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Queen Mother, Madonna, We Luh Ya!
312 Plays9 months ago
This week we welcome back an official two-time friend of the pod, DJ John Michael from Peloton! With the intention of talking all things Madonna -- we uncover the moments that officially turned us into Madonna stans as well as talk about her impact in music and her advocacy with the LGBTQ+ community. But as how conversation goes amongst friends we also discuss Beyoncé's COWBOY CARTER, Katy Perry's "Walking On Air," Britney Spears' "Stronger" and even throw in some Janet Jackson and Gloria Estefan for good measure.
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Transcript
Reunion and Pop Culture Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to pop theory. It is Zach Rickle, aka a functioning gay and today we are joined by DJ john Michael from Peloton again. Hello, round two. Oh my gosh, truly offended the pod now.
00:00:13
Speaker
Officially. Officially. It's a second date. I'm excited. It really is a second date. I'm so excited, too.
Pet Shop Boys, Madonna, and Music Rumors
00:00:19
Speaker
So I know that we kind of spoke beforehand and I'm excited to get into our queen. But one thing I wanted to ask your opinion about right before we get started is that about maybe an hour ago, I was just checking my phone and on Popcrave, Neil from the Pet Shop Boys. Did you see this? I just saw it and I actually screenshotted a different part of the interview. I haven't seen the whole interview.
00:00:43
Speaker
I have not seen the whole interview. I just saw the one tidbit that I saw on Popcrave regarding Taylor Swift. What was the other part that you got? So I guess whoever, I don't know who's the interview with. Let me see, Seth Abramovich over the Hollywood Reporter. OK, they said to Neil, I know you went to Madonna's Greatest Hits Tour recently. See how this ties in. Over the years, I've heard different Madonna rumors about the Pet Shop Boys. One was that the 1987 song Heart, which features Ian McKellen as Dracula in the music video, was written for her. Is that true?
00:01:13
Speaker
And Neil says, no, he's like, we wrote Heart and we thought it would be great for her, but we didn't send it to her. But we mentioned it in an interview and people often mention that. OK. Then they said the other rumor is that the Madonna album that became Hard Candy, that the Pet Shop Boys were supposed to produce that album. And he said, true, well, not true. He's like, we were asked by Madonna's manager, who was ironically now our manager, Angela Becker. And she said Madonna wants to know if you've got any tracks that she could work with. This was the period where we were asked to simultaneously
00:01:43
Speaker
right from Madonna and Kylie Minogue, and out of it came nothing for either of them. Kylie, we wrote a whole bunch of songs for, which I thought were pretty good, and I don't even know if Kylie ever heard them, to be honest, because she's never, ever mentioned them. As for Madonna, they phoned back and said, forget about that, Madonna's gonna make an R&B album. So we did write some stuff, but it was never sent to her.
00:02:01
Speaker
Oh, wow. Crazy. That is not Madonna Mythbusters. Also, like I just have to say like, what I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, what a weird period of time for them to be working with both of them. Right. Because I feel like at least here in the US, Pet Shop Boys have not been a thing for a while. No, they have a cult following for sure. But it's not like not a mainstream thing by any means.
00:02:27
Speaker
Right, yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, they did do the remix for Sorry. Right, and that's, yeah.
Impact of Digital Consumption on Music
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah, but did you see his comment about Taylor Swift? I did, and you know, like, I always, I groan when I see things like that because I'm like, the first thing you know, like, I don't even read the comments on these things because I'm like, people are just gonna attack him because he's an old man. Right, yeah. And it's gonna be, the ageism is gonna be the first line of defense for them. Of course. But it's like, do I understand what he's saying?
00:02:55
Speaker
I mean, I think that part of it, like when you say, you know, what's for Billie Jean, that to me, it's like, you might be a little bit out of touch because like, I don't know if people are going to have those types of moments anymore in pop music. Right. You know, like with streaming and digital being what it is, like the idea of having a phenomenon like the Thriller album was or Billie Jean or like anything like that. Like, I don't know if songs really do that.
00:03:23
Speaker
I feel like that faded over the years because like, think about, okay, it's always a good example. I always say Despacito. That one year, you couldn't go anywhere, anywhere in a car, in a CVS, at the club, in anywhere that song was playing. I have not heard it.
00:03:43
Speaker
in years. And it was the biggest thing ever and now nothing because the sheer volume I feel of music that comes out now, I just don't know that it lends itself to being like where somebody's going to have a Billie Jean moment anymore. Right. And it also too, just like I feel like
00:04:00
Speaker
I feel like Billie Jean, it's not my favorite Michael Jackson song by any stretch, but it really did. The thing is that it was so new at the time. The sounds that were being created in the 80s and even in the 90s were still so new and so fresh. They had really never been done before. Technology was being developed
00:04:19
Speaker
as time was going on. So when something is new and fresh and original and then has impacted, I mean that song has, I mean just structurally, the sound of it all has been recreated over and over again, sampled over and over again.
00:04:36
Speaker
So that's that's but I think that you hit it right on the nose with streaming streaming
Capitalism and Music Industry Trends
00:04:41
Speaker
and the and the social media of it all the way that we are now like everything so algorithmic and the way that everything is so niche like it's not you don't listen we don't listen to things as a collective much anymore. No, and there's also like the the term vanity metrics is a real thing. Like I hear it at work.
00:05:00
Speaker
What is vanity metrics? And I think these things, when I see like, I think Spotify did a post where it was like, Taylor's tortured, whatever, tortured poets department is the most pre-saved song in Spotify history. And I'm like, that doesn't really mean anything in the real world, though.
00:05:19
Speaker
Right like it's not like okay like it's cool. It's a it's a great thing And it's it's definitely an achievement not trying to minimize it right, but it's a weird vanity metric It's like it's something vanity metrics to me are things that would go in advertising in marketing Yeah, you so like if you're talking about an album you would say this has this many streams This has this many creations on tick-tock this has this many whatever like those those are kind of like a little bit of vanity metrics like the real streams Spotify Apple music Deezer Amazon, whatever
00:05:49
Speaker
Those are people listening to the song, but it's just, I don't know. Capitalism tends to find a way to make things that aren't a thing, a thing in the music industry, you know what I mean? For sure. Okay. Because I feel like it's even how they handle anniversaries now.
00:06:06
Speaker
Right. One year later, we have a brand new vinyl pressing and I'm like, really? For one year? Right. I know people are like, happy third anniversary for so and so. I was just like, okay, this is getting a little extreme. The label is going to be celebrating, was it Billie Eilish's five-year anniversary for the first album is this year? No way. Five years? Wait, where do we go? When we go. Or when we fall asleep. That's it.
00:06:34
Speaker
Where do we go when we go quiet? I don't know. Right. Exactly. Beyonce, Lemonade. Speaking of anniversaries, what was that, eight years ago now? Eight years. Right. But so it's like I was talking to one of my label reps recently and I was asking because it seems like a lot of the majors have what they call a catalog department and then they have like the top line, like the front line, like whatever the priorities now are currently. Yeah. I don't know if it's the same for every record label. It probably isn't, but she was saying that
00:07:02
Speaker
when they're working a record, they pretty much have like 18 months with the record to do whatever they can with it, whether it's partnerships, deals, sync opportunities and commercials, whatever, anything that the label can think of to merchandise that record. They've got about 18 months and then it goes to catalog.
00:07:20
Speaker
Wow. And then catalog takes it and then it's like it's on them and then they have whatever and then they can do anniversaries and different things and pressings and that's how that sort of happens. Oh, interesting. 18 months. Wow, we really are living a different time. I am.
Artist Pressures and Release Strategies
00:07:34
Speaker
I'm immediately thinking I like go back to Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation album and how that album span was what, two and a half, three years at least like it went from 1989 to 1991.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah. And they like rolled out singles. Rolled. I mean, single after single. I mean, seven official singles with State of the World being an eighth radio airplay only single. Like that is just kind of on. I guess it's it's it's just kind of done in reverse. Like people really singles now. Yeah. And then release the album, you know, five, six singles deep. And maybe we'll release one more single as the album's coming out. And oh, yeah. And then that's it. Because it's it feels so anticlimactic for me, but.
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, and it seems to happen so fast. We had Sophie Tucker come by Peloton recently at HQ and they did a listening session for their new album. It's great. You're going to love it. I just love them. But I was like, why aren't you just here? Didn't we just do this with the last album? How long ago was that? Two years ago? One year ago? I don't even know. I don't know. The constant chase is maddening.
00:08:42
Speaker
I can't imagine because especially being signed to a major record label, I can't imagine the pressure of being like, churn out another single, give me another single, give me another single. Well, but again, speaking to that, you know, the collective consciousness, it's like, you know,
00:08:56
Speaker
We don't remember songs after a few years and it's like, oh my God, you don't hear Despacito. You don't hear these massive, massive, like when was the last time I've casually been out and about and heard Old Town Road? I couldn't tell you. Truly. Right. I could not tell you. And that was literally the biggest thing on the planet for a while. The longest running number one single in American history.
00:09:17
Speaker
That's insanity to me. And like I should be hearing that. And when I'm shopping for greeting cards at Walgreens, you know what I mean? Exactly. Right. Right. Oh, my gosh. But that's I think this is the one of the byproducts of the streaming era. Yeah, for sure. And and I was thinking about that in terms of what Neil was saying about Taylor Swift, because, you know, people were kind of mad at me because I have to say I still have not fully listened to the tortured parts. No, I girl, I I did. I did the first half and I was like, I need a break.
00:09:46
Speaker
need a break. And then I tried. I'm gonna try to muster up the courage and the strength to listen to it this week. My coworker is furious at me. I didn't even get to the Kim Kardashian song. Right? Yeah, right. I didn't even get that. I just Yeah, but um, but I was thinking about Taylor and I was like, she definitely has had some huge hits and beyond what the one that people keep going to in terms of like her Billie Jean quote unquote is shake
Madonna's Cultural Impact and Legacy
00:10:12
Speaker
it off. Yeah, yeah.
00:10:13
Speaker
Um, but I was like, in recent years, I was like, she's had obvious hits. I would say her, her biggest, most recent actual hit was antihero. I mean, antihero was number one for eight weeks. I truly did hear that wherever I went and still do. Like I still hear it on the radio or from at the gym or in the grocery store or whatever. Um, but then you have her songs like cardigan and Willow where I'm like, yes, they were technically number one singles, but I never have heard them on the radio ever.
00:10:41
Speaker
never have heard them out and about. I've never heard anyone other than a Swifty bring them up. Which is true to a lot of artists too. No, absolutely. It's not unique to her.
00:10:53
Speaker
Yeah, I used the example of Takachi 6ix9ine and that Nicki Minaj song, Trolls or whatever. A number one single. Couldn't tell you how it goes. Right. Look, everything when it comes to music is so relative. I always tell people who let the dogs out was nominated for a Grammy. There is no telling what you know. Right. What Grammy? I want to say it was either best dance recording or best
00:11:23
Speaker
I don't even know. I don't remember. Because I was doing research for work one day, and I found that out. And I was like, what? Grammy nominated Bahaman. Right. And I think also, well, I mean, the thong song. Oh my gosh, yeah. Grammy nominated. Wow. Right. The song song. Sisko, who I just watched on The Masked Singer. Don't want to spoil anything for anybody out there.
00:11:42
Speaker
OK, OK, Cisco. It still sounds great. Good. Does he still still move? He was one of my gay awakenings for me, like sexual awakenings. Like I remember being like a closeted young preteen kid, watching him in like the wild, wild West music video. Yes. Oh, my gosh. And I was just like, who is this delicious man? Him and Usher. Right. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of that. But no, it's it's it's really wild.
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I speaking of like the anniversary of it all, we have I on this podcast have not been able to uncover some solid ground with the, in my opinion, the biggest female artist of all time. I mean, let's be honest. She I mean, she laid the blueprint for the girls. She did. She did.
00:12:34
Speaker
And I mean, we had an anniversary for Ray of Light recently. Hard candy. We just had an anniversary for Like a Prayer. 35th anniversary. 35. We are talking about the Queen of Pop Madonna. And I know that you share a huge love of Madonna. Would you say that she's your favorite artist?
00:12:56
Speaker
Um, I would say she's probably the most present throughout all of my life. I would say that at the top spot is usually a wrestle probably between her and Cher. Cher tends to win out for me because I've had very weird moments with her music in very pivotal times in my life randomly and not even like just like completely by chance. Like they've never been anything intentional. Like I was never,
00:13:21
Speaker
I didn't grow up like a huge Cher fan. It just sort of happened as I was getting into my teenage years. But yeah, I mean, Madonna, I mean, ever since I can remember, like I have vivid memories of my mother bringing home from when she went out with my sister to the mall, bringing me the blue 45 for True Blue. Oh my God. Best day in my childhood. Best day in my childhood. Wow, that is amazing. And just sitting up in my room and listening to it over and over. That was my longest running favorite Madonna song for a very long time.
00:13:50
Speaker
the song True Blue. Yeah, obsessed. I love the album. But that was yeah, that was it for me. Yeah, was that the was that the song that like kind of turned you on to Madonna? Um, I don't know if it was the first I don't know if I could remember that. But that's the first thing that sticks out that feels tangible where I'm like,
00:14:07
Speaker
Maybe I had other Madonna records, I don't know, but that one, and I think because it was Blue Wax too, which really wasn't a time when you were having 17 vinyl variants, you know, whatever, like you had the standard black and that was it.
00:14:22
Speaker
So having that was like a big deal. And then the B side for that was a song that wasn't even on the album. It was Ain't No Big Deal. Ain't No Big Deal. That's right. Yeah. And I was like so like an unreleased song. What does that mean? Oh my gosh. I'm so exclusive. I'm the only person with this song. Meanwhile in Staten Island, I have the secret. That's right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But that was probably the first big one that I can recall.
00:14:47
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. So for me, so my memory. So I actually have two memories with Madonna. My initial introduction to her was I was very young. It was 1989. It was Cherish released as a single in 89 or 90. I think 80. No, 90 was Vogue. So I wasn't 90 Vogue or was 89.
00:15:11
Speaker
So I know that like a prayer the album was released in 89 and then like that went five singles deep into 1990. Right. So that's probably yeah, it's probably 1990 something. Yeah, somewhere in 90. So I was about four years old. And I was obsessed with mermaids, a little mermaid had just come out. Yeah.
00:15:31
Speaker
and was obsessed with mermaids. And my dad was like, Zach, look, there's mermaids on the TV. And I remember like being a four year old watching this black and white video of this woman frolicking around a beach with mermaids. And I was just like, just like obsessed. No idea who she was. I couldn't tell you what I did. I had no idea what a music video was. It was for right. I was just like, Oh my God. Mermaids just basically like creamy myself as a four year old.
00:15:56
Speaker
Then flash forward to 1998, I had gotten really my dad was a huge music person. Like I was surrounded by music. I remember him playing Michael Jackson a ton when we were kids. He loved like Aerosmith and loved like big 80s rock and things like that. But he was really eclectic, too. I mean, Queen was huge in my house. And so I kind of got my obsession with music from him.
00:16:26
Speaker
I've never seen anyone with a bigger CD collection in my life. Like he had thousands of CDs, thousands upon thousands. Yeah, it was really fun to kind of just kind of go through and just see everything that he had. And so he. Yeah, so so the year prior in 1997, that was kind of the year that kind of switched for me, where I suddenly became that obsessive with music, like I'd always enjoyed it. But then that's where I remember Hanson's and Bob had come out. And I was and that's really what kind of did it for me. I was I was like, Oh, my God.
00:16:57
Speaker
But then my taste quickly started evolving and I remember getting into Janet and Mariah and then I remember in 1998, I remember watching MTV and all of a sudden I remember them teasing the Frozen video. And also at the time I was about 12 years old. I was also very into mythical creatures and all these things I love to draw.
00:17:19
Speaker
So I remember like her like the mystical like witchy vibe that she was given the cloth and I was just like drawn. I was like, what is this? And just being obsessed. And then I remember the music video premiered. I remember actually leading up to the video, they were doing a Madonna fan. Oh, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. And they and so then that's where I was like, oh, my gosh, the Cherish video. That's right. Right. Suddenly, I was like, whoa.
00:17:45
Speaker
And then the song came out. I remember being like, wow, this is not only is this visual incredible, but the song is incredible. I remember buying the CD single. I think I got the album Ray of Light for my birthday and then the rest is history. And you were just done. Just done. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think
00:18:06
Speaker
Borderline is usually the one that I go back to the most. And I feel like that when I heard that song as much as I love True Blue, but when I when I really heard Borderline, I feel like that was when I was I was like, whatever you want. I got it. I'll figure this out. Like I just love every I just loved everything about her. I mean, and it's it's.
00:18:24
Speaker
It's so crazy and I feel like the unfortunate thing when you have a career like Madonna's is that, and she said it herself too, that they won't appreciate her until she's gone, is that I feel like with her being so big and so still in the current zeitgeist of things, especially with the tour,
00:18:42
Speaker
It's very difficult to examine the vastness of the catalog, of the career, of everything that she's done in this country, in this country, whatever. It's a crazy thing to have such a global footprint. And I feel like that won't really happen until she's no longer here when people start to really dive deep.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yes, I completely agree. And that's something that I really try to explain to people. I'm like, this is a time because people these days, it's really strange to people who are not much younger than us kind of fail to realize that like streaming hasn't always been the thing streaming the way we stream now.
00:19:19
Speaker
Is not even 10 years right in the making like I remember back It was like less than 10 years ago when like Adele was like withholding her album from Spotify and things like that You know, they're like this or and Taylor Swift didn't have her catalog on Spotify like this was not that long ago and This is during a time where you had to physically go to the record store to buy the records by the CDs by the cassettes you
00:19:46
Speaker
She was a global, it is a global phenomenon, and it was truly, people are always like, well, Cher came first, and all these other people came first, and yes. And she definitely did. Don't get me wrong. Cher's the first woman to show her bare belly button on television. Wild.
00:20:07
Speaker
Right, which is crazy to think that out loud. Like, I'm just like, how is that not that long ago? You know, right, right. But so it's like there are certain things like she got because she got a lot of flack, especially throughout the 70s, when she's even said in interviews that she was able to get away with it because she was married to Sunny, but that the things that she used to be able to get away with when she was when it was the Sunny and Cher show, and then when it just became the Cher show post divorce.
00:20:33
Speaker
that the censors were on her for a bunch of different, she couldn't do it as an unmarried woman, so to speak. And that it was very controversial for her to have all of these crazy outfits and whatever, whatever her and Bob Mackey were doing. But Madonna pushed buttons in a very, very different way, culturally, musically, with the people she worked with, the type of music, the subject matter. That's the other level that, you know. And it was, yeah.
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, I was gonna say, I think Cher was more like a shock factor throughout the years, especially with her body, but I feel like musically Madonna went there in a different way.
00:21:08
Speaker
She went there in a different way and was, for whatever reason, able to be commercially successful in a huge way. Whereas Cher, and this is no shade to Cher, but Cher is famous for having these really extreme highs and then extremely low lows for the first 30, 40 years of her career. It really wasn't until believed that Cher was finally kind of solidified as an icon.
00:21:31
Speaker
and didn't have to live up to the commercial success standards that, you know, they put on artists for years and years and years and decades and decades and decades. And even that, it's like, you know, but I remember that the biggest thing when Believe was becoming the juggernaut that it was, was everybody was like, and she's 55 years old and has a number one song. She's 55 years and I'm like, since she's 55 years old, like, that's not old. Like, what are you talking about? Right. Right.
00:21:56
Speaker
they did to Madonna during hung up too absolutely you know really did and they and they still do it to her i mean Madonna Madonna really is i mean she has been the one who started i and me growing up with her like not really realizing i knew that she was a trendsetter
00:22:14
Speaker
And I, you know, idolized her for that, but I didn't really realize the things that she did that really hadn't there has been uncharted waters. Right. Pop star aging in the public eye, you know, being and people love to sit there and say that she's not relevant anymore. But I'm like the fact that you're even talking about her makes her relevant. Like she is a part of the conversation and will always be part of the conversation.
00:22:39
Speaker
she'll always be part of the conversation because the effect when you have gotten to that big. And again, I'm also very, I'm not one of these crazy Madonna fans because I feel like, you know, there's a lot of us out there that are like very big stands of her and like kind of go over the edge and don't really have a lot of reality checks with her. I mean, look, and I'm, you know, when we get to the Hey You's and the Imagine cover and like, well, I'm like, I'm a realist. But it's, yeah, I don't know. Like you just, you, you,
00:23:07
Speaker
She did things not just because it was controversial, but it was like, no, this would be better for society. So you know what? You're all going to come with me because you're listening. And it just wasn't like she didn't care. And she did it because it was in her. Now I feel like it's the opposite way around where it's like everybody gets these enormous platforms because of brand coaching, media image,
Celebrity Social Commentary Expectations
00:23:30
Speaker
and all this other stuff. And then it's like, well, how come you're not saying anything about this big issue? And it's like,
00:23:35
Speaker
Most of these people are just been like they've been propped up by labels and like other like stylists and different things behind. And it's like, yeah, you know, it's a different type of of game now. And I think that expecting all of these sort of celebrities, pop stars, whatever to act alike is very weird. Right. Right. You know, I completely agree. And I think it's also really weird to do the fact that we put this weird I don't want to say pressure because like being a celebrity of that caliber
00:24:04
Speaker
you know, I think there's an insane amount of privilege that you must have to be there. But at the same time, it's like, why are we looking, I'll use Ice Spice as an example. Why do we look to Ice Spice to speak on all of these social political issues? Not saying people are pining down her door, but they probably will eventually, especially come election season. And
00:24:26
Speaker
It's like, why are we doing that? Look, don't get me wrong. I'm fully aware that when you have a platform, you should use it for good if you can. I'm not trying to be blind to that by any means, because especially as somebody like myself, I go to protests. I try to post things. I do whatever. You're really good about it. Yeah, you walk the walk. Yeah, and I try, but it's like,
00:24:48
Speaker
I've also seen what happens when you force either, not even just celebrities, but people in general in any position of power to force them to say something and how bad that can go. Because if you're not informed, I don't know that I want you to speak on this. I would rather you not. I would rather you actually
00:25:05
Speaker
Be quiet and maybe learn so that way you can, but don't like, because I think that you get a lot of that. I mean, Madonna, don't shut up so we know where she stands. I know I'm pretty much on anything, but like I hear it about Beyonce all the time with it. How come she's not saying this? And I'm like, y'all have bullied this woman her entire career for the way that she talks, for the way that she dresses, for everything. And then now you're just like, well, why aren't you saying anything? And it's like, well, you know,
00:25:30
Speaker
They're just people. They're just at the end of the day. Yeah. And I love with that Beyonce, she lets her art speak for herself. Right. She like if you actually listen to her lyrics and you see, well, she needs to release the visuals in order for us to see we buy it out here. We're literally dying. And but I mean, you know, you see in her art, you hear in her lyrics, you see it in her
00:25:57
Speaker
her concerts, you have to pay attention though. If you're going to sit there and be like single ladies, then you clearly haven't paid attention to Beyonce. And you know what else is crazy? I have to say about Beyonce specifically, and I don't know if there's really many other artists that I
00:26:13
Speaker
feel this way with and I'm thinking about it. I feel like everything before the four album, it's like a completely different Beyonce that I really don't even partake in that much. Yes. It's just like this is the radio pop girl and I get it and I love it at the club and it's great for the workout and I totally get it.
00:26:34
Speaker
It's such a clear line that I'm like, it's hard for me to look back at like some of the more cheesier stuff like, baby boy, I don't ever need to hear that song again, no offense. Yep, I completely agree. It's fine, but like it's just never one that I reach for. Like the ones that I'll go back to is like Naughty Girl, I love Naughty Girl forever. Yeah.
00:26:53
Speaker
It's I don't know. I just don't like and even like with Madonna like most of the times her biggest songs are not my favorite. It's always the stupid little random ones like the ballads that nobody likes.
Madonna's Advocacy and AIDS Awareness
00:27:06
Speaker
You're like the look of love again. Right. Right. But very that. Yes. Oh my God.
00:27:15
Speaker
And so to go back to the like, you know, informing and educating and speaking up for something, I mean, Madonna, I think one of the reasons that you and I love her so much is her advocacy for the gay community, the LGBTQ community. And what people don't really recognize and understand is that she did it in a time where it was not socially acceptable, was not considered cool, was essentially, from my understanding,
00:27:41
Speaker
Considered career suicide. Oh a hundred percent and this is I think that was the the big thing me as a gay man in my 40s Seeing the whole live to tell bit at the show, you know for anybody out there who is listening who may not know it like she's got a lot of like screens come down and it's like pictures of people that have been lost to the AIDS crisis and it's you know, especially the ones that were very close to her and I think that part of
00:28:07
Speaker
what people don't necessarily get about Madonna. And I totally understand it. Again, I don't expect everybody to be as insane of a fan as I or you maybe. But because I've talked to other DJs from like the what I call the first generation DJs that were at the Sane at Large, like the original gate clubs that were here in New York City. I'm still friendly with some of these guys who are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever. And when they talk about
00:28:31
Speaker
what that was like at the time and how they were losing people. Like, I actually can't fathom that level of, like, I don't know. So it's like she was there through all of this, like, and saw such a devastating time and really just like said, OK, I have this. I'm going to use this celebrity to fight for these people who have been the ones that have been holding me up. But it I don't know. It's just it's it's it's hard to
00:29:01
Speaker
make people understand the magnitude of that and what that really was like at that time. Really, how many times, you think about the Like a Prayer album, 35 years, I posted on my story and I'm like, when they scented the CDs and records to smell like patchouli oil and there was a whole thing inside about the warnings against the AIDS virus.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah. And it's like safe sex practices, right? Right. Right. Right. Like they did it. Salt and Peppa did it on their very necessary album. They had a bit on that. Like, but they really was. I can't think of many other people who were doing that. Reba, Reba McIntyre had a song about it. Uh huh.
00:29:36
Speaker
I think his name was John, I think is the name of the song. It was a song about, but it's about a straight couple, but it's about a woman that contracts the virus, whatever. Anyway, I don't wanna make this episode a downer, but I'm like, as we dissect this whole thing. But to see that and to see somebody still fighting, so now you say this is four decades of a career and people are like, oh, she seems mean, she seems angry. You know what? I would be too.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah. I would be too. And you look at interviews and the way they've spoken to her, the way these men have spoken to this woman for 40 years, I'd be mad too. I would be absolutely furious. I mean, one of the interviews, I mean, the one where she's talking about the justify my love video and the way that the interviewer is speaking to her as if she committed a crime on television. Right.
00:30:26
Speaker
And in today's world, that music video, oh my gosh, it's like a Disney movie. It's a Disney movie. It's so crazy. It's nuts. You're just like, whoa, this is what caused controversy. Right. And one thing that I just would I love, there's an interview where she was promoting Truth or Dare, and someone had asked her about what her thoughts were about.
00:30:49
Speaker
you know, showcasing her dance or sexuality and going to a pride parade and things like that. If she was worried about her fans in the middle of America or something like that. And she was like, no, I'm not worried. She's like, I'm presenting life to people. Yes. And that's something that I always say in reference to people. I'm like, I'm like, whether you want these things to happen or exist or you want someone to be gay or trans or straight or whatever, like every all of this stuff exists in life, whether you want it to or not.
00:31:19
Speaker
And that's the thing with Madonna. And I think that there's so many misguided narratives, unfortunately, on social media, because a lot of people talk about appropriation and exploiting and things like that. And I, I'm not saying that she is absolved of those critiques. But I do think a lot of it is misguided. Yeah, based on the time that it was because again, too, I have to say that
00:31:44
Speaker
Madonna is, you know, watching her concert tours and the dancers that were on stage with her. And I think the blonde ambition is a great example. The girly shows a great example. Seeing a diverse cast of dancers that played a huge part in the shows, not just dancing behind her,
00:32:02
Speaker
Like I thought that that was normal. Right. I thought that was normal. And now with all this conversation, you know, as I'm entered into college years, decades later, and because I was a late bloomer at college and, um, but like, like, you know, going through, you know, some of these, uh,
00:32:20
Speaker
social justice classes and things like that and learning about how whitewashed media was for so long. Oh, yeah. Reflecting back on like what I watched. And I was like, I was almost oblivious to some of this, like whitewashing that people were talking about, because I was like, the people I paid attention to were Madonna, Janet Jackson, right, did have a diverse cast of people, not only with skin colors and ethnicities, but then also sexualities. Yeah, yeah.
00:32:45
Speaker
And it was so, so to me, it was just so normal. Well, and that's why it's like, it makes me laugh because I posted about this in my story recently, too.
LGBTQ Representation in Culture
00:32:53
Speaker
It's like the cover of a Culture Club album recently. And I was like, I cannot believe that I grew up in a time that was like so naive to not think that Boy George was anything but a homosexual.
00:33:06
Speaker
right and like the shock of when that came out and I'm like I don't are you headless like do you just not have senses like I don't even under like how did we live collectively in a time right like that's so beyond to me like and even George Michael like I look back now and I'm like sir ma'am ma'am miss Michael come on
00:33:29
Speaker
That is wild. I would say one or two. Just a few. Subtle ones, subtle signs. But it's exactly what Madonna said. It's like these things exist in the world.
00:33:46
Speaker
if you want to be blind to it, that's up to you. And maybe a lot of people can because you know what, even when we travel, what I noticed when we travel to like really random parts of the country, I could totally see if you're growing up in these areas where you're just not having any type of experience. I've had it even in my work career where it's like, I'm the first gay person that somebody may have met. That's wild to me, but it's like, again, that's why representation matters and why it seems so scary to some people.
00:34:15
Speaker
So scary. And that's one thing that I talk about at my work all the time during, in my day job is that, is that I'm actually going through some leadership training right now. And that's something that I brought up recently. I was like being like one of the only openly LGBTQ people and obviously openly LGBTQ people. I was like, sometimes when I walk through some of our branches, I was like, I met with resistance and yes, I get it. I'm a camera person. For those of you that don't know what I do, I am a videographer by day. And I, so yes, I understand that like,
00:34:45
Speaker
having the camera in my hand can be kind of scary for some people. And I understand that. But I was like, it's also because of who I am as a person. And when I'm going to these more rural areas, I was like, I'm not stupid. This isn't my first rodeo. And I know exactly what's going on. Like, like you don't have to. And that's the thing. You don't have to say anything.
00:35:03
Speaker
Right, right, right. You know, we're smarter than that. And so, yeah, I just have to applaud her for continuously doing it. And yeah, I continuously doing it and like I'm still finding a way to make it part of her art. It's not even just that she's outspoken. It's like it's in the art. Like and I think that's what that's the other thing that I'm learning as I get older, too, is that, you know, like all of the stuff that happens online and I know you deal with this running your account, but it's like
00:35:33
Speaker
All of that noise does not exist as soon as I put my phone down. So it's like, in the real world, people don't talk to me like they talk to people online.
00:35:44
Speaker
Right. To sit down and actually have like a normal conversation. So it's like, I think that a lot of the Stan discussion that happens online, I don't really ever see that play out in the real world. I'm never in a place where somebody's like, ah, Madonna, like that doesn't really happen to me. Maybe it does happen to people. I'm sure it does. But I don't really hear that. But I see it online all the time. And I'm like,
00:36:05
Speaker
Yeah, I am I unfortunate I like I'll hear straight men like if I bring her if I bring her up They're like, oh, she's still making music and I'm like, uh Like we were taking a car back to the Las Vegas Airport the last time that we were there and I was it was just some random man that picked us up and Brian and I were talking in the backseat and I was saying something about Madonna, whatever and
00:36:27
Speaker
And the driver, who was a straight man, was just like, oh, he's like Madonna. He's like, what do you think is what's happening with how she looks, like her face? And I was just like, what about her face?
00:36:37
Speaker
Say more, say more. Like Brian could see like the fumes coming up from underneath my shirt. And I'm like, I'm like, she's a 65 year old woman. Please say more about how good you're going to look when you're 65. I would like to talk about it. Please, please, please tell me all about it. Absolutely. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And I like backed him into a corner a little bit. And I'm just like, I don't think that we should do this. I don't think that we should talk about any woman's face. She's going to do whatever she wants
Madonna's Enduring Art and Criticism
00:37:00
Speaker
to do.
00:37:00
Speaker
Exactly, and the real talk, she's damned if she doesn't, damned if she doesn't. If she didn't do whatever work she's had done to her face, which...
00:37:11
Speaker
hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people do all the time. You would be dragging her for being old. It's never going to be good enough for you. And it's not her fault that we live in a culture where men, as we age, we are considered distinguished. You can't sign all those things. And then the second a woman gets gray hair, it's ew, gross. It's over. It's so stupid. And again, at the end of the,
00:37:39
Speaker
At the end of the day, when she is no longer here, when any of these people, you know what's going to survive the art, not the conversation.
00:37:46
Speaker
Right. You know, so it's like I try to keep that too because I've definitely got into heated fights about Madonna. But like, I'm like, I have to like temper myself sometimes because I'm like, you know what? Yeah, it's fine. Because I have a 20 year old nephew and like he knows who Madonna is, but he doesn't really know her music outside of like big things that you would hear out and about like he's not really aware. And why would he be? Sure. That's why when I talk when people talk about the younger generation, they don't even respect their elders and they don't respect whatever. And I'm like, let me tell you something, the elders don't respect the ones coming up behind them either. So whatever. Yeah.
00:38:16
Speaker
The Neil thing today from Pet Shop Boys is like, you know, again, why are you throwing your hat in the ring with the Taylor Swift fans? You should know better. Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. Exactly. You know, I felt like I had to be so careful how I talked about I was so nervous making those stories on my Instagram. Right. Oh, my gosh. I think I was very surprised, though, at how many Swifties kind of reached out and were like, you know what? I feel the same. I just don't think that this is the best one.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I had a lot of people say that too. There was definitely the Swifties who were like, whatever. That's fine. But I did see a lot of honest reactions of like, yeah, it's not my favorite. But also real talk, the album's been out less than a week still. We're recording this on April 25th. It has not been a full week yet.
00:39:05
Speaker
And that's one thing that I think that for myself, I think that I want to stop doing is, you know, I've run a meme account. So obviously people kind of expect it now to get a reaction. So I will definitely do that. But like to truly give like a I don't even know if I would call it a review, but like, you know, to give a true like you can't ingest a two hour album and give a real review in less than 24 hours. I'm still finding things on Cowboy Carter.
00:39:33
Speaker
same like still finding them where I was just I was listening to I don't even know what song it was but I was in my car the other night driving and I was like what was that what was the hold on yeah yeah 100% and I will say for Taylor I like fortnight
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's really, it's a very pretty song and the line, I love you, it's ruining my life, kills me.
Taylor Swift's Artistic Evolution
00:39:57
Speaker
Like the way that she does it and that whole bit, like I'm here for it. I actually really like that song. And, and the music video. Music video is great. Wait, post Malone without tattoos on his face. I was like, hello. Hi, sir. I was like, I'll follow you up to locker room with that. Right, right. I've got a Fortnite.
00:40:17
Speaker
You know? All right. She's not the only one with a Fortnite. I've got them too. That's right. That's right. Let's go baby. Yeah. He looked real good. Yeah, he did. He did. Yeah. No, the video was really great. She's becoming a really great video director. Yeah. Like when she first started with the, like, I think it was like, was it the man that was like her first self-directed video by herself? I was like,
00:40:41
Speaker
It's cute, it's good. But yeah, and she's good. I mean, when I saw Karma, when I saw the Karma video, I was like, oh, she's Joseph Conning now. And even Lavender Hayes was a great video too. Yes.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no, she's, she's, she's, she's doing the Lord's work and you know what, congratulations Taylor, you're about to hit some astronomical numbers. Right. I'm very curious what the final numbers are going to be. Right. Um, but you know what though, like, and, and, and I think that that's also like part of the other discussion that pits these artists against one another because it, you know, when you get into,
00:41:19
Speaker
an argument with either a Swiftie or a Madonna fan or whatever, and then they start like, well, you know, she did this on her opening day, and this was a flop, and this was, and I'm like, we throw the word flop around, I think, a little bit too liberally. You know, because they're just like, Dua Lipa's songs are flopping right now, and I'm like, are they flopping? I was like, I don't know if they're flopping. I was like, that feels like a little too extreme for me. Because I think that when you are in the game, as long as a Madonna is, as long as a Cher is,
00:41:47
Speaker
what your version of success is changes. And I think that, while I don't think that she's unaware of the things that people say about her by any means, I just really don't get the impression that she cares or has cared in a long time. Madame X alone was like, the label let her do all that, you know what I mean? And then that tour, and it was,
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, you know, for being someone 40 years in the game, like to do something such a left turn. Mm hmm. I don't know. I think it's it's it's kind of it's what I hope for any major artists like I hope that you have a career like Madonna's I hope that you have something that's as expansive and allows you to create every
00:42:30
Speaker
get it all out of you. Exactly. And I think that the thing that I am starting to notice more and more too, because people will always like, we'll talk about charts and first week sales and streams and things like that. And I think that those are measures of success and I think they're important to recognize, but they're not the end all be all the same, the same way with awards, right? Grammys, you know, billboard awards, whatever. Like those are nice measures of successes and definitely help, but it's, it's, it's,
00:42:59
Speaker
about the entire picture. And something with Madonna is that, yes, and I think that that's really the beauty with her is that it's this perfect blend of commercial success, touring success, but also cultural success, like impacting culture and being a trendsetter. And I mean, you know, there's been jokes about this with Madam X and like the typewriter of it all. Oh, God. And Tortured Poets department. Right.
00:43:27
Speaker
But I will say, like, you know, we do see that, though. It's like you do see Madonna, even her flop eras, quote unquote, doing things. And then five, six years later, you start seeing, you know, little bits and pieces here and there. And then you're like, well, wait a minute. You said that she was a flop. I know I'm not saying that Taylor Swift is directly influenced by Madonna. No, no, no, no. But you know, it's just it's something that I see a little bit all too often. And it's like, you know, that's another
00:43:56
Speaker
I think that what Beyonce said at once, it was like culture's currency is the most important currency. Look, every time that that woman releases an album, and I had noticed this about Beyonce, is that there is always at least one lyric from every album, and I would probably say post four, really, maybe even pre four, because I mean, single ladies was, you know, put a ring on it. That was the thing everybody was saying for a while.
00:44:20
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And they still say it. They still still say it. Yes. But there's always at least one lyric that just enters the cultural consciousness and just becomes like a phrase now that people use. Yep. And it's just a thing. Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah. And that and not only that, but then like with these last two albums with Renaissance and now Cowboy Carter.
00:44:42
Speaker
I mean, and maybe it's just, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if she has the finger on the pole. I mean, she does obviously, but like seeing the style trends come out around the same. I mean, the fact that like you saw all of this Chrome and still seeing tons of Chrome.
00:44:58
Speaker
in throughout fashion, whether it's pants, you know, very Y2K of it all. But now it was almost as if like when she teased Texas Hold'em or announced the new music at the Super Bowl. Right. I started noticing companies coming out with like the Western cowboy inspired looks. I saw on the news they had it was like where they did like their
00:45:23
Speaker
like the stock section and they like usually like interview like some CEO guy and they're just like, you know, well, your stock is doing really well. Why do you think that is? And they were interviewing the CEO of Levi's because Beyonce mentioned Levi's in her song. And what does that mean for the brand? And they were asking him all these things about, you know, oh, well, we so appreciate it and it's so nice and whatever. And, you know, and how people are going to start to study the market trends and is there going to be a spike for Levi's? And what does this do for the brand? And it's like,
00:45:52
Speaker
that's the type of effect that is crazy that I see around Beyonce that maybe I don't even see about, I don't, I mean, if I'm gonna be honest, I don't know that I see Madonna doing that in the same way either. Like I think there is some, but I think maybe because Beyonce is so of her community that she really tries to like, you know, I'm not closing the door behind me, you're coming up with me. Because even in the weeks leading up to it,
00:46:19
Speaker
I started noticing so many more black female country singers start to like knowing that Beyonce was going to do this gave them the agency to start to promote their work more. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of thing that I feel like you would want best as an artist is to be able to give people the agency to be either a true version of themselves or a better version of themselves. That's what you would hope for, to have that type of like
00:46:47
Speaker
Touchstone I think and I see that really a lot with every release that she does because even now like you know Kevin Aviance like with you know How he how his song was sampled on Renaissance I've been following Kevin forever like I've known Kevin for years and it's like yeah Yeah, I mean like I've seen him since like the parties and like the 90s and like the 2000s or whatever Yeah, but and just watching even his career and what it has done for him just from being on the album on one song and
00:47:14
Speaker
Sampled yeah, one song sampled right on a song from like 1995 has completely like good morning America He's speaking at universities now about queer culture and ballroom and like Everything on his journey and it happens every time she releases something I'm seeing all of these country stars now all the girls that were on blackbird. Mm-hmm
00:47:34
Speaker
Please, I get all of their labels and all of their teams have reached out to us at Peloton and be like, what can we do? How do we do that? Whatever. And it's the moment. And it's like that is the Beyonce effect. And it's something that feels very specific to her in the way that she does it that I don't see with anybody else. Right. Yeah. And this is not to shade Taylor Swift. At all. At all. At all. I just don't see commercially, obviously, her impact is absolutely insane.
00:48:01
Speaker
but the only cultural impact I currently have seen is the vinyl variants. The vinyl variant, but I think like when I think of it, like when, how, hi, it's me, I'm the problem, it's me. Yes, that too. That entered into the cultural consciousness. And I feel like that broke the fourth wall. That to me, like that's impact. Yes. You know, I see that being impact for her. But again, you know, I think every artist has their albums that are the most, you know, look,
00:48:30
Speaker
Does anybody, how many people talk about Kelly Clarkson's My December? Right. You know, it's a great album, but it's a very personal album. It's very one for the fans, but outside of like sober or never again, or what's the other one? Don't waste your time. Don't waste your time. But like nobody really talks about that album, but that was a very personal thing for her. I feel like this is Taylor's My December.
00:48:54
Speaker
Exactly. That's what it is. It is. It is my December. It's the tortured December's department. And that's really what it is. And wow. But I feel like every artist has that, you know, like totally. I feel like Madame X might have been Madonna's, you know, where she was just like, this is what I have to say.
00:49:13
Speaker
or even American life. Oh, 100 percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing. It's like, you know, I almost kind of love and I'm not obviously tortured.
Appreciating 'Flop' Albums
00:49:23
Speaker
Poets Department is not a flop like it's about to make right history with its debut. But I do love a quote unquote flop album. Oh, sometimes. Absolutely. Oftentimes it's artists pop artists specifically. Sometimes their best work. I will die on the hill that the glitter soundtrack is one of Mariah's best.
00:49:43
Speaker
I will die on that. I am not even kidding. So one of the episodes, this is maybe a month ago when Jeff and I, we were just doing like a pre record like warm up. Yeah.
00:49:54
Speaker
And he was like, I want you to rate Mariah's albums. And I think I ranked glitter in the top five. Oh, absolutely. And for me, I think I ranked it over the Emancipation of Mimi, which is like his favorites. And he was like gobsmacked. He was like, what? He was like, are you kidding me? And I was like, I'm being serious. I was like, it's a great album. It's a great album.
00:50:18
Speaker
so ahead of its time, probably because it was a little too close to the 80s still. I think like to what was that, 2001? 2001. Yeah. And so I was like, I was like, it's only what, like 11, 12 years separated from the 80s. So it was probably a little too close to that kid, but did it really well. Oh my God. No, I'm sorry. The duet with her and Eric Benet is one of the best duets she's ever done in her life. It is unbelievable.
00:50:46
Speaker
That's the song I go back to. Right. But that's the song that I go back to a lot. Like when I reach for Mariah songs, I reach for that one one of the most. And I listened to Caution probably more than I listened to most of her albums nowadays. And you know what? Jeff always tells me that the more it ages, he's like, it's one of her best. And I need to revisit Caution because it wasn't my favorite at first. But I need to go back and listen to it now. The worst part, God help me. And I know he's a legend, but the worst part of that album is Slick Rick's verse.
00:51:15
Speaker
It is the most nonsense. I was so aggravated. I was like, yes, Slick Rick, you better get it. And then when he started, I was like, where? This is just nothing. Go on, Queen, give us nothing. Give us nothing. Give us nothing. Oh, my gosh. Speaking of the glitter soundtrack,
00:51:34
Speaker
this song. I didn't mean to turn you on which was incredible. Cheryl. Cheryl. Cheryl. Cheryl. Cheryl's like a rock band, right? I think so. Which I write and I think that they use the Jimmy Jammin' Chair Your Loose to use the original
00:51:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Instrumental for it. But you know what song? Have you listened to the new Bonnie McKee single that was just released? I literally have it saved on my Spotify, but I haven't gotten a chance to do it yet. Yes, I have to do it. So you're going to listen to it and I think you're going to immediately think of I Didn't Mean to Turn You On. There's the synths are... I would even say maybe it's interpolated because it is very much inspired by. I'm excited. I love her. She's so good.
00:52:16
Speaker
she's I was I was like whoa like this is actually like I've always admired Bonnie McKee or obviously her songwriting is immaculate impeccable um but this song like made it made
00:52:29
Speaker
I don't want to like speak too soon, but it may be her best single. Oh, OK. I love it. I think I was just like I was like her voice sounds really strong. Production is incredible. Perfect fusion of 80s like synth pop with house music. Yes. So as a former hairdresser, too, I love everything about her because her hair is always on point. Yes. Every time I like see her like skin, I'm like, where are your pores? Right. Right. Right. Where are your pores? She's been she's been in this game.
00:52:58
Speaker
She has. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like speaking of her, like I'm so curious as what's going to happen with Katy Perry and her comeback.
Katy Perry's Anticipated Comeback
00:53:06
Speaker
You know, I don't, I don't. She's been teasing. She's been teasing, but I have a feeling that it's going to take a minute to get there. Okay. Yeah. I feel like this is going to be a long lead. A long lead. Okay. Do you think that, do you think we're going to get anything by the summer? Um,
00:53:23
Speaker
I don't think I can actually say that because I do know the answer to that. Oh, I was like, I actually just had a meeting about this not too long ago. Well, Katie, hurry up. It's almost overtime. This is your Christmas. Right. So they're unthawing her. Right. Oh, my gosh. Let's go, Katie. I need it. She needs something.
00:53:46
Speaker
She needs something. I am personally ready for her Katy Perry comeback. I really... I am, but I can't. I don't want peacock Katy Perry. I want like... We've done the Vegas thing. I wanted to be fun still, but I don't know. I just want something that I don't know. I don't know. She's got a good voice. Give me something, girl. Give me a bop.
00:54:06
Speaker
I would love, yeah, I would love a bop. I would love, I mean, I know that she just teased on TikTok that she has written a song with, oh my gosh, I'm gonna fuck up her name, Lukala. Oh yeah. Lukala. Lukala, yeah. Lukala, yes. And so I believe I'm familiar with Lukala. She was on, was she on a lotto song? Was that lottery? I think, was it, was she on there or was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was the feature on lottery, but she has a song.
00:54:35
Speaker
I think her big hit was Pretty Girl Era and she has another song called Hotter Now. You would love Hotter Now. Okay. I'm going to have to look this up. Yes. Definitely look that up. Hotter Now is my favorite. Pretty Girl Era is her hit though. Okay. I will welcome any new Katy Perry. I'm personally ready for it. I would love an album or at least a single again in the vein of Walking on Air, one of my favorites. That would be a song that we don't talk about enough.
00:55:01
Speaker
It really is like unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It is fucked up that it was not an official single. And let me tell you something. And so I've done a remix of this before. I don't know if we've ever talked about this. No. So there was like a hot minute like when the which was a California teenage dream when Teenage Dream came out. Yeah, me and Billy Waters and Joel had done a few mixes on spec
00:55:29
Speaker
they're called so like you just do them like they hand you the stems you just do them and then maybe they'll get them maybe they won't maybe they'll promo them maybe they won't whatever but you don't get paid for it sure and so they were just like you know do you want to do these and I was like yeah it's Katy Perry it's like 2011 this is like Pete Katy Perry absolutely did we did what did we do we did California girls ET and then when prism came out they also we were able to get the stems for walking on air
00:55:54
Speaker
I can't even tell you when you rip that song apart. It is so beautiful. It is like the chorus in the background that you don't even get to hear them all in like the album version. I gotta send you the mix that I did it really like it's I mean, it's like a 12 minute remix. It's like ridiculous. I couldn't stop myself.
00:56:11
Speaker
That's what the world needs though. Like, come on. Oh, that sounds immaculate. No, it's truly such a beautiful song. I remember, I remember listening to that song for the first time. And right after the bridge was she does that?
00:56:26
Speaker
I was like, I didn't realize that she could seem like that until that song. I was like, I knew that she had a good voice, but I was always, it's always been for me, a very unique sounding voice for that. And so when I heard that, I was like, wait, one goddamn minute. Like, where is this? Miss Perry, where has this been all your life?
00:56:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No. And I got to say, you know, it's it's I'm always very as I've gotten older too. And as I've done more remix work, like when people talk about this one can't sing this one can't sing. If give me the stems, I'll tell you immediately. I'll tell you that's where all the that's where all the secrets are. It's like, you know, when you get the chance to listen to the acapella and her always has fantastic acapellas. Love that. Always. Because you can hear when there's like auto tuning and different things being done. Oh, sure.
00:57:14
Speaker
Yeah, and every artist has a little bit of it, but hers are fantastic. She really does have a great voice. Okay, speaking of stems and remixing, I have a random question for you. Do labels ever tell you what you can and cannot do when remixing a song? It depends on the artist really, because it's like there are some artists that still approve their own remixes. I think that they'll give feedback.
00:57:40
Speaker
I don't know. I mean, I would they are like, would they ever be like, you can't touch this vocal or we don't want you to make like, Oh, like would they ever say like, let's say you got the stems and let's say you heard something in the background vocals that wasn't very present on the main mix. Like with right. Let's say you turn them up. Would they be like, uh, don't do that.
00:58:00
Speaker
Uh, no, I don't think so. I think it would just be a matter of whether or not they like it. Like if they had like feedback, like all the feedback I've ever gotten from a label has never been major. It's never been like, we don't want you to do this. We don't want you to do that with the vocal. It's just like, you know, a little bit here or make it, you know, add a, add a little bit of moment of energy here, or maybe make it a little bit shorter, maybe do this, whatever, but it's never right. Right. Can you make it under two minutes? We want a club, we want a club mix, but make it a minute and 58 seconds. Right.
00:58:29
Speaker
It's so crazy. But yeah, no, no, I haven't heard anything like that because usually like when you're dealing with labels, they are not like aficionados more often than not of music, like the people that you're dealing with when you're dealing with this. Right. Again, some more than others. It's not a, you know, it's not a one size fits all. But I think that, you know, if you're going out to
00:58:53
Speaker
Let's say the Blessed Madonna, you want her to do whatever she would normally do to make it a success. You know, so a lot of unless the artist says I absolutely hate this. Sure. Like I think I did when I did the remix for Sophie Tucker. They I had had like a I don't even know what you would call it. I put like a fake out for like a few beats like where you think the beats going to drop and I add something else. And then I made the beat drop. Uh huh.
00:59:17
Speaker
a little bit more tension. And when I sent it over, the only feedback was they were just like, can you take this part out and just go to the beat drop? And I was like, all right. Yeah, I was like, all right. All right. All right. I was like, I tried it. I tried it. And it's fine. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. Again, you're the artist. You have to be happy with this. Your name is on it.
00:59:34
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, you have to be happy with it. And you know, yeah, and that's that I mean, that's the whole part of the creative process, right? It's like your taste differs from someone else's taste. And right, you two of your taste is gonna be different from my taste, whatever. And I'm doing I will tell you, I'm doing a remix for an icon that will hopefully come out in a few months. And
00:59:57
Speaker
In order to get this done, I still haven't finished it. I have to do a version to send to this person, and then they will decide if they like the direction or not, and then that will decide whether or not we're gonna continue down this road.
01:00:09
Speaker
Okay. So a little bit of pressure, but I think it'll be fine. Oh, I'm so excited for you. That's so awesome. I can't wait. Thank you. But I love, I love when artists are like that involved. Yes, absolutely. And at least at one point in her career, Madonna was very involved. Oh, absolutely. And I think maybe probably still is. I would assume that knowing her, she's probably like, you're not really seeing this unless, you know. Totally, totally.
01:00:33
Speaker
What is the reasoning for what to do? Did we touch this on your last episode where I at least back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, there was, you know, you have remixes that would get commercially released, you know, whether it was on, you know, CD singles or nowadays, you know, on streaming services. But then you have remixes that are just promo only. What's the reason for that?
01:00:52
Speaker
because a lot of the times I think that they were remixes were done where this remix is the remix for radio, this is the remix for urban radio, this is the remix for the clubs, this is the...
Remixing Culture and File-Sharing Memories
01:01:04
Speaker
A lot of times like the double vinyl pack, it'll say like DJ promo or DJ service on it, and they would send those specifically only to DJs to play in nightclubs. Because a lot of times before streaming, obviously, and before the internet, you were hearing songs for the first time at the club. True. They were breaking remixes and breaking new tracks at the club.
01:01:27
Speaker
You know, like before Junior had a remix that he had done for Cher's Believe, he was playing the album version in the club. Like that was just, that was where you were hearing these things. Like radio at the time, like I don't know what it was like where you are, but here in New York, like K2U got to a point where they were playing like really big dance music and they were supporting all the hex hectares and the Juniors and all that other stuff. But yeah, that's where it was all happening. So it's like, and they would do different remixes for different markets.
01:01:57
Speaker
Yeah, that would that leads me to my song that we don't talk about enough, actually, because you just you just really just sparked a memory. So back in like the file sharing days of like Napster and LimeWire.
01:02:13
Speaker
Um, there was, you know, Madonna just known for her plethora of remixes. I mean, not only like officially commissioned, but just like tons of, uh, unofficial remixes. I mean, she's probably one of the most remix artists of all time and I'm a remix horror. I can't get enough. I'm like, please give them to me.
01:02:32
Speaker
But I remember during the American Life era, there were remixes commissioned for several songs, all the singles, but then in songs that were also not singles. And one of them being a mother and father. And Johnny Rocks had done a remix, I think, for K2U. Right. Right. Because he was a K2 DJ.
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I remember that remix being like this like rare file that was like getting shared on the file sharing services. And I just remember being like, Oh my God, I have to get this. This like, just like a snotty little teenager just being like, I have to have the high quality version.
01:03:11
Speaker
And the first remix, the first thing I ever downloaded, the first song I ever downloaded through, I think it was called Audio Galaxy was the program back in the day, was Junior's remix of Shannon's Give Me Tonight. No, no, no, no. Let the music play. Let the music play. And it was like this 13 minute remix and it took forever.
01:03:33
Speaker
to get the file to download, but that was like the first thing. And I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. Yes. And to the people listening, like you have no idea the stress that what to download a music file, it would take forever, right? It would slow your whole internet down, your whole everything down. And, and it was the most frustrating thing when you would be like maybe 75% and then your internet cuts out. Oh yeah.
01:03:57
Speaker
And then you had to, like, I don't even think that you, it wasn't like- It wouldn't restart. No, you had to start it over. They were like, when we got to like the LimeWire days, it was like, I was just setting things up and I'm like, I don't care if it'll take three weeks, let it run. Yes, oh my gosh, those were the days. I don't care what virus I get. Right, right. I have a vivid, vivid memory of being in my parents' living room with my friend Damien at the time, downloading what I would come to know is Britney Spears' Stronger.
01:04:27
Speaker
And hearing that for the first time, and just how it opens, and just being like, what is going on? And I was living. I've never been edgier. I've never been edgier than when I heard that foghorn. Oh, my god. Right. I was like, I'm into rock music. Like, I'm not even kidding. I was just like. Do you hear that? That's heavy metal. That's heavy metal, baby. I'm goss now.
01:04:56
Speaker
to Avril Lavigne. I like to rock out. Right. The queen of rock music, Avril Lavigne. Truly. Right. Right. Please. She's another one. Anniversary is 20 years of let go. God help us all. Like, what the fuck? I know.
Anniversaries and Music Collectibles
01:05:13
Speaker
That blows my mind. See, that's the thing that blows my mind is that I was just talking about this with someone today too. I was just like, time
01:05:19
Speaker
Not only is everyone exhausted these days, but time just feels like it's truly going faster. Oh yeah. Well, because again, I think it's just our time, our minds are diverted so much. Yeah. And so I'm just kind of like, I can't believe next week is going to be May. Right. I just said that at work today before I left. Yeah. I was like, how are we there already? I don't understand it. We were just celebrating New Year's Eve.
01:05:45
Speaker
Right, right. Like yesterday, I don't get it. It's nuts. I really can't, but it's, you know, I, I, I.
01:05:55
Speaker
Every Day Above Ground is a good one. That's what my Nana would say. That's right. That's right. We have to be thankful. We have to be thankful. I know that we discussed Walking in Area, but do you have a song? Another song that you want to select is maybe a song that we don't talk about enough? I think I'm going to pick a random Janet song. Please. Right, because I feel like the one that is always my favorite, that it's like it's on the Janet album and nobody ever really talks about it. I mean, that's why we're talking about this is Where Are You Now? I think it's one of her best.
01:06:22
Speaker
Just from like, from a songwriting perspective. I mean, Nellie Hooper did an incredible production, but from a songwriting perspective, it's such a sweet, just like beautiful. It almost feels like it should be like in a music box. Like it's just such a, I don't know. I don't know. I just remember listening to that album for the first time and hearing that. And I was like, this one, oh my God, my soul. So beautiful. And she sounds so good. And if I could pick one more Janet one, I'm sure you probably know it. There was a,
01:06:53
Speaker
45 that I had gotten and it was a what they call jukebox singles that they were made specifically for jukeboxes So it wasn't like a regular release like where you had like an a side where it's like a hit on one side and like You know like another song from the album on the other side sometimes for jukebox singles They would either print to a sides or like an a side and an unreleased song okay this had the song one more chance on it and
01:07:18
Speaker
Yep. It's so good. Yes. Oh, I love it so much. Yes, it's so good. I was obsessed. I think that that was also put on the if single. Oh, probably. Yeah, because I have the if Maxi single somewhere.
01:07:34
Speaker
R.I.P. Maxi Singles. Right. Right. And for those of you that don't know what a Maxi single is, it is a single that was based. So basically back in the day, you had your CD, like CD singles that typically had like two songs. It was usually like you said, like the single and then it was like a B-side, which could have been a remix, could have been an unreleased song, could have been an instrumental like whatever. And then you had your Maxi Singles, which were, you know,
01:07:59
Speaker
It had the typically the single version, but then it was usually a plethora of remixes. And if you were lucky, you had like Madonna singles. They had like nine, 10 tracks deep. Right. Basically, if you're Gloria Estefan, you probably have all the remixes and then maybe a ballad version, then maybe a French version and maybe a Spanish version or maybe, you know, exactly. And then and then a 15 minute mega mix of the best thing ever of truly a gift from God. Yeah. Like I'm not
Gloria Estefan's Underrated Album Exploration
01:08:25
Speaker
even kidding. I've heard you talk on the part about your Love for the Gloria album.
01:08:28
Speaker
And it's so crazy because I feel like every time I listen to you and Jeff, I'm like, let me in. Let me in. These are the things I want to talk about. Let me in there. No, let me in. No, truly. We'll have to have you come back for the Gloria album because that's an album. I would love to actually do a track by track on that album because it's an album that is completely subbed on. I hate
01:08:53
Speaker
In general, how much recognition Gloria Estefan does not receive from the pop community. Like the Latin community, she's the Latin queen of pop. Right. But like I feel like people just don't like Gloria's amazing. Oh, God. Yeah. Amazing. Beyond. Beyond. And so and but specifically that Gloria album like people if you love Future Nostalgia, if you love Chromatica, if you love the dance music of today, you will love the Gloria album.
01:09:21
Speaker
It's true. It really is true. And I think it holds up. Like there's not many that I think do, but I really do feel like that holds up as far as a pop album goes. It holds up so well. And I love the fusion of like Afro Cuban beats with dance music, the way that they do that with Pablo Flores. I was going to say, but Pablo Flores, Tony Moran, Emilio Estefan Jr. like all of these guys that were just solution. Yes. Like all of it at that time, it's like everybody was at the top of their game. Yeah.
01:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, no, incredible. I love that album. And I actually, I think I bought like, I imported a version because like some songs she had done in French in another country, like for some of them. Yeah. Yeah. Like they had a different cover and this is like way before the variants thing. And I was like, what? I was like a different artwork. Oh my God. Like who is this woman with an afro? Right.
01:10:12
Speaker
Right. Don't Let This Moment End is her best song in her catalog for me. A club stomper. Like the video, how it didn't become a thing here.
01:10:23
Speaker
I don't get it. Right. I don't get it. Right. X is mixed. Unbelievable. Truly that album. Oh my gosh. Like we have to stop because like, I want to say this, but I will, I'll say this like that album, not only is the album itself musically flawless, the remixes that came from it, flawless, the, the visual style, like the, the album design, like one of my favorite album covers all of the artwork on this in the sleeve.
01:10:46
Speaker
Yep. The I have the DVD like. Yes, me too. Me too. OK, we are going to be doing when it when it because I think the album came out in June. So I. So when June hits, which is going to be like tomorrow, right? The time is rolling. We will have you back and we will do a Gloria deep dive because Elia, it's going to be amazing. Oh, my God. Yes.
01:11:11
Speaker
I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Well, DJ John Michael, always a pleasure to have you. Thank you for joining tonight and to everyone listening until next time. Peace out. Bye.