Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Don't Wait Out Your Child's Reading Progress with Naomi O'Brien @readlikearockstarteaching
1.1k Plays4 months ago
Welcome back! In this episode Miss Beth is joined by Naomi O'brien of Read Like A Rockstar Teaching. Naomi is an educator, science of reading coach, author, and curriculum developer. Join us as we dive into essential strategies for changing kids lives (and you can start at home this summer). A must listen for teachers and parents! In this episode, we cover:
- Summer Reading Tips: Practical activities to keep your kindergartener engaged and learning.
- Science of Reading: Understanding that it’s not just about phonics—explore the broader aspects of reading education.
- Timely Intervention: Why you shouldn't "wait it out" when it comes to your child's reading development.
- Parental Guidance: How you can support and boost your child's reading journey with fun and effective techniques.
- Naomi O'Brien's website: Read Like a Rockstar Teaching
- Big City Readers website: Big City Readers
- Follow us on Instagram
- Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
Don't miss this insightful conversation filled with actionable advice and expert insights to help your child become a confident reader. Tune in now!Guest Bio:Naomi O'Brien is a dedicated educator, science of reading coach, author, and curriculum developer with a passion for literacy and early childhood education. Through her platform, Read Like a Rockstar Teaching, she empowers parents and educators with the tools and knowledge needed to support young readers.Resources Mentioned:Subscribe & Follow:Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share it with other parents and educators. Together, we can make reading fun and accessible for all children.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
�� Oh my gosh. Okay. Welcome back everybody to the play on words podcast. I'm so excited to dive into this conversation with the woman who needs no introduction, Naomi O'Brien. We're going to talk about science of reading and how it's not a trend and it's not just phonics. And hopefully she is going to give us some of her magic. Um, whether you're a teacher finishing the year or a parent listening to this episode, Naomi, I'm so glad you're here.
Naomi's Teaching Journey
00:00:41
Speaker
Yes. I'm so happy to be here because talking about reading is just one of the things I love to do. Yay. So, okay. You are a science of reading coach. You're not in the classroom anymore. And you're an author among like thousands of resources. I feel like you create, tell us a little bit about how you got here. Yeah. So when I started teaching back in 2010, I was in kindergarten and there just weren't the resources that I wanted. And I don't know if it was just intuition or what, but there were just some of the things that we had to do that I was like, this is not going to help my students. And I would just make stuff. I just was always good at creating stuff. And people would be like, you need to put that online and sell it. There's this website called TPT. You should get on there. And I was like, whatever. But I finally did it the next year and it just kind of took off because I was always like, well, I need this and someone else needs it too. And then just through my work in the classroom and noticing
00:01:32
Speaker
what worked for me versus unfortunately what wasn't working in other people's classrooms. I very early learned phonics, phonemic awareness, vocab, like all like the big things that we know are important were the things to do. And those are the things that people in my grade level were skipping or telling me not to, don't worry about phonics. Don't worry about phonemic awareness. Like literally my team leader was like, skip the green section. You don't need that. And that was phonemic awareness. But as a new teacher, I was so worried about getting in trouble that I was like, I can't skip this section. And I had the best results that school year. And I was like, it's that green section. So I'm trying to tell them it's because of this, these silly little things like blending and segmenting and beginning sounds. And they're like, no, just start making the memorized flashcards and sight words and things like that. But I was like, no, I really think it's that stuff.
Sharing Resources and Community Building
00:02:18
Speaker
And then I started to really pay attention to what I was doing. And it just kind of grew. So then I started sharing it on Instagram. And it's so funny now to see science of reading be this
00:02:28
Speaker
really big buzzword and people start talking about phonics and phonemic awareness because I'm like, I've been talking about this for a while now. Like check the date on my resources. They're from years ago, but I'm just glad that it's here because it's what teachers need. It's what students need and we need to change the data. So yeah, I just have been creating since then. I wrote a few books connected to phonemic awareness and phonological awareness just because I'm just so passionate about it and I want people to realize it's fun. It's important. Your kids need it. It's brain changing. It's, it's just so exciting to me. Well, yeah that's it. That's awesome. I also think it's so funny because I feel like that too. Like I feel like for a long time I've been running around like a chicken with my head caught off and people are like, what are you talking about? I don't know what you're saying. And now it does seem like more people are talking about it. However, I think that we kind of in a way like live in an education bubble because there's still so many people that would be, that are like,
00:03:25
Speaker
No, I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. yeah but What grade were you teaching at that time when people were like, skip that section? That was kindergarten. No. Yeah. So I taught kindergarten for two years and then I actually went up to second grade. So I got some of my students back and I got some of the other people's students back. And in second grade, you could tell the difference of who had that foundation from like me and a few other people on my team that were doing phonemic awareness and the teachers that refused to do it.
Case Studies and Misconceptions
00:03:53
Speaker
And it was like, oh my gosh, like we're ruining children. They're in second grade. They're struggling readers and it didn't have to be this way, you know? So that really stuck out to me. And that was my third year of like, I can never not teach this stuff to early readers because it's damaging and whole language and memorizing sight words doesn't, maybe it looks successful in kindergarten when they can memorize those 50 words, but come second grade when they need a lot more.
00:04:18
Speaker
they're not successful readers anymore and they're getting retained and they're struggling and it's just so sad because it didn't have to be that way. Yeah. So you got to do like kind of like your own research by seeing the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I'm like sad for the other kids. Um, one little kind of case study was that I, there was twins and I had one twin and another twin was in another class that wasn't getting phonemic awareness. And the mom was just like, what is going on here? Because this one is reading and this one isn't and it was it was lowkey like a diss to her son but she was like and he's the smart one so she's like why is the one in your class reading but my smart one is not and I was like um we use different methods and approaches and strategies and I can send you some things but I was like I know it's because they're not focusing on phonics and phonemic awareness and
00:05:06
Speaker
they're just skipping it and going trying to memorize words and it's not the way to do it. It may look like it at first, yes but there's no sustainability in that. I think that's the big thing that parents especially and teachers that are resistant. They're like, it looks like they think they really are because it really does look like it And I'm like, I could make so much more money if I was like, oh, I'll teach you how to read using sight words at like, it would be quick. And I'd be like, bye. yeah But it's, yeah it's the long run. It's like when people are like, oh, this is fear mongering. It's like, no, we're making our jobs harder. Yes. Yeah. You had to go learn this on their own. So did you learn? So in when you went to school, you were not taught the science of reading? No, I was not taught the science of reading in school.
00:05:51
Speaker
at all, like we were taught, you know, sight words and three queuing and things like that. And I don't know what it was like, what really just stuck out to me. But I was like, this isn't working. Like I was trying to follow it, you know, with my curriculum. And I was like, this isn't working.
Teaching Challenges and Overcoming Resistance
00:06:07
Speaker
I read one of my students reading trying to read the word draw, because it was one of those predictable books. And it was like, I like to run, I like to, I like to draw. And he just looked at the picture and said, I like to color. And I was like, what? He didn't even get close. yeah And then looking at the word drawn, I was like, well, he doesn't know DR and he doesn't know AW. And I'm flipping through the curriculum and I was like, I don't ever teach this stuff. Like this isn't even in here. So then I started to take it upon myself to do these things. So I was kind of self taught. And then I was like, looking things up. Cause I was like, surely I'm not the only person that's noticed this and I wasn't. It's just not the popular curriculum that our schools are buying for us. So I had to make the stuff myself.
00:06:45
Speaker
And okay, I had a similar story of how I figured it out too. Same book in a first grade classroom. Same type of book. I like to play. I like to slide. I like to swing. And then the last page was, I like to ride my bicycle. And first of all, bicycle. Of course it was. I know. i'm like i like Okay, so I'm like having her sound it out and then I did the thing that I was taught that was like, look at the first letter and look at the picture, what could it be? And I was like, if she can get bike, that was good enough for me in this assessment I was giving. But this little girl i actually didn't know what a bicycle was.
00:07:26
Speaker
And I was like, well, then how do I teach this if we have different like amounts of words and things that kids have seen and and been exposed to? And now, of course, like you and I know, like it's just it's just crazy that that that it it shouldn't be a lottery, but like it is that like a certain twin would get you and not another teacher. So you taught yourself and made your own resources, but you didn't get in trouble doing that. I didn't because of my data. it was oh i've I've always worked in really low performing Title I schools where certain data was just expected and the low data wasn't surprising. So when I would come in and this class would just be off the charts, like my first year, people were like, oh, well, you must have got lucky.
Advocating for Evidence-Based Practices
00:08:13
Speaker
They must have just given you these certain kids. And they kind of said the same thing the second year as well. um But then when it kept happening, and I kind of thought the same thing too. I was like, maybe I am getting lucky because I'm just a first year teacher. Why would I have better data than this 13 year teacher?
00:08:26
Speaker
But then I was like, no, like my fourth year, I was like, I'm doing this on purpose. It's, it's all the stuff that I'm strategically doing. I'm creating readers on purpose. And then when I started to find research to support what I said, I felt more confident kind of being more vocal about it and pushing back. Um, cause I would kind of do it secretly and I'm like, I hope it's, I hope it's going to work this year. And it was like, people were like, what are you doing? These kids are reading or the next year, the teachers wouldn't be like, I've never gotten kids this prepared for first grade or this prepared for second grade. What did you do last year? And I'm like, phonics, phonemic awareness, vocabulary, fluency. um So I was like, okay, I'm really doing this on purpose. And then I started reading more about it to really make sure I knew what I was doing. And I was like, yeah, this is backing it up. And then I was learning new strategies of stuff that I didn't know. So I just kind of self taught myself along the way. And then the data was there to back up what I was doing. And the research was there to back up what I was doing. and I was like, okay, I'm onto something. And this is what the research says. That's not new.
00:09:23
Speaker
i I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm the only one that knows about this. And I was like, Oh no, it's it's been out here for years. We're just taught the wrong thing. That is a big debate on the internet. And so many, actually, I was in a volunteer training the other day, there's this program, I'm in Chicago. And there's this program that like goes into underfunded schools and like brings volunteers to read with kids. And they were talking about the curriculum they do. And I was trying, like, I'm like, I don't need to jump in and say, this is the wrong curriculum because I'm like, this is this is something and like, you know, the focus maybe is social emotional. It doesn't need to be like, no, here's the lesson. But ah by the end of the orientation, I was like, I gotta say something. I gotta ask if I can help write the curriculum. But they were teaching, you know, like sight words are words like how and the that are irregular. And so one of the stations will be to teach kids to just memorize these words and you'll help them with flashcards.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah, no, that was exactly. You got to say something. You got to say something. I and know. So in the orientation, it was virtual. And I was like, oh, like, and I was like, okay, just ask at the end, ask at the end. But then, um luckily, someone else at the end was like, now you said something about sight words. I think there's this thing called reading wars that was a retired teacher. And she was like, is that is that a swing in the reading wars? Or what are people saying? And I was like, Oh, people do know about this. Can you, okay. Yeah. Can you talk about, okay. So I want to talk about why people think it's a swing, but it's really old research, but, um, like how that falls into, if like, I think like there's a certain generation that. Puts it under reading wars still. Do you, can you talk about that? And I hate it because it's not a matter of, well, this is my approach and this is your approach. Either way we'll get a reader. It's just, what do you prefer?
Impact of Effective Reading Instruction
00:11:03
Speaker
It's there is an highly effective way to do things. And there's a way that doesn't work. And you are harming kids when you do the other way. So I'm like, it's not a war because it's there's no even equality at all. It's not just about like, well, I like it like this. You like it like that. And I faced a lot of that at my last school. And that was the first time as ah I was at a school where even though I was on my 11th year, everyone else was like on their 20th year. So there were but more veteran teachers than me. And they are just like, well, we're that old school. That's that new stuff. But this is how we do it old school. And I think they're under the assumption that their old school ways, like it may be old, but it still works and gets the job done. And I'm just like, guys, look at our data. No, it's not getting the job done. um And again, I've only worked in title one schools. And I've also only worked with large populations of ELL students, which to your point earlier with that student not knowing the word bicycle or bike,
00:11:59
Speaker
These students may not have the vocabulary, so three cueing system isn't going to work when you can't look at the picture and really connect it to an English word. um But I really think that these people think that there's two different ways to do it, and it doesn't matter which way you do it as long as you do it well. And it's just so misguided. And what's just really frustrating is that kids lose, because when you're doing it the wrong way, they're not going to become readers. and For whatever reason, people are just OK with that data. you know And they're OK blaming the kids. They're OK like this school that I was just at had this huge population of special ed students. They're like, well, this is just our community. And I was like, you don't just have a community that just happens to have a large population of SPED students. You are mislabeling students because your teaching methods are so bad that none of your students can read. And you're just saying, oh, well, they must have a learning disability. that They must have a learning disability. Like a lot of the stuff was like phonological processing disorder. And I was like,
00:12:57
Speaker
Well, have you worked on phonological awareness or do they, like, so, and then same thing. I taught second grade and, um, their pandemic kids. So there was like their newcomers to the country. They went through the pandemic. They're poor. So of course, this is why only 4% of the fifth graders pass the state test. So that nobody was shocked by that. I was like, what is happening? Cause I just moved to California. And I was like, this is not shocking to y'all. Y'all are upset. Y'all aren't sad by this information.
Addressing Bias and Expectations
00:13:23
Speaker
And so I get my second graders who don't even know the alphabet. And um I had originally been offered TK. And then the week before school started, they put me up to second grade. And the principal was like, well, I mean, it'll be like kindergarten because that's what their data is like. So I was like, oh my goodness. But it's sad because mike they're seven and eight years old. They're very aware that they can't read. um But they made so much growth. it was It was such a hard year, but it was so rewarding. But we had to start all the way back at the beginning.
00:13:53
Speaker
And then about halfway during the year, like maybe February when the second dibbles assessment came out and my students went from red to like, now they're on yellow. Some of them are green. Some of them are even blue above grade level. And the principal was like, what are you doing? And she was like, can do you run a training? And I'd actually been offering to run a training all year. And I think they were like, oh, she thinks she can come in here and change stuff. She doesn't know our kids, but they were like, Oh my gosh, what are you doing in there? We got to start somebody started sending people in to observe me and, I did run a training for them and I gave them like access to my reading membership because it was like, y'all have to do better than what you've been doing. So they actually have been still using it this year. And if you have reached out to me saying, Oh, wow, like they're really getting it or that really works or they're like, it's fun to teach. And I was like, yes, it's fun to teach and see the results and see growth. It'd be frustrating to go in every day and nothing's working. They're not learning. Your lessons aren't working. So wow. Yeah.
00:14:48
Speaker
The fact that there's even an idea that it's two different methods and which one is better, we don't know. We do know. There's research. There's case studies. There's decades of research to back up which one should be the winning team. I don't even know why the other ones would even be an option. i I know that I'm trying to figure that out. like why Every time I have another teacher advocate on this podcast, I'm like, why do you think people are so resistant if people are saying, this is what helps kids? like why Why wouldn't you just be a little curious? I just i can't figure it out. I can't either. um And maybe because they've heard that this whole time, like this is what helped kids. But I'm like, but you've seen that it didn't. So why would you keep
00:15:33
Speaker
believing that one like I have talked to people people that like right now on Instagram are huge accounts that are like the whole time I was in the classroom I was teaching it the wrong way and my kids weren't learning but I didn't know what to do and I'm like then stop doing what you were doing like why would you do something knowingly wrong for 10 years like I can understand being misguided a bit but at some point you didn't with the internet at our hands, right? And know it's not a part of our job to go home and do extra
Implementing New Methods and Proving Success
00:15:59
Speaker
research. But if we weren't taught the right way and the kids in front of us are not doing like learning properly, there's no way I could just sit there and not try to make some sort of change.
00:16:08
Speaker
Yeah. Do you think that maybe like teachers are that aren't saying it are like just too burnt out and they're they're like not looking that as closely? I don't want to like generalize, but I'm i'm like, right what would what would be the reason that someone would see that it's not working and not do it? I just can't believe that that would happen, but it is. In my experience with the schools I've been in, I would say it's a bias against the students. It's like, well, they're poor. So oh they can't read because they're poor. They can't read because they're Spanish speakers. Oh, they have a second language. So they they find other ways to explain away the data or they're from trauma. So their trauma keeps them from reading or we can't expect this or their families, you know,
00:16:50
Speaker
have like work overnight so their families can't read to them at night. So that's why they can't read or you know what I mean? So I think they find other ways to explain it instead of saying, maybe it's the instruction, maybe it's me. And that's hard to say, maybe it's me, but maybe it is you. um And maybe there's some things that we can change and the curriculum can change and you can advocate for that at your school. And I often get DMs and messages from people saying, I i want to follow this, but my principal won't let me. And I'm like, I mean, I don't doubt that because I've seen some principals out there, but I would just be so in disbelief that a principal would really say, your data is looking good. You're not following the wrong curriculum. Like, go back to the old way where your students were failing. Like, if you're really producing results and you can show evidence, I really just doubt that a principal would be like, nope, I don't care if the data is improving. I don't care if your kids are now reading. Go back to the way that wasn't working.
00:17:42
Speaker
That's, that's, I agree. I'm wondering, that was one of the questions I was about to ask you is that if a teacher says, like, how do I approach my admin about this? Do you have other steps? So like, would you say, okay, just like do it and then bring the data? Or like, would you say, that would I mean, I would do, but I honestly and would do both and have done both. Like last year I'm new to the school. So I was like, I know what I can do, but they don't know what I can do. Like, you know, I was at my other school for six years, so the principal was like, do whatever you want as long as you're getting these results. So I was new to this school because I just moved and there's like benchmarks everywhere. And I was like, oh, and they're like their level library and all this stuff. And I was like, I'm not using this stuff. um But I didn't go advertise it because she didn't know me yet. So if she came into my room, I was still doing my own lessons and I was prepared to say this is why I'm doing this.
00:18:37
Speaker
Um, and then I let my data speak for itself. Um, but there's been other years where I was like, Hey, do you mind if I try this out of my classroom? And I was like, here's the research to back it up or send them a link saying, I saw this research and I saw this study and how effective this is. This is what I'm going to be doing. So if you're coming in, this is what you're going to be seeing in the classroom. And here's why I don't have Lucy Culkin's units of studies out. And they're like, okay, cool. We trust you. Um, so I've done both where I've been upfront about it and said, this is what I'm going to start trying out of my classroom. or even I just didn't say anything and then, but I was prepared for if I got confronted, like, why aren't you teaching this with fidelity saying, well, actually I saw research to support that says this doesn't work. And this is why I'm doing this instead. And look at this data yeah and look at how the kids are doing. I think a lot of teachers are afraid of like ruffling feathers, which is crazy when kids lives are on the line.
Parental Involvement and Advocacy
00:19:28
Speaker
yeah And that's how I think about it. Like,
00:19:31
Speaker
It's the kids there and they're right in your face every single day. And like you have an impact on them. Like, and I always feel dramatic saying it, but I fully mean it. I'm like, you're ruining their lives. Like they're literally ruining their lives. When you choose to go in every day and do something that you know, isn't going to help them or you choose to not try something that you saw that said it can help 95 to 98% of readers. This is effective. There's seconds of research and you just say, well, I don't want to get in trouble. There's 20 something kids in front of you that if they don't learn how to read or they're now a year behind and the next teacher is just like you and the next teacher is just like you, they will never learn how to read. Like you're literally ruining their lives. You're affecting their future jobs, just everything. And it's like, it's, there's so much at stake. And even down in kinder and first grade when it seems like, Oh, it's just fun and playing. And what role do I really have? You have one of the most important roles, arguably, um, like you're setting them up for later on because their middle school teacher doesn't know how to teach them.
00:20:26
Speaker
how to read, their high school teacher doesn't know how to teach them how to read. And by that point, it's too late. So it's like, you really do matter. And it's not just kindergarten, it's kindergarten, and it matters. It's first grade, and it really matters. It's second grade. And that's one of like your last years to really strengthen that foundational skill. And it really, really matters. Yeah, I i just um answered a parent question and and on our blog the other day that that was like a parent said, I don't want to be rude. How do I ask my child's teacher about this? And I i was like, it's actually rude not to ask. Like, yeah, the way you can deliver it, of course, like you don't want to be like, Hey, I know more than you. No one is saying do that. But like, if you go in and be like, Hey, I've read about this. Can you tell me more about this or like offer
00:21:12
Speaker
to help or just like learn more about the curriculum that is advocating for every child, not just like, yeah, it's like yours and everybody else. My sister-in-law just actually had to do that. um Her kid is in kindergarten and around December, she was like, they started sending home sight word lists. She's like, and I saw on your page, that's not okay. Like what do I do? She's like, I'm just going to start sending her stuff from your page. um And she was like, I'm so scared. She's like, cause what if she starts mistreating him or what if, you know, But she was like, oh my gosh, she was so receptive. And the whole school like overhauled their curriculum. and
00:21:45
Speaker
She was like, I told her that you said to like, bring in dry race boards and to have them like, add writing to it. And like, they're doing all of these new things. And the teacher was actually really thankful because she noticed she didn't feel like it was right. But she also didn't know what else to do. And I feel like that's a lot of teachers. Yes, it's not right. They don't
Reflecting on Growth and Learning Methods
00:22:01
Speaker
know what else to do. And they don't have the time to really do all of that extra research or something like that. So they just do what they know and hope for the best. um So she was actually very thankful that Kara came in and was like, hey, I saw this different way. You could be teaching sight words where they're actually reading them, not memorizing a list. Because I'm like, how is the first list A and then like? I was like, that's a silent E. Down. I was like, there's a diphthong in there. i'm like And it they're like, oh, these are the easy beginner words. is like But if you're really paying attention to the phonics elements, no, they're not.
00:22:33
Speaker
And I don't see how people can see that and it just not click and be like, Oh my gosh. Cause I have sent home site word list before back in the day. see And then once I, once I saw that difference, it was like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe I ever thought that that was okay. Immediate switch, not like, well, they both work. Cause I was like, did I get them to memorize it? Yes. Did they probably remember them in second grade? No. So. Yeah. Oh, I just remembered when you were saying that I remember a parent teacher conference of kindergartners and I was talking about teaching them sight words. And I was like, if they um like look at the word like and say said, like, that's okay. They're on the right track.
00:23:15
Speaker
I was like, that's showing that they're that that they like know that it's the same amount of letters. Right. Oh gosh. We're like, it's the meaning that matters most. Oh my gosh. How embarrassing. Okay. So can you talk a little bit about, okay. So we've talked about science of reading is not, well, also I think there's like a common misunderstanding that people think that science of reading is a specific curriculum. Yes. Have you heard this? you You can tell with the way that they so like ask a question about it. Like, is this science of reading? Or where can I get science of reading? And I'm like, it's not any one thing. Yes. So yes, so science of reading refers to a body of research. yeah And um I think, well, what are some actually, I was gonna say, let's let's solve some of the things. But what are some things that you hear people misconceptions you hear about what people think the science of reading is?
00:24:10
Speaker
I think they just think like it's a phonics and phonemic awareness program. Um, they'll think that it is an actual curriculum. They'll look at something and be like, is this science of reading? And I'm like, what you mean to say is like, is this supported by the research that's within the body of, you know, like work that is the evidence that that's like the science behind reading. Um, so was like I, I almost started to change some of my language of like, this is supported by the research or the science behind the research of reading or like neuroscientists would say this um because they just think it's one thing and it's the way you have to think about it. And it's like, is it supported by the research that says this is how your brain learns to read or this would help your brain learn to read or, you know, taking this information in a certain way.
Communicating Science of Reading to Parents
00:24:56
Speaker
And is it the most effective way to do it? Like that is the science of reading, not just like, is this worksheet SOR? And it's like,
00:25:03
Speaker
What? It's like, it's like semantics. But also I'm like, I really feel like you don't get it then if you ask that way. I know, I know. And then I'd like especially you probably think about this too, in creating content, I'm trying to make content as simple to understand for parents that have 10 seconds as possible, but also like explain as much as possible. But it's like, you just can't. And I think that's also a reminder, like don't get your news from social media. but yeah like actually just like like, oh, that's something like, think of it as like, oh, I should read more about that. They just brought that to my attention. Um, yeah okay. So it's not just phonics and phonemic awareness in, in a pretend that a parent is listening that has a four year old and they have never heard anything of it. How would you explain that? That it's not phonics and, and what it is and what to look for?
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think, well, when I do talk to parents or teachers, I'm just like, it is just the best practices when it comes to reading. You might even find it stuff you're already doing. And hey, it is supported by something that the research says. So it's not this magical one thing that it has to look this way. I've even just said that recently, I was like, it's the science, it's the research, it's like the way that you implement it is the art. So it can take on many forms. I love that. As long as it's backed by evidence. So it's like, do you have to do it the same way that I did? No, but at its base, does it have to be supported by what the research says yet? So it's going to be phonics and phonemic awareness, but it's also going to be fluency and comprehension and tier two vocabulary and vocabulary strategies and things like that, that all go into becoming a skilled reader. um
00:26:42
Speaker
So just really thinking about it in that way. And then it's like, then you have to go read and research and see which way is the most effective way to do these things. Because there's so much out there.
Training and Resource Implementation
00:26:52
Speaker
Um, and a lot of the stuff even just needs a small tweak and it's aligned, you know, to the research. So it's not all bad. And I think it's just fine tuning your eye because you know, the research so well to see, okay, yeah, that's a little sketchy, but if you just made this one small tweak, then you could use that thing. Yes. That's such, okay. I was doing a professional development at a school and it was the kindergarten through third grade team. And they, there were like some questions and I was realizing when I was talking to them that I was like,
00:27:22
Speaker
They have a lot of different curriculum like between what i think that's what also another thing that people don't realize is that like teacher to teacher even in the same school are doing different things and that's crazy you know like somebody was like oh our school uses this and like. I, teachers are doing what they, like, they're piecing it together. They're adding different things. So that's an annoying thing of itself. But I realized that they had all this curriculum, they had great, they had Orton Gillyham stuff, they had UFly, they had all these things, but they weren't trained. And so it, they didn't really know what to do with it.
00:27:59
Speaker
And I think yeah that that's such a good reminder that you're like, as long as you know, if you know the science, you just can look at anything and tweak it. Like the curriculum doesn't really matter. You'll be like, okay, this is it. Okay. Here's how I can make it more aligned. So do you have a favorite? um Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say, even when they have that stuff, cause the school that I just came from, they had Hegarty and I was like, Oh my gosh, great. They have Hegarty. And then I started to kind of see how people were using it. And I was like, Oh no. I never thought that you could use Hagerty the wrong way, but just not, you know, like focusing on letters or they're saying the sounds the wrong way or, and I was like, Oh my goodness. Um, so even with the right stuff, like you fly or OG or this, if it's not, if you're not trained properly and you don't really understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, it can still be used the wrong way. And that's really scary. Cause then you would have someone think being like, okay, I'm good to go. I'm trained. I went to this training. I got letters. I got this.
00:28:58
Speaker
And then they're still going back and implementing it in the wrong way. So then, then they can say, see, if this didn't work. This was just another pendulum swing. And it's like. No, it's still you. Yeah. so i think I think I read somewhere recently that strong phonics instruction without strong and no strong phonics activities without strong faunnas like and extract ah fun it instruction is going nowhere.
Preparing Teachers and Engaging Parents
00:29:21
Speaker
And I think that means like for kids, but I also think for like the teachers that if they don't ah have the training, they're like it's like kind of like if you like have the manual to
00:29:35
Speaker
go into surgery, but you don't have the training. And then you're like, wait, shoot. This was step three. Am I doing this right? Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Oh, gosh. Agreed. This is a big question, but do you have any thoughts on how we get every teacher trained? I was just going to say that. I was like, so what is the solution to that? Like, what is the solution to that? um Because it's scary. um And I just don't know. I think college I guess has to do a better job preparing teachers so that they're coming out of the gate and they already know what they're doing. And then they build that confidence like when they're actually in the classroom with students. Cause then that's ah another part of it where there's some stuff, you know, in the research that sounds good in theory. And then in the classroom, you may have to make tweaks based on the kids in front of you. And it may not work as perfectly as it did in the research or the case study. So just the amount of skill you have to have.
00:30:28
Speaker
um to be able to go in and implement all of this stuff and make changes in the moment based on what the kids are saying or doing. um It's a lot. Yeah, it is. Oh my gosh. um Okay, so it's not a trend. It's not phonics only and it's also not a curriculum. um Like what else what else what is there to know about how parents can support their kids at home besides advocating for their kids at school. like Do you have a start here thought for parents or maybe summer's coming up and people are like, okay, well then how do I support my kid? oh Actually, pause on that answer because I have to ask you, somebody sent me a message the other day that said that their kindergarten teacher said that on the first day of first grade,
00:31:18
Speaker
That so they already got out of school for the summer But at the first day of first grade their child should be reading a hundred words per minute. That was the only Guidance of what they should practice for the summer thats That is always that's mild It's like what did you expect them to do I always I hate seeing there's been so many videos lately I don't know why the algorithm has been sending it to me and but It's like blaming the parents, like parents need to do a better job. Like they're sending these kids to school and their kids can't read. what What training do you think that they went to that they should realistically know how to, like you can't even teach the kids how to read. So why would the parents know how to teach you how to read? Like you really think they're going to sit there and go through systematic phonics and phonemic awareness and pull out tier two vocabulary and work on comprehension strategies and build fluency progression over time at home and just be trained to do all of this stuff.
00:32:16
Speaker
um So I'm like, when I see people blame the parents, it's usually because they're like, well, they're not reading with them every night. I was like, well, that just shows me that you don't know what goes into reading if you think that is a big thing that's making your kids not be able to read. um So that is wild. But I always just tell parents, you know, like, make it fun. um There's so many activities you can do that build phonological awareness, because I feel like that is one of the biggest things that they are not getting at school, like they may get some sort of phonics, but phonemic awareness is usually missing. So like play these sound games, which is why I even wrote those books. um It is fun. There's no natural way to practice it. So go out of your way to make it fun, make it a game. And it's changing their brains.
Importance of Early Education
00:33:01
Speaker
It's helping their brains be able to isolate individual sounds. So ask about beginning sounds and ending sounds and play like an I spy kind of game, but you're saying the sounds in the word instead of just, you know, saying the whole word or
00:33:14
Speaker
saying the sound it ends with or the sound in the middle, um things like that. And start as early as possible. I know there's a lot of teachers that will say, oh, they're just a little bit immature. They'll grow up over the summer and the reading will kick in next year. It's like, it doesn't just kick in. It literally has to be taught. So don't wait around um and advocate for sure. And then the earlier, the better because I'd rather, you know, teach them young. Why I don't even like teaching second grade, because like what I found for my first year in second grade, even though I was this really strong reading teacher, it took so much more time to try to undo what these kids knew and then re-teach them the right way before the end of the year. And I was like, the ones that came to me, and they already were where they were supposed to be, like they took off. And then the other, I was like, oh, I wish I could get you guys earlier and not have to undo stuff first. I wish you just learned the right way from the start, because you were capable of doing it. like My second graders last year, all of them were red.
00:34:09
Speaker
and And remember, this is a school with a really high-sped population. So I'm like, is it something in the water? like What is going on in this community? And then I was like, nope. Just as I suspected, they just weren't taught properly. And for some of them to just take off and be above grade level, like they already had it in them. And I'm like, no, imagine if they already came to me on grade level or above how much further they could have gotten. Because, yeah, you got the blue. But where could you have been if you didn't start? At negative three, we're starting on a pre-K level. Some of them, they're significantly behind with everybody's score in August. And I was like, this is not fair to them. And this isn't OK. So starting as early as possible to just give them the best chance to grow and grow and grow in pre
Diverse Learning Needs and Strategies
00:34:49
Speaker
-K. One, two, it's so important. And later on, those teachers don't know what to do later on because they're not supposed to be getting kids that haven't been taught how to read that. So it's not even like they're doing a bad job. They were not trained in foundational reading skills.
00:35:03
Speaker
Um, and they have other things to worry about, you know, they're trying to get them ready for middle school, but they have to go back to kindergarten lessons. So it's just a mess. But yeah, definitely just working on, and I think you do have to advocate because you have to know what your kids know, what they don't know. Cause when parents reach out to me and they say, they have a problem with this. And I'm like, well, have they been being taught that thing and they still don't know it or was it never taught? And that's why they don't know it. Cause those are two totally different conversations. If yes, they've been exposed to. phonics, phonemic awareness. We did this every day. We did that every day. Cause it's like, that's a whole conversation to have. But then if they were never taught that thing, then it's like, okay, well then let's start here. And that's probably the problem. Yeah. I just, this is the first time I heard this term, um, with someone on my podcast, they said, is it this way dyslexia or dysteachia?
00:35:50
Speaker
And I love that. I know. i was And I was like, did you make that up? She's like, no. I love that. I feel like you can't say that, though, because then people are like, you're shaming teachers. And I'm like, oh, every. Yeah, exactly. no Well, well, do we deserve it, though? Well, and I'm like, no, I am one of the teachers also. like It's like students are are being failed, but also like teachers are also the ones that are like being gaslit because like we paid for our education and didn't get the training we needed. So yeah no one is like blaming the teachers. We're saying like ah teachers are also the victims here, but yeah when you realize it, you have to do something about it. Yeah.
00:36:29
Speaker
Um, yeah. So do you have a favorite, um, assessment? So my backing it up, meaning like parents, if a parent says, okay, my child's teacher said work on getting them to read a hundred words per minute. I was like, well, maybe ask follow-up questions. Like what kind of words, like what's her spelling developmental spelling level, what spelling patterns have been taught? Yes. What kind of decodable do you have? Like, ah if a parent wants to do it, or like, if you're a teacher, the teacher's like, I don't know, all I have is a running record. I don't know what else whether kind of data to give parents of what they should work on kindergarten into first grade this summer. um I have one that I made myself that just go through like the phonics elements. I also love like past and just like,
00:37:21
Speaker
I don't know. Cause I feel like some of that stuff gets so technical and then parents will just get overwhelmed yeah and not do it. Not the kind of stuff they should be doing. Like the teacher should be doing them specific things, but I always say to look up like some phonics patterns, find out what your kids know and what they don't know, and then just start teaching them the ones that they don't know, like, and just do the best you can. Cause like, you're not going to go get yourself fully trained and certified to be like this highly effective reading teacher over the summer. So just do. the best that you can because you you honestly should be able to just rely on the school system. And I was like go to phonics videos if you can, make it fun, work on phonemic awareness, get in those vocabulary words. I was like you know pause a show and stop and ask them like what's going on? I was like you can work on comprehension in fun ways. I love that. And just not make it too schooly because
00:38:12
Speaker
I also have heard from parents where they're the teacher and the parent, they butt heads with their kids a lot. It's just not fun. Their kids mad at them. They're stressing out their kid. I was like, and then you just don't want that either for the family dynamic or for the wanting them to enjoy learning how to read dynamic. So it's like, you don't want to do so much damage that they go back to school. They hate reading instruction because they've been like pestered all summer or like they've been getting in trouble all summer. So I'm just like, make it as fun as possible. and But you have to ask those questions first. And then if the teacher doesn't know it, then that's a problem that I would escalate to the principal. Because why doesn't the teacher know which phonics elements my students know and don't know? like Have you been working on phonological awareness? like Do they have to work on blending, segmenting? Can they isolate sounds? Can they segment sounds? What vocabulary have you covered? So ask those questions. And then that can be an eye opener to you that it's not happening. And then you have to continue to advocate for it. Yeah.
00:39:11
Speaker
Okay. One last question for you. And I don't know if you, I didn't give you this question before, but I'm just looking at the questions that parents asked. Um, what would you say about, um, like, how does the science of reading inform differentiated instruction, like for diverse needs? So this one specifically, um, said my son's autistic. Is the science of reading going to work for him? Does it look different? Um, do you have anything to say about that? It does work for him. And I've taught like so many autistic students over the years. And yes, like I feel like the systematic nature and like the repetition and things that go along with it, it just goes perfectly with autistic students. um Using my sound wall last year, one of my students, like that was the first thing he would come in and check to see if I unlocked a new sound. And he would like repeat it, look at it. like He knew exactly where it was. um
00:40:05
Speaker
And it is intended for to be the most effective for all readers, you know, for the most amount of readers and get the most amount of impact. So yes, it is totally for autistic students as well. um And it's just going to give everybody the most bang for their buck. um And then within the classroom, though, the teacher has to be great at diversifying the lessons and making sure that everyone is getting what they need. So thinking about what that looks like in the whole group, whether you partner your students up and, you know, give different groups, different tasks, different partners, different tasks, and then what that looks like when you pull them out in small groups and when you see those students, what you're working on with them. um
00:40:44
Speaker
And even a lot of that can be tricky for teach because they're like, well, what is the what are the rest of the kids doing? Or it like, well, that's a behavior management problem. and That's a whole other conversation. But you have to be meeting the students where they are and giving them that instruction that they need at their level. um And it is tricky. But it's also just a part of our jobs. I feel like like that is part of the job that you have 20 something maybe even 30 something students with different needs and different levels. And that's what we have to do like that is what teaching is. So to act like it's impossible, I don't feel like is fair, because like that that's the job.
Balancing Word Memorization
00:41:19
Speaker
um And we have to meet the needs of all of our learners on both ends of the spectrum, even. like um Sometimes, like but I have a son who is very high performing, and he is gifted. And it's like, oh, well, he's fine. He doesn't need it. He can just go sit and read. And it's like, no, he comes to school to be challenged and learn new things just as well as anybody else. So whether it's your intervention group or
00:41:42
Speaker
you're a higher group, like they all come to school to have their needs met. So dig into that body of work, dig into that research and find something where they can be developing their skills in some way, even if every group is not working on the same thing at the same time, like it's literally our job. It is. Would you say that there's ever a time that you should just have kids memorize words to read? I will say sometimes. And i'll I'll say here's what I did last year is that I was like, okay, I'm coming in at second grade, time is not on my side. And there were just a few words I needed them to know early on because we weren't going to get there systematically yet. And I did say I just need y'all to know that this is the word that like we haven't gone over the digraph yet. We haven't learned that the e can make a schwa sound. But I just need you guys to know whenever you see this word, it's that
00:42:34
Speaker
And then later, though, when I came back around to it, I did teach them how to read the word. But there were just a few things that because it was second grade, I i needed them to know it so they could write with it, so they could read um with it early on. But then I still to go back and teach them how to read it. So in that sense, yeah yes, I did have to make it work. But I also knew that I wasn't going to like, let it stay like that for the remainder of the year. Okay. and What are your thoughts on that? Oh, gosh, that's a great question. um Yeah, same. It's like such like a specific situation where like if it is like a fifth grade student and I'm trying to like help them with something specific and it's not like I have them for eight weeks and I can do intervention with them, but but like I'm helping them bridge in one subject or in one area totally.
Focus on Reading Business and Personal Management
00:43:26
Speaker
um Or sometimes I feel like I've worked with a couple of Down syndrome, kids with Down syndrome, and that has helped a little bit introduce like a couple of words, but then I always go back to systematic instruction, but just ah like sometimes in the bridge, but that's like, it's like a very, if it's like a very different I don't want to say very different learning need because the systematic construction is actually like great. I think, I think it's such like a misconception. People will be like, yeah, that doesn't work if you're dyslexic. I'm like, no, there's actually like a rush for the dyslexic brain. Yeah. So like, no, actually it does. Yeah. I had a student get diagnosed last year and the mom was like, well, what does he have to do? Does he have to go into a different class now? And I was like,
00:44:14
Speaker
I promise you like I am skilled to work with your son. and Like he's going to stay right here and he he's going to make growth. Like I can, I can guarantee it. And he did. Um, so, so okay. So are you still in the classroom or are you, how do I'm out this year? Um, I was in for a while. I took off a year when I had my first son, then I took off another year. Then the pandemic happened right when I had my baby. So I was out for two years. I went back in last year. And it's just really different out here in California. um I don't know if it's California or Los Angeles, but there's no specials. So there was no break last year at all. And that it was such a long and stressful day that I was like, I don't know that I could teach here. And that's how all the schools are set up.
00:45:01
Speaker
Um, so I'm back out this year, just doing my like reading business full-time because I can't teach out here. So, okay. So we're going to link you have a sound wall. It sounds, that sounds like too much and, and having kids and doing this on the side, actually, one of the questions can we can we ask her how she does everything? Really helpful husband. Um, and I have an, I have an assistant who like checks my emails and stays on top of my schedule and. And then honestly, like an unhealthy like lack of sleep. like I'll be up one two o'clock in the morning and I'm like, I need to go to bed but I got to finish this thing. Wow. so Wow. Good for you. Do you know your Enneagram number?
00:45:42
Speaker
I don't. Oh, I bet you're a three. Three is like the achiever. They're like, I will keep going. I will. And ADHD. Yes. The ADHD helps. Hyper focus. I'm like, I got to get this done. i'm And I'm like, oh, wow, five hours and by. That is so funny that you say that because I was just planning another episode talking about ADHD. And I was like, I think parents are so afraid of it as kids. But I'm like, as an adult, if you actually learn, it's like a superpower. That's how I feel like it is. Yes. It's so funny. I'm like, it's like I heard a podcast from a psychologist say that it's like a Lamborghini brain. And it's like just like has like you and everyone's trying to drive it like it's a Honda CRB. But if you learn how to drive it, it's like, Oh, yeah. And I'm like, now society may not always be set up and like conducive for it as like, but
00:46:32
Speaker
whatever. So you relate to a few things. There's a lot of other things that you excel at and you can get it done way better and faster than
Classroom Environment and Teacher Training
00:46:39
Speaker
anybody else. And like it has its pros and cons, but I think it has so many pros and I couldn't be doing what I do without it. A hundred percent agree. I love it. I love it. And I, I always tell parents that I'm like, your child is fine. You're like, your child is, is, is everything's great. It's like school that is not great for your child. It's a school setting. Exactly. Yep. Because like, and that's probably why so many entrepreneurs have ADHD because like they're like, Oh, I actually can work a lot. I just need to have flexibility. Right. When I can set my own hours. Exactly. Yeah. Like in a school setting, it may not be the best, but there's nothing wrong with them and they will be fine in other arenas for sure. Oh my gosh, this has to be the next episode where we talk about this yeah and writing, writing a new, maybe creating like a new school training, because can you imagine kids with any sort of neurodivergence going to school and like getting to just be how they are? Yeah. And I feel like that's how I set up my classroom and it's just such a beautiful community that I'll, I'll even fill back. So I'm like, I know it's not going to be like this next year because like I'm allowing for this or I'm understanding of this thing and
00:47:46
Speaker
It works and it's like my classroom is not chaotic by any means. um It's like we're learning. It's positive. um Everyone feels accepted. They can be themselves. Um, but that really should be a training for sure. Yeah. And I think that's also a misconception. I think people think that it means like chaotic or just like always like super hyper. And it's like, no, it's a hyper focus that you can have. And yeah just because like your child isn't like bouncing off the walls doesn't mean, and that's not necessarily, it could be what it looks like in your child. It's so many misconceptions. Yeah. but Um, but okay. The last, the thing I like to ask every guest is, um, what, if you could pick one thing in education, what would, um, your legacy be? I'll give you some examples. Lizzie, um, from workspace for kids said to outlaw homework. Um, uh, Amelia Capitosa said, uh, banning spelling tests. So what would be your one thing that you could, if you could wave a magic wand and change?
00:48:45
Speaker
Oh man. I do love the homework one, but I will have to say eliminating like bias against students. Oh, I love it. That would remove a lot of barriers. How do you have a plan on how you could do that? I don't, I don't. That'll be your next two in the morning. ad Yes. Yeah. Trainings. Yeah. Actually maybe. I feel like if that bias was gone, then the data would stick out to you of like, wait a minute, this should be alarming because the kids deserve to do better and they can do better and things like that. Yeah, that's a really good one. I think it feels like the big three things if we could like rewrite education, like the college education program, it would be like teaching about bias. And so they know how to look for it. And because then you could truly have high expectations, because I think even people with great intentions, their bias
00:49:43
Speaker
holds kids back because they're trying to be kind and say, oh, well, this is the best they could do. And they don't truly have high expectations for them because they think they're doing them a favor by not holding them up here. Yes, so that's so good. Okay, bias, um social or ah talk about like behavior management, classroom management and understanding different needs and explicit explicit reading instruction. Yes. I'm like, why isn't that the elementary degree? It would change the game. It would change the game. You know, I think Texas is doing that. I did a conference there last summer and a lot of the younger teachers that it was their first year or they were about to start teaching, they were like, this session was so great. This is what we learned and I forgot what the program was called, but there was some program they had to take.
00:50:26
Speaker
And that was the stuff that they had just learned, like the the reading academy or something like that. And I was like, oh, it was a small group of like teachers. And they were like, oh, we learned that in the reading academy. We had to just do that in the reading academy. And I was like. That's fantastic. And they were new teachers. So hopefully it's on the horizon.
Membership for Systematic Instruction
00:50:41
Speaker
It's happening. Keep sharing. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for being here. You are amazing. um Let's link. I'll link in the show notes. um Your sound wall that people can purchase, right? And yeah um two things that you mentioned. Oh, the assessment. You made an assessment, right? Yes. It's in my reading membership though. I have a membership that's like systematic. Yeah, we can do that. It's systematic. It's like,
00:51:06
Speaker
I would share my lessons and people were like, can you just come teach my class or can I have these slides? And I'm like, you can't have these slides because they're only systematic for my students because we followed a certain path. Like I can't just give this to you if you didn't do this and this and this beforehand. yeah And then they're like, well, can you just send them all to me? So I was like, let me just make this membership really quick. And oh love I try to think of everything. Yeah. it's Okay. So in your membership, what can people get? They get, they can get, so it's 46 weeks of systematic phonics instruction that also has complimentary phonemic awareness that matches. So we're working on like the sound, then the funny make awareness arch words, and then, um, there's assessments in there. There's the center work for them to do that matches the phonics element for the week to reinforce it. And then I added in. Vocabulary for the year. So tier two vocabulary for K one and two.
00:52:00
Speaker
And then this fall, I'm going to be adding in comprehension. So it was called the systematic phonics and phonemic awareness membership. And I didn't want to call it SOR because I was like, it's not truly SOR. And a lot of memberships are like the SOR membership, but it's only phonics and phonemic awareness printables. And I was like, I can't call it that knowing that I don't have all those components. But now that I've added like high frequency words that are systematic in there and fluency and I'm adding comprehension. I was like, okay, now I can call it an s SOR membership because it will truly have all of these components that the readers need. So this is something a teacher should ask their school to get them or a parent. Would you say a parent should do it at home? Okay. Parents can do it as well or gift it to a teacher. Oh, that's a great idea.
00:52:44
Speaker
I tell parents like try to pick pieces of it because like it's a full lesson and like your kids don't want to come home from school and then have like a full 40 minute reading lesson at home as well. So you can use it to supplement but definitely at school like I've had so many people just DM me and be like, Oh my goodness. Like my kids are reading. I've never had kids reading this early on in the school year. And I'm like, yeah, like it's working. Um, Oh my gosh. Wow. You are doing amazing things. I can't wait to see what you do the rest of this year. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's fun to talk.