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When You're Angry You're the One to Fix Everything: An Interview with Jill
216 Plays4 months ago
Welcome to Season 2 of Stories I’d Tell You at Dinner! We are chatting with the delightful Jill, who is a GP and cross-cultural worker in the Middle East. She is also one of our writers here at Stories. We explore the cross-section of burnout, compassion fatigue, and secondary traumatic stress, but basically: what happens when you feel like you’re being dumped by a wave, angry that you’re the one to fix it all, as well as how Jill found a richer and deeper faith on the other side of it.
Jill grew up in Albany, studied in Perth & Sydney but now lives with three beautiful girl friends in a big ugly city in the Middle East. She helps lead a team doing community health programs and works as a GP with Syrian refugees. Learning Arabic was the hardest thing she’s undertaken. In her work she’s passionate about seeing the unseen people and helping Arab woman and teenagers learn emotional literacy and their God given identity. She enjoys textures, colours, photography and laughing at ridiculous ideas. This is a big year of transitions as she’s getting married in May, to an American!
In today's episode, we explore:
- The joys of living cross-culturally, chaotic home visits, and learning to crack jokes in a new culture and language.
- Growing up in a Christian family, becoming a Christian as a child, and always being the “good” one.
- Moving to the Middle East as a cross-cultural worker, GP and community health worker.
- Walking through a season of burnout and compassion fatigue and how she found a deeper and richer faith on the other side of it.
You can check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for free encouragement in your inbox on Wednesdays (from March-November) from local Christian women. One week you get essays and poetry, the next week you get a podcast episode.
If you want to send us compliments or constructive suggestions, flick me an email rebecca@storiesidtellyouatdinner.com.au
Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'After Dinner Mint'
00:00:00
Speaker
mate turned up and she'd been here maybe a month or two and i took her on a visit and i'd been here three years or so and this this new person said the greeting the the like salam alaikum she said that to the woman and the woman turns to me and says she is way better arabic than you
00:00:26
Speaker
This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
00:00:41
Speaker
It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
Meet Jill: GP and Cross-Cultural Worker
00:00:59
Speaker
Hi, I'm your host, Bec, and today I'm here with Jill, a GP and a cross-cultural worker in the Middle East. She's also one of our regular writers at Stories. So thanks for joining us, Jill. Hey, Bec.
00:01:11
Speaker
Thanks for having me. Thanks for welcoming me into your shed, friend. ah It's a very fancy shed. yeah Now tell us, for people who don't know you, like what does a typical week look for like for you as a GP, cross-cultural worker? Like what kind of things make up your week?
00:01:33
Speaker
I feel like it's a bit misleading because it's true I'm a doctor and I do work in a clinic here, but it's only one day a week. I co-lead a team of other expats and we live here in this big city and we're here to do community development work.
00:01:49
Speaker
and to love people well. So i end up doing other community health programs during the week, like a mental health trauma healing group for women and a boys club. And I help manage some Arab staff who do a boy, a girls club and exercise group for women And then I'm doing, you know, just the admin to do with leading a team of people and working for an NGO and visiting people. That's a big part of what we do, people that we meet in the clinic or who are in our programs or the families of of the kids in our programs.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah, so that's like my what my work week is like. So compared to when I first arrived, when I first, first few years of being here, I was doing more medical stuff or in people's homes. And now I have more admin stuff I have to do and meetings.
00:02:47
Speaker
So not my favorite thing to do, but it's like when you grow in responsibility, you have to end up doing things that enable other people. So it's a necessary is evil,
Life and Community in the Middle East
00:03:00
Speaker
isn't it? that this is where evil Yeah. To try and like build capacity.
00:03:04
Speaker
it's the cost of being a grown-up I feel like that's not the thing you want to do you have to do it enable other people um yeah and then because I live i live in this city that is pretty ugly so i It's not like when I'm not, you know, when I'm having downtime, then I will exercise in my bedroom or I love scrolling Instagram for inspiration and I love doing a bit of homemade art, painting, reading.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah, spending time. I live with three other girls, so hang yeah there's always something going on our house. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And how long have you lived with the ladies there? Because when you originally went, I'm just remembering from your newsletter, but you were in a bigger city before, right? And then it was a big thing where you went out to like this small of the dusty city, right? Like how long have you been in the dusty city?
00:04:08
Speaker
I've been here the last three years and I was seven years in the other biggest city. So I used to live for seven years. I just lived with one or two other girls, but the last three years I've lived with three other girls. We're sort of like a little hub because there's not many expats living in our city. So we all live together.
00:04:30
Speaker
And there's also that there's another family from Europe. and an older single gentleman who's widowed. So this there's three little hubs of us in this city.
00:04:44
Speaker
That's lovely. And are they the people that you serve with as well or are they here doing different things? Yeah, they're people I serve with. So i lead them and and we work together different community projects.
00:05:00
Speaker
And it's it's good because we are... We have a lot of, we have different functions in each other's lives. We have friendship with each other. We are work colleagues.
00:05:11
Speaker
We are ministry partners. We are kind of like family to each other when someone's sick. Yeah. All sorts of things. Yeah.
00:05:23
Speaker
That's really There's something really beautiful about that. That's like that. It's like a C.S. Lewis quote about friendship that I'll butcher, but it's that kind of thing that you're not looking at each other. You're kind of looking out and serving together. But in that, I love how it sounded like you've but you've become family.
00:05:38
Speaker
m Yeah. Like what, what helps as an adult to like set up like a household like that to run well? Because I can imagine that would be quite tricky when everyone's quite set in their ways. Like what's, yeah.
00:05:54
Speaker
We have a like a a secret, not a secret, but like that what is in our advantage, to our advantage in this setup is that three of us are Australian and we all come from similar theological cultural kind of backgrounds and studied at the same Bible college in Sydney. So i think having so much shared values and even some mutual friends That helps a lot.
00:06:26
Speaker
And so when we have the fourth member of our house moved in this year, she's American. So she, to her credit, she's been super gracious at... adapting to us and what routines were already established. She's been very sweet jumping into Australian culture. She got warned that it might be quite overwhelming to suddenly, because most Americans here are working and living with other Americans. there's a lot of Americans, you know, so for her to suddenly be like cold,
00:06:56
Speaker
cold, no Americans, just her and then all these Australians. Yeah. it But she's she started recording a dictionary of Australian and vocab and idioms and she's got like 500 words in it or something. It's quite amazing. Oh my gosh. The older gentleman in our team, he's a 70 year old Australian.
00:07:18
Speaker
full of idioms and he's always saying things and she and sometimes I'm like don't write that in your Australian truth I've never heard it before I think it's you he just made it up that's a thing to him that's not all of us yeah
00:07:37
Speaker
that's right 500 wow yeah so we've had to be like oh okay just be conscious that Just because we have, we've already decided where to put the appliances in the kitchen or what is the routines.
00:07:51
Speaker
of showers and and like we we have to make space for a new person with new things. It's been, it's stressful when there's crunch points on life. Like we keep running out of water because this whole country doesn't have enough water. And then sometimes it's a day, sometimes it's a week without water. So we have to go and buy bottled water and then just have like a little bird bath. And that can, that can be,
00:08:17
Speaker
Those weeks can be hard to live together because everyone's feeling a little bit, like, crunchy, bit irritated about, you know, the dishes pile can empathise. I don't have a bathroom right now. I can empathise.
00:08:31
Speaker
yeah It's really hard when these – so we were reflecting, oh, gosh, we might feel like we're doing okay at being godly until some of those things are removed and then – Oh, there it is. There's that grumpiness. There's that selfishness.
00:08:51
Speaker
No, you're like, it's so easy to be like, I'm super patient until someone like, yeah. yes For me, I'm like, it's children. Yeah. Sometimes I think as an overseas worker, you can feel like I've already um paid my dues. I've like given up enough by being here. so
00:09:11
Speaker
So i I don't know. It's bit strange. You can then forget No, life is hard and doesn't work like that.
Building Connections and Understanding
00:09:23
Speaker
You can't be like, oh, I've just, you know, like, but my quota, you're like, I've i've done the quota now, so like yeah i deserve it. Yeah, yeah. Man, that's brutal. Now, but i like I like the sense of it's setting up the rhythms, like having the shared values kind of like help you negotiate conflict, which is really – You know, all good families do, really. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's just easy to prioritise. Thank you for letting me just, like, not up how how does this work? I'm just, yeah. And it's also, it is helpful when you have work in common and because you share the victories together and you share the frustrations together. So that also helps you bond with each other, I think.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, definitely, like working and serving. together and living together. Yeah. So what are you doing when you feel like most like yourself, kind of like this is what I was made to do? Like what? I mean it's obviously not admin that makes you feel alive but like what?
00:10:32
Speaker
I think when I am either sitting in and a poor Arab family's home and it's really chaotic and they know me well enough and i know them well enough that they are relaxed and there's a lot of banter or playfulness around and you enjoy making little jokes and when you can get to the point in speaking arabic and understanding culture you can make jokes that they laugh at i mean it can be like you but when you feel like
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah, you feel welcome and alive. Like the other day was visiting, we went to visit this one woman and when we get there, there's like four women in in her living area with all of their children. It felt like a daycare. There was like about 25 kids under five years old.
00:11:26
Speaker
And we that happens a lot. You never know what will happen or who's there or what's going on. But one thing made me laugh, there was they always make tea in a teapot.
00:11:38
Speaker
and have it sitting there and then they pour it to you in a glass but this one kid who was probably two and a half or something he just decided he wanted a cup of tea so he behind his mom's back i could see him going he went to pick up the teapot but he he just held it on an angle and so he's walking he's walking halfway across this room and tea is just pouring out of the spout all over the floor and it would be a very sugary black tea that's what they drink all over the ground and this is like a totally common thing but it was comical because it was extreme, ah like a good pour all over the floor. And mum didn't, it was just like another part of the chaos and she didn't scream or get upset. She just went and got towel to and mop it up and, yeah, just things like that. i Like that's good when you can be enjoying people in their
00:12:37
Speaker
real environments and feeling like you're part of their life, you're part of their family. And then the and another very different context where I feel alive is when there'll be a woman like that but she she started to open her heart and tell you about the hard things in her life and I feel God give me compassion And I feel drawn to walk beside her in her suffering or to bring her comfort or to listen to see her because maybe she's never really felt like anyone's seen her before.
00:13:15
Speaker
The other day i went to a a session that we were running about inner healing and there there was a woman there who I've seen before at clinic as a patient and I remembered that she was one of the patients amongst many that has induced feelings of being annoyed within me because she's asking for things all the time.
00:13:39
Speaker
And then we sat and we had to do discussion time after this little session about inner healing and about lies people have spoken over us and and our emotional, relation the relational health, yeah, the health of our relationships. And she said, i find it really hard to express I love you to my daughters. just find it hard to like. I want to say it to them but I can't say it to them.
00:14:05
Speaker
And i asked her, what was it like in that home that you grew up in? And she said, she's just this local little Arab lady wearing a hijab. She said, well, when I was like four, my mum died and my dad remarried and my step-mum was really horrible.
00:14:24
Speaker
So I said to her, oh, well, that sounds like I don't know that you ever had love expressed to you And then she said, yeah, and then when i had children, a got older, had children, and my nine-year-old son was run over by a car in front of me and died, and my husband won't let me cry and be sad because he says I just... So I'm like, oh, my gosh, you you have suppressed a lot of grief in there. Yeah. And she had never really processed those things before.
00:14:58
Speaker
So every time that happens, I feel like what a privilege, like she's just opened this stuff up and there's all this pain and she hasn't been it hasn't been seen or received by anyone. And don't know, that makes me feel alive well.
00:15:15
Speaker
Yeah. so I mean, I know that you're a GP, but like the things you love sound
Journey of Faith and Personal Beliefs
00:15:21
Speaker
a lot like social social work, like therapists, like, you know there's a lot of like that woven in there that really like,
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, that real joy of seeing people where they are, getting being like, oh, this is the thing, this is the real thing, like we're really talking about it and here it is. and But I love even the other part about like that really, you know, those really wild home visits because it sounds like you've just done so much work to – Yeah, live cross-culturally. You're like, hey, I can get the joke and I can be a part of it now. Like I can imagine that would just take so long to get to that point.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah. It was a very painful first few years. I knew it would be hard to learn. i knew it would be hard to live cross-culturally and learn a language, but I think I discovered I was worse at it than everybody else at language learning, for example.
00:16:21
Speaker
so who I remember one. Oh, that would make me A new teammate turned up and she'd been here maybe a month or two and I took her on a visit and I'd been here three years or so.
00:16:36
Speaker
And this this new person said the greeting, that the like, salam alaikum, she said that, to the woman. And the woman turns to me and says, she is way better at Arabic than you. Yeah.
00:16:52
Speaker
it's
00:16:54
Speaker
stop it stop it i've been studying it for three years don't tell me she's better than me the arabs sound like yeah my very mom's family is spanish and they're just like that they're just like let me tell you exactly what i think you're like i didn't ask for your opinion yeah and they feel like the encourage the the way to encourage someone is to sort like shame them into doing like you're terrible There's this thing that say enek arabbi be be lasaneth giil they you speak Arabic with a heavy tongue, which I just want to speak Arabic so bad because there are so many Arabs at my son's school.
00:17:45
Speaker
But all I get like, and it's selfish, all I just want to do is because...
00:17:51
Speaker
Because I'm like a little white girl. I just want to talk Arabic and be like, hello, all I can say is like, salam, salam alaikum, that's it. like
00:18:00
Speaker
That's good though. they would They would appreciate anything because it shows that you're not running away from them and and thinking, oh, my gosh, I don't like Arabs, i' am scared of them. by so By even saying that, you're showing your posture is towards them and that would mean a great deal to them.
00:18:18
Speaker
Oh, good, because there was one lady who didn't speak any English and then she said her one English word, which was like, nice. think Such a bogan word. I know. I was like, she was fully covered, like a full Nick Webber, like a black one. And I was like, salam alaikum, and she was like, nice.
00:18:39
Speaker
That is so great. That deserves to be in a comedy show, a comedy sketch. I know. Really. Yeah. how How did you become a Christian, Jill? like I don't actually know the story.
00:18:50
Speaker
My parents became Christians as adults. So when i I was born into a family of believers. And i when I was seven, I remember deciding I went to Sunday school. I heard Jesus could live in my heart if I chose to invite him. So I did. And then I never like left my faith or or anything. But when I i went to Bethel,
00:19:15
Speaker
which is the Christian school in Albany. I went there to year 10 and then it only went to year 10. Had to switch across to Nash's, North Albany. And I'd never met kids who were not from Christian homes.
00:19:28
Speaker
And most of the kids in my classes were not from Christian homes and had never met a Christian. And there was a girl, that i got put next to in chemistry who never met a Christian was very curious. She was partially interested in the boys from Bethel.
00:19:44
Speaker
She was also interested in curious about Christianity. So used to have conversations and I was i had no idea what to how to explain what it was that I believed. So I said, oh, Christianity is kind of like Catholicism but without the candles and without Mary.
00:20:01
Speaker
And that didn't not illuminate anything to her. and and And I reflected on the fact that that probably wasn't a very clear answer. So i started reading John Dixon books and working out how to explain what I believe. And she became a believer after about a year. And i it was so exciting. And I thought, I want to be doing this all my life. I want to be sharing Jesus with people. So that was like a massive form formative time for me.
00:20:30
Speaker
I went to uni, went off to Perth, to UWA, was part of the Christian Union, which was very influential for me. I'd never read a whole book of the Bible as a book, you know, as opposed to a verse here, a verse there. So just understanding biblical theology, the whole sweep of the Bible. Being amongst like-minded, keen believers was exciting. And yeah, I think just as I hit bumps in life, like in my early twenty s i i think that's when I sort of discovered what it meant. It was like I'd had this gift all along, but I didn't really know what it was or why or how much I needed it until I bumped off against myself in life like having heartbreak when I was 21 and and moving out to live with other people and just realizing my sinfulness selfishness just realizing that I needed grace actually and there was a book I read called the ragamuffin gospel that really brought that home for me which is yeah yeah it's not just that you're saved through grace your whole Christian life is through grace
00:21:41
Speaker
I've never read that one, but it is it is so true. like And it is that thing of I love that the gospel in some ways is so simple that a child can accept it and you think, yeah, that's a really true and beautiful thing, but I love that as you go along it's not just an intellectual ascent, it's that I really do understand that I'm a sinner and I really, really need God's help every single day.
00:22:09
Speaker
to live the way he calls me to because he just, it's good and it's hard. Yeah. I think i I was a pretty good girl so it was confronting when I failed to be good or e ah oh I was disappointed in myself and that's when ye you need to believe that it's about grace, grace.
00:22:38
Speaker
your goodness or achievement, even in a Christian sense.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah. So who is someone who's like encouraged you or inspired you in your Christian walk and why?
00:22:55
Speaker
i have a friend who is um She lives in Sydney at the moment, but she's from Perth called Rowena.
00:23:06
Speaker
And I had heard about her a lot and then we sort of eventually met and we're very different. So I feel like it's this surprise friendship because she's very pragmatic and she's very smart and she's very witty and I'm like a bit more whimsical.
00:23:28
Speaker
But I don't feel... judged by her and i feel like we we can bring beauty into each other's lives. Like she is really good at being faithful to me and enjoying who I am even though I'm so different to her and also like speaking the hard word if needed and she accepts my more like, even my more whimsical feeling faith like it's a my faith would be a little bit more probably expressive or creative or shway like mildly mildly charismatic than his but like she has taken that on board and we can talk through these things together and i just didn't i just really admire that she's had a lot of knocks in life but she never gives up she never stops enduring and
00:24:26
Speaker
for the sake of Jesus and she is very willing to be weak and to rely on other people and receive people's help. and that takes So she's got humility and endurance.
00:24:41
Speaker
And, yeah, I lived with her for two years or so or three years before I came here.
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, and she was very generous. like she I was not sure where I was going to end up and I wanted to do a trip to look at different countries and teams and she said, don't pay rent for six months and just use the money and
Humor and Parenting Challenges
00:25:07
Speaker
on a trip away.
00:25:07
Speaker
even though she had a mortgage, she's just fully in it with me. Yeah. I think there's something really lovely about people when you come across them where –
00:25:22
Speaker
they're not trying, yeah, and particularly if you live together, like she's not trying to change you. You know, some people are like, I'm very like this and then, you know, everyone should be this way.
00:25:34
Speaker
but it sounds like she's just very encouraging of like, you know, you love Jesus but like in in the way that God made you to be and I just, I'm so here for it. Like not trying to change it or force it or anything like that.
00:25:48
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I just think that's a rare thing. It's a rare gift. Yeah. I think there is humility in in her being able to do that.
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah. And feelings maybe. it's Humility in in her personality but also humility in her faith because she it's not like every expression of faith has to be in the same, what you call it, the same shape as hers. Yeah.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, she's like, look, I'm a triangle and you are like a circle. And she's not like, you have to come over here and be a triangle because this is the way that, you know, all of the triangles are the best ones before God.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. that's That was a perfect analogy. I'm like, I don't know if this is brilliant or terrible. Like, I'm too tired to get them.
00:26:42
Speaker
But it's the best ones. You know, I write my best essays when I'm tired because it's when you're like, no, I, I cannot waffle right now because I really have to be very clear about what it is I'm saying because i I'm too tired to understand myself.
00:26:54
Speaker
That's what you were doing right now. like you're like, just need a really concrete way of explaining It was very clear. Yeah, I feel like I can explain like my children. Yeah, yeah, I was like, you can tell you're mother of young children.
00:27:08
Speaker
Do you know a place where they still have the windows? Do they still have the... Yes, yes, they do....shaping doors windows or whatever there? They do. They do.
00:27:19
Speaker
Oh, man. I'm like, I, before I move on, i have to tell you, i have learned that actually your brain does change after having small children because your brain takes over, like,
00:27:32
Speaker
i don't I don't even know. I don't even know. It takes over parts. where It's like, you don't need this. You don't need this other stuff that you knew. What you need is like, you know, I don't know, attunement and empathy or whatever, like the things that you're like, i don't really have much of that. But the body's like, we need to give you some space for this. So throw out other things
Dealing with Compassion Fatigue
00:27:48
Speaker
that you know. So now I go around and just don't know words anymore, which is fun. Yeah.
00:27:52
Speaker
That's okay. Yeah. yeah ah But unrelatedly, it's complete segue. We know whatever. Can you...
00:28:05
Speaker
could you please This is going to be very clear. We're up to point four, guys. Question four, ready. For those taking notes. Yes, for those who are like, I have my interview schedule, could you please tell me about a hard season you've walked through and how you've experienced God's faithfulness in that season?
00:28:24
Speaker
yeah so I can't be laughing while I ask you this. like it's yes
00:28:31
Speaker
But it's being human, which is what this question is about. Yeah. It's actually. ah ri Yeah. If you'd ask if you asked me any month of the year, any week of the year, I'd probably have different answers because there's always something. But...
00:28:48
Speaker
I think for for a little season now, feeling compassion fatigue in my work. And so I just thought, okay, how can I explain this?
00:29:01
Speaker
So I just want to throw some words at you. How do I know I'm feeling compassion fatigue? I mean, so since being overseas, I've learned about Enneagram personality types and I'm an Enneagram too, so I like to be helpful.
00:29:14
Speaker
And then you can you can get to the point of feeling like used by people or like no one's caring for my needs. So it's it's not a surprise that this would happen to someone in a healthcare profession. But it's it manifested as feeling like I'd get to my day off and I'd feel empty. I'd feel like when I don't have things I have to do,
00:29:38
Speaker
i don't know who I am and i feel just this kind of this wave of gross emotions would come over me and I'd feel like dumped by the wave and I'm just washed up on the shore and yeah, I would feel empty and I would, when I'd be in clinic or or getting messages from people, I'd be feeling like I had my defence shields up and I would get angry easily And angry having to feel like I have to over-function for people and I have to solve problems and be responsible.
00:30:12
Speaker
and and And then, yeah, being easily irritated when there's the inevitable interpersonal frictions or...
00:30:25
Speaker
that the responsibility that comes with leading when you have to make decisions and not everyone will like your decisions or whatever. So that was kind of how it manifest. And I would sit there and hear a sad story from someone which in the past would have moved me to compassion and instead I felt like Oh, yeah, everyone's everyone's story is like that. You know, everyone's story has domestic violence and poverty and this. Yeah, yeah, whatever.
00:30:57
Speaker
it's not a normal response. Yeah. So i think I think if I look big picture, how has God been faithful to me in that situation?
00:31:09
Speaker
I would say in his kindness, you know, it wasn't like I sat down and said, okay, God, we need a strategy, what to do about this. But in his kindness, he had already been bringing into my life different professional people with skills to help peel back layers for me. For example, like two years ago I had started seeing a spiritual director or having sessions with a spiritual director where we really focus on my experience of Jesus and interacting with him
00:31:42
Speaker
more in my emotions, in my imagination, asking him what's going on when I have these reactions. I had already been seeing a counselor and doing some EMDR with them.
00:31:55
Speaker
And I think
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah, my whole house has been on this whole thing of learning more about differentiation and family systems theory and anxiety within relational systems and all this stuff. It's all very fascinating. It's very fascinating. And yeah I think my – I kept kept having this image come to mind whenever I did sort of like imaginative prayer of but me putting my weary head on Jesus' chest and taking deep breaths.
00:32:28
Speaker
and um If I boiled it down to what helped me, it was something would shift inside me when I could be more attuned to the presence of Jesus and start to notice him.
00:32:43
Speaker
And just hearing him say, I'm with you, I'm for you I know you, you belong here with me, that's very, very helpful in all of this like tiredness, anger, anxiety kind of stuff going on inside me.
00:33:01
Speaker
And I really enjoy the passage in Zephaniah 3.17, which, okay, let me find it
00:33:15
Speaker
It's kind of, it's a classic, which you probably find on a poster somewhere. I tend to be cynical when I am tired and not doing well.
00:33:29
Speaker
So just waiting for my Bible app to load. So I think that when I hear that God loves me and, you know, that's the answer to everything, my cynical self says either that God's love is a bit lame and not that great or not that effective or that God's love is naive, like that it's just God loves you.
00:33:56
Speaker
Yeah. But what about in all the grossness of my heart or of what's going on? Yeah. If he really knew what I was like, he wouldn't actually like me.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So i i remember when I, I'm still waiting for my Bible app to load. When I was at Bible College, they taught us about with preaching, when you have a passage, you have to think what will your congregation be naturally thinking about this passage that is not true. You have to call it out.
00:34:32
Speaker
And so when I look at this passage, my natural instinct is to not believe it because I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, God loves me, about it but it's lame, his love. Yeah, yeah, God loves me, but he's naive. So this passage, I'm going to have to go off my memory.
00:34:47
Speaker
It's that one that says God rejoices over you with singing. i need to find a Bible. Have you got a Bible or working?
00:34:58
Speaker
Bible app. I'll look it up. Yeah. Zephaniah 317. It's like got this picture of God as a warrior, so he's not lame. Ooh, yeah. warrior God who's delighting over you with singing is a very strong, strong image. It sort of reminds me of like Lord of the Rings, you know, like this manly, strong rescuer coming in to delight over you. Aha, there it is.
00:35:26
Speaker
Yeah. Read it first. The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will quiet you by his love. This is He will exult over you with loud singing.
00:35:42
Speaker
m Yeah. yeah It's very beautiful. It's very... Don't you think it's like this picture of this strong, present, engaged, loving God, not this old fuddy-duddy God or no, fully present, fully capable, fully loving, delighting. It's pretty amazing.
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah. It's someone that you can, you're like, I can put this down because I trust that you, you have this. Yeah. Like, and I think this is the thing.
00:36:16
Speaker
what I love that you're describing and obviously it wouldn't have happened like overnight but it's that initially just getting really curious like what is going on here because you're not logically just you know what i mean you're going about your day and you're like why am I so angry like why why am I so angry about this or why do I previously people that I like to see I don't want to see or I have dread about seeing them like why all of a sudden something that I love to do I now hate and I can't bear it but actually underneath that is that when you really pick it apart is that like, oh, i'm I'm serving and no one sees me and I'm alone and I have to carry this alone and i really can't.
00:36:54
Speaker
So I love that like over time it's it's learning like are some of these things true and really looking at like scripture and being like, well, are they true? Are they not true? Like what things do I need need to kind of like weed out?
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah. because they're just stuff that like it feels urgent and true but sometimes they're just not yeah you put it well because I I was just even last week reflecting on it and again in a different way and how i was reflecting on how I seem if I was having an out-of-body experience if I look at how I am when I'm in clinic and I'm resentment is building up in me and people are asking all these things of me and demanding things of me then and and it's sort of like i've got these giant shoulder pads i feel like i've gotta like carry it all and like march through get it all sort of and then i imagine jesus turning up and he's looking at me seeing how i feel like have to carry this and he's drawn towards me in compassion and he's like
00:38:05
Speaker
no you can put that down. You don't have to over-function for those people. You don't have to over-function for me, which is what you just said. Like, God, I don't have to feel like I have to carry it and have to fix it and I have to over-function because he is the mighty warrior amongst us who loves us. And so it's, you know, in the end it's kind of down to faith in who God is and faith that God is God and I am not.
00:38:33
Speaker
I feel like that has been the thing that has genuinely changed my life is that sense of like, oh, God made me with limits. Like he made me with limits pre-fall, like for my good. You're like, oh, yeah, he doesn't need me to do all of this. Like he never needed me to do this.
00:38:55
Speaker
it Like the fact that I get to go along with it is great, but God doesn't need me to do any of his work. He can achieve what he wants. But, yeah you know, some people just kind of naturally accept that and some people just like yeah have to learn this the hard way.
00:39:12
Speaker
I don't know how it was for you, but I can definitely see it partly coming from a childhood where i my whole identity was shaped around what I achieved.
00:39:25
Speaker
Being good. So that drives me. that Then I know i am okay. if I'm needed, if I'm being useful, if people appreciate me, all that kind of stuff.
00:39:38
Speaker
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So I have this other image of like living like that is like, honestly, it's like riding a big bad wave at Trig or something and then you you know how they dump you those waves?
00:39:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And then you're like, or city beach, and then you're like, boom. And so once you're not useful or you've disappointed someone or you've reached your day off and you're just feeling done, you're just sitting there feeling stunned, like, what happened to me? i And instead yet I want to be like a tree that's like strong, deep-rooted, can bend in the breeze, it can be flexible. Flandish living water, yes. That's right. Solid and That's so crazy that you were telling me both of these things because I have been really stuck on, oh, if I'm putting my hope in something else, like if i if what I need to feel good is like every everyone is happy with me, like I'm kicking goals, people are happy with me.
00:40:36
Speaker
but you're like, that's really tenuous. Like I can never have everyone happy with me. It's like trying to hold on to the wind and you're like the wave. And I'm like, yeah, it's like the wave. Like it's the same. But there's a real sturdiness in being like, you know what?
00:40:49
Speaker
not everyone will always be happy with me, but if I'm like planted by the stream, I'm not going anywhere. It's so sturdy. You're like, God says I'm okay. And I, I can hold to that. Like that priority really just changes everything.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big change of identity really. o Yeah.
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah. I'm really great at having defense. I'm very like, spent a lot of time being cynical. It's delightful. I'm a delight. Yeah, I wouldn't have picked it. You do seem delightful, but you reach your limits.
00:41:28
Speaker
You do. You do. You're like, well, you know, you're designed to do everything. Yeah. yeah I love that. I just, I think it's something nice to just be like, I don't have to do all of these things just because they feel real, just because they feel urgent.
Lessons from Jesus' Ministry
00:41:47
Speaker
or important doesn't mean like if I line that up with like scripture you're like actually a lot of these things aren't true and God is not actually asking me to do these things I feel like I still can't believe how Jesus was i still can't believe that he didn't heal everyone he could have healed you know
00:42:11
Speaker
He healed someone and then he went back to the wilderness for like ages. yeah And he healed one person, you know, all those people with illness or disability lying at that pool.
00:42:23
Speaker
And he just went to that one guy, healed him and then left everyone else. Yeah. I'm like, gosh, i I feel like I have to help everyone. And I feel like if I don't,
00:42:36
Speaker
i'm failing at the task i've been sent here for i'm failing to love people well and because if i love them well then surely then something will happen spiritually inside them but i don't think that is what the bible represents no yeah yeah you're like well god calls you to be faithful he's like well what are you who's in front of you today and like love your neighbor but Yeah, i mean, it's just yeah, you look at Jesus and you're like, his life was crazy.
00:43:07
Speaker
I'm like, yeah, he just was like, let's go, you know, let let's come away with me for a while. We'll go to a quiet place. Like he was always just like sneaking off to pray. But he was also like really, really busy. But he just was 100% like clear on what he was meant to be doing all the time.
00:43:28
Speaker
m yeah i'm ah It was. Yeah. Must have come from all that, or number one being who he was, but all that time he spent praying, I suppose, that helped.
00:43:42
Speaker
Knowing what his father wanted him to do. o Yeah, all that time being like, my time's not yet come, it's not now, it's not now. And then he was like, it's now. And you know, he said, remember how he said, the poor will always be with you or something like that?
00:43:57
Speaker
Yes. didn't he He could have solved that. At least in his region. Didn't do that either. No. What he was most concerned about is like, yeah, i mean, all the miracles just pointed to like God's kingdom is coming.
00:44:15
Speaker
But they weren't like, he wasn't there to heal everyone. It was to point to like the spiritual reality. But, yeah. And investing in a limited number of people.
00:44:30
Speaker
Yes. And think, What? So he, like, invested in 12 guys and those 12 guys, like, changed the world. Like, he didn't start, like, you know, a program and, like, this online program and DM me and I'll, like, send you the link. He... Yeah. Yeah, you're like, loving people is just, like, completely inefficient.
00:44:49
Speaker
And it just takes a long time and it takes a lot longer than what you think. And, like, people change really slowly and we change really slowly and we're much more sinful than we ever considered. Like... Mm-hmm.
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have in our city there's a million people and we have 13 boys in our boys club. So we've been thinking about that. Like it feels like a drop in the ocean but, oh, well, similar to Jesus. But that's how you think it's the mustard seed. You're like his kingdom just makes no sense. It's completely upside down. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:29
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate all those parables about yeast and about things growing overnight when the farmer's asleep, the mustard seed growing to be this huge tree.
00:45:44
Speaker
It's very not logical and disproportionate, the way good God brings fruit, which is cool.
00:45:55
Speaker
What is a word of encouragement you could offer to a woman? Like, because we, you know, we do, like Christians are, you know, well represented in like healthcare, missions work, there you know, social work, nursing, all that kind of stuff. We love to help people. Like, what's a word of encouragement you could offer to a woman listening who might be walking like a similar season of like compassion fatigue, burnout. Like, it's just really like these things that I love done now.
00:46:21
Speaker
don't enjoy yeah and I'm not a person that I feel like I recognise right now. Like what's, yeah you know I mean? Like what's a word of encouragement you could offer to her? o think there is a way back and I think that that image of either a, what did you say? oh In the wind or or a dumping wave, if that's how you feel.
00:46:44
Speaker
Jesus calls us to be a well deep-rooted tree and so I just think that's a more hopeful image to think of who am i because when i I, did feel like I was dumped by a wave and I was empty but that is not true of who I am. I am well-rooted tree. It's just that I've lost, wasn't feeling anymore.
00:47:11
Speaker
And I would say it's life is too short to not work on growing and so if you're in the middle of a hard season like that, go and find a mentor or talk to a friend or go and pay for a counselor or pay for a spiritual director, like go and get some good input because my friends who have done that, who have invested in intentional growth, input from people, have discovered these beautiful new seasons of their life and and hard and painful things have become beautiful things.
00:47:48
Speaker
and And obviously we see that it's possible to not do that. It's possible to stay very stuck with, in unhealthy patterns of relating that affects everybody around you. And I think that that's dumb. So, you know, and not meant to be discouraging if you're struggling, but what I mean is take, you have all the permission, I give you all the permission to use resources and and give yourself space and wise input and wise counsel to help reflect on what's going on underneath, why have I got to this point kind of thing.
00:48:23
Speaker
Yeah. yeah can answer isn't it The answer isn't you're a terrible person. No, the answer is not that you're a terrible person, but pay attention that something is going on. Your body and your brain is trying to tell you something.
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah. And go and light a candle. I've really enjoyed that. Sometimes when you're in these states, I feel like you've lost touch with with just simple mindful being presentness and so now every time I go to have a quiet time or whatever read I light a candle and sometimes I'm feeling like kind of numb and overwhelmed and so I just literally look at the flame the candle for a while and yeah I think that's kind of what the spirit is like it's alive and it's dynamic it's moving shape it's warm it's got energy and it really helps focus me I do that for a few minutes and then I can like engage a bit better with what I'm trying to do yeah I like that it's getting away from just like the intellectuals
00:49:28
Speaker
then Yeah. really love doing stuff, imaginative prayer stuff. Like there's some really cool stuff from Catholics online where they are reading like a a story from the Gospels and they're asking you to imagine you're in the story and what you feel and how what you would say to Jesus. And I find that super powerful.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah. And there's like some really fascinating stuff like in the there's like imagery re-scripting protocols that they do like with trauma. So like MDR I love is awesome. And they also do imagery re-scripting. And what they find is like the brain can't really distinguish between like I'm there or I'm imagining it. Like, yeah. So I think there's something really nice that we don't really quite understand yet. So I like.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. if you like if you have If someone has compassion fatigue or feels like they don't know who they are anymore, they might be a person who is quite sensitive and emotional and connects with people. And so I think that using these creative forms of connecting with God are a gift and I didn't grow up hearing about them. Kirk Thompson has a really cool website where you can, he's got a collection of images or mis sound clip music clips that
00:50:53
Speaker
and you can look at one depending on what you how you're feeling and then it has some questions prompts and and always i feel like something powerful comes out of that and doing this yeah these imaginative entering the gospel stories all these things are super cool engaging your right side of the brain i don't know i'm like no left side the brain whichever one it is but well
00:51:23
Speaker
I'm like, one us should know. And like, it's not me. I don't remember. I just have been reading a book called The Other Half of Church. It's about that. It's about using your whole brain.
00:51:36
Speaker
And that character formation happens more on the, but is it the right side of the brain? The creative side. That's the side where character formation happens. So if we just tell people to read and grow in knowledge,
00:51:50
Speaker
then um it won't affect them at a deep character level actually. It's that, isn't it? It's the like you want to, you don't want to know so much about God that then you, but it doesn't impact like your life. It's that real slow like praying and obeying it into your life.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Encounter the truth kind of thing. Okay. Yeah. So let's see. The right is the creative side. Yes, there we go. So if the right side is not engaged, we're not going to have real deep transformation.
00:52:31
Speaker
So we have to get beyond just giving people knowledge and stuff which is on the left side.
Personal Transformation and Faith
00:52:35
Speaker
Now that is really interesting. I think, like I actually think that's the thing I'm going to take away from this is like that real sense of,
00:52:48
Speaker
you know there's that image of you at the start like with the compassion fatigue well actually no it's that sense of like I'm a really good girl you know I am a good girl and I've always been good and I achieve and I do things and I make people happy and that works until a point where you're so overburdened and exhausted
00:53:08
Speaker
but that's not the end of the story I love that like it's that faith that is much more rich and deep than you ever imagined and you're like oh it's not you know like yeah there's this is rich imaginative creative beautiful inheritance that you get to enjoy and like also a god who is big enough to hold and carry you in all of that and like yeah but it's worth that kind of wrestle to tease out all the things that aren't actually true
00:53:43
Speaker
m Yeah, to be like, I'm going to be more deeply rooted and it's going to cost me and it's going to hurt. but where you've ended up is so much richer than where you were.
00:53:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So it is sort of, like you said, yeah, it's a coming to more deeper experience of and relying on the gospel So all along it's been like ive but I assent to it and am convicted of it and I follow it. But actually, you know, I can see my whole life I could get away with to some degree thinking I was a little bit like God, you know, you know I could be good and perfect and la, la, la, but like, the me oh, no, I'm not. And then, there's it like you said, there's this richness.
00:54:39
Speaker
Of being a human and letting God be God. Yeah. Yeah, you're like, it's just, you know, my second midget has to die. That's fine. That's right.
00:54:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I'm fine with that. It's cool, cool, cool, cool. Nice. Who do you nominate for this next? Like, is there, like, a woman who encourages you who you think would be good to hear from?
00:55:05
Speaker
My nomination is Bloodwyn. Great name, Blodwin. She's at least 95. Hey, awesome. I know. She's like the sharpest person I know. like she's so smart, so witty, and she was she lived in Malaysia and Hong Kong for a long time when she had young children as a worker.
00:55:34
Speaker
And she just really encouraged me in my journey of getting here and she's very astute. Like
00:55:46
Speaker
she, sometimes she says to me a funny thing. She says, you know, a smart people, we can we can just get really anxious sometimes because we think a lot. then She's just right really funny and really wise and because she's 95, like,
00:56:06
Speaker
Her health is not always solid, so um I'm not sure if she'd be up for a podcast episode, but I could check in. But I really value her. And when she was in her eighty s her and her friends, late 80s probably, well, maybe mid-80s, her and her friends were at my church. They decided they needed to leave our church, which was a big, well well-established church, to go to a small church in then in their suburb, which needed more support in order to be more missional.
00:56:42
Speaker
They were like, we need to do this, make this move. So three of them moved across to do that. i just love this and like we have have some like i coordinate like a play group right and we just have these beautiful older ladies and i remember ringing and being like hey you know we need help with like vacuuming and we you know we we need help with playgroup but you know i also just want to like get to know you like i'm in a season of life where i realize i need wisdom but i like i don't have it and i'm always wrangling my children and so these like lovely ladies have come along
00:57:17
Speaker
And they're just like just similar. we You think it would be easy to cruise in that season of life to be like, I'm done. I'm done enough. Like, but You see, they come along and they vacuum and they chat to mums and they make coffees and they're, like, funny and sassy and just, like, so great. So I love that these ladies are like, okay, they need to be more missional. Like, off we go. Like, it's just, want to be like that when I'm old. Like, that's just so cool. Yeah, yeah it's amazing.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. That's awesome. yeah Well, I'm going to take that away. I'm like, it's it's worth the fight to have a richer a richer faith I just, I love it, man. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and just sharing so thoughtfully
Conclusion and Newsletter Promotion
00:58:05
Speaker
emotionally. i don't know.
00:58:10
Speaker
Thank you for being for being the brains and the brawn behind this whole creative ministry. And encouraging us in honour.
00:58:27
Speaker
I'm having a great time. i'm I'm thrilled that anyone has come along with me.
00:58:34
Speaker
That's it from us, friends. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March later to November from Christian Women in Western Australia.
00:58:55
Speaker
If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys.