come Clean by Heather Duff. Completely transformed the song famously.
00:40:15
Speaker
completely transformed the song, but that was the case with a lot of jewels. Almost every single she's released, I think, got a special radio remix where she rerecorded the vocals, reproduced the song. Yeah. Foolish Games, I think, has a couple versions. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Jupiter, Swallow the Moon.
00:40:35
Speaker
a song that people don't talk about enough. They don't even know it. On the last episode that came out, I talked about Matthew Ralston, who directed the music video for Enbogues, whatever. He directed that music video. I remember watching, making the video on MTV, where they made the video for Jupiter Swallow the Moon. Yeah. But completely different song from the album version. Yeah. Same lyrics, but completely different melody. Yeah.
00:41:04
Speaker
And a VH1 top 20 countdown darling, that song was. Darling, oh my god. And I remember the video and like the cool Hughes, like the, ah yeah, it was so good. It's beautiful, I mean he is such, his music video is from that era, between like 1999 to 2001. What else did he do? He did, or actually to like 2004, because he also did Chris and Emilion's Dip It Low. He did Mandy Moore's In My Pocket.
00:41:31
Speaker
Oh, another song we don't talk about. We don't. In fact, the entire Mandy Moore album talk about OK, going back to pop music and what the fuck is pop music?
00:41:44
Speaker
The Mandy Moore album, self-titled album, which is album number three from Mandy. You have a song like In My Pocket and One-Sided Love, which are very much Middle Eastern inspired dance-pop bangers. Appropriate eight. Yes, we love it. Appropriate eight and served. Yes.
00:42:03
Speaker
Produced by Emilio Estefan, so thank you Emilio. And also Saturate Me, I believe is another one that he produced, another Middle Eastern sounding song. But then you also had songs like Cry and Crush, which are very much like the pop rock inspired. Not rock, but like had the more acoustic, soft pop rock, adult contemporary. You had R&B with You Remind Me.
00:42:28
Speaker
You had, um, almost like an electronica tinge styling of split chick. Yeah. I miss just eccentric eclectic albums. Me too. You know, who does it really good these days? Who? Reina Sawayama. Oh, well, she's, she is taking everything that she loved about that time period. And I think refining the things that weren't so great about them. Yeah.
00:42:56
Speaker
100% and it's not always a hit for me, but I mean like you have a song like imagining. Do you know that song? Oh my god. Do I know that song? It is. It like assaults my ears, but in the best way, but I love that she appreciates like new metal as well because that's a part of me. Is it? It's a part of my fabric. Absolutely. I grew up in Arkansas, honey.
00:43:19
Speaker
We were kids. It was like country music and like that, like the kids that just were so over school were listening to like Limp Bizkit and, you know, trapped. And like that was just that was a big part of it. But I loved all of that music. But a lot of those songs that were popular and like hit the mainstream were because they had a really catchy hook. Yep.
00:43:45
Speaker
And they were popular music. Mm hmm. So there's a case. So you're saying that you did it all for the nookie. So you can take that cookie and stick it up your.
00:43:57
Speaker
Take it up your way! Take it up your yah! Yeah. Let me tell you what, my brother was very much a limp biscuit, offspring, corn. Yeah. He was that part of Tiro. And I was very much the in-sync Britney, Christina, and I still am today. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:16
Speaker
I'm both. I'm definitely more pop, but like if I had a Kinsey scale, I would definitely say I'm like a four. You know what I mean?
Nostalgia and Pop Music Hooks
00:44:22
Speaker
I love that. Oh my God. That's so perfect. I mean, I do have a soft spot for a little like Limp Biscuit. Like if something was to come on, it would take me back. You know? Hooba Stank? Fuck it up. Oh my God. Hooba Stank. But you know what? Speaking of Limp Biscuit, I still wish that I want to hear the song that he worked on with Brittany.
00:44:41
Speaker
It will never happen. I will. We will never, ever, ever see that. We'll never see the light of day for the listeners out there. Fred Durst did produce allegedly a song for Brittany for the in the zone album, maybe even two songs. I don't remember if it was one or two. And I believe there's even interview footage somewhere where he's talking about the studio session.
00:45:05
Speaker
Well, I need to find that because I've never seen any interview. I am. I am like 90 percent sure it's either him or Brittany talking about it in the studio. I don't think together. But someone's going to need the fact check this. But I. When I heard that, I was like, I need to know what that sounded like, because, you know, Brittany loves a rock moment in her music. Yes. Do something. That's a great. That's a great sort of like rock Brittany moment.
00:45:34
Speaker
Rock Brittany. I love Rock Brittany. You've got Rockboy. Rock me in. Mm hmm. Uh, don't keep me waiting. Yeah. Oh, that's a great example. Don't keep me waiting. Thank you, Ronnie Jerkins.
00:45:52
Speaker
What did she say? What's the bridge? It's like, it's not it's just saying you let me break the ice. She's no she's like, um, what what the hell? No, what the hell? Yeah, I'm coming outside. Yeah, I'm coming outside. Is that what she says? I think so. Oh, my God. Don't keep me waiting. That's that's a banger. I think that the bonus tracks on femme fatale are like top tier.
00:46:19
Speaker
I agree femme fatale. I also think circus. I think, I think the bonus tracks on circus are also top tier. Yeah. Quicksand amnesia amnesia.
00:46:30
Speaker
Again, all of these songs sound so different. They do. Production wise, sonically, they are all so different. And that's why, that's why like the conversation of pop music, like what is pop? You know, people kind of always look at me like, what do you mean? But I'm like, no, like if you really dive into it, like, of course you all know the songs, you know, that by these pop stars, they're kind of famously known for, right? You've got,
00:46:54
Speaker
toxic, you know, Brittany is a great example with toxic and baby one more time and upset it again. And I'm a slave for you. But even those songs, oops, I did it again and baby one more time. Sound very similar. Yes. But I'm a slave for you and toxic and, uh, till the world ends. Give me more, give me more, give me more is weird.
00:47:14
Speaker
It's so weird. And so especially at the time that it came out. Yeah, very weird, very haunting, like spooky vocals in the background. If you never like listen to some of the background vocals on Blackout, like they're spooky. Yeah, spooky. Yeah, just like it's spooky, ooky. Blackout is a spooky, ooky album. It is. Yeah. Brittany is a spooky girl. She's a spooky girl. And that is I would say Blackout best listened to around Halloween time.
00:47:41
Speaker
Yeah. You want an experience? You want to conjure a witch that's been haunting your property? Let me tell you what you put on freak show. Make it a freak show. Yeah. She she invented dubstep with that song. She did. I mean, I'm sorry. She just did. She did. And there it's it's in the Bible. Yeah. Mm hmm. The pop Bible. Yeah. It is. It is blackout. The Bible is the black out the album that people coined the phrase pop Bible about.
00:48:11
Speaker
People say that about it all the time. Yeah. And I want to say that that's where it stemmed from, is that people were talking about blackout as the pop Bible. If it did, great. Do you agree?
00:48:25
Speaker
I think now that we are so many years out from it, I think that it, I understand why it was so influential because sometimes I don't know if I'm just like dumb, but you know, when people are like, say like, this album was so influential for this, this, this, and this, and then I'm like, I don't hear how it was always. I've even talked about albums that were influential on this episode, so I'm contradicting myself.
00:48:52
Speaker
Um, I didn't, I didn't like hear it at first, but then I think like, well, what else was coming out like blackout at that time? It really was out of its time. It was, but then I'm going to get on the conversation about how dignity by Hillary Duff was out of its time too, but we don't need to get into that.
00:49:09
Speaker
But you know what, though, it it really was, especially with like, again, because I'm such a songwriter, producer, like I like seeing who worked on an album and being the remix girl that I am, Richard Vision was a producer on the dignity album. Richard Vision famously worked with a lot of Madonna remixes. Yeah. And really gave that kind of electronic dance element to a lot of the songs on that album.
00:49:36
Speaker
And people, you know, want to kind of roll their eyes at Hilary Duff and be like, Oh, she's just
00:49:42
Speaker
Yeah, some pop girl, but like to have those decisions being made and to be like, I want to work with that artist in this musician or this DJ or whatever, that's really fucking cool to step out of the box. It's very punk rock of her. I'm just saying, just saying, but then like punk rock, you know, anyway, my genres. I mean, I'm going to make a tick tock calling dignity a punk rock album, and I'm going to get destroyed.
00:50:10
Speaker
Do it. I should do it. That would be so funny because people get so triggered on there. They do. They really do. I love seeing your tiktoks and like reading the comments. Actually, I'm not on tiktok a ton. It's like I'm not really either anymore. When I go on there, like I go to your account specifically and I like just go if I want to feel something and get fired up, like I just go to your comment section. People have so many opinions about anything that I say.
00:50:38
Speaker
anything. You'll make an opinion about some song or Britney Spears or whatever, and people will act like you are speaking on some sort of crazy issue that's happening in the world. And then I get the people who are like, there are important things happening in the world. Why are you talking about this? And I'm just like, Oh, my God, that person that that's the person I get the most. Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
And like, sure, like I don't feel as inspired to make content right now, um, for a number of reasons, but you know, there's always something terrible happening in the world. I think that people should be informed and know what's going on and not be fully detached and living in Stan Twitter or whatever. Um, but we should be able to do multiple things at once. Anyway, I digress.
00:51:21
Speaker
Absolutely. When you say Stan Twitter, every time you say Stan Twitter, anytime I get into a fight or see a comment, an unhinged comment from someone much like that person that was commenting on your TikTok or whatever, I immediately think of those two kids and I don't remember their names from Stan Twitter, the one who was like, Stan Twitter, come to my house.
00:51:42
Speaker
And then the one actually flew from LA to Phoenix to his house and it was like, and it was like, fuck Dua Lipa. Nicki Minaj is the queen of rap and whatever. Do you know what I'm talking about? I've never heard of this in my entire life. Oh my god, Jesse, I'm going to send this to you later. It's
00:51:58
Speaker
fucking crazy long story short, there is a kid. Okay. And when I say kid, these people, they're maybe that you, you could tell me that they were 16. I would believe you. You could tell me that they were 25. I'd believe you. That's where the age range that they, you know, but one was like presenting his house on Twitter. And then one saw the address, took a flight from LA, I believe to Phoenix, showed up at his house and was recording videos outside. And then the police showed up.
00:52:28
Speaker
That's where someone made an edit because they were chasing him with a flashlight and so someone made an edit from the Ariana Grande, The Light is Coming music video to that. It was insane. So all I'm trying to say is I picture these people as these people who leave these types of comments. I have to remind myself that this is who I am talking to.
Pop Culture Perception vs. Reality
00:52:50
Speaker
And you know what, you know what, since you love Madonna, I'm going to say this thing too. Yeah. When I went to Madonna's concert in Dallas, which I had a great time and you know, if you want to check out my podcast list or my recap, it was like a whirlwind weekend of all of these crazy things that happened.
00:53:05
Speaker
I need to just really tell everyone, do yourself a favor and listen to this podcast. I still actually still need to listen to your episode, but seeing your posts about it, the story is incredible. The story is incredible. You should listen to the whole thing just to see the string of events that occurred. It was a wild weekend.
00:53:27
Speaker
But I will say that going to the Madonna concert and seeing all the different types of people that were there because I don't do a lot of stadium shows anymore unless it's like a legacy artist that I like really need to see before you know they're like
00:53:41
Speaker
not able to tour anymore. Just because I just really like more of the experience where I can be closer to them. But I saw all these different types of people. And not that I necessarily needed this reminder, because I feel like I'm pretty grounded when it comes to the internet. But the microcosm of stand internet pop culture discourse is not reality. Right. It's not reality at all.
00:54:08
Speaker
it's not reality because if you would pick any artist that people have strong feelings about and just read what people say on the internet,
00:54:21
Speaker
it would make you think a certain way. And then you go to their show and you're like, oh, never mind. This is a reality. Exactly. Never fucking mind. Yeah. Like in going to I've seen two Janet shows, too, and seeing the like the type of people that go there, like the diversity of the crowd. Like it was so great. And I mean diversity in a lot of different ways, like age, you know, race, gender, like whatever sexual orientation, like in so many ways, like how
00:54:48
Speaker
like those two artists were just as an example and how much that has had that lasting impact, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, two artists, Madonna and Janet, who truly have...
00:55:03
Speaker
defined and then redefined what pop music is over and over again, talking about like, you know, experimenting for decades, experimenting with different sounds, creating albums that do not sound like one another. People love to talk about diverse, like, you know, the range, you know, people love to say the range that an artist has. And very rarely do I see people talk about Madonna.
00:55:27
Speaker
in this day and age in terms of that. And I'm like, no, she like invented that. Like, she is the pop star that went from, you know, the bubblegum pop of, you know, like a virgin and true blue into the more funk inspired R&B inspired of like a prayer. And then you had the house and hip hop of erotica and the R&B of bedtime stories and the electronica of ray of light. I mean, it could go on and on. Yeah. And
00:55:53
Speaker
But you know, people don't say that in places like Stan culture on the internet, right? Right, right. But you know, I'm sure those conversations are still being had among like reasonable humans. I would hope.
00:56:08
Speaker
There's a lot of people who don't see, and this was interesting, right? It's like, how are people brought up? And, you know, you and I were both brought up with it sounding like a very eclectic style, you know, collective of music and whatnot, both from what we are receiving from the radio and MTV and whatnot at the time, but just what our parents and siblings were also bringing to us.
00:56:30
Speaker
And I feel like there's a lot of people who don't get that. No, for sure. I forget that there's a lot of people out there who are very much the casual music listener, the casual fan. That part. Yeah. Who will put on the radio and that's about it. Yeah, they're not, I don't know, unwell in the head. They're just like, fine, get some music. Yeah, I know. My boyfriend tells me all the time, like, he's like, you just consume music so differently than me.
00:56:58
Speaker
He's not a person who just like puts on whatever and doesn't care about it. Like he's invested, but like the things that he cares about in music are different than the things that I care about in music at times. Not always. What does he care about? Well, he, like in terms of like, so I'm like lyrics in production are like big things for me often. Unlike he just, he loves the vocals. Like he, he like, like Tori Kelly is someone that he loves.
00:57:24
Speaker
He loves Victoria Monet too. He actually got me more into her than I even was. And I don't know, he really appreciates someone who does something with their voice.
00:57:39
Speaker
okay specifically so he loves a vocal he loves a vocal moment and will he then like will he be quick to maybe i don't want to say pass but like if someone isn't a vocalist per se will he be quick to like be like no thanks no because like
00:57:57
Speaker
I would say, let's just use Kylie as an example. My Kylie fandom is newer, which I think I talked about the last time I was here. But when I've really been deep diving over the past however many years, he enjoys a lot of it too. He loves her disco album.
00:58:17
Speaker
Okay, love. And Kylie has a really unique, maybe one of the most unique voices in pop music. Well, she's like, she has one of those sopranos that's just like almost, almost too much. Like if it was, if it was, if her voice was like slightly different, it wouldn't be good to me, but it's just because it's right where it is. Yeah, but she's capable of also doing so much. It still blows my mind that she does the opera vocals in You're Just Gonna Eat You. Yeah.
00:58:46
Speaker
Like when I learned that that was her, I was like, oh, yeah, we have a different conversation happening. And I love I love when people post clips of it. I know in the crowd. I love the crowd reaction to it because they're waiting for it. They're way they need it. I think I told you that she did it acapella at the concert that I went to in 2009. It's like it's like about it.
00:59:05
Speaker
It's so fucking good. And it wasn't even on the set list. It was a song that there was a technical glitch. And so she was just killing time. Yeah. And I will never forget goosebumps, like just thinking about it. It was so fucking cool. She, you know, again, another artist where she's done so different done so many different stylings throughout her career with, you know, her music pop music. Is this a segue, Zach?
00:59:34
Speaker
This might
Celebrating Pop Icons: Kylie Minogue
00:59:35
Speaker
be a little segue. I mean mama mama has you know the the day that this is released we have to celebrate Kylie. Kylie is it is her birthday today we have to celebrate her and you know we end every episode with a song that we don't talk about enough.
00:59:52
Speaker
I mean, I'm feeling celebratory and feel like maybe both of us can share maybe two songs of Kylie's that we don't talk about enough because she's the birthday queen and we have to celebrate her in a delicious way. So Jesse, the time has come. Do you have two Kylie Minogue songs that we do not talk about enough? Can I do one and then you do one? Absolutely. I want to popcorn it. Yeah, we want to popcorn it. We want to be a little versatile with it.
01:00:21
Speaker
Because I really want to I really want to hit you hard. I was I was putting this up. I really want to hit you hard. I think I already know what you're going to say if I saw this single cover. You did. Oh, my God. So give it to me. So skirt down. But this might be the left hook for you. I'm picking the extended mix. Thank God. Because that's not my typical. I'm usually just like a purist like I like.
01:00:48
Speaker
I like the song where it is, you know, how it was cut down. But now I'm going to say the extended mix because I think some of the other remixes are out of my territory of things that I enjoy. But I felt like the extended mix was like...
01:01:06
Speaker
It was the, um, like the Goldilocks moment for me. It was like just right. Yeah. Just right. Yeah. Cause I felt like skirt like itself was fun. Great. Um, but I like, I wanted more.
01:01:18
Speaker
It's a weird song. Yeah. The structure of the song is very strange, which I love. Yeah. It's not your, again, talk about it like a pop song. I mean, that is a very EDM inspired track. Dubstep influences that is, and the structure is not your typical verse course structure. Um, but that is an excellent song.
01:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, so but because of your your vast knowledge more than me, too, where does the song live in the Kylie verse? You know what I mean? Yeah, that song was a buzz single release. I believe that she had just signed to Rock Nation. OK. Flop signing. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry, Jay. Flop Nation. Treat your artists with respect. Just never never seems to do it right. It was a right.
01:02:09
Speaker
And it was a precursor to the Kiss Me Once album. Yeah. And so I believe it was released the year prior as a little teaser. Got it.
01:02:20
Speaker
I don't think really got an official music video. It's more like a visualizer type of style video gag. Yeah. The song deserved more. Um, so yeah, it was it was a club single, but I love it. I think it's a very fun song. Great song to work out to. In fact, you just inspired me to put that on my playlist to work out to tomorrow. The extended mix is on my workout playlist.
01:02:45
Speaker
love and actually I love when you said extended mix that the other ones don't do it for you. I was like in my head I was like GTA remix found dead. I love the GTA remix personally but I mean who am I? Who am I? You are you and that is exactly who I want you to be. Thank you. Thank you.
01:03:04
Speaker
Well, in a similar fashion, my first pick for songs we don't talk about enough for Kylie Minogue, I'm going to go with Where Has the Love Gone? Roach Motel remix.
01:03:17
Speaker
Um, I was like, okay. And then you said, I was the Kombucha girl meme. Exactly. And then you were like, Roach. And I was like, Oh, it's from the hits plus compilation. Um, for me, that mix, it's, it's not necessarily a remix per se. I think it's just an alternate mix of the song that they called the Roach Motel mix. I'll give it a spin. I'm not familiar with it.
01:03:39
Speaker
Nine minutes. So, you know, I love, I love a good length and size queen, size queen very famously. And, um, but the song is very sexy. It's like a sexy house beat. And I just love the, where has love gone? Where's the love? Where's love? It's fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:02
Speaker
Okay, what is different about the Roach Hotel? Roach, another Roach, another Roach. Does that mix? What does it add that's different than the original song?
01:04:20
Speaker
I would say it more like takes away. I would say it's a little, I don't know if I would say stripped back, but it's darker. I would say it's okay. It gives it a darker take. I do like when Kylie gets a little grimier. Yeah. Which is why I love impossible princess so much. Yeah. I would say it's a little darker and a little grimier. That's a great way to put it. I love that. Yeah, it's fun.
01:04:44
Speaker
I felt like Put On Put On was a little bit of a red herring for me for the album because it felt like a little it felt a little grimier as you know grimy for Kitely, right? Yeah, which is probably the same amount of grime that I would enjoy as well. So I was like, this is perfect for me because I'm so I'm just so vanilla and like innocent and you're so innocent. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely angelic. Yeah. And so I was like, OK, this feels like
01:05:12
Speaker
this feels like a little different, you know, and then the rest of my like, I love the tension. But the rest of the album, there's some there's some songs I really like, but it felt it felt like really shimmery again, which is fine because that's what she does so well.
01:05:25
Speaker
And I think that that's what, you know, I, I personally loved the tension album, but I, I think that, yeah, I don't like it when albums are a little bit misleading with its lead singles. So Padam Padam and tension were both very club heavy electro inspired tracks. Yeah. And then the rest of the album was a little bit more on the pop shimmery disco synth pop styling. And so. Yeah. But I, you know, I think that she got the message because there are rumors on the streets that she's working on a deluxe.
01:05:55
Speaker
that, and it sounds like Lost Boy is involved again, who produced Param Param, Joel Corey, she was seen in the studio with him, and I love Joel Corey. Joel Corey, there's a song that he did called What Would You Do with Bryson Tiller and David Guetta. Okay. That is phenomenal. Phenomenal song. One of my favorite songs. I forget if it came out in 2022 or 2023, but it was one of my favorite songs.
01:06:20
Speaker
I'm intrigued. Please send to me. I will. And Bryson Teller, I believe, is a rapper for the most part, but he sings on the song. What's that? Sounds phenomenal. Yeah, no, it's an incredible song. Sorry. Anyway, I digress. No, please. I love learning. You are an encyclopedia of knowledge.
01:06:40
Speaker
It's wild, yeah. It's like, oh, this is why I'm doing this. Because I was like, what the hell else am I going to do with this knowledge? Yeah. I get it. I think the same way. I got to regurgitate it somehow. But now I'm being edged. What's your second Kylie pic? OK. I maybe cheated a little bit. OK. That's OK. Sometimes cheating is OK. Yeah. When it comes to this? Absolutely. When it comes to this? OK. I picked right here right now.
01:07:10
Speaker
That's not cheating, and that's a great answer. I mean, it's a feature, technically, so, you know. Technically, yeah, but it's, but, but, you know, it's, I mean, the song is hers, I would say. Like, it's like a feature. I mean, it's Giorgio Moroder featuring Kylie Minogue. Yeah. Should have been a much bigger hit than what it was. That album was...
01:07:30
Speaker
beautiful perfection. I loved it. We got Britney Spears doing Tom Steiner, like mixing so many things that I care about. But yeah, I think that song is perfect. It has that sheen and that shimmer of pop that isn't too cheesy, but it's not trying to be cool. I think it strikes such a nice balance. I think her vocals are incredible.
01:08:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's very like Aphrodite of her, which is a top album for me personally should be if Apple Music knows what it's doing. Hello. But I I love that song. I just like it's it's it's so listenable to me. Like it is so easy to go back and it's still I mean, you know that it's not a new song, but it feels so fresh to me always. And it's it gets revisited a lot in this household.
01:08:30
Speaker
good as it should when I used to mix music that I put that on so I made like a fit mix like an hour long fit mix of Kylie Minogue and I used right here right now and I mixed that into I think it went from I'm just here from the for the music into right here right now and then into the chemical brothers remix of slow. Okay. And yeah, it was very fun. Is there a right here right now remix that you enjoy?
01:08:56
Speaker
I believe that it did get some remixes. Honestly, none of that, I don't remember any of them. So I'm gonna say that at least at the time that they were released, they didn't flick my bean in the right way. So. And just a quick note, I love when she goes so high and yeah, I do that in the car and I will scream.
01:09:22
Speaker
scream and then cream. Yes. Mm hmm. Mostly because I lost control of any of my body after screaming that much. And I love the in the B was like the whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. It's like, oh, well, the data data data. Yeah, it's so.
01:09:39
Speaker
cute. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, Oh, but that is, that's a great selection. Thank you. You should be really proud of yourself. I feel like I picked two good ones. You really did. Okay. I'm not trying to, I had two in my head that there's there that I think that
01:09:57
Speaker
but then I fucking ended you. I swept the floor with your head. Yeah, no, I get it. You really did. You really did. There's two. There's one that's a B side that I really love. And then actually both are B sides that I'm saying this. Um, I'm going to say, I'm going to switch my thing. What? Last minute.
01:10:15
Speaker
There is a B side from the light years album, a song called cover me in kisses. Okay, that is a fantastic song. I forget what single it was a B side for it might have been on a night like this. But it is like a
01:10:32
Speaker
I would say it's like a sister song to Kukuchu. Okay. Are you familiar with Kukuchu? Yeah. And so I would say that they're sisters and Cover Me in Kisses it's kind of like got that like big band drum and bass feel. Okay. If that's like a great if that's a good depiction of how it sounds like it's got this like really fun like almost breakbeat style but then it's got the horns
01:10:54
Speaker
And it's just kind of like that ba da ba, but like kind of just like moment. It's very fun. Okay. Very, very fun. Very. I will be educating myself in listening. Yeah. And it's, and it's just, it's a song that I really don't hear anyone talking about enough.
01:11:11
Speaker
And I feel like a lot of people, maybe like yourself, don't even know that it exists in this world. And so it's time to cover yourself in kisses. Yeah. Guilty. With Ms. Minogue. And what a name, too, by the way. Kylie Minogue is such a fucking name. It's so kind. I used to think for a really long time in my early fandom years, I thought it was Minogue.
Production Connections in Pop Music
01:11:36
Speaker
I thought that the G was silent. Oh, no, I like I like the G.
01:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, so it took me a minute to get used to it. Just because of the way my brain works, too. I have to tell you, on a night like this, I think it's spiritually related to Be With You by Enrique Iglesias. Well, yeah, they're both produced by the Metro production team. Yeah, they're just like, they're soul sisters.
01:12:01
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, my God. Seriously, that like that Metro production guitar sting and there's early works. There's nothing. Oh, my God. See, I've been in I've been on a Europop dance moment. I mean, what am I not? I was like, but but I know I'm like, I'm like groundbreaking. I've never been done before. Never been done before. Never the same shit on it. Vama on it.
01:12:31
Speaker
No, but I truly have been diving down. This is now, I think, my third time mentioning Gina G on this podcast. You talked about her a lot on the last episode. Name another person talking about Gina G as much as I have in the year 2024. Get her on the show. I would. I'm not kidding. You should deal with her. I don't think that she has any active social media accounts. I can't find her on Instagram, and her Twitter was the last active in 2011.
01:12:59
Speaker
So what we're going to do is we're going to do some live sleuthing. Carry on with what you were saying about Gina G, but I'm going to find out. So I learned that her fresh album is the first time that Metro, so I believe that's Mark Taylor is his name.
01:13:14
Speaker
uh produced like a big album big quote-unquote but um that was like his first like kind of big break and then that's what kind of led to believe there's a lot of songs on that album with this song called tiamo where dj john michael famously said uh tiamo walked so that dubai lamore could run um there's a song called give me some love that is very much yeah it's very just that that classic metro early like late 90s early 2000s style so we like
01:13:44
Speaker
Be with you. Yeah. Great example. Believe. Yeah. I have a website where you can book Gene and G. OK. What's this website? I'm going to send it to you. OK. It's her management. I found it. Her. Well, her album Fresh is getting re-released on vinyl, I believe, like like any day now. Like there's like an anniversary edition. What? This is meant to be. I I just sent you this page. And even if this isn't where you need to go,
01:14:14
Speaker
Um, it's going to take you where you need to be truly. So I used to, I used to like book artists when I worked at a university to like come do concerts or like comedians and stuff like that. And you just start emailing people and eventually you'll get where you need to be. I promise
Fun Anecdotes and Conspiracy Theories
01:14:30
Speaker
you. Oh my God. Having lunch with Eric Andre in Norman, Oklahoma and stuff like that. Is that what you, is that what you did? Yeah. I drove him from the airport to do a comedy show and we, he was like, I'm hungry. So I was like, okay. So we stopped for lunch and he bought me a salad.
01:14:43
Speaker
Oh my God. That's so nice. Oh my God. You're so skinny. I know I'm so skinny. And Carmen, pop duo Carmen, drove them from the airport. Cheerio. Yes. Can I tell you? Tell me. Their manager was a nightmare hellish, horrible wench of a person.
01:15:05
Speaker
I made a TikTok about it one time and last year whenever I got into a tussle with all of the Britney Spears AI conspiracy curlies, they tried to say that I was a paid actor talking about Britney Spears because I didn't go with the narrative that she's a robot or whatever or dead. And so I had posted a TikTok about my Carmen experience. Well, Carmen was on the same label as someone else and blah, blah, blah anyway. And so the AI conspiracy Britney curlies tried to say that
01:15:35
Speaker
I was employed by Lou Taylor, Brittany's conservator, um, because of the label connection of Carmen. And I was like, y'all did not realize that I was a grad student. I drove her from the, I drove them from the airport. I wasn't working for the label. They're so stupid. I would love to have the time that these people have on their hands to do that type of sleuthing, quote unquote, to try to make those dots that don't exist. Bad sleuthing, bad sleuthing. I've never worked for a record label.
01:16:01
Speaker
Right, God, you wish. I wish, I wish. No, I actually don't. Scary, spooky. Spooky, spooky, but maybe the music industry would be better. Maybe. Never. If you and I were employed. Never. Before we wrap up, can I actually pick a bone with you? Yes, please pick my bone.
01:16:18
Speaker
you know i had a lot of feelings about songs you didn't know in 1997 and i'm not i'm not going to read the full comprehensive list um that would be so funny bonus content it's the patreon exclusive exactly i just read a list of everything that i hate about what you didn't know about some song in 1997 um yeah
01:16:37
Speaker
No, no, no. But there is a song that you didn't talk about. I don't know if you know it or not, but you don't talk about it. So I have to ask you about it because it's actually like a song we don't talk about enough that was really kind of groundbreaking for the time. What was it? It is. Are you ready? Jock jams? No. OK, but jock jams is like one of the things that got me interested in dancing because my sister would play it and she would take me in her room and she would play jock jams. I love that.
01:17:05
Speaker
Um, but no, this is a song called your woman by
Exploring Unique Songs and Samples
01:17:10
Speaker
white town. Are you familiar with this? No. Okay. So this song is really interesting because it's essentially, it's about the situation where this person is in love with someone who is, I think,
01:17:31
Speaker
They are this is a cis male that is in love with another man. OK. And the lyrics are, I could never be your woman. Oh, and this is like 1997. And it's like it's got themes about like sexuality and gender. And it has a really cool like vocal effect on it as well. And is this a country song? No, no, no, no.
01:18:01
Speaker
I don't know, I think you said White Town, I immediately think of White Town. It's kind of like electronic pop, but it has this really interesting instrumentation. And Dua Lipa sampled it for Love Again.
01:18:18
Speaker
Oh, interesting. Okay, I'm gonna have to check this out. I've, I've never heard of this song. And that's what was funny about 1997. My friend Jill and I we were talking about this big talking this big game about how much we love music from 1997. And then we go through the year end chart of that year. And we were like, we don't know how through. No, there were several things I didn't know as well. So I'm a hypocrite. But that song like for you, I think you should know that song.
01:18:40
Speaker
OK, I should. And there's a lot of songs on that list, too, where I'm like, I bet you if I heard it, I'd be like, oh, yeah, obviously. Yeah. But there are like artists that like I just never that we just not talked about in my household. Yeah, sure. Now that was it. That's an obscure one. And I think it went over people's heads. But you know, I love again where it's like, you got me love like that is what is sampled from your woman.
01:19:08
Speaker
But it's slower in your woman and it's like way more prominent. It's like a huge part of the song. OK, is that I think I want to say that that piece is a sample from something else. It might be, but that that was I heard it and I was like, oh, that's OK. The song that I. Yeah.
01:19:28
Speaker
I can't, there's so much to discover. That's what I love about music. There's so much to discover. So much to discover. Oh my God. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for helping me unpack what the fuck pop music is. Exactly. Shut the fuck up, Jesse. Stop talking. No, I need Jesse to talk more and like be on. Yeah, you're gonna, I'm gonna force you to be on again soon. So. I'm ready. You're doing the thing where like,
01:19:56
Speaker
You know, when, um, uh, fucking Kelly Ripa was looking for, uh, the, the host for live with, live with Kelly and she had like a million different dudes, like all the time. Exactly. Everyone's interviewing. Yes. You're Kelly Ripa. Yeah. Everyone is interviewing. You can cut that out if you need to. No, I'm keeping it all in, giving it all in. Um, but Jesse, thank you so much for joining. We love you so much. Everyone have a magical night and I'll talk to you all soon. Bye.