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When Death Triggers Doubt: An Interview with Crystal Heydenrych
121 Plays1 month ago
Today’s interview is with Crystal Heydenrych, who is a botanist and mother of two. Crystal described the doubts that plagued her after her mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and died four months later. I really appreciated Crystal’s ability to articulate her fears that God did not see her suffering and she was ultimately alone. She explained how she threw herself into researching the resurrection. She explains how God comforted her through reason, when her emotions were overwhelming.
In today’s episode, we explore:
- Growing up in South Africa and coming to faith through the faith of her mother, aunt, and grandmother.
- The deepening of her faith whilst at university and going to Bible studies where her faith became her own.
- The death of her close friend’s father the night before her wedding and the loss of her own mother to ovarian cancer and the period of doubt that ensued after these losses.
- How God comforted her through reason, the robust evidence of the resurrection and the ultimate hope that God sees and she is not alone.
You can check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the episode.
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If you want to send us compliments or constructive suggestions, get in touch at rebecca@storiesidtellyouatdinner.com.au.
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Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
Doubts and Clarity in Faith
00:00:00
Speaker
But it's so simple, but it really struck me. He said, if Jesus was truly really raised from the dead, then eventually everything is going to be all right.
00:00:11
Speaker
And so i remember reading that. Maybe I heard it. can't remember. Yeah. And I spent some time focusing on the resurrection then because then I was like, how do I? I'm not quite sure. i' I'm feeling doubtful about everything. And I'm like, what about the resurrection? Do I doubt this too? And so in that time, I thought a good use of my time would be to spend time focusing on the resurrection.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:46
Speaker
This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
00:01:01
Speaker
It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
Introducing Crystal Haydenwick
00:01:16
Speaker
I'm Bec and today I'm here with Crystal Haydenwick. Hey Crystal. Hey Bec, thanks for having me on. Hi. So Crystal, can you tell us what does a typical week look like for you? What kind of things make up your week?
00:01:33
Speaker
I work on a Monday and Tuesday as a botanist for an environmental consultancy. And then the rest of the week, I am home with my three-year-old and I'm available to my two children. Yeah, that makes up my week.
00:01:52
Speaker
Oh, lovely, lovely. i I've never met a botanist before. Like, how do you how do you even get into botany?
Journey to Botany
00:02:01
Speaker
That that just sounds really cool. ah Yeah, I think it's cool. I do like enjoy my job. i studied i studied botany.
00:02:10
Speaker
i knew my cousin was in environmental science. And so I had some idea of what your career options could be. And so I suppose that inspired me. And then actually started BSc wanting to be a zoologist.
00:02:29
Speaker
And but then and didn't it didn't even enjoy botany, but somehow it grew on me, pun intended. And now I really love it. ah wow. And like, what?
Environmental Consulting Work
00:02:41
Speaker
Sorry, explain like I'm five. What what does a botanist do? Like it's it's about plants, isn't it Yes, that's right. Yes. So botanists can do many things. i work as an environmental environment in environmental consulting. And so...
00:02:55
Speaker
our team runs botanical surveys of the flora and vegetation ahead of development. ah So, and and we so we we service the mining industry, so, um and we do some re renewable energy. And so we would go out and map and identify all of the flora and vegetation in an area ahead of development and then that'll inform where they would place development or even in infrastructure and if they even would go ahead so and then my role specifically i just I write the botanical write the reports and identify the plants and I used to do the field work but I don't do that now that I've got kiddos yes oh no that that makes a lot of sense like I know some people who do some
00:03:48
Speaker
They do all the seed picking, yeah, because you work out like what is there before they dig it up and then they try and revegetate when it's done. Is that, that's sweet. but Yeah, that's right. And so i suppose a rehabilitation specialist would do the after part. Yeah. And that's not, we'll, I'll just, I'm more involved the front end. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:11
Speaker
Oh, excellent. Oh, that's really cool.
00:04:15
Speaker
Oh, that's awesome, man. Now, I don't know if these are botany related, but I do have
Interests in Historical Fiction
00:04:21
Speaker
questions. Can you tell me, like, what is, like, your favourite book or movie or podcast recently? I'm always looking for recommendations.
00:04:30
Speaker
Oh, um I don't think I have a favourite book, but I think I have a genre I've worked out, and that is historical fiction in World War II, set in World War II.
00:04:46
Speaker
I do. I love it. what have I read lately? i really enjoyed All the Light You Cannot See. think I just love, yes, that's that's my genre. And then a podcast I've been listening to lately and love is The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God.
00:05:11
Speaker
Ooh. There's a book. I've never heard that. I recommend it. There's a book too by Justin Briley and he just talks to a bunch of, i suppose, intellectuals and all sorts of people really. And his idea, well, i don't know if it's his idea, but the idea is that people are more becoming more increasingly more interested in the Christian faith at the moment. And whether or not that's true, i don't even know, but I enjoy listening to the conversations.
00:05:45
Speaker
That's so cool. I've never even heard of that one before. i can share it with you. Yeah, have teeth please do. I love that you have like a genre. like like Because I would say like I like historical fiction, but I kind of got burned out on like historical fiction in World War II. So I picked up like All the Light We Cannot See and I was like, I don't know if I can be bothered going here. But like is it is it good?
00:06:11
Speaker
Oh, I thought it was a great read, Gabe.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yes. well what what did it what didn't you like about it? Was it too too dark? No, I had literally just picked up the cover and I think because I had read a lot of a lot of fiction set in World War II that I think I like read so much that I was like, I'm done. No more World War II books. It's actually so much, hey, and sometimes I'll read something else.
00:06:38
Speaker
um because I chat a asked ChatGPT, I gave a list of the books that I'd read recently and I said that i I wanted to read something similar but maybe not World War ii And then I read a book and I got to page 90 and the scene changed and it was World War II again.
00:06:59
Speaker
what was like it found me. but But, like themit you like, you asked GPT. You're like, you had one job. must have not been clear with my prompt. ah
00:07:15
Speaker
Why are you betraying me? I do have one. I have one historical fiction recommendation that if you want something that's not World War Yeah. Yeah. I read Pachinko a couple of years ago. And it's about, it's like a,
00:07:31
Speaker
oh, it's like a three-generational saga of, like, these Korean family who moved to Japan and they run these, like, gambling parlours, but the Japanese, like, really hate the Koreans.
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, and it's just, it's fascinating and it's beautiful and it was just, like, a part of history that I had no idea about. yeah I wouldn't. Oh, I'm going to write that down.
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. I'm looking for a good book, hey I don't know if it touches on World War II. I can't. It doesn't have to. I don't chase World War II books. I think it's just if I think of the books I've read lately and enjoyed, there's this common common thread.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yes. Books about World War II just find you. ah So as a bit of a segue, but, you know, I feel like Justin Briley is like a good point
Growth in Christian Faith
00:08:25
Speaker
to jump off from. But like how how did you become a Christian?
00:08:29
Speaker
So I grew up, my mom was a Christian and my auntie and my granny were really involved in my life. And they, well, my auntie is still with us and my granny was a Christian too And so i was really influenced by them. and I think when I went to university, met a group of friends through my cousins and we all went to church together And it was just really great teaching. And I think it was a special time for our group of friends. We went to Bible study together and that was when the gospel really made the most sense to me. I remember that being quite a like an important point in my in my my life and my spiritual walk.
00:09:23
Speaker
So... Yes, I think that's how i became a Christian, and sort of over my life and particularly yeah at but that point in university.
00:09:35
Speaker
i love that. I love that it's often, you know, when you hear from people who have those you know Christian homes, you're like, it's that lovely slow process where you you know a little bit and you know a little bit. But I love that, yeah, it sounds like at that point it really,
00:09:53
Speaker
became your own where like, I'm going really wrestle with like some of those questions. Yes. Yes. It's funny how you can read your Bible for, i suppose, many years, but um I don't think I fully understood who Jesus was and how much he'd done for us and how undeserving we are. And I think it all just made sense for me at that point in my life.
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That is funny. I know you can sometimes turn to a page in the Bible and just be like, oh, I've never seen that before. I never realized like, and never you realized that. And I've been just walking past it my entire life, you know.
00:10:37
Speaker
You're right. That was my experience for sure. Yeah. who would you say is someone who's like encouraged or inspired you in your Christian walk and why? Yeah.
00:10:48
Speaker
That's an easy question for me to answer. It's my auntie. She's just, um so she's in her 70s now and she lives in South Africa where I'm originally from.
00:10:59
Speaker
But we talk weekly. She's just um always been such a wonderful example of faithful Christian living. And I think always, she always pursued a relationship with me and with the intention of of sort of being a light to me of of of the gospel. And she she shared the truth of Jesus with me my whole life and connected me with youth groups and and prayed for me. and so and And also just observing her life. I've watched her forgive and I've watched her serve and pursue relationships with people. I think that's the thing for me is the way she pursues relationships with people and is very thoughtful and caring.
00:11:50
Speaker
um so yes, my auntie. I love that. I love that, like, the things that you're saying – You know, I think we think to kind of encourage others, you know, i like, oh, i must I have to be doing, know, all these really big things. But I love that, like, the image for her. is that one of, like, steadfastness where she's been this, like, consistent presence in your life? like And, you know, there's all those little things, like, I'm going to, you know, get you along to youth group. I'm going to play with you. i'm going to, like, really take an interest in your life.
00:12:27
Speaker
like That's right. Yes. And and i think I think it's a lesson to me that she was so invested in my life. I wasn't her daughter. you know I wasn't her responsibility. And it makes me think about children in my life too. um My friends, kids, my niece.
00:12:48
Speaker
You can be such a great influence in someone's life, even if you're not there you know their parents living with them. Yeah. I think, yeah, from the adult side of it, like, yeah, I'm thinking of that with my kids and i'm like, it does take a real intentionality about it to, speak into kids' lives and be one of those people. And it it is actually quite, it's quite hard to do.
00:13:16
Speaker
if you're not the parent. Yes, and you really have to sort of pursue, pursue relationships and be intentional I love that. don't think I'm particularly good at it, but want to do better. Nor even though I've had this great example.
00:13:34
Speaker
nor am i Something to strive for Yeah, yeah, definitely. Could you talk me through, like, what...
00:13:46
Speaker
What was like a hard season you've walked through and kind of like running parallel to that? Like how did you experience God's faithfulness to you in that season?
Coping with Loss and Doubt
00:13:57
Speaker
Yeah, so I think a hard season for me, if I have to pick one,
00:14:03
Speaker
I think what comes to mind immediately is my mom's passing. So my mom was diagnosed with cancer in 2019 and passed in early 2020.
00:14:14
Speaker
And that was very, as you can imagine, shocking and a very hard time. and It had also happened, um it was a strange year because few months before that, a really good friend of mine, just the night before her wedding, her dad was in a car accident and he passed the night before her wedding. And so this happened to my dear friend and then my mum got sick and passed quite quickly.
00:14:50
Speaker
oh So just in a matter of months, these tragedies are like how long between the two events or from when she got sick? um Yeah, from when your mum got sick to when she died.
00:15:04
Speaker
think it was like four to five months. and So she must have been diagnosed quite late like stage four. Yeah, so it's what it was ovarian cancer and sometimes I think it is like a hidden one. Yeah. where you you By the time you get symptoms, sometimes it can be quite progressed. So yes, this was a really difficult time for me and I think the challenge at that time was i
00:15:36
Speaker
i knew what I believed about suffering and God's goodness and that that Jesus has conquered um death and sin, and that but that we're in this in-between time and that everything will be right eventually.
00:15:55
Speaker
But somehow when this when I experienced these significant tragedies close to home, i experienced doubt about some of the the foundations of what I believed in the Christian faith.
00:16:11
Speaker
yeah Especially, i think that can happen when you're praying, you know, sort of desperately that God would change the outcome, but then it doesn't work out that way.
Reaffirming Faith Through Resurrection
00:16:21
Speaker
and so i started asking if God was listening to us and and there in our suffering. And then um I really enjoy listening to Tim Keller's sermons and i and reading his books. I love Tim Keller.
00:16:38
Speaker
I can't remember where this quote came from. um it could have been sermon on anxiety, but I can't remember. But it's so simple, but it really struck me. He said, if Jesus was truly really raised from the dead, then eventually everything is going to be all right.
00:16:58
Speaker
And so i remember reading that. Maybe I heard it. can't remember. Yeah. And I spent some time focusing on the resurrection then because then I was like, how do I, I'm not quite sure. i i'm feeling doubtful about everything. And I'm like, what about the resurrection? Do I doubt this too?
00:17:21
Speaker
um And so in that time, i thought a good use of my time would be to spend time focusing on the resurrection. And so I read some books and,
00:17:34
Speaker
described the historical evidence um for the resurrection. One of those was Can We Trust the Gospels um by Peter Williams, Peter J. Williams.
00:17:47
Speaker
And then there's another one, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses um by Richard Wolcombe. I've never heard that. I can share. don't if it's worth yeah are they No, please do know Please Absolutely. Please send me all your book links. I would love to put them in the show notes. Yeah. yeah And listened to a few podcasts, read a few books, spent some time in the world, was really questioning a lot of the things I'd believed.
00:18:14
Speaker
But think this personal suffering, I think it was just too close to home. And even though I was aware of suffering all around the world, when it happened to me on this, you know, to this extent, I just had these questions.
00:18:32
Speaker
And so I felt of a bit shaken. Because it was almost like, i mean, from what I'm hearing, you're like, yeah, the suffering was out in the world. But then when it hit home, you were very questioning like,
00:18:43
Speaker
is god yeah Is God there? Does he see me? Like, yeah, am I alone in this? Like, you know, was that the that was the real crux of it, right? Or oh did I not get that right? No, you' you've absolutely got that right. And so, you know, if as a Christian, you believe these things, you know, i had believed these things for a long time. And then suddenly I felt a bit, I felt very shaken in my grief asking those questions.
00:19:15
Speaker
And I actually don't, I didn't really speak to many of my friends about it. chatted with my husband about it quite often. I felt like I didn't want to discourage people.
00:19:28
Speaker
a lot of my friends at the time and even now are just in the throes of of early motherhood and we're struggling to find enough time to to to read our bibles and and even You know, we're just trying to feed people.
00:19:46
Speaker
and And so i i I felt like I didn't want to to to worry people, I guess. I mean, now that I think about it, maybe it was a bit silly, but I um i kind of dealt with this a bit privately. did speak to Amy Stouffer. Amy Stouffer kind of, I think, once about it.
00:20:08
Speaker
But anyway, so this was my experience and I thought it would be a good use of time and and ah like a good idea to to look at historical evidence for the resurrection. And I think there was a gap in my apologetic knowledge and I hadn't really organized my thoughts about this.
Resurrection as Faith's Foundation
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And so um evidence that was encouraging to me Like the basic fact that Jesus was crucified.
00:20:35
Speaker
There are some things about the crucifixion and the resurrection that all historical evidence is aligned Even secular historians at the time are going to agree that he was crucified and that the tomb was empty.
00:20:53
Speaker
That the first report was by a woman whose testimony wasn't really credible at the time from a legal and social perspective. Many people claim to have seen the risen Jesus in various locations, some in groups, some individuals.
00:21:09
Speaker
And then the way that it transformed the lives of his followers and that they were willing to die. And many of them did die for the claim that Jesus had died had had risen from the dead.
00:21:22
Speaker
And so I think maybe many Christians are aware of these pieces of evidence. I had not organized my thoughts about it. But found the evidence so compelling.
00:21:37
Speaker
was that there? Oh, yeah, sorry. It was almost like, yeah, like prior to that, like they there was it sounds like there wasn't really that need to. You were like, yeah, sure, like Jason's been resurrected, sure. But it almost sounded like that was like the hinge point of your whole argument where you were like, if he's not resurrected, like,
00:21:57
Speaker
I'm not only still in my sins, but actually like, you know, maybe he's not even there. Maybe this whole thing doesn't even exist and I am alone. Like that became, you know, the perfect point for Yes, that was the line of thinking. Yes. In my grief.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah. And so organising my thoughts about around the resurrection and spending time reading about things The good arguments about some of the oppositions to the Christian faith was really helpful for me in that time. Yeah. And then there's also the human experience that that we do long for more.
00:22:43
Speaker
Everybody does long for more than just this life. And so if you believe in the idea of God creating the universe, then following on from that, that Jesus died and rose again, to me feels reasonable.
00:22:58
Speaker
So yes, I think that was the, think that's what how God was kind to me and and how he was with me in this this time of doubt. I think that he drew me to himself through through this experience. And so although doubt is my struggle, organizing my thoughts about Jesus has brought a lot of comfort and has settled my anxieties.
00:23:28
Speaker
And so think that God can you use reason to draw you to himself, you know. and so that original question, just coming back to that,
00:23:40
Speaker
coming back to suffering and tragedy and that statement that I read where Tim Keller says, if Jesus did rise from the dead, then everything's going to be okay.
00:23:51
Speaker
I found this overview of that quote of his on the interweb and I think it's put very well. so It highlights that the resurrection of Jesus is the cornerstone of Christian hope and assurance, suggesting that if this central event of Christian belief is true, then everything else, including the difficulties and challenges of life and death, can be faced with confidence and a sense of ultimate hope.
00:24:23
Speaker
And I really do feel that way. Five years after my mom's passings, I don't feel that sense of, um I don't feel it as unsettled. And I think doubt is a struggle, but I think holding on to that, if you're going to hold on to one thing when it's um kind of um distracting,
00:24:46
Speaker
the hope that Jesus did rise again means that everything's going to be okay.
Faith and Rational Exploration
00:24:50
Speaker
And I think that that was God's kindness to me, teaching me that. ah I really love that. Like I think,
00:24:59
Speaker
I mean, what's what's fascinating to me, like kind of what I heard was that sense of, you know, everything feels so out of control and this grief is out of control and, you know, and am I ultimately, you know, cast adrift?
00:25:13
Speaker
And what I love is that you kind of drill down into that argument and those beliefs be like, okay, well, is is there something here to hold on to? Is there something when everything feels so uncertain that I can,
00:25:27
Speaker
you know, really hold on to. And I love it in reason that's what you found where you're like, I don't have to trust in, you know, in my emotions, you know, there's, you know there's grief and there is that like, you know, you just loved your mum and you loved your friend's dad and you love your friends and, you know, grief is a part of life. But I love that in that there's also,
00:25:55
Speaker
But what can I ultimately hope in and hold on to that is independent of how I feel right now? And that's almost like a guiding star that kind of got you through the other side of that.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yes, that's right. That's right. And I think at the time, everything felt quite distracting and overwhelming kind to kind of Yeah, just now just being able to, I think organizing my thoughts.
00:26:25
Speaker
It's funny because it is you're right, it's like a reason was was what I needed. and but i And I think that's such a gift. I think that God answered my prayers in that way, you know.
00:26:37
Speaker
um and so so holding, so yeah, so what what i was going to say was just when it is, so I think grief can be very, it's just there are so many thoughts and feelings.
00:26:49
Speaker
And it's all very distracting. And so you need an anchor, you know, something to hold on to And I love that. I could just have this one sentence in my head. i could just say this to myself and I can hold on to that. and it And it can give me assurance because it's true And it's it's it's a real anchor.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yes, it's that. I feel like that's a verse or maybe I've just heard it in a song, but, you know, it's like this faith is an anchor for your soul. And I don't know if that is a Bible verse or if I'm just making that up. but like No, I think it is. i think I've seen it since.
00:27:25
Speaker
You know how like Christian merchandise or something, I've seen that verse somewhere with an anchor, like a picture. Yes, I know. it I know. I was like, someone has put this on a mug somewhere and there is like a picture of a mug with an anchor and you're like, we've had this faith. There's like an anchor for the soul. I don't know. I'm like, i probably butchering it. No, that's a good verse to bring to mind. Yes.
00:27:46
Speaker
Yeah. And for you, it's just like that, that one point of a callusomy where you're like, that's it. That's the thing. That's the thing that I need to like latch onto right now. Yeah, when everything else is all over the place.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And it's really been encouraging.
Advice for the Grieving
00:28:04
Speaker
I've been being just in the background searching for the verse. So Hebrews 6.19, it says, we have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.
00:28:15
Speaker
it enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain. Yes, you see, you're right, Hebrews 6.19.
00:28:25
Speaker
I shouldn't have like You were like quoting this beautiful verse and I'm in the background fist pumping, but no that is beautiful. I really love that.
00:28:37
Speaker
um So if we're thinking about like, you know, maybe there are some ladies who would be listening, who would be walking you through like a fresh season of grief, like what what is a word of encouragement you can offer um to someone listening who might be you know, in that season of being of grief but also feeling like I am alone and maybe maybe there is no one in there on the other side? Like what's an encouragement you could offer to her e um um um I think in ah think one is to don't stop praying and asking God to walk you through the season and to
00:29:21
Speaker
calm those doubts and to reveal his truth to you.
00:29:27
Speaker
And then hold on to the, I think if you're going to focus on anything in this life even, especially in times of trial, it is, it's Jesus and the resurrection. It's that he did come and die and and rose again. And so I think focusing on it is a good idea.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah. So it's, yeah, your your encouragement is to like, to lean into it. You're like, if, you know, if he's God and he's there, he's big enough to hold those doubts and walk you through it.
00:30:00
Speaker
But also, it's yeah, it's, you know, it's a faith that you can reason with. Like it is. Yes. Yeah. it it Like you can wrestle with it and look at it and it's robust enough that you can.
00:30:18
Speaker
You're right. and And interestingly, you know, so I've had this experience of just the grief and the questioning and just um all of the feelings and feeling kind of far from God and and and not sure if he feel if he's even there and that kind of thing. but then, although I've had this sort of roller coaster of and instability,
00:30:43
Speaker
God has actually just not changed that that whole time, you know? and So he's always been all knowing, all loving.
00:30:54
Speaker
I've always been his child. My status never changed during that experience, you know? So I think that's good to know that people who experience doubt and struggles like that um can reflect on that, you know, that it was all, you had a roller coaster, but God was consistent because he always is.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Just, yeah, you're like he doesn't change. That's that's really beautiful. Like, yeah you're safe to wrestle because he's not changing and his promises aren't changing and he's not going anywhere.
00:31:31
Speaker
That's a great way to put it, hey, that you're you're safe to wrestle because he's not changing. Yeah, absolutely. I would find that encouraging if you told me that five years ago.
00:31:44
Speaker
That's really, that's beautiful. So thank you so much, Crystal, for sharing with us, like just those experiences of grief and doubt and how they kind of intertwined. It's just been really encouraging. So thank you for coming on.
00:31:58
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for having me. That's it from us, friends. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March to November.
00:32:24
Speaker
from Christian women in Western Australia. If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys. bye