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Internal Family Systems - an explanatory conversation with Ursula Lentine
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The key to a fulfilling life is understanding your internal family system, Ursula Lentine explains why
Ursula Lentine uses Internal Family Systems (IFS), which were developed by Richard Schwartz, to help successful people to build a deeper understanding of their lives.
In this episode of the Abeceder health and well-being podcast Fit For My Age, Ursula explains to host Michael Millward what Internal Family Systems are, and how they can be used by individuals to build a deep understanding of who they are, and how they became that person.
Their conversation covers
- ·The impact of nature and nurture on IFS
- The structuring of memories
- Role of parents and siblings in creating IFS
- How to use your IFS
- And much more…
Find out more about Ursula and Michael Millward at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction to Fit for My Age and Ursula Lentini
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to Fit for My Age, the health and well-being podcast from Abysida. I'm your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysida.
What are Internal Family Systems?
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, I'm going to be speaking to Ursula Lentini about internal family system. We all have one. We might not know it, but we all have an internal family system.
Podcast Engagement & Sponsor Promotion
00:00:33
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, Fit for My Age is made on Zencaster because Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you make your podcast in one place and distribute it to all of the major platforms. Zencaster really does make making podcasts so easy.
00:00:54
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abbasida. Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencast is for making podcasts, we should make one.
00:01:10
Speaker
One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. And probably also good enough to share with your family, friends and work colleagues as
Ursula Lentini's Background in Spirituality
00:01:21
Speaker
well.
00:01:21
Speaker
Very importantly, on Fit For My Age, we will not be telling you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Today, my guest is Ursula Lentini. Ursula is based in Atlanta, Georgia in the United States.
00:01:38
Speaker
I have never been, but if I ever do get the chance to go, I'll be making my arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because the Ultimate Travel Club is where I get trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays,
00:01:51
Speaker
all sorts of travel related purchases. You can as well by using the link in the description. It has a built in discount. Now that I've paid some bills, it is time to make this episode of fit for my age and say hello to Ursula. Hello, Ursula.
00:02:08
Speaker
Michael, what a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast. Thank you very much for saying that. I'm looking forward to a very interesting conversation about these internal family systems. But before we get into that, please could we start with a little bit of the the backstory of
Understanding Subconscious Behaviors
00:02:26
Speaker
you? how did How did you get to be doing what you do now for a living? Well, I think it's just my way. I tried to be a normal person for many years. But in the background, I've always studied spirituality and metaphysics, and I've always asked why
00:02:45
Speaker
Why do people behave that way Why do I feel this way? why is the world this way? in my quest to answer why, I've come upon many discoveries, and then I've come to an understanding of my own way and my ways to help other people through understanding themselves and through healing the subconscious.
00:03:06
Speaker
because that's what's really running the show.
Authenticity and Happiness in Modern Life
00:03:09
Speaker
90% of our actions and reactions are subconscious. are That's why willpower doesn't work. We get frustrated and then we get mad that our willpower doesn't work. Of course it doesn't work. It's it's not going to ever work.
00:03:23
Speaker
So when we can be humble and and turn into our heart and ask, you know, what's the matter? What's going on here? Then we can love ourselves and then we don't have to beat ourselves up so much. So That's what I do. I help people become their best friend instead of their worst enemy.
Exploring Internal Family Systems Dynamics
00:03:41
Speaker
It's an interesting way to put it. And listening to you there, i was thinking, in the 21st century, we are becoming increasingly aware that in in history, the rule has been to conform, to be like everyone else.
00:03:56
Speaker
Because that was the way in which you got on in life and the way in which you were successful. And if you were ah any way different, you were not just an outsider, but you were actively excluded. yes And yet now, in 2025, we're thinking much more about what makes people individuals.
00:04:13
Speaker
And getting people to be more authentic about themselves actually leads to greater levels of happiness, if that's the right way to describe it. But I think more contentment with being in our own skin,
00:04:27
Speaker
then enables us to do more of a wider range of different things. Yes. But you need that understanding first, don't you? Yeah. fulfillment, 100%. You're completely accurate. I am in such agreement with you. Well, thank you very much.
00:04:44
Speaker
It's all just from the conversations that we've been having, you know, but let's talk about this internal family system. We all have one. And I suspect that people are thinking that it's probably something to do with who sits where at the dinner table and, and it might very well be, but that's not actually the real sort of meaning of an internal family system. What is an internal family system? Well, you're correct in saying, you know, what's going on with this title here. And as usual, it's a misnomer. so many things are.
00:05:17
Speaker
In the world of psychology, they have a family system. So like you said, you know, the pecking order, the father, the patriarch, the matriarch, you know, the middle child, all of that stuff.
00:05:29
Speaker
That was the study. But then Dick Schwartz, Richard Schwartz, started working with some young women who were having...
Perfectionism and Emotional Mechanisms
00:05:37
Speaker
eating disorders and they would say a part of me feels like this and a part of me won't do that and a part of me and a part of me and all these young ladies are saying that and he's like well what's what are they talking about so he got very curious and then found this entire discovered this entire understanding of ourselves it's also called parts work and he also calls it ah self-discovery
00:06:08
Speaker
When we think of like, who am I, right? The age old question of who am I and why am I here? So who am I? So we can say, for instance, anger.
00:06:20
Speaker
When you've ever been so mad that spits flying out of your mouth and your face is turning red and you're pounding your fist and you're like, oh The angry part of us has taken over. It's not our entire personality, thank goodness, but somehow this anger has taken over and is running the whole show.
00:06:43
Speaker
And then after the anger has its turn, then maybe shame comes or relief comes or tears come or heartache comes. And then all of a sudden there's another thing that's running the show.
00:06:57
Speaker
So those are a good example of how parts of us will take over. So if I'm very, very responsible and I have to do my work, then my responsible part takes over.
00:07:11
Speaker
Or if I'm a goof-off and I don't want to work and I just want to be silly all the time, then my goof-off will take over. People have some issues and they're called perfectionism, and that's very mean.
00:07:25
Speaker
to always have the carrot in front of the horse and the horse never gets to hit take a bite. So perfectionism can be something that somebody would be prideful of, but actually the backstory is they were not acceptable by the way they were with their flaws and their mistakes. And they had to perform for love and affection. So they became perfect and it worked in their household growing up.
00:07:52
Speaker
And then they so decided that this would be A great way to live into the world because they would get lots of attention and they would be safe and they would be liked. So they drive themselves berserk trying to get it perfect. And perfectionism is one of those things that you can never get perfect.
00:08:12
Speaker
It's always out of reach. so it's like a self-torturing in order to be safe and accepted. Is it then that our internal family system almost is part of the control of our emotions, our reactions to different things?
00:08:26
Speaker
Yes. Right. Is it a learnt behavior or is it something that is just, we're all different and we all have a different internal family system and the family is almost like the different types of emotions? Right.
00:08:41
Speaker
Exactly. So emotions will be one category, for instance, but then you can have like the perfectionism isn't an emotion, but it's ah it's a type of way. so you can think of
The Role of Self-Awareness in Internal Systems
00:08:53
Speaker
people having so many ways about them.
00:08:56
Speaker
So even when we go into different situations, when we're hanging out with our friends, a different part of us will be revealed. We feel safe, we feel relaxed, we feel silly. Some people, when they have alcoholism,
00:09:10
Speaker
those parts of them come out when they drink. Sometimes when we're, you know, with family and there's a dynamic and there's a tension and there's ah between two people or there's been some abuse, you know, then there's there's a victim of feeling that we have around our certain parent or something.
00:09:31
Speaker
So you can see there's so many aspects of each person. And when we can start slowing down and say, who's talking now, we can understand ourselves a little bit better because we're we're very complicated and confusing when we look in the mirror and say, who the hell am
Influence of Family Dynamics on Personal Growth
00:09:51
Speaker
I? And it's just a matter of what time is it and what's the situation, what's the circumstances? So it's like a rotation inside. And when there's our true self inside,
00:10:02
Speaker
So the there's someone observing, not running the show, but observing. It's the bigger one in the back. And they're just the quiet self. They're the part that loves us no matter what.
00:10:14
Speaker
And they're just quiet back there. So when all the these little munchkin parts, all these parts that are frantic and ah and anxious and depressed and scared and fearful... when they look around and they say, well, who is in here? And there's a silent part that's very strong and that loves all the parts.
00:10:33
Speaker
And they can say, oh, well, what are you doing here? So when you say you look in the mirror, and I think it's always a very wise person who can say that they know who they are, what's important to them, they've got their life planned out.
00:10:48
Speaker
The vast majority of us don't. no But understanding this internal family system is one of the steps in order to reach or get closer to that point of really understanding who we are yeah and what is going to make us happy.
00:11:05
Speaker
So who created or invented, identified, discovered all of this and and decided to call it the internal family system? It's Richard Schwartz. And he's been doing this for over 40 years now. right Some people are just, it's just tipping point of mainstream. And the work is amazing.
00:11:25
Speaker
Oh, life changing. Yes. I've done this works for 10 years. I've done over 6,400 sessions. People's lives change in one hour. I've had people, so many people, oh my God, I've been doing therapy for years and this is the first time I've ever, you know, felt this way or actually felt a shift or actually, you know, feel some kind of self-love towards myself. Like I've heard that over and over again.
00:11:52
Speaker
Liking yourself is an important thing. and And if you can't yeah actually do that, then you've got to address that before you can actually move forward. Yeah. Why did he decide to call it an internal family system? Because he compared it to the family structure, the family system of the family and the middle kid and all that. Right. He was like, oh, it's like that because it was new. Right. So he's like, we only know multiplication because of addition. Right. So we compare. So it's like family systems, except for it's internal.
00:12:25
Speaker
So we don't have a father running around and a mother running around, but we have like the, all the emotions. We have the perfectionism. We have our trauma responses. Right. So even perfectionism could be a trauma
Cultural and Societal Impacts on Behavior
00:12:38
Speaker
response saying, well, if I become perfect, then I won't, you know, be rejected. I'll be lovable. I'll be liked. I won't be abused. I, you know, there'll be less excuses to criticize me. We may have a highly critical part of us.
00:12:55
Speaker
And that part is trying very hard to keep us out of trouble, but it's causing anxiety. Yes. I'm fascinated by all of this. I totally agree with you that someone could find themselves understanding about the internal family system, being able to put the pieces together to create their own system and realizing very quickly that it does change their life because they've changed their perception. It's almost like, I think, if the brain is the hardware of the computer, the mind is the software that makes the brain work and it creates all its different opinions and ways of viewing the world. Yes. The internal family system is like a software upgrade. Perfect.
00:13:38
Speaker
Perfect. It's almost as if, you know, when say in years gone by, yeah we just accepted how we had to fit in. And that causes the the internal conflicts within ourselves, as well as conflicts with all the systems outside of us, ah the work environment, the school environment, the family environment, the going down the road environment.
00:13:58
Speaker
When we actually really understand ourselves, we can understand and and decide for ourselves which part of the external systems we want to adapt in order to fit in and which parts we don't want to. Wouldn't that be a wonderful world? It would be absolutely fantastic. And if everyone understood it and could actually say, yes, okay, this is how we, as the majority are going to be doing something, but it doesn't fit with Fred, but we'll accommodate what he needs in order to for us all to be able to live together. Yeah. That would be a fantastic way. Yes. But we don't have enough people who understand are aware at the moment because until you came along, I wasn't aware that I had an internal family system. Yeah. And I suspect most people are the same. Right. Because if we had that...
00:14:49
Speaker
we would be kinder to ourselves and to each other. Yes. I mentioned there about adapting and being able to understand how we need to adapt to be able ah to interact more effectively with other people who have a different internal family system.
00:15:05
Speaker
But there's that word in the middle, the family system. What influence does our family have on our internal family system? A hundred percent because that's who shapes us. Right. So say, we'll say middle child because we brought that up already. Talk about me again.
00:15:25
Speaker
Well, the middle you can you can validate. Yes. So the middle child is not the oldest child. No. And is not the youngest child. No. No. So the middle child, like in ah in America, we say the tween years. So year 10, 11, 12 kind of is the tween years. Tween is not this and not that.
00:15:48
Speaker
so So if somebody um is a middle child, they're always in comparison. Yes. And then they're like, where do I fit in? Because they don't feel like they have a position because the oldest one is always the commotion and arguing with the parents and making the first way and maybe the favorite one or the one who has high expectations. So then that first one has their own conditioning.
00:16:15
Speaker
And then the baby one, they get away with murder. no one holds them accountable. the parents are tired too tired to put in lots of structure They're the cute ones. They will not be challenged for their education. Maybe they don't feel like, depending on how many kids they've had, you know, in their family, maybe they feel like no one really cares about them anymore, like they're leftover or they're extra or the oldest one has to take care of them. Then the oldest one might have resentment towards the baby. Like, I didn't ask for these five kids. You know, why am I the mini parent? Yes. So you see each position has their own conditioning and then they have to grow up in the world and, you know, operate from there. So as a middle child, you may still be comparing yourself with other people, even though your brothers and sisters aren't in your daily life and you're not being compared against them.
00:17:10
Speaker
So it's, it's just like we carry forward who we were. And then if you have an abusive parent, children of abusive people, We think we're definitely less than, we're not important enough, we should be quiet, we should be invisible, ah you don't want to rock the boat, you don't want to stand out, you don't want to upset anybody, you're saying I'm sorry all the time. And then people who are neglected.
00:17:39
Speaker
So their parents just didn't know how to raise them, there was no affection in the family. They don't like being touched. Other people intimidate them. Everything's a mystery. They don't know how to behave in social situations. So everything, really, everything, we have this software upgrade when we understand our internal family system. But at the same time, we have to understand the developers that have worked on our internal family system.
00:18:08
Speaker
Right. And where they were coming from. And then it's almost like, yeah, I can see you know, as a middle child, and you know, I'm not complaining about anything, but looking back, I can think, okay, well, because I'm not the first one, the first one has these interests. Therefore, the second one must also like the same things.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah. And the third one must also like the same things and it carries on because that's the expectation. The expectation is set by experience and therefore everything must fit in, which it takes us back to that how in the past that was the way to be successful was to fit in. right Now it's the way is to be more authentic about yourself and understanding what an authentic you looks like because there's only going to be in the whole history of time one person like you there's never been you before there will never be another you it's you are unique to this moment in the whole history of time and you've got to work out well definitely you have to work out what it is that makes you you so that you can be you yes and understanding this internal family system seems very key to that you know i'm of that age where i am having conversations with my the friends that i grew up with and saying things like yesterday i was so like my dad you all look at one another and you're going like yeah i know exactly what you mean never wanted to be right right because our behavior is ah it's also learned right that's a question you asked earlier you know is it learned Yes, it's learned, it's modeled, it's it's embedded into us. And then also in our DNA,
00:20:00
Speaker
We have things. So if we have if you study epigenetics, that's how trauma is carried through generations.
Internal Family Systems as Emotional Software Upgrade
00:20:07
Speaker
So that's why when we used to discriminate more around culture, like, oh those those kind of people, they're always mad. Well, yeah, if you look at their history, you could see why they would be mad. yes It's in our DNA. So when we have all of these parts, so you're like, okay, whatever, I'm pre-programmed. But then we have preferences and then we have anger and we have emotional upset.
00:20:32
Speaker
So if we're like, oh, why am I always so sad? Why am I always so melancholy? Then we can say, oh, I have a sad heart. So when we start learning the internal family systems, we realize we don't have to have that one part running the show. that that's just a part of us.
00:20:53
Speaker
So when that silent part that I mentioned can start showing up and becoming present, when we can sit down, Michael, and be with ourselves for a little while doing nothing, being nobody, not performing, not meeting expectations, but just sitting quietly with a cup of tea, looking out the window.
00:21:13
Speaker
You know, when we can just be with ourselves and be okay and not have all this criticism, and accept our flaws and accept our you know our way. Being us, yes. then we can calm down the parts that are always frantic and anxious and I have to do and not good enough because we're very mean to ourselves inside
The Power of Self-Talk
00:21:35
Speaker
our head.
00:21:35
Speaker
Isn't it crazy? We all talk to ourselves all day long in our head, but no one talks about all that talking. I firmly believe that the most important conversations that we have are the ones that we have inside our own head. Yes. The words that we say to ourselves will impact how we how we think and how we see the world and how we interact with ourself and with other people. And wouldn't it be nice if we liked ourselves since we're going to be stuck with ourselves our whole life?
00:22:03
Speaker
Well, there's only one answer to that, and that is yes, it would be really great if we all got along with ourselves. But we all learn to be very self-critical. Yes. We all learn to dislike doing things that we dislike and and build on those.
00:22:20
Speaker
One of the things that you said about DNA and unhappiness being part of our DNA is I wonder if if that's actually sort of something that it happens at the the point that our DNA is created, or is it something that is develops because we grow up perhaps with people who have very unhappy lives. People at school who impact our lives by their attitudes. And so when people are unhappy, always seems easier to go to the lowest common denominator rather than to build ourselves up.
Protective Mechanisms: Fear and Sadness
00:22:59
Speaker
If there's somebody miserable in a room, then everyone in the room is going to be miserable. Right, right.
00:23:06
Speaker
You know, misery... misery loves company. Now when you do internal family systems, you're like, Oh yeah, no kidding. Yes. Yeah. Do we find it easier or is it something like that person's, is it our reaction to want to make them happier is to sort of like, yeah, well, if you're unhappy, then I'll be unhappy as well.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yes. Our brain is actually wired to be ah fearful. So, you know, we say unhappy, but if you if you go to the extreme of a fearfulness, because that's how we've survived all these centuries. Yes. So if we're afraid, then we won't have risk, right? We won't try the new job. We won't ask the girl out. We won't, you know, wear the flashy shirt. We won't. So we're we're trying to be risk aversion. But then if that's our natural way, then we're denying ourselves. And that's where like the sadness can come in.
00:24:01
Speaker
because why are we sad? Because we are sensitive people and we've been brokenhearted. We've been disappointed. We've been let down. We had something that we absolutely loved and adored. And then, you know, we, we had to move from that city or we had lost that friend or, you know, the dog died or something. So we carry around sadness to protect us.
00:24:22
Speaker
Like, don't be happy. Don't get excited. You'll be disappointed. So it's a, That fearful is a mechanism to keep us, quote unquote, safe. And then a lot of these other negative talking things are also to keep us safe. Or sometimes we have broken hearts and we don't know how to repair them.
00:24:41
Speaker
And we're we're just we'll just stay with what's miserable because at least I know it. then try to feel better and then maybe be disappointed once again.
Therapeutic Benefits of Internal Family Systems
00:24:51
Speaker
Is that why sometimes it feels like it's easier to remember the sad times than it is to remember the happy times?
00:24:59
Speaker
Yeah, the brain is is wired for that. And that's why when we have happy times, we really need to be super excited about it because that helps the brain also understand like, oh, this is exciting. This is good. Let's put some more energy and let's have some neuro ah activity here. And the more we repeat the happy times, the brain's like, yeah, oh, good. He likes it. She likes it. Let's keep doing this. And then it it like gathers a pattern and we can rewire our brain. That's why when we do internal family systems healing, we heal out the heaviness or the stuckness or the, you know, the critical one or the whatever it is.
Episode Conclusion and Call-to-Action
00:25:49
Speaker
And then the system, the whole system gets rewired to say, oh, we don't have to have that as a, as an emotional reference anymore. We can uplift this abuse that happened or we can bring to light the sadness and and unburden the system of that sadness that we've been carrying since that bad thing happened or since You know, my family's always sad because we've lost the great one, ah whatever. You know, we had to move from our country when we got invaded, you know, whatever that is. But we can go in deep, deep, deep into the subconscious and unburden these things. And this work is actually evidence-based.
00:26:32
Speaker
It's not just like, oh, that sounds nice. Does that even work? Yes, it's evidence-based. So, you know, this is so powerful, this work. Yes. You know, the last 30 minutes have been a happy time for me. I really do appreciate it. But I also get the feeling that we've just started to scrape the surface of all of this. But it is so very fascinating. I hope that we'll be able to invite you back again sometime very soon.
00:27:01
Speaker
Oh, I could talk days about this, Michael. Yes. Yes, that would be brilliant. But for today, Ursula, thank you very much. I really do appreciate your time. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for bringing me on. It's been great.
00:27:15
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abusida. And in this episode of Fit for My Age, I have been having a conversation about internal family system with Ursula Lentini.
00:27:29
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us by using the links in the description. At Fit for My Age, our aim is proactive positive aging. Knowing the risks early is an important part of maintaining good health.
00:27:43
Speaker
That is why we recommend the annual health test from York Test. York Test provides an assessment of 39 different health markers, including cholesterol, diabetes, vitamin D, vitamin B12, liver function, iron deficiency, inflammation, and a full blood count. The list goes on.
00:28:01
Speaker
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00:28:18
Speaker
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00:28:32
Speaker
That description is well worth reading. I'm sure that you will have enjoyed listening to this episode of Fit for My Age as much as Ursula and I have enjoyed making it. Please give it a like.
00:28:44
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe and share it with your friends, family and work colleagues. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of Fit For My Age, thank you for listening, and goodbye.