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Understanding Transferable Skills – a conversation with Adam Mokhtar
18 Plays23 days ago
Adam Mokhtar runs Diogel an architecture company in North Wales. But Adam has had a very varied career, ranging from preacher to playing guitar in a rock band that performed at the Manchester MEN Arena.
As you would expect in a conversation about the transferability of skills Adam and host Michael Millward discuss a wide range of subjects as they explore how understanding the skills you have can open doors.
It is not all plain sailing for Adam. He also discusses the hardships that he has experienced, and how these have added to his transferable skillset.
Looking to the future Adam also explains how he intends to raise his sons so that they also enter the workforce understanding how to learn new skills and unlearn old skills so that they can enjoy continuous employment.
This episode of The Independent Minds is useful listening for people who are facing a change and see only the negative outcomes.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Find out more about both Michael Millward and Adam Mokhtar at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
Colin is based in North Wales, a very beautiful part of the United Kingdom. When I visit North Wales, I make my travel arrangements with The Ultimate Travel Club, because as a member I can access trade prices for flights, hotels and holidays. You can also become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
Matchmaker.fm
Thank you to the team at Matchmaker.fm the introduction to Adam Mokhtar.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Adam, you have something very interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
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Being a Guest
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Independent Minds' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between abecida and people who think outside the box about how work works. With the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone,
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, the managing director of Abyssida.
Why Use Zencastr?
00:00:28
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencaster. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, Amazon, and YouTube Music.
00:00:51
Speaker
It really does make making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster dot.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description.
00:01:09
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Sancaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading, and subscribing to. As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Meet Adam Mactar
00:01:31
Speaker
Today, my guest Independent Mind, who I met at matchmaker dot.fm, is Adam Mactar.
00:01:38
Speaker
Adam has had an interesting career involving many twists and turns, including jobs ranging from sales to design and even a preacher. Today we are going to find out how he has been able to have such a diverse career. Adam. Hey, I'm okay there.
00:01:56
Speaker
Nice to meet you, Adam. Tell me, what is the name of the company that you now run? So it's Diagell, which means safety and security. So it's Diagell Architecture. Which is the reason why I asked Adam to tell me the name of the company because Adam is based in North Wales on Anglesey, actually. So the company name is Welsh for safety and security. You learn something new every day.
00:02:25
Speaker
Now, if you are ever visiting Wales, I recommend you do like I do and make your travel arrangements through the Ultimate Travel Club. That is where you will get access to trade prices on flights, hotels and all sorts of other travel related purchases. There is a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now, Adam, can we start with you just like putting a bit more meat on the bones of your CV and
Career Journey of Adam Mactar
00:02:52
Speaker
please? Yeah, sure. I mean, like in terms of My professional world started architecture in 2001, left 2004 to go and be a rock and roll star. 2006 played the M.E.N. Arena in front of 17,500 people. 2007 got in with Coldplay's lawyers and Kasabian's tour management and Muse's PR agency, recorded in 2007. And then 2008, we like played in front of every man and his dog.
00:03:25
Speaker
And ah unfortunately, by 2009, it was over. The dream was that. But during that period, I worked in architectural practice for about five years, worked at Tall Talk Business, and which I got up to be in the sales manager there. I worked as a national trainer at BT and found myself selling furniture at wholesale level dams in Kirby in 2009. So I returned back to oxford at architecture in 2010.
00:03:56
Speaker
And I started a firm 2012 in a year, got a contract in Heathrow Airport, and over about nine years, increased that team to about 13 staff, doing about 750K. But I had my son in 21, on my eldest, and he just put things into perspective for me, really. So I gave up that practice, gave it to my business partner, and started afresh with the Argyll architecture in November of 21.
00:04:24
Speaker
You've created a business now which enables you to better balance family and work commitments. Correct. Yeah. I mean, I still put in 40 to 50 hours a week, but I do that over a three or four day week instead. That means I get one complete day with the kids.
00:04:43
Speaker
which is fantastic and so I've seen my eldest's first steps and like when he when he stood up for the first time that was amazing and a lot of the dads unfortunately don't get that opportunity so it was well worth like quote unquote sacrifice. There's been all sorts of various different things in your career like this you're a rock star you've played the men arena you've been in with bands like Coldplay but you've also been a preacher how did that happen and how does that connect in with with everything
Values and Upbringing: Discipline and Hard Work
00:05:12
Speaker
else?
00:05:12
Speaker
Well, like a plastic mold, like yeah you end up being the product of your environment. But I would say the group with a strict upbringing, which definitely like kind of left a mark on me. And it still did me like a clear message about the importance of just doing well, whether it was in school or in my career or in my life in general.
00:05:33
Speaker
and And it told me the value of discipline and the hard work, so lessons that have stayed with me throughout that journey. And I use that in my music career to like dig deep. I use that in sales environments to keep pushing and use that in business to be able to like build and obviously use it in family life to endure and to always look for the the positive outcome.
00:06:01
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine that if you're a preacher, you're not always talking to the converted. Yeah, most certainly not. Well, I mean, there's plenty of opportunity where you do speak to the already converted and you just kind of further in that idea. But when you're speaking to people with views that may not be in line or views which are completely opposed, it's important to understand how to diplomatically kind of negotiate that process.
00:06:28
Speaker
and be able to come out with essentially the outcome that
Balancing Work and Family Life
00:06:32
Speaker
you're looking for. This is one of the things that really has enabled you to have such a varied career and now to have a career which actually rather than defining how you're able to interact with your family really enables or facilitates the type of interaction with your family that you want rather than the other way around. You you are really working to live rather than living to work. That's that's the situation that you're in.
00:06:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, like when you're speaking to people with different cultures, beliefs, way of life, and it really teaches you empathy, compassion, and the importance of giving back. And when you translate that into like a domestic environment, or you translate that into a professional environment, really those core elements are cornerstone really and and paramount.
00:07:24
Speaker
The transferable skill from that time as a preacher, which was fairly early on in your career, wasn't it? That's, you're always still school age in your teenage years. yeah But in that period of time, you learned how to interact with people. Yeah. So we were probably about 12 when we started to go and do that kind of work.
00:07:45
Speaker
up until I was 17 and often you're speaking to kids um or up of people people people who were younger than us at the time and being able to kind of instill in them those core beliefs. Obviously that wasn't from a preaching um outside of the faith capacity but and that was more about and those like kind of core beliefs, but also about film yeah know i can and speaking and with people six times your age. So from what you're saying, it gives you the confidence to be able to talk to people who are older than you are.
00:08:21
Speaker
which
Insights from Sales and Preaching
00:08:22
Speaker
many teenagers would not even have the opportunity to try talking to adults who they weren't related to or weren't in school with or where the adult wasn't in a position of authority, you were in a position to actually have proper adult to adult conversations with people who were six times your age.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah. and the And the key thing there was really about just identifying what similarities there were. And, you know, like we all, and i like, certainly when you're speaking to somebody d six, six times your age, they've been your age. So a lot of the time they want to talk to you anyway, and there is a relatability there. And in the same way, if you speak to somebody younger than you, they, you're like, you've been their age and you know what sensibilities they may have.
00:09:13
Speaker
So everything starts from a common place and then it's about taking conversation in a direction that you're looking for very much. what you're doing here. Yes. I'm trying to do it here, but listening to you, like you're explaining things that I hadn't actually really thought about, it but it's almost like the experience that you're describing is the ideal sales training course.
00:09:40
Speaker
you know and If you are, as you did going to go into heavily commissioned or commissioned only sales, then you really need to know how to talk to people.
00:09:52
Speaker
That's true, but when you think about it on a the most basic level, what we were actually doing there is trying to change people's beliefs, whether they were already in the faith or not. What you're doing in sales is something to a ah much lesser extent, although people can be very much attached to their core beliefs regardless.
00:10:13
Speaker
like whether it was the phone contract or, I mean, speak to an Apple user and try to get them to change to Android. It's incredibly laborious of that. Oh, I had one of those here last week. We are at Androids. We use Androids here at Abbasida. And somebody joined us who was so used to the Apple phones. And it's always like the the induction process, the whole day on how to use an Android phone as a how to use an Apple phone. And you're thinking like,
00:10:43
Speaker
Do we really have to be just one or the other? Can't we just like use whatever it is that we want to use or get along? yeah but the thing is it's there it Apple have got it very cleverly worked out where it's self indoctrination. If you really kind of pick it, not in a bad way here, but obviously if you pick a religion, there is a lot of self indoctrination happening there.
00:11:07
Speaker
and that's why it's so heavily embedded. I used to be an Android user and now I'm Apple and I wouldn't go back but the core thing is is that you know that actually really all that's happened is they've got the hooks in you and you can't possibly move out from that. e goes or that that that environment without an incredible you know like kind of restructuring of your life. I'm imagining that you hear stories of people queuing up outside Apple stores at midnight to be there when the shop opens so they can get the latest model. um You don't hear the same stories about Android phones. That's it, because they've developed a culture. yeah And that that culture is reminiscent of religion. um i'm I'm a crossfitter.
00:11:54
Speaker
and like And maybe I subscribed to CrossFit for exactly that reason. It's been heavily described as you like a a cult in in the past. And the the whole thing when you're like kind of growing up in that kind of environment where you're heavily passionate and you kind of you're you're incredibly well-read about a singular subject.
00:12:19
Speaker
then what that means is that you almost justify that internally and that makes it incredibly easy to talk to people about. Find somebody who's really in love with their football club and know everything about it. They would never change their team and they know everything.
00:12:43
Speaker
about it, which is really what but it comes down to.
Sales as Guidance and Building Resilience
00:12:47
Speaker
It's been, you know, they've reinforced that over v years and years. So success then in the sales part of your career, where you're a commission only salesperson, part of that success then is based on either consciously or subconsciously adopting the same type of approach to the selling of the product. You have to believe in the product. You have to be passionate about the product in the same way as someone who's a preacher is passionate about the message that they are preaching. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the misconceptions about sales is that you're trying to change that person. You're trying to sell to them. You're trying to get them to buy. While in reality,
00:13:34
Speaker
the best salespeople are just trying to get the person to make a decision. Like, do you want this or don't you? Because I will move on. And that's what you're, ah you know, because I'll just pick up the phone to somebody else. I took out ah took commission only sales just purely out of necessity. Like it wasn't a choice. and But I ended up having to do it because once you worked in architecture for five years,
00:14:00
Speaker
you start to become unemployable in other industries. Yeah, I would say that growing up in that religious environment allowed me to really transfer that idea of taking what somebody holds dear, understanding it, and then determining whether this was the right choice for them.
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's very interesting. Or equally when I was selling for talk talk business of the evening, I'd work and sell for orange at the time. And we would change people from orange during the day to it talk talk and we change people from talk talk to orange during the night because there are always pluses and minuses to every single option that you take out there and fundamentally like another core idea is that anytime you say yes to something you say no to an infinity of options and you can play on that
00:15:01
Speaker
to to ten to depend on whether that's the right option for them and that's only through question and fully understanding what they hold as being important. yeah The sales process is about getting the answers to those questions so that the person can answer their own questions. Correct, yeah. yeah like Often the best sales is not about being pushy but really just about asking enough questions to kind of make it self-evident that that's the right direction to go and and that's equally true and religious kind of preaching and you you are fundamentally trying to find a way to go and demonstrate that well it's self-evident. You mentioned there that you'd worked five years in architecture which made you
00:15:54
Speaker
unemployable in anything else. So you had to take on commission only sales jobs, but they're so completely different. You know, I could describe architecture as conventional, respectable, middle-class profession to go into, you know, very secure, very aspirational for other people. People would be impressed that you, you're an architect type person.
00:16:18
Speaker
But people don't view people who work in commission only sales jobs in the same sort of way, do they? It's a complete, not just a complete job shift or career shift or financial shift in the way in which you go from knowing how much money you're going to earn in a week to not knowing. It's a societal shift as well. It's like,
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, we liked you when you were an architect, you could hang out with us and now you're a commission only salesperson. Was there any of that or is that my misconception? Absolutely. It's high energy, isn't it? Sales. It's got to be, it's got to be. While architecture is very kind of contemplative and and it's often like in a romanticized tim film and in that way then a lot of people do have the misconceptions about it. It's romanticized on TV while if you try to find the sales TV show which doesn't show this like hyper eccentric sales base and
00:17:23
Speaker
Now you've got the architecture programs, like does romanticise the idea of of designing a property? The only sales type program that I can think of would be the apprentice. Oh yeah, true. And that exactly, so normally the type of person that, you know, the way that they get on there is by blowing their own trumpet and saying how absolutely amazing they are as a person and and watching them like fall apart. and Really, the reality is that sales is a very human, basic skill. When we go on
00:17:58
Speaker
meet somebody on a first date. That is the sale. right That is essentially trying to sell yourself. You're trying not to miss sell yourself or you should be trying not to miss sell yourself as well. And there is a tactic in dating culture where you just go and put all your cards on the table.
00:18:17
Speaker
and you try to end it with a positive. ah yeah I've got a bad temper, but I'm um an amazing person and I listen. So i'm I'm a firm believer that actually sales should be ported at elementary level and further, really. It's about and relationships, like you say.
00:18:36
Speaker
Correct, yeah, and that's the human experience, surely. And when you're working inside an architectural site, where better to know how to sell than when you've got to try to go and convey an idea of a project and nobody's listening.
00:18:50
Speaker
getting people to to listen to you. See, that raises one of the questions that as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking like, yeah, you can change jobs. And there's there's been periods, I think, where you've earned quite large amounts of money and been very successful. And it sounds also as as if there have been at times when life has been tough, not just bad days, but life has been tough.
00:19:16
Speaker
And yet I get the feeling that alongside the skills in relationship development and the skills that you've transferred between all of these different jobs and and seeing the connections between the preaching, the architecture, the selling, the running your own business, the being a franchisee, all those sorts of things.
Building Resilience Through Challenges
00:19:39
Speaker
You've also had to develop like real serious, soft skills, like the mental resilience and the personal robustness to be able to cope with all of those bad times as well as keep your feet on the ground during the good times. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as, as we said before, my strict upbringing, my dad was Egyptian military and was like very, very much like a strict religious man as well. And,
00:20:07
Speaker
there were plenty of good times there was also like a a lot of like discipline and um and elements that like on on a surface level you know you would like to change however one of the great things. I think A was Tony Robbins really made me think about it objectively which is like that's what's molded you. That's what's made you the person that you are and rather than like kind of feeling negative towards those experiences just kind of changing the perspective on it and thinking well if it wasn't for that I wouldn't be able to endure
00:20:44
Speaker
what I can and I wouldn't be able to smile in the face of adversity as it were, then you should celebrate that. And it's very hard to give somebody else that experience. Like really, you know, like a diamond only comes out a diamond after and great incredible pressure and it won't turn into a diamond without that. Yeah, that's very true. You need to be able to endure, to be able to come out on the other side and know what you're capable of.
00:21:11
Speaker
And then that way then when things are tough, it's not going to be as tough as the experience that you've had. So in that way, somebody saying no to me really just doesn't bother me. No matter how bad next Tuesday is, it's never going to be as bad as what you've already got got yourself through. Exactly. So you should almost wish to be able to be put under some some experience like that.
00:21:39
Speaker
need to find the situations almost that where you will put yourself into pressure, where you will see how how you cope with those types of situations. It'll probably be badly, but that's good because the next time it happens. You're equipped. Exactly. Yeah.
00:21:54
Speaker
your cry It's almost like you are saying, you know, you have a bad experience. Anybody on the outside looking in would say, that's a terrible thing to have happen. But your view is like you can either let that experience break you or make you. And you've opted to allow all of those experiences to make you.
00:22:14
Speaker
Exactly. You know, like a lot of people seem to be wearing these kind of experiences or, or whatever is, you know, like they define them. And that's really one of the most problematic kind of ways to look at it. Yes, it's happened to you, but you also like, I don't know, had a off-yog at once. Alongside all of the negative things that have happened, what you're saying is there will also be lots of positive things that have happened. You don't need to focus on the negative thing.
00:22:44
Speaker
And there's always somebody who's had it so much worse than what you have, who's come out so much better than what you have. Like, it's not an excuse. It is your experience. And that's fine. But it's not an excuse.
00:22:59
Speaker
What sort of advice you will give forgive your son so that he doesn't have to experience what you've experienced in the past and will actually enter the workforce better equipped to be successful because you've shared his your experience with him.
Preparing Children for Challenges
00:23:16
Speaker
ah What a question. and That's a good one, mate. That's a good one. My intention, bear in mind that my kids are three and one. My intention is to provide them with hardship.
00:23:28
Speaker
not not in the same way, but to let them experience it and to be able to push through that. And that will be through camping outdoors in the cold. That will be through CrossFit or working out. That will be through doing treks. It will be... Pushing yourself, basically. Yeah, just pushing yourself. And in terms of the the mental robustness kind of element,
00:23:57
Speaker
is the not being embarrassed like putting them into experiences and environments which will shape that so taking up martial arts box by doing team sports as well as individual sports whatever they choose to go and do in the end i'm not going to throw them into a ring unprepared but to try to promote the whole idea of working under duress and being able to shift perspective. I think that's that that that's it. As long as I can keep putting them in different and varied environments, I will be sure to shape their experience. So it's it's almost providing the opportunity for people to succeed, but it also at the same time not avoiding the potential to fail.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, I want him to fail a lot be to be able to come out as successful at the end. In the end, like I will never lose a race to him unless he wins the race. I will never lose a game to him unless unless he wins the game. Oh, your crew. Yeah, but if you think about it, on the other side, I'm robbing him of the experience of the first time he beat his dad. Oh yes. And that day will come, i you know, like he will eventually be fitted with me and he will eventually we have all being well or they will be
00:25:30
Speaker
more cognitively ah able. Yes, yeah, I'm remembering a friend of mine who went, was on holiday in Wales, went for a jog with his youngest son and kept pace with his youngest son until they were about 100 metres away from the cottage that they were staying in and then his son said, I'll see you back at the cottage and his son just flew.
00:25:54
Speaker
And he just couldn he just couldn't keep up with him. And it's all like, he just said, like, right fine, he's beaten me. The youngest one of three has beaten me. I'm now going to get the slippers and sit by the fire and they can get me a cup of tea. Yeah, exactly. Play that game. Yes. And that's good for you mentally.
00:26:12
Speaker
it was part of the fact that his son is now his youngest son is now becoming a man is growing up it's exactly what you say when the time was right for him to be beaten by his son his son seemed to know and took that opportunity to show his dad i'm growing into a man and i can beat you the other thing is if you don't have that line then where are you going to put it like when at what age are you going to start to compete like all to go and offer a challenge. He will always look at it as a challenge until the day that he surpasses me and then it will be a milestone.
00:26:52
Speaker
What you're saying in terms of advice that you would give to someone else who yeah wants to have a career, wants to have a a range of skills is like you've got to look for the opportunities where you might fail and don't go looking for something. Oh, it doesn't matter if I fail. Correct. Yeah. And that way you grow. That way you grow.
00:27:15
Speaker
But go for the things that you are going to enjoy. Go for the things that matter to you. Go for the things that are important. But if you don't succeed, don't give up. Learn from it and move on to the next type of situation.
00:27:33
Speaker
and accept, I suppose, what we're saying is like is that nothing stays the same. As we develop, as human beings, as we help other human beings to develop, nothing stays the same. We have to be prepared to accept the fact that we are going to change, but look for the opportunities to allow the bad times to enhance the good times.
00:27:59
Speaker
I've learnt an awful lot today, Adam. Thank you very much.
Episode Summary and Takeaways
00:28:02
Speaker
It's been really, very interesting for me. Thank you very much. but though It's been really good speaking to you. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Adam Makhtar, who is a great example of the advantages of understanding the transferability of skills and learning from adversity. You can find out more about both of us at abecedah.co.uk. There is a link in the description.
00:28:32
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker dot.fm for introducing me to Adam. If you are a podcaster like me looking for interesting guests, or if like Adam you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker dot.fm is where matches of great hosts and even greater guests are made. There is a link to matchmaker dot.fm and an offer code in the description.
00:28:56
Speaker
If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3 has the UK's fastest 5G network at the time of recording with unlimited data. So listening on 3 means that you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:29:25
Speaker
I can't help but feel that that description is going to be well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe.
00:29:42
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abecedah is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.