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Sleep Hygiene a conversation with Manohar Grandhi
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Freedom from Insomnia. meet the author of "My Sleepless Nights: A Story of Victory over Insomnia"
Manohar Grandhi is a sleep coach who helps IT professionals to sleep well and stay on top of their game.
In this episode of the Abeceder health and well-being podcast Fit For My Age, Manohar describes to host Michael Millward the scale of his own sleep challenges and his attempts to address challenges.
Manohar explains why many of the solutions provided modern medicine do not work and how he found a more holistic approach.
He describes how resolving his problems with insomnia and sleeplessness inspired him to change his career and help other people to do the same.
Find out more about Michael Millward and Manohar Grandhi at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Buy My Sleepless Nights: A Story of Victory over Insomnia on Amazon
Proactive Positive Ageing.
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A Personal Wellness Hub gives access to easy-to-understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes.
Visit York Test and use this discount code AGE25.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fit For My Age' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to Fit For My Age, the health and wellbeing podcast from Abysida. I'm your host, Michael Millwood, the managing director of Abysida.
Interview with Sleep Expert Manahar Gandhi
00:00:18
Speaker
Today, my guest is Manahar Gandhi. We are going to be talking about the importance of sleep and how to manage sleep. So please stay awake for the next half an hour.
00:00:29
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, fit for my age is made on Zencastr, the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
00:00:43
Speaker
Zencastr really does make making podcasts so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using zencastr visit Zencaster, visit zencaster.com and use my offer code, Abbasida.
00:00:56
Speaker
All the details are in the description. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:10
Speaker
Very importantly, on Fit For My Age, we don't tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. to Today, my guest, who I met on matchmaker.fm, is Manaha Gandhi.
00:01:24
Speaker
Manaha is a sleep expert who is based in India. India is a place that I've never visited. If I do go, i will make sure to make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because at the Ultimate Travel Club, I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, and holidays, and so many other travel-related purchases.
00:01:45
Speaker
There is a link and a discount code in the description. Now that I have paid the rent, it is time to make this episode of Fit for My Age.
Manahar's Personal Sleep Struggles
00:01:54
Speaker
Hello, Manaha. Hi, Michael.
00:01:55
Speaker
I hope you're well. Yeah, I'm doing really good. Good, good. Please, could we start this conversation about sleep by understanding how you came to have to learn about the sleep habits and what's your backstory as such?
00:02:08
Speaker
Actually, Michael, so I am working in the software industry since the last, I would say, 16 years and I'm still working in the software industry. I would say like I had this issue of having bad night's sleep right from my teenage years. My mom also has this. So I have kind of inherited her sleeping patterns, I would say.
00:02:31
Speaker
So i I almost lived more than 10 years and um with an on and off sleep kind of a thing. But what happened in ending part, exactly the November, December part of 2018 was when my sleep started getting disturbed because of multiple issues. So there were some personal issues that were going on, some professional issues.
00:02:53
Speaker
And a mix of all these things caused me to not go to sleep. So desperate, so started searching on every possible things that I could find. But the more I started searching, the more I tried something, the more they didn't work, the more desperate I was getting. And and that is that is how I started going in an insomnia loop, I would say.
00:03:17
Speaker
You've had long-term problems with sleeping and those reached a peak where it's like you've got to do something about it. And then you start researching it and looking into why people don't sleep, why some people do sleep as well, I suppose, and what's the difference between good and bad sleep.
00:03:35
Speaker
Then coming up with a solution and that solution works for you. Yes, as they often say, the mess in your life becomes the message that you want to give to others. The mess in your life, I suppose, can either destroy you or can be the message that you want to share with other people, give you purpose. And there's no bigger catalyst or driver for change or growing and developing knowledge than having to solve a problem.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you on that. Tell us about all of this research that you've done, and then we'll talk about the conclusions that you drew. Yeah, yeah. So I started with Google searching, whatever I could find on the Google blogs, then went to YouTube.
00:04:15
Speaker
There are many click bits on YouTube which promise saying, like, do this thing, press your point some point here and there, and you'll be able to sleep in one one minute and all those things.
00:04:27
Speaker
And then I even... tried a couple of things one is called as acupuncture you are getting pricked with needles and they balance the energy is what they say but then the problem is i was expecting something called as instant result so that is the biggest problem so let's say that i started breath meditation and i felt good but then the immediate thing i wanted was i wanted sleep But because my brain was habituated to living in a phase of worry, right?
00:05:02
Speaker
So that is when I was going in a vicious circle wherein like the more I put the expectation that, okay, this method is going to work, it always backfired. So that is the pressure that I put.
00:05:15
Speaker
What you mean then is that you get very enthusiastic about this idea is, I don't want to really use the word cure. If I do this, I will be able to sleep.
00:05:27
Speaker
The expectation and the worry about it not working is actually going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy in many ways. The stress of, will this work, won't this work, will this work, won't this work? Yes. Actually makes it more difficult for you to sleep. So you're building in reasons almost that make it more difficult to sleep.
00:05:46
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, you really summed it up very beautifully. That is what was happening.
Reframing Insomnia with Psychological Insights
00:05:53
Speaker
Coming to the way I got over this is, right I was desperate to but fix this ASAP. I saw a psychologist and assumed that he would ah give me a sleeping pill.
00:06:07
Speaker
So I went there, I went to his office and I started sharing that this is my problem. i And I was expecting that he would, just like any doctor visit, rate go and the diagnosis and then get some fun of his sleeping. But then he started questioning me back, saying that, why why are you not able to sleep?
00:06:29
Speaker
So what is your pattern when you're going to sleep? What is something, what was something, an incomplete thing or an incomplete thing or some dissatisfaction in my life? And those kinds of things started, he started questioning.
00:06:45
Speaker
The conversation was more on what happened to you rather than what's wrong with you. So that's the biggest difference that happened. So not being able to sleep. is not something that's wrong with you, but it's a symptom of something that else that has happened to you in your life. So insomnia is in itself not an illness or a condition, consequence of something else.
00:07:08
Speaker
And you have to deal with the something else in order to then deal with the insomnia. It's very interesting. you're with this psychologist and he's investigating what has happened to you, yeah which ah could be the cause of yeah you having sleeping problems.
Creating Effective Sleep Habits and Routines
00:07:25
Speaker
So without going into any anything that's too personal, click us on to the next stage of the story, please. Then what happened was, to a certain extent, these conversations were helping me because I was getting out of things that are staying in my head.
00:07:41
Speaker
But then still I was desperate. He recommended me to a psychiatrist who diagnosed, based on the symptoms, he diagnosed that I was on and anxiety. And then he was prescribed me anti-anxiety pills.
00:07:55
Speaker
But then the good thing that happened while during these conversations was he suggested me to take up the practice of meditation. I did take up the practice of breath meditation, but I was expecting them to give instant results.
00:08:11
Speaker
Then I hopped from breath meditation to chanting meditation to heartfulness meditation. So I kept just hopping from one form to the other. But then after the visit to the psychiatrist who prescribed me is the sleep anti-anxiety pills, he also told me like I should be in touch with my psychologist.
00:08:30
Speaker
And what he suggested me is just stick with a form of relaxation, right? That's easy for you to do. And then you will be able to ah do it much better over a period of time.
00:08:45
Speaker
So that is when what I did was before going to sleep, what I did was I just... ah put a five minutes of guided meditation. So I listened to those guided meditation and then went to sleep.
00:08:57
Speaker
So it's not that ah just because I listened to those guided meditations, I was ah immediately able to sleep, but I stuck with that pattern. So after one week, what I did was from the five minutes, I went to the eight minute meditation. Then I went to the 12 minutes of meditation.
00:09:12
Speaker
And in a period of one month, I was made a habit that 20 minutes before going to sleep was a time of meditation. What this basically did is it primed my mind to say that it's time to relax.
00:09:26
Speaker
So everything that's there in the in my not um not complete list, everything else can wait. And that is when i just lived in the present moment right here, right now.
00:09:38
Speaker
And that is when the anxiety, the worry, whether I'll sleep or not started just going. And that is when I was able to sleep much better. What I suppose a lot of people do is just say, oh, it's bedtime, I'm going to bed and expect that they'll get into bed and fall asleep.
00:09:57
Speaker
And you know some people can put their head on the pillow and they're out like a light. But for an awful lot more people, it doesn't happen like that. And what you've discovered as a result of of this, the research and the communication with the psychologist and the psychiatrist, is that it's important to prepare your body for sleep, to actually sort of say, now we're slowing down, we're getting ready, we're removing all of the stress and the strains, the worries of the day from our brains, because we're going to live in the moment and now is the time for sleep so we start that relaxation process do you need to be in bed to start that relaxation process or can it can you do it anywhere
00:10:38
Speaker
No, actually, in my case, I was doing it not in the bed. i was doing it away from the bed. And then once I have completed that, so I i was coming to the bed.
00:10:51
Speaker
So this actually, this practice which I did, right, it more or less comes with the Pavlovian experiment, which he did. In the early nineteen hundreds And what basically Pavlov did is called a social conditioning experiment with with dogs. So what he did was before giving food to the dogs, right?
00:11:09
Speaker
He just rang a bell initially and then gave a food. Initially, nothing much happened. But after two weeks, just the ringing of the sound of the bell, the dogs really started salivating because they understood that after the ringing of the sound of the bell, the food is going to come.
00:11:27
Speaker
So that is how the brains got primed to ah doing something. So this is exactly what I would say i was doing before going to bed, listening to those guided meditations, right? And then going to bed, right?
00:11:42
Speaker
Training my brain and my body to say that it's time to sleep. Yeah. Listening to you there, I'm reminded of a dog that once had who, when it came from the breeder, the breeder had rung a bell to tell the puppies to come in to get fed.
00:11:55
Speaker
And when ah the church clock in our village rang every 15 minutes, these dogs were expected to be fed every 15 minutes for the first week that they were with us. But it's it sort of like brings home that we can, if we work out a routine, a system, call it what you will, then we can actually train our bodies to learn how to sleep and do it on the expectation that if when this process starts, it be followed by this experience, this activity.
00:12:27
Speaker
It can be any type of activity, but And it's interesting as well that you do this away from bed. One of the things that I have found out myself is that if you go to bed and you're not feeling tired, you haven't gone through this sort of preparation process and you're in bed,
00:12:45
Speaker
and you're not asleep, if that happens often enough, your body can stop recognizing bed as a place where you sleep. It's a place where you read a book. It's a place where you listen to the radio. It's a place where you watch television.
00:13:00
Speaker
You can improve your sleep if you reserve bed for sleep rather than watching a TV, reading a book, having a drink. And it's exactly what you're saying. And I understand that now much more clearly because of what you've explained in terms of these Pavlov's dogs experiment. Our bodies get used to different activities in different environments and as a result of different stimulants. So they ring the bell, the dogs expect to get fed, do the meditation, you expect to be sleeping.
00:13:31
Speaker
And you you wouldn't do the meditation and then go for a run. You do the meditation and then go to sleep, go to bed. It's really interesting.
Improving Sleep Environment
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, so ah just just on these lines which you were talking about, Michael, the other culprit is definitely our mobile phones. that i'm I'm equally guilty of using it as much as i can. or Don't bring that up. I am even more guilty than you, believe me. So so what I've done, that has been helping me a lot is I've, so the minute of like I say like it's time to bed, right? I take my phone away from my bedroom and I put it in my living room and then I don't touch it till ah the next morning I wake up.
00:14:19
Speaker
and that is something that helps me yeah it's again so creating the right environment for sleep okay not assuming that just because you've decided to go to bed that you will go to sleep especially if you then carry on doing things which aren't associated with sleep our mind might want to do something but our brain isn't equipped or isn't in the right space in order to do what we want what our mind wants to do and i'm talking Totally un-technically there, completely, but the mind and the brain are two different things.
00:14:53
Speaker
But if our mind makes a decision to do something, what you're saying is your body won't be able to do what your mind wants to do unless your brain and your body create the right type of environment, the right type of conditions to successfully do what your mind has said that it wants to do.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah. This thing to you, sort of brings home an awful lot of the issues that other people will have with being able to create a good night's sleep. And then one of the other things is that I've noticed is that put me in front of a television and I will fall asleep.
00:15:25
Speaker
I suppose that becomes a habit based on you sit down to watch television when you're tired, you're actually physically tired, and your body says, we're going to fall asleep. And your brain says, it's time to fall asleep, regardless of what is on the screen. Yeah.
00:15:40
Speaker
because It takes over. But it's great. Did you find anything about the role of food in sleep? As such as the role of food, I'm a not a nutritionist or someone, and an expert in when it comes to ah food.
00:15:54
Speaker
But what I have, what has helped me a lot compared to the 2018 days is, so when it when it was early time, I used to have my dinner, it's like close to 8.30, 9.30.
00:16:08
Speaker
kind of a thing but then after this uh period wherein i was struggling what i have changed over the last few years is i have started having my dinner at 6 to 6 30 in between the 6 to 6 30 and then i go to sleep at 9 9 30 or 10 maybe so what i'm actually doing is i'm giving my body the time to force my food to digest because Actually, digestion is one of the most energy consuming process because though we think there is nothing much we have the food, but the food gets broken into multiple things. And then there are so many organs and yeah the body is a fascinating machine altogether.
00:16:56
Speaker
So all I'm really doing is giving my body the time for food to digest. So that actually helps a lot. And as per the Ayurveda, so it's an ancient science of India.
00:17:09
Speaker
And what Ayurveda suggests is there is fire so in our body as long as sun is there. Once the sun sets, right, the fire is switched off.
00:17:20
Speaker
right So once the fire is switched off, ah the digestion system needs a lot of energy to convert the food we take into energy. So that is the reason why Ayurveda actually recommends you to have your dinner before sunset. I know it's not going to be very easy, but ah what I have ah just done is shifted my dinner time to 6 to 6.30 and give ample time for my food body to digest the food.
00:17:48
Speaker
It's a good idea. This Indian science would suggest it's a good idea to eat whilst the sun is up because that's when you have the fire in your body because of the heat from the sun. Digesting the food is easier when the sun is up rather than after it's gone down.
00:18:04
Speaker
that is that That makes an awful lot of sense. That is so logical, and I'm a big fan of logic, but that makes so much sense that don't eat and then go to bed or don't eat in bed, but eat and give yourself, you give your body an opportunity to actually digest the food that you've eaten before.
00:18:24
Speaker
You then want your body to switch off and go to sleep. When your body sleeps, it then wants to do other things like it built grows and repairs. On the subject of food as well, are there any foods that you should avoid in that last meal of the day?
00:18:38
Speaker
Anything that's acidic, right? So anything that has a lot of spices and all, right? So that is something that should be avoided because anything that's acidic needs some more extra energy, energy,
Tailoring Sleep Solutions to Individual Needs
00:18:52
Speaker
for digestion that is what i know having said that it's completely subjective because there are i know people who can have meal um which is of this ah kind and still a be able to sleep ah so like you rightly said right there are people who just hit their head on the pillow and then they are off in a flash right so that's it's not going to be a hundred percent universal thing is what i feel ah But ah I feel anything that has acidic and of course, anything that's processed ah also ah needs a lot of effort for the body to digest. As it said, like ah you have your breakfast like a prince and lunch like a king and dinner like a beggar.
00:19:41
Speaker
So as it said, right, so have something that's light so that your body can digest. And then there is nothing interrupting your body while you're going to sleep is what I would say.
00:19:53
Speaker
Again, that makes an awful lot of sense. And it's also important, i think, to remember that each individual person is individual and no one solution will work for every everyone.
00:20:04
Speaker
It is a case of working out, like you said, what it is that has happened to you, which has created the lack of sleep and then working out how to better manage sleep the experience to understand it, to deal with it, and then understand how to deal with the food and the ah the meditation.
00:20:24
Speaker
it's ah It's a big holistic project, I suspect, isn't it? Yeah. if Just because you've learned all about how sleep works for you doesn't necessarily mean to say that you've said goodbye to a sleepless night or a bad sleep.
00:20:39
Speaker
Is it? They can still happen. Correct. Right. suppose accepting that not every night is a great night's sleep is also important. And suppose you've got to learn how to manage those times, haven't you? Correct.
00:20:51
Speaker
Correct. 100%. hundred percent How do you manage the the bad night's sleep? So how do I manage the bad night's sleep? Like you rightly said, of course there will be bad night's sleep.
00:21:04
Speaker
I would say that's the part and the beauty of being a human because we are not machines. We are constant things as constant inputs and constant outputs.
00:21:16
Speaker
So I would say like it would if possible, like I do have a nap in the afternoon, if that is that is something that permits.
00:21:28
Speaker
But if that doesn't work out, ah something that has been helping me is the practice of affirmations, which is two words that I keep telling myself that i'm I'm relaxed. ah So I keep affirming that I'm relaxed. I'm relaxed.
00:21:46
Speaker
And I don't want to make this a but ah so a big issue. So I keep just I just repeat this statement like I'm relaxed for a period of 10 times. And sometimes I do it and Yeah, it's not that i don't I don't feel bad or something, but it's because I understand that I shouldn't get desperate and let the things be as it is.
00:22:08
Speaker
And I just try to come back to the present moment. And that's how I go through my day. so if you're having a difficulty sleeping if you tell yourself that you are relaxed you are relaxing that's bit like a meditation you are saying to yourself the words that you want your brain to believe so that your body knows that it has permission to sleep i've learned quite a lot this has been very interesting manaha it's been really really interesting to you know You've built from your own personal lived experience, you've done your research, you've gone through all the various different processes and you've come up with ah but a ah logical, sensible solution to your own problems, which actually, like you said, your mess becomes your message. And you know I have to ask, what what comes next for you?
From Personal Struggles to Helping Others
00:22:58
Speaker
What's happening next in this? Is this just a project or is this something that's become a ah passion? Yeah, so this is something of a passion. And yeah, so I do help people who are struggling with this.
00:23:14
Speaker
Because for the simple reason, I believe you should be taking help because Einstein said this very beautifully. He said, you cannot solve the problem with the same mind that created it.
00:23:26
Speaker
Right. So if you just take stick with yourself, right, you will never be able to get over it. And sometimes I feel it's just staying in your head. The more you stay in your head, as Tony Robbins says, if you stay in your head, you're dead.
00:23:41
Speaker
Right. So if you just dump it out, right, so that helps a lot. And yeah the other part I've seen, ah Michael, is it's not that people don't know what to do.
00:23:54
Speaker
But the problem is it's because, i see, for example, I can just keep going on with my life because and no one will question me. Right. But let's say that tomorrow I say like tomorrow I'm going for a gym and I commit to you.
00:24:09
Speaker
And let's say that you go you go to to the gym and I'm not there. So I have to apologize because or i have to say that i for some reason I'm not going to the gym. So it's a kind of a social behavior wherein you're not you don't um sidetrack yourself. So but whereas let's say that I just ah tell to myself that tomorrow I'm going to the gym. Right.
00:24:31
Speaker
and And if I don't go, it doesn't matter to me. There's no big deal. But when I commit to you, It becomes a big deal because it's it's not comfortable to not say, to not stick to your words when you commit to that. So that is that is what it happens when you are accountable to someone else, right?
00:24:51
Speaker
You keep doing those micro habits or I would say, as James Clear says, atomic habits. Those micro habits really build up. Once you are consistent with those micro habits, this becomes your new pattern.
00:25:05
Speaker
And your old pattern is is completely removed, is what I would say. Yeah, great stuff. Really very interesting, Manaha. Thank you very much for your time today. ah like yeah I've learned a lot.
00:25:17
Speaker
Thank you very much. yeah Thank you, Michael, for having me been a pleasure. Thank you.
Episode Conclusion and Resources
00:25:22
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasidha. And in this episode of Fit for My Age, I have been having a conversation with Amanaha Grandi, a sleep expert.
00:25:33
Speaker
You can find more information about both of us at abasida.co.uk. If you are listening to Fit for My Age on your smartphone, You may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data, so listening on 3.0 means that you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:25:51
Speaker
There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code. At Fit for My Age, our aim is proactive positive aging.
00:26:05
Speaker
Knowing the risks early is an important part of maintaining good health. That is why we recommend the annual health test from York Test. York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers including cholesterol, diabetes, vitamin D, vitamin B12, liver function, iron deficiency, inflammation and a full blood count.
00:26:27
Speaker
The annual health test is conducted by an experienced lobotomist who will complete a full blood draw at your home or workplace. Hospital standard tests are carried out in a yeah UKAS accredited and CQC compliant laboratory.
00:26:41
Speaker
You can access your easy to understand results and guidance to help you make effective lifestyle changes via your secure personal wellness hub account. There is a link and a discount code in the description.
00:26:53
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of Fit For My Age, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe.
00:27:08
Speaker
Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abusida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of Fit For My Age, thank you for listening and goodbye.