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When You Are Drowning in Good Works
131 Plays3 months ago
Rach and Bec chat with Amy Stopher, who is on staff at Providence City Church, and one of our regular writers at Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. We got a few variations of today’s topic in our end of year survey, but was asked most eloquently in this one, “It would be interesting to hear a discussion on how different Christian women are experiencing the impact of hustle culture on church life and ministry. I feel like there is a disconnect between getting the rest I need as a limited human, spiritual/social/physical/mental rest, and what a Sunday looks like within the modern church, particularly for those who participate in ministry during gatherings. It could be way too specific to my own experience, but I just wondered if it’s something that other women are also wrestling with?”
Join Amy Stopher, Rach and Bec as we explore the idea that if God made us with limits, for our good before the fall, and commands us to rest, how do we weigh up work, ministry, and family commitments? How do we rest amongst hustle culture?
In today’s episode, we explore:
🎧 The temptations we face in church and ministry amongst a broader hustle culture (see: pride, fear of man, people-pleasing and wanting to be seen as high capacity).
🎧 Truths that help us make wise(r) choices about work, family, and ministry commitments without ending up doing nothing or burning out from doing everything.
🎧 Practical nitty-gritty things that have helped us to rest when we should rest and work when we should work.
Check out the show notes for everything mentioned in the show.
If you enjoyed this episode, sign up for honest stories in your inbox on Wednesdays (March through November) from local Christian women. It’s all free 💛
If you want to send us compliments or constructive suggestions, get in touch at rebecca@storiesidtellyouatdinner.com.au.
If you love the podcast, writing a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify helps other women find us. Thank you!
Music: Come Back by Ketsa. Licensed under a Creative Commons License Non-Commercial, No-Derivatives 4.0 International License.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The After Dinner Mint'
00:00:00
Speaker
He's not saying you have to do X or Y most of the time, but he might say... Yeah, will you will you in three months' time say i wish I said no to that, which I have definitely said that to him so many times.
00:00:19
Speaker
This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
00:00:34
Speaker
It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not a self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community, to encourage you to do that with your God and your community.
00:00:47
Speaker
Hey guys, it's Bec. Welcome back to Season 2 of the After Dinner Mint Podcast. We're so excited to be back in your ear buds. I'm here today with Rach and
Meet the Hosts: Amy, Rachel, and Bec
00:01:00
Speaker
Amy Stouffer. If you guys could introduce yourselves. Amy, you can go first.
00:01:04
Speaker
So my name's Amy. i serve on the ministry team at Providence City and i grew up in Perth. my parents still live in the house I grew up in. i live not with them, but I'm not married. I live on my own, live with my dog, Billy.
00:01:22
Speaker
And right now I'm drinking a cup of Bengal Spice Tea. Have you guys ever tried it? I reckon it is like... It is one of the best teas in the world. You should try it. It's not caffeinated, it's like a herbal tea, but it tastes kind of sweet, but there's no sugar in it. It's like a bit like chai. Anyway.
00:01:42
Speaker
I'm so sorry. I do not like tea. Tea is just leaf water. Yeah. Well, you might have liked it, but okay. but i Sorry, that was actually a cackle. Okay.
00:01:54
Speaker
yeah Oh, me? I think it's great. Right. Hello. I'm Rachel. I also grew up in Perth and my parents also live in the same house that I grew up in. Whoa. There you go. Yes.
00:02:09
Speaker
I'm an emergency nurse by day. Well, actually, sometimes by night. It depends. drink And a husband. That's it. That's me. Bec? Yeah, nice. I'm Bec. I'm the founder of Stories I Tell You at Dinner. I'm a wife to Zach and a mum to three little boys. I've trained as a clinical psych and worked in all the depressing places, but currently, you know working in the home, having fun with the magazine. Life is
Impact of Hustle Culture on Christian Women
00:02:32
Speaker
good.
00:02:32
Speaker
So today's topic we got in our end of year survey a couple of times, but it was like most eloquently kind of covered in this one. It would be interesting to hear a discussion on how different Christian women are experiencing the impact of hustle culture on church life and ministry.
00:02:48
Speaker
I feel like there's a disconnect between getting the rest I need as a limited human, like the spiritual, social, physical, mental rest, and what Sunday looks like within the modern church, particularly for those who participate in ministry during gatherings.
00:03:01
Speaker
It could be way too specific to my own experience, but I just wondered if it's something that other women are wrestling with. So when i was thinking about this topic, Amy was the first person to come to mind because we've kind of texted back and forth with books and articles, like quite a lot. And we interviewed her in season one about her experience of burnout and ministry, which we'll link in the show notes.
00:03:23
Speaker
Also, Rach, you, me, and Britt chatted about this in one of the earlier episodes. I think we called it, i Don't Want to Optimize Anymore. So kind of like to think about this chat as a part two to that, more like,
00:03:34
Speaker
If I don't want to go back to burnout land, how do I live now? And exploring the idea that like if God made us with limits before the fall for our good and commands us to rest, like how do we weigh up? Like ministry, work and family commitments, like how do we rest amongst hustle culture?
00:03:50
Speaker
So i think like if we kind of start broad um and then we can get into more specifics, like what are the temptations you face in church and ministry among like a broader kind of hustle culture?
Struggles with Overcommitment and Pride
00:04:03
Speaker
Rach, no pressure, but you get to go first, mate.
00:04:08
Speaker
I think for me, my biggest temptation being, doing things for the desire to be liked by everyone. Because I would like everyone to be friends and I would like everyone to like me and to not be angry with me. And so i will very often do things that I don't necessarily not want to do but it may be adding another good thing when I don't have room for it because like, oh, i just...
00:04:34
Speaker
I just don't want anyone, i just want everyone to be happy and I don't want to be the source of people's like lack of happiness and especially in the church when you know all the ministries everybody needs more help and you go well I technically have the time i could, i could do more. i think that's my biggest temptation is which I suppose the bible would call the fear of man would say is that I just don't want to be the source of disappointment because that would make me feel bad.
00:05:00
Speaker
And then in my day-to-day life, my temptation in the hustle of life is to be as busy as possible to distract myself from my own thoughts.
00:05:11
Speaker
I don't want to sit and talk with her because she's nuts. I don't want to listen to her.
00:05:17
Speaker
It's Blaise Pascal quote, isn't it? Like like most of men's problems the inability to sit in a room quietly by yourself. you like Yeah, 100%. And I do struggle with that a lot with between my phone and my work and doing things that I don't need to do is a lot of just, okay, what do I do to keep myself busy so I don't have to contemplate more like the deeper things of life or, yeah, those those sort of things that i that I would like to avoid. Yeah.
00:05:47
Speaker
and m Amy?
00:05:53
Speaker
or I reckon what what Rachel said has really resonated with me. Like I think i can also be driven by wanting people to like me or like doing the thing that is like a good girl would do, like for want of a better way of describing it. Like that's what I should do and so I'll do that. and I do reckon another one that's maybe the partner that goes with fear is pride. Oh, And so...
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think yes sometimes I take things on because I want to be seen to be taking them on or because I want to be in control of that thing or, it probably expresses itself in lots of different ways.
00:06:32
Speaker
But, yeah, I think because i i want to have a good reputation or whatever the thing is, but I'm not content to kind of be ordinary.
00:06:43
Speaker
e want to be extraordinary. Yes. Oh. Now, I remember, Amy, from your original interview, um like when we interviewed you to podcast, you were like, I'm a high capacity person. Like that was, you know, part of your identity. And I was like, remember resonating with that. I was like, oh, yeah, like it's a lot of what Rachel was saying.
00:07:03
Speaker
Like, oh, i you know, I want everyone to be happy. I don't want anyone to be unhappy with me. In fact, what I really want, more than being kind, I want people to see that I look unkind.
00:07:15
Speaker
minimum I want everyone to never be unhappy with me. i want everyone to think that I'm really kind and never be unhappy with you. But also I want to be like high capacity.
00:07:27
Speaker
I want to be like, I can do this. I got this. I'll just add it to my list. I've like ticking boxes all the time. And you know, it's terrible to admit. But when you lift up, like why am I so busy? And you look under that rock, you're like, There's like other things in there. But those are the two big ones.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. hundred percent. There you go So I hard relate to the pride of it all. You're like, am, I'm fine. I'm totally fine. I can take on more. Like I am fine. And also then, then also the the free gift that comes along with that. Yeah. The free gift of, well, I'm really busy. So if I'm really busy and I'm doing a lot of stuff, I then get a free pass to complain about it.
00:08:04
Speaker
o um yeah because I'm doing more than other people and I'm very busy. So, and I'm doing, if especially in ministry things, you go, I'm doing a lot of ministry things and other people aren't doing ministry things and I am. So I get extra Jesus points and he's going to like me more.
00:08:19
Speaker
happy time Which is not true. And also like, if you're doing like lots of things and you're like, oh, this thing that I'm doing is hard. I could peg on a new commitment. That's also a fun thing.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yes. um Do you know, like, putting i want to put my pastor hat on for a second or, like, my church ministry worker hat on for a second.
Clarity in Commitments
00:08:43
Speaker
Like, I resonate with this a person who goes to church, but my role at our church or one of my roles at our church is literally to ask people to do stuff. Like, i oversee our teams and leaders. and And actually one of the greatest gifts someone can give to leaders at church, whether they're paid or not paid, is to be really clear with their yeses and nos. So to like a quick no, someone who's like, I don't have capacity to do that, or that's actually, you know, there are, I can see these three needs and actually that one's a much better fit for me or whatever. Like that is such a gift that,
00:09:21
Speaker
And then the person who doesn't reply to the message or doesn't give you an answer because they don't know how to say no or the person who takes on something they don't actually have capacity for and then they pull out three months later or like,
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, so someone who can let their yes be yes and their no be no and communicate that clearly is such a blessing to the people who are leading you at church because it just, it means they're not spending their time.
00:09:46
Speaker
it helps them spend their time better. Anyway, that's what my aside from how I experienced that. me You know, from the other point of view. No, i I'm with you. Like I think having only just in the last couple of years like coordinated a playgroup,
00:10:03
Speaker
And then even starting with stories, but just having people who are like, yep, I can do that. I can't do that. Yeah, I resonate hard with that. It's actually really helpful.
00:10:14
Speaker
ah have come to really appreciate people who are like, I can't do that. Maybe come talk to me like in a year's time, talk to me six months' time. i am interested, but it's no right now. It's really good. Like I really respect those people.
00:10:30
Speaker
Well, yeah, and also I should say at our church, like just as often, like all the time people are like, I'd love to do that. Thanks so much for asking me. Like i think it's really easy to ask the same, you know, 10 people at church to do stuff because you see them doing stuff. But then there are other, you know, there are other people maybe who don't get asked to do stuff who if you ask them would be like, yeah, I'd love to serve in that way. Thanks for considering me. Like people say that a lot as well.
00:10:55
Speaker
Oh, thats that's really nice. and Yeah. Yeah. Which I think that kind of does lead us really nicely into probably the second question, which is coming a bit more specific.
Finding Security in Jesus, Not Busyness
00:11:06
Speaker
But, and maybe Amy will start with you, but what are some truths that have helped you weigh up kind of those work, family, ministry commitments without ending up like doing nothing or burning out from kind of doing everything?
00:11:19
Speaker
Like what's kind of helped you to make wise choices about your schedule and rest? Hmm.
00:11:28
Speaker
Maybe one thing to say that kind of pairs up with what rached kicked us off with in terms of fear and then it's partner of pride I reckon maybe the the thing in the gospel that helps us with that uh is to know that actually our security and satisfaction can only be found in Jesus and so if I'm looking to my busyness or my ministry or my capacity or any of you know anything related to be the place where I
00:12:03
Speaker
am finding my salvation or finding my significance as a person or, yeah, that's, they, like those things can't bear the weight of my security or my satisfaction.
00:12:18
Speaker
but That can only be found in Jesus and knowing him. Yeah. And so I think coming back, fixing my eyes on him, remembering the riches of Jesus,
00:12:30
Speaker
the love that God has poured out for me in him, not because of anything I've done, but because of how like loving he is, how how generous he is.
00:12:41
Speaker
I really like that. And it reminds me a lot of, just as you were talking, like I interviewed Jill, one of our writers. So that's, she talked about like her experience of compassion fatigue and feeling like, oh, like, so the interviewer is actually called, when you're angry, you're the one to fix everything.
00:12:59
Speaker
So she was like, I feel like I'm being dumped by a wave. Like, you know, that's where she was. Hmm.
Advice on Embracing Silence and Rest
00:13:05
Speaker
And as the interview progressed, what she talked about was that shift in identity where she was like, oh, actually, it's like being planted, like a tree being planted by the river.
00:13:15
Speaker
Just like, oh I'm secure in... who God has made me to be that he's made me with limits. Like he, I know exactly who I am and I'm not relying on these, the things that I'm doing to give me like identity because I mean, it's like trying to catch the wind. You're like, if i if I want everyone to be happy, that shifts all the time.
00:13:39
Speaker
Like I can't hang a whole identity on that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. and Yeah, Rach, what are your thoughts on that? Like what kind of things?
00:13:54
Speaker
i've just I came to this discussion to get tips to help me with this.
00:14:00
Speaker
um Oh, because I, yeah, no, I, yeah. I listened to a very good podcast episode recently, um and I bring this person up every time I talk because I think she's fabulous. um But Felicia Masonheimer had a, what's it called, a conference.
00:14:18
Speaker
at One of the speakers in the conference is one of the episodes, and the whole episode was called like Hustle Culture and this whole thing. This entire concept. And the woman who was speaking was a, in ministry, she was an apologist and sort of like a travelling speaker and stuff in the church. And, yeah, she found herself in this cycle of busyness and And the thing that was genuinely helpful, because I love a bit of practical advice, because I love a good sermon, but you I just want you give me something to do.
00:14:52
Speaker
Give me a job. And she said she started sitting in silence and sitting in silence in the presence of God, not just sitting in silence, but just she put a timer on for five minutes and would just sit and be still.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I have attempted to start doing that. And then what she said was she's now increased the time. um And so she's up to half an hour now, but of just sitting and being still because I am very bad at being still.
00:15:19
Speaker
And I will seek activity at any, at anywhere. Yeah, so that has been, you know, somewhat helpful. It's very much a work in progress. And I feel like I keep learning the same lessons over and over again. Like this week, I literally have worked eight days in a row because I just keep picking up extra shifts because I'm like, well, I'm not doing anything. My kids are at school. Like I could just work because it only affects me. Doesn't it? You know, and I've learned that lesson before. if That's not a good idea. But yet this week I have once again done it again because I was like, well, you know, little extra money, sure.
00:15:56
Speaker
So essentially what I'm saying is i have not much advice for this, but I'm trying to sit in silence more. Can I, one of the things that that's, one of the thoughts that that's prompted in my mind, Rach, if you're me to piggyback, oh yeah I reckon and this might not be exactly what's going on for the woman who suggested that technique, but I reckon one of the other truths in the Bible that helps us is that we're creatures and God is the creator like not me and I reckon that's one of the reasons that I struggle to stop is that I i think I need to do it because it's up to me to do it yeah so it actually also affects my ability to pray so I actually like sometimes have to set a timer to pray
00:16:37
Speaker
not to stop me from praying for too long, but to kind of say, you've got permission to pray for this long. Like this time is set aside to pray. And so that means that any other thing that you think you need to get on and do that's not the most important thing for you to do right now. Because, i mean, even though praying, if I think through the theology, i'm like, yeah, that's the most important thing to do. It's not how I act actually. I just think I need to get on and do it because it's up to me. God needs me to do X, Y, Z. Yeah, and there's a discipline in stopping and going, nah, God's in control actually. yeah He's the one who's holding all things together.
00:17:20
Speaker
i can stop because I'm his creature and not. Doesn't depend on me. Bec, what about you? Yeah, i would hard relate to what you're saying, Amy, like I think just the concept, both those things, I think, A, the concept of limits, you're like, yeah, God made me with limits for my good.
00:17:44
Speaker
Like before the fall, like they're not a design flaw, they're actually a way that he has made me. And if you look at Jesus, you're like, he didn't heal everyone, he didn't convert everyone,
00:17:58
Speaker
Like, he basically didn't really leave Israel. Like, he did everything God required of him. And, like, he went away to pray, like, a lot. Like, he'd do something really cool and then he'd be like, I've got to go away and pray again. And people would be like, wait, where are you going? Why? And I think, like you, Rach, I'd find myself just, like, in these cycles again and again. I'm like, why I running so much faster everybody else? Why can't I sit still?
00:18:28
Speaker
And I think just actually that thing of sitting there and praying and being like, okay, I pray, you know, this is the time I pray. I pray every day. And just being like, I don't know, like, can you help me to understand why am I so busy?
00:18:46
Speaker
And talking to people in my life and asking them for like actual honest feedback, like is, uncomfortable but I think it has and I'm like I'm not there yet but I think it has for a measure of change that I haven't had before yeah you're like what has God actually given me to do what am I actually responsible for Yeah, and I think that there's this Elizabeth Elliot quote, and i just think I have thought about it a lot.
00:19:20
Speaker
And she's like, one reason we we are so harried and hurried is that we make yesterday and tomorrow our business when all that legitimately concerns us is today. If we really have too much to do, there are some items on the agenda which God did not put there.
00:19:35
Speaker
Let us submit the list to him and ask him to indicate which items we must delete. There is always time to do the will of God. If we're too busy to do that, we're too busy. And I think I was just thinking, looking at the question of what has helped you make wise choices about your schedule and rest. And I think the key in that is slowing down enough to make a choice because I think we forget that every day is a thousand choices but often i mean for me I'm moving so quickly that I'm like yeah cool cool cool and you go I'm actually making a lot of choices without thinking about them and without going all right I'm saying yes to this what am I saying no to
00:20:14
Speaker
o Because that was helpful advice that someone gave me once, which is so simple. But it's like in saying yes to one thing, you are saying no to something else. Whether that thing that you're saying no to is rest or whether the thing you're saying yes to is rest, you know, either or. And often you're saying yes to a good thing and no to a good thing. And I think slowing down and actually trying to have intentionality, but also potentially scheduling things like your time to be still and time to pray because without those things put in place, i often will just not.
00:20:51
Speaker
o Yeah. I have a structural thing in place that helped me with that, Rach. Please. so i also need to do that to slow down and I... potentially struggle with it more in my personal life, but in my working life, I just have built in a structure where I will always ask my boss if I can do something that's extra to my role And I'll tell people, and I think that's appropriate, like especially if it's outside of my church role. i think it's appropriate because they're my boss and I work for church and if I'm doing something else, I should ask. But it also just like slows me down. So in all of the time I've been working for the boss I work for, but I think for 14 years, I think he said no once.
00:21:38
Speaker
And he very rarely would say that. And i think when he has it's because he could see that, no, you're above capacity. Like, you're drowning. You can't do that. But, yeah, it actually it just gives me enough time to then think, can I actually do that? Is that the best thing to do? And, that you know, and I honour him in the meantime.
00:22:00
Speaker
And has there been times when you've asked him that and he said, yeah, that's fine, and then you've gone, or maybe not? Do you know you know what I mean? like Yeah, yes, yeah. So sometimes i just the discipline of slow slowing down the decision has helped me. Sometimes it hasn't even made it to him necessarily, or I might have told him, like, I've decided not to do this thing or actually so like Actually, at the moment, the most frequent conversation is like, will you regret it? Like, what will you think in the future about that? Like, so he's not saying you have to do X or y most of the time, but he might say, yeah, will you will you in three months' time say i wish I said no to that, which I have definitely said that to him so many times. Why did I say yes to this thing?
00:22:51
Speaker
Yeah. oh Yeah. So, yeah, it is really helpful in helping me. And now sometimes I just, I just, I've i've been doing it for long enough that it's just helped me say, I'm to have to think about that. Or, um and you know, if I've got the freedom to just decide myself, I've just gotten to the habit of saying, I have to think about it. I'll get back to you at this time.
00:23:13
Speaker
Well, and that's like using, this is a very nurse take on that, but that's like using us as created beings because like that is, you've made a neural pathway. You've made a pathway. Yes. You've put your brain into, it like you've trained your brain to go, oh, wait, stop.
00:23:29
Speaker
Yeah. know And you go, like we're designed for that. We're designed to like well-worn paths in our brain. o and it's, you can't, we can all do that with things you want to do.
00:23:41
Speaker
you can to teach your brain to learn new things and have those like habitual thoughts like that. and it's the The neural pathway I haven't formed yet is the one that says no more frequently. So like I i pause, I definitely pause, but I still Yeah, i mean at the beginning of this year a couple of times I've said yes and then actually said actually no. Or I've said half yes. I said I probably can do that but let me confirm. And then when I've gone back to it, I've said actually and no I can't do that. I'm sorry. I'm to have to say no.
00:24:14
Speaker
yeah What do you reckon, Bec? I love that. Just as you were talking, Rach, what I loved about it was It's actually just interdependent.
Structuring Life for Rest and Balance
00:24:24
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's so lo-fi, but it is just, hey, there's a choice coming and I'm just going to like check with my, I'm going to check with the person.
00:24:34
Speaker
Like, because I want the here to be like, yes, I said yes to the thing and I get to look like a great person, but then there's the you who has to live it and the people who live around you who have to survive you who said yes.
00:24:47
Speaker
Like, it's just that to be like, hey, Do you like just that pause? Like, I think that's a really good, like habit of actually just like, Hey, I'm just going to pause. I don't have to say yes just yet. I'm, I'm gonna, can I think about that? Can i talk to someone like, you know, I mean, I've had friends say to me, like, I don't think what you should do. You shouldn't do this thing because, you know, have you seen it like because of your schedule and it's been wonderful.
00:25:15
Speaker
And I mean, it's it's literally the like the story of Mary and Martha, is it not? Of like, Jesus is not asking you to do more stuff. Like, you know, like he's not going, you should get back in, like, go back and do more stuff in the kitchen. Like, he said, no, no, come, like, come and sit at my feet and listen. Yeah.
00:25:35
Speaker
But, yeah, we i I just want to be a Martha because it's like I feel she gets she got the worst name too. I feel sorry for her.
00:25:45
Speaker
Out of the two of them. Yeah, but, yeah, like it just it feels so much more purposeful to be doing stuff all the time, especially if you're like I'm doing it for you. I'm doing it for ministry and I'm doing it like I'm doing good stuff.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, why haven't you said thank you yet? yeah Yes, exactly. Yeah.
00:26:06
Speaker
Yeah. a Oh, man. Yeah. I really enjoy that. Me too. Yeah. I mean, of I suppose the third question kind of, and I feel like we've we've kind of I mean, I'm gesturing with my hands, like, you know, we've kind of gone down river, but like we've we're kind of heading there. But it's like, yeah, like how does that,
00:26:30
Speaker
how does all of this look in practice for you? Like, you know, what are some things that you've changed and how do you rest? I mean, it's almost like, yeah, that that practice of just that accountability really of like I've got to ask someone and then it makes you prompt to think about like, can I actually really do this? If I have to go and talk to someone about it, can actually do this?
00:26:50
Speaker
Yeah. So Rach, Rach, Do either of you have, like, what do you actually, like, if you have time put aside to rest, do you do something, like, what do you do with that time?
00:27:03
Speaker
And do you actually feel refreshed after that? o How do rest? No, when I started, I tried to start Sabbathing. Like, a few years ago, like, Zach and I, I think before we had kids and we were studying and whatever, and we just had this really weird schedule.
00:27:20
Speaker
And at the start, I'm such a weirdo that I just had a list of things that would be relaxing and then I would tick them off. And that's not good. Nothing says relaxing like a checklist.
00:27:33
Speaker
I don't know. Do relaxing things. ti ti Tick, tick, tick.
00:27:39
Speaker
Bye. Weirdly enough, like, as I've gone along, I've come to, like, I just know that I come to Sunday and Sunday is the day that I rest.
00:27:50
Speaker
And... So like for that, I'm like, okay, I know that I go to church in the morning, but I don't have to get up. Like, okay, I'm going to be awake, but my children can come in. Fine. We're going to go to church. I'm going to come back. Like the baby will have a nap. I will have a nap.
00:28:05
Speaker
Like I'll read a book. Like, you know, I might do dishes or laundry, but like it's a, I feel like it's a lighter day. Like we, in different seasons, we've gone, know, we've gone for a walk. We go for a walk in the bush and the beach and,
00:28:18
Speaker
or I cook something slow, but it's something for me, like those things feel like rest. And as I've gone along, I have tried to get that feeling at like regular points of my day being like, okay, at lunchtime,
00:28:38
Speaker
I'm at home and I'm like, if I was at work, I would have a lunch break. So I'd be like, okay, it's lunchtime. So I'm going sit down and eat my lunch. Or like at the end of the day, I'm like, okay, I've made dinner. I'm going to put my phone away and it's the evening and I'm going to have like a quiet evening. I might, you know, write a book, talk to my husband.
00:28:57
Speaker
Like just, yeah, it life feels a little more structured where you're like, there's a car, I think there's a,
00:29:09
Speaker
A discernment, there's a hard line basically. Like there is always more things to be done but knowing that there's margin and there's kind of rest on a schedule has been actually really helpful.
00:29:23
Speaker
It made me think of the, like the creation, sorry, like there was evening and there was morning, that like rhythm of... you know I know its it's a bit of a whatever thing now, but it makes sense, people that get up with the sun and go to bed with the sun. like The rhythm of the world is made for us to rest at a certain time and then the rhythm of the week is the same, but I think it's very it's in our current state of living, it's very difficult to feel that flow.
00:29:54
Speaker
And do you find that, Amy, as someone who works at church, do you, is Sunday a Sabbath or a Sunday work day? and Sunday's so a work day. So, I mean, that's a bit shaped by the church I serve at because it's a big church with lots of congregations and so it it's a busy day.
00:30:14
Speaker
I do try to have, well, I still try to engage in church as a, like I still am a Christian who follows Jesus. I try to engage yeah genuinely. But I reckon the thing for me is the reason, like in terms of resting well, and I imagine this is true for mums of young kids as well, is like the thing that's restful is doing something that's not emotionally outputting.
00:30:42
Speaker
And so I can't do that on a Sunday at the moment. Although on a Sunday afternoon, an ideal Sunday does have an hour with my eyes closed in the afternoon just to kind of make it through um the number of people that I'll talk to. but But it does mean that the kinds of things I do, so you asked like what things would I do, would we do to rest? For me...
00:31:06
Speaker
It's anything, the two kind of criteria seem to be something where I'm not outputting emotionally and something where my brain stops. And so it actually can be, some people fit in that category. So I've just had some leave and one of my reflections at the end of the leave is, so I've spent heaps of time with my sister who's not working at the moment.
00:31:29
Speaker
She's on maternity leave. That has been very restful because it's a really easy relationship. Like we weren't trying to achieve anything. We were like lots of it was just like playing with her nine-month-old baby, you know.
00:31:43
Speaker
i mean But the other kind of thing that has the same effect is like something like gardening, cooking,
00:31:54
Speaker
For me, not everyone's grocery shopping I experienced that way. This was on holidays I've been digging sand out of the garden, i'm trying to clear some space for some concrete to get laid. It's like this actual very boring job that involved like moving reticulation.
00:32:07
Speaker
But that actually, it was physically very hard work, but actually i felt refreshed by it because it didn't require me to use my emotions.
00:32:18
Speaker
Mm. Yeah, and that's point. That's feel about cooking. i love cooking. Yeah, okay. Yeah, like I really, like I would feel that way about writing, like writing poetry or just like writing my journal or like cooking or being outside.
00:32:35
Speaker
Like I'm not a particularly, like I don't run, but just I'm going go outside, I'm going to go for a walk. like Yeah. Yeah, those things you're like, oh, yeah, I thought I had a problem, but actually i just haven't been outside and seen the sun for a bit.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah. And sometimes it's just like, for me, it's just like switching it off for a bit. So like, it's the ability to go, i don't have to think about that right now. Like, I'm just not engaging with that. Doesn't, I like, I come back from the thing and that if there's a problem, it's still there. But sometimes my brain's been solving it in the background, but I just have got a break from having to feel those feelings.
00:33:17
Speaker
Or... it's great I can, the other thing that's helped me, just to come back to Bec's original question, but while range co is cockless returning. I can, the other thing that's helped me in terms of patterns is, so in my personal, kind in the personal part of my life, I have an, I can overcommit to stuff. All stuff that I want to do, it's not, I'm not obliged to do it. Like I like...
00:33:42
Speaker
Making friends, seeing friends, but I sometimes, like one of the things I think that contributed to me burning out in ministry a long time ago was actually just my weekends were too busy and I did too many things. And they were all things I wanted to do with people I wanted to see, but there were just too many of them. And so...
00:34:00
Speaker
I have worked out that, so I take a Friday off. my I'm full-time at church, but that's five days. So I take Friday off on Saturday. And I've worked out that across Friday, Saturday, probably on average three blocks,
00:34:15
Speaker
is my max so and I think of a block as like morning afternoon or evening so between the two days three blocks with something on is about as much as I can handle because it's also the time I have to do all my chores and I just need to kind of pace myself in terms of emotional output as well how good are you at that how good are you at sticking to that I've gotten so much better than I used to be. I'm like pretty good at it, partly because I've experienced, like when I was really when i was really unwell, I had to do it. Like I couldn't cope without it And so I've tasted how how the impact of it, I guess. yeah So I definitely still have weekends where i don't achieve it.
00:35:02
Speaker
You just can't control it all the time. And sometimes i want to honour my commitments. And so I might say yes to something a long way out and then something comes up last minute that I that i want to do or I should do or whatever.
00:35:16
Speaker
But, yeah, as much as it's in my control, I'm pretty good. Because I think if I see a weekend filling up in the calendar, the panic starts to rise. And so that helps me at that point go, no, i really don't.
00:35:29
Speaker
At some point over the weekend, i just need to potter in the garden or read a novel or cook something or... Like, I think what you're describing, weirdly like we've ended up doing almost the same thing.
00:35:46
Speaker
But what I would have, like, it's almost like scheduling in margin, really. yeah that Yeah. Like i have I have this Google Calendar, whatever. Anyone who has ever seen it is just like, oh, my goodness, like that's it's insane. It's unhinged, right? like And I get it. But for me, I can see my week and it's color-coded and it really helps me.
00:36:07
Speaker
And I will put things in there that I, you know, really like to do that feel replenishing or whatever in yellow. The color of friendship. yeah know But it's friendship. It's going to the pool to have a swim. It's like, you know, lifting weights quietly by myself. Like I have to do that so I'm not in pain, but whatever. I've come to like it.
00:36:28
Speaker
And I think like lunchtime, whatever. But it's making sure that those things are there. And if I look at my week and like Amy says, like sometimes your week is more hectic, but you're like, you know, you love people and it's inefficient. And sometimes you have to be busier than you want to be.
00:36:46
Speaker
But yeah, I can honestly look at my mood and be like, why do i feel so miserable? And I'll look at my calendar and be like, there's no yellow. Like haven't done any of the yellow things and I've had no rest.
00:37:00
Speaker
And that's why I'm like real grumpy. i You know, I don't, it's not everything else. It's actually just that I'm, I'm i'm tired. I'm tired. That sounds like a kind of a kinder calendar than mine. So mine, I don't tend to schedule it in that way until I reckon it's out of control. And then I put in events where it's like in caps, all caps, stay home or say no.
00:37:23
Speaker
it's like, so, you know, if I have had a few weekends in a row or I can see a run of busy weekend, yeah, the clearest one that's coming gets like the whole day blanked out with like,
00:37:36
Speaker
Don't do anything. major shout was on That's right. My calendar basically shouts at me. Are you free? Stay down with me. Yeah.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yep. All right. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Okay. Awesome. I love it. Like we've come from like very broad down to cross arms, actually.
00:38:05
Speaker
Like I suppose it. I mean, if I had to summarise that, I guess ultimately, like, it is kind of the water that you swim in. Like, yes, we are a busy culture, you know, like...
00:38:17
Speaker
what women are doing 50 years ago, 100 ago is different to what we do now,
Reflections on Busyness, Identity, and Community
00:38:21
Speaker
but whatever. But actually, like the only thing that we're kind of, as we've kind of wrestled with this is the only thing we're really in control of is what we do and how we schedule it.
00:38:33
Speaker
And, you know, these are like lovely opportunities to wrestle with like questions of identity, like who am I in God? Like if I am not doing all of the things, if everybody's not seeing me as, like, the most kind person all of the time.
00:38:50
Speaker
But also, like, if we are able to slow down and you know, be present and enjoy God's creation, like, yeah, that does make a shift in how we engage with other people and ah suppose, yeah, how we how we move through our days and,
00:39:13
Speaker
how we actually do ultimately serve. Like, would that, does that kind of sum up some of it or is there anything else that, like, kind of captures that and ties it in a bow?
00:39:30
Speaker
matt Or maybe just a thought to add. This is not the time to do that, but I thought that is, like, Maybe one of the things that helps us do that is knowing that, like, we're part of a community. And and so, yeah, I'm responsible for myself and for what I say yes and no to.
00:39:48
Speaker
And I can trust the Lord because he's placed me in a community of people who are serving. So, like, you know, if you're thinking about actually church, coming back to that first question, there's a body and God's given the body to each other to serve each other, to build the whole body up to maturity. Like, yeah.
00:40:06
Speaker
Everyone gets to be involved. And so that means I just have to do my part. i don't have to do everyone else's part.
00:40:13
Speaker
I can be independent. Yeah. Yeah. Some people are poison and some people are a colon. Yeah. And sometimes like maybe that shifts a bit as well. Like maybe sometimes where they're like being grown toenail for season and that's okay.
00:40:28
Speaker
Yeah. I love watching those videos. yeah The medical. but medical
00:40:38
Speaker
Yeah. What I actually thought when you were just talking back, I was like women in particular in the church, like prioritizing rest gives other people permission to prioritize rest.
00:40:52
Speaker
It's that thing of like me being a like hectic like stressed person who's taking on all these things and annoyed at everybody else because they're not taking on as many things as I am. You're like me prioritizing rest gives other people like, Oh, Oh, okay, cool.
00:41:07
Speaker
I can do that too. And i think potentially the foot, like it, you know, the ripples around you of like allowing people yeah, to rest together and to go, it's not my job to hold all this up. This is okay.
00:41:23
Speaker
I can relax and let my shoulders down and get my tongue off the roof of my mouth and just it's not all up to me. Not all up to me.
00:41:33
Speaker
Go forth and be a toenail. Yes. actually Actually, none of it is up to me. Literally none of it. It's not. It's, it's. I love it. Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
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00:42:08
Speaker
If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys.