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Menopause, Andropause - a conversation with mid-life coaches Claire & James Davis
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Women know about menopause, but not many men know about Andropause, but they should
Whilst it is debatable how well women understand menopause; most women do at least know something about it.
On the other hand, not many men have heard of andropause, yet it can have an equally debilitating effect on men as menopause has on women.
In this episode of the Abeceder health and wellbeing podcast Fit For My Age married mid-life coaches Claire & James Davis help host Michael Millward to understand the similarities and differences between menopause and andropause.
They explore the symptoms that both men and women will experience and how partners can support each other.
Claire and James share their knowledge of how to minimise those symptoms.
Find out more about Michael Millward and Claire & James Davis at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fit for My Age' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to Fit for My Age, the health and wellbeing podcast from Abysida. I am your host, Michael Millward, the managing director of
Introducing Midlife Coaches Claire and James Davis
00:00:18
Speaker
Abysida.
00:00:18
Speaker
Today, my guests are midlife coaches, Claire and James Davis. They're experts in successful aging. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, Fit For My Age is made on Zencaster, the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
00:00:43
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making podcasts so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysida.
00:00:57
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. Very importantly on Fit For My Age, we don't tell you what to think.
00:01:11
Speaker
but we do hope to make you think. Now, usually at this point, I would say today my guest is, but today I have for the first time on Fit For My Age, two guests.
00:01:24
Speaker
So today my guests are Claire and James Davis. As well as being married to each other, Claire and James also work together as midlife coaches, helping people achieve better levels of health and happiness in midlife.
00:01:41
Speaker
They are experts in psychology, hormones, menopause, andropause, relationships, fitness, and the whole process of successful aging. Claire and James are based in London.
00:01:54
Speaker
When my work involves traveling to London, I always arrange my travel with the Ultimate Travel Club. The reason is simple. The Ultimate Travel Club is where I and you can access trade prices on flights, hotels and holidays.
00:02:09
Speaker
You'll find a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now that I've paid the rent, it's time to make this episode of Fit for My Age. Hello, Claire. Hello. Hello, James. Hello there.
00:02:21
Speaker
Before we get into what midlife coaching is, how did you become midlife
James and Claire's Journey to Midlife Coaching
00:02:26
Speaker
coaches? That's that's a great question. I guess the short answer is my my interest, i always had an interest in human behavior. You know, why why do we behave in certain ways? So I studied psychology at university, went on to do master's in applied psychology.
00:02:39
Speaker
And although I kind of drifted away from that into corporate career, I'd always had an interest also in health and wellness. Then in 2011, I moved to Ibiza to set up a retreats company and basically wanted to ah apply some of the knowledge I had. So not just giving people exercise, great food options, but talking to about nutrition, talking to them about why their beliefs are getting them stuck, how their mindset can be getting in the way. So it's it's full transformational toolkit. Claire's journey but She was a life coach, stress management consultant, again, with both personal trainers, both got implications in nutrition, in gut health, in hormone health.
00:03:14
Speaker
So yeah as the years went by and we saw more and more people coming through our retreats, we kind of like evolved our model, did more training, more research. That's kind of like where we got to. you And the reason we focused on midlife was so many people coming through the retreats were of that age and reporting similar kind of complaints, issues that were both like physical, but also the emotional and psychological. that we felt we needed to put a resource out there to help people navigate this phase of life with with more confidence, really.
00:03:42
Speaker
The people who can go on on a retreat are the people that can afford to go on a retreat or am I making some sort of assumption? No, no, you're not actually. i think I think you're quite correct. I think there might be a little bit more disposable income perhaps at midlife.
00:03:56
Speaker
But I also think that's why we wanted to also have an online group coaching program, but also our podcast. So we actually launched our Midlife Mentors podcast early 2019.
00:04:10
Speaker
to reach more people that needed, i suppose, the passion and the knowledge and the expertise that we had and to help them, like James said, navigate midlife with more confidence because we were aware, obviously,
00:04:23
Speaker
the the retreats cost a fair amount of money, especially over in Ibiza. this You offer a very comprehensive range of services. I wonder if we might focus on comparing and and contrasting two of the major things that happen within the midlife process.
Understanding Menopause, Perimenopause, and Andropause
00:04:41
Speaker
One that happens to men, one that happens to women. And those are the menopause and the andropause. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's such an important subject. Obviously, women are going going through perimenopause and then menopause, those hormonal changes.
00:04:55
Speaker
Men can be suffering from low testosterone. And in a relationship, of course, when those changes are going on, it can create a bit of a divide if the partners aren't aware of what's happening and have open communication about it.
00:05:07
Speaker
Yeah. So the menopause is everybody must know the word, even if they don't always know exactly what it means. So what is the menopause? I think that's probably one for me, isn't it? Although James is actually a menopause practitioner, so I shouldn't really take that away from him.
00:05:25
Speaker
No, but it was one of those sorts of things. And we could say, that yeah, what is the menopause? So a woman should answer the question. But I know that there is a big debate as well about what do men actually know about menopause? But on this occasion, will we'll take you, Clarence, so if you could just briefly explain what the menopause is.
00:05:42
Speaker
I'll just ship in there actually, Michael, because um as part of the work I do is go into organisations and actually talk to men about the menopause and how they can be better menopause allies for female colleagues, but also, you know, the females in their life at home. So it is an important subject, but i will hand over to Claire to talk about perimenopause. Hijacking the menopause there for me.
00:06:04
Speaker
but and um I mean, it's basically from about the age of 35, women can start experiencing menopausal symptoms, but we call that perimenopause. So a lot of women kind of feel very, very confused right the beginning of those changes that are happening to their mind and their body. So it's not just the physical changes, it's the psychological changes.
00:06:25
Speaker
And I think that perimenopausal phase, which can last up to like 10 years, um even longer actually, can be, yeah, can be a very confusing, unsettling time because there are so many symptoms that we might be experiencing from hot flushes, to brain fog, to weight gain, to sleeplessness, to a low energy, to rage, depression. So, you know, it really is a tumultuous time for a woman because she might be having these symptoms on and off and not really know what's going on. And it's not helped by the fact that actually a lot the time when you go to the GP, they're general practitioners, they don't have
00:07:05
Speaker
like the in-depth insight that someone like James and I might have. So you go to your GP and you're told that you have depression or that you might need to exercise more.
00:07:16
Speaker
They don't actually necessarily pinpoint it to your lifestyle factors or the menopause. So that's when um you're in perimenopause. Menopause is when you haven't had a period for 12 months or more.
00:07:29
Speaker
So that's when you know you've hit menopause. And then you go into something called post-menopause, like straight away, which is around the age of, the average age is around 52. and actually you can get symptoms for a number of years after that. Thank you very much.
00:07:42
Speaker
So James, over to you. What is the andropause? So the andropause is also known as age-related testosterone decline. As women have estrogen and progesterone as their primary sex hormones, men have testosterone.
00:07:55
Speaker
that will tend to peak in our you know late adolescence, early 20s, and then it declines at a rate of one to 2% per year, which doesn't sound a lot. When you're compounding that by the time you're in your 50s, those testosterone levels could be 30 to 50% lower.
00:08:09
Speaker
So you can start to notice things like muscle loss, um slow lower it slower metabolism, weight gain around the midsection, lethargy, brain fog, low level anxiety, lowered confidence, um libido might go, you might have things like suffer with things erectile dysfunction, stuff like that.
00:08:26
Speaker
you can have a number of physical and psychological drivers. I think it's important to note, you know, they they are very separate processes, if you like, that men and women go through. But I think where the relation comes together is that they're likely to be experiencing them at a similar point in life.
00:08:41
Speaker
But one of the things that's very interesting there, it's almost like there is a a big bang type of situation with the with women, but with men, it's a very gradual process.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's right. I think, you know, there is a lot more awareness of the menopause. So, you know, if a woman is in her you know late 30s, early 40s, you start to experience irregular periods, you know hot flash moots, you'd be like probably like, okay, this could be the menopause.
00:09:07
Speaker
For men, because it's... and this gradual decline, it might just be like, oh, I feel a bit lethargic. I've got low energy. know it's my libido isn't isn't where it was. And we might confuse that with with other things like like stress.
00:09:20
Speaker
The most requested test from doctors for men is the Tidal Time test, which actually screens for a range of things, but interestingly, doesn't screen for testosterone, which is nuts.
00:09:31
Speaker
I think it can be harder to spot for men. And also there's not the awareness. And men wouldn't necessarily think, oh, could this be down to lower testosterone levels?
Changing Perceptions of Andropause and Menopause
00:09:39
Speaker
Yes. Thinking back about it, I think the menopause is treated quite seriously, whereas there's almost something quite comical. The andropause is something for comedians to tell jokes about, but they wouldn't necessarily tell jokes about the menopause.
00:09:55
Speaker
I have to completely agree with you, actually, there Michael. I think. You know, it's that whole, oh, he's having a midlife crisis. He's going to go and get the car. He's going to get the younger woman. And it's it's actually very, I think it's belittled. And so there's enough shame for men anyway. They tend to we know they tend to seek less help than than us women anyway. their Their social networks actually get smaller as they like age. Us women tend to talk to each other. We have ah conversations about it. And like you said, out there in um the public,
00:10:26
Speaker
menopause is being talked about all the time. And so i do feel like this is a subject, especially we feel so passionate. As a woman, I feel incredibly passionate about the the stuff that James does around the angiopause, because the biggest cohort of suicide is midlife men. You know, there's more midlife men committing suicide in the UK than any other age group. It's a really serious thing. And they're not seeking the help that they need.
00:10:51
Speaker
Even having these conversations, changing the narrative a little bit, we hope that it starts helping them open up a little. It's about making sure that people can understand and have they enough information to be able to then decide for themselves what it is that they want to do about it.
00:11:06
Speaker
suppose if you are in a relationship, yeah I'm wondering whether partners, both men and women, might notice things about each other, about this process, or before we notice it ourselves.
00:11:18
Speaker
Well, we I have um a very personal experience of this, Michael, because I think James... but bless him was noticing a few years ago that there were changes to my mood, there were changes to my energy levels, and my but my my physicality was changing slightly. and not that he pointed that out, I must say. But...
00:11:39
Speaker
Ever the gentleman. because Because there was a lot of rage as well. So he definitely didn't want to point that out. let's ah But yeah, I definitely think there is a part of if you're in in a relationship in a couple where that person will probably notice more so your mood changes, perhaps your lack of ability to sleep, your brain fog. I mean, I became incredibly clumsy. so there's definitely an argument that that person will start noticing some differences.
00:12:10
Speaker
And actually, I have to say, I noticed some differences in James too, but we're incredibly blessed that even though that was happening to us, you know, we could have that communication between us and go, actually, I think it might be your hormones.
00:12:24
Speaker
I think there's some stuff going on for you right now. And even that awareness and that understanding and that compassion towards each other, really helps actually with the actual symptoms. nice Yeah, I would just add to that, that um I do think men are probably more likely to notice menopausal symptoms because there's much more awareness of it.
00:12:42
Speaker
And even as men, you know, if we're of a certain age, we probably remember our mothers going through the change. So you in those days, it was thing not to be talked about, but you know, kind of like oh, must be going through the change. So even if we don't know about the menopause, we can we do know that it exists, it's something there and it could the behaviour could be due to that.
Positive Changes and Relationships in Aging
00:13:00
Speaker
With men, they won't even know what's happening themselves. So the woman might just think, oh, you know, Dave seems a bit withdrawn, bit lethargic, or we never want to do anything anymore. Our intimacy's dropped off a bit. I wonder what's wrong.
00:13:13
Speaker
It won't actually be such a logical leap that, oh, I wonder if there's a hormonal thing going on here. can't tell you, Michael, how many women I have say to me that I talk to this about with regards to andropause.
00:13:24
Speaker
they are They look so relieved. They're like, oh my goodness. I thought I was just imagining it. I thought it was just me going through this, but I've really noticed, like James said, like um withdrawing, depression. lethargy not wanting to do anything loss of confidence like a sex drive I thought it was just me imagining it I'm so relieved that I can at least I suppose put a label on it and then open up those lines of communication yes yeah and when you talk about people talking about it I saw a clip of a red carpet type interview with Brad Pitt I am both the same age and the same height as Brad Pitt similarities end there yeah
00:14:07
Speaker
But he's walking along the red carpet and the journalist says to him, you know, Brad, Brad, you know, you've got a fantastic head of hair and we're the same age. I've got virtually none. So what is your secret? Brad pitt says, oh, it's a, it swings and roundabouts type of thing.
00:14:23
Speaker
You know, it's a long time since I've had a night when I've, I've happened have to wake up and go to the bathroom. And just the mere fact that an A-list star has in that casual moment has opened up about and something that normalizes,
00:14:37
Speaker
in lots of ways, the sorts of things that stops, it contributes to stopping it being something that is a figure of fun. Yeah, definitely. I will put a link to the video clip on YouTube in there and the description so that other people can see it as well.
00:14:53
Speaker
I get exactly what you're saying about those women because there is this huge sense of feeling of there being something wrong with you because you're just getting older. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think sharing in this, this is why...
00:15:07
Speaker
It is, you know, we do try and put ah but as positive a spin on it as possible because I do think there is so much negativity around aging, so much. But actually, it really is an opportunity to really grow into ourselves, to do all the things that we've been wanting to do but have been putting off because we've had other priorities. it can't It can be and should be a very positive time of our lives. So we don't always want to talk about the menopause and the andropause in a negative light. And actually, we don't.
00:15:36
Speaker
But so ah do think that actually, if we can have these conversations, it can bring you closer together with your partner, actually, because you're having this shared experience. And that that's been my experience when I've spoken to women is that they have been able to go home to their partners and be like, actually, i have more compassion for you right now because I didn't understand this before, but I'm going through my hormonal changes.
00:16:00
Speaker
I'm finding it really difficult. Now I understand that you are the way you are at the moment because you're going through some hormonal changes. It really can bring people closer together. I hope so. But I'm going to pick up on something that you said there because you said you're going through changes at the moment.
00:16:16
Speaker
And that makes me think that like there is an end point to the change process. There is. I can see how the end point happens for a woman, but yeah I'm going to ask you to explain how that is for a woman as well. But also I find it more difficult to see the end point for a man. And well, what sort of things give us the signs that, okay, we've reached the point where the the bad side of the process is over.
00:16:42
Speaker
And what is it that we can do to make the process easier?
Managing Andropause: Strategies and Insights
00:16:48
Speaker
So um for men, and there are a lot of things we can be doing, which is which is the great news, right? The first is actually understanding what's happening to us, understanding that that testosterone is in decline that it will be having an effect on us other hormones and neurotransmitters are changing as well you know that we call this the portfolio effect and they they have a ah range of physiological and psychological effects on the body but what we can do is actually take the decision to to own that and go right okay what can i do about it
00:17:15
Speaker
So we can increase our testosterone levels naturally by doing things like minimizing sugar in our diet, cutting back on alcohol, cutting back on processed foods, you know things that will interrupt our hormone pathways.
00:17:26
Speaker
We can exercise in certain ways. So we have to be careful to keep stress under control. So we don't wanna do like long, long sessions or lots of endurance work, but short bursts of intense activity like HIIT are really great for um raising testosterone as is yeah resistance training, lifting weights. Again, that will give us a lift in testosterone. so then I think it's really important to know that it's not just a physical process, it it's psychological.
00:17:49
Speaker
So making sure that we're working out our minds as well, right? So that we're keeping this positivity, doing things like making sure that we're grounding ourselves with gratitude, that we're looking ahead. We're thinking about what are my goals going forward and how am I going to achieve those?
00:18:03
Speaker
And addressing all the all the factors that play into that. Because once we have... a plan, a purpose, vision, we're going to feel lot happier in life executing and moving towards that, as opposed to, I guess, flipping other way and just going, oh, you know, this is all happening to me. There's nothing I can do. Isn't it terrible? Yeah. I would add that there is um something called the happiness curve. And I really urge anyone to go and read this book. We actually had, I'm terrible. can't remember that shit.
00:18:30
Speaker
And it's very difficult to define what happiness is, right? But we dip in happiness. And then we come out of that and the the research, it's and it's across the board, across um very many different cultures. And actually looks like from the happiness curve that we start, men and women start coming out of that around mid-50s. 44 is peak unhappiness in the Western world, I think. Yes.
00:18:52
Speaker
So it it is a positive look that actually for men and women, this does end. that's That's very good to know. you may It's like the peak unhappiness is around about age 44.
00:19:05
Speaker
And I'm thinking with my ah HR professionals hat on, I'm thinking like, That's at the point where people are thinking about, well, I might actually be reaching the the pinnacle of my career.
00:19:16
Speaker
What have I done? What haven't I done? What am going to try and do again? All the pressures of of life are probably at their peak as well at that sort of age.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yes, and um that's that's exactly it And I think that's why we need to support midlifers. Even more because we're actually called generation squeezed.
00:19:37
Speaker
You know, we have pressures from every angle. We might have aging parents, we might have shitty children, they might be empty nesters, there's financial pressures, there's career pressures still, it really is a difficult time. And then you throw in hormonal changes. This is why people need the support.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yes. And I'm wondering, with my ah HR professionals hat on again, Can so like a change of job, a change of career, doing spending your life differently, can that help to improve the aging process, improve the menopause and andropause stage because it removes that stress?
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great, great question. Claire's jumping up and down to answer, but I'll do Kenneth's first. um I think it's what we don't realize are that our values change over time and it's okay for them to change. So, you know, we might we might set off in our career and in our 20s with a particular set of values and we go, go, go, right? Life just takes us and were and suddenly we're in our 40s or our 50s and we're like, oh, ah do i do I even want to be doing this thing anymore? Has it got me what I wanted in terms of the growth I want internally or how I'm feeling about my life. So it's totally fine to recognise that over time, our values change, the things we want from life change, having that space and time to evaluate that companies can do work around are we providing I'll use the word fulfilment for our employees?
00:21:04
Speaker
Are they feeling fulfilled in their roles and those roles are playing to their values or not? And then for the individual, it's like, well, is my current role supporting me in my values and sense of purpose? Or do I want to do a side hustle that will do that? do I want to change career completely? But no question, you know, realigning our values for who and where we want to go is is a really powerful tool we can use.
00:21:27
Speaker
Brilliant.
Post-Menopause Empowerment for Women
00:21:28
Speaker
What tends to happen is that women become quite empowered, even though we're going through such difficult changes our hormones, we tend to become more creative. So I often say about there's a positive side to the menopause. And sometimes I see eyes rolled.
00:21:44
Speaker
But actually, we become more creative, we stand in our power more, ah we set stronger boundaries. There's a real sense of really coming into yourself, actually, for women at midlife. And that's where we do look at changing careers. And we're a bit more open to that, I would say.
00:22:01
Speaker
Men tend to have a little bit more anxiety around that because they might see themselves as the provider They very definitely completely define themselves by the work that they do.
00:22:13
Speaker
And so i think the stress that they might feel at midlife is, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm what do I want for the rest of my career here? Am I going to be able to fulfill that?
00:22:25
Speaker
Am I going to be on the dump heap um when I when I reach retirement age? Like because that's their identity. um It's very, very securely mixed up with their work.
00:22:38
Speaker
Men tend to isolate themselves actually even more at midlife. And when they do retire, again, that's another problematic time because a lot of their friendships might have been at work. And I think they find it harder um at that stage of their life to really redefine who they are and what they want.
00:22:55
Speaker
but When you say that women find it easier to change, I may be completely wrong, but I suspect not having the pressure of the reproductive cycle of the monthly menstruation and that has gone. yeah That then means that a woman no longer has to still be thinking about motherhood and can actually then focus on excelling as herself. Mm-hmm.
Men's Identity and Aging Challenges
00:23:19
Speaker
right yeah that may be a contentious thing to say but it's the first thing that came to my mind i've no longer got this hormonal pressure i can now focus on being myself but what you've just sort of explained there is that actually the drop in the hormones within a man the testosterone hormones it's almost it's it's almost like it it feels for the way in which it's described as as the exact opposite you remove i I am the provider. i am the person who's who's got to make sure that everybody's safe, everybody's fed, everybody's got all this money.
00:23:52
Speaker
And at that sort of age, children would be starting to go off and be more independent. They don't need this. And you get left in a in a vacuum. Whereas the woman is sort of thinking, I could do all sorts of things.
00:24:06
Speaker
And the man is seeing their role contract. yeah Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely some truths in that. you know as As Claire said, i think as men, we tend to define ourselves in terms of our our job role, and that can be challenging. you know We know as we as we get older, redundancy can loom in a lot of organisations, so we might question our value. A lot a lot of older executives ah kind of have anxiety around you know younger workforce coming in, new technology coming in, kind of that, oh, will I be replaced? So There's definitely something there. And if you if you compound that with the hormonal changes, and then also, as as we said, all the research shows women are much better about talking about their problems and seeking help for them.
00:24:45
Speaker
whereas Whereas men will tend to internalize which over time, isn't such a helpful strategy. It's self-destructive,
Conclusion and Future Topics
00:24:52
Speaker
isn't it? Yeah. One of the aims of Fit For My Age is not to tell people what to think, but to make them think.
00:24:59
Speaker
You have to today, James and Claire, made me think, and they have so many questions but time has unfortunately caught up with us. So I'm probably going to be asking you to come back on and in another episode of Fit For My Age, we can explore more of these issues in a little bit more detail. But I am certainly fascinated by this whole relationship between work and hormones. And there is something that we need to unpick around about that. So I'm hoping that you will agree to come back and and discuss that in more detail.
00:25:35
Speaker
We would love love to. And we agree. There's definitely a lot to unpick around the hormones and the and the workforce and the aging workforce for sure. So we're very passionate about that. Yeah, we will arrange that. So there is something very much a reason for people to subscribe so they don't miss out on that.
00:25:51
Speaker
right But for the moment, I am Michael Millward. the Managing Director of Abucida. And in this episode of Fit for My Age, I have had an extremely interesting conversation with Claire and James Davis, experts in midlife health and well-being.
00:26:09
Speaker
Now, if people want to contact you and find out more information about the work that you do, what's the website that they should go to? So where they can find us at themidlifementors.com. That's all one word, themidlifementors.com.
00:26:24
Speaker
and They can, of course, listen to our podcast, The Midlife Mentors, or find us on socials or at midlifementors.com. Yeah, we'll put all of those links in the description. Also in the description, you'll find a link to abecida.co.uk where there'll be even more information as well.
00:26:40
Speaker
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00:27:04
Speaker
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00:27:32
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced phlebotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a UKAS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:27:49
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes anytime via a secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:28:02
Speaker
So much information in the description. It is well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of Fit for My Age, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:28:15
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abysseedah is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:28:28
Speaker
So, a big thank you to Claire and James. And until the next episode of Fit For My Age, a big thank you to you for listening and goodbye.