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When the Third Culture Kid Grows Up: An Interview with M
115 Plays3 months ago
Today we are chatting to the delightful M, who was previously a cross-cultural worker and GP in Middle East, but currently processing all the transitions in Argentina with her Latino husband. She is also one of our writers here at Stories I’d Tell You at Dinner.
We explore M’s lifelong interest in connecting with and finding common ground with the stranger, people whom on the face of it seem quite different to her, and how this has played out in her work history and friendships. We also discuss grief in relation to the cancer diagnoses of two of her brothers, one of whom recovered and the other passed away, and learning to trust a God who is good, loving, and kind.
In today’s episode, we explore:
- Growing up in West Africa as a child of cross-cultural workers, becoming a Christian at five years old, and bouncing around continents as a Third Culture Kid.
- M’s lifelong interest in connecting with and understanding other people, who on first glance are quite different to her, and how this has looked in her friendships and work life. This includes training as a GP and working in Aboriginal health clinics, alternative communities, and moving to the Middle East as a cross-cultural worker and GP.
- Walking through seasons of grief with two of her brothers diagnosed with cancer, one of whom recovered while her other brother passed away. We explore the shift from an intellectual faith to a deeply emotional one, holding both emotions and intellect together, to trust that God is good, strong, and kind.
- Her recent marriage to a Latino man, which has saw her living in Argentina and learning Spanish.
You can check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the episode.
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Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
Introduction and Childhood Memories
00:00:00
Speaker
saying I've never been back to that country since I left as a child. I left when I was eight and a half. It's funny how, you know, when talk about child, you know, ages as a child, halves are important.
00:00:12
Speaker
They are important. So I don't say, well, like, you know, 45 and a half. no but I'll talk back at that time and say, oh, yeah, it's pretty well.
00:00:27
Speaker
Oh.
00:00:30
Speaker
This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
00:00:45
Speaker
It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
Em's Transition to Argentina
00:01:00
Speaker
Hi, I'm Beg and today I'm here with Em, a GP, a cross-cultural worker and currently in transition, having moved from the Middle East to Argentina with a new husband. Welcome to the After Dinner Mint, Em.
00:01:12
Speaker
Hey, hello. Thanks for having me. It's lovely to join you. sorry tell us, what does a typical week look like for you in Argentina? What kind of things make up your week? Well, every week looks different to be honest and so it is a bit hard to nail down a routine and maybe actually that's one of the things i've I've struggled with because i really appreciate routines and I'm in a culture where the spontaneous is what is enjoyed and preferred.
Challenges of Adapting and Language Learning
00:01:41
Speaker
so one the things that was my routine was that I was taking regular Spanish classes So every morning I'd walk about 35 minutes down a busy road in our suburb and just enjoy all the people walking past, walking their dogs, people on their way to work, kids on their way to school.
00:02:02
Speaker
And then take a couple of hours of Spanish and then walk back. So it was a great little routine for me. that I was grateful for and then the afternoons was a mixture of some study perhaps going across the other side of the city on a bus to see my mother-in-law my sister-in-law sometimes an activity that you know we'd scheduled and with church sometimes just doing the shopping cooking cleaning all of that so yeah Routines have changed a bit. The last few weeks my sister has been out and that's been really special. And today we take her back to the airport. So, yeah, that's going to sad.
00:02:45
Speaker
Oh, How long have you been if you guys were in the same place? I was last in Australia about 14 months ago, so I saw her then. and she did actually come out to Middle East beginning of the year.
00:02:59
Speaker
So I have seen her in the last year, which is great But we had Medialunas and coffee just before this interview. Medialunas are kind of the local bakery speciality. It's basically architeering version of a croissant.
00:03:17
Speaker
So we enjoyed that just now and she has a few extra packs in her bag for when she gets to the Apple.
00:03:26
Speaker
Oh, that's lovely. a question I do have is because you were in the Middle East and now you're in Argentina, like how many languages do you speak? I'm not a polyglot.
00:03:37
Speaker
I do speak Arabic. And yeah, I will call myself fluent because i think you're always trying to reach fluency and there's always words you don't understand and things that you can't say. So you have to say in a really roundabout way to get to what you want to say.
00:03:55
Speaker
And now I'm learning Spanish. And so actually I find that every time I want to speak Arabic, if I'm sending a voice message to a friend, even though my Spanish is so basic, actually Spanish comes out.
00:04:07
Speaker
So now I have this interference between Spanish and Arabic, which is unusual. And so actually only English, Spanish, well, baby Spanish and Arabic.
00:04:20
Speaker
So... Wow. See, I speak baby Spanish because my grandparents are Spanish. Oh, really? um But very basic because, you know, like practicing with your grandparents, they're only people I know who speak Spanish. So, you know, it when they want to talk about me. So, like, their Spanish is like, you ari from the 50s, kind of like, gosh darn, like language, it changes. Yeah.
00:04:48
Speaker
Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah. I think it has made learning a language has made me appreciate, know this sounds silly, but I think I really appreciate m what it is to kind of have, know, maybe...
Diversity of Language and Cultural Appreciation
00:05:06
Speaker
tens of hundreds of words for something really simple so I was reading this book recently called Clear by Carol Davis I can recommend it and it's just a short book um and one thing i noticed in it was that There's a character trying to learn language and he's a amazed by this old farmer who's explaining that there's so many different words for the types of mist that come across this little island off the Hebrides of Scotland and or different types of peat bog.
00:05:41
Speaker
And I think now I find that really interesting. Maybe if I'd read the same book 10 years ago, might have wanted to skip those pages. Whereas now I think actually that's true. There's something really beautiful about the fact that we do have lots of different words to mean something slightly different and that you sort of learn about a place and people through learning language. So I appreciate it even if it's still a hard grind in the process and I think I don't know how I'm going remember these verbs and all I do is butcher them every time they come out of my mouth.
00:06:12
Speaker
That's so great. Like I love that you're like you're doing the lessons and you're being immersed and like your progress will obviously like come along. Like that's amazing to learn so many languages as an adult.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I was bad at languages at school. i I tried to learn French and i was so bad that when I put my hand up to learn German, they actually took me aside and said, and yeah, I'm not kidding. They took me aside and they said, no no, we don't think you should. And I think it's because they didn't want me to, I think it's actually because they didn't want me to bring down the average grade of the class. Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
That was me. Because I wouldn't, I wouldn't be struggler. Honestly, I would have been a struggler. But now I think I realized that we all learn in different ways. And maybe be the textbook method for me is not my easiest way of learning a language.
00:07:06
Speaker
And an easier way is to have someone share, you know, interesting stories with me. And as they're chatting about, you know, what happened you know when their dog got bitten yesterday i'm kind of glued trying to work out the details and fill in what i didn't understand with the words that don't make sense yet so yes yeah i and also i will say duolingo don't this duolingo there we are yeah you're still that some good words on duolingo so oh
00:07:40
Speaker
I have honestly thought about learning Arabic and like only for a purely selfish reason that my kids, they're probably like two of them. One of my kids is like two, he's only one of two white kids in his class. Like there are kids from all over the country, all like so many different places. Like there are like heaps of Afghani, Pakistani, our Iraqi kids, class like Filipino and...
00:08:06
Speaker
and A lot of Asian. So they, yeah, but it's so interesting because so many of the mums at the school don't speak English. Yes, okay. often thought like it would be so fun to learn Arabic just for the simple fact that then I could, all I have is something else to learn. Yes, that's right. Like that's it. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:26
Speaker
But even to be able to just say, know, how are at the school gate. You're looking for, you know, to be able to say how are you and, you know, like it would be so encouraged that you're even just – you know say hello how are you at the school girl but anyway it would it's always great to be able to say how are you to yeah to people at the school gate yeah and there is like I was fascinated to learn there are just so many different dialects of Arabic like there's not a standard Arabic either
00:08:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. so And I think that's what humbles you. That's why I could never say I'm fluent in Arabic because if an Arabic speaker, native Arabic speaker, if they say, look, I've got no idea what someone from Morocco is saying, for example, if they are from Lebanon, but an odd for example, then in who am I to be able to say that I would understand them? So I'm always growing and learning and learning.
00:09:28
Speaker
Yeah, so I think fluency is something really rare and unusual. So, yeah, thank God for any opportunity somebody has to be bilingual as a child because that's probably the best way of learning a language. Those adults will always struggle.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, would believe that. my My grandparents, I think, learned English as adults. But, yeah, like it took them a long time. Yeah, yeah. And they probably still say some things in un unusual ways. Yeah.
00:10:03
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that's so great. Sorry. So I've completely sidelined us into languages. No, that's fine. Yeah. what What are
Passion for Pastoral Care and Compassion's Challenges
00:10:11
Speaker
you doing when you feel the most yourself kind of like, this is what I was made to do. Like, what makes you feel the most alive?
00:10:18
Speaker
I enjoy people. I enjoy being with people and I probably enjoy one-on-one the most. So, and particularly face-to-face.
00:10:29
Speaker
So, we're talking right now and we have a video screen and I really appreciate that because think I can get fidgety when I'm on the phone talking to a friend. And even if I'm really grateful for the opportunity, I've realized I kind of need to doodle at the same time. I need to do something with my hands because they're actually not there.
00:10:47
Speaker
And... So one-on-one, when there's a real opportunity to listen, share, reflect, and enjoy conversation and find out when people are around.
00:11:01
Speaker
I think in that sense, i actually, i really enjoy pastoral care. trying to think how I'd describe that to someone who doesn't hear that word a lot. But I think spending time with people with the name to not just have a conversation about something outside themselves, but actually about where they're at, how they're going, what's happening for them in their circle, their family, their family.
00:11:29
Speaker
Their personal life, but actually also spiritually, how they're engaging with God, how their relationship with Jesus like if they're a Christian.
00:11:41
Speaker
How their relationship with Jesus is if they're not a Christian, what they're thinking about it. ah So I really enjoyed that aspect as well and wanting to encourage people. And then i enjoy writing, which is why it's been lovely for me to join you guys. Emma would like to – Excellent.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, I'd like to develop that more. It's like a muscle that you kind of have to tone up and it feels a bit flabby at the moment. So that's something love to grow. And I enjoy being outdoors.
00:12:13
Speaker
enjoy moving my body and exercise. I enjoy acts of compassion and having opportunities to show compassion in words but also in action.
00:12:28
Speaker
But I'm also aware that actually that compassion can get tired. And so I think when there's an opportunity show compassion or advocate for someone one in an issue of injustice, I kind of want to do that and I want to be there.
00:12:44
Speaker
But perhaps it can be hard to sustain. So that's just someset that those are some things I've noticed about myself. Well, this is fun because a lot of those things that you pointed out I also really enjoy.
00:12:58
Speaker
You know, in terms of like people and being outdoors and writing and all of that kind of stuff. What I'm really interested about, like how, i mean, maybe it's not a shift so much, but, you know, yeah, going from being a GP and I know that like, you know, GP is a specialty, you know, you've done all this specialty training and then you've shifted into something that kind of integrated a lot of that pastoral care, a lot of that
00:13:30
Speaker
other work I suspect yeah like how did you go from being a GP to kind of going into cross-cultural work and how yeah how did you find that yeah well I think in some ways so I've always enjoyed cross-cultural work and in the sense I've always enjoyed meeting people from different cultures different backgrounds and perhaps you know just even different subcultures So I think no being in Australia, you might be talking to someone from around, or you could be talking to someone who's just from a very different kind of subculture to you and just always enjoy those differences between people and finding out what makes people tick and learning something about about them.
00:14:16
Speaker
So I've always enjoyed that. And I think we're hard to put in boxes, aren't we? So I can kind of enjoy the fast-paced environment of working in an emergency room and discovering what the problem is, diagnosing it, treating it, you know, that kind of fast pace.
00:14:33
Speaker
But then I also really enjoy just sitting down with someone and, ah you know, for a couple of hours and hearing what's going on for them. Yeah.
Embracing Cultural Diversity as a GP
00:14:42
Speaker
I probably need to go back a little bit as well because as a child I lived in West Africa and then grew up in the UK and a little bit like your children. I went to a school where it was mostly children that had recently immigrated and immigrated sorry and that was from Pakistan and Bangladesh.
00:15:06
Speaker
And so I had lots different cultures around me from the moment I stepped into the UK. And then after that, my friends at university were a mixture of, you know, Brits, Pakistanis, Iraqis.
00:15:22
Speaker
Always enjoyed kind of just the mix of cultures around me. It felt really kind of comfortable probably across the board. You know, it wasn't like it only has to be the one type of person. And I think I've always felt that was important that we try and – we try and be without it being a project, but we we learn and we embrace what it is to be with people who are not necessarily like us in some way.
00:15:51
Speaker
And actually what we find is that actually they are more like us than we realize and we're more like them than we might realize. And yet there will still be differences. Perhaps they speak a different language at home or they eat different food at home or from a different religious background.
00:16:06
Speaker
But we kind of immerse ourselves in different worlds. i think that's helpful. So then going from working as a GP, I have worked in an indigenous medical center, Aboriginal medical center, and then worked in a really alternative little town and where, again, it was just a different subculture in Australia and i I love that to then, yeah, being cross-cultural. So in some ways I'm kind of quite comfortable having a consultation with a Syrian mother who's got, you know, eight, nine, ten kids, you know, from a different religious background and, you know, visiting her later in her home. I'm comfortable with that but I'm also comfortable with talking to,
00:16:55
Speaker
someone who you know prefers only homeopathic medicine and walks into my consulting room and you know barefoot and you know might live in a bus.
00:17:06
Speaker
And I'm really comfortable with that too. you know And so I think just enjoying people... enjoying people whoever they are and it's that little moment to step into someone else's world and see things from their perspective.
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah. don't know if that answers your question. No, it really does. Like that is that's the common thread. Like, and look, I'm going to butcher this, but I think it is a, I can't even say his name, Hippocrates or whatever. And he was like, it's not so much,
00:17:45
Speaker
what does what piss What person has the disease but what disease has the person? Okay, I'd help you if you couldn't but I don't think I know. That's why not up to you.
00:18:00
Speaker
do i was like, is this a thing? Am I just butchering this embarrassingly to a person with medical training? No, no. but the Yeah, but the point of what this guy was saying was just that It is actually really important. It's not just the disease cause. It's often also like, who is this person? like,
00:18:20
Speaker
like Yeah, like how they are going to respond to like the treatment, how they're going to deal with it, like how they see the world, like all of that has an impact. Yes, totally. When people are unwell. Yeah, which is just it's probably part of that fascination. If you find people fascinating, that makes sense that the common thread is like, oh, like you and I seem different, but there has to be a point of commonality and I'm like very interested to find that.
00:18:48
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, it's exactly that. And I think when people feel like you get them, well, we feel it too. I feel it as well. And then there's, there's compassion and there's understanding.
00:19:03
Speaker
And I've definitely had consultations as a GP where I remember one consultation, I'll just digress slightly, but I i remember this was years ago and she had a chronic health condition that I think many doctors didn't really have time for.
00:19:20
Speaker
and ah And I remember going in and talking to her and I think she'd come in probably with chronic pain related to her health condition. And I didn't know a lot about that health condition, but I do remember just saying, okay, talk me through it. What's what's happening?
00:19:39
Speaker
You know, how does it feel? like uh you know when did it first start just kind of like give me the story there we are this is all about stories we love stories give me the story and help me not to jump to well what's causing it what's going to treat this do I have an answer do I not does it make sense in my paradigm or not And in that conversation, there ah yeah, in that conversation, which I enjoyed, and I learned something from her, even just in her experience and what it felt like.
00:20:14
Speaker
And I know I popped out. You know everything's behind a curtain? And, you know, we all pretend that the conversation is so very private behind those curtains and that's all that. Nothing is private. But anyway, popped out, perhaps to go and get something. Perhaps I was called away.
00:20:30
Speaker
And then i wasn't long, but when I came back, she'd gone. And she's just completely gone. And she knew I was coming back. You know, it wasn't like, you know, she'd gone off in a half full, I'd left in a half full. You know, it'd been warm, it had been easy, but I just popped out. And when I was back, you know, less than 10 minutes later, and she disappeared. And I remember thinking, right, okay.
00:20:58
Speaker
In a sense, she wasn't still asking, why won't you give me something? What's the test? You know, where is it? She'd left. And I actually took that positively. i suppose that could be interpreted negatively, but I took it positively because I thought, I think she felt listened to.
00:21:14
Speaker
She felt listened to. And I think that's actually the point at which she left, that she was listened to. She was no longer the patient in cubicle XYZ who was saying, where's the doctor and why won't they come and give me something?
00:21:32
Speaker
I was ready. i was ready to say, okay, well, m okay what do you want to do and i think for her it was that she'd been listened to and obviously then the consultations where I walk away from it feeling frustrated with myself and possibly with that the patient is where I probably didn't take that time to connect And so then they're frustrated and asking me, you know, what what else can you do and why won't you do more?
00:22:05
Speaker
um And I'm finding it hard to find the point of connection and to be able to understand. That feels quite vulnerable to share that. No, guy but I do think it would be so hard to be a GP. Like if I go see one of my GPs, they are so busy. They have 10-minute slots.
00:22:24
Speaker
And actually the GP I liked the best. She's since retired and i was so sad. she used to run behind hours, by hours, yeah because she used to work in like one of the remote communities.
00:22:36
Speaker
But I knew when I would see her, I'd be like, I'd ring and say like how far behind is she running? Is it like three hours, whatever? And I would sit there and I would wait. But I knew when would her, I'd be Yeah. I've had two doctors like this, but I knew that when I would see them, it would be worth the wait because they would sit, they would listen and they'd be like, look, you can do this. You can do that. Like I wouldn't feel like they were trying to rush you out. You're like, I'm happy to wait for that because you know what I mean? I can see that your job is hard. You've taken the time. Like I would much prefer that to someone who's just like, you know, you know.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, and actually for that reason, I used to always only take double double patient slots, double time slots, because for me, I can't do it quickly. And I was given that advice when famously became a doctor.
00:23:23
Speaker
And bear in mind, I should add that I don't do medicine full time anymore, but I was given that advice that... People are willing to wait when they see that you care and that you listen.
00:23:37
Speaker
And okay, maybe not everybody is, but don't rush through them either for your schedule or even just for theirs and then rush through their patient story because they're people just wanting to be heard and understood in that moment.
00:23:55
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, it's it's a much bigger become a podcast all about just that. But it is. yeah I appreciate, though, that you were willing to wait. That's so lovely. Whereas you feel terribly guilty oh when you are running behind when actually it's usually that you do try and stop and listen to someone in depth who was really pain that day.
00:24:17
Speaker
I have referred people to both of those doctors. I had a male doctor and a female doctor who both of them were like that. And I really appreciated it. Like yeah I would say to people like, actually go, go talk to him. Actually one of, I'll tell you this story and then we'll totally move on.
00:24:33
Speaker
But one of the GPs, he actually, i have never heard of anyone doing this in my life. He saw a friend of mine who was really, she was not doing well.
00:24:43
Speaker
Like, you know, things were very, very hard and she saw him and she was like, maybe I need antidepressants. And he said, look, you know, do you have any time in your week? I think she was caring for a parent. She had younger kids. yeah Do you have any time in your week just for yourself to sit and do anything? and she said, no. And he's like, look, can we do an experiment?
00:25:03
Speaker
Can, yeah, can you just book some slots in your week with babysitting? And I think one time she went to the beach, she sat there and read her Bible, like, you know what i mean But like she had it on a regular schedule.
00:25:16
Speaker
And he called her to see how she was. And after about six weeks, he said, how are you doing? And she's like, I feel really good. And he's like, but I don't think you need to be on antidepressants. I was like, I have never in my life heard Yeah.
00:25:29
Speaker
I was like, and that was my job to read the letters. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I think it's one of those who that, yeah, who can listen to someone's life and then think outside the box a little bit.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, precious. It'd hard. It'd be a hard like talking to a kind uncle, right? Yeah. Yeah. So just hats off to you guys. I'm like, I think being a GP would be very hard. That's very gracious. like So how how did you become a Christian
Journey to Christianity and Early Faith Lessons
00:26:00
Speaker
in all of this? Yeah.
00:26:02
Speaker
Well, I became a Christian as a child. So we were living in West Africa at the time. My parents were also cross-cultural workers when I was a child. Yeah, yeah. So we living in West Africa.
00:26:16
Speaker
And I have so many good memories. I have so many good memories. Life was simple. Life was basic. It was a very basic setup. was a really poor country.
00:26:27
Speaker
But I'm thankful that I had the opportunity to learn the local language just through playing with my friends. I don't speak it anymore, so I don't add it to my list of languages because I don't speak it at all now.
00:26:39
Speaker
but I'm sure you could pick it up, though. like Yeah. If you heard it. don't know. It's interesting. Yeah, be interesting. I've never been back to that country since I left as a child. i left when I was eight and a half. It's funny how, you know, when you talk about child, your ages as a child, halves are important. No, you are important. i um i like So I don't say, like, you know, 45 and a half. no but I'll talk back at that time and say, oh, yeah, it's bit of a half.
00:27:13
Speaker
So, yes, I became a Christian, fully sitting on my mother's lap. And I was five and a half, and about five anyway. And every day my parents used to take each of us for what we'd call a quiet time. I guess it's like a little devotional time. And at that time it was really just reading through a children's picture by them.
00:27:41
Speaker
and kind of telling the story you know for each which picture, I guess. And I just understood something very, very simple, which was that I had done bad things wrong.
00:27:56
Speaker
And that meant that actually, if I was forgiven by Jesus, that when I died, would go to heaven and be with him. And I understood clearly that my sin was a problem. i understood And I also understood that I did do bad things. Like that wasn't something that was like, oh, really? I do bad things.
00:28:13
Speaker
I knew when I was disobeying my parents. And so i do remember crying and asking Jesus to forgive me for my sins. for the things I'd done wrong and then being confident that, okay, that means I'm not going to go to heaven.
00:28:33
Speaker
Now, as child, that understanding kind of grew. It feels really like it was just the tiniest seed and I think God is gracious and he uses those tiny seeds.
00:28:43
Speaker
And so i kept growing in my understanding of what it was to be a Christian, what it was to follow Jesus. I would say that in my thankfulness, deep thankfulness, having parents who really modelled very authentic Christian faith, loving the Bible, reading it every day, praying every day,
00:29:10
Speaker
and loving people and caring compassionately for people. So I'm thankful for that modeling. And I would also say that perhaps my understanding of the Krishna cake was also quite head heavy, more than ah more than the heart centric.
00:29:29
Speaker
And maybe that's just the reality when we kind of grow up with something. It's like more the norm. But ah I was also growing to, you know really love the Bible and I was reading it regularly a teenager and trying to make sense of it. And then when I was going to university, more of the same.
00:29:53
Speaker
But I think for me, there were some pivotal milestones which kind of were like turning points, like what am I going to do with this? When I was 15, my younger brother, by six years, was diagnosed with leukemia.
00:30:08
Speaker
And he was really sick. And he had an adult form of leukemia. And it was scary. It was scary seeing how sick he was, ah seeing all the different treatment he had to go through. And at that time, think it was probably more grueling and less targeted than the treatment is now.
00:30:28
Speaker
So it was painful being his sister and being fearful of his death. And I think, you know, people straight away look at the parents and think, gosh, how are they going with this?
00:30:40
Speaker
But I think I was really aware that as a sibling, sometimes you're a little bit overlooked, but you're also grieving and trying to make sense of it. And yet your peer group, your friends at school don't necessarily know how to talk about it ah england So that was really painful time for me and also a time when I was really de depending on God and seeking to trust him if my brother didn't survive.
00:31:08
Speaker
And my brother did survive. He had a bone marrow child in the end. And, yeah, I'm very thankful for him and thankful for the miracle of life that God gave him.
00:31:21
Speaker
And then a little bit later, few years on, my older brother was diagnosed with a brain tumour, a very aggressive brain tumour.
00:31:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. and Oh, my gosh. i thought Yeah, it felt like, whoa, why is this happening again? it is crazy. And it was such a shock and hugely, yeah know, like an outpouring of grief knowing that his diagnosis was very severe And he wasn't expected to make Christmas. He was diagnosed on Valentine's Day and wasn't expected to make Christmas that year.
00:31:58
Speaker
He was 27 and married and he did make Christmas and he actually... made quite a remarkable recovery after brain surgery and treatment and we were very hopeful.
00:32:14
Speaker
But when the brain tumor came back, that was a very painful time. And actually see then he died and he who was a Christian and I, yeah, dearly miss him. And in a sense, again, having to trust Jesus in what he allows in our life,
00:32:35
Speaker
that at times we see the miracle and at times we don't. And knowing that he is able but also knowing that his mystery,
00:32:47
Speaker
in what he allows in our lives. a And I think in all of that, to keep seeking to trust that not only is God sovereign, that he is good and that he is loving and kind. And I think for me that that's something that I've been growing in.
Coping with Loss and Finding Faith
00:33:07
Speaker
And i'm I'm amazed to say that in God's mercy and grace, I have really been growing in that even just in the last few years.
00:33:14
Speaker
um that I do see God as good, loving and kind. And I'm so thankful because it's not just this brain exercise that I'm like, no, he is.
00:33:27
Speaker
but i Yeah, i I've had it in my mind that I'd want kind of on my funeral tombstone, if they do that, please, Dave, to kind of be written, you know, she died knowing that Jesus was good, loving and kind.
00:33:45
Speaker
You know, that just to kind really enjoy knowing God as the one who is so loving. And I might add, because I was thinking about this just recently, i know you asked me, is there a, you know, is there a verse that's helped you when things are being difficult? and And I'll be really honest, I was kind of reflecting on it. was thinking, i I'm not sure that I can think of one. And I was thinking, oh, gosh, I can't think of one.
00:34:16
Speaker
But, yeah, but I thought, well, I'll just be honest about that. And in a em em time and some years, some years ago, when it was a very, very painful time, incredibly painful time. I've been through a few roller coasters in my life. And i in this particular period, I just found myself listening to Christian songs over and over again because I want to just sense God's presence. And I do find that music really helps me to be reminded of who he is and his love and his hope.
00:34:52
Speaker
And there was this one song, that I'm not sure why it captured my attention, but I i loved it. It's called Catch Me Singing.
00:35:02
Speaker
And the original artist, his name has slipped my memory, but I know the Worship Initiative covered the song as well, but both versions of it are beautiful. And there's this one line And this story has an empty grave.
00:35:22
Speaker
And it just captured my heart, my attention. And I feel a lot about it. And I think it's because it sums up the heart of a Christian faith, which we call the gospel which is that you know Jesus not only died for our sins the universal disease that actually is in all of us but also that there's hope that he i he sees us he forgives us and that he not only died on the cross but he rose again and in rising again that empty tomb
00:36:03
Speaker
that empty tomb is our story, that there is hope in within our stories. And that has given me great comfort that actually in hard things that we're facing now, that we can either speak about or that we can't speak about, of that we remember these stories ah, these stories have an empty grave.
00:36:31
Speaker
know, the tombstone was rolled away. Jesus came out. Jesus is helping us. He is our friend. He sees us and knows us intimately and he walks into the middle of our stories.
00:36:44
Speaker
So, yeah, I thought I'd share that with you as well. I just love that. Like, that there's that kind of that theme of,
00:36:56
Speaker
you know And it's interesting because it it's consistently across the interviews that it's almost like you have this intellectual knowledge of God and it's, you know, a heard, I think it was Jen Wilkin, she's like, then if the heart can't love what the mind doesn't know.
00:37:12
Speaker
And it's almost like, you know, we know these truths in the Christian faith. Yeah. But it's so interesting as you've gone along, you're really like that wrestle is,
00:37:25
Speaker
is, you know, if this is true, like, is God really good? You know, yeah and then it's that, but it's that weighing, like, if he is good, could he do something about it? Or like, if he could do something about it and he didn't, is he really good?
00:37:40
Speaker
But. Yeah. Yeah, it's almost like you're holding those kind of three watermelons that are hard to hold and it's those three things together. He is good and he is kind and he is sovereign.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah. And you're like, how does that work? Yep, right I don't know, but I trust that it does. There is mystery. and There is so much mystery. and And there's mystery in the suffering, the hard thing of why and why this.
00:38:12
Speaker
And it's confusing. So maybe I'm slower to... either assign reason
00:38:26
Speaker
or slower to maybe work it out because whenever people have tried to work things out for me, it hasn't necessarily landed in kindness. It's sometimes felt like it's landed in judgment ah and that's been the heart.
00:38:42
Speaker
But i think bringing my emotions back to who Jesus is as a person and his beauty, his compassion, that's kind of given me hope.
00:38:57
Speaker
Yeah. So it's not denying the intellectual. The intellectual is important. The mind is important, isn't it? I want people to think. I really want people to think. But I want them to feel.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah, we need to feel as well. think what I heard you saying was you know in the long run actually it sounds like bringing that emotion to Christ and holding all of that he's actually held those emotions and it's been okay to do that rather than just staying in a purely intellectual faith is that what you were saying Yeah, and yes, that the intellectual is important for sure, but we need to be feelers as well and that we're not diluting.
00:39:51
Speaker
We're not diluting our Christian understanding or even the seriousness of our faith good- by becoming feelers or being feelers.
Balancing Intellect and Emotion in Faith
00:40:03
Speaker
That needs to be so wholly integrated, so so deeply integrated and
00:40:12
Speaker
And I think, you know, that misnomer of, you know, you can't feel, you know, be careful with your feelings. um You know, faith isn't about feelings. ah I know why people said that, but I think it was unhelpful.
00:40:28
Speaker
I think it was really unhelpful. And for those of us who naturally feel quite a lot as well, it was particularly unhelpful. um it's actually not biblical and so want to reclaim beauty and the importance of really knowing and enjoying and feeling god's love and knowing him and i want to grow in that i really want to grow in that yeah me too i'm like i think that yes i
00:41:03
Speaker
But I think that's the heart of prayer. I mean, like when you read the Bible, when you read the Psalms, I mean, there is just so many expressions of just, you God, where are God, how long? Like, why won't you listen to me anymore? But, yeah, you know, you think they're just so raw and yet they're completely there.
00:41:24
Speaker
or like, I mean, Job, like Job never knew why he suffered. Yeah. We know, but he never knew. Like, yeah, I just think there's such a range of emotion that I think Western culture will just say, well, you you know, if you have feelings, that's like a bit less than, know, you just want to have good doctrine. But I think if you, if your good doctrine doesn't like change your emotions and how your practical day-to-day life looks, I don't know how far that faith has gone into your heart really. Yeah.
00:41:56
Speaker
Yeah. Or like how far that faith has gone, like how mature you are. Yeah. Yeah, and i stop it maybe it's my forever wondering, which is that why can't we hold like really good kind of grooming in Bible, knowing this, b with, yeah, really deep, real, don't emotion and and holding the experience and the emotion and the feelings alongside um the mind and the grappling and the you know careful reading and understanding and maybe just in a human experience across the board not just spiritually we know we always will like kind of lean towards one or the other but we find it really hard to hold both
00:42:50
Speaker
Oh, no, that's a dream, isn't it? You're like, I want to be able to do both. Yeah, yeah. want to do both. Like, Oh, man. It's brittle. Now, in terms of that, like, balancing watermelons like that, God is good and kind and sovereign in suffering, that kind of shift from intellectual knowledge of God to that like deep knowing.
00:43:18
Speaker
is there someone who's encouraged you or inspired you in your Christian walk in that kind of way m why?
Gratitude for Friendship and Support
00:43:26
Speaker
I'm really thankful that there's actually lots of people and what a gift that is. And I love you.
00:43:34
Speaker
Friendship is something that is so, so precious. And I'm realizing that there's more more. And not taking it for granted and just having moved around lots of different places, just so thankful for beautiful friends and different people in different seasons.
00:43:53
Speaker
So actually I could mention lots of people to you. It's really hard just to sort of mention, you know, one or two. And I'm also growing in learning how to how to deepen these friendships and how to come back to friends and ah deepen them where they've you know they've got scratched and realizing that actually I'm the one who often probably scratches them.
00:44:18
Speaker
So one of my friends, Hannah, I'm really grateful because when I first moved to Australia, I just hardly knew anybody. So I moved to Australia. My parents are Australian.
00:44:30
Speaker
And i I flew in and just didn't really have a friend. I didn't even know where to get a church. and i But one of the things I did decide to do very, very early on was to join this kind of evening course and And thought oh I'd like to sort of study the Bible more. And so I joined our once a week evening course. And Hannah was in this group and just walked to her. She was easy. She was lovely. And so she's actually one of my very, very, very first friends in Australia, you know, in that first month when everything is so new. We are still friends and I just value her so much. And one of the things I'm really grateful for is just how she's prayed for me in this first year of marriage and she's given me her advice. But it's come with lots of vulnerability and ah and kindness and lived experience as well of marriage.
00:45:28
Speaker
when you know she and her husband have worked through different things. So she now lives a country town. um She was living in Sydney at the time when I met her, but now she's living in a country town. Life looks quite different. and And so I think she is just so much...
00:45:48
Speaker
ah So great value in her kindness, ah in her encouragement, in her prayerfulness, in her interest in others.
00:46:00
Speaker
And she's really insightful. So I could mention so many people, but let me mention Hannah. I love that. Hannah sounds like a beautiful friend.
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah, and she's so gifted. She's got so many amazing gifts. She's one of those people that you'd kind of want to hire immediately and say, gosh, she needs to work for us because she's just, she's incredibly efficient as well. and Yeah, in my scatterbrain, I often look at her and go, oh, right, how does she do that? um Like kindne how can I just be a little more like Hannah? I'm like, just a bit. Yeah, that's right. She's just a bomb at organizing things, you know.
00:46:43
Speaker
Now, something you said just made me really interested, and this is completely unrelated, and I promise we will get to the end of this podcast interview, I promise. But I just wanted to ask you, because I have been doing this Proverbs devotional by Tim Keller, and one of the areas it talks about of wisdom is like in finding good friends.
00:47:04
Speaker
Like as someone who's moved around a lot, like what are the type of things you look for in someone who you think, you know, you're someone to do life with, like you are a good friend. Like how do you...
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah. were beautiful So I have moved around a lot. And I think one of the things for people who are known as TCKs, it's a bit of a buzzword in the circles that use that word. So TCK is the third culture kid. So that would apply to me because I was born in Australia, you know, grew up partly in Africa, partly in the UK. So maybe there's four cultures in there. I'm not sure. But we We adapt quickly and we connect by making friends quickly.
00:47:50
Speaker
So I think that's one of the hallmarks that quite quickly you can kind of pick up friendship. At the same time, perhaps what we're not used to doing, and this is weakness of mine, is oh we struggle to know how to hold friendships across different places for long periods of time.
00:48:11
Speaker
Because we've had to kind of keep moving and keep connecting again and again. I think that one of the beautiful things about a friendship is that feeling of, oh, you too.
00:48:23
Speaker
You too. And, you know, connecting and talking and um either hearing someone express vulnerability and going, yeah.
00:48:35
Speaker
Thanks. Yeah. you So it's you too as well, isn't it? It's not just me that feels like that, you know, and and and feeling in that sense of this person doesn't have it all together. That's probably something that really draws me to somebody. And I was just reflecting with my husband the other day, because obviously I'm in this process right now living in another country and having very, very little language to navigate.
00:48:59
Speaker
that there's a difference between maybe meeting someone ah and connecting versus really developing a deep connection.
00:49:10
Speaker
So I am meeting a lot of people at the moment and there are people I meet and I think, actually, i don't naturally have a lot in common with this person and I'm trying to find connecting points.
00:49:26
Speaker
um And i think you can you can kind of develop friendship with anybody, but there's something really precious about then finding the connection where there's a mutual taking interest in the other person, maybe finding mutual connection.
00:49:43
Speaker
passions or ah kind of mutual interests where you go, oh they actually really enjoy this too, or feeling that they're designed to get to know you and how you tick or what your experience is. There's a mutual listening.
00:49:59
Speaker
um ah And I think a big thing as well for me is grace and giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Because actually in the past year, I've hurt friends and I feel deeply sad about that.
00:50:14
Speaker
And I'm still in the process of working out how I can recognize it because it does take me a while to recognize these things. Yeah. But also then how to repair it and what I can do because I feel so disappointed in myself or so ashamed of how I've, you know, not been the friend I wanted to be. and And so I think when a friend can show me grace and kindness, perhaps more than what I've ever shown them, you know, it's just such a bum.
00:50:51
Speaker
It's like when you get off a phone call with someone and you think, gosh, I just dominated that call. I just spoke for for, you know, an hour and a half, two hours. And there was actually major stuff going in their life. And they were so kind and they just listened to me.
00:51:04
Speaker
And I totally forgot to ask them about this and this and this. And then I find out that actually they've got surgery scheduled in two weeks time. And I didn't even let them get a word in edgewise because I was like, let me tell you about me, me, me, me. me And then you kind of think to yourself, oh gosh, that wasn't great.
00:51:19
Speaker
But in their kindness and their grace, they don't, give up on you and they don't you know cut the cord and go well that that won't work and so I think in all my yeah in all my wanderings and movings and transitions I'm really grateful for grace and kindness and giving the benefit of the doubt when I've been when I haven't been the friend I want to be but I'm also grateful for shared vulnerabilities um and just those connecting points of laughter or connecting points of, yeah, I love i love that book too.
00:52:00
Speaker
way. You love that book as well. It's that bit of little thing. You're like, yes, like friendship has to be about something. You're like, you're looking at something together. yeah I love, yeah, it's like there has to be that reciprocity. Like we both want to be friends and it's not one person pushing it. But I love that actually – You know, none of us are the friends that we want to be.
00:52:21
Speaker
And like the mark of a good friend is someone who can kind of be like, you know, ah I've done these things too. I'm not, you know, particularly great at this thing and that's probably, i probably did this and, you know, you did this.
00:52:34
Speaker
But isn't that wonderful to have people who are like, I want to stick it out with you. Yeah, yeah. And I'm so grateful. I'm really grateful for that because there are there are ways in which I really let friends down and acknowledge that I haven't reciprocated as I should have. And ah so I'm so grateful for when friends stick with me because I value friendship, but I haven't always been that friend.
00:53:02
Speaker
So I'm just valuing and appreciating friendship more and more. and And at the same time, looking at how I do friendship and going, oh, yeah, please help me, God.
00:53:14
Speaker
But it's that thing, isn't it? You're like, friendship makes life better. You know Like good friends make better and they're worth doing and they're worth, sometimes you're like, oh, is it worth like, you know, going to make a new friend? And is it worth like slogging through and having this conversation I don't want to have? But like that it is worth it.
00:53:37
Speaker
but Even for all the awkwardness of like, oh, you saw this thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I just mentioned one more thing before I wobble on for too long. Yeah.
00:53:50
Speaker
Just that it is such a gift for me when people do allow space for a new friend because I've often been that new friend and, you know, the the person who's looking for friendship in a new place. And as I transition back to Australia shortly, I will be i will be moving to a new place and again I will be k needing friends and I know people are really busy so we don't want to kind of but not be greedy for their time but it's such a balm and such a highlight when you get to go for a walk with a friend and here in here in Argentina I have made a friend who's a fellow Australian in this city and whenever I've seen her it's just been such a gift
00:54:37
Speaker
And, you know, life's full for her. She's busy. But it's been such a kindness. And so i'm just very, very grateful for whenever people do kind of open up their life to create a bit of space.
00:54:51
Speaker
And, yeah. So I just want to be an encourager of, you know, if you can create a little bit of space for a new friend, what a gift that could be for someone else. I think it's so true. Like it's...
00:55:02
Speaker
You know not every single friendship is going to be like ride or die for forever. But I don't think that makes them any less special. Like I think sometimes like we don't.
00:55:14
Speaker
I interviewed another lady, oh, my goodness, this lady, Karen Masters, for season two. And she said something that I have just been thinking about ever since she said it. And she was like, we only get windows into each other's lives. Like we don't know for how long we have those people. Yeah.
00:55:30
Speaker
Like, you know, we assume, well, I'm not going to be friends with this person because they're going stick around. But like, that's just not true. You're like, well, yeah this person is here today and I'm here today. And, you know, we don't know when people are going to leave, but let's, but I can enjoy this person today and we can enjoy this conversation today.
00:55:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's really precious. Yes, that's right. Bring them with you. When you go for a walk to the supermarket, just bring that friend with you. They'll be they'll they'll be like really chuffed just to walk around and look at towns of tit cans of tinned tomatoes with you. My friend the other day you like...
00:56:05
Speaker
No, her washing machine was broken and she was like, can I come over to your house and do a load of laundry? And I was like, yeah. And then because she was at my house, she was like, do want me to hold you help you fold your laundry while we wait? And I was like, yeah. so why do This is a so we great. It's wonderful.
00:56:23
Speaker
yeah that's right so good it's pretty fair but it's true now is there someone that you would want to you i don't know that you would nominate for the podcast in terms of like someone who you think would be good to hear from someone who encourages you ahh who lives in this country town in new south wales and just really thankful for her insights and reflections And maybe also, oh gosh, this is hard, isn't it? I just want to mention a thousand people. I've got lots of people on my mind.
00:56:56
Speaker
My dear friend Celia. so Celia is is someone who, when I wrote an article about eulogies recently, i was also reflecting in one paragraph on the death of her father. And the gift it has been to know her family and to get to know her siblings And to really spend so much time with Celia and her own family. And I'm so grateful for her kindness to me and her listening ear and how she's been very gracious when she's allowed me to...
00:57:34
Speaker
dominate the the airwaves in many phone calls and many voice messages that we've spent of this past year and grateful for her prayers and just um the comfort she's comforting so she's such a comforting presence uh in my life so Yeah. I love that. Hey, you if you want 20 names, I can give you 20 names right now. We'll stop there.
00:58:01
Speaker
yeah We'll stop there. My goodness. Well, can I just say, I have just loved having you on the podcast. I could probably talk to you for like 10 podcasts. This has been absolutely delightful. Thank you for coming on. It's been really precious.
00:58:16
Speaker
Yeah. That's it from us, friends. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March to November from Christian women in Western Australia.
00:58:40
Speaker
If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys.