Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Loving On Your Brothers and Sisters
86 Plays2 months ago
Loving On Your Brothers and Sisters was born from Britt texting this essay to our group chat and us collectively weeping at how beautiful and honest and encouraging it was. Join us as we debrief and process the practicalities of loving our as brothers and sisters in the church.
🎧 What it means to be brothers and sisters in Christ
🎧 Where we’ve seen this done well in our own lives
🎧 What we are working on to embrace the idea of church being family
🎧 The barriers we’ve grappled with as we try to love others (see: messy homes, fears of being a bad homemaker, busyness, not wanting to burden others, and not knowing where to start).
Check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the show.
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for free encouragement in your inbox on Wednesdays from local Christian women. One week you get essays and poetry, the next week you get a podcast episode.
If you want to say hello, give us a compliment or suggestion, drop a line to to rebecca@storiesidtellyouatdinner.com.au
Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'After Dinner Mint' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The grosser my house, the more opportunity I give people to practice the fruit of the spirit. They have to be right like, and my house is disgusting. You have to be nice to me. yeah Bring your patience is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner.
00:00:23
Speaker
Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table. It's not a sermon.
00:00:34
Speaker
It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
Meet the Host and Guests
00:00:50
Speaker
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the After Dinner Meet. Today, we are talking about the concept of brotherly love or sisterly love, whatever you want to call it.
00:01:02
Speaker
But this episode has really been spawned out of an article I read on Substack talking about what it means for brothers and sisters in Christ to really care for one another.
00:01:15
Speaker
And it got us all thinking when we read it about what it actually means to be brothers and sisters in the church. So let me introduce myself.
The Church as a Unique Community
00:01:25
Speaker
My name is Brittany. I am a mental health social worker and I am joined today by Maddie, Beck and Rachel. If you each would like to introduce yourselves and then we'll start with our first question.
00:01:38
Speaker
Hey, I'm Maddie. I'm finishing off my theology degree at Trinity and at home with two little kitties. Hi, I'm Rachel. I am a ah part-time emergency nurse and a full-time wife and mother.
00:01:50
Speaker
Hi, I'm Bec. I am... I'm the founder of Stories I Tell You at Dinner. I'm a trained... Why can't I do this without laughing? I'm a clinical psych, but I'm currently working at home with my three children and terribly bad introductions every single time.
00:02:08
Speaker
That's okay. It's fun. Good to know you. Why don't we... Why don't we throw it back to you then, Bec, and tell us what do you think it means to be brothers and sisters in the church?
00:02:20
Speaker
The more I have thought about this over the years, I just reckon there's nothing in the secular world like the church where natural enemies get together and people who wouldn't naturally hang out And when you spend a lot of time together, what you realise is it feels a lot like extended a family.
00:02:42
Speaker
ah Like you relate to older people as grandparents and ah you treat little kids like nieces and nephews. And I think... There's something about belonging and have people walking alongside you that is different to, say, like therapy where you just meet someone once off or you might walk with them intensively for a season.
00:03:03
Speaker
But some there's something about the church that's just very different. Yeah, I'd agree. What do you reckon, Maddie? Let me throw it back to you, though. Like, what's the difference, you think, at church, mean, compared to people who have joined a gym and have an awesome gym community?
00:03:18
Speaker
Like, I do find there's people who will say, like, I just love my gym community. It's the people, like, I see them every week. They encourage me to get fitter. We hang out. What do what do you really reckon is different in the church compared to those, like, those kind of communities?
Faith as a Unifying Factor in Church Communities
00:03:33
Speaker
I don't know, because I don't go to the gym.
00:03:37
Speaker
I
00:03:40
Speaker
yeah think any community founded around a common interest like the gym, climbing groups, walking groups, running groups, anything like that, you often do still attract a certain kind of person, whereas in a healthy church, I think you can expect that you would have people that are quite different to you, might think differently to you, might be more conservative than you or more liberal than you, and that you will rub up against each other and have to like come up against those differences and actually work through them in a way that you only otherwise do, I think, in your family of origin.
00:04:16
Speaker
But at this point, you're hopefully doing that with adults where you're also an adult and so the power dynamic is a bit different. What do you reckon, Rach? I think as well the the title brothers and sisters and, i mean, essentially siblings, there's a certain amount of – obligation and command in that because the Bible does call us brothers and sisters and in a family you do have obligation to your siblings and to the family unit and it's not just about like-minded people like you said, Brit, getting together.
00:04:47
Speaker
It's like I don't know what you guys think. Like I love my siblings but I wouldn't necessarily be best friends with them if i if we weren't in the same family. So I think there is a certain level of brothers and sisters. You must treat people no matter how different you are or your views as a sibling in the same family with the same purpose.
00:05:07
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's also like a recognition of like in saying that youre you're seeing people as brothers and sisters um in that, yeah, you don't choose your family, you know, so you have to get along.
00:05:19
Speaker
But also it's recognition that you've come from the same source, right? So it's recognition that as Christians, when we say we are brothers and sisters, we're in Christ, it is recognizing that we are part of God's family, that God is the head of our family, and that each person has dignity and worth on on the merit of what God has done for us, of us being adopted into his family, not necessarily on their personality or their gym status.
00:05:51
Speaker
yeah We're not choosing who we hang out with. We're actually, these are family. So I think that's, yeah, that's a significant part of being at church too. What do you guys think about in terms of like, obviously we're speaking for as Christians, but have you guys had any experience in other religious communities if there's similar?
00:06:10
Speaker
i I haven't, so I'm just asking, you know, if not, that's fine. But i I don't know if there's a similar concept in other like organised religions. A similar concept of in like the brothers and sisters?
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah, like the obligation to the other other people.
Loving Without Expectations: A Christ-like Model
00:06:25
Speaker
You know, you go to a mosque. Is there a similar, don't know. and i know. how to know I don't know. I don't know. I was just thinking about it because obviously it's a very Christian concept.
00:06:34
Speaker
But in a community, like what we were saying, what differs Christchurch and the relationship you have with other people in that specific context to other, like because obviously we have the gym example or the sports club example.
00:06:49
Speaker
But yeah, I don't know. i I would think that sometimes maybe that's a community obligation in other communities as well, but... I don't know. Betty?
00:07:00
Speaker
um I've definitely had an experience growing up going to kind of another religious like community and one of the things that they highly valued was by practising certain values.
00:07:11
Speaker
It was developing certain characteristics that God wants you to have. And so sometimes like in reflecting on that, like I was a kid so I wasn't really observing this outwardly. Everyone was so lovely. Like it wasn't seemed like a very genuine community and people cared deeply for one another. Yeah.
00:07:27
Speaker
But you can see how the way that's thinking could also just be like, I'm doing this to checkbox. Like, you know, I'm loving you because but then it's developing this value of love towards one another or kindness. And I want to work on gratitude. Or if still thinking a little bit inwardly and what you need to do as like a believer.
00:07:47
Speaker
But also if you actually think about in John, it literally says, ah We love bufo because God loves us. And then he says, in this same way, be like-minded to one another.
00:07:59
Speaker
If you love one another, people will know that you you are from God. And so it's literally like that is the mark of a Christian is to love others. And so we would do it not necessarily because
Gender and Friendship in Church
00:08:12
Speaker
we're commanded just to love, but because we have to recognize the grace that we've received first. So we give grace to other people who are not perfect.
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah. And who are really hard to to love sometimes. And then you actually, when you engage in that relationship with the knowledge that you, you'll say have received grace. They also have received grace. You're on that same standing. It's like, you don't hold them to as high a standard either.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. So I can't say i have broad experience, but my kids go to a school where there are like a lot of Afghani and Iraqi Muslim people there. It's interesting because when you talk to people who follow Islam, they really want to talk to you personally.
00:08:54
Speaker
about Islam. Like they really want to have a conversation about like, what do you wear to church? Like just about any kind of religious stuff. Like what do you wear to church? Like what do you guys do? What day is your church? Like they're just kind of fascinated. And then because of that, I read one book.
00:09:13
Speaker
I'll link in the show notes. I think it's called something like how to reach a Muslim friend with the gospel or something like that. Anyway, What was really interesting to me was two things from that book. They said Islam is simon's really legalistic.
00:09:26
Speaker
So, you know, you might theoretically do everything right, but on the day that you die, you do something wrong and you are not guaranteed that you will go to heaven. But also like for women, like there's the the things that it says for men, all the things that are promised are for men. Like there's not even very clearly like – anything for women, like about their heaven, anything like that. So there's a very distinct power structure. So when you talk to ladies, you're like, oh, well, when you go to church and they're like, well, what door do you go in? And i'm like, well, we all go in the same door and I can kind of wear whatever I want. But they're like, oh, I go in one door and my husband goes in the other one or some of the ladies are like,
00:10:01
Speaker
we don't go to church. Like the men go out on a Friday ah they go, but we don't go. or we have like a Zoom chat. But then my friend's like, I'm very busy. Like my Somalian she's like, I'm very busy. So she's like, I don't really go.
00:10:13
Speaker
or their kids are getting like Zoom training. Like, you know, they're getting taught the Quran, but like over Zoom by someone else. So it seems, I mean, this is just my rough from talking to mums at the school run and one book.
00:10:28
Speaker
But it is interesting because it doesn't seem the same. Like it doesn't seem so much everyone in a community together, like there's a very clear power structure. fast Well, and I guess in that sense there's not a cross-gender relationships.
00:10:48
Speaker
like No. I guess in thinking about this article, you guys all read as well. Yep. What were your thoughts about basically the crux of it is somebody who's been having a difficult time They all come together for a birthday and both men and women are able to offer affirmation, love and care to this person.
00:11:06
Speaker
And it's really powerful. Like reading the article, you know, I cried when I read it because it's just it's a beautiful picture of men and women loving each other in a Christlike way that has not been perverted into having to be sexual at the same time.
00:11:22
Speaker
yeah oh yeah on boy that you yeah it's not transactional it's to they say like we want you to give words to fortify her for her next decade like that's such a beautiful picture of somebody giving that gift of words to you like what what came up for you guys when you when you read it if we're thinking about what it means to be assisted to brothers and assisted to sisters.
00:11:50
Speaker
Right? and i The first thing I did think of was that, I mean, there's been thousand rom-coms made about it, but that concept of men and women, single men and women can't be friends or not even single, but, you know, men and women are never really friends because there's always that tension, which I've never really
Support and Vulnerability in Church Communities
00:12:07
Speaker
believed in But I had a conversation with my husband recently, some of his very close male friends were,
00:12:16
Speaker
and And I think maybe that's I have lower expectations for men than I do of women sometimes. But, like, some of our male Christian friends are so kind to me and I'm not my husband's wife.
00:12:27
Speaker
I'm my own person. And that just their interest in me as a person has a I feel like the cross-genderness of it sometimes feels more kind because I just assume I'm like, oh, well, I thought you'd want to talk to other men.
00:12:44
Speaker
And that had a bigger impact on me than having such kind interactions with me and genuine authenticity in our relationship and it in our community. Christian-ness together at Bible studies and that sort of thing. Yeah, I think it's a very unique thing and I think the world, a lot of people I know genuinely think that men and women can't actually be genuine friends.
00:13:12
Speaker
I love that and I think that's similar to something that like when I read that article what I thought was so beautiful Because she had been through such a hard time, she was like, the fact that my male friends, like my friend's husbands who had seen me walk through this – they were weeping for me.
00:13:34
Speaker
She's like, for men to do that, to see what women have gone through sometimes, it has been really difficult and to be like, we care that this has happened for you and we want to like protect and care for you.
00:13:46
Speaker
Like brother. Yeah. Yeah, like a brother. Exactly. You know, like that's not okay. And I think that's such a special thing. And I read, sorry, this is all me reading books, but I read another book called Jesus Through the Eyes of Women.
00:14:00
Speaker
was, was just so countercultural. It's just wild and like, yeah, I just never appreciated We're, I mean, we've kind of touched on this briefly now, but can you think of other examples where this has been put into practice well, either towards yourself or you've observed towards other people?
00:14:21
Speaker
I can think of one. i am really struck when men offer to help me with my kids. And C, it's tricky. I have four-year-old twins and it has been a wild ride since were born.
00:14:38
Speaker
And there are often times I just need help, like whether it's lifting the pram when and I needed to go up step, there are different men, particularly in our church community, who also make an effort to talk to my kids, like bend down and chat to them and show genuine interest in them.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I always really appreciate that because it's like it builds that sense of a body, like there's this community around them. I mean, women do this stuff, I think, in all the time. But I think particularly when I see men do it that also have not had children themselves, I'm really struck because I'm like, wow, you've actually – intuited a need that you haven't seen in like say your wife that you don't even have at the moment like you've thought about what my need is and there's literally no gang for you here it's just this is you serving people around you whereas perhaps women are kind of socialized well we are socialized more to consider others needs
00:15:35
Speaker
But I don't necessarily serve other people's needs with Christ-likeness, maybe with my actions, but not necessarily with my motivations and my inner thoughts, which I think is also the difference for Christians. It's like the source of the love is the issue.
00:15:51
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. We had a friend years ago in a Bible study who she was quite young and then she had a baby.
00:16:01
Speaker
She was single and she had a baby. And it was lovely because the Bible study like then met in her house and we had people of different ages and stages of life. But because her baby had colic, like different people would go take her baby for a walk so that she could have a sleep because, you know, she was on her own.
00:16:21
Speaker
And at the same time, we had another lady in the same Bible study and she he died. it was a couple and the wife died of cancer. And it was like a really hard time in both of those people's lives, but almost in that, it was lovely to see like our group, how they really did pull together like a family, like we would meet and pray for people and we would bring meals and check in and meet in whoever's house needed to be in.
00:16:54
Speaker
And I think that, yeah, like it was, mean, I was only newly married, but I think it, and it's weird to be like seeing other people's hard times was like a good thing for me, but it was almost a kindness that they let us into it and it was beautiful to get to see.
00:17:10
Speaker
Witnessed, yeah. Yeah, I wonder if part of being brothers and sisters is being willing to be vulnerable with each other because like, What an honour to walk alongside those two life experiences and not in a way where your you're not going to solve those problems but by, yeah, witnessing it and being there through it, you carry the burden together and it's so much less for everyone. i mean, and it would have been easier for this older couple to not have all of these younger people in their house
00:17:45
Speaker
Well, ah she was so unwell, but she would and she would have them in her house and we would pray for her. And you'd think, what a kindness, even a really horrible part of her life that almost she allowed others in.
00:18:02
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, look, I've definitely seen some amazing examples just through church of brothers and sisters in Christ caring and loving one another and even just ah thinking about as myself as someone coming from outside the church and joining like a young adults group, um coming in and seeing that actually it was the community itself that brought me in because the thing that stood out from like – Other communities was more that there wasn't necessarily that the like people hung out a lot, they got along, but yet not everyone was just like the cool group. Like there was a lot of quite interesting people in that mix, but they were never gossiped about behind their back.
00:18:46
Speaker
They weren't openly excluded because they were a little bit harder to get along with. There was none of this kind of it's easier if they don't come. They were always so openly welcomed.
00:18:58
Speaker
There was never any talk behind people's back. There was always welcome, friendship, genuineness, genuine love between the community. And that was just just in everyday life. Like it wasn't necessarily anything exceptional.
00:19:11
Speaker
But in coming from a high school background where – Friendships are flaky and it's really easy for one day, you know, someone's friends with this person, the next day they're not. And I went to an all-girls school. I was familiar with that. yeah And so, you know, to actually then be in the church community and going, oh, these people genuinely care for one another.
00:19:30
Speaker
was like, I can only explain that by there has to be something supernatural in this kind of love that people have for one another. It has to be spirit-led. And so, yes, that's definitely been my experience just in terms of being an observer.
00:19:45
Speaker
But I've seen some beautiful examples of couples coming over to Perth, not having any family, having kids and then really going through a hard time. And another family has almost like adopted them, like an older couple at churches has adopted them and their kids as fill-in grandparents.
00:20:02
Speaker
And this couple's occasionally stayed with them when husband's been away. or The kids have stayed. It's been really beautiful to see those friendships just foster. And I actually thought they were related at first. I was like, oh, yeah, they must be family members. And I'm like oh, they're not.
00:20:17
Speaker
They're actually just Christians who love one another and came around. like They just came around and invited them over for dinner, got to know them um and just genuinely reached out and cared.
00:20:27
Speaker
And I was like, oh, that's just really, really beautiful. but I went to the States when I, yeah that story literally just reminded me of this. I went to the States when I was 21 by myself because I was trying to prove a point. And I went to a church in Alabama and this old older couple just took me out to lunch.
00:20:42
Speaker
They didn't know me. Like i was just some random young person who went to their church and they took me out and bought me lunch. oh That's the Australian. Nice. That's so nice. Yeah, it was very sweet.
00:20:53
Speaker
Have you guys, the theme of this, have you guys ever found the concept of Christ as our brother a difficult one to get your head around in the context of us as brothers and sisters in Christ? And then I've always found like Jesus being my brother is not like...
00:21:10
Speaker
a weighty enough title for him as anyone else I've literally or never thought about it oh its same like I've just never it's never even occurred to me about like he's all of these things you're like yeah he's the Prince Peace he's a mediator he's you know Tengajill and other titles I've never actually spent any time thinking about that I think the term, is like he is the older brother.
00:21:31
Speaker
Yes. So like yeah the ultimate older brother. He's the head of the family. You know, he' he's the one who gets all the inheritance. And so it's like ah not like in a patriarchal society, it's really handy that he is the older brother. I find it so like after finding out a bit of the context, I don't necessarily think of him as because I do have a brother as well.
00:21:49
Speaker
But I also have had a lovely relationship with my brother in that when I was younger, I actually shared a room with him even though he's like five years older than me. And my sister's two and a half. She's like two a half years older than me.
00:22:01
Speaker
She kicked me out. She was like, i don't think you're my room. This is my room. i Anyway, so my brother kindly invited me in. And he was the brother that like I would get night terrors and he would come into bed, give me a cuddle until I was asleep and then go back to his his bed. And this is when I was like ohs so swear four, five, six.
00:22:22
Speaker
and then obviously he was old enough he wanted his own bedroom but he's always had that relationship so i think of like jesus my older brother like oh that's actually really nice i always wanted an older brother that was the dream when i was i have only sisters they're all right but yeah look my brother i have a brother i've got both and you know it don't it ought to but
00:22:50
Speaker
My siblings are great, but, like, it depends on your personality, not too much.
Exploring Familial and Church Dynamics
00:22:55
Speaker
He's very good little boy, if I'm honest. Yeah, it's and I suppose if you've got more siblings, there's just more people to pick from if you argue with one of them.
00:23:02
Speaker
Like, only have one brother. Oh, yeah like mean And we get along, but there's only the two of us. If we argue, there's no one else. Yeah. but The Sun War tournament is very short.
00:23:14
Speaker
You don't want the sibling pile on. It's no fun. How many siblings have you got, Britt? There is six of us total. Suck off. Two brothers and three sisters.
00:23:27
Speaker
Wow. A lot. That's a big pileup. It is a big pileup. But your story of, like, your sister saying she's not sharing with you, like, we all shared rooms. I shared a room until was, like, 18.
00:23:38
Speaker
It's just, like, you didn't get to say the person could be in there. You just had to live with them. but There's not enough room, kids. Like, you just got to share. Mm-hmm.
00:23:49
Speaker
Not a bit like the church. She was that age. She'd clearly still be in your family and have her own room. Yeah. She's a incredible woman. I love her. She's like my best friend. But anyway.
00:24:01
Speaker
Hilarious. ah the smell All right. To bring us back on track. Please, Jo, help us. Is there anything... you were trying to work on to embrace the idea of the church as family.
00:24:14
Speaker
That is different to secular culture. Go back. I'm just going to this out there. I'm very much working on hospitality, not hospitality. Not entertaining per se.
00:24:26
Speaker
And this kind of leads me into, yeah I think it's that being like, okay, I'm willing to just invite people in. Like the other day, my friend texted me and her washing machine was broken. And she's like, can I do a load of laundry at your house? was like, yeah, great, come.
00:24:37
Speaker
And then she was like, because she was there and she was waiting for her laundry, she's like, you want me fold laundry? And I was like, yes. Then we folded laundry together. And I was like, this is awesome why would we not do this more often like she lives around the corner i was like why don't we do this this is great and also my laundry got folded but i think it's different to entertaining but and i know that you could smash this one forever but if i waited for my house to be perfect i'd never invite anybody over but also in saying that If I actually bother, I think I haven't done a lot of like good homemaking because I'm like I'm bad at it so then I don't want to do it.
00:25:13
Speaker
But I feel like actually investing some time and energy into it makes me more likely to want to open my home because I'm like, okay, it's not insane.
00:25:24
Speaker
So ironically, like I don't have a problem with inviting people eat I don't have a problem with talking to people because I'm an extrovert, but I am working on my house and my homemaking skills so that I can be more hospitable.
00:25:40
Speaker
Does that? Yeah. I feel like you said a lot of things. I always think the grosser my house, the more opportunity I give people to practice the fruit of the spirit. They have to be raised.
00:25:52
Speaker
Like and my house is disgusting. You have to be nice to me. Yeah.
00:25:58
Speaker
yeah Bring your patience and
00:26:04
Speaker
And come with peace. Yes, exactly. Please bring cookies. Yeah, that too. Yeah. Yeah, my fridge is empty. Bring a meal. But, I mean, it is a vulnerable thing, though. It is what you say, Bec. It's like you can't waiting, wait, like you would not do that to a sister or a brother. Waiting to be perfect, you'll never do anything. You would never be a sister or a brother if you are waiting to be the perfect sister or brother.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah. Speaking of waiting, I think that a big barrier that I find challenging is like, The time cost because it always takes time to actually be intentional with other people, right?
00:26:45
Speaker
It's not efficient at all. Oh, no. And you kind of think, so it's really easy to just feel like your week just fills up and then it's like, oh no no I don't have time to invite that person over. Or um this person wants to meet up for coffee. Oh, I know. Like I really should. They're going through a hard time.
00:27:02
Speaker
But this morning I feel like I just really need a home day. You know, there's these other things. But then as soon as you actually go, no, no, these things are really, this is actually really um important. and And it's um The things I'm trying to prioritize above meeting with that person or showing love and kindness to those people, they're not eternal factors. Those things can wait. Like these people, they're eternal. They're like the family that I'm going to have forever. Like these are my God's people and and God's called me to love them.
00:27:31
Speaker
And that's actually more important and takes a greater priority than me just having a little bit of extra time at home or whatever it is. I think that's that time factor has been probably for me the idea I need to like let go of. a I have just had a weird thought. It is on topic, but it's not necessarily answering the question you asked.
00:27:50
Speaker
It literally just occurred to me. Take us to a weird place. It just occurred to me that... if and when my children decide to follow Christ, that they will be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
00:28:03
Speaker
And that's weird. They're not your neighbour. Yeah. They're your little neighbours in your house. Yeah. But i like but i wonder if that's even like helpful to see them that way in that context of as part of like we're as part of the body instead of the hierarchy of parent and child.
00:28:22
Speaker
I mean, I'm literally thinking about this out loud, but I'd never thought about that. of them as my brother and sister in Christ. Yeah. I feel like my brain can't even conceptualise this. I'm just like words. Yeah.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah, like I think about my spouse's family and how their parents deeply respect their adult children. They're independent people and, you know, they they do have a different relationship. I feel like right now with young children, it's different to think about them in that brotherly, sisterly way.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, I was just... When they need such a great guidance.
Building Intentional Church Communities
00:29:03
Speaker
But you know what? Same. hu True. much i didn't That's Jesus looking at us like... um too yeah yeah actually is very lovely.
00:29:10
Speaker
Yeah. yeah I reckon sometimes something that is a barrier for me from like acting on that Broadway Sister Love and thinking about like what to do is or how to kind of serve other people that are around me is working out a bit like where to focus my energy and I don't mean that I'm like I have so many friends not what I mean such a beauty and being so popular hard guys no I just mean more like you know when you're in a church community and how many people
00:29:46
Speaker
And then think, well, where should I kind of slot myself in? Should I be someone that thinks about like people that aren't married yet or aren't married at all? and kind of adopt them into my family. Do they even want that?
00:30:00
Speaker
You know, trying to work out where do you kind of go for other mothers? Do you go for people that you get along with? Do you pick the person actually you don't know very much?
00:30:11
Speaker
Like um how do I focus my energies and be wise with the time that I have to serve those that are around me? I reckon even because churches are so often, i know we're saying like the church as family, but often in bigger churches, churches are divided by age.
00:30:27
Speaker
Like it does take a lot of intentionality to make cross-age friendships. Like I had this lovely girl and she, well, I mean, say girl, she was a young adult. Like she was studying and she was working and she was doing kids' ministry.
00:30:47
Speaker
And so she used to babysit my kids and then we would get together and like read like a book as a Bible. And I think we did maybe three, like not long ones. I think we did a part. Actually, no, we did read Daniel to be fair, but we just read it.
00:30:59
Speaker
The point of this is, After a while, we did become, we became friends. But it took a level of intentionality and a lot of time.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah. Like even your thing, Maddie, like it just took a lot of time. And I kind of was like, this is the one thing I'm doing in this season. And even to set it up, I had to ask my pastor, like, you know, i need a babysitter, but I was also looking for a younger woman to read with.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's actually funny you say that because, like, one of my closest friends is, a think she's got, like, 10 or 12 years older than me because she really did just take me under her wing when and i was, like, a young married woman newly at the church And she had her own family.
00:31:43
Speaker
just started asking after me, asked to hang out. And then we just became really close over a period of time. I used to sometimes go and babysit her kids, but now we like holiday together for a weekend away every year.
00:31:55
Speaker
And like, it's just really, it's really beautiful, but it is, yeah, you're right. it's really intentional. boom And then I think for myself, I've also had a few young women reflect on time where I've met with them And they've either been flagged to me by a pastor. So sometimes being like, is there anyone you think would be appropriate for me to kind of meet with or who might enjoy getting to know us a bit or something like that? Sometimes the pastors could be really helpful to say, hey, this young woman's just graduated high school.
00:32:21
Speaker
She's a little bit lost and would love to probably get to know an older woman who is intentionally following Jesus. And so I think things like that is a really good way to start.
00:32:32
Speaker
um But I had a little bit of that where I was meeting with someone and I didn't, I think about it, you know, I might've only been reading the Bible with them for a really short period of time. And then realizing that the impact that had, I was involved in at least two of their weddings like this year. And I haven't actually met with them like over five years.
00:32:48
Speaker
I mean, when they're still part of our community and friendship and, you know, we deeply care and love one another, but it feels like the Lord uses these really little things that we can do for one another. can have such a great impact.
00:32:59
Speaker
really Yeah. And even Brit, I think it's that. It's hard picking because, yeah, you can't do everything. And in a season of life where you're really limited, it is hard to to be like, yeah, well, where should I invest my time?
00:33:15
Speaker
That's okay to invite them into your mess a little bit as well. Like it's actually kind of nice for them to like, yeah, you kind of go, come and make dinner with me while I hang out with the kids as well and we can share life together a little bit and then we can hang out.
00:33:31
Speaker
I also think though part of me just is like it just feels so awkward. Yeah. To ask, you know, like to seek someone out really intentionally to me almost feels quite like,
00:33:45
Speaker
But I think that's something in general I probably just have to grapple with a bit because I think throughout my life relationships have felt quite like just natural.
00:33:57
Speaker
So I don't particularly think intentionally about think we talked about this in some another episode. Like I didn't realize other people are really intentional about this sort of thing and I hadn't clicked that that was just like a normal thing to do.
00:34:10
Speaker
And so in thinking about how to love others, like it does actually take a level of intentionality. I don't think you can be like, oh, it just happened. You kind of do need to work at So I think it is something I need to work at.
00:34:23
Speaker
oh And I think I struggle. I really struggle to say no to stuff. So I struggle to ask people stuff because I don't want to put people in the position that I get put in all the time. was like, what if they don't want to hang out with me?
00:34:35
Speaker
Like I'm in a quiet, I don't want to be a burden. Yeah. I don't want to put this on people. They're like, Oh my gosh, she asked like, you know what like? I, that's just me in my own head. But Yeah. I'm familiar. I'm familiar. Yeah. It's like if I'm upset, and I don't want to be hugged. So I struggle to hug people when they're upset because that might be what they like, but I don't like it. I want to hug you because I assume but you you don't want to do that.
00:35:00
Speaker
This is. Let's miss bump. Yeah, exactly. The snapshot of the things that happen inside of my thoughts.
00:35:08
Speaker
That's fine. i agree, Brit. We should be more intentional. Yeah. Like the worst thing that happens when you are intentional is that someone semi-ghosts you and you go, a try but and I And then, yeah, because it always takes two. It just always takes two.
00:35:24
Speaker
Like it just sometimes takes one initiating. Like to actually reach out and say, hey, are you going? And sometimes all it needs is a hey, how are you going? And I don't think it always needs to be super formal.
00:35:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I don't think it always needs to be super formal either. Like I've had, I've got to know beautiful older ladies and, you know, had I've asked them to do anything like serious or structured, like, you know, and it just would have been super awkward. Like I have learned lots from just talking to older ladies and making a point of,
00:35:56
Speaker
talking to them and asking them questions and be like, what did you do? And like, what was helpful and what wasn't helpful? And, you know, yeah i don't think intentionality always has to be like a five point plan to stop the boats. I think sometimes it's just, I'm going to take five minutes and talk to someone who's really little or someone who's older or talking to my friend's kid, who's like seven And making a point of being like, what's your favourite class at school?
00:36:20
Speaker
Like, don't know. You know mean? Like, what do you like to do at school? Who's your friends? Yeah. I think the biggest thing about this is also just about showing up, like, rather than, like, being really quick to leave.
00:36:32
Speaker
It's really easy to just want to kind of go, like, leave church when there's the milling around and sometimes, I'm not really sure who to talk to. me But actually... Hang around, like persevere a little bit through some of the social awkwardness, say hi to someone, recognize that there's someone sitting on their own and actually make that awkward icebreaker and go say hi or and actually hang around. And and showing up to church this week, it's like actually make a commitment to attend a couple of these they like these outside church events, but also just be present at church as well.
00:37:03
Speaker
It's just a really good way to show love to one another because you showing up every week is encouraging someone. Yeah. And if you think about it in that sense, like you already kind of have that in your calendar, right? Like you're going to church every Sunday.
00:37:15
Speaker
So you don't need to then try and find time outside of that. It kind of takes away that business barrier. Like if you're just intentional even in the, well, we have a coffee break, it's like pick someone different to just say hi to Yeah.
00:37:28
Speaker
I think just, I think maybe it was Rory, I don't know, maybe because I was a very new Christian when I went to like St. Matt's and so a lot of the things he said is just stuck in my head. But I do remember him saying like they only had like a Wednesday night Bible study and then church. And he's like, we want you to go and be part of the volleyball team, be part of stuff.
00:37:46
Speaker
And when you come to church or Bible study, like just be really intentional about those times.
00:37:54
Speaker
Solidly practical advice. Yeah. Yeah.
Overcoming Barriers to True Fellowship
00:38:00
Speaker
So we've kind of touched on this already, but are there barriers we've had to grapple with that anyone can think of beyond the ones that we've kind of just discussed?
00:38:08
Speaker
I don't want to People are annoying. I would like to pray for, like, my neighbour in general, but I don't want to have, like, hope you love my neighbour. But then, like, at that specific neighbour, you're like, not that one. You're like, oh, I have to learn patience again. Or the person in the Bible. Be careful what you pray for. I have to learn it again. And you're like, I'm the annoying person to them.
00:38:29
Speaker
And so, you know, there's that. I'm sorry. Yeah, keep going. I think i' like that's as far as the salt went. Weird purity culture has made me hyper vigilant of being perceived as inappropriate with men.
00:38:44
Speaker
So I think I'm very conscious. like and like just I think I'm very conscious of how things look. in in Yeah. And so I think that that's definitely ah like a mental barrier for me.
00:38:54
Speaker
And when I'm just being kind to someone, I'm very conscious of that because I think that was really drummed into my head of like, you know, have no appearance of what's that verse about no appearance of scene or whatever.
00:39:08
Speaker
And I think I've had a lot of pop culture as well of like, oh, men and women can't be friends. Like, yeah, I think that's definitely a barrier for me. That's so interesting. So, yeah, almost going to such an extreme you don't get the advantages of yeah that brotherly love or, like, you almost lose out a little bit.
00:39:27
Speaker
If everything is so sexual, you know what mean? Like, we want to avoid the culture's hypersexuality and then so we keep each other, we're so far apart that you actually don't get to be friends or enjoy and Yeah. I think I've gotten better at that as I've gotten older and you get older and objectively less attractive, so I care a bit less. It's like, that's that's fine.
00:39:54
Speaker
I'm less hot and desirable, so I think hopefully that makes this easy. Oh, Ted. I feel like that might not be. and and it was completely intentional. Excuse me.
00:40:07
Speaker
It's only one of the three kids. What? No, I'm kidding. I'm trying to get out of here. Don't jump. But I have some very good male friends, particularly like my friend's husbands who have helped like get over that of like i I have good male friendships now and they're all Christians.
00:40:27
Speaker
um And I actually really cherish those relationships because um it's nice to have another male perspective who's not my husband to be able to bounce things off someone else to go, oh, you have an opinion and I, as a brother in Christ, then I can ask you stuff and I can have a conversation and be a friend and just have a relationship with you without it being weird.
00:40:49
Speaker
Actually, ah have to say, you just remind me of this story? i remember when I was in my early twenties and I was dating someone who was not a Christian and I thought it was a wonderful idea at the time.
00:41:02
Speaker
And A guy who was just in my group of friends, like I wasn't particularly good friends with him. And he took me out to coffee and he was like, really lovely, really gentle. he was like, I think you should break up with a boyfriend. And I was like, no, I don't want to.
00:41:20
Speaker
I'm going to do what I want. And that was a terrible life choice. But I saw this guy like 10 years later. he's now at my church. And um and I saw him and i was like thank you so much. You were the only one. I had other friends. You were the only one who was like, I don't think what you're doing is wise.
00:41:34
Speaker
And it would have been so much easier for him to just not have to deal with that. oh Yeah. You know, to be awkward, to say the thing, but like just kind of thing that a brother would do.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's actually pretty impressive that he did that. It was very impressive. Yeah. And with gentleness and kindness, like, you know, everyone's had the church abuse kind of thing or, you know, heard of those cases of, you know, you shouldn't be doing that. It's dishonor in the Lord.
00:42:03
Speaker
Like, you're like, oh, I don't think it actually. Like, he wasn't mean. Like, we were friends, but, like, you know, in the same group of friends. But he wasn't mean. He wasn't like, you're terrible. Nothing like that. He was just like, I just don't think what you're doing is wise.
00:42:15
Speaker
But also you didn't, like, it's not like you thought that was wonderful at the time either.
Conclusion and Encouragement to Embrace Community
00:42:20
Speaker
Like that was ah risking a relationship for that. And like, Lucy, you appreciated it in the future, but at the time he's like, well, I'm going to do what's right and I'm going to say the truth.
00:42:32
Speaker
And, yeah you know, yeah. Just be like that guy. yeah Although luckily you weren't like, he must like me.
00:42:43
Speaker
That's also true.
00:42:47
Speaker
are with me ah he risked you thinking it was like an opening oh yeah that's true no i don't know i just don't think there was no it wasn't it wasn't that i'm just saying like it does take courage to have that conversation with someone and then have to not quickly justify by the way i'm not into you he's like i'm not into you don't date me just don't date him
00:43:18
Speaker
Like, to be clear, I think he should be single forever, but don't date him. That's funny. It's a teapot for one.
00:43:29
Speaker
but Oh, guys. All right. So to bring it back together.
00:43:41
Speaker
Bring it back. together um
00:43:46
Speaker
I'd love to help us What do we think the main barriers are? I guess like not liking people, which is normal. Yeah. Some people are harder to love for whatever greats your own personality.
00:44:00
Speaker
Yeah. And so I think we do have to get past our own self really in order to care for people as Christ does. It asks us to kind of go beyond just thinking about ourselves. I think we have to also have an action to do of ourselves as a fellow sinner who has been forgiven much.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yes. Totally easy to think that you're patient if no one ever annoys you. That's true. You just hang out for a second if you don't annoy you. I saw when I was was a patient of my kids.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yep. Yep. Me too. Look, who is it that says that quote? I want to say C.S. Lewis, but I feel like someone's going to correct it. You know, it's like to become more selfless, you have to think of yourself less.
00:44:44
Speaker
That's just another way. Like it's just a way to love other people is remembering it's not about you. Yeah, not care if you get rejected and also not care if you just like not expect they have to be your bestie.
00:44:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Like literally plug there's so many commands all through all the letters and even like jesus just to love one another because it's it's the mark of the church. Like it's the thing that makes the church the church.
00:45:13
Speaker
And so. But what if I'm exception to the rule? You're not special. I'm so sorry.
00:45:20
Speaker
Why do you keep telling me this? Jesus still had to die for you. Yeah. oh so yeah So I Googled it and yes, it was C.S. Lewis. The air quote was correct. I knew it. Okay. I wasn't just like attributing something to someone else and then like anyway.
00:45:39
Speaker
I could have said i said it but I thought that was. so to summarise, we are called to love one another. We need to really think about how to be intentional with that and get past our own self, think of ourself less in order to be selfless and grapple with the sin that comes up in this area yeah and then just do it and actively love the people around us and if you aren't sure who just look around the room for someone that has no one standing near them
00:46:17
Speaker
That's it for experience. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March to November from Christian women in Western Australia.
00:46:38
Speaker
If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys.