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Ruffle Feathers, Save Lives: Making a Difference in Education with Naomi O'Brien
671 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Play On Words from Big City Readers, Beth Gaskill is joined by Naomi O’Brien, reading teacher, advocate and speaker, to talk about shaking things up in education and empowering both teachers and students to thrive.
Here’s what you can expect from this episode:
- Reflections on presenting at big conferences (and the fun moments, like talking Jonas Brothers and Boyz II Men).
- Answering your most pressing questions and the most frequently asked in both of our DMs (@bigcityreaders and @readlikearockstarteaching)
- How to share reading research effectively to support teachers.
- Helping teachers walk into the school year more confidently, especially when preparing students for important testing grades.
- Naomi’s insights on her Second Grade Reading Rescue and strategies for getting students ready for Grade 3 tests.
- Why teachers shouldn’t feel guilty—they were often misled by outdated or ineffective methods.
- Addressing the importance of critical thinking: Why some educators hesitate to question their practices.
- How to foster both urgency for students' success and empathy for teachers' challenges.
- Practical tips for stopping students from guessing words while reading and when to start formal reading instruction.
- Navigating inventive spelling: When should you correct it, and why spelling doesn’t always correlate with reading success.
- How to support emerging bilingual students and the role of speech in literacy.
- Answering questions from listeners about changing curriculum, teacher autonomy, and how to make a difference while ruffling some feathers along the way.
- Fun moments, like why babbling matters in early language development and Beth's hilarious TikTok impression.
Plus, we share Naomi’s biggest tip for getting kids ready for kindergarten and how to create a positive mindset around learning for students and teachers alike. Tune in for a conversation full of passion, practical advice, and a drive to push boundaries for the sake of our students!
Bonus Content: Download our phonological awareness assessment to help build a strong foundation for reading!
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Transcript
Joyful Reading: The Foundation of Learning
00:00:04
Speaker
I'm not going to offer content that isn't going to be easy. I was holding a newborn and making dinner. Like I'm like, you don't have to just literally look around and yeah you can't really do it wrong. Always make it fun. Like people are worried about kids hating reading. I'm like, if you're not having fun teaching it, they're not going to have fun learning it. And then they are going to associate it with these negative, stressful feelings.
Naomi O'Brien's Educational Journey
00:00:24
Speaker
Okay, welcome back to the play on words podcast. It's me miss Beth and I am back with everybody's favorite um Naomi O'Brien read like a rock star teaching because I remember I followed you when you were read like a rock star and then you gave that off to someone else. Yes.
00:00:42
Speaker
it kind of so it started out as a teaching account and that's what I wanted it to be and then it slowly turned into the social justice account which I didn't mind but then I realized it quickly became only social justice and then anytime I posted classroom things it was there was no engagement and I didn't mind it might have being both, but it ended up being forcing me into one. And then the social justice side was really draining. So I was like, I'll still speak to stuff when it calls to me. But I was like, I want to focus on just reading mostly. And, but there was like 134,000 followers that were there for social justice, like 90,000 joined in like two weeks from
00:01:19
Speaker
social justice stuff during like 2020. So I was like, well, I don't want to just change the topics and all those people fall off if that's what they're there for. So I gave it to somebody else that was willing to do that work and I was like, I will do more reading. So I added on the teaching part so that it's clear that the majority of the stuff I'm posting is going to be teaching stuff.
00:01:39
Speaker
I think that's so smart. and we I didn't ask you about that last time. I forgot about that, but that speaks to so many people in so many ways. like Obviously, you're not saying, I don't care about this, but you're saying, like is this the job that I want? like And you knew how to like protect your piece and like to yeah keep bringing your gifts and be like, I'll speak about this, but that's like such... I feel like I have not seen a lot of people do that. They'd be like, this account needs to exist, but I'm going to give it to someone else and to be smart. That's a incredible.
00:02:08
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. and It was good. I feel like it was good for everybody involved. She was excited because she was doing the work, but with a smaller audience. And I was like, it's very similar work. There's no reason why I should have this many followers that want this and then you don't. So it was a good little switcheroo. A true entrepreneur. i And that's actually probably why you are so successful outside of the classroom because I feel like a lot of people want like cookie cutter and like you thinking like that many steps ahead and like asking, okay, what do I want? What is my like goal here? Yeah, I feel like a lot of people don't think that way. So incredible. Yeah, thank you.
Innovative Teaching Conferences
00:02:46
Speaker
um Okay, wait and also I was thinking as we were chatting before this that I was like people probably want this update So you just got back from the get your teach on conference and you were a speaker Yes. So for the teachers listening, you like if they don't know what it is, like you can tell them what it is and like what you spoke about. Yeah. So it is a teaching conference. It's growing every single year. It's wild because two years ago, it was in Florida and there were 3,000 teachers. And this you know last week, it was 6,500 teachers. So it's more than double than just
00:03:17
Speaker
two years. And if you do know anything about it, it looks like a complete circus. Like there's just lights, there's performances, voice to men has been there. The judges were there. So it was like, what is happening? What does that have to do with education? And i like I was telling you, on the outside looking in, I used to have the same thoughts. And when I first joined, which is I'm going on my third year, I was like, well, I'm not going to go there and just you know stand on chairs and be silly and do backflips and they're like no that's if that's you bring that if that's what you you know have used in your classroom and you've seen it increase student scores or something like that but if you just want to speak about data or reading or research bring that too that's why we want you to be a part of it so knowing i could go there and still be myself so while yes we start off on stage dancing which is out of my element to be doing
00:04:07
Speaker
when I'm in the conference room with like 600 kindergarten teachers and I'm just sharing reading research or practices from my classroom, it's really cool to see and it's great to talk to the teachers and have them tell you like their questions or troubles they've had in the past and help them walk through it so they can go into the next school year a bit more confident. um And there's just so much feedback after about how you know for new teachers that it's something they didn't learn in college, it's something they've been struggling with. And even for veteran teachers that are just like, wow, this is the passion that I needed to go back and finish you know my last two years, or I was going to quit after this year. So I feel like the stuff that's not Instagramable is the richness and the heart of it. But of course, like the lights and the glitz and the glam, that just looks great on social media. But there really is a lot of work going on
The Great Second Grade Reading Rescue
00:04:56
Speaker
underneath the surface. So this past year,
00:04:58
Speaker
I did bringing critical thinking into content areas, like not just having it be this isolated thinking Thursday. And that's the only time you do something in critical thinking, but how to tie it into your standards. And I did that in pre-K, kinder and first grade. I did writing strategies for kinder first and second. And then they actually allowed us to pitch our own sessions. Usually they're like, Hey, I saw your Instagram page, you're good at reading, come do a reading session.
00:05:21
Speaker
But this year, we got to pitch stuff. You had to turn in your research, the standards, like the objectives, everything. It was like the Hunger Games. We were like, what's going on? And we're like, well, what are you pitching? What are you pitching? I don't want to pitch vocabulary if you are. um So they picked like the the top of the top. And I was very much wanting this session to get picked. So it was called the Great Second Grade Reading Rescue. And it was like, you have these second graders. They're very below grade level.
00:05:45
Speaker
you have to get them ready for third grade. What do you do? um And I just done that my past school year. So I was like, I really hope this gets picked. And it did. um And it went really, really well because just so many other second grade teachers in the room could understand that same struggle of, like, you got these kids, you're thinking, what did they teach you last year? And now, oh, my goodness, I have to get you ready for a and testing grade level. So I just told them, like, here's what I did to cut corners, to maximize, you know, like, this is important right now. This isn't for, like, the cards you've been dealt. And it was it was a really powerful session and people were really
00:06:19
Speaker
receptive and excited to like bring stuff back to their classroom. So that always feels good as someone who's out of the classroom right now to feel like I'm still contributing to the world of education. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I bet that was amazing. Were there any like, wow, I've never heard that question from a teacher or that story from a teacher. Do you have any like groundbreaking moments you had at that trip? It's interestingly enough, like a lot of the same story and it's like they're from all over the world and country. Like we've had a teacher fly from Australia to come to get your teacher on lots of Canadians and
00:06:52
Speaker
It's interesting and then sad how universal a lot of these same issues are, especially when a lot of the same issues are easily solvable. And you're like, oh my goodness, all you have to do is this, or if you had just been doing this, that would have never happened. So yeah, um yeah just a lot of the same thing and needing support and needing ideas that actually are backed by research and not just the curriculum they're forced to teach that isn't working, but they
Challenging Old Reading Habits
00:07:15
Speaker
don't know what to do. Like that's a lot of the issue.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, I just posted a reel about decodable readers and somebody commented like, this is my 17th year teaching and I just found out about like science backed reading practices and I'm so embarrassed. And I like almost like wanted to cry for her because I was like, that is not what we need. Like we don't need the teachers to feel bad that they also were duped and and yeah, that's the thing. Yep. Yep.
00:07:44
Speaker
which I think is like interesting about the Sold a Story podcast, which I don't know that we've talked about it, but I know most people are familiar with it, but I think that Sold a Story podcast, I'm always like, oh, there's another way it's Sold a Story. like It's like not just about like the parents being sold a story or like the teachers going to school. It's like everyone has been sold a story.
00:08:05
Speaker
ye And then I think so many people, like now they're learning, okay, this isn't the right way, but now they don't necessarily know or trust the other way to do it because it's like, well, I already believe that story. So who's to say that this isn't another gimmick as well.
00:08:19
Speaker
Yeah, you know what? I've not thought this through this analogy, but I had a friend. I remember I was once saying to, and I used an analogy of training a dog. Like if you're like, don't jump on the couch, don't jump on the couch, don't jump on the couch for years and years and years. And then all of a sudden you're like, come on, jump on the couch. Well, the dog is not just going to jump on the couch.
00:08:36
Speaker
I used that with him. like he was like trying to He's like, why isn't this working? And I was like, because it's years and years and years of this. So it's just like that with teachers that like it if you're like, okay, here's the research, it's not like so easy to just like believe it because those grooves in our brain have been like, No, this is the way it is. And and most people probably aren't wired to like be kind of inquisitive. like Is this wrong? They believe the institutions that they're working with. Yes, agreed. And I think that there's enough successful students that they're like, well, it must work in some capacity. It's these other kids, you know what I mean? So they're there's the thought that, like well, this works for these kids, and this works for these kids. And it's like, no, the research will work for everybody. So yeah, there's a bit of that.
00:09:21
Speaker
I was um at a party with my sister this weekend and she has four kids and she like lives in the suburbs. I live in the city and like, so it was really funny. We were at the end of the night. It was like midnight. We're all hanging out and she, this this dad says to me like, you look so familiar. And my sister was like,
00:09:40
Speaker
Oh, you probably know her. Like she, well, she goes, actually, let me back up. Do you know? She's like, we are incredibly privileged because like we all in like our community have tutors and have like the ability to teach our kids how to read. But did you know that like most of the United States is like under this big microscope and like there's this, like all this stuff's happening and it was so funny because it was midnight and I was like,
00:10:04
Speaker
I was watching her and I was like, is this what people think when I talk? Okay, we get it. I just really asked like, why do like, have I met you before? Like, and in like do you feel like that ever that you're like, I'm like, this is the only thing I think about and everyone else is like, Oh, it's like, I feel like the the magnitude, there's like such like a different like a scale, right? Like, so I like want to be like,
00:10:30
Speaker
jumping in where I'm at with talking about like all that we know and talk about. But then there's like people that are like, wait, what are you? do I've never even heard about this. And then yeah it's like, Oh, how do I scale this back? But like, I can't like slowly start talking about do you feel like that? That is a huge problem of mine, because and i'm like it's such an urgent matter. And I need you to like know this urgency, pick it up quickly and make these changes as quickly as you can to make a difference.
00:10:56
Speaker
And it's like people are not there and you can't force them to be there. You're going to overwhelm them or burn them out. But it's like, yes, like create, take your time taking this in. But also these kids are in front of you and they need this right now. Not when you like, you know, get it three years later, like we got to go. Like, so yeah, that urgency is always there for me. But then it's hard because people take time to change and shift and grow.
00:11:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I just saw someone say the other day that they're like, um, I have never met somebody who has changed their strong opinion from somebody like shaming them on the internet. And I'm like, Oh, I hate, like I have to remember that. like Not only do we have to talk about it, but we also have to talk about it in a way that's understandable. and We also have to talk about it in a way that's like approachable. And it's just like, Oh,
00:11:41
Speaker
That's so funny. My friend Brittany Hagee says that all the time. Like, she's like, no, you have to inspire people, like inspiring people. Like, what gets the changes? Like, I know, but also, like, there's just something about like, you're doing this wrong, change it right now. And here's why you should change it. But I do agree that we don't need more teacher shame. And we do want teachers to be inspired to change. But sometimes when they're just kind of dragging their feet, you're like, let's go. like These kids need it and deserve it. And it's it's such a huge problem. And I think that's the part that I feel like people don't get. So it's like, I have to stress that part. like Kids are getting their lives ruined. you know The school to prison pipeline is alive and well. And every year that we wait to learn the research or change your practice in our classroom, those kids just get trickled along, and they're falling further behind. So it's like, I have that urgency for the kids, but I also have that empathy for the teachers.
00:12:32
Speaker
I don't know, we got to meet in the middle. Like, let's go people. I know. Actually, it's it's so hard because, you know, have you heard about like, what about ism, like on the internet that like, so it's I feel like I sometimes stop posting something because or I like change my caption because I'm sharing this tip. And then I'm like, well, people are going to think that I'm saying that it's a teacher's fault. And so I have to add this. kind And then I'm like, well, then I'm losing the message by being like, yes, you know, it's just like,
00:13:01
Speaker
So I've started to kind of get in this perspective that it's like, if a teacher is hurt, like I can have a conversation with them and say, I understand that you feel this was ah ah directed at you, but it's actually about kids. And like, do you think that like maybe you could think about that this isn't personally me trying to attack you? Like, I i also paid for a college education that didn't teach me like, yes, you, I, but we can't like worry about our own feelings right now when we have over the kids right and I'm right there with you and I think I used to try to like change a little bit because I used to get comments like oh so let's just blame the teachers then and it's like well for some of this kind of yeah you know like it's um as like it's sad that it's honest it's like but we are the ones in front of these kids and it does suck that we aren't sent to the proper training sometimes like but there are avenues we can take to teach ourselves and learn something different when the data isn't lining up
00:13:55
Speaker
The kids haven't been reading instead of just continuing. to blame the kids, especially when you see something different. i think even My husband and I always talk about this like in the medical field about how much stuff changes even year to year. like He's like, oh my goodness, like this medication used to always be given. He's like, if someone was in liver failure, it used to always give blah, blah, blah, blah. But they noticed that it was making like something happen to the kidneys. he's like so He's like, it's so hard for me to stop and think because I've done this for years, but now they have to give some different medication. And I was like, I wish education was like that. People that brag about doing the same thing for the past 20 years or 10 years or five years, like
00:14:28
Speaker
New research and studies are always coming out. we We should be constantly changing and growing and not just sticking to the same old, same old, which clearly isn't doing our country any favor. So it can be hard, but I'm I mean, maybe it's unpopular to say, but like I'm always going to ride for the students first and push the teachers to be better. you know like the The students can't stop and say, hey, you're not teaching me properly. I researched this. But like we can say, oh, my goodness, I researched this thing, or I saw this thing. I read more about it. And sad that we have to do it on our own time, but I'm going to make a difference this year because I see what's going ah on around me. I listened to Soul to Story, and I want to be different instead of just saying, well, like what do they expect from us? like
00:15:09
Speaker
You're the teacher. We have to take a little bit more responsibility, I feel.
Learning from Other Fields
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah. And the medical connection that you've just made is like, it makes a lot of sense too, because you know, I always am wary of people that are like, Oh, you know, not always digging. and And I know that it's like a lot that you always have to be learning, but it's like, even doctors, it's not like they know everything. Like I've had plenty of things that I've gone in that I've researched and then been like, could this be this? And then they're like, Oh yeah. Like just because they have,
00:15:42
Speaker
training like then they can they have like the resources to help you through that but like they aren't Automatically like most doctors aren't automatically gonna scan for like every single thing and so just like with teaching like just because you've got that degree doesn't mean like you have everything that you need like you kind of do always need to be like learning and like looking up best practices and Yeah, agreed. Yeah Okay, so we have some questions from the audience. You too. Okay, so we both put up a question box and I thought we could just kind of like answer a couple. like Yeah.
00:16:23
Speaker
The first one I have is a really good one. And Allison asked, how do you get kids to stop guessing words? And I think this is a good one to start because we both talk a lot about like, don't let kids just memorize or guess like, nip it right in the bud. So she says that kids will say words like a instead of the when they're like reading a passage in first grade. So what are your thoughts on that?
00:16:50
Speaker
the I love that she gave the grade level because I was wondering what the grade level was. So first, it would make me wonder if guessing was acceptable in kindergarten because for a lot of these kids, you realize it's just this automatic response. They almost check out of scanning the letters because they haven't had to attend to them. So they often told, you know, like, think about what makes sense. So they, if that's how they were trained to read,
00:17:13
Speaker
then that's what they're going to do. And sometimes when they switch that word out, which doesn't look anything like the word that they said, if it still makes sense, they'll just go with it. um So I think for a lot of my students that I see doing that, like when I just recently did second grade, it was covering the pictures.
00:17:30
Speaker
And also, literally just telling them, like, you're not looking at the words, like, readers read, readers don't guess, readers don't just talk, like, look at the letters, like, Hmm, I heard you say A, but I'm looking at this word. And it starts with a TH, h you know, like, go back to that and just constantly making sure that you're pushing them back to attending to the letters and sounds that they make. To get rid of that, just automatic response of guessing or plugging in something that makes sense because they were possibly taught to do that. Just say anything that makes sense if you don't know the words or even like skip it and come back instead of learning to attack it you know with your reading skills and decoding skills. They either look at the picture or they just guess and keep it moving.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah, I like that you said, um like say, you said A but I C T H. That is such like a small thing, but so powerful, I think for people to hear because it's not that you're saying like, Nope, that was wrong. But you're literally like giving them the phrasing and of how to ask what they're reading instead of just saying like, Nope, like not saying that's the, but saying, I see this. Yeah.
00:18:35
Speaker
and So you're like helping them start to tell that to go back and find I'm like, wait, you said a i'm like point to the word a and like they they go back to scan and they're like, it's not there. And I'm like, okay, let's try that again, my friend, because I don't know what happened. Yeah. And I think like you can like get kind of silly about it. I remember I used to always be like, when kids would like look at me, I'd be like, oh no, are the letters on my face? And you know like just because it's like yes parents and teachers, ah somewhere like we get this like kind of like stressful thing about like reading like and like you know like this panic. And I think that we can make it lighthearted. If you're like, OK, where's A? Show me A. And they're like, I can't find A.
00:19:13
Speaker
it disappeared you know and kind of make it like yeah that's what i tell parents and teachers i't like make it fun always make it fun like people are worried about kids hating reading i'm like if you're not having fun teaching it they're not going to have fun learning it and then they are going to associate it with these negative stressful feelings keep it fun, keep it light and like teach them. Yes. Okay. That just reminded me of something that another person asked. And then I want to, yeah I know that I heard some of your questions that people asked and I can't wait to get into those, but somebody asked about um like, what are your thoughts on um how ah some other countries wait to start teaching reading until kids are like seven?
00:19:53
Speaker
I have seen that before. And I always wonder how that works out. So while I've read about that, I haven't gone on to see like, okay, well, like as adults, are they like right where they need to be. But then I've also considered that if they haven't had any formal reading instruction, and there's nothing to unteach, then maybe that's not a bad thing. Because I can get a second grader to read half the struggle is undoing bad habits, like they say the letter sounds wrong or they're so ingrained in them to guess.
00:20:23
Speaker
that it makes it harder because you're like, oh my goodness, like you're saying this sound wrong or you already guessed this word, like you're just so used to it. So if they haven't had anything to like unteach and it's just a fresh blank slate, I can see it working. I can too. And I, when you said formal reading instruction, I also think like when people say that, I'm like, I bet though they have had a lot of like phonological awareness. Like so that, I think that would play a lot into it. I can see that. Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah. I feel like, cause I've seen like some accounts that talk about it and it's like, we've done no formal reading instruction, but then I'm like, well, are you doing like rhyming games like, or reading rhyming? Like, so I'm like, I'm sure. I think like if, if they were having like all of those like foundational skills, not explicit instruction, then like, I could see that that would be a great to start and be like, they're ready and they're going to know the sounds the right way. Yeah. I can see that working for sure. Yeah.
Bridging Reading and Spelling Gaps
00:21:22
Speaker
Okay, what what questions do you have over there? Okay, one ah a lot were the same, like I was telling you, just where do I start? But one question I really would love for us to talk about was, my students can read pretty well, but they're still not spelling. um And I'm not sure where the disconnect is, where the kids are reading, but not spelling.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yes. I feel like I always tell either if I'm doing a professional development at a school or if I'm like working with a parent, I'm like, I actually can tell more about where they're at with their spelling than like hearing them read sometimes. Do you feel that?
00:21:57
Speaker
Agreed. ye but You see a student's writing and you're like, oh, you don't know this grapheme where you haven't been taught this phonics skill yet. like and You can just already see like where to start, like get your diagnosis and you're like, I see that we need to go back to short vowels. You're missing quite a bit. I feel like looking at like ah just like a couple of sentences is like a so like a magic. like I'm like, I can see everything now. Yes.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes. And I think it would do teachers a lot of good to like understand that as well, and know exactly where to start just based on that spelling. Yeah. Was this a parent or a teacher? Do you know? Teacher, because they said my students. Oh, yeah. And yeah, and I'm like, that is why I was like, we can't teach reading and then just assume the spelling is going to follow like encoding and decoding go hand in hand. So you know, emphasize those spelling skills and the spelling roles while you're teaching that phonics skill and then the skills can grow together. Yeah. And okay, so would where do you think that comes from? Like, do you think that if that child is like, if those two things aren't really aligning, do you think it's because they're not really having explicit instruction? Or what do you think? I think it definitely comes from the lack of explicit instruction of
00:23:14
Speaker
you know, explicitly tying those things together. And also I feel like I see reading instruction, like decoding instruction happening separately. And then the spelling list is something different and random. It might be the vocabulary words from the unit that they're in that go along with the theme. And it's not necessarily tied to the phonics elements they're working in. I've seen a lot of change around that, but there still isn't enough where they really are focusing on like,
00:23:40
Speaker
the phonics element and like when to use this grapheme and how often it's used and the frequency of it um so they're not really putting two and two together and then the spelling is just practice for that week for the spelling test and then forgotten about and it's not really used to you know boost their reading. You know what I mean? like They just don't use it to work together. And I know in my classroom, some like I'll let certain spelling things go. But once I've taught you this skill, I will let them know this is now an expectation. Moving forward, I don't want to see like spelled lick anymore. Add that silent E. We all know it's OK, not a C. So I'm not like, I lick you, L-I-C. Let's get it together. like This is the new expectation because we just spent all this time learning about magical E.
00:24:25
Speaker
Yes, I always tell that to parents like I when they're like when should you correct inventive spelling and I'm like when you hold them accountable when they have been taught like it's not like it's just it's not like just at one point in your life you just know how to spell every word like you have to be taught and I to me I feel like I'm like sometimes I'm like delusional that I'm like What do you mean? Like, do you think that people just know how to spell every word by the time that they're seven? Like, have you taught them? But I think there's a huge disconnect between home and school where like, parents don't really know what they're being taught, and they don't know what to look for. And so they're like,
00:25:02
Speaker
Agreed. Like if you think about it, like we really, if we're giving kids spelling tests and that's the only like spelling instruction that they're having, then we should really be only holding them accountable to the words that have been on the spelling test, which is what? Exactly. worth year ye exactly Like no one would get anywhere in life. but Agreed, agreed. And I think there's the misconception that if they can read it, that they can spell it. And it's like, it has to be explicitly taught. It's not like you've read this word a thousand times.
00:25:32
Speaker
Okay, well, how many of us can say that about so many other words and then you still, as an adult, wouldn't know how to spell it? Like, if you haven't had explicit practice spelling it, sounding it out, you know, working out the syllables, all that stuff. So, yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
yeah I can read it, but I cannot. Right. But yeah, but if it was studied and you know, like someone was like, okay, this rules here for here, like the E in the eye. But yes, I think it just goes, I'm always like, when I see those complaints about like, well, they can't do this and they can't do that. I'm like,
00:26:02
Speaker
I always say, like, how much time did you give teaching it? And it's always like, oh, like, I think we went over it. OK, but you didn't really teach it. So of course they don't know it. Like, there's so much like they can't do this. And it's like, well, what did you teach them to do? Like, that's usually what they're going to be able to do. And it's more explicit than I think we grew up with. So it's hard when they're in the classroom and don't think about having this formal spelling time or really making those connections.
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah. And i I think too that a tip that I usually give, especially with the younger grades, but is like, I don't do too much correction on like too many different rules. Like, so for example, if I'm like seeing, you know, like a bunch of silent ease, like that's what I'm going to kind of focus on, but I'm not going to go in and be like, Oh, you know, this pattern, you know, this pattern, you know, this pattern. Like I feel like that can kind of overwhelm the child and then kind of make them not really want to write. Yeah.
00:26:56
Speaker
Oh, hey, it's me interrupting myself to tell you if you're liking what you're listening to, then you're probably going to love my big city readers on demand courses. If you've ever wondered why is that word spelled with a G and not a J, well, it's not just random. There's a reason for that. And you'll learn that in my spelling rules for second graders course. If you've ever wondered what letters to teach in what order to your preschooler, yeah, I teach you that in my preschool course too.
00:27:21
Speaker
If you've ever wondered what your kindergartners should be able to write or draw or if your toddler scribbles matter and how to guide them to the next step. Yep. You guessed it. All of my on demand courses teach you exactly how to do this. I am sort of obsessed with talking about the learning to read and write journey because I feel like there's so much misinformation about it. So I've dedicated my life to making sure that there's more clear cut fun information.
00:27:48
Speaker
And you can help your child and yourself by getting one of these courses. They are jam-packed into 15-minute on-demand lessons. And you're going to feel all confident. Your child's going to feel confident. And be warned, this is no exaggeration. At least 20 parents have told me that at parent-teacher conferences, their teacher has said, oh, are you a reading specialist with the kind of questions they ask? So you're going to learn a lot. Your child's going to learn a lot. You're both going to feel confident. I promise you.
00:28:18
Speaker
Um, this is really all I think about ever. Oh, I sound kind of boring when I say it like that. But anyway, check out the big city readers on demand courses. Let me know if you need any help deciding what the right course for your child is.
00:28:30
Speaker
and also like let me know how the lessons are going if you're already doing them. Okay, back to the
Effective Spelling Instruction Strategies
00:28:35
Speaker
episode. So I kind of am like, okay, like pick like one thing that you're going to zero in on, especially like the first grade parents, like really then talk about that rule, like, Oh, you know, magic E or like, you know, the CK ending and just help them correct. Instead of just saying, Nope, that's not how you spell it.
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, I also think like they're saying it's so easy to like just be like, here's how to spell it or like, Oh, no, you spelled it wrong. And like, yeah, that really doesn't do anything. No, it doesn't clearly because then they keep spelling it wrong. Yeah. yes Yeah. What are your thoughts on inventive spelling?
00:29:09
Speaker
I'm a fan of it. If I can understand what they were trying to say, like and I haven't explicitly like really taught that thing yet, I'm there for it, for sure, if I can still work it out. And then something I love to do is like about or something like that, and they'll use like the O.W. or something. If I see the same mistake that keeps coming up with a lot of kids, we'll stop and have a moment around that.
00:29:29
Speaker
on like how to spell that word right if I'm like okay this is a word we're going to be using a lot like the or you like I don't want to see why you like stop and teach about it but for just the random words I use every once in a while if I can figure out what you were trying to say and you you were truly using your phonics skills like I'll take it agree love it yeah give us another one Another one that I thought was a great one was I have students that can sound out words when I say them, but they can't sound it out when they work by themselves.
00:30:02
Speaker
oh I'm like, I want to have callers on the line because I want to be like, how do you know if they're working by themselves? That's true. Okay. So this teacher is thinking like, okay, if she's, I'm trying to paint the picture for people listening of of what is probably happening here, that they are able to do it when they're like slowly having the adult with them, but then on their own, they're kind of just like not able to read it.
00:30:29
Speaker
It sounds like when the teacher sounds it out, the student can like blend it back, but that, you know, I wouldn't sound out about, but like, if she says it slow, then he can do it. Okay. Which for me, this immediately made me think of my students that are emerging bilinguals, that sometimes their accent impacts it, or even like my speech students where their speech impacts what they're hearing themselves. So that's always like the go to for me when I noticed that my students are
00:31:01
Speaker
having kind of similar issues of being like, okay, we need to really pay attention to your pronunciation and make sure you're saying the sounds right when they're working alone and trying to spell on their own. Yeah. So then would you do like more of like, kind of like, um, put the sounds that you're noticing that they're struggling with, like in a card deck and like practice those sounds in isolation? I've done that. And I've also like done the mirror work where I'm like, look where your tongue is, look where my tongue is, or even just told them you have an accent. Um, so you have to really like,
00:31:31
Speaker
listen a little bit closer because listen how it sounds when I say it and you say it and um like it'll it'll take time and that's a great thing that you have an accent you know like not make them feel bad about it but like it is going to sound a little bit different it is going to impact your spelling and your reading for a little bit but just practice will make progress.
00:31:48
Speaker
I was talking with some friends from Australia the other day, and I was explaining what I did. And then we were you know just like trying out different accents. And I was like, I actually like read that accents are really just like your mouth and tongue placements. So like and that's why it's so important to, well, this is what I always say then to baby parents. it's like That's why like babbling matters and like having them look at you. like They literally learn to put their lips together and move their tongue. And like these songs.
00:32:15
Speaker
are like strengthening the back of their tongue and the front of their lips, but I, we were like trying it and then they could speak with an American accent because I was like, watch my mouth and mimic the sounds. And then their accent was gone. And then I was like trying it. I was like really like watching their mouths and I was like, okay. And I, I like watched them and I was like, ah, Renard. And I like was I did it. Like, it was just like, you know, I was like, ah right Yeah, that's so interesting. I know. So try ah watching people's mouths and seeing if you can mimic their accent. I'm horrible at accents, but maybe that's why. It's like, it's but kind of been like now and I actually saw a girl on TikTok that was like, I can do this really good impression, but my face looks crazy when I do it. And she and did this like crazy accent, but her lips were like so squished. And I was like, so there's the sounds yeah, I love that. Aren't used to doing that. So try it later.
Addressing Pronunciation Challenges
00:33:09
Speaker
I will. I will, I will. But yeah, I think that can be the case there. I wonder what else that could be with a student that working by themselves isn't sounding out the words. I think maybe just not even knowing the letters with the sounds with automaticity. So they're struggling to even think of the sound. Like you just said the sounds so they can blend them. So they clearly have the blending skills. But if they don't have all the letter sounds perfectly, then that's going to be a struggle as well.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah. I always tell teachers and parents, like don't be afraid to go back a step. Like if you think like, Oh, they're in second grade and they know like all of these words, but like, don't be afraid to like do a couple of like days of drills of like the sounds and like doing the sounds in sand and then like, you know, practicing, building some words with the sounds that they're struggling with just to like, kind of like, it's just kind of like stretching. Sometimes, you know, if you're like running,
00:34:00
Speaker
You know, like if i' if I'm a runner, which I'm not, I have been before, but like, you know, like sometimes you're like, Oh, I've been running for so long. Like I don't need to stretch. And then you pull something and then like your runs are slower and you need to stretch more. And then like you're yeah back to your regular pace because you've stretched. So yes, I love that comparison. Yeah. Pull back, pull back the arrow and then to shoot it forward.
00:34:26
Speaker
yeah especially with those older kids you know thinking like, oh, well, you you already know this. I'm like, well, if it's been a while, maybe they need that refresher. Yes. I also, whenever like kids I'm working with older kids, I'm like, I i will. like So this is for like the teachers and the parents. like You could say, I know this seems like you already know this, but this is like stretching. like We need to like stretch this muscle and like kind of use that analogy for them. So they're not like, this is easy. I hate this. I know why I do this. No, you don't. Yeah, yeah agreed, agreed.
00:35:02
Speaker
Yeah. OK. Another question that came in was, um and I'm dying to know your thoughts on this, was from a teacher who is in kindergarten. um Well, she teaches kindergarten. She's not in kindergarten. um She said, what do you recommend? she's still like Her curriculum is still having her do um Reader's Workshop and having like students do like a rotation of Read to Self. And they're in kindergarten. And she's like, what would you recommend instead? OK.
00:35:32
Speaker
just break away from doing it? Or she's saying, I have to do this. How do I make it work? She said she has to do it. And she's like, she said, I asked her a couple of, I did ask follow up questions to her yeah because I was like, well, can you just like close your door and not? Yeah. like I would do whole group instruction instead. Like I wouldn't even like, I get that you want to do like small groups, but like I would for the first half of the year, just like maybe do like whole group instruction. is literally What are they over there reading?
00:36:00
Speaker
I'm like 1.40 for 20 minutes. In August. Yeah, I hate it because it's just not a great use of their time. I was just talking with a group of teachers about this like two weeks ago of like the number one mistakes teachers make. And I think it's like wasting so much class time on stuff that doesn't move the students forward, but kind of thinking it does because it's reading adjacent. Like, oh, well, they're holding a book, so it must be doing something. And it's like, no, like 20 minutes?
00:36:27
Speaker
like that's prime time you know in a kindergarten classroom where you could actually be doing something that's super effective. So yeah it would just be to not do that and you know bring the research. I'm always like I really hope that if you brought research to a principal and said how this was ineffective and how not that it just flat out I'm not doing it but instead of doing this here's what I'm going to do instead I would hope that a principal would be like okay yeah like let's see how that goes if it's researched and You can see how it's going to work better than what you are currently doing, which is having kindergarteners that can't read sit for 20 minutes with a book because they're going to be. and and I've seen it. They're going to be rolling around. They're going to be ripping pages or just going to be sitting there talking to each other and then looking at pictures and guessing. They're just going to be developing poor reading habits. So.
00:37:17
Speaker
Yeah. I was looking for the for her follow-up questions. I couldn't i couldn't find. but so So she said that she's trying to be able to change, but she's still expected to have Reader's Workshop. Yikes. The answer is yikes. The answer is yeah. And I think for me, I don't know if she's a newer teacher. I think it's sometimes hard for me to go back to those times where maybe I wasn't more willing to push back. But it's easier now for me to be like, No, absolutely not. I wouldn't do it. Like I had benchmark at my last school and I was like, I'm not teaching this didn't touch it, you know, just did my own thing. But that's easier as like an 11 year bet to say like, I'm not doing that. Here's what I'm doing instead with confidence to your administrator than if you were a newer teacher and you're not really sure what alternative things to do or like
00:38:05
Speaker
what might work with your kids. So I can definitely understand that, but if you know that it's not helpful and
Encouraging Educational Innovation
00:38:11
Speaker
you know you're it's not moving your kids, then I think we as the people, like the adult in the room have to make that executive decision that I'm not doing this, this doesn't make sense.
00:38:21
Speaker
um i like I have a post where I'm like, if your math books at two plus two equals five, would you teach it just because they said, well, it's in the math book. The district said to do this. And adults always laugh. And I'm like, but it's what we do in reading all the time. You know, it's not working. It seems a little bit off. And then you say, I have to teach it. you You don't. And you would never teach two plus two equals five just because admin said to do it. You would say, OK, the book says this, but here's how we're going to do it here. like I have to teach you the truth and what's right. And I would hope that when we see practices like that,
00:38:51
Speaker
that are so inappropriate for kindergartners, we could make tweaks and do the same thing. God, I feel like I'm gonna cry. Actually, I was just thinking about this as you were talking. like i Imagine if you said to people, like if you asked like a room full of teachers that are like resistant to this, and you said, okay, what if you knew two plus two does not equal five, but you're gonna teach every kid, and there's like a higher percentage of you convincing these kids that two plus two is five, and you're basically just drilling it and drilling it and drilling it, and the way you're drilling it is actually like making them more likely
00:39:25
Speaker
to go to prison when they grow up, and you're just doing it. Like, nobody would be like, everyone be like, that's a ridiculous example. Like, that is not what's happening. It's like, but it is yeah, that's a really powerful way when you put it like that, like you taught them that in kinder, then they hear it again in first, and they hear it again in second grade. And even though you know, it's slightly wrong, you do it anyway, not even slightly wrong, completely wrong. You do it anyway. And I think that's where I can kind of like disconnect and not be able to understand because i'm people will say like, oh, it's not the same. But I'm like, it is though, you know, it's not working. we ah The research shows us this isn't working. So it is as cut and dry as two plus two equaling five in certain reading practices just being ineffective. um So that's where it's scary because they don't see that some things are just plain wrong and shouldn't be happening.
00:40:17
Speaker
And I think that's where like the like, no, like you just got to do this urgency comes in. It's like, I don't have time to inspire. I just have to tell you you're wrong and you need to do better.
00:40:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's wow. It's wild. Yeah. So, okay. So just shut your door and do something different and be the adult in the room. It makes me mad though. Also like for women that I'm like, I feel like a lot of teachers are women and like, that it's like, like that the thing that people say is, well, I don't want to get in trouble and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. And it's like, grow up.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah, ruffle the feathers for the kids, you know, like, yeah, like, but it's like, I am thinking like first year teachers, it would be so intimidating to like, say to your principal, like, no, this isn't right. But it's like, Come on, no, we can do this. Yes, yes. Which that just reminded me of a story from Get Your Teach On. Oh, yeah. So they have something called Magic Squad, which is teacher volunteers that come and just help out the conference. And like, they get a free ticket in exchange. And they can like,
00:41:15
Speaker
pop into sessions, even though they're also kind of like volunteering and helping in some of the rooms. But ah a teacher, she's like a second or third year teacher. She came up to me this summer and she was like, I don't know if you remember me, but we had a conversation in Vegas in January, I get your teach on. And her whole school was still memorizing sight words.
00:41:31
Speaker
And she's like, I sat in on your session and it really inspired me to bring this back, but I'm a new teacher. I don't think they're going to listen to me. And I was like, you know what? Like I've been that new teacher that was doing stuff in my classroom that I saw fantastic results from that were backed by research and up against these other vets, it's intimidating. I was like, do it anyway. I was like, I would say to, you know, tell them about it. They may or may not listen, but then also lead by example. And then when your data shows what your data shows, they're going to come asking you.
00:41:58
Speaker
Um, anyway, she was at the conference a few weeks ago or last week and she was like, I don't know if you remember me, but she's like, I went back and I did what you said. And she's like, yeah. And at the end of the year, my principal talked to me about what I was doing. She's like, and now it's the new expectation for everyone next year, this coming school year to have a sound wall and to teach phonics explicitly. And they're not allowed to do that. I was like, what? I was like, you did that. Like, and she's going into her third year of teaching. So like,
00:42:23
Speaker
New or old, like make a difference, ruffle feathers. and's like Because your data will speak for itself. like I'm thinking about last year, when I didn't touch any of the curriculum, was like, even if someone came in here, I'm willing to show them. But look at my students. like Yes, I ignored you know your reading program, but look at what they're doing. No one's going to be like, nope, I don't care. Go back to the results that were like failing.
00:42:45
Speaker
It's like, if you're doing the right thing and your kids are growing, your admin is going to respect that. And they're going to be asking you, what are your secrets? How can we get more kids, you know, on this path? So I think maybe the fear is, well, I thought this was right. So what if this is also wrong? But yeah that's where just knowing the research comes in, you know.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah. And like having like the right heart behind it. Like yeah I like done a lot of digging about this. Like I would love to try it like in the name of helping all the students in our school. And I am like a little bit nervous about sharing this because I am newer at this, but like, I would love your support on this. Like I think like, I mean, they might say no, but it's like,
00:43:26
Speaker
Okay, then try it anyway. Prove them wrong. Yes, that's my motto. Prove them wrong. I love it. Prove them wrong. Yay. Wow. um Okay, let's do like two more, one or two more questions if you have time. Let's see. Another one of mine is just an overwhelming majority of them were something along the lines of where do you start? And this was mostly parents. It's like, I have my kid at home or I want to get them ready. I don't want them to fall behind. Where do I start with reading or even They know the ABCs, but they can't read. What do I do now? yeah Was like the vibes. Okay. Okay.
Fun Foundations in Reading Prep
00:44:00
Speaker
So I always say start with like, okay, this is like where it gets tricky because I always say start with reading to your kids. And then I'm like, but I'm not saying that there's going to be osmosis of, they're going to learn to read from you reading to them.
00:44:15
Speaker
But like I'm thinking, when i when people ask where to start, I'm thinking like of their two-year-old or three-year-old. like So reading, I always say, reading rhyming books, singing rhyming songs. And like the like this is like the very, very, very simplest starting spot is like I always say, just stop before you say the rhyming word in the book or the song.
00:44:33
Speaker
and like give it five seconds and so they start to like have that first rhyme and then just like kind of like changing up songs like I always sing like happy birthday to the letters but then I like change all the beginning sounds to a different letter like happy birthday poo poo and like yeah again getting silly and I'm like some people like I don't want potty words and I'm like listen potty words are gonna make it stick it is they do yes that's i agree my very first starting spot I tell people I think I agree with you, and then I think it's hard because that doesn't seem like it's connected to reading, you know what I mean? And I tell people, I was like, no, you can't see the changes. It is working on things in their brain that's going to make it so much easier for them. And then all they have to do is learn certain graphemes, and then they'll be able to apply it to anything. I was like, but those are the skills that they need. This is even the reason that I was such a strong reading teacher since back in the days, because
00:45:31
Speaker
there was a green section, I think we talked about this in our curriculum that did you know rhyming in the syllables and alliteration and all these silly little things and changed the beginning sound. And my team leaders would tell me to skip that. And I didn't skip it. And I had like the best reading growth. And I was like, I really think it was the green section.
00:45:47
Speaker
And I did it you know even more next year. And then I started looking into it and learned that it was actually called Phonological Awareness. And this is back in 2010. And I was like, oh my goodness. it's like And I would always tell people, like this is the secret sauce. But it was like, no, we got to get them to learn all these sight words. We don't have time for that stuff. like it's just It seems silly. But I'm like, this is the stuff that's changing their brains into reading brains. So like the ability to hear those rhymes and hear those sounds and put things together and manipulate, you know like delete sounds, add sounds.
00:46:16
Speaker
that is the set they should be working on. And if you can do it at a young age and just, again, make it fun, keep it silly. You don't have to sit there for an hour, because people will say that all like post my four-year-old sometimes like, how do you get him to sit there? I'm like, well, we're not sitting there for 30 minutes. It's here and there, or we're on a walk. And I'm like pointing out stuff and saying the sounds of the stuff that we see or in the grocery store. Like it's really small little moments that we're just keeping fun, you know, like, or go get your shoes. And it's like, what? And you know, like,
00:46:46
Speaker
labeling what we're having for dinner, like yeah you know donut or rice. All those little things are going to add up over time. But I think it's hard to be consistent when you don't know where it's headed. But I'm like, just trust the process. like It really is doing a lot of work in their brains that you can't see until you can.
00:47:07
Speaker
Yeah, and I have posted some things like with my nieces and nephews and I am like, okay, so my sister has four kids and so I'm i'm over
Practical Phonological Awareness
00:47:14
Speaker
there. We live like a couple minutes apart and I'm over there like basically every other day and they're like,
00:47:19
Speaker
I remember being like, okay, I challenged myself with making content. So I have her newborn and I have her three-year-old and I have her six-year-old and I have her eight-year-old. And I'm like, what can I do while I'm making dinner for all of them? And like they actually love it. So actually it it was Halloween and I had Hugo, her three-year-old, i was like he was sorting his candy. And then I was like, okay, we got to put all the candy back. And so I was like, okay, now you need to put in the picks and he's like, I don't have a picks, but I have a Twix and like, you know, then they like, we so I was just like changing the beginning sounds. And then for like her older kids, they're like, give me one, give me one. And, you know, I would be like, okay. And I would like talk in a robot for the six year old about like breaking apart syllables. And then the eight year old, I was like, you know, change, like doing the phoneme deletion and stuff. And so I was like, okay, like I need you, you know, to hand me a
00:48:11
Speaker
split like, and I was like, but change the it to an A and she's like plate, you know, like play like that. And it's really just that easy, like to get it in like that. And it's doing so much work for them. And it's like, I mean, like I was like, I literally like, I'm like, I'm not going to offer content that isn't going to be easy. I was holding a newborn and making dinner. Like I'm like, you don't have yeah just literally look around and yeah you can't really do it wrong.
00:48:35
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Just do it. Just you know it and do it consistently. Yeah, yeah do it consistently. I agree. And like, it like, even it's like, it's like a couple of minutes. I always say to people, like 10 words, like if you can't think, and I do have, I'll link it in the show notes, but I do have like some of these beginning games and a free download, but I always am like, if I'm stuck on a word,
00:48:53
Speaker
or like thinking of it, I'm like, pick a category. So like pick colors, pick insects, like, so, okay, yeah or pick fruit. If I'm doing fruit, like I'm like, okay, say grapefruit, but don't say fruit. And then actually though, funny story is one time I was not really thinking and I was showing people this example and I was like, you know, and then the next level would be like, you know, say grape, but don't say, good then I was like, wait, actually, sorry, don't say that.
00:49:17
Speaker
yes You're like, wait, wait, wait. I'm kidding. That's not the word I wanted you to say. But, you know, like, say, grape, but change A to IH. And, like, people are like, oh, is it gripe? And I'm like, no, I said IH. You know, like, parents are like, is it gripe? I'm like, you're seeing it with the E. You're thinking about the spelling, right? Not the sounds, yep.
00:49:37
Speaker
And so I always tell parents as I'm like, listen, and you're going to say this to your kids too. Like when they make that same mistake, you say like, isn't it so hard? We want to say it how it's spelled, but we're actually just telling our brain to just listen for the sounds and it's trickier. And I feel like that like gets the kids that are like, well, I know how to spell it. And it's like, well, this part's tricky or you have to tell tell your brain to slow down.
00:49:58
Speaker
I love that. Yep. Yes to all of that. Everyone like just do this. I'm telling you, it doesn't have to be as hard as we make it out to be. It can, doing that at home before they ever start like kinder or pre-K, they're going to be so prepared for school. It's not even funny.
00:50:15
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Last question I have for you. um And I hope that this will air before school starts. I think it will. As a former kindergarten teacher and a parent, what is your like biggest kindergarten prep tip that parents can do this summer? I think just getting them to see that learning is fun. So that when it's time to like get into the classroom, they are engaged, they're ready to learn, they're excited to rhyme and look at letters and numbers and things like that. um And I think also making sure they can either tie their own shoes or getting them velcro shoes so that they don't struggle with that in the classroom. But from the academic standpoint is just keeping learning fun
00:51:00
Speaker
making it fun at home as well, like making it something that they're excited to do, come home and talk about, like ask them about, um, just so that they can like already start with like a positive mindset around learning and not like you've been at home for 30 minutes, like being like, focus on this thing. And then they get to school and they're like, Oh, more of this stuff, but i just keep it fun. Like learning is fun. Learning to read can be fun as well.
00:51:26
Speaker
Yeah. And I always like to remind parents, like kindergarten is for learning. Like you don't need to have them like being, like quizzing them, like make sure that they're at a certain spot this summer. I mean, you can, but I would imagine that most of the people that are listening to this podcast are parents that are already doing things at home. So I'm like, they don't need to, like, they're going to learn these things in kindergarten. Like if you want to work on things, like I'm like,
00:51:50
Speaker
Make sure they can open their lunch, the shoe thing for sure. They can zip the pants or the clothes. And but in their pants, yeah. and um Oh, like another one I like to say is like practice losing a game. Oh my gosh, yes. That's going to go pretty far. o yeah For sure, yeah. but Oh my gosh. Well, as always, love to having you. Love being here. Great chat, as always.