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Maria Ryan - Child and Adolescent Therapy
356 Plays2 years ago
My first guest on the podcast is Maria Ryan, a highly experienced child and adolescent psychotherapist based in Dublin. Maria's expertise lies in providing psychotherapy and play and creative play therapy to children and teens struggling with behavioural, emotional, and relationship issues.
With over a decade of experience, Maria has developed a deep understanding of various areas such as neurodivergence, disability, attachment, neglect, abuse, and trauma.
To find out more about Maria, you can find out more on her website, www.mariaryantherapy.ie or email her at maria.ryan@outlook.ie.
The recommendations made in the podcast are linked below:
- Brainstorm: the power and purpose of the teenage brain by Dr Dan Siegal
- The Whole-Brain Child: 12 Proven Strategies to Nurture Your Childs Developing Mind by Dr Tina Payne Bryson and Dr Dan Siegel
- Play Therapy by Virginia M. Axline
- Dibs in Search of Self: Personality Development in Play Therapy by Virginia Axline
- Play Therapy: The Art of the Relationship by Gary Landreth
- Gary Landreth Youtube Short demonstrating Play Therapy
- Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror by Judith Herman
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Marie Ryan
00:00:01
Speaker
Hey, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome everybody to the first trauma and healing episode and welcome Marie Ryan. Hi John, how are you? I'm good, I'm good. Thank you so much for being here. So Marie Ryan's going to be my first guest and highly experienced child and adolescent psychotherapist based in Dublin. Marie's expertise lies in providing psychotherapy and play and creative play therapy to children and teens struggling with behavioral, emotional and relationship issues.
00:00:31
Speaker
Not a small order, not at all. It's a broad palette, isn't it? Yeah.
Marie's Specialties and Focus Areas
00:00:38
Speaker
And you've over a decade of experience, so you've developed a deep understanding of each area, such as neurodivergence, disability, attachment. You've a keen interest in working with teenagers, focusing on issues such as identity, intellectual disability, neurodivergence, gender and anxiety.
Career Path and Transition to Play Therapy
00:00:55
Speaker
This is where you're coming from today. This is what your whole life has been leading up to. Yeah. Thank you again for coming along. And for those who don't know you from Instagram and all your TV recommendations, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you come to train as a child adolescent therapist? And do you have any specialties? I know I've mentioned a few, but
00:01:24
Speaker
Do you want me to talk further on that? So I started training in 2005 in Children's Therapy Centre. When I started the course, I didn't realise what it was going to unfold, what it was getting into.
00:01:42
Speaker
one of my friend's parents spotted in me. So, um, and she said, I think you should be working with children. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. And at the time I have, um, the pathway into therapy training is completely different now for children. But back then it was a bit different and it was based for me, it was based a lot on experience. And I have a diploma, I have a diploma in radio and print journalism, and I have a degree in telecommunications and electronic engineering through media.
00:02:11
Speaker
absolutely the natural precursors to therapy. But during my college training, during secondary school, during after college, all my work was with children. So I worked as a red coat of Mosney in the children's clubs as an entertainer.
00:02:28
Speaker
I worked in Trebolg and I set up the, I think, I think they're still running activates and Florrie's phone club down there, I would have set them up at the start. And I spent a summer in America working in an eight week camp up in the Catskills doing a mixture of kind of a kids club, but it was doing video production and script development. Stuff that I wasn't really qualified to do, but I really, really enjoyed. I found myself over there. And when I came back, then I started,
00:02:57
Speaker
doing part-time work here, there and everywhere. And one of my part-time works was working with a kind of a dance club. So I was doing kind of mini workshops for Furoiga, Bernardo's, doing kind of like, they'd get me in for eight weeks and I'd do stuff like doing a dance, doing a quiz, doing a sketch, maybe doing some sort of three-part singing dance thingy. So
00:03:18
Speaker
I never really intended to be a play therapist. When I went in on the first day of the course, though, I came out going, this is incredible. And I didn't know it that morning, but that evening I knew this is it. This, this, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the person who said to me, I think this is what you should be doing, knows me very, very well. And she, her name is Iden Prenderville, and she would know
00:03:48
Speaker
play therapy really, really well in Ireland, probably one of the major play therapy, child and adolescent psychotherapy people here in Ireland. I didn't quite know that's what she did when she told me. I know now. And I'm really delighted. I said, it was a good yes. Well, it sounds it. I mean, you know, everything again, like I just said, you know, everything leading up to it, how did you get here? And everything was leading up to it.
00:04:16
Speaker
Everything was making, you know, walking into that room, you know, the perfect fit. Absolutely. I remember like speaking to her about six months beforehand and I was really frustrated that like anywhere, anywhere I went to go to do like a dance thing, they were all leading towards competitions. And I was like, no, no, no, I want them to discover themselves. And when I was down in Toronto, when I was doing intake for kids clubs,
00:04:38
Speaker
And like we would have had kids of multiple abilities. And I remember one week we had a kid and he came in with muscular dystrophy. And I was like, I'm going to shape every one of these activities so that he, so that these all meet his needs. But I didn't know it at the time, but I was just obviously feeling that all inclusivity and openness for all was, it was just part of my upbringing.
Understanding Trauma in Children
00:05:00
Speaker
I think it was just always there for me. Yeah. Why? Well, Jesus, weren't they lucky to have you?
00:05:05
Speaker
We'd great crack. We'd great crack. I'd love them though. Cause I'd be like, I have an idea. And you'd say they'd be like, they'd just get on board. Like it didn't take watch. Everyone would stand in holiday camps and they were completely on board with my, like they, I never got to know. It was always like, where is this going to go? Cause it's going to be interesting. Very well supported and they're so supported. Yeah. Very good. Very good. That's how I ended up in play therapy training. Yeah.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, how long did the training take then from where you started to... I know it's an ongoing process, like it never ends, but how long does it take to... My initial training was three years and then the Masters wasn't developed at the time, so I came back a few years later to do the fourth Masters and that's when I did my thesis.
00:05:52
Speaker
In between that, then, I have done a diploma in sand tray therapy. I have done filial therapy, which is kind of a family-based therapy program. I've done CPRT, which is done by Sue Bratton in America, child-parent relational therapy. And I've also done individual, or not individual therapy, but child-based therapy, so one child or two child from the same family, and then group therapy training.
00:06:18
Speaker
So, yeah, I've added on stuff and then I've trained and qualified as a creative clinical supervisor for the last, I think, five years now. OK, so you've all the bases covered there, you know, the individual, the family and even the therapist working with the kids and adolescents then at that stage. Yeah, OK.
00:06:38
Speaker
OK, so then I've come to the right person to ask the next question, and that is, can you talk about how trauma shows up in children and adolescents? So for anyone wondering, you know, I would get even just from friends questions, you know, I'm worried about my kids, something's happened, you know, what should I be looking out for? And, you know, what would you tell them?
00:06:58
Speaker
When I'm doing intakes of parents, and usually by the time they get to me, I've had a chat with them maybe on the phone, but it's usually for me, if, so there's kind of two things. There might've been a trauma and it might've been much earlier than a behavior or a presentation. I don't like using behavior, but how they've changed.
00:07:17
Speaker
So there might have been a trauma or an impact. Something big happened a few years ago and you've noticed since then there's been a dramatic increase in how they present or decrease. They could have also gone in on themselves.
00:07:31
Speaker
And then what I'd be looking for outside of that, if it's not a known trauma, like say like a car crash or something like bereavement, I'd be looking for a pivot in how they present. Has there been a big change in their behaviour, in how they're presenting, who they are? Has something changed that you're noticing?
00:07:53
Speaker
Parents are brilliant. As much as I can spot this stuff from my professional eye, I can sense it in a parent way more than my brain can kick in to do the assessment of what's going on. Parents know. Parents know. And I think there's no harm even going for a consultation, not saying,
00:08:11
Speaker
can I go on your waiting list? It might be more like, can I just have a chat with you? Can I book in for a consultation? I have a bit of worries. From my point of view, I have a lot of knowledge about child development and typical child development and atypical child development, especially in adolescence when it comes to discovering about puberty, discovering who they are, how they're forming, their gender, their identity, their sexuality, that kind of stuff I'd be well used to hearing about. And I know sometimes
00:08:36
Speaker
for parents, that could be all new. So yeah, it's almost nice to have a sounding word going, you know what, that actually sounds fine to me. Maybe watch out for this bit or I like, no, no, no, I think that's okay. And then there's other bits where I'm like, do you know what, I'd be inquisitive. I'd be curious about that bit. Could we explore that more? Yeah, yeah.
00:08:53
Speaker
So yeah, and you know what it is for the parents to trust themselves because they're there day in, day out. You know, they will see something and they'll go, hold on, that's not, that's off. That's, you know, there's something, that's not my kid in the normal day to day. Such a gorgeous way of putting it. That's not my kid. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:12
Speaker
So, and I love that say, you know, about the consultation, because I mean, you know, it's very isolating as a parent. I know even as parents, even when you're together, wondering, going, Jesus, are we doing right? Is there something we're missing? You know, to have that consultation of going, this is what we're wondering about. This is what we're, you know, this is what we're being presented with. And we're just want to ask a few questions. So, yeah, great support, even just on that. And it doesn't necessarily have to lead to the therapy side of things, but
00:09:41
Speaker
I think a calmer parent will lead to a calmer child. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever heard of Dan Siegel. Yes, yes. Yeah, his books are so gorgeous, so accessible. So it's the whole brainchild for children, I would say under nine. And I think for Brainstorm, see, I've just met too many kids who have had puberty at nine or 10. And Brainstorm is for the pubescent child adolescent. So they're staples. I literally, if I look over your head, they're there.
00:10:10
Speaker
So I'd be looking at them out all the time, poor parents, I'd be like, hold on, I've just got to print down some bits. Can you actually talk about that then? Because that's one of my questions, you know, can you talk on how child and adolescence brain is different to adults and how it impacts in the processing of trauma. So even just the natural process of going through puberty, how that can, as you mentioned there, the brainstorm.
Adolescent Trauma Processing
00:10:34
Speaker
So what's happening there?
00:10:36
Speaker
So it's a multiple of different things and it's different as well for each teenager. But the main mission to put it, I don't mean to be reductionist, but the easiest thing to say about a teenager is their mission is to separate from the parent.
00:10:53
Speaker
and that can feel like a rejection in the parent-child relationship whereas this is where the child will be forming their identity. They need to associate and their mission, I always like to call it their mission because I really do think they're like a gang on a mission to find peers who look like them, sound like them, listen to the same music. Now this can change, I don't know about your teenage years but this can change on a weekly basis.
00:11:16
Speaker
So I have like friends who were brilliant, who loved musicals and loved books and then other friends who were into like the prodigy and dance music. I suppose it depends on what mood you're in and what you're connecting to at the time and all of that kind of just develops your range of you know interests.
00:11:41
Speaker
Absolutely. And you think about the teenage brain, it is so open to everything. They are so engrossed in like, I always think of teenagers as like, they're always like, I always think of Greta Thunberg, actually. Like, they're passionate about things. And I remember being a teenager myself, I was
00:12:00
Speaker
passionate about some things and they're getting grossed and they're really interested and they can they're so like clever and stuff that they're into they're really into like teenagers are so brilliant chatted like they're so cool you know
00:12:16
Speaker
And they're interested in trying out everything and they're open to everything. They haven't, you know, of course, they can be judgy because watch teenagers can be judgy, too, especially if they're. But they're still I think they're still quite open to everything. The world is new. It's fresh. They're they're also very risk averted. They don't think they think they're like they they think they're a bit immortal as well.
00:12:40
Speaker
the world, like we've met the world, their brains are still developing as well. And for me, I think adolescence, in my experience, lasts up until about 23. Yeah, yeah, I think I'd agree with that. Yeah. And how then does that's the normal kind of development exploration? How would trauma affect that? Again, it's person specific.
00:13:09
Speaker
But I think you might notice that they might become insular, but then again, there's very introverted teenagers. And it depends on whether something has happened beforehand as well.
00:13:24
Speaker
It's different for everybody, but I think like that, you know your kids, you might see that there's a bit of difference, you might see that they're retreating from social activities, but then there's neurodivergent kids who just aren't bothered with that and want to be online and want to hang out with people who like their certain interests. So it can happen in the outside world, but also on their online world as well. Yeah.
00:13:49
Speaker
Sorry, go on. No, I think if you have any worries about mental health stuff, I think even liaising with your doctor is great. If you're thinking about depression or anxiety, maybe linking with your doctor as well is always good. Just to get a sounding board, and also I always think because we live in communities, GPs are great, that they know it's not even to tell the GP that this is happening, it's also to gain support from the GP that this is happening.
00:14:17
Speaker
Yeah, very true. My GP is incredible and I think she's an amazing support. Yeah, no, there are some great GPs out there and even just from a family perspective, they know they've probably seen the kid grow in the family and even know different things that are going around in the family and what I had been said, twig something. So it's been hell whether it's been said or not.
00:14:46
Speaker
You might notice as well that the teen isn't happy to explore, happy, they might be, or they might be presenting at an earlier developmental level. So when I'm doing an intake,
00:14:56
Speaker
Not only am I thinking about the chronological age of the child, but I'm also looking at if there was a previous trauma, whether a death or a trauma of any sorts, because trauma is different. Again, it's person specific, isn't it?
Therapeutic Techniques for Trauma
00:15:08
Speaker
What impacts me might be very different to what impacts you. But I'm also looking at the developmental age of the child when they were impacted, because that might give me an idea. So say if the child
00:15:19
Speaker
is anxious, but maybe they had a big house move when they were two or three. And the pair might be saying they're consistently sucking their tongue. They're hanging on to me. They won't go anywhere. They're nearly crying. They're nearly getting into a tantrum. That might tell me that, you know what, there's previous hurts from the past, from that house move that are not getting resolved. And that might mean it's impacting their teenage exploration and development.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, it gets stuck in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just a small part. It might not be everything. It might just be small. Because we need to think about development is like social, cognitive, physical, you know, there's six parts. So it's even looking at all those parts. But again, chat to a doctor, chat to a therapist, we're going to have a much more broader landscape to think about where the child is.
00:16:13
Speaker
That's a really good point, even just about you saying, about that moving piece, even to be able to go, okay, well, it's down to that smart, if we can unlock that, if we can open that up a bit, it starts to move again. It's not being held in that place.
00:16:32
Speaker
and the learning can go back in and the trust in the world can come back around because it's been resolved in a way that is okay for the child. And it's interesting you say that because say if a child came into me like that, what I'd be thinking might appear in the play is that an earlier developmental level in play would come up.
00:16:53
Speaker
So a child coming into play therapy will, particularly impacted by trauma, will replay a scene over and over and over again. And it's like us as adults talking about something. Just because we talk about something and we know something doesn't mean it feels better in ourselves, you know? You know, do we say like, in anything, say like that house move. Well, we did the house move and it was grand, but I'm like, yeah, but if that kid keeps on playing out a house move in my playroom and I literally have two houses because it happens quite a bit,
00:17:22
Speaker
or say a separation between parents. And if I see that being played out loads, in the playroom now, that's in the therapeutic relationship, I'd be thinking, yeah, I think something, and it's not for me to go, oh, it was this conversation that you had, that's never going to be an act to come out. But I'd say there's a little bit of misunderstanding and like that, something that might just need to be unraveled or explored and normalized.
00:17:45
Speaker
that it's... As to remember... I'm thinking about the royalties, two or three. They're not going to have the cognitive understanding now that they have... Hyperen. You know? Yeah, they have Hyperen. That's how they're sounding it. Say again, sorry?
00:17:58
Speaker
So they have kid brain and that's how they're understanding it. We have to go back to that kid brain and going, what was your experience of that? And it's almost like creating an atmosphere or in the trusting relationship that you can play any way you want in here. So I get some really big, huge guys. My door is tiny. And I get some really big guys and they're down on the floor and they might be playing out of something with puppets. And they were like, they might be going, oh my God, really? I feel ridiculous. I was like, keep going. And you start encouraging the play because
00:18:27
Speaker
I'd be looking as well at the play development. Where was the play when this child got impacted by trauma as well? So interesting. Wow. That's very fascinating.
00:18:36
Speaker
So just sorry on that, you can see even the emotional age through the play of something stopped after that. So maybe, you know, whatever happened, it wasn't safe to play or they didn't have the... It's not even a safe to play, it's more disruption in the play. There might be just cognitive distortion that is tweaked in that they might, like a big one is a car crash and kids might be averse to playing with cars after that or being in the car.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, and then what I might see them do here is they might go back to something involving cars or trucks and it could be even moving Sylvanian families or something like that and they're like I don't know why I'm doing this and I'm like just trust it because it might be the precursor to using the cars to reenact and it's not that every child needs to reenact the trauma it's almost about being in a safe place
00:19:26
Speaker
to share a feeling, a dynamic or whatever was happening for them, you know. So the play now is helping them process it. The play now is... In my world, choice are the child's words and play is their language, yeah.
00:19:42
Speaker
Wow. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So a child who comes in to me and adolescence can be different, but if the trauma has occurred at your developmental level, I'd definitely be looking. I don't have the chairs in here most of the time. They're just there for today. I've cushioned on the floor. We're on the floor. All the toys are at the eye level to the floor. I'd be really encouraged and down on the, down on the hunkers, down on the floor to play and explore. I have the body memory then as well. I've been on the floor. I've been playing.
00:20:11
Speaker
Wow, very good. Okay, okay. Can you talk to me about what a touchstone story is then? Oh my gosh, yeah. So this touchstone story is credited to Eileen Prenderville. She is the director of Children's Therapy Centre here in Ireland. And she developed this as a way of introducing who I am, what I know about the child, and why the child is coming to therapy. So
00:20:41
Speaker
I don't see myself as a non-directive play therapist. I'm person-centered. I'm very blended. So I actually start off the process with parents, and I meet them for two, three sessions. It's me gathering insight into who this child is, how they are, who they were before a trauma happened, and maybe what happened afterwards.
00:21:02
Speaker
And it gives me, it gives the child, it takes the onus of the storytelling of the trauma from the child to me. So I know what's happened. And I'm obviously going to use it in a child and age appropriate language. I'm going to make sure the story is going to meet their developmental level as well.
00:21:20
Speaker
wherever they are. And it's just like that, just explain it to them. Like, I don't want to reduce it, but it's also telling me as well, like their favorite things, like what they like playing. It also gives me an idea of what I might have in the playroom for them as well outside of the therapeutic touchstone story. The first time the child meets me and they come in and
00:21:41
Speaker
I'll often say to the parents, let them know that I have a pink door. Is there any toys here that they'd really be drawn to? Let them know I have Sylvanian families or houses or I have the sock game or something like that. Let them know that I wear bright runners or whatever they need. And if they have any questions, I'll say to the parents, if they need to ask me anything, does she have dinosaurs, comes up quite a bit.
00:22:07
Speaker
Very good. Some kids might ask, can you show me a video of the room? And of course, I'll send them a womanish or whatever video. Yeah. So they have an idea what to expect. And then when they come in, then I'll read them the story. So it's usually like in something like this. So it doesn't look intimidating or else I'll have it memorized off if it's for an area or child, but save for some stories and experiences I want to get. I don't want to get the details wrong. So.
00:22:35
Speaker
And then I'll ask a child at the end of the story, did I leave out any bits? And I've often had kids say, yeah, I know I was wearing an orange top and my lace was untied. And yeah, and my brother actually didn't have a coffee to cold or whatever. Your kids are incredible. And yeah, so that's how the therapeutic relationship will start, usually. It's, you know, it's that piece. It starts before they even get in the room.
00:23:05
Speaker
You know, it starts with a phone call and obviously from the parents, but even from that, including the main, you're going to go and see Maria and this is, you know, a door and all of that. It's developing, you know, it's interesting them into this process before they've even got there. And it's that, it's that childlike thing. Oh, Sylvanian families. Oh, that could be cool.
00:23:25
Speaker
You know, and I'm excited about that. I'm different to that. I'm a person who helps it hurts. And I'd explained to them that, you know, I heard a very hard thing happened. I heard this happened to you. And that's a, you know, that's a really hard thing to happen. And sometimes when kids come here, they might have muddled up feelings on the inside and it's my job to help you with those. And all you have to do is play. That's all you have to do. That's literally all they have to do is just play in the way they want to play because the play play processes.
00:23:56
Speaker
play shows, you know, it's not, I think, you know, as adults, we're such language orientated, where for children, play is the way, literally the way.
Self-Care and Connection in Healing
00:24:07
Speaker
Wow, fascinating. And especially even for adolescents as well, who may have been impacted earlier, they'll be like, oh, like that. They're like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, oh, just give me, it feels good. It just keeps going, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it really speaks to the space you create for that to be allowed to feel safe for them.
00:24:25
Speaker
you know, to go, Oh, Jesus, I don't know whether I, you know, in any other situation, they probably wouldn't have been able to be with you. And yeah, fantastic. Yeah. And can I ask them what about the parents? What about self care for parents if they're, you know, they are worried and the kid has gone through something or what does self care and actually what does self care look like for the child as well?
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah. For self-care, it depends on what the family are presenting with. Say if it was a birth trauma, I'd encourage the family to get support around their own maybe therapy needs as well if it hasn't. Because sometimes when a child goes through therapy, a lot of emotions can come up. It's not linear.
00:25:15
Speaker
It can feel really good at start and then when the processing moves into the processing stage of therapy, it can bring up a lot of rough emotions and hard emotions and the child might become more challenging in the relationship. So I'd often ask parents at the start just to tell me what they do for self-care, whether it's, you know, some people go out on the bike for an hour on a Sunday, some people are like, no, I need to get my nails done.
00:25:38
Speaker
I need to, or else I need to get on, you know, I need to listen to a podcast or something because therapy is a process. It's, you know, I wish I'd say it just gets easier, but to unravel stuff, stuff may have been, may have been,
00:25:56
Speaker
you know, it might have been hidden away from family members. But I like to give parents like that I am supportive as well throughout the therapy process as well. I'm meeting with the parent or parents or foster parents or whomever I've had. They're not in the room, are they?
00:26:14
Speaker
start with a therapeutic touchstone story. And then I'll ask at the end of that, the child, would you like your parent to stay? And they're like, and I'm like, well, they're in the car outside. If we need them, I have them on speed dial. I can actually see your car from my house. And they're usually, OK, bye. And that means as well in the play therapy or child and adolescence like a therapy process, it is private and confidential. As an adult to therapy and has a private and confidential process, it's the same with the child.
00:26:43
Speaker
Now, that doesn't mean that if something comes up in the child's process, especially impacting safety, I will be straight onto them. They do not need to wait for me. I am straight on. And then for parental reviews, I'd be thinking about teens, stuff to support the child. I'd be thinking about maybe ways that I feel the child would feel seen or heard or feel more involved. Probably the most self-care I give to families is connection.
00:27:13
Speaker
Children usually, when they've come to therapy, are feeling slightly disconnected. Teenagers can be a bit...
00:27:22
Speaker
rocky with this one. So it means a little bit of investigation, a small bit of exploration around what would meet it. Children love to play. So even what I'd ask parents often is there one time in the week where you can give 15 minutes to the child where they lead the play, where you set out the toys on a mat and say, you're in charge, you're the boss of the play. And that's how the play therapy room works as well, the child is.
00:27:50
Speaker
besides safety, but they're there to play. And kids, whenever I go and do a parent review, I'll often ask, is there anything I should tell your parent or parents or whomever? And you know what they'd say? The most common thing is I'd love to play. I love playing with them. And I'm like, what's your fee? OK. And if I and I'm I'd ask the child here, is there any game that I could say? And you know what? They'd always say a game that's at home. It's not about buying it. It's usually like
00:28:20
Speaker
Well, actually I loved that time we played Monopoly. It's a remembering of it. It's a, yeah, it's the embodied sense of that felt so good. I want to do that again with you. As long as you don't get too competitive, they're great craic. Do you know what I mean? It could be even Connect Four. It could be Connect Four's brilliant. It's more about the chat and the banter.
00:28:42
Speaker
between them. And especially if it's like teams, I think that can be really, really fun, you know. But it's different playing, like to watch them soccer together and, you know,
00:28:56
Speaker
and going, getting nails. I think that's fun, but I think kids love like, you know, I don't know about you, my Sunday evening is dictated by Call the Midwife and Maybe Happy Valley at the moment. And that's because then my friends are watching it at the same time. And that's like my Sunday evening. And it would have been a connection. Exactly. Yeah, you get to talk about it afterwards. I even get to do the texting in the middle of it. Did you just see what I just saw?
00:29:21
Speaker
But even in that, in the game, having an adult as a kid going, OK, I see you, what is it you're interested in? Oh, I see you're really good at that. Or it's literally just being seen and heard. Some adult who's probably the most amazing person in their life for them goes, oh, let's spend time together. How special is that? Like when you have somebody in your life and they go, me and you, we're going and it's just going to be us.
00:29:45
Speaker
Amazing. Yeah. I've asked some parents to like block off if they could and watch, I guess it is busy out there, but like some parents have blocked out an hour. So say if the child is getting like really anxious or feeling, you know, just out of sorts during the week. I might say to the parents, can you block in like Saturday morning at 10?
00:30:05
Speaker
and get the child to decide and you might not be able to give them an hour on Wednesday at nine o'clock when you're putting three other children to bed and all that but it might be saying what can you think about what we're going to do on saturday 10 i really can't wait to see you i can't imagine what you want to do and it's not about going to smith's it's not it's not usually about going for coffee um or it might be just like going to the playground across the road and can we get like a hot chocolate afterwards
00:30:30
Speaker
or, you know, it's nothing usually structured. I know a board game is structured, but it's not usually like a big extravaganza, or it's not like going to jump zone, because usually it jumps on you when I meet my friends, or I'm usually sitting on the outside. Now, I am partial to the jump zone.
00:30:48
Speaker
Um, the jump zone, you know, or a bit of a climate frame. I'm that ridiculous adult who will be like, okay, it's more my profession. Um, but even like some kids even want to go to the library and to be quiet with their parents together, where you might have two bean bags. Moms are eating her like Sydney Sheldon or whatever. And the kids are reading their role at all, but it's their time together. Yeah.
00:31:17
Speaker
You know, it's to know, and I don't care how old you get, it's to know you're cared for. I care enough about you to spend this time in however way you feel is good, you know? Yeah. And that you trust, you're listening to me the fastest I trust you. You know what you're about. I love who you're becoming because, you know, you're going to see parts in your kids that were you as well, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very true. It's gorgeous. I kind of forget about that as we're growing up.
00:31:43
Speaker
And to ask another question about self-care then is, you know, the therapist then is really important in this as well. So you're holding a lot, you are, you know, there's a lot of attention that you have to hold on to, you know, what has been played out here. What is the self-care needed for therapists in this? Oh, it's multiple. I think it changes and it fluctuates, I think, as the lifespan of a therapist.
00:32:09
Speaker
It depends what's going on. Obviously, you need to be keeping up your supervision ratios. If new stuff is coming into the room, you need to be bringing that straight to your supervisor. I think as you get deeper into the work as well, your knowledge of psychotherapeutic dynamics, transference, countertransference, projective identification, they all start lighting up a bit more, I think, especially. And then I think I know when I had
00:32:35
Speaker
You know, I had big news about three years into my therapy life and I gathered back to therapy. And then I had two briefments in the space of 16 months. And I knew after, and it was my favorite person in the world. And, you know, sometimes I'd be like, no, no, no, I can handle this. I can handle this. I'm a therapist. And I was like, no, I don't deserve, like, I think therapy is brilliant. Why would I not?
00:33:02
Speaker
encourage myself to go through therapy. And then I suppose I find great resources in like trainings, CPDs, reading books. I'm on an amazing book at the moment, which is just lighting up my brain all over again. I think supporting that. And then there's time off. And doing your notes, knocking them away, having your boundaries, knowing that you're not picking up the phone after six o'clock, if that's when your day ends, not answering emails.
00:33:28
Speaker
And I suppose the job of the therapist is to be a helper and a giver, but we definitely need to mind ourselves and fill up because I think with trauma work especially can be
00:33:39
Speaker
Like we're not robots. We're not computers. This impacts us. We might be in the room that might have the exact same story as us. And whereas I think that's a really valuable thing because we will know them and they will know us. You know the way, sorry, excuse me. They will know that we have known this experience.
00:34:01
Speaker
So I myself, I'm adopted and I think it is no coincidence that I have had a number of foster adopted kids on my case. I think throughout, um, my, like how long am I practised in 2000 and 2005 graduate? So like 15, uh, Oh, it's not, yeah, it's 15 years.
00:34:22
Speaker
I usually have someone who has been in care or has gone through, whether it's international or an Irish adoption, it's interesting how stories pop up, so to be mindful and know when to ask for help.
00:34:38
Speaker
I know, you know, I think it's really good to have friends who are therapists, even having a peer group, but I think I love my friends who are not therapists, and probably don't have a clue what I do. And Justin and me, and you're on an Instagram who watches a lot of television. But I think in the background. They what? But I'd say they'd probably say, they'd probably say she watches a lot of television, and she shows a lot about music, I think. I think she works with kids. She has kids.
00:35:05
Speaker
I get something about that not having to be that, you know, even for myself, I know, you know, my friends know what I do, but they have no idea what I do. But like, I get to show up, you know, how I act with them is not how I act in a room, you know, with a client. And I need that. Everybody needs that, you know, and it's a sense of freedom. It's lovely. Yeah, it is. There's something renewing about it as well. You just get to be yourself.
00:35:33
Speaker
And even as a child therapist, because I work with children whose development has probably been impacted, playing with my friends' kids is, and obviously I'm like, I'm not doing any therapy, I'm obviously not doing a day job, but hanging out with their kids because they're obviously like them as well, which is really cool.
00:35:52
Speaker
you know, so even keeping an eye on wash, typically developing children is like, because otherwise, I just think all kids are like the case though, then I'm like, No, they're not. And obviously, the healing process means that they'll come back into as typical developing, you know,
Identifying and Responding to Trauma
00:36:10
Speaker
move by. True. Yeah.
00:36:12
Speaker
And I'm going to go back into a few, asking a few questions on kind of around trauma and responses or states. So how does fight, flight, freeze, or form? What do these terms mean? And in terms of recognize them in a kid, how would they show up? If somebody was wondering. OK.
00:36:35
Speaker
And so yeah, so what the fight, flight, freeze and fawn are typical trigger or emotional responses to when a child
00:36:43
Speaker
but I would see it's mostly in relation to a response, in relation to a trauma that's already occurred. So flight is when the child will move into, usually getting busy, not acknowledging what happened. Now, I'm conscious that when I say this, this is very kind of boxed in, whereas I'm thinking like, say I'm working with bereaved children. Say if I'm working with siblings, one child may be talking about it, the other one might not be.
00:37:13
Speaker
That doesn't tell me that the child who's not talking about it isn't processing it because the other child might be doing all the talking. And I'm saying that from personal experience because I was a talker. But they can look like they're not engaging, they're not recognising, they're not talking about it. No, it looks like they're shut down, but actually... Yeah. Freeze, I think, is more shut down.
00:37:38
Speaker
For me, frieze is when they introvert, they move in, they become disengaged in a relationship, they become sad. I think frieze, they might become more tired, they might become more withdrawn. I'd usually see a difference in, they might become more paler. Fight is really, joy fight is great because it's really obvious. I think the more obvious one,
00:38:07
Speaker
is the physical ones that we see. So that's fight, they might become more aggressive. To link it can be tricky because it might be like, well, Maria, we're gonna fight in the car. And then I might be thinking, God, is this related back to the car crash? Were they on the roundabout? And was the roundabout two hours ago, but this has been building and building and building and building and next thing they're kicking the back of the seat in the car. So that's more physical, it's more aggressive.
00:38:35
Speaker
It's more explosive behavior. And then fawning, and I'm not too sure, like, fawning I think is new to the trigger responses, where they can, they identify more with someone else. They start becoming codependent. They see themselves, so I see this sometimes as teenagers, but again, it's,
00:38:55
Speaker
I'm thinking about the mission of the teenager where they all kind of look the same and dress the same, but it's also no boundaries, no idea of their identity, no idea of who they are. They kind of go with the flow of what everybody else, but then you mean sometimes it's the characteristic of a child rather than a trauma response? Yeah. As you say, the context really matters, the context of what we're talking about, not just because you're looking at them,
00:39:20
Speaker
whatever, like a random child and going, oh, they're fawning or oh, they're shut down. It's actually no. And they were very like, they were very quiet. They were, you know, like a good kid. And next thing they were just exploding over like, toilet rolls, not being in the right place and stuff like that, or something that you're like, that's, that's not them. Again, the parents, even for a therapist were like thinking, and you know, as a parent, you're like, no, your child, who's your child? What are they like? Yeah.
00:39:49
Speaker
It's fascinating, you know, just how trauma works, how the different ways it can come out and everybody as you, you know, you've been rightly pointing out since the beginning of this chat is that for every child, it's different for every presentation is going to be, you know, the context of what we're talking about, whether it is actually rising to the level of trauma or distressing experience or whatever it is, you know, even as, as I imagine parents would like, Oh, it's this,
00:40:18
Speaker
And this is what we think is going on. And for you to be holding all of that going, well, actually it may not be. Let's see what the picture is. Let's see what the play comes out with. Let's see what is unfolding. As you say, birth trauma might be being played out and nobody might know, you know, it can go back to, or it can go back to, as you say, a teenager being a teenager and allowing that, you know, supporting that in fact.
00:40:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I might say, see that like, I think, okay, I think this is just, this is typical. It's not easy being a teenager at all. So I think that's when it's good to have like brainstorm beside the bed to go through. Cause then at least it's supporting you as a parent going, okay. And then obviously what I'd be thinking then if it goes on for a prolonged stretch, if you're thinking, no, no, no, this isn't moving, this isn't changing.
00:41:05
Speaker
I think this isn't, this isn't, I wonder if something happened that I think no harm ringing a professional and getting their advice. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the next question I was going to ask you was, do you believe it's possible to heal? Oh, God, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Like, I think there is different levels of healing. I think, like, because
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah, I do, sorry, I don't have to go, I think I was emphatic there. Yeah, and it's not because I do, this is my job, it's because I'm trained, and during the training process you to engage in therapy, and as I grow older up, I'm not too sure if I'm growing up, but because I see how therapy, and that new stuff can emerge throughout your lifespan as different development, because even as adults we're still developing.
00:41:58
Speaker
and new stuff can come up, we can remember stuff, stuff can get activated by a new relationship, by someone else coming into our family. But I do think healing happens and healing is, yeah, I'm a big fan of it, I think it's deserved. I like to think now that, I think there was
00:42:22
Speaker
such um maybe a stigma on mental health and I think the the talk around trauma and they did I think the trauma used to I don't know about what you what you went through growing up or what you heard but I always thought of the people at the center of major trauma cases that there might have been a little blame shame guilt on them
00:42:47
Speaker
And I think now it's moving out that actually helping that person, helping the people involved. Yeah, I think there's very important conversations going on. I'm going to mention something that's kind of controversial at the moment, depending on where you fall down. On the side of it was Harry's memoir, Prince Harry and his memoir. And he talks about, you know, growing up under the
00:43:13
Speaker
the lights of cameras, but also under the death of his mum and all of that. And, you know, as a therapist, I'm reading it going, my God, that must have been so hard, the lack of support, nobody talking about us, all of this sort of stuff. I'd see him as an adult and things play out as the adult. If you say the roundabout was two hours ago and the acting out was, you know, the kicking of the backing of the out of nowhere, it seems, but actually it was never out of nowhere.
00:43:39
Speaker
And I think if we can have more and more conversations of that, you know, going back piece of going, but look, look at their experience, like I'm just using that as an example, because it's topic of everybody's conversation. But like that, even for me, it was like, yeah, it wasn't until years later. And even at that, I didn't understand it. Yeah. I was like, well, I'm fine. You know, those things are fine. They didn't bother me because
00:44:07
Speaker
Like I think I was shut down or I was just like closed off to it. That's how I survived it. That's how I got through it. That's how, that's what I needed at that time. And you know, that's okay. Yeah, you think about a child's developmental brain as well. They might like the brain develops from the back to the front and this is the cognitive part. And that doesn't like, we don't get rules in our world developmentally until after seven, eight, nine.
00:44:30
Speaker
that's when we start working out the world is then before that we are really egocentric and think everything revolves around us. I once had a kid come in and he was mid-process and he was coming for bereavement and I have permission with this and he told me he taught the reason his granny died because he broke her glass that day.
00:44:55
Speaker
I know I was like, oh, and but that's what he carried with him. And I think, yeah, that's what he remembered as a very clever three or four
Play Therapy in Practice
00:45:05
Speaker
year old. But when you think about the brain development of a small child, or even in utero, then, then it's going to feel really confusing to the brain because the brain wasn't at the point of development to understand what was happening to the body. So
00:45:16
Speaker
you can be in a shopping centre and go on, why do I feel really, like actually, like some people born into institutional care can get, can feel weird sensations in their body around bleach and cleaning. Of course, yes. And lacquer on floors. No sense, yeah. Yeah, because they would have been surrounded by that.
00:45:40
Speaker
Yeah, the body knows what that language was, you know, the smell. Yeah, that body was taking in that. So our bodies are like little porous objects the whole time. I know we're watertight, but we're absorbing all the time. And even though like those kids didn't know that's what that was, but like, yeah, it's come up a few times when I've been talking to other people. Yeah.
00:46:03
Speaker
I'm a big, yeah, I'm a big proponent of, you know, listening to the body. And even if you don't know what's been said, trusting that something is trying to be communicated and holding them as gently as you can. And, you know, as much time as needed, because that terrible frustration and go, I just want to get over this. I just I don't want to be thinking about this. I don't want to be feeling this anymore. And it's horrible. Oh, something.
00:46:27
Speaker
We all know what it's like whether you're as a teenager and obsessed with whomever and they don't even look at you. Like that's typically developing. Imagine what it's like when something else is just, just can't be understood because it's in your body like. That's why- And not having the words. Say again? Not having the words. Absolutely. And for that then, that's why play is brilliant and I suppose even when I'm with parents and they might have experienced something when they were small and I might say, close your eyes and can you show me?
00:46:57
Speaker
If it feels safe enough, can you show me? It doesn't have to make sense just if you can show me. Or can you point? You can see here I've got a whole range of symbols. I've got a sand tray here on the ground. It's part of the player room, but I might say, can you pick out something that might symbolise something or symbolise that part?
00:47:16
Speaker
And obviously we'd be putting some safety bits around at first and then where does that fit in or how does that fit in? And it doesn't even have to make sense. At least like the goal of therapy is to get internalized, modelled, externalized. So it doesn't have to make sense. We don't always have to put words to it. But sometimes by just moving it from inside to outside, that's part of the process too, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah. I love it.
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, because when you see it work, I mean, I work with adults, I don't work with children, but like, when you see that, you know, when you have that trusting piece between you and your client, and it's like, it doesn't have to make sense, just go with what's there, you know, as long as it feels safe, go with what's there. And then at the end of it, you know, well, how was that? And you're like, Oh, my God, I didn't know I was holding that, I didn't know what that was, but I actually feel better. You know, what was that, you know, trying to put the meaning on as you're taking it out, putting it on the inside, and then trying to put meaning on it afterwards.
00:48:12
Speaker
Sometimes you can't, sometimes you can't, but actually having it out and allowing it even that far is such a weight off. And you can see it even visibly at times. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so if somebody was wondering, you know, what was what were they to expect in the first session with you or the first couple of sessions? You know, can you give a general picture of how therapy starts?
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah. So when parents or parents or guardians come in to me, usually I'm just getting a background of why they're here. How do you think I can help? And sometimes for whomever comes in, it might be that something specific has happened. And sometimes they might be just at the end of their tether and they don't know what's happening.
00:48:55
Speaker
And it's just for me to hold. And sometimes I have to be mindful about not being curious, just letting that spill and be, and for me to hold it. And to me feeling the honor of holding the story, not only the child, but the parent or whoever is in front of me and how this is impacting, because usually it's not just impacting the child, it's usually impacting the family. And going from there, it's just
00:49:23
Speaker
seeing where I suppose my clinical decision making is in from the first but it's usually given that parent space to give time to the story or to the experience or to the child in whatever way so it's just the parent or the parents on the first session and from there then I'm making kind of a plan whether excuse me again how to proceed and it's usually one if not two more intakes setting up self-care setting up
00:49:52
Speaker
boundaries for an expectation, seeing how I can help if I'm the right person. Sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm not. And that's not personal. It's just not the right person. And I'll try and get them to someone who can help and who is much better than me to help them with this, what we're there. And then we, I suppose, usually I'm looking at collaborating with them and building the therapeutic touchstone story and seeing how we can go and creating a lovely safe space for this.
00:50:22
Speaker
this family, this child, to move to play. It sounds nourishing even on the, you know, on the intake side of things, you know, as you said there, holding even the parents piece, that might be the first time they've been able to say it through somebody fully.
00:50:38
Speaker
You know, the fear of that judgment of, you know, if I say it to a friend, if I say it to such and such, will they judge, you know, that my kid isn't doing okay and blame me for that? Or, you know, there's so much being held and never mind just the worry of going, you know, if there's something, you know, I notice a change and I'm really worried.
00:50:58
Speaker
And having somebody like you hear that and go, okay, yeah, we can do this, we can hold this, we can, you know, or even just to say, yeah, I've heard of that before, or I'm familiar with that, or, you know, it's not the worst case scenario of parents. No, adolescence would always come in and say, you've never heard this before.
00:51:22
Speaker
I wouldn't be saying that to them, but I'm like, I've heard it. And then I might give them just an idea of where I've worked and what I've done and what I've worked, what kind of people I've worked with, just to give them a sense of security, give them a sense of
00:51:35
Speaker
They've told you something there, haven't they? They're going in with the expectation that you're going to be shocked and you're going to be upset with them maybe, or you're going to judge what they have to say. They've already told you that's what they're holding even in telling the story. I like the way you meet that going, well, okay, I'll tell you a little bit of what I have worked with.
00:52:01
Speaker
You know, and that opens it up for them to go. I might even name things, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:07
Speaker
Fascinating. OK, OK. OK, so then for anybody who has been listening today and going, oh, Jesus, I'd love to learn more about this. I was, you know, thinking of my own child or I'm thinking about having children or just, you know, a therapist who's in training or thinking about training. And I know there are two different pieces probably, but what book or resource would you recommend if people wanted to know more? OK, so for parents, I'd definitely be looking at Dan Siegel.
00:52:37
Speaker
and the whole brainchild and brainstorm, I just think.
00:52:41
Speaker
you know, the poor library next door to me in Raheemie is played because I just, probably because I'm in North Dublin, I think there's a lot of copies going around there, but it's a great book. I just invest and I think they're great. Just for giving parents some stability around what's typically developing. Dan Siegel, his work is really new. It's really up to date. I think his language is really accessible. And I think for anyone who wants to maybe move into play therapy or child and adolescent creative therapy,
00:53:10
Speaker
This book is ancient, and it's certainly not the be-all and end-all, but it was the first two books I read were Virginia Axeline, and she's very non-directive, and I wouldn't say I'm that. But there's play therapy by Virginia Axeline, and then there's dibs in Search of Self. Oh, yeah, part of that one, yeah. Yeah, and I read dibs first, and then read play therapy second. But she gives the tenets of play therapy, and it's, watch, it's, I think it's,
00:53:41
Speaker
It's moved, but she's definitely, like Dibs gives you a kind of idea of how therapy is. I think another person I'd be recommending is Gary Landrett, the art of the relationship. He is kind of the godfather, he's like one of the spearheads of play therapy in America. He would be quite non-directive as well. But I think when you're thinking about
00:54:07
Speaker
play-based psychotherapy for children. They're great places to start. And I met Gary a few years ago and he's, you know, I think it, I think there's even like YouTube clips. I'm not too sure if they're still up with Gary and his playroom. And it gives you an idea of what a playroom looks like. You can kind of see mine here as well.
00:54:23
Speaker
I might put them in the show notes, and I'm going to put the names of the books that you just recommended on everyone. Find those YouTube clips. I'll put them in the show notes as well if anybody is interested in having a look. So yeah, they're great recommendations. I do love Dan Siegel, the whole brainchild I read, you know, I think it was about two years ago. And I really did. Any of my friends who had kids, I was like, you have to read this.
Resources and Contact Information
00:54:51
Speaker
Okay, so then, okay, if anybody does want to find you, for anybody wanting to get in touch, what's the best way to do that? Email is probably the best. I think if you pop into Google Maria around therapy, you'll see a little pink door, and my details are on the website there. Okay, I'll add them on, and anybody who needs to get in touch, they can do that. And anything else you wanted to say before we? No, it's been gorgeous chatting, this is great.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed that. And, you know, you mentioned, what did you say? You were reading a book at the moment that was getting your brain fired, and that's what's happening with me going, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. So, yeah. Do you need to know that book?
00:55:31
Speaker
Oh, sure. If you want to go on. It is Trauma and Recovery by Judith Lewis Herman. Herman, Judith. Oh, I read it maybe a year ago. I'm doing a post-grad and trauma studies and oh my God, wrote a paper on, just fabulous. Her stuff is fabulous. Fabulous. Yeah.
00:55:50
Speaker
and the historical element of I know yeah yeah and the feminist movement sorry we're going on to a whole different podcast then so yeah it's bathing my soul it's bathing my soul and i'm finding her i'm listening to her as well as reading her so she's coming around north dublin on a few walks with me she's great great great you can't tell anyone who stops me on a walk i'm like huh yeah yeah yeah very jarring going from that i know yeah hi how you doing
00:56:19
Speaker
Okay, yeah, I'll add that in. And Maria, thank you so much. That was fantastic. I think people will get a lot out of that. Anyone wanting to know, you know, just what it's about, even just wondering about, you know, their own kids or, you know, just having questions. So I think you have answered a lot of people's questions today. So beautiful. Thank you very much. You're so welcome. Okay. Talk to you again. Bye.