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Red Flags, Bluey and Behavior Charts: My Interview with the Principal
687 Plays1 month ago
In this episode, we sit down with Principal Jon Arens, a special education teacher and dad to 3 little ones in the learning to read stages! We dive into the realities of education, parenting, and navigating the school system. This is part 1 of 2.
We cover a wide range of topics, including:
- Why Bluey beats Daniel Tiger as a favorite and how that choice says a lot about what we value in children's content.
- How failing in front of your kids (like taking them to a restaurant where you can't read the menu) is actually the best thing for their growth.
- The role language plays in learning to read and why "don’t be an expert" is actually great advice for parenting.
- The importance of representation in schools and why behavior charts should be banned—Jon would be shocked to see them in public schools today and didn't believe that teachers and parents reported their school uses them!
- What’s really happening in classrooms: Class Dojo, EBD, and even padded walls (as investigated by the Chicago Tribune).
- The big question: Is it more valuable to train teachers or invest in new curriculum? Spoiler: Curriculum often sits in a box.
- Why teachers might be too nice to speak up and how school boards may not fully understand what's happening in schools.
- Practical advice on how to support your kids at home, from asking the right questions to staying informed on curriculum decisions.
We also tackle red flag/green flag questions for schools, check-in check-out forms, equity audits, and how creating a safe environment for children enables them to take more risks and learn. Plus, why you should always watch school board meetings and who you should really email when you need answers.
Visit bigcityreaders.com for more on these topics!
If you have more questions after this episode, stay tuned for part 2 where we dig even deeper!
Recommended
Transcript
Impact of Age-Appropriate Learning Techniques
00:00:04
Speaker
if their kid asks them to draw a dinosaur or something. Parents are like, well, this is not a very good drawing, you know, whatever. And it's your three year old asking you to draw a dinosaur. And I'm like showing them how to draw a dinosaur at their developmental level is going to do worlds more than having your kid think that you're such a good artist. Personally, I think that somebody that is like, I'm learning with you is like the biggest green flag.
00:00:32
Speaker
I mean kids are just little people and adults sometimes don't realize that a lot of the things that we do as adults are things that kids are going through too.
Introduction to Educational Leadership and Management
00:00:44
Speaker
Hey you guys, it's Beth. Welcome back. I am so pumped to share this episode with you because I've had tons of parents, other experts, therapists, speech pathologists, you name it. We have had them on the show and this episode is the first of its kind. It is with a principle.
00:01:04
Speaker
So I'm so excited to share his perspective as ah both a parent and a former teacher and a principal because it is such a serious role and position. And this episode is just jam-packed answering all of your questions, whether you're a parent or a teacher, on school policies and curriculum change and supporting your teacher and what the principal role looks like and how to have classroom management and school management and everything in between. It's such a good episode that we had to break it into two parts because we talked for so long and honestly, I would follow this principle to building their own school if he ever decides to do that. And I did say that in the episode, but this is a great, great episode. I hope that you get as much out of it as I did. Enjoy.
00:01:57
Speaker
Welcome back to the Play On Words podcast. I'm so excited to have one of my internet friends, which actually most of my friends are internet friends, join me today. And it is actually a principle. I'm going to let him introduce himself. But I want to let you know some of the things that I think that i'm we're going to talk about based on our DMs. But talking about behavior charts, lockdown drills, restorative justice versus traditional discipline in the classroom.
00:02:25
Speaker
IEPs, just giving parents hopefully like a little taste of what a school administrator wants you to feel confident asking about. I'm like looking at our list like curriculum changes, how to talk to the principal about curriculum changes, full or half day, understanding and misunderstanding ADHD. So but we've got a lot to cover in a very short amount of time. So welcome, why don't you introduce yourself to those that do not know you?
John Aarons' Educational Philosophy and Background
00:02:51
Speaker
My name is John Aarons. I am a principal and a special education director at a public charter school in Milwaukee. i' followed along with the Big City Readers podcast and programming and everything like that for a while, connected into my algorithm early, I think. And then I think I had some friends that used you when you were you know working out of a closet or a whatever it was. we did I think we had a already left. We used to live in Chicago. And I think you probably started around the same time that we moved up to um Milwaukee. But yeah, I'm happy to be here and happy to answer all the questions.
00:03:31
Speaker
So thank I'm so excited about this. i'm probably good I already know I'm going to have to ask you back. And you have little kids too, right? Yes. I forgot to mention that. So I work at um two different K-4 through eighth grade schools now.
00:03:46
Speaker
I do have three kids. I have a first grader, a kindergartner, and a full day 3K. So it's very busy. All the kids are in the stages of learning how to read. And so it's very relevant to me personally and professionally. Before I was an administrator, I was a special education teacher.
00:04:08
Speaker
I taught in middle school and in high school. So now and now I help run elementary school. So I've seen most of the spectrum I feel from the educational landscape.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah. And I was going to say, um I was pointing out that you have kids to like make people like realize like, this is crazy that we could get you. But you know, I feel like some people, not like big city readers, people, but like people always on the internet will be like, if you suggest like a responsive classroom approach, they're like, well, I'm a parent and I'm burnt out. And like, you know, everyone will give you all the excuses like, Oh, sure. A teacher wants to say this. They don't know what it's like to be an administrator, but like, you literally have done all of the things. So Yeah, and every every once in a while something goes across the I feel like my algorithm is very specific and it it comes across in like two days ago or maybe it was yesterday it was it dovetailed right with like the start of school but there was some you know post that one viral about
00:05:08
Speaker
it's normal for your kids to be just freaking out at the end of the day. I'm sure you saw the same thing and you know I was like going through it and I was like, yep, this is exactly what we tell parents. I remember having to deal with it when my kids would come home and I'd be like, I'm not hearing anything about the day is not going bad. and that But like the second we walk in the door, there's a full on meltdown. So that is a normalized part of you know the having kids experience.
Vulnerability and Problem-Solving in Education
00:05:34
Speaker
And it's it's kind of weird that I see like you know not my kids and that bottling it in and keeping it in part of it. And then I i get the the pleasure of seeing like the exact opposite of it when I actually
00:05:47
Speaker
like the second I get home so it is there's a lot of elements I feel like to the job that because the ages are our kids it just it's kind of like a constant learning cycle but it is good because it allows me to apply things from school to home and home to school and you know I I hope it helps my credibility with parents. Oh, it does. That's really the goal. But I would be lying to you if I said that I'm not you know learning along with every parent with stuff. you know My kids do stuff every day that I had not seen before. So um it is kind of like one big science experiment.
00:06:25
Speaker
Like personally, I think that somebody that is like, I'm learning with you is like the biggest green flag. So I like that. And I also like to think about like after school restraint collapse. that That's what it's called. Restraint collapse. Yes. Yes. And I think about it. Like if you ever like go to a party,
00:06:42
Speaker
I always like, I'm trying to think of the analogy for like adults because I think we think of kids as like these like foreign things. It's like, well, what, what do you feel like? So when I'm like, do you ever like go to a party and you're just like, Oh my gosh, people are saying ridiculous things. And you're like, can't wait to talk about that in the car. And then you like get in the car and you're like, Oh my gosh, did you hear what happened? And like, everyone was like, Oh, she was so pleasant at the party. And then you just start freaking out at the person that you feel safe with.
00:07:08
Speaker
that is the best comparison that I've heard the adult version of it because ah I mean kids are just little people and adults sometimes don't realize that a lot of the things that we do as adults are things that kids are going through too and we just have different ways of you know, masking it or coping with it like any kid. And we just are not aware of the things that we're doing because we've learned them already, you know, or we're really good at applying them in a more neutral or covert way. And I think that, you know, kids can learn skills, but the application of the skills and like the implementation of the skills
00:07:46
Speaker
neither of which are words that you would use with like a little kid. But like those are the words that you know I feel like parents don't give themselves enough credit for. It's like, how long does it take to actually put this into play? How long did it take put it into play for you? And you know there's tons of parents. that I still have my own struggles with all kinds of stuff. So I mean i think that there's a certain amount of grace, especially the beginning of the year, that has to be had for parents and for educators, and especially for kids.
Parental Role in Normalizing Struggles
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I think you just like hit the nail on the head with that, that like we are all still struggling with things and figuring things out, but like remembering. the analogy, you know, like a pilot, like, or the flight attendant, like, if you are stressed, and there's turbulence, and then you look in the flight attendant, or like the pilots like, Hey, just a little turbulence, you can hear in their voice, they're calm, you see the flight attendant is still passing out drinks, you're like, Okay, this is no big deal. You're like, I can relax. I think that is like the biggest thing for parents to remember is like, you don't need to freak out if they're having this, like, it's not a problem. It's just you be the steady person and you become it's like, okay, this is normal. And
00:08:56
Speaker
It's fine, I don't need to fix this right now. Yeah, I mean, that being said being said, and I know that we've talked about this before, but I do think that it's really important for parents to normalize aspects of their day that are a struggle as well. Because I think that if you hide that from your kids, you know you look stronger, however you you feel that it's helping you. But I think at the end of the day, and you're losing a learning lesson and in terms of like normalizing struggle. Everyone has their you know part of the day. i mean I was just alluding to it. i was like The 430 to 630 window of my life is just mostly chaos. And every once in a while, the kids do need to see that you know I'm trying to take a call or I'm trying to deal with a situation and like you you're going to have to just like work with me on this or like you know dinner.
00:09:44
Speaker
you know we We had this dinner plan and then it like we were missing ingredients. Our oven broke two weeks ago during while I was making a pizza and then I had to move the pizza to the grill and then the pizza was not as good. But like that was a very open fail in front of my kids and family. and that is something that you do have to kind of do every once in a while. And I think if it happens at the same time that they're melting down after school, it's actually like not the worst thing in the world because you're like problem solving together. And yeah, everyone knows this is a tough time. You know, like I think that the odds that people give each other grace and work through problems and learn about how to like be gentle with people at the end of their day is higher if everyone's just failing at once. You know, like, yeah,
00:10:33
Speaker
So I think that there needs to be some more normalization around that for sure. Totally agree. Like I'm always like trying to, I feel like parents are so hard on themselves. So I'm like, yes always trying to remind that like you don't need to do it perfectly. You actually just need to show your kit. Like you can't put them in a bubble and protect them from everything. Like, but you can equip them on how to know how to problem solve.
00:10:58
Speaker
I think that's, I remember I was on a trip one time and our, um, I like freak out about tiny, tiny things, but like, for example, if I'm like, Oh gosh, I, my car needs to get a car wash. And it's like that stresses me out. I don't freak out about it. I'm just like, that's annoying to me.
00:11:15
Speaker
but our car got broken into in San Francisco and all of our luggage was taken and our wallets and our phones and I was like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. like i like I went up to somebody else and I was like, can you airdrop? You were just taking a picture of that. I think you got a picture of the car that broke into ours. Can you airdrop it to me? like I like took someone else's phone. like you know We did all the things and my friend was like, wow, you get stressed if your car needs to be washed. But it's like, I was like, the big things I know how to problem solve.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't love being in an airport with kids, but that would be where the kids would see my failings most rapidly because I don't travel a lot. I hate traveling in airports, especially with kids.
Importance of Risk-Taking in Learning, Especially Reading
00:12:00
Speaker
Yeah, if I felt like I wasn't showing how much of a failure I was,
00:12:06
Speaker
more often, I would be like, we need to travel more because you would see just how much I break down in an airport. And that that is where everything goes wrong for me typically. So that's like my break glass in case of emergency. If I stopped failing openly with pizzas and things like that at home, I think I would probably just be like, all right, let's go on vacation. And you can see how devolved I can truly get in an airport.
00:12:30
Speaker
Well, I love that your break glass in case of emergency is like if I'm not doing a good enough job showing my kids how to fail. Yeah, I mean, it just I don't want them to fail and get hurt, you know, i but like it is important to fail. that Failing is part of the learning process. Any educator is going to say that any teacher, any person working on reading, like if you're not struggling, then you're not learning. And I think that that applies to pretty much everything. But most importantly to reading, because reading is, you know, the most important thing that you're teaching at this age, and that is
00:13:04
Speaker
You know something I see you know in my job and then I also see it with you know with my own kids I mean my daughter did not want to read to us for a long time and she.
00:13:16
Speaker
I think she was like embarrassed that she couldn't read. And I was like, here you're know four years old. like You're not supposed to be able to read yet. And it took a long time for that light, like that confidence to kind of click in. And I'm seeing the same sort of thing with my son. But like taking chances, taking risks is like such an important part of the reading process.
00:13:37
Speaker
and if If they're not doing that, that's something that you have to and normalize within your work with them. you know If that means that you have to go to like some like ethnic restaurant that you have no idea how the menu works and just like sit there in front of them and just be like, man, I have no idea what any of this is. I can't read this. you know like If that's what you have to do, then you might have to do it. But it it can be hard, I think, to show like your own struggles with processing language for kids.
00:14:07
Speaker
but I mean, that's how I would do it. If it was really not working, I'd be like, okay, we're going to go eat at, you know, like an Ethiopian restaurant or something like that. And I'm just going to not have any, you know, any of this works or like a, for me, like, you know, like a French restaurant. Like I ah never spoke fresh in my life. We're going to go eat at a French restaurant and I'm just going to fail in front of these kids and realize that like, you know, this is language, like language takes work. Language takes, you know, like, how do I know what that word on the board means? Well, I'm going to like try to,
00:14:39
Speaker
piece it together from stuff that I can gather. Yeah. And I think that menu thing is a good analogy because you could do so many things with that. You can show language, but then you could also, I'm thinking I once went out to a restaurant and I have taken Spanish my entire life. I mean, like my adult life too, like through college, through high school, took an adult language class, like three hours a week at a restaurant where it's all conversational Spanish. I should speak Spanish. I can understand it, but I am so hard on myself about like doing it wrong that I don't do it. And I was at a restaurant with people that were all Spanish speakers and everybody ordered in Spanish and I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, i rash this is so embarrassing. Everyone's going to make fun of me. And the thing is, is that they don't and they like they didn't. And so I was like, okay, this ah is actually a good reminder for parents to show kids what they're thinking about when that new thing is happening. So yeah, like show them that you're struggling with a language
00:15:35
Speaker
But then also you can help them like give their brain that self talk of being like after you order being like, Oh my gosh, I was so nervous, but I actually feel really proud of myself for trying something that didn't feel comfortable to me. Like I know I'm still learning and I can't like, I can't believe how nervous I felt to speak. I know how to speak and like kind of like giving that like normalizing that it can feel embarrassing.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I just think that that is just a critical thing that adults do not do enough of. And I don't know if it's just because we want to seem like the experts for our kids. And we feel like that builds credibility. But I would actually make the argument that what builds credibility is what we're talking about. ah so There's a little rewiring and it's really like an exercise in self-awareness. But I think that you can be vulnerable and be self-aware in front of your kids when you know you're trying to teach them to take risks because that's how that's how you do it.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah. People will always be like, if their kid asks them to draw a dinosaur or something, I feel like ah this is like such a common thing that I've seen in real life where parents are like, Oh, this is not a very good drawing. This is, you know, whatever. And it's your three year old asking you to draw a dinosaur. And I'm like, no, the actual best thing, like stop saying, Oh, I'm not an artist. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like stop saying that. And showing them how to draw a dinosaur at their developmental level is going to do worlds.
00:17:04
Speaker
More than having your kid think that you're such a good artist. Yeah, I mean that's a go completely off until like parent
Lessons from Bluey: Vulnerability and Art
00:17:14
Speaker
land here. But my favorite episode of Bluey is the episode called dragon, which is about drawing. It's the episode where the parents are talking about their own skills with related to drawing and how they got to that point. And, you know, the dad had been told that he was a bad drawer and that's why he was a bad drawer. And then like the mom was told that, you know, she didn't think she was a good enough drawer. And then her mom, like support her through that process. And then like, there was all these, um,
00:17:42
Speaker
like moments with their kids. It's just a fabulous episode. It's probably my favorite one in the whole series of you know great episodes. And I know that my daughter connected with it a lot because she loves art and she drew scenes from it while she was watching it that I still have because I was just, I thought that episode was great and I was so happy that it resonated with her too. But I would encourage you, I assume every single person that follows you has a Disney plus count but I that a dragon episode which I think is unlike the third season it's just so great for just building up that like idea of Like vulnerability and like like how like little things that you say to kids do stick with them and like how you kind of like navigate that I Love that. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to link that episode in the show notes. It's a great up. It's so good.
00:18:32
Speaker
Louis has to be, and it and maybe it people, this is common knowledge, but I haven't investigated, but it has to be written with child development psychologists. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Emotional Growth in Children's Programming
00:18:42
Speaker
I mean, I, we were kind of late to the Louis thing in our family, but we had like a fairly significant Daniel tiger phase, um which I like so because I, you know, like when I figured out that it was from like, Mr. Rogers neighborhood, I was like, Oh, this is great. You know, I cried during that documentary, but the level of depth into the interactions with like the parents and like the, the way that like,
00:19:08
Speaker
whole show is put together, I would say like child psychologists, normal psychologists, you know, like, yeah at pretty much like every level. I mean, I'm thankful that the show because it doesn't feature, you know, like live actors or anything like that could potentially just go on forever, kind of like South Park where like the kids don't forget older. um I mean, their voices are going to eventually change and they'll have to get like new actors and actresses. But like,
00:19:34
Speaker
I think it's just like an absolute critical show and it came at like a perfect time. You know, the only the only thing that I've ever gone to or really that it didn't love was the live show. I didn't think the live show was that great. But like, yeah, and it was super expensive. But everything else is is great. I mean, like we we watch one like before that pretty much like every night as a family. So.
00:20:00
Speaker
Oh, I love that. Also, you just made me think of my friend. She's like probably like us, an ADHD person that has done a lot of things in their life. I was going to say she's like an early childhood development specialist. She's a therapist. She does early intervention. She's, you know, she's worked in all the fields. She's social worker, but she always says that she's like Daniel tiger and bluey are actually not for the kids. Therefore you to learn how to be a parent.
00:20:30
Speaker
Yes. I mean, I think Daniel Tiger. You know, Tiger's mom specifically, she said. Yeah, I mean, I think Daniel Tiger seems to is probably like a little idealistic and probably better for like really young kids.
Diverse Family Representations in Bluey
00:20:45
Speaker
But I think that if your kids are like four to six or seven, I mean, I think Bluey is like right in the sweet spot for um those issues. And I think that as it should almost I feel like the baby books should go away, maybe, and they should just like prescribe Bluey episodes for parents. I mean, there's Bluey episodes about like miscarriages and like earth and things like that are really deep that kids don't pick up on. But if you're a parent or if you like went through fertility issues, like you pick on it right away. It's how to be like supportive
00:21:22
Speaker
parent, how to like recognize parents that are struggling around you. I mean, there's a lot of depth to believe. It is much more than a kid's show. And um i've I've heard that it's the by far and away the number one moneymaker on Disney Plus, which tells you a lot. I mean, I i think Disney tried to buy it at one point and they were like, no, because it's probably worth like billions of dollars at this point.
00:21:47
Speaker
So I mean, what they're doing is great. And like I said, it came at a perfect time. I feel like there's a lot of anxiety in parenting right now and the amount of like representation of different types of families and like different types of issues and all that stuff is is very there. And Bluey, whereas like in Daniel Tiger, it's like, it's told you, but it's like explicitly told to you. So like, instead of just having a family with one parent, they'll be like,
00:22:11
Speaker
This kid only has one parent, you know, it's like very, like they hand it, hold it, whereas like it's, it's bluey. They're just like, that kid just has one parent, you know, like, so I feel like they do a better job of kind of like letting kids come to realize that stuff like they would in the real world, as opposed to, you know, like.
00:22:29
Speaker
you know no one like goes into like a classroom and is like, hey, that kid has one parent, you know or like that parent died. like That's not like how the real world works. You have to like understand and pick up inferences and like subtle things that allow you to interact with people. And I think that is one of the geniuses of the writing of that show specifically.
00:22:51
Speaker
Maybe this is just my associative brain, but that feels like it's like kind of like evolving with like we're all learning these things too. Like I'm thinking about like Modern Family was like one of the, or or Will and Grace was were the first shows that like had gay couples on TV. They broke the barrier. Yeah, I mean like those.
Subtle Representation in Media as a Learning Tool
00:23:10
Speaker
those shows were much more like explicitly like, this is a difference. And yeah, but then look at Schitt's Creek and they like that isn't really a thing like that. It's just on it. Right? Like, it's a lot of times those shows. Yeah, like a lot of times that I mean, I'm not like a TV expert by any means, but I feel like a lot of the times, like the value of representation is in not hand holding the person to the water and dunking their head into the water. They're different. Yeah, like representation is most impactful when you walk past the water. You don't have to be like, get ready because I'm about to dunk your head at this. I feel like that is such a parenting thing even right there. I feel like, oh, hey, it's me interrupting myself to tell you if you're liking what you're listening to, then you're probably going to love my big city readers on demand courses.
00:24:03
Speaker
If you've ever wondered why is that word spelled with a G and not a J, well, it's not just random. There's a reason for that. And you'll learn that in my spelling rules for second graders course. If you've ever wondered what letters to teach in what order to your preschooler, yeah, I teach you that in my preschool course too. If you've ever wondered what your kindergartners should be able to write or draw, or if your toddler scribbles matter and how to guide them to the next step,
00:24:29
Speaker
Yep, you guessed it, all of my on-demand courses teach you exactly how to do this. I am sort of obsessed with talking about the learning to read and write journey because I feel like there's so much misinformation about it. So I've dedicated my life to making sure that there's more clear cut fun information and you can help your child and yourself by getting one of these courses. They are jam packed into 15 minute on-demand lessons and you're gonna feel all confident, your child's gonna feel confident,
00:24:59
Speaker
And be warned, this is no exaggeration. At least 20 parents have told me that at parent teacher conferences, their teacher has said, oh, are you a reading specialist with the kind of questions they ask? So you're going to learn a lot. Your child's going to learn a lot. You're both going to feel confident. I promise you. Um, this is really all I think about ever. Oh, I sound kind of boring when I say it like that. But anyway, check out the big city readers on demand courses. Let me know if you need any help deciding what the right course for your child is.
00:25:29
Speaker
And also like let me know how the lessons are going if you're already doing them. Okay, back to the episode. Some people are like, well, I want to make sure I'm doing this. And it's like, just you're you are doing it. like Just yes be around it. like You don't need to be like, okay, check, check, check, did this, but like you're doing it. Yeah.
00:25:49
Speaker
OK, also, I love the episode of Bluey, which I do think is like so high level of like the ant that like doesn't come around for a long time. That is a very deep one. We saw that one recently, and I was like, oh, man, that is like, that's tough. That could be like a really tough one. I'm actually kind of surprised they made that episode, because it is. I was too. I thought I was like, this is it tough so. It's tough. That's an episode they went to put in the first season. That's when they started realizing that they could dig into some of the the meatier stuff and that that one is ah stuff. um I think the first time I saw it, I probably like wasn't paying attention to it. And then when I saw it with my full attention, I was like, oh man, conversations are going to happen with that episode. that is that
00:26:39
Speaker
yeah yeah that was so Yeah. I watched it because one of my friends was like, we I was watching this with my kids today. like Can you watch this and explain like the developmental process behind it? And I was like, whoa, that is a tough one. Yeah, but that one's not for kids at all. That one is straight up for adults. like Because there's only one line. It's like, wait, we haven't seen you very much. And then it just like the rest of the episode is felt you know spent like unpacking you know adult trauma. And the kids are just in the background like playing.
00:27:07
Speaker
and that episode is not for kids. That that episode not one is straight up for families that need it. Yeah, that one, specifically someone on staff was triggered by something of a family member and they made that specific one. Yeah, they were like, okay, yeah. So that's what I love that. I mean, I hope that like the success of it leads to more shows like that, that's really what I'm optimistic about. I mean, I love when good things make money and do well like that because I think that it's really important because there's so much stuff that's like unpredictable and like, you know, like, is this good? Is this bad for my kids? You know, like that conversation happens so much. And I feel like Louis is just universally, like, this is good for everybody. You know, like how many things yeah in society right now, like universally good for everyone. I mean, like that
00:27:59
Speaker
make the argument that Bluey is like uniting the world on some level. It is. but That's my spiel on Bluey. I could go on forever. I love Bluey.
00:28:11
Speaker
I love it. like show the live show's no good but Absolutely. Do not go to the live show. Okay. I usually do a segment, but I mean, not usually. I started adding in segments, but basically the whole show is this segment, but it's red flag or green flag.
Critique of Behavior Charts in Schools
00:28:26
Speaker
And you just said, you know, it's really, you like looking at what's good for kids and what's bad for kids. And so I already know one that I want to ask you, but you can bring your own red flag or green flag, but I do want to talk about one of my biggest red flags. all right And that is, do you know what it is? Hit me with it, I'm sure. Behavior charts. Yes, behavior charts. I mean, I was an EBD teacher and I don't know what it's called. And like every state, when I was a special education teacher, you know, every state has different labels, the different names for the different labels. And when I started my career and I was a career changer, I didn't always work in education. But my my first job was I worked in a self-contained
00:29:05
Speaker
EBD room in Milwaukee at a high school. So EBD stands for emotional behavior disabilities. So kids that were labeled that had like an emotional or behavioral disability. A lot of my kids had, you know, been incarcerated previously and they were taught in a separate setting of the school. So that unit does not exist anymore, which is one of my biggest pride points professionally because, you know, it got you know audited and you know it got flagged for equity issues and i was happy to participate in that process to make sure that those types of units don't exist anymore but i started my career in one and i have so many opinions about behavioral things and it's driven a lot of my work but behavioral charts especially the ones that are like open kid facing.
00:29:51
Speaker
you know, like the the classic ones that you don't really see that often anymore are like the closed lines with like the kid's name on it. And then there's like a, you know, a stop sign and like a yellow sign and like a a green sign and they like move them up and it's like an open, there's like some behavioral shaming part of it. It's not private. It basically goes along the line of like what, you know, I always tell teachers and students, um, you know, like,
00:30:17
Speaker
No one solves any problems in front of a class like you always like give the student and give your teacher the dignity of having like a private conversation about the issue and see how they respond. It's always going to be different. I think most teachers would agree with that, but there is an element of this like shaming that really does nothing. It just builds resentment. But yeah, if you have if there's like a behavior chart, I know that you've said that. like I've seen things that you've um posted that were like, my whole school has behavior charts. I mean, that's that's not good. My guess would be it's probably not a public school because public schools really can't get away with that anymore, which is good. Some people have said that they have them in their public schools. That's crazy. like i
00:31:00
Speaker
that would get flagged in an audit right away in any sort of equity audit would get flagged right away. So maybe in like a smaller district. Smaller districts don't get audited as much as bigger districts. One of the things that I've always told people is that larger urban districts get a lot of flack for their failings or their perceived failings, but special education in larger districts in cities is usually really good because they get audited every year as opposed to Smaller districts that get audited every three years. That's how it works in Wisconsin. It's usually on like a three year cycle. I've been part of half dozen audits. I've led audits. Bigger school districts get audited more and that audit is not like to put like a financial penalty or something like that. An educational audits goal is to change practice. And if you're getting audited every single year,
00:31:53
Speaker
yeah, your practices are gonna be changed and they're gonna be streamlined it into the best practices. And if you get audited every year for 10 years, yeah, you're your stuff's gonna be pretty good. So like I always tell people, you know, like specialist services at these bigger urban districts are usually really good because they have so much eyes on them. You would not see a chart like that in like Chicago Public Schools. I know for a fact that whatever schools they said that they saw it everywhere, it's not a CPS school, no way.
00:32:21
Speaker
Um, it wouldn't happen in Milwaukee public schools that wouldn't have an any big statistic because that would get flagged right away. Um, because there are more eyes on it. Any audit really, but like an equity ah audit, I mean, like a special education teacher going through a classroom would be like, absolutely not. Cause then you're just like the kids with behavioral disabilities or perceived behavioral disabilities or that have behavioral IEPs are just going to be on the top all the time. So you're just telling everybody in the class who has, you know, like a behavioral goal in their IEP that's,
00:32:49
Speaker
You know, that's not equitable. That's not private. There's nothing about that that works either. It's just a very old school way of doing things that is thankfully going away. And it's pretty easy to take it away too from like an amin administrator perspective you to be like, that's not happening anymore. And that's it. So like one of the things about being an administrator is you can do stuff like that. Yeah, that would be a big one. Another red flag would be like a self contained like room. oh ah The biggest red flag is if they have a room with padded walls. like That is the absolute biggest red flag of any school in the world. If your school has a room with padded walls, that means they use it and that means they put kids in there and they're secluding kids. you know Restraining and secluding kids, you can look up
00:33:36
Speaker
reports for your school, how often it's happening. I know there was a huge investigation on this, the Chicago Tribune did, which was great. I mean, journalism around educational issues has been really picking up in the last few years. It led to all this reading work. you know A huge part of your audience was probably driven by the you know the New York Times. Sold a story. Yes. That sort of journalism is creating more eyes on equity issues and issues that have been historically difficult to tackle.
00:34:04
Speaker
But there was a huge one in Illinois about seclusion and restraint last year, and it changed a ton of practices.
Implementing Points Systems Fairly
00:34:12
Speaker
Okay, I have a question for you. Okay, so when people are like, what about class dojo stuff? What do you think about that? The point system in general, like from not like parents, just like from like management? Yeah, it's not very dissimilar from the charts that I was just talking about.
00:34:30
Speaker
Most teachers tend to award points by the whole class. yeah That's more common. like This class has been struggling in a special, and I'll give the whole class points if they do really well in Spanish, and then the whole class gets points. like I think it's effective when like the whole class gets points and the whole class loses points.
00:34:52
Speaker
I think giving kids individual points only works if you're doing it with that kid. You're saying like, I'm going to give you some points for this. if like if you're telling If you're telling the other kids that aren't that kid how they're getting the points, I think that is kind of like a privacy equitable issue. But I think that if you're having the conversation on the side and you're like, i'm getting you know this is something that you get points for, and I'm giving you points for this right now, and they get the points That's how they get it. And I think that if all the kids are having those kinds of conversations and getting points, those types of ways, I think that's a lot better. But it's harder. I mean, that's harder to do. I also wonder because, OK, so I'm thinking like we're thinking in this dream world that this is already happening. But I think the only thing that I have a problem with with dojo stuff is if it's not explained,
00:35:49
Speaker
like by the teacher and with the class, like there needs to be like classroom rules and expectations and like not just like you were good or bad because I feel like kids don't know what that means. Like what does it mean for our whole class to do better in Spanish? And I think like that is often a step that skipped when kids are just like, Oh, so I was quiet. I didn't ask to go to the bathroom. So I was good in Spanish now. And I would agree with that. I would say that the hardest part of using Dojo is linking your classroom expectations to like this really like binary incentive thing and and dojo is aware of that they like prepackaged their like suggested behavioral things now and they've definitely tweaked them to be more like with the times you know like you know bad good you know I think when dojo first started I'm sure it was like this kid was bad this kid was good now it's like you know I lined up
00:36:47
Speaker
and was quiet in the hallway or like they do some of the work for teachers but you can customize them like almost infinitely you can customize the dojo reward system so we don't get a ton of pushback on Dojo. I wouldn't say maybe like once or twice a year, we'll have an issue where it's like a kid gets really fixated on like a specific Dojo thing. and And if that's happening, I'm like, maybe we just kind of like pull back on that a little bit because we don't need like a Pavlov's dog situation for like all these like four year olds, you know, like I don't want the feedback loop for their...
00:37:21
Speaker
experience in school to be based on dojo. And you know like that would perk my ears up a little as a parent if like my kid every day was like, I only have this much dojo or this much dojo. I wouldn't love that. But that's partially because I work in education and I would be like, that can't be the only thing that you're driving your day off of. I think it's best used in moderation and as like a way to incentivize specific areas that need work. I think if you're using it all day, you're losing instructional time managing it. I liken it to GoGuardian. GoGuardian is one of those things that's like a really effective tool, but like if you're spending the whole time um closing kids tabs and like managing what they're doing, you're not teaching. So like some instructional technology is so powerful and can change behavior so much that
00:38:13
Speaker
it becomes the class and that can't be the class. Like your class cannot be GoGuard and your class cannot be Dojo. So I think it's best used for specific things. And that's usually what I recommend teachers. And then if teachers are using it like too much, I'm like, you know, let's scale this back. You know, like this is a lot and I usually frame it and like, this is a lot of work for you. Like, are you getting the benefit out of the amount of work you're putting in? Are your kids getting educationally benefited in some way from this, do we need to pause, you know, like that kind of thing. So it's and it's a good question. I mean, I think it's such a big part of the communication systems in elementary schools, especially now that I think that they're probably getting a lot of good questions about their product and like how to fix their product and make it better. And I think that's ultimately probably a good thing. But yeah, it definitely can be used negatively.
00:39:06
Speaker
Agreed. So, okay. So we need more training for teachers
Teacher Training vs. Curriculum Purchases
00:39:10
Speaker
basically. Basically in summary, make sure that teachers get training in social, emotional and restorative justice practices in classroom management. Okay. So this is a big question that I always get. and And this is not, I have like two more questions for you because I know you are very busy and I want to give you back to your school, but this is not one of them. So this is a bonus. Sorry. And I'm like, why is this a question that I'm getting asked, but it's coming in a lot.
00:39:33
Speaker
Would you rather have the school be like we bought this excellent curriculum or we got training for our teachers and they're talking specifically in reading and I was gonna say why can't it be both but I also think it should be the training over the curriculum if you have to choose because Like if you're just reading a manual, like what happens when something goes a little awry? It's like being in a surgery yeah and being like, well, I know that this is the next thing to do. And it's like, Oh no, there's blood everywhere. It's like, well, that's not the next step. Yeah. I mean, curriculum sets in a box is my answer to that question until it's taught too. And if you don't take the time to teach and you don't give teachers the time to
00:40:17
Speaker
learn how a curriculum is taught, ask questions, you know pilot curriculum that's always best practice. You know like you shouldn't just like unleash it on something. you should You should pilot it. I know I've been part of pilots before. I've done pilots before for reading curriculum and building champions for the curriculum like slowly. So like it's not just coming from an administrator. like This teacher has seen success with this. like This is why we're really into it you know like we see success with this with our special education population and believe that this program or this method would benefit kids that aren't in special education yet I mean that's that's a conversation that I have all the time and a lot of really good intervention and reading program stuff like a great example would be like the behavioral thing like I I'm a big believer in like check and check out forums which
00:41:06
Speaker
Almost everyone sees at some point in their um child's career. It's like, you know, a chart with like a period by period. This is specific goals that I'm working on. That is from special ed and we've been using those forever in special ed and now they're part of, you know, like.
00:41:22
Speaker
the regular ed experience in a lot of classrooms and and they can be really powerful but that form requires like a lot of training and a lot of like this is how you use this and you know just sticking it in a teacher's mailbox is not going to do anything and you know as administrators we've all been there with something that we you know gave and didn't explain well enough or like assumed that teachers knew something but um I've always had the most success implementing things With the use of like a instructional champion of sorts and sometimes it can't even be like a coach, you know, like the reality is like administrators and coaches and people that are an admin, you know, don't have the same sort of. Pull that like a teacher or like maybe not even the department chair, you know, like the someone who.
00:42:13
Speaker
can bring like on the ground credibility to something and making sure that you're rotating your teachers through those experiences so it's not always the same person coming through every year saying, like this is our new curriculum, this is what we're doing. like Rotate it around so like people have the ability to like be a champion for something that they believe in. And if they don't believe in it, then like why don't you believe in it? Because that's not a bad conversation either. So I think that my answer would be curriculum sits in a box.
00:42:38
Speaker
and you have to unpack the box, then you have to move the box. And I've moved all those boxes before. They're very heavy. And I have put those boxes in rooms and just left them there and let them watch this sit there. like a The best metaphor for this question is ask how many administrators have moved boxes of curriculum from the main office to a room and then just watch it sit there in the corner forever. like There is an amazing amount of money that is spent on curriculum that goes unused.
00:43:09
Speaker
wild. It would floor people. And it's a huge inefficiency in how we spend money in education. And if you ever want to see it, just go visit a school that's moving. The amount of stuff you'll find that is not open is insane.
00:43:27
Speaker
It's so funny because I remember when I was in school, I asked for training and like that was like a little out of the budget. So I split it. Like I paid for a half, but there was such a budget for a curriculum. They were just buying anything. And I was like, this is garbage. Like, why are we buying all this? But I think it's like, it's easier to be like, well, we'll have this forever now than to be like, well, that teacher might leave like, and we pay for her training.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean a lot of curriculum can be a one-time purchase. Some curriculum like that's bought online can be like a recurring purchase, which can be nice because then there's usually some like training involved in it, but a lot of times the training is the the recurring cost of implementing a curriculum, and I know that I've seen that. okay So it kind of depends on the program. um I don't mind the subscription-based ones because then it's just like a known thing that you're going to you know, get every year and it's going to be this, this and this. I think it's hard in today's world to like lose teachers that have been trained in something and then like you've got to retrain someone else. Um, yeah and you have the materials, but you got to go train the person in that. So that is a tricky part of it, but that is just like kind of the business of curriculum. It is big business. It's it a very, very large business and
00:44:46
Speaker
There's lots of lobbying and influence that goes into it, and it's all government contracts. you know and Basically, it's like government contracting. It's no different from You know what they do with the government with weapons? It's the same thing. it's it it is We need a curriculum. There's billions of dollars to spend on this curriculum, and you're going to put your thing in the water, and everyone's going to come after it. and then So I don't mind when like governments or departments of education like you know green stamp things that they have approved, because it does take some of that legwork out of.
00:45:22
Speaker
yeah ah districts and I don't think that's a bad thing because I do think that like if you're you know if you've been a teacher your whole career and all of a sudden you're in a situation where you're getting like pitched business things all the time like I just think that like a lot of teachers are just too nice like it's just like you got to be able to sift through all that stuff and you're just like you know you're a kindergarten teacher that became an administrator you're just like the nicest person alive you know like And you're just getting pitched all these people like I just don't think that teachers are really wired for that for the most part because they're just such nice people. um yeah I think I would be bad at like getting pitched all that kind of stuff too because I would just be like trying to be a people pleaser and I would end up with like 18 curriculums. You know like i I do think that there is a benefit to having you know like
00:46:13
Speaker
Governments entities like navigate that and not like school boards school boards usually don't know that kind of stuff Like I do think that like the Department of Instruction for states should help school districts Sift through that and there are things like, you know, the what works clearinghouse is ah is kind of like a famous one.
Conclusion and Episode Teaser
00:46:32
Speaker
So I wanted to talk to John for probably 24 hours straight. We had so much to talk about that it had to be two episodes. So if you want to talk more about school safety and behavior and all the fun, sometimes taboo things that go along with this, check out next week's episode for part two of this conversation.
00:46:53
Speaker
And if you liked anything that we talked about or have more questions about it, don't forget to check out my blog, bigcityreaders dot.com. I have a searchable feature where you can look up behavior or teaching your child to read or how to have conversations that might be kind of tricky with your child's teacher, getting ready for parent-teacher conferences. There's a ton of resources over there at bigcityreaders.com. Okay, see you next time.