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S1, E4 The Career Coven: Assertiveness
159 Plays10 months ago
In this episode, Bec and Annie discuss the importance of being assertive but how it takes energy and is not always needed. Bec finds being assertive very easy - but this means she sometimes has to watch her tone and hold her breath. Whilst Annie is perceived as very assertive or direct, but doesn’t actually think she is assertive for much of the week.
You’ll hear about how being assertive is related to confidence, but not exactly the same thing. We agree that assertiveness is generally important for progression, but it’s a tool that’s part of influencing and it should be used with care. There were a large number of listener questions for this episode about how to be assertive, without being perceived as ‘bossy’ or ‘harsh’. We try to address these questions with practical tips for the listeners but we don’t necessarily see some of these ‘bad’ connotations as bad. Watch out for a little rant at the end by Annie, who doesn’t want our listeners to aspire to being ‘soft’ in the workplace.
Content recs, references & extra reading
- The Authority Gap: Why women are still taken less seriously than men, and what we can do about it, Mary Ann Sieghart
- Navigating high conflict personalities, Reboot podcast
Are you a fan? Please subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
P.S. Hope you enjoy higher sound quality for this episode. Let us know if it’s better for you!
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Transcript
Introduction to Assertiveness
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello. Hi. And welcome to The Career Coven. I'm Beck. And I'm Annie. And today we are talking about assertiveness, something that I think neither of us have a particular problem with, but I know that lots of people find their approach to assertiveness challenging and perhaps some of the connotations of being assertive. So let's unpack it. What does assertiveness mean to you, Annie?
00:00:33
Speaker
Yeah, it means expressing yourself or your opinion in a way that is clear, direct, constructive, but not rude. I think we will get into it, but as you said, lots of the connotations of women being assertive.
00:00:50
Speaker
seem to be like, am I going to be bossy? Am I going to be difficult? Am I going to be rude? And I think like, to me, I don't associate assertive communication with being rude. I just think it's direct forthright. It's a way of communicating your opinion or a belief and kind of, yeah, expressing what you need or
Gender Perceptions of Assertiveness
00:01:10
Speaker
want. Yeah, there's a lot of value judgment based on assertiveness.
00:01:15
Speaker
And society kind of implies that it's a bad thing culturally when you're just advocating for your kind of view or preferred outcome. And perhaps, you know, there's like good situations in which you could be assertive, if you're being assertive about a good idea.
00:01:30
Speaker
that's a great thing. Or perhaps if you're being assertive about something that's more controversial or less popular or that people don't understand, that's when people might trip into finding that behavior a bit more challenging.
The Authority Gap and Gender Challenges
00:01:45
Speaker
One of the things about assertiveness that's particularly important
00:01:49
Speaker
for women. I don't know if you've read a book called The Authority Gap by Marianne Seacart is brilliant. We'll put it in the show Nate. I haven't read that one. She talks about a double bind that women in particular face around confidence and assertiveness. So they're not the same thing. But in order to be successful, you need to be a combination of confidence and assertiveness. But when you are a woman, that's
00:02:19
Speaker
means that you can often be perceived as being that difficult woman and then feel like they have to go the extra step to compensate for that and be also therefore overly warm and kind of compensate with that more softness and all of that kind of stuff to make people feel more, I don't know, neutral about the person.
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I may not always be assertive and like everyone, my confidence waxes and wanes, but I'm definitely not overly warm. That's one thing I can totally confirm that I do not adapt my style when I think I've been too assertive or anything like that to being overly warm. But yeah, I mean, I think it showed in the questions that we got about this.
00:03:11
Speaker
It was really, really clear there was such a concern about being difficult as a woman, about being bossy and the perception of assertive behaviour in the workplace, probably from all genders, but like definitely for women, the connotations are quite negative.
00:03:29
Speaker
I think for men, the connotations can also be quite negative, which is like, they're aggressive, they're cocky, they, you know, they only care about what they want. But it's some of those attributes are still seen as a positive for men in certain environments. Whereas in general, I think the way people feel about the labels that are sometimes attached to assertive behaviour, like bossy, difficult, challenging.
Confidence vs. Assertiveness
00:03:57
Speaker
aren't seen as really positive when when it's women doing it which i think is is is something that hopefully is changing but it's definitely there and yeah i i think it's good to start by saying that confidence and assertiveness are not the same thing you know you can have a kind of
00:04:14
Speaker
in a confidence in your own work or your own beliefs but not express what you need when you need it and I think that that is the difference maybe or the nuance between those two things is like
00:04:28
Speaker
assertiveness is actually being able to kind of say what you think in environments where it needs to be said in a way that is direct, clear, concise, gets your point across and probably isn't overly emotional, overly personal or anything like that.
00:04:47
Speaker
Whereas confidence in it is a separate like category. I can think of loads of people who I would say, well, not loads actually, but I can definitely think of a few people who I would say I think they actually are quite confident in their own skills. But what they really struggle to do is when they're in a large meeting, or they kind of need to perform, or they're challenged on their views, they struggle to then be assertive in those moments about explaining why they think these certain things and like why they have these beliefs.
Transitioning Confidence to Assertiveness
00:05:15
Speaker
I think that's really interesting. I've definitely seen in a lot of the women that I have managed that crossing that threshold from having inner confidence about something to externalizing that and pushing forward and advocating for that is the kind of delta to bridge. I wonder if some of the things that hold those people back are perhaps a fear around
00:05:41
Speaker
vocalizing that position or a fear of criticism or.
00:05:47
Speaker
something like that, as well as the perception that they might be leading towards that they might be being difficult.
Assertiveness in Career Progression
00:05:55
Speaker
But certainly, if there was a piece of advice that I would want to give to anyone I was managing about being able to kind of move up in their career, it is also about being able to push for the outcomes that you think are the right ones and doing that in a kind way.
00:06:14
Speaker
a nice way, but being really clear about that and that kind of advocacy of what you think is right is really important, particularly in a dynamic where there might be some debate and actually healthy debate is part of
00:06:29
Speaker
healthy culture and healthy business because there will always be a bit of conflict and disagreement because people have different objectives and priorities. But being able to kind of stand up in that environment and talk the talk, I think is pretty important. Yeah. And you're not going to be able to
00:06:49
Speaker
progress quickly if you kind of can't assert yourself live in meetings. One of the things that we've talked about in the confidence episode I think it was actually is everyone has like a significant probability of kind of being wrong in their opinion and actually people kind of challenging that
00:07:10
Speaker
is good. And if you're not afraid of your opinion being challenged and you know why you hold your opinion and you're open to discussing it, then being assertive is a lot less hard. If you feel that you're in an environment where
00:07:26
Speaker
you are going to be heard, people are going to like respect what you say, then you're more likely to just be being assertive and you'll probably listen to what's coming back at you because you're just expressing yourself in the moment. Whereas if you feel like you're in an environment where you're either under attack with like aggressive communication style directed towards you, or you feel that you are not being heard, that you have made your point a number of times and you are fed up with having to make it and make it over and over again,
00:07:55
Speaker
that's when I think in terms of style you can see people moving from assertive to getting really kind of stressed out frustrated and starting to actually unfortunately go from assertive to aggressive and we've all done that you know that's fine and it's not a nice it's not a nice environment to be in when you don't feel listened to and I think especially as like quite young women you know
00:08:21
Speaker
I would say this happens to me like pretty regularly, but actually now I sort of see it as like, if people really aren't listening to me, that is kind of their loss.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's also like the hallmark of, of respect for yourself as well, not to kind of lower your behavior to the common denominator of whoever you're speaking to just because you feel like that might be more effective. Although I think you raise a kind of interesting point around how your assertiveness probably changes with who you're talking to and the style around
Styles and Situations for Assertiveness
00:08:57
Speaker
that. I'd argue that assertiveness is actually
00:09:01
Speaker
more broadly one of the tools in influencing and you know there are other tools in influencing people to the outcomes that you want. Assertiveness is one particular style but there are other ways to go about getting your point across where you don't necessarily have to be directly pushing a particular message really overtly
00:09:23
Speaker
I would say there is definitely an argument in some situations for a bit more subtlety. Particularly when you're trying to land some really difficult messages and you can be assertive about some things, but it's sometimes really helpful to let people talk through some of the positions that you're holding in language that
00:09:47
Speaker
lets them connect the dots between it and help everyone get to the same conclusion rather than you going straight to the end. You definitely don't want to be being really, really assertive about everything all the time. Okay, so let's talk about scenarios in which being assertive is the right style to employ.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I think you can be quite assertive about your story, like your personal story, the things that you have done. I think you'd be pretty assertive in job interviews, for example, or if you're asking for a pay rise, which is probably a topic that we should cover. Or maybe be assertive in the pay rise. Always be assertive then.
00:10:36
Speaker
I also think that when you've done a piece of work and you've formed a really kind of nuanced and considered opinion, and maybe you are more of an expert than some people in the room, I think being assertive about the conclusions that you've drawn because you are confident in them is a good thing, you know, that will give people confidence in the work that you have done. I think if you're fundraising, like, which is a very specific thing, but lots of people do it in some way, shape or form,
00:11:04
Speaker
be confident back yourself, be assertive about the things that you have learned and the things that you haven't learned and the things that you're looking at trying to learn. I think that is an environment where both confidence and assertiveness are very, very highly valued and highly rewarded. And I also think being assertive, if you
00:11:24
Speaker
if you quite strongly disagree with something that has been said or a behaviour that you have seen or a kind of value that really crosses a line for you, being very assertive about those, you know, I have always found that that has been more successful if you really communicate like that's crossed a line for me and this is why. I totally agree with that. I mean, you and I have very similar lists on this. I think
00:11:54
Speaker
For me, I would always be assertive if something felt sort of morally wrong, ethically wrong, against my values. It's also really important in situations with like,
00:12:08
Speaker
bullying, harassment, discrimination.
Communicating Clarity in Sensitivity
00:12:10
Speaker
There is no space for being around the bush when you're talking about those kind of behaviours and, you know, calling out something that needs to be addressed. That's not something that you can be really, really soft about. You have to be extremely clear. I think even where it's like,
00:12:28
Speaker
you know, a matter of perception, like how something was perceived, you know, I do think it is important if you perceive something as really affronting or like wrong, that even if the intention wasn't that, which is often the argument that will be kind of given back to you as the intention wasn't that,
00:12:45
Speaker
It is important to say, yeah, but the perception for me was very real, it was very immediate, and it was this, and you have to kind of understand that. And yeah, saying that in a way that isn't assertive, it just won't be listened to, unfortunately, in these harder, more nuanced debates. There are so many microaggressions that come out of people just being like, I didn't mean it that way, or just being ignorant, and actually being really straightforward in those scenarios and just saying,
00:13:15
Speaker
It doesn't really matter how you intended it. This is the outcome of what you said. And perhaps you should reflect on that. And as someone who has line managed situations like that, the best thing that you can do for anyone involved in that situation is to be really clear, to say to the kind of person who received that, like, I understand that that was horrific. I'm really sorry. I'm going to go away and do some things about it. And then going and dealing with the person who has said those things to say really clearly,
00:13:46
Speaker
that crossed the line. That was inappropriate. Here's the procedures that women follow. And there's no space for not being direct, I think in those situations. Yeah, I agree. So where would you not be assertive?
Appropriateness of Assertiveness
00:14:02
Speaker
So I think you you are pretty assertive. You're probably the most assertive person I know. Yeah, I am. I
00:14:12
Speaker
I actually struggle not to be assertive. I have to be really selective about holding my tongue. There are many times where I want to express an opinion that I just don't because I know that it's actually not going to get a good outcome or be heard or received in the way that we intended it to. So I'm quite selective about the hills that I'm willing to die on.
00:14:36
Speaker
And then I will go 100% on those. And when I choose not to be assertive, I think there is quite a lot to be said around whether you have the cover and authority to be assertive in a work context, because if you
00:14:53
Speaker
don't have the backing of the people above you or your investors or whoever that might be. And you might be speaking a bit out of turn, I would say you need to swallow that and perhaps look at getting that cover and authority before you push that. You know, I think a lot of that is around, is it the authority that you have or whose authority are you borrowing to make that point that
00:15:19
Speaker
And sometimes that is perceived authority or it's real authority, but it has to be the perception of the recipient of that assertive behaviour that they have to think that that authority is there. So I think that is one time where I just wouldn't, I would also not be assertive if I don't have a clear view of
00:15:41
Speaker
a particular outcome or objective to achieve. So it's kind of like just being a bit Aggie for Aggie's sake. Yeah, sometimes I just do that when I'm hungry.
Leadership Balance in Assertiveness
00:15:55
Speaker
That's never intentional. And then I would also just say, I think there's, we'll probably not talk about this today in a huge amount of detail. And this might be something for a different episode. But when you're
00:16:09
Speaker
in the way that you manage your team. I think there's a lot, there's a lot of great ones around your level of assertiveness and authority. And I would say if you're just
00:16:18
Speaker
being assertive with your team to demonstrate that you're more senior than them, I'd say that's gonna go down like a bag of shit. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Yeah, I would say that there are like, there are definitely times in leadership where you need to be assertive, but there are also times when you need to like show humility and like listen. And I would say that humility and listening is more often than like being really assertive. Shall we talk a little bit about
00:16:48
Speaker
some methods to be more assertive and some tips around those.
Effective Assertive Communication
00:16:53
Speaker
I think I would say you touched on this earlier, but in being assertive, sometimes it's just asking a really straightforward question and it doesn't have to come across in a tone that feels really, you know, a bit too much for everyone. It can just be, can I just clarify who's responsible for this and what timing expectation
00:17:18
Speaker
Um, uh, we'll receive it. It's something like that. Bloody love a clarification question. Bloody love one, you know? Yeah. And I think also the, the, I often in, in a work context where something quite complex is being discussed and everyone is walking away with a slightly different interpretation of it. Um, it's really helpful to just say, you know, my, my understanding and takeaway from this meeting is that we're doing X, Y, and Z and this person
00:17:48
Speaker
we'll be picking up that action and we'll regroup in this timeline. Can I just check that everyone understands the same thing? And saying something like that takes your kind of, I don't know, it will mistake your interpretation out of it because you are getting consensus around that rather than just saying, I think this is silly and I think you all don't get it, comes across differently.
00:18:15
Speaker
It's not assertive to interrupt people. It isn't like you have to try and make space in conversations for your voice and that can be really hard and potentially in some rooms, interrupting people will be unavoidable. But overall, I think like people who are really good at being assertive and clear and calm, do not interrupt or talk over other people to get that point across.
00:18:44
Speaker
I think speak this is like maybe too kind of literal in your terms of like tips but I think trying to speak quite slowly trying to establish like
00:18:55
Speaker
what your opinion or position is, trying to share in a concise way your main thought processes that got you to that point like show you're working and then also in that establishing what is fact and like what is opinion and I think the most important things are for me anyway
00:19:15
Speaker
like if someone like really aggressively interrupts me in it and communicates in a way where they don't seem very calm they seem really kind of agitated I just stop listening and I just end the call like I'm like I can see that you're not being your best self right now or I can see that you're a bit upset by this conversation so I suggest that we just reconvene
00:19:40
Speaker
at a later time when we can speak. Yeah, exactly. Which is, by the way, a very, very assertive way to handle things going wrong is to say like, actually, we're not going to get what we need today. So let's just stop it. Like, but you're not being rude. You're not being mean. You're not being unkind to this person. But like, I think many people do complaint
00:20:03
Speaker
being aggressive to get your point across with being assertive. And if someone crosses the line into you, it's interrupting, it's shouting, they look really annoyed. Sometimes they lean forward, you know, like I am now, like lean forward into the camera.
00:20:19
Speaker
i mean if someone pointed a finger at me i would i would just hang out if i wouldn't even say anything i'd just be like sorry what the fuck was that um but you know what i mean like once you start to see those behaviors you're not you're no longer going to think about the content and you're just going to feel on edge and you're going to think
00:20:36
Speaker
you know, this person is now being aggressive towards me, what is going on? Are they okay? Blah, blah, blah, but you no longer get like the point that you're trying to get across. It just completely ruins you trying to be assertive because you've lost yourself to something else.
Timing and Motivation in Assertiveness
00:20:50
Speaker
And that's the one thing where if you get so worked up, like if you are personally listening and you're trying to be assertive and you're trying to kind of work up to like having your voice, but you are so annoyed
00:21:05
Speaker
then I would suggest just saying something like, I disagree and I'll follow up with you afterwards. Cause if you cannot express yourself in a way that is constructive, my tip would be, don't try. If you're really heightened, like don't, maybe that's not the right tip, but like,
00:21:26
Speaker
You know, no, it's more likely to go completely wrong. It's more likely to go completely wrong, isn't it? If you're so frustrated, you're like boiling over and you just want to tell them all to fuck off. You know, the best thing is not to kind of probably not to tell people to fuck off, but also it's not to like, throw all your nuance and all of your work out the window and say something that expresses that really you're very annoyed. Don't try feels a bit like of a wrong thing to say, but it's like try another avenue. Yeah, try in a different environment.
00:21:55
Speaker
I think, you know, you're talking about an environment in which there's probably not a lot of psychological safety. And, you know, in any kind of normal work conversation, you want to be able to have the time and space in that discussion to listen to what they're saying, think about it and then respond. But if you're just reacting, you're going to have a really difficult time at being effective at getting to the outcome that you want, which is really the objective of kind of being assertive.
00:22:24
Speaker
I think you also raised a couple of good points there. There was one on which made me think around being assertive for the sake of your ego versus being assertive for the sake of the outcome. And I'm always kind of really outcome and accountability driven. But if people are being assertive because they want to be assertive as part of their ego, that's when you're gonna end up having a really unproductive conversation.
00:22:53
Speaker
The other thing that I think is quite important to talk about is the timing of being assertive. And this is perhaps less in the context of a project or a working group, but more in terms of being assertive about what you want for yourself. So for example, there might be a list of like four or five different things that you want for yourself in a work context. And maybe that's a promotion and a pay rise and to go to this conference and to do the sync.
00:23:20
Speaker
whatever. And I have found sequencing and prioritizing the asks that I want to assert for myself with my managers to be the most helpful thing because if you give them a laundry list of demands, that just comes across actually just annoying. I hate receiving a laundry list as well is much more effective to to sequence the things that you want to push forward. Yeah. And also like what is realistic and what is
00:23:50
Speaker
person who is going to be granting these things to you, actually able to do and like what's within their gift and their timeline. So it's, it is quite important, I think, to, for people if they are advocating for themselves to kind of think through how that might play
Negotiating Raises and Promotions
00:24:06
Speaker
out. And one thing that I think a lot of more junior people who've probably not managed people before don't realise is that when you ask your line manager,
00:24:16
Speaker
a question about like, when am I going to get a promotion or, you know, what you have those development conversations. It is not like the click of a button and I can give you a price. It's complicated and like three months of like dealing with HR stuff and finance and budget approvals. So I think a lot of people don't recognize that normally. And then they say, well, I asked them three months ago for a pay right. So I haven't got one.
00:24:43
Speaker
And without sight of so many of those barriers that happen internally after that. Yeah, and I think, you know, I was very late in my career when I realised how hard it could be in a bigger organisation to promote someone or to give them a pay rise. Because I'd always worked in these kind of smaller, less structured places. But
00:25:08
Speaker
the other thing is, you know, behind all of this process that managers have to go through is some logic around pay and progression and fairness and the way the company works and like, you know, trying to make sure that people aren't just promoting on preference, you know, and I think it is on the manager to
00:25:30
Speaker
just explain to you or to people when they ask for these things that these aren't just simple gifts to gifts that are completely within your control. The processes are there, they can take quite a long time and they are actually there because of an attempt to make things equal. I'm not sure that always works but you know that is the rationale for all of this.
00:25:54
Speaker
But let's go into like a really practical situation, bit of role play, perhaps, which is like, how would you advise me, if I'm just about to go into a pay review, to be assertive without coming across as aggressive, unreasonable, bossy, difficult? What would you advise that I do? Okay, so you're in a company and you want more money.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, I've been there two years, I've been at the same level, I've been frozen on a pay, you know, I've been frozen at like 50K and I wanna go up to 60 and I've heard that people in my team, potentially some men, are paid 70. So I'm actually only thinking that I'm gonna go into this asking for 60, because that's what I want. And that's what I think is realistic and, you know, I've only been there two years.
00:26:50
Speaker
What would you advise? How should I prepare for this meeting? How should I approach the conversation? How do I be assertive without coming across as demanding? Okay, great question. So every time I go into a pay negotiation or help other people with pay negotiations, there are a few things I always do. First is that you look at market rate. And that might be different if you've already been in the company for two years, you'll be off market rate probably by then.
00:27:20
Speaker
But it's always a good understanding. Below? Do you think below market rate? For sure. If you've been in the role for two years, you're already below market rate for sure. Totally agree. So understand what the current market rate is. If your colleagues feel comfortable telling you their pay, that is a very useful data point to have. I can say as a manager, sometimes it's a bit annoying when people talk about pay because it creates
00:27:49
Speaker
whole headache but that is also your job as a manager to unpick the headache even though you might not cause the headache. Would it come across, do you think it could come across as aggressive if I presented my two male colleagues 70 grand salary? I don't think it comes across as aggressive but I would also, if I were the manager, I would be thinking
00:28:13
Speaker
Is there anything else that explains that discrepancy other than their gender could possibly be? But if I were this person going into that meeting, I would also be leading with my performance and say, here are the things that I've done in the last two years. Here are the things that I've achieved for the business. I think I'm accelerating my progression and I understand that I'm actually one of the lower paid people in this team. And then I would also look at
00:28:44
Speaker
pay bands, I would say, I'm in this pay band, like what percentile am I in? So am I at the lower end of that pay band? If you know the pay band information, you know what the upper limit will be for what your manager would in theory be able to do. So you already know the range that you're looking at. And then I would also, I think it really depends on how important this is to the person. Let's say it's really important.
00:29:03
Speaker
if you're in a corporation that has
00:29:12
Speaker
I would just say, I really love working here, but you know, we've been through cost of living, inflation has been bonkers percent. I'm actually just, it's really important for me to get paid more. I think that's a hygiene factor for my role. I would really love for you to be able to do something about this. I would hate to start looking at other options. I really don't want to do that and I want to make this work, but I would love for your help to do that. I think that's probably how I'd approach it. Is there anything you do differently?
00:29:39
Speaker
I would give you a pay rise off that last speech. So logical. No, I think the good thing about like leading with your performance and leading with what you've done is that usually that's pretty factual. Like people don't argue with you led a project, you did this outcome, you know, and you can stand behind your own work with a lot of confidence and be assertive about it without it feeling
00:30:07
Speaker
arrogant, like it isn't arrogant to talk about what you've done factually, and say this created business value. And I would like to be fairly rewarded for that. I think it's still uncomfortable for a lot of people, I don't want to pretend that it's easy. But you know, there is something easier about looking at a set of facts than talking about a set of facts. Like it's not really opinion, whether you did this stuff, you did do it, it's that people know you did it. And I think that that's a really good starting point to
00:30:36
Speaker
you know make your case for whatever you want whether it's a pay rise whether it's to go to a conference whether it's you know progression or a job title change where i think it's it's much harder it's just like like i sort of want to pay rise because i've heard other people are getting one i've never had anyone present something like this to me to be honest like
00:30:58
Speaker
I've never really had someone have like a really terrible pay discussion with me. But I can imagine that it does happen because some people find it incredibly, incredibly hard to talk about their own achievements, and therefore will avoid it and will look to only anchoring them at their colleagues, or only anchoring them to the market. And that's quite a weak argument without you being assertive about your performance, I think. I've definitely had a number of people I've managed.
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah. And, and like, there is just nothing that I can or really should do in that scenario. If I'm being really blunt, like if someone is not a high performer, I'm going to have to go and do backflips for them to go get a pay rise. And, you know, I've had people I've managed where they have threatened to leave and say, Oh, this job is going to pay me, you know, 60 K more than I'm on now. And I'm like, amazing. I'm so happy for you. Congratulations. Off you go.
00:31:56
Speaker
I'm not going to be able to match that, that's obscene. Okay, so one thing I'm really curious about, because you're the sort of back from episode two, you're the boundary queen, you know, how do you think assertiveness relates to boundaries?
Assertiveness in Personal Boundaries
00:32:15
Speaker
And do you think that
00:32:20
Speaker
when a boundary is crossed, potentially you are more likely to move from assertive to aggressive. It's a really good question. So I think you should always just be assertive about your boundaries. And if anyone hasn't listened to episode two, we spoke about this a lot, but it's just being really clear about what you are and aren't willing to do and what feels right for you. I think when a boundary is crossed,
00:32:49
Speaker
I mean, a boundary exists because you get cross if someone crosses it. Like I get cross when people cross my boundaries. And I always have to take a moment to step back and try and respond rather than react to it. It is potentially where you're veering from being assertive to perhaps some of the shadow, the shadow sides of assertiveness. And
00:33:13
Speaker
I also think it's probably unfair to react that way if you've not really communicated the boundary. If people aren't aware that it's an explicit boundary and, you know, it's a boundary that you formed in your head and told no one about. They assume, assuming knowledge, you know, assuming that someone knows that that's, you've just, they just really crossed a line for you without having ever kind of expressed that that line exists. It's quite hard.
00:33:41
Speaker
one of I think the most challenging points to be assertive is when you're
00:33:48
Speaker
dealing with scenarios, meetings, people that are actually quite difficult and may like cross your boundaries quite regularly and quite a lot. And, you know, one thing I think can be helpful with being assertive but not aggressive is assuming positive intent, even when it's really, really, really difficult to. I actually
00:34:12
Speaker
i don't think to the point where like that can be weaponized against you like i don't think you assume positive intent all the time and everyone gets away with everything for it but i do think that in the majority of situations where someone is being
00:34:29
Speaker
really quite aggressive towards you or really quite authoritarian or maybe just clearly finding something you are saying quite hard to process. Assuming that they may not understand, you may have crossed one of their boundaries, but that they're not actually attacking you. They are just threatened in something that you have said.
00:34:49
Speaker
I think is a tip or a way to kind of keep yourself quite calm and therefore on the side of assertiveness and not aggression. Because certainly for me, when I think about when I'm an assertive, but I may have been, you know, what other people would have perceived to be aggressive, I don't think it's very often for me. But it would be when I'm finding a particular personality consistently, repetitively, incredibly hard to deal with.
00:35:19
Speaker
sometimes the difficult person isn't being difficult for the sake of being difficult with you, like they have other stuff going on, they're being triggered by something, you know, something is happening in their home. Okay, let's go to the questions because we had loads. Let's do it. There were some themes.
Perceptions and Adjustments in Assertiveness
00:35:39
Speaker
So we've potentially covered this, but maybe it's just five tips from you back. How can you come across as assertive without appearing as being a difficult woman and or being bossy and or being aggressive? Okay. I don't mind being difficult.
00:36:11
Speaker
I'm sort of fine with that. I think, well, like if you think about what makes a woman difficult, it's probably a woman that stands up for herself and challenges the status quo. And like, I'm on board. I'm on board of being difficult. So I would just encourage the listener who asked that question, and I'm sure there are many other listeners who have thought this as well, to just feel a bit more comfortable about being a challenger and being a disruptor.
00:36:40
Speaker
I think they're cool things. Reframe them. Yeah, reframe. I like it. Come into it. Bossy is just a silly word. I'm fine with being bossy too. I think being bossy is about actually underneath. If you take the connotations out of it, it's just about having authority and clarity. Probably wanting to get things done, wanting to actually see things happen. No bad thing. Yeah, accountability. That's a great word.
00:37:09
Speaker
And, um, we love those things. So again, I, I sort of, I don't really have a problem with being bossy either, but I'm going to try and answer this question in a way that the list, uh, the listener intended it, which was, um, how do you, I suppose, I suppose these are tips for tempering, um, your approach to being assertive to not stray into a higher spectrum of assertiveness. Um, so.
00:37:38
Speaker
I would probably just think around, is there a neutral way that you can phrase what you want to say that doesn't come across as being self-interested? I think a lot of these things come across as being self-interested. That's a good point. Neutrality, tip one. I like it. Neutral language. You could also tip two, just ask it through a question rather than say it.
00:38:09
Speaker
get other people to say what you're thinking, then they always think that it's a good idea. That's really helpful. In terms of being aggressive, I would probably just be on a vigilant watch for your tone.
00:38:31
Speaker
And I don't always get this right. Phone and body language as well. I think body language gets forgotten a lot. Like if you sound fine, but like you are really close to the screen or you are like gesticulating kind of quite aggressively or like, you know, I think there is body language cues that can also be really impactful. And yeah, one thing I would also say is like amongst your work,
00:38:59
Speaker
friends who are in these meetings with you or people that you really trust. One way to like sense check your tone if it's not something that you can self regulate is to ask for feedback in meetings, like just after meetings with someone you trust. How is my tone in that? Did I come across as annoyed? Yeah, and I would add one more.
00:39:17
Speaker
which is actually just your face. And I say this because I'm actually I'm really bad at this. And I wish I was better at it. And I thought I was actually pretty good at it until there was a particular meeting that went down in history is like maybe one of my worst meetings ever, where I had to rewatch the recording because we couldn't get consensus on something. And it was it was quite a hostile meeting. And I thought I was cheering it.
00:39:40
Speaker
quite neutrally and as I watched the recording, I just watched my face of thunder through the whole thing and I was like, oh, okay, we'll work on that one. So just think about your face. Yeah, that's a good one. My first ever bit of feedback professionally was someone just told me to change my face.
00:39:58
Speaker
you've got such a value. It doesn't feel very constructive, change your face. It doesn't feel actionable. It doesn't feel time bound. It doesn't feel specific. You know, everything I was expecting feedback to be. How does assertiveness promote constructive change?
Assertiveness for Constructive Change
00:40:21
Speaker
I love this question. I think
00:40:26
Speaker
underscoring assertiveness. And this is why I actually really like assertiveness is a kind of driving forward of something. It feels like there's action behind it. It feels like there's momentum with it. So I actually really associate assertiveness with constructive change. And it might not be that constructive if you end up in like a massive row with someone. But you would hope that the outcome overall of you asserting whatever it is that you're advocating for does lead to constructive change. So I actually think
00:40:55
Speaker
I think that's a great question. It's bang on. I think it's actually probably difficult to do constructive change without being assertive. What do you think? Yeah, I think that's...
00:41:08
Speaker
Yeah, there will be someone being assertive to promote constructive change in an organization. So yeah, I find the two are kind of inextricably linked, I would agree. And I think that also, as we've discussed, like, on particularly important issues, things that you feel really passionate about, you know, moral issues, like,
00:41:31
Speaker
being really assertive about them can create like so much power and so much influence and really accelerate change that might have taken years to happen in an organization. Oh, taste me. I love that. And, and I feel like this is a really amazing bit to kind of finish, finish the episode on. It's just around like social change. And
00:41:55
Speaker
and, you know, challenging, widely held positions that have like inequities in them and, and pushing for those and advocating for those and you could definitely not, not get the same amount of progress without without being assertive and being and you know, it is about challenging the status quo, but sometimes it's even just like educating people around
00:42:20
Speaker
This is what's happened. This has been discrimination. This is what I expect to change. And doing that in a really effective way, I think is so magical. So also big ups and thank you to everyone who does social change. It's such a magnificent field to be contributing to.
00:42:37
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Couldn't agree more. The only last thing I want to say before we end is some people put some quite weird words in these questions. It wasn't just bossy. Some people put things like soft, you know, that they wanted to be assertive, but also be soft.
00:42:59
Speaker
I don't know how you feel about that, but I feel like don't fucking waste your energy trying to be soft. You know, women have enough natural unavoidable characteristics and there's enough shit from the patriarchy to lead you to being categorised universally as soft and weak and, you know, small, but like,
00:43:24
Speaker
don't try and be soft at work. Like, I don't know, kind, yes, 100%, sensitive, empathetic, yes, none of those things are the word soft for me. I think if you tried to be soft and assertive, you just wouldn't be assertive. And you wouldn't be pushing for the things that you want. So
00:43:48
Speaker
I think you know this, there's also a whole spectrum of yourself at work and you're not ever going to be 100% sort of 100% of the time I think I'm probably actually assertive like
00:43:59
Speaker
one or two percent of the week. Yeah, it would be very tiring. It would be very tiring for most people to operate on high levels of assertiveness for more than kind of, I would say, five to ten percent. I would agree with you that soft is a bit of an odd word to hold on to as an aspiration. Yeah, I would aspire to be soft.
00:44:22
Speaker
Don't aspire to keep soft. No, we only want to leave soft for like furnishings, don't we? I just think that if you're soft at the expense of being assertive, you may find progression and driving forward the things that you want much more difficult than you would be if you just stopped caring about being soft.
00:44:52
Speaker
Because I think if you aspire to be soft, I'd assume you're naturally quite a gentle person. So you are naturally probably already like that and that's okay. Thanks for coming. Thanks for listening.
Podcast Conclusion and Feedback
00:45:08
Speaker
Thanks for making it so far into the episode. We are so grateful you are here and we are so grateful for all the feedback that you've been giving us on our little pod-y adventure. We've got new microphones today.
00:45:20
Speaker
Thanks for all the audio feedback. Thanks for all the sound feedback. Amateur hour over here, thank you. No, we are very grateful. You will be able to find us now on Spotify, Google, and Apple. So wherever you have found us, please like and subscribe and maybe give us some five stars. That would be so nice. It helps other people find us. All right, thanks so much.