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Ask Me Anything: Kids Ministry Edition featuring Josie Rivett
76 Plays16 days ago
This is a different type of episode for us—it’s our first Ask Me Anything episode. Bec enjoyed her chat with Josie so much that she found a way to bring her back! Maddy and Bec pepper Josie with questions from women who volunteer and work in kids ministry across WA. We run the gamut of topics from rural churches to doubts about enduring in teaching kids after leadership failures. This is a delightfully encouraging episode if you have kids in your life, even if you are not gifted in singing or children’s craft or possess the teacher voice. Josie reminds us that sharing our faith with children is a whole church task, because we are a family.
You can check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the episode.
You can contact Josie for bespoke training for your church via the contact form on her website, Living Words, or email hello@livingwords.net.au
Learn more about Maddy and Bec to save us sharing awkward bios!
About Josie
Living Words combines three things Josie loves: Jesus, teaching and kids. She’s passionate about quality teaching that’s enjoyable, engaging, and thought-provoking. Using her experience and studies in education and theology, Josie has created a Biblically sound curriculum that’s easy to access, understand, and implement. Josie is helped by a team of people who have taught others about Jesus for many years.
While her favourite things are her husband and four kids, she loves having a chat and would never say no to a small (or large) piece of cake. Josie attends Providence Church in Perth, Western Australia.
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for honest stories in your inbox on Wednesdays (March through November) from local Christian women. It’s all free 💛
If you want to send us compliments or constructive suggestions, get in touch at rebecca@storiesidtellyouatdinner.com.au.
If you love the podcast, writing a review on Apple Podcasts or leaving a five star review Spotify helps other women find us. Thank you!
Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
You know, like pre-primary teachers are like have the sing-songy voice, but you know that they just like are ah so in charge and they're a little bit terrifying. i don't have that. Oh, it's okay, though. but It's not like lions attacking, you know, the herd of antelopes picking off the weak.
00:00:18
Speaker
i don't think No, no, no, they're sharp. They can smell the blood. They don't. This the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
00:00:37
Speaker
It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not tough hole. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community. encourage you to do that with our God and our communities.
00:00:53
Speaker
Hi everyone, it's Maddie here. Welcome back to season two of the After Dinner Mint podcast. We're really excited to be back with you in your earbuds, whether you're on your daily commute or washing the dishes or just trying to drown out the noise. um It's delightful to join you today. I'm here today with Bec and with Josie Rivett, our guest. If you guys could introduce yourselves, guests first. We'll get Josie to go first if you can introduce yourself.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, hi, I'm Josie. I am married to Steve and I have four children and they are 14, ages 14 to 20. And I am a PhD student, so I'm doing a doctorate in education and I also write kids ministry resources generally in my day.
00:01:39
Speaker
Awesome. Well, great to have you here today. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Bec? I'm Bec. I'm the founder of Stories I'll Tell You at Dinner. It's an online magazine that brings Christian women in WA together through Honour Stories. I'm married to Zach. I'm a mum to three little boys. I've trained as a ClinSyke and I've worked in, you know, all the happy places, child protection prisons, hospitals, all fun things.
00:02:03
Speaker
And Maddie, tell us about you, bro. Well, I'm Maddie. I trained as a speech pathologist working in hospitals with people who had swallowing and communication difficulties. Now I am tackling the final hurdle of my Masters of Divinity at Trinity Theological College. I'm i'm juggling work and study as a kids and communities minister at Prov Church in Midland.
00:02:25
Speaker
Much of my time though is spent dedicated to my beautiful family, my husband Robbie and two little kiddies. So today I'm really excited about today's episode because it's our first Ask Me Anything episode. and We're really looking forward to peppering Josie with all the questions we've received about kids ministry. So thanks everyone who sent in questions from to our email or our Instagram account. So Josie's going to answer some of those for us today.
00:02:50
Speaker
Let's jump into it. So yeah, no pressure, Josie. I'm excited to have all of the answers. it I'll do my best. ah Ask me anything. Yeah, yeah. Ask me anything. Yeah. It's like, oh, got a golden ticket. So, Josie, what do you look for in a good kids' curriculum? So apart from your own, which you're very welcome welcome to tell us all about, but yeah, what do you look for in a good kids' curriculum and what does it actually need to have when you're choosing something for your ministry?
00:03:20
Speaker
Yes. So firstly, I'd probably look for something that covers, that repeats the Bible. It doesn't just look at it one time. It comes back to the Bible again and again because the Bible is not like the books that we normally read. Normally we read through one book and then we put it down and we move on to the next one.
00:03:39
Speaker
But the Bible is something that we need to keep coming back to again and again. So I think if it's embedded into the curriculum, then that's really great. I think also good coverage of the Bible, not just the stories or the I don't know, the bits about lions, which is what we were talking about today with my team. And whales.
00:03:58
Speaker
And whales. I think kids need to experience at the breadth of the Bible. um And I think as well, maybe an attempt at simplifying some of the, because the Bible has quite complex language and quite complex concepts.
00:04:14
Speaker
So attempting to simplify some of that. And ideally you would also have a program that prepares teachers as well as looking to the kids. That would be what our just four things.
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, nice. In a program. Now I have a question, just kind of if you're... I like, well, I mean, this is a question that I have stolen from the people who sent it in. But yeah the next one is like, what are the building blocks of kind of good, effective kids ministry? Like you might have a good curriculum, but like the actual ministry itself, like how does it not fall apart?
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah, so this is a good question. i thought, for me personally, I think it's people. People are the building blocks for kids' ministry, people who care about kids and who want to teach them about God and who are excited about what God's done for us, especially in Jesus.
00:05:08
Speaker
i think I don't think you need much in the way of resources. Sometimes we go to a church where we don't have a building, so everything needs to be carted around in a in a van. So i think they keep it all to a minimum.
00:05:24
Speaker
I also think it's helpful if the people that you have have or who are helping out have a willingness to learn about the Bible and then a willingness to give their knowledge away. Some people like to hold on to their knowledge and they don't like sharing it. But when you're with kids, you really want to be quite generous with what you know.
00:05:43
Speaker
That's really like encouraging to hear as well, that it's like more the enthusiasm because I hear so many people kind of say that they're daunted by kids ministry because yeah they're afraid of getting things wrong or just not sure that they'd have have the right equipment or have all the ideas. But it's it's it's great that it starts with, you know, an enthusiasm and a knowledge of the Bible that you want to share. so that's really encouraging and I hope that encourages our listeners as well. Well, I'm encouraged because I have not done kids ministry and I basically run my entire life through. I'm enthusiastic but not very skilled.
00:06:18
Speaker
ah enthusiasm Enthusiasm, I feel, is like the basic building block of kids ministry. but Just a general enthusiasm. Yeah, yeah. It is true. You can tell the difference, you know, with with someone who's there and don't doesn't want to be to someone who just loves chatting with the kids and yeah and sharing and engaging. Yeah.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, so that that's – you could do kids ministry if you wanted to, beck you know. Oh, yeah. just Just like, you know, if you're looking a new day job. I'm just here. I'm here to learn. Like, I ran a playgroup and I just, like, did not do the story and song at all. I was like, I'm terrified. The children are here and the adults are here and the children know that I'm weak. You know what i mean? How, like, you know, like, pre-primary teachers are, like, have the sing-songy voice, but you know that they just, like, are ah so in charge and they're a little bit terrifying?
00:07:09
Speaker
i don't have that. Oh, it's okay though. but It's not like lions attacking, you know, the herd of antelopes, picking off the weak. I don't think people really like that. No, no, no. They're sharks. They can smell the blood.
00:07:24
Speaker
They know. They smell weakness. No, no, no, no. They do. They smell weakness. They know. I'm just telling They know. Yeah. Okay. yeah ah like I'm just to take us on a tangent. So, Maddie, please help us. but Let's get us back on track. Yeah. Look.
00:07:37
Speaker
Look. We know, i guess we know that kids ministry is not just on a Sunday and it's not just about ah teaching the children. So how, like how do we involve and empower the whole family when we're shaping our kids ministry? Not just the child, but how do you involve the parents in discipling their children?
00:07:58
Speaker
Mm hmm. So this is a tricky question. It's got a tricky answer that might not be particularly satisfying, i think. I mean, obviously you can get parent volunteers and then they're in the classroom, they're seeing what is being taught and then hopefully they're going home and they're talking about what is happening in the class.
00:08:18
Speaker
I reckon singing kids songs in church is really great. So then that brings the music home to the kids. And there are lots of great songs that talk about the Bible and do sort of scripture in song, that type of thing. So that's really Can sing a for us now?
00:08:37
Speaker
I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding. Do want me sing? Do you want me to sing anything? going to turn off right now.
00:08:46
Speaker
I'm just... But it is difficult. i think family life is busy and mums and dads might not feel equipped or motivated and they might feel like they've got no time to teach their kids.
00:09:00
Speaker
You can always be letting them know what you're studying in the classes, but ultimately it's up to the parents to drive this. And so there's not much you can do, I feel, apart from encouraging them and offering them opportunities to open up the classroom. I know it's quite pessimistic, but you don't want it to be a guilt trip for parents that they have to, one more thing that they have to be doing on top of everything else.
00:09:25
Speaker
I'm happy to talk more about it, but it is it is the yeah something that has to be come from inside parents, I think, as well.
00:09:37
Speaker
um It's hard to come from outside and impose that yeah um mean sort of drive. Yeah. Yeah, what I'm hearing is like actually the responsibility for the children does ultimately lie with the parent.
00:09:51
Speaker
And, you know, you can support and equip, but you can't yeah force something that's not there. Yeah. That's kind of a whole church, like, kind as well, isn't it? You know, where you want to be discipling the whole church. Kids' ministries are part of it, but you're hoping that the parents are getting fed too.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Sorry to be... I don't know. Depressing slash realistic. Realistic. Like, you know, you can't do everything in like one hour a week.
00:10:24
Speaker
Like, you know, you're helping and guiding, but like who's ultimately responsible? You're like, well, it's the parents. Which I think kind of... This next question is probably the flip side to that. isn' Like what advice do you have for support? Like I suppose for kids ministry later. So what advice do you have for supporting kids who don't want to be there Sunday morning? Like they're spent all week in school. It's like school again. Like how do you yeah engage their hearts?
00:10:53
Speaker
So i this question here, I feel there's sort of two aspects of it. I think that when we look at children, what we often get are the emotions we see on their faces or their words that they say that tell us how they are feeling.
00:11:08
Speaker
And those emotions are not necessarily good indicators for us of whether we should be doing our job or not. So I don't think that just because someone doesn't like it, it's a bit like vegetables.
00:11:23
Speaker
Your kids might not like vegetables, but you don't go, oh, that's okay. You don't need to eat that. Or brushing your teeth. ah You don't go, it's totally fine. Dental hygiene. Oh, baby. Dental hygiene is optional. That's okay.
00:11:35
Speaker
You don't need to cross. Look at the road when you cross. walk straight on out. That's right. So in some ways, emotions shouldn't really drive us. a Kids' emotions shouldn't drive our responsibility and our approach to our job.
00:11:51
Speaker
However, do think, so need to do our job or regardless, but there are ways that we can make it enjoyable. And the first thing i would suggest is that we care about the kid.
00:12:02
Speaker
We don't need to be so concerned about the progress. that we forget to talk to them. It's so important to just get down, especially that with the ones who find it difficult and find out, you know, about their cricket or their whatever it is that matters in their world to them.
00:12:21
Speaker
That, I reckon, is what kids love. They love being cared about and they love talking about themselves. And the second thing would be don't make it all like school. It doesn't have to be like school. Like, yes, it's a bit more formal than just, you know, playing.
00:12:37
Speaker
But I know it's difficult, but I would really highly recommend food or fun, just games, especially with the older kids. I've noticed that kids older kids are older, open up with food and with games.
00:12:51
Speaker
And thirdly, this is also difficult. I would certainly set some boundaries and I would certainly enforce them. You can't, have to work out how you do that. But there are ways teachers have these tricks of, of you know,
00:13:07
Speaker
just setting boundaries and then making sure that kids don't step over them. And sometimes the bad attitude can cross over into undesirable behaviours as well.
00:13:18
Speaker
So, yeah, i would that would be at the end of that though. Nice. Now, while you were talking... I'm taking notes there. Just letting you know. It's like notes for my kids' ministry, notes for at the breakfast Bible time that I do with my son, you know.
00:13:36
Speaker
Aww. but But the thing you really reminded me of as you were talking, Josie, was yeah I saw this TED talk once. It was this teacher and she had been a teacher for basically her entire working life.
00:13:48
Speaker
And what she said, her main point was like, kids don't learn from people they don't like. yeah And you think ultimately that, like and that's true. And like, who do we like? We like people who like us.
00:14:00
Speaker
yeah And that's just a consistent across people. Yeah. if you I think as well with kids often, i'd i generally do this with babies as well, persistence is the key. You just keep seeing your face right in there. You just keep getting in there, saying hi, smiling, asking them how they're going, and they can't resist it.
00:14:25
Speaker
You know, everyone loves to talk about themselves, especially children. This is true. Like, this is how you can do an hour of therapy. And, like, but no no one's upset about that they haven't asked you a question.
00:14:36
Speaker
You're like, no, no, whole conversation for an hour. It's great. That's right. They do pay you. but yeah In Yeah, yeah. I mean, I suppose, like, yes, yes, dollars are exchanged. However, no one is sad about it. This is my point.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. you know Yeah. Obviously I feel like of what you've shared as well as like a massive encouragement just for even parents who are every day doing, you know, trying to do either some Bible time or something with their kids. And, you know, it kind of ties back to what we were talking about before about families as well, where kids do, kids can just come to the like go through phases of like, I don't want to be at church. I don't want to read the Bible. definite and i don't want to pray. and And your faithful kind of consistency um and modeling it to them and doing it side by side with them, you know, they kind of go through that.
00:15:26
Speaker
And yeah, we again, it's good for them. It's their veggies. you know yeah Yeah, yeah. The Bible is literally likened to food. you if yeah You cannot be spiritually nourished without the Bible. It's the same for our kids. Yeah. And it's probably like it's it's that consistency, isn't it, I guess, ultimately. You're like, well, you know what? Like we did Bible time today. Sometimes you read your Bible, you're like, this is the bit this is amazing. And sometimes you're like, oh, my gosh, I did it. But like, okay, I'm glad that was over.
00:15:52
Speaker
And, you know, the same with your kids. Like if you're doing it every day, it's fine if it's bad one day because you'll come at again tomorrow. Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's not a one like it's not you just you're doing it one time. It's like, you know, you're building up a life cycle you know, sort of a lifestyle of how we do, how we be, how we follow Jesus, how we follow God, you know. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be long either. It can be short.
00:16:16
Speaker
If kids, so this is more for probably families, do a two minute little section, you know, do a three minute little section. It doesn't have to be 15 minutes. It doesn't have to be half an hour.
00:16:27
Speaker
It's, it is, as you've just said, Beck, more about the consistency and Maddie. Every, every day we do something, it's like, you know, water on a rock. i think um I think our culture talks a little bit about how we should, you know, we shouldn't do something unless we feel it.
00:16:42
Speaker
But yeah the Bible actively teaches that we have routines and these actions will shape and guide our lives and shape our hearts and our devotions. So that's what we model to our kids by bringing them constantly on Sunday, by opening the word with them. yeah And I think that was really encouraging as well when you said about when, you know, when when mood and people aren't engaged, when the kids aren' engaging well, having that little bit of flexibility with the curriculum, you know, rather than going, oh, no, no, I have to complete every single aspect of this lesson. You really don't. Because it's on Oh, no, no. Because you really don't.
00:17:17
Speaker
Look, i I have the rigidity mind. I'm a very rigid thinker. So like this is where I struggle in that flexibility yeah but for me personally. So yeah it's freeing also to go, oh I can step back from this. like yeah Yeah, that's right.
00:17:31
Speaker
So, yes, I hope that's encouraging to our listeners as well. Look, yeah yeah um someone else, we obviously are a podcast that people listen to all over Perth, but also in rural and regional areas as well. And so one of the questions we've had brought in was asking for some tips on running a kids ministry program in a small rural church with kids from kindy to year six, all in together. How do I engage them all well?
00:17:57
Speaker
What can you share with us, Josie? I'll step back a little bit from that question and I'll just say, do not do it by yourself. Make sure that you get a helper. um You also need to be thinking about the future, like who's going to do it. Often in small country churches or smaller churches, it's just one person and it just gets too much, can but can get too much. Anyway, but apart from that, I think that you should work out how to use your time well.
00:18:25
Speaker
So work out what you can do together as a big group. um So singing, you can do a simple Bible story with everybody um and you can pray for each other or have a big group prayer.
00:18:38
Speaker
Then you might want to separate, and with your helper, you so you might want to separate and with the old take the older kids for a Bible study or a puzzle or a game or whatever, and then the younger kids for a craft, something like that.
00:18:51
Speaker
It is 100% okay to set a pattern and do that every week. it's very It's also very reassuring for the kids. So you can just say, this is what we do. we do this, this, this together, you know, whatever it is. And then we split up and we do a couple of things separately.
00:19:08
Speaker
That's why I'm saying get a helper, get someone to help you out. I love that. My mother-in-law runs runs the kids ministry on her own in a very small church, but she has been a teacher for i think 40 years.
00:19:23
Speaker
And what I like, again, like very similar to this question she Every week she's like, okay, we read a Bible question we read a bible story. Every kid gets a question, and you know but like it's to their age, and then they get a lolly, and then they can like make Lego.
00:19:41
Speaker
great. Yeah, and play in the bush. And you're like, that's I just love it. I'm like, it's simple, but it's like very sustainable. Yeah, that's that's what you want. You don't want to be burnt out and only be able to do it for 18 months or six months or a year.
00:19:58
Speaker
You want to be able to keep on going. And it lets the spirit work as well. It's not all putting it on you to do everything. You know, when you open the word, God's Holy Spirit is working in people's heart.
00:20:12
Speaker
So it allows him to do his work.
00:20:15
Speaker
I love that. That's great. Great ideas there. Thanks, Josie. That's right. Yeah. So on the opposite of that, we had another question. So this question says... We have a large kids ministry program, but they're all in kind of age group silos. How can you have those cross-age friendships and mentoring where the big kids are able to share it share their faith and take responsibility?
00:20:37
Speaker
Yeah. So this issue has been strongly influenced by our education system, I think. Our educational system is really very distinctly in age groups and there's not a lot of crossover that happens, although they do try at at some schools.
00:20:53
Speaker
But we can come at it biblically. We get to be freed from that type of thing where we're commanded to love each other despite our differences. And so this applies to kids' church and kids' ministries.
00:21:08
Speaker
It means that we get to be patient with those who are weak and we can learn this when we're young. so it's probably good to have an open conversation with the older kids about what they might be expected to do and also what younger children are like. They probably know they've got younger so siblings what smaller children are like. But if they don't have younger brothers and sisters, then it might be a bit difficult for them.
00:21:34
Speaker
So building in time to be together would be a good start. So again, that together time where you're singing or you're praying together or you're reading, having a Bible reading a simplified Bible story.
00:21:49
Speaker
Pairing up classes as well could be a good way forward. Maybe if you go for multi-age classes, though, you might just want to go boy, boy and girl, girl, just to minimise Some of the variety in a different way, if you know what I mean.
00:22:05
Speaker
And that way, you know, boys generally will like something a bit more active. you can go out there. I know some girls also like, you know, being active as well, but at least you can sort of manage that.
00:22:17
Speaker
I think it's probably good to consider what might be the effects of doing that. And so if you go from the outside end, so if you go for your six and kindy ah then you'll end up with year threes and fours together, which are sort of the same age. they're not really, you know,
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah. So you might just want to consider if you were going to pair up classes, how you would do that in a way that every kid gets to, you know, experience a bit of a gap but and caring for someone who's not one of them.
00:22:49
Speaker
sure there's some just like activities that they can join in to want, like a game where you've got a buddy up with a younger one do a little like activity race whatever it is. But, yeah you know,
00:23:01
Speaker
There's different ways you can engage that. That's, yeah, it's really helpful. hope that brings lots of people ideas as well. Because, you know, you talked about coming together and like singing or, you know, doing doing it, starting with a song or doing an activity of some sort. um So I was even just thinking about, you know, my son used to love and singing and, you know, i used to love listening to him join in a little song. And since since he's gotten a little older, he's just just not not that keen anymore. A little bit like, you know, too cool for school when he when they're singing. He doesn't doesn't really get into it. So, you know, how...
00:23:37
Speaker
Like this question is kind of related to that in that how have you gone trying to foster a spirit of worship and praise and kids? You know, the little kids love to sing and dance, the fours to sixes, are you know, are less less keen on that kind of thing. You know, how do you actually help them enjoy those activities? Yeah.
00:23:54
Speaker
So again, similar to some of the other answers, I think that one key would be persistence. I think that they won't do it if you do it once and you go, oh, no, that didn't work, so we're not going to do that again. i think you need to keep on going and you need to set the expectation that everyone will be singing.
00:24:12
Speaker
and that that is just something that we do. that That's something that we do at church, we sing, and we expect that you will do that too. I do think that live music is better than ah canned music, so a screen or just said like music off the internet.
00:24:30
Speaker
Even if it's just you playing a ukulele poorly, actually think that that is better than CD or Spotify or whatever.
00:24:41
Speaker
Kids or a guitar. so And also there are songs that have been written specifically for children. There are songwriters who do some really great work, more than Colin.
00:24:54
Speaker
So Colin is great. But there are other songwriters who are like Colin who write different types of music. And I think those types of songs that are written for kids rather than adult songs that are sung for kids, like sometimes they're great, but the kids' music is really is good for children, simple songs, simple tunes.
00:25:14
Speaker
I've got two examples or you. So when I was teaching, I started off teaching year twos and threes. They're very enthusiastic. I got out my guitar. So in education, you will do a music class because you've got to, you may have to teach music. and And my music teacher, she said, you just need to sing. I'm not a very good singer at all.
00:25:36
Speaker
soviet So I was like, okay, I'll give that a red hot go. Anyway, I was very surprised the kids did not comment. at No comment. No judgment. It was so beautiful.
00:25:51
Speaker
And so anyway, I had my year two, three class. I love the singing. We sang all the time. I'm not a very good guitar player, but you know, i hold the plectrum wrong. I don't even call it a plectrum. I call it a pick. Anyway, whatever. Anyway, was I don't even know what you're talking about.
00:26:04
Speaker
Me neither. I don't play guitar. here oh yeah i And I started playing my guitar and they were all like, we don't do this thing. But I gave it. I said, yes, we do, guys.
00:26:16
Speaker
Anyway, and within, i reckon, two weeks, two weeks, they were all singing loudly, enjoying the music, singing to God. Another example is at the start of last year I was doing a couple of just sessions with the kids at our church.
00:26:33
Speaker
And we had a girl who's very good musician and she was playing ukulele very well, much better than me. And she said to me, oh there's that kid at the back and he's not singing. And I said to her, i challenge ye to get him singing.
00:26:47
Speaker
Anyway, within two or three Sundays, she came racing up to me and she said, guess what? That kid who wouldn't sing, he sang today. And I was like, yes, So, I mean, the key is persistence. And he he's like a cool kid, you know, like he's he's seen it all. He's like not impressed, you know, with anything that you do. He's world-weary at the age of years.
00:27:07
Speaker
Exactly. So, I do think persistence is hard to resist for children. Yeah, in this area. So, I say keep going. ah It is like so encouraging that. Yeah.
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, and and you know what? I think it's that's what's great about, you know, like a lot of churches have the kids in the service for the first few songs. All the adults are singing. Yeah. like And then you've got a couple of these little like kids that somehow know half of these songs are by heart. Like they must be sung at home as well. Yeah.
00:27:39
Speaker
And it's just really like there's always these few little kids and they're standing up so tall and just looking around and like, oh, I'm singing with the adults. It's just like, I know the words too. It's good. Anyway, so excited to hear.
00:27:53
Speaker
Gosh, and just as like an observation, like so I became a Christian later in life. Like so my first experience of going to church, I mean, later in life. I mean, like I was 18, so like I didn't do kids' church, but I remember going to church and people were singing and you don't see people sing in any other area of life like that.
00:28:11
Speaker
And at first I was like, this is the weirdest thing ever. And it took me a very long time to even sing along. was like, this is embarrassing. This is very embarrassing. But now, I mean, I've been...
00:28:23
Speaker
uh what like 18 years yeah I'm like I've been in church like 18 years and I'm like I love the singing sometimes I go I don't even get to hear the sermon and I'm there like singing and I'm having a great time so yeah yeah yeah I think we we're a person who sings loudly and badly but we love them that's right ah I told you it's a enthusiasm li I'm like that's my like core skill That's what I do too. I just, I don't have a very good voice, but I do bring volume, volume and you pronounce. I feel really sorry for people who stand in front of me. i'm like, say sorry, everyone. Except for like, if you've ever been with Rach Dedman in church, she sings well and loudly.
00:29:04
Speaker
life And it's a good comment. You're like, oh, I know she's missing the train. Because do you know, you know that you're not at that level. You're like, thank you. and I know. You're like, oh, I hear the notes I'm not hitting. Whatever praise. That's right. We'll receive it out of tune or in tune and he loves it.
00:29:21
Speaker
I can guarantee you. That's the Bible says that. Other people know. Right. So there's not really a good segue, so I'm just going to like make it weird. ah The next question is not about worship music.
00:29:33
Speaker
However, what do you suggest for someone who's keen to be a kids ministry, like coordinator, pastor, and a paid role, As it doesn't seem like there's a set degree or path for it, like how would this person go around being trained and equipped for it?
00:29:49
Speaker
So you're right, there isn't really. From what I've seen, I've done a bit of investigation into it and there doesn't seem to be a path for kids ministry training, ah so it's like a formal learning situation.
00:30:01
Speaker
At the moment, because there's nothing, i would recommend if you've got a degree, i would do two grad dips, one in education and one in theology. You don't necessarily need all the Hebrew and the you know like that the extensive theological knowledge, but it is helpful to have some education experience. It teaches you a lot about children, how they learn, and also and dealing with different stakeholders as well. It just helps you to consider parents, admin, like that and church leadership in this case.
00:30:34
Speaker
But you do want to have some knowledge of the Bible. So that's two years if you've got a degree. If you don't have a good degree, I'd suggest doing it. And if you're coming out of school, i'd definitely go do a Bachelor of Education and then like a graduate in theology as well or a Master's, depending on how much time you've got. You know, you can be studying for a long, long time to get good at this stuff.
00:30:57
Speaker
ah Yeah, that that would be my suggestion.
00:31:02
Speaker
like that. I like the recommendation around actually doing like the educational side of it because if you think about it, is it is a lovely parallel. Yeah.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah. If you do the grad dip in theology first as well, it means that you can come at it from, come at education from a biblical point of view. is It helps you recognise how you can work the secular sort of educational system or teaching into a biblical context or a church context.
00:31:37
Speaker
So it helps you come and critique that. the way education is taught and presented. Not all of it is great. um So you do need a bit of discernment to work out what how we can use that in a church context and to teach about Bible.
00:31:57
Speaker
So that that's probably the way I would do it. But it's a bit difficult if you don't have a bachelor to do it that way. I have a question. In the teaching course, do they teach you the voice, like the teacher voice?
00:32:12
Speaker
I think you learn that in the prac and also in your first year of teaching. You just go, I was very surprised when I started teaching. every They were all, I said, okay, everyone, and they all just stopped talking.
00:32:25
Speaker
I was like, oh, very effective. Okay. I have a ride. So much power. I'll only use my powers for good. Yeah.
00:32:35
Speaker
and a court It did decline throughout the year because then you just, you sometimes you do lose them. but Anyway, yeah. ah you say It was the guitar. No, no, I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah.
00:32:51
Speaker
No, it's it's really interesting, I think, as well. Like, obviously, then you are having that education background. You can also be aware of what kind of things that kids are exposed to during the week and what, you know, techniques, teaching techniques are helpful.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yes. I guess as well, you know, you're also able to, yeah, having the having the theological point of view, you can discern the fact that, yeah, like by God's common grace, our secular society has amazing tools and has, you know, great, effective and wonderful gifts that we can use in the church as well. So, yeah yeah you know, we don't need to reject the secular system in that sense, but being able to wisely, you know, that's right pair that together.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah. Bec, did you have any other questions on that, the training and equipping thing?
00:33:48
Speaker
I thought my last question gave it away when I was like, tell me about the voice. ah up It could be other strategies. I think always go low. Go low.
00:34:00
Speaker
Excuse me. What do you think? You know, just keep the low. High pitch.
00:34:08
Speaker
get My heart rate went up a little bit. Yeah. Exactly. taking this. I have three boys. I'm just like, it's all about the rhetorical question. What were you thinking?
00:34:19
Speaker
See? Low voice. What are you doing right now? What are you meant to be doing right now? And they're like, ah. They're like, I don't even know. That's their They don't know. this is it but actually don't know.
00:34:33
Speaker
i don't know. I don't know how I got here.
00:34:37
Speaker
Ah. Are there also any, you know, short, you know, there's a few conferences or conventions around that if people are just interested. Can you recommend anything?
00:34:50
Speaker
So the Perth Children's Chemistry Conferences is, I think that happens in March. That's really great. It's the 21st of March this year. that' And Josie, Josie, don't you run training?
00:35:05
Speaker
Isn't this like part of the thing that you do? I do, but it's more of it it's more of a bespoke type thing so people can just get in contact with me and I'll come to your shirt and I will run a training for you.
00:35:20
Speaker
So I've done it with a couple of churches. So if you if you're just free. Yes, that's true. So if you check me some training, i'll I can come out and help you out with a bit of training for your leaders and, yeah.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you kind of, like, train leaders and then do you also help them, like, implement the curriculum that you've written or? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you have issues with, I can help you out. Well, you know.
00:35:46
Speaker
I'm not a superwoman. ah like You sound like a PhD woman. But i'll do I'll do my, you know, I'll give it a red hot go. Yeah, excellent. Excellent.
00:35:59
Speaker
That is great to know. So, if you need extra help, contact Josie. We will get you some lovely stuff at the end of the episode. yeah Also, it be great to put up a link as well for me. the Perth Children's Ministry Convention, because that's really helpful for people interested. um And there's also a live stream option available for rural people this year, and which is great to know. Yeah, Bill. Look, it takes a lot of dedication to be keen to, you know, write a whole curriculum, to be, you know, willing to go out and train people. So where, Josie, where did your passion for kids ministry come from and how do you sustain it?
00:36:35
Speaker
ah Well, I'm quite far from the coalface now of kids ministry and I'm probably further than what you guys are. So if you're in teaching, I'm not really near that.
00:36:47
Speaker
and So I don't actually get any of the delights. So yes, there are challenges, but there are also really great things about hanging out with the kids each week and seeing their excitement and their questions.
00:36:58
Speaker
seeing them grow. And I don't get that. So anyway, that actually is a really great thing that, you know, keeps you going when you're working in kids' ministry. But what sustains me mostly is the Bible i really have enjoyed working through the Bible and I find that really encouraging that God gives us all gifts and he invites us to use them.
00:37:26
Speaker
And so I have wondered how I could use what God's given me to help the church and to honour God as well. So that's been a driving factor for me. And so whenever feel a bit lonely or it's not working, then I just remember that that I'm here helping God's people to teach their children, teach the next generation about what he's done for us and how he's worked through history to bring about his great plans and to bring Jesus into fruition, like all of that.
00:37:58
Speaker
So that's what keeps me going. And also my family, I've got a very supportive family who... And a very supportive team too who have helped me along the way. i so one So my husband, he has just been so great and generous.
00:38:14
Speaker
He funds everything, which is so lovely. And then i went to my friend who makes everything look beautiful and I said to her maybe six years ago, do you want to help me with this? I can't really describe it.
00:38:26
Speaker
it's going to take a long time. I don't know how long, years, but did you want to help me do this thing that I don't know what it is? And she said, yeah. Those are the best kind of friends.
00:38:39
Speaker
life language sorry So, so yeah, that's right. And I have another, like another, so my brother as well helps out. I've had people from church who help out too. And I'm really thankful for God's kind provision in all of it. And that also helps me keep going. Oh, fantastic, Josie.
00:39:00
Speaker
I suppose kind of, yeah, this is almost like a parallel because like, yeah, you've got that that beautiful passion. Like how, what the other question we got is like, how do you help other people become passionate about our kids ministry and retain leaders for the long term? Kind of not just when their kids are small, but actually because they, that's the thing they love to do. i feel like kids ministry has spain it's been sort of put into the category of gifting.
00:39:28
Speaker
um but Which is unfortunate because if you look at Deuteronomy and you think about Moses who guy who was giving instructions to everyone, he says early on, he says, you need to tell your children about Deuteronomy.
00:39:44
Speaker
what God has done for us, how he brought us out of Egypt through the Red Sea. He brought us to Mount Sinai. He gave us his law. We're in this special relationship with him. So Moses reminds everybody, just as they're about to go into the promised land in Deuteronomy, and he's speaking to everybody, including the people who don't have kids yet or whatever. He's talking to everybody.
00:40:09
Speaker
So it's everyone's, actually everybody's job to tell the next generation about what God has done in history and what God has done in the Bible and what God's done in our lives. We're the ones who've seen it.
00:40:20
Speaker
So I think we probably need to move it a little bit out of the category of gifting and we need to be thinking about, okay, if it's everyone's job, then how do we do it?
00:40:32
Speaker
And so it is hard to, it can be hard to motivate people, but I think it is a whole church task. And even if,
00:40:43
Speaker
Even if what you do is you just talk to the kids in your church. I know I loved growing up in my church. We didn't have a lot of kids our age. But I had lots of aunties and uncles, not real aunties and uncles, but like church aunties and uncles and grandmas and granddads.
00:40:59
Speaker
And we loved it. It was so great. They would always come and we'd have a chat and joke. And you just knew that you you had this family that wasn't your extended family. it was another family that God provided for you.
00:41:11
Speaker
And so equipping the church to do this then maybe opens it up for everybody to be involved and to keep on going as well.
00:41:24
Speaker
So maybe we need to take it out of that sort of gifting category and just take it more as a responsibility that this is something that Christians do. We tell the next generation. We might do it formally, which is not a problem if you've got, you know, if you've got a great resource that equips you.
00:41:41
Speaker
Or we can do it informally, but everyone should be doing it actually. i love that. I mean, I would just put myself in like that category who've just been wanting I'm not, know what I mean? I'm like, I raised my kids and I like, you know, and i I'm like, I was going to and I love them obviously.
00:41:59
Speaker
But, and I talked to them about Jesus and we read the Bible story, but like, I've never like at home, you know, done a craft or like, you know, whatever. But I will happy to have like the, one of my kids is like, you know, loves to ask all kinds of questions. Yeah.
00:42:20
Speaker
And sometimes I'm like, that's a really good question. Like, or he'll catch you be like, what's a, prop you know, like, oh, this morning he was asking me about profits and, you know, what, why people didn't like the profits and I was making breakfast and I was like, I really got to think about this. Yeah.
00:42:36
Speaker
Like, Ahab and Elijah, and yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would, that's, I've never thought about it. the The point of that, like, tangent is I've never thought about it like that. Where you're like, oh yeah. That's kind of everybody's job. Like, you're just walking along the road. Like, yep, you can be talking about, you know, the profits, or you can be making breakfast, and it doesn't have to be, like,
00:42:57
Speaker
a perfectly aligned craft and beautiful thing and formal teaching time yeah yeah yeah like which is amazing for the people who are you know that is their gifting and they're good at it but it's very encouraging to me because I'm like I feel like I'm not naturally good at it don't worry no I don't I'm not a craft person either i have to make up all these crafts for my thing The hard. Respect.
00:43:25
Speaker
So, so hard. Yeah, that's right. And I would much rather sing a song or play a game. I'm just like, let's go and play, you know, talk of mine, whatever. Takes a lot of effort to set up craft. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it does. yeah where is do I love people who love craft.
00:43:41
Speaker
So do I. It's so good. Yeah, people are golden. You're like, yeah please, I've coordinated them. I'm like, please, please do whatever you think is good. Please do whatever you feel led. Whatever you will do is better than what I would do. Oh, yeah.
00:43:54
Speaker
Definitely. I think i'm I love what you said about the community mindedness that we as a community need to be thinking as a family, like yeah um in the sense that we are also being models to other people's kids, yeah not just our own or not. yeah if we're If we're someone who doesn't have kids,
00:44:12
Speaker
Yeah. You know, that we have a place to be be meditating on the scripture, to be encouraging others on the scriptures as well. You know, like ah my side of the family, not Christian. And it really delights me when i have other people in our lives who are also going, you know, like, this is what we read in the Bible today or. Yes. Oh, remind us what the cross is. Oh, it's about Jesus. And, you know, my son was just drawing a cross the other day and was talking about these things. And, you know, it's it's a really wonderful way of my my son also and my daughter also knowing that it's not just us being weird, like, you know, talking about the Bible because there are like there are other people. It really encourages me. Well, that's the only one. Yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
Yeah, we're not but not weird. Well, we are weird. But, you know, it's not, this is a thing that this is worth hanging on to, you know. And it's me saying it. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Yes, it's so great.
00:45:08
Speaker
So it is amazing testimony to the kids and a great support for the families. Yes. so we always appreciate that. Yeah, yep, yep. Our final question is a little bit ah a bit of a longer question and I'm just going to read it straight out as it is.
00:45:25
Speaker
So how do you keep faithfulness and enthusiasm for kids' ministry when the same is hard at church? I've been horrified by how so many so-called Christian leaders have fallen in the last few years.
00:45:38
Speaker
Where God is seemingly on the side of the empire, not the vulnerable. Children have not been protected and people have failed to speak up at all levels. It's left me frankly embarrassed to even be a Christian and to start pulling apart what I've been taught.
00:45:52
Speaker
How can I continue or should i Well, I think of course of course you should continue. This is not something that we should give up on.
00:46:04
Speaker
and the But the failures of others can derail it can derail our own faithfulness, but it shouldn't because we're not holding up these other people to say how good they are. We're actually holding up God to say how good he is.
00:46:21
Speaker
And even though it's really disappointing when our brothers and sisters are failing or falling, it's God that we're serving. And he doesn't disappoint and he doesn't fail us.
00:46:32
Speaker
So we're called to be faithful and serve him even when others are not, even when others are unfaithful, even when others are falling. We probably should also have though a level of humility because these sins are never too far from all of us. so we've all got regrets and we've all got sins and some are bigger than others, but we are all trusting in Jesus, trusting that his blood has covered us.
00:47:00
Speaker
So I think that we we look over and we see those we see people who do fail. we pray for them And then we keep looking at God, at Jesus, who is the perfect, who's our perfect sacrifice, who's paid for our sins and for theirs actually as well if they repent.
00:47:20
Speaker
So I think it's about where we look and that should help us. when And also with the children as well. And I agree with you that that the people who are most affected are the least and the little, but God cares about those people and he will bring about his justice in his time.
00:47:42
Speaker
So we can trust in that too. but I hope that is a helpful answer for that question. I love it. It was a tricky question. and Yeah. Well done.
00:47:53
Speaker
Well done. But I think that's true. It's like actually... In the long run, like, I think it's okay to look at some things and be like, you know what? Like, that thing is actually evil. Like, that thing that people, you know, people who prey on children, things like that, those things are actually evil. And I think there's something very comforting about knowing that, like, God sees. God sees everything. he knows. He's going to deal with it perfectly. Like, you either experience God's mercy all you experience, like, his just wrath.
00:48:30
Speaker
And I think, yeah, like, you know, there are there will always be corruption in, like, our societies, but there's a measure of, like, things won't always work out, you know, or be brought to justice. But I think there's a real comfort in knowing ultimately they will.
00:48:48
Speaker
no That's right. And holding the course, I think, you know, like a boat. Yeah. that gets pushed around by the winds, but we have, we've got our eyes set on Jesus and that's that he's running before us. He's, he's already been there and he's already done it. And that's who we're following. We're not, we're not swayed by these people who, who are not following Jesus. We're following Jesus himself, you know, like we're in a boat.
00:49:15
Speaker
I guess if you like, when you're finding that hard, the Bible calls us to pray about it. to ask him for wisdom to ask him for perseverance and ask him for faith. And I guess that's, I love that, you know, fixing your eyes on Jesus that you remind remind people to because even just we're reminded that that he is more powerful than anything, like anything that someone might experience as a victim.
00:49:41
Speaker
There is nothing that is out of his reach to redeem in the sense that he can he will always be there for those people. And so that's just so comforting. And we trust in a God who is worth, you know, worth worth following. And he's with us as well. So we were just talking today about Joseph, who gets put into prison and he's and he tells these guys dreams and and he says, please don't forget me, I'm stuck in prison. And the guy leaves prison and he forgets Jacob.
00:50:14
Speaker
Forget. Mm-hmm. For two whole years he's stuck in prison and doesn't get out. And this guy's forgotten. And it's not until Pharaoh has a dream where and the the servant goes, oh, hang on. Hey, I've got a guy.
00:50:26
Speaker
He's in prison. We'd better go get him and he'll he'll help you out. You know. But Joseph had to sit there for two years. He was in prison. He hadn't even done anything wrong. But God, it says right at the beginning, that God was with Joseph. And so God is always with us, even when we're not being treated as we should. And God's not being treated as he should be treated.
00:50:48
Speaker
So we can trust him that too, I think. Mm-hmm. That's a really great reminder and i a really great thing to finish on as well as we, you know, in this episode we're talking about kids ministry, you know, and even as we reflect on um on all these things we've been thinking about and teaching our children in both Matthew and Matthew 19, Mark 10, where, you know, Jesus invites little children to come to it and invites us come to him as little children. So kids can all be such an encouragement to adults. Kids, for me just such a delight.
00:51:23
Speaker
They delight the Lord. They can can also delight us. So thank you so much for joining us for this episode, Josie. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you. You've talked a little bit about the training that you've you're running this year. do you have anything else to add and what's the best way for women to get in contact with you about your curriculum and your training?
00:51:43
Speaker
I don't have anything that I run in particular. I just more do it as if churches want it or need it You can just get in contact me. My website is livingwords.net.au. Don't go to.com. That goes somewhere else. I don't know where. ah So.net.au. It's a web.
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. Or you can email hello i at livingwords.net again,.au.
00:52:10
Speaker
Met like the fish, you know. fish Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Think of that. Nice. Yes, nice. The more biblical website. Thank you. I appreciate that.
00:52:25
Speaker
That's it from us, friends. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March to November from Christian Women in Western Australia.
00:52:47
Speaker
If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys.