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Using AI in Marketing – a conversation with David Patrykowski
0 Playsin 9 hours
When the bad news hit David Patrykowski knew that he could have avoided the agony of almost losing his business if he had taken notice of, and understood the data that his business was generating.
Like many entrepreneurs David had simply got on with the work.
Now, David understands all the data that his business creates and has built a business to help other businesses understand their data and utilise it so that managers can make better decisions.
In this episode of the Abecederpodcast The Independent Minds, David explains to host Michael Millward the products his company has created and the benefits they will provide for users.
David and Michael discuss how marketers are using Artificial Intelligence (AI) to enhance their decision making, and how over use of AI can have a negative impact on customer relations.
During their conversation David raises concerns about how marketing and IT departments interact, and the problems this can create for both organisations and their customers.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, and David Patrykowski at Abeceder.co.uk
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Matchmaker.fm If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like David, you have something interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
Travel
David is based in Coventry, in Warwickshire. Members of the Ultimate Travel Club, can travel to Coventry at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays and all sorts of other travel purchases. You can become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
Fit For Work Look after your health and you will be fit for work.
It is always a good idea to know the risks early so that you can take appropriate actions to maintain good health, that is why we recommend The Annual Health Test from York Test.
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Visit York Test and use this discount code MIND25.
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Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Independent Minds' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to the Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:23
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysida.
Focus on AI in Marketing with David Patrykowski
00:00:28
Speaker
Today, am going to be learning about using artificial intelligence in marketing from David Patrykowski, a director of Bakona.
00:00:40
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencastr. Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform that really does make every stage of the podcast production process, including publishing and distribution, so easy.
00:00:59
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysseedah. All the details are in the description.
00:01:10
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. you As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Guest Introduction: David Patrykowski and AI in Marketing
00:01:30
Speaker
to- Today, my guest Independent Mind, who I met on Matchmaker.fm, is David Patrykowski, a director at Bacona, a company that develops so AI applications for marketing.
00:01:44
Speaker
David is based in Coventry. in Warwickshire, a place I have never been sent to. If I do get sent there, I will be sure to make my travel arrangements at the Ultimate Travel Club because at the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, holidays, and so many other travel-related purchases.
00:02:06
Speaker
You can also access those trade prices on travel by joining the Ultimate Travel Club. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
David's Journey and Data-Driven Marketing
00:02:16
Speaker
Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds and say, hello, David.
00:02:23
Speaker
um Hello, Michael. Thank you for having me. Nice to have you here. Could we start, please, by you explaining a little bit about who you are, what's been your journey? Yeah, I am an an entrepreneur since I was 18. I am 34 years old now, and I had my first company for about 10, 12 years. It was a marketing agency.
00:02:44
Speaker
After that time, I decided to step down and my wife took over. So I had a chance to build another company called Bacona, which currently is my main focus. We develop a lot of products and services around marketing and marketing data. Before we go on then, just to be like gentlemen, your wife is now running your first company.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yes, better than I did. Brilliant. That's no surprise. No surprise. I'm sure it's always the way. But so what is the name of that first company? So the company is called SLT Media. It's a marketing agency.
00:03:19
Speaker
They do a lot of graphic design, web development, campaigns on social media. Yeah, creative stuff. Brilliant. You set up a company when you were 18 and you're now 34. You transfer your business to your wife who now runs it better than you do so that you can concentrate on something which I think, from what you're saying, probably started off as a bit of a passion project and is now a fully fledged business.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah, she was always helping me to grow the business and I just decided that it's time to try something else and I fell off in data. So just continued my path, being more data driven.
00:03:55
Speaker
Brilliant. I detect a bit of an accent there. So you're not originally from Coventry, are you? No, I'm from Poland and I landed in Coventry when I was 14. ah My parents brought me to UK.
00:04:07
Speaker
So that that's how it all started UK. Well, did you know you were going to stay here? No, it was a total surprise. and So my parents told me we're going for a holiday.
00:04:19
Speaker
And I'm still on this holiday till now, I would say. Of course, I'm but very thankful because having two businesses ah in Poland is a little bit more difficult comparable to UK.
00:04:31
Speaker
I love how helpful and how supportive UK is and how easy it is to actually start a self-employed business and then LTD company.
00:04:42
Speaker
and register for VAT and stuff like that. It is so user-friendly, I would say. and Yeah, so it was a surprise and I had to adapt. And I think this flexibility stayed with me and helped me in the business in the long term.
00:04:58
Speaker
So what does Bacona
Exploring Bacona AI and Marketing Data Insights
00:05:00
Speaker
do? I noticed like two, three years ago, I noticed that a lot of people that work within the marketing industry don't enjoy data.
00:05:09
Speaker
They don't like Google Analytics and... It's always and like a difficult task for them to go to the software, grab some data and use it to make right decisions.
00:05:21
Speaker
and so um And also no one likes doing reports. It's a bit of a boring ah task to do. Non-creative. Creative is a key word though, isn't it really in marketing people?
00:05:33
Speaker
Every marketing person wants to be really creative. And I think what you've highlighted is that because now so much marketing is done online, doesn't there's still non-online marketing happening, I know, but online marketing is increasing.
00:05:49
Speaker
And it is so much easier to gather the data around that, that I suppose it's ah a bit of a silly thing not to do something with it. I remember when I started Abbasida,
00:06:01
Speaker
people said, oh, you've got to do some advertising. And I said, yeah, but I've only got a very small amount of money. So what advertising should I do? they came back, well, you just have to advertise because you've got no way of working out which is the 20% of your advertising that will work because 80% of your advertising won't work type of thing. And yet that's when you say all of this data That's one of the things that improves. You're able to do more effective marketing because of the
The Role of Data in Marketing Optimization
00:06:31
Speaker
data.
00:06:31
Speaker
And yet so many marketeers are not utilizing that data. Exactly. I'm surprised how well you understand the industry. and And I would say ah when you said eight eighty twenty I believe that's the case. When I look at when i look at the data, because customers often provide me access and to analyze what what's happening. and then And I used to do it a lot manually before the software was was in place.
00:07:00
Speaker
um So yeah, I've seen there is a big waste ah in a lot of channels and campaigns because of the lack of measurement and using this data to to improve.
00:07:12
Speaker
So yeah, that's that's a big problem. It's it's a big waste. And marketing is not is an expensive thing for every business. It costs a lot. and Yeah, I agree with you. It is very expensive. But I think also that one of the key things to remember is that any entrepreneur, regardless of what your business was set up to do,
00:07:32
Speaker
One of your key activities is selling the activities of the business. So every entrepreneur has to be a marketeer, has to be a salesperson. And that becomes easier when you're dealing with data that can tell you where to focus your next move, youre your activities.
00:07:50
Speaker
That's the case. That's the case. I actually don't like this fact, you know, that we sometimes have professionals that can create ah beautiful things and just can't sell this.
00:08:00
Speaker
Or actually people can solve a lot of problems, but just can't reach the right audience and you know start the business and start getting clients because they need marketing and sales skill. And not every single person is a specialist in this field.
00:08:16
Speaker
So and you know as a specialist in the marketing, I feel like an opposite. I feel like I can communicate and sell to people, but I don't have the The value, that's what I thought before when I had an agency.
00:08:30
Speaker
But you know now we're building the products and and and helping other businesses. Sorry, when you say products, what products have you created?
Bacona's Additional Products and Compliance Tools
00:08:40
Speaker
ons and so we've got three products at this stage.
00:08:43
Speaker
and The main one is called Bacona AI, and and it allows people to chat with their marketing data ah in a chat interface. ah Ask about insights, ask about visitors, ask about the return of of investments.
00:08:59
Speaker
and channels that they come from and stuff like that so it rolled off your tongue in a very easy sort of way but i just want to check and make sure that i understand what that product will do berkona you ask a question and the ai is looking at your data and will give you the answer so you don't need to necessarily and Well, you're not analyzing it yourself. You are asking the question.
00:09:27
Speaker
have See, I can remember days when from the computer we get pages and pages of computer paper, which you never see anymore, which just figures on. And then you have to sit down and sort of go through them manually and work them all out. What you're describing is like you type a question in and the the AI comes back with the answer based upon the data that you've given it.
00:09:50
Speaker
And you already collect this data because we we built connectors to the popular softwares like Google Analytics, a Search Console. and We're going to have Google Ads coming soon.
00:10:02
Speaker
um So businesses already collect this data. So what they need to do is just connect and now they have access to the insights. um Yeah, that's that's how it works basically.
00:10:15
Speaker
it's I suppose what you're doing then is turning data into information and then creating knowledge from that. And trying to identify bottlenecks, trying to identify the mistakes in the marketing, which happens sometimes.
00:10:32
Speaker
um So, yeah, it's like having an analyst working for you twenty four seven that speaks your language. That sounds really great. What is the next product that you've created? So the next one is called Clever Analytics, and and it helps to collect more data ah because people use like VPNs and ad blockers.
00:10:53
Speaker
ah So we're trying to make data more accurate. So when they use Bacona AI to analyze it, ah they can at least analyze more data and in an accurate way. So these tools is quite technical and this tool is quite technical and helps you collect more data in your Google Analytics. and And the third product, it's a cookie scanner.
00:11:15
Speaker
ah for a UK market ah that allows people to check what cookies are being collected before the consent and after the consent. Because what I noticed is 70% of the website in u kmark in UK market have a broken consent. So no matter what you click on it, ah it's still going to collect the data.
00:11:36
Speaker
And I'm trying to change this. Because I was going to say... that those two first products that you talk about are almost dependent for their effectiveness on people saying, yeah, you can collect the cookies.
00:11:50
Speaker
You know, I don't mind you analyzing the way in which I've moved around your website. I don't mind you recording how long I spent at something, all that sort of information. Yes. And, uh,
00:12:01
Speaker
I'm trying to build a cross-sell and make it all in one place. Yes. But the third product that you talk about is very much, I think, one for the actual user to be able to make sure that when they say to a site, I don't want you to collect my cookie data, that their data isn't collected.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yes. And also for the marketing teams to be able to check if... if we actually compliant because people don't have, you need to have a, special it's very hard to find an IT specialist, a software engineer that understands marketing as well. It's very rare. I think some people might also say that the opposite is true as well.
00:12:39
Speaker
If you're a marketeer, you probably think that the IT people don't understand marketing, but... If you're an IT person, you probably think the marketing people don't understand the IT. I'm with you. You're very open-minded and i think it works both ways. Exactly. i is does I'm an HR professional, so I've got to sit in the middle somewhere. I can't be criticizing anyone. You are an extremely good one, so I hope I can use and i can help i can use your services one day. and Yeah, so ah definitely. and and And I'm just trying to educate people because I don't want my data to be collected if I don't give a consent.
00:13:13
Speaker
And the kind of the tools that that we use in the marketing and analytics, we can record the entire screen, mouse movements, It's like, you know, it's quite creepy and you can watch people moving around your website and then filling in the contact form so you can actually identify the person. And I'm quite scared of UK neglecting this.
00:13:36
Speaker
But, you know, the thing is, I've got no idea how to approach the government. And I don't think government will be open to talk to me about this. I even tried contacting the ICO and no response from their side. Your MP.
00:13:49
Speaker
Contact your MP. it It is frightening to think that someone somewhere could be watching what you're doing on your computer on your computer whilst you're connected to the internet.
00:13:59
Speaker
And at the same sort of time, though, we use that same technology for a very positive reason. If we have a problem with our computer, we phone up the IT department, they log into the machine and actually go through work on on the machine, on our computer.
00:14:15
Speaker
rather than us having to go through, as we did in the early days, well, it says this on the screen. and And then what happened before that, all sorts of things. There was a good side and a bad side too every technological advance. And you're highlighting one of the negative sides Yeah, I'm happy to talk about the one positive one, which is optimizing the user experience based on data, because that's what we do with the data.
00:14:39
Speaker
So, for example, when the Amazon started, ah think it took them about 13 clicks ah for average person to make a purchase on Amazon. Do you know how many clicks it takes now? It's zero. We can just talk to Alexa and it will make a purchase.
00:14:56
Speaker
So that's how it's it's all changed based on data as well. And I believe, you know, we're just making it easy for people to use the website to to find the right product so they don't have to search long. So it has a benefit for people as well, I believe. Yes.
00:15:13
Speaker
But it's good to give a consent. At least it's good to give people choice if they would like to contribute or not. So, and yeah, so we also have the scanner that will,
00:15:23
Speaker
help people, and we also do the cookie consents ourselves. like we we We put them on the websites the proper way And that also is an important part of collecting the data. So what came first then? Was it you being a marketing agency and realizing that the data wasn't being used properly?
00:15:44
Speaker
Or was it the realization that people were having data collected that they didn't hadn't consented to? What was the the sort of and genesis, the starting point of the new business?
Lessons from Financial Challenges and Data Appreciation
00:15:59
Speaker
So the kind catalyst was me being a very bad entrepreneur. ah ah So i was my own catalyst. Basically, I put my first business, the agency, in debt of unpaid taxes.
00:16:14
Speaker
ah It was about £60,000, which was lot for me. ah That was like five, six years ago. So I managed to put the company in in problems ah by not looking at the data at all.
00:16:28
Speaker
ah So I didn't know what kind of taxes to expect. I didn't know what's the profit margin per each service that we did. So i I had an impression of making a profit, but then the bill comes in of like 7,000 pounds to pay, for example.
00:16:43
Speaker
And then my day was like ruined. And I was like, oh, HMRC are bad guys, you know, but it's not their fault. It's my fault. So I had to learn this hard way. I cons consulted with one company that looked at my finances. It was quite embarrassing for me too to show your finances. Can you imagine like being so transparent with other people that you don't know?
00:17:07
Speaker
And they taught me actually how to how to look at my data and how to measure profits and outcomes. And because it's tricky in the agency, you have five people in one project, you have to measure how much time it takes.
00:17:23
Speaker
So I started like you know making those baby steps. I started to implement those changes. My team was not happy about it because we had to move away from office to to home because I couldn't before COVID. So it was quite a new thing for us.
00:17:38
Speaker
and But then everybody started to work from home. So I was i was okay with it. But then I started to ask them about how much time it takes so we can measure the profitability.
00:17:49
Speaker
And they didn't they think I didn't trust them. There was like a lot of you know complicated conversations with the team. ah But the reason was just to help us survive, basically. And it ah and it did. We paid off the debt.
00:18:03
Speaker
And then I fell off in data because it actually solved my problem. So your problem became your passion. You experienced, had a very bad experience, for serious situation to be in with the HMRC and that His Majesty's revenue and customs, they don't mess about, do they?
00:18:21
Speaker
Difficult phone calls and difficult letters with a red heading. We're going to send someone to you, basically. and That's what it meant. But if if you are open and honest and like with them, then they can be also very supportive and it's Oh, they did. They did split that into monthly payments. I was open to to converse with them, even though it was a hard conversation. Yeah.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, very helpful. I think like if that was a different country, i could be in prison basically in some of the countries. like you know You work your way through it, you get the support, you put the effort in you show that you are willing to put right the mistakes that you make and you learn from them. And out of that comes a new business, which is employing more people.
00:19:07
Speaker
So everyone's a winner essentially. But your put your problem became your passion and this interest in data and the need to actually use it. and What you're highlighting, I suppose, with my HR hat on is that if you're into data, then you're into data. And that's fantastic. But a huge numbers of people don't take the time to understand it. And that is the lesson of your experience is that if you have data available to you,
00:19:32
Speaker
learn from it, understand it, put it into action, make it work for itself so that you can make your organization, your business more effective, more profitable and stronger for the future.
00:19:43
Speaker
That's what I'm picking up from from what you're saying. Thank you, Michael. That's ah very good lesson. And I've got a question to you because you speak with a bigger number of people than I do. and Did you ever notice when you speak with with your guests that sometimes the problems they had ah in the long term turned out to be a positive thing? Very definitely.
00:20:06
Speaker
Very, very definitely. Across all of the podcasts that we produce at Abbasida, the conversations with guests who are talking about an issue that they had, a challenge, a problem, whichever word you want to use, um when they actually took a constructive perspective of it,
00:20:21
Speaker
and what they could learn from it and started to put a solution into place. It always, always turns into a very positive experience and and equips them for dealing with more.
00:20:32
Speaker
There are episodes of the podcast which actually deal with that specifically as well. We'll put some links in for people where people can look at. This is the issue. This is the way to resolve it. this is And you don't necessarily need the answer to the question.
00:20:48
Speaker
What you need is the process for answering the question. Yeah, I think it's good to have problems sometimes. Of course, when we have a problem and when we inside the problem, it is extremely difficult and it's hard to think straight and make right decisions.
00:21:04
Speaker
But problems make make us stronger. And ah after all those challenges I had with the business, I'm ready for more. I'm trying to grow the second business, employ more people. At the moment, it's five of us and I'm trying to build even bigger business and I'm ready to for more mistakes.
00:21:23
Speaker
I know it will happen. i know what you mean. But when you mention mistakes, you also have to remember, of course, that the person who never made a mistake never made anything. And we learn from our mistakes and we should welcome them. There's a thing about failing fast.
00:21:36
Speaker
might Try something, get it right, get it wrong, learn from the experience, improve it, move on. Yeah, it's a data, it's a feedback. Very much so. And you've got all of this now becoming quite the data expert. So you've got no excuses if it happens again, you know, no excuses at all.
00:21:53
Speaker
What you're doing, though, i think is, you know, taking a problem, turned it into a passion, created a solution from it, which actually lots of organizations could benefit from as well. but technology really does move very fast.
Regulations and Ethics in AI Development
00:22:07
Speaker
So what is the big sort of issue that you're thinking, yeah know we need to have a solution to this one before it really gets a big I was invited by university two days ago to talk about the course they designed for students.
00:22:23
Speaker
And there was a long subject about being ethnical, about using AI. I'm quite worried that we don't have a lot of regulations about when can we use AI, how can we use it.
00:22:38
Speaker
and who's got rights for it. So the the concern i I raised was, what if AI will make a mistake and advise someone or move a machine in a way that will hurt someone or make you know like a make it make it like a critical mistake?
00:22:53
Speaker
And I was thinking like, whose responsibility? Is it the developer who wrote the AI code? Or like, you know, who's behind this now? I think that the technology is going fast, but we need we need some more regulations around this area. what What do you think? As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about people who get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a car.
00:23:15
Speaker
The difference between that and people who get behind the wheel of a car and break the speed limit. Now, if someone gets behind the wheel of a car and breaks the speed limit... there are people who get really feel really guilty about it as they should, but there are also other people who will make a joke of it.
00:23:32
Speaker
You know, my car's capable of this and I've eventually got caught and, you know, I've got to pay the fine or go on the speed awareness course or or whatever it is. And, but it's it's still socially acceptable almost to do that.
00:23:46
Speaker
But you won't get people showing off about drunk driving. and that What we've done is we've made both activities illegal But one of the activities is more socially unacceptable than the other.
00:23:59
Speaker
So although people can say, oh yeah, I got caught speeding, aren't a naughty boy? You don't get people saying the same things about drunk driving because of our attitudes towards the crime is completely different.
00:24:13
Speaker
i think we need to get the legislation right so that people know what is and is not acceptable. We need to get the education right so that people know that when they're doing something with that technology, they're doing it correctly. So you have fewer breaks in the code and and the the technology doesn't go off and do its own thing.
00:24:34
Speaker
But we also need to get culturally savvy and make sure that it isn't funny, it isn't acceptable, and people won't put up with people who abuse the value that the technology can offer.
00:24:48
Speaker
Yes, so it can be abused. I totally agree. And I'm a bit just worried that companies are quite open now to give away control and implement AI in different processes and at different stages.
00:25:04
Speaker
So for example, sometimes when you call a call center in few companies, you will be now talking to AI and not to people, and you can't even tell as a customer. app But the thing is,
00:25:17
Speaker
as a company that developed an AI product, we don't have a full control over what answer is going to be served to a customer. Yes. And this is a bit of a stressful thing because as a business, you would like to be in a control and make sure that the answer is within your policy and stuff like that. And the more AI ah takes processes over from people, the more problems can occur that we never had to deal with before. We haven't also worked out how to deal with
00:25:49
Speaker
that situation where the AI answered a question and gave an answer that wasn't properly correct, or didn't check that the customer really understood the answer to the question.
00:26:01
Speaker
And so went off and did something that wasn't the right thing to do. And you're quite right. You know, we're still in the early days. It is a little bit, to a little bit like the wild west.
00:26:13
Speaker
I've really enjoyed our conversation today, I must admit, but one of the things that you have done for me is just demonstrated, although there are people like you who are doing all sorts of fantastic things with this technology and turning it into good, there we're just just still scratching the surface of the potential and scratching the surface of the problems that the potential might give us.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah, I believe we should keep people in control over AI.
Human Oversight in AI Processes
00:26:41
Speaker
So people should be like managers and check after AI all the time and always have people in the process. I don't want to live in a world ah where everything is done by AI and people are not there. You know what I mean? know precisely what you mean.
00:26:57
Speaker
And I think that is the right thing to do is to almost ask, are you AI or are you a human being? Yes, and have some sort of signature that proves it, like an e-signature that people are being transparent. I think we need this transparency. I'm with you. Thank you, Michael.
00:27:15
Speaker
It's been really very interesting.
Conclusion and Podcast Intentions
00:27:18
Speaker
you know, David, ah I've learned a lot, but unfortunately, there's only so much time available. We must do something again, hope.
00:27:27
Speaker
But for today, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time. I'm on the same page. I learned a lot. Thank Thank you very much. I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, David Patrikowski, the director of Bacona.
00:27:46
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. There's a link in the description. I must thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to David. If you're a podcaster looking for interesting guests,
00:28:00
Speaker
Or if like David, you have something very interesting to say, Matchmaker is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. The Zencastr system has, as always, been very efficient and effective to today.
00:28:14
Speaker
But if you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone and experience technical issues, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:28:25
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:28:40
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds as much as David and I have enjoyed making it. Please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:55
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think.
00:29:07
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.