Grace, Storytelling, and Cultivate '25 with our own Jon Wilson

Transcript

Speaker: Hello.

Speaker: Welcome to Artists of the Way.

Speaker: My name is Nate Knobloch.

Speaker: And today, I'm interviewing someone very special.

Speaker: You may know him by his birth name.

Speaker: John Jonathan Wilson.

Speaker: My middle name is Jonathan.

Speaker: Few people know this about me.

Speaker: Now has come to light John Jonathan Wilson.

Speaker: John.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Thank you for coming to the podcast today.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: Usually this is a two host podcast where we interview others.

Speaker: My co-host was unavailable today.

Speaker: He was the one I was really looking forward to talking to.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: You guys have great conversations.

Speaker: I've seen it.

Speaker: It's been a little scary.

Speaker: But thank you for coming on.

Speaker: John here is executive director of a little organization called Artists of the Way.

Speaker: Ever heard of it?

Speaker: And we're going to talk today with John about Artists of the Way, about a conference Artists of the Way has coming up called Cultivate 25.

Speaker: It's the only year they can call it that.

Speaker: I mean, we could call it Cultivate 25 Beyond this year.

Speaker: That would just be confusing.

Speaker: We could do Cultivate 25 too.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Electric Boogaloo.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Et cetera.

Speaker: Et cetera is the next year.

Speaker: We changed the name completely to et cetera.

Speaker: And so we're going to hear from John about his history with art, about Cultivate, this exciting conference that's coming up next weekend.

Speaker: Can you believe that?

Speaker: Oh my gosh, that is crazy.

Speaker: It's true.

Speaker: And John is one of the instructors at Cultivate, too.

Speaker: So we're going to hear about what you can learn from John so that just listen to it now.

Speaker: You won't have to go.

Speaker: So be free.

Speaker: There you go.

Speaker: I will.

Speaker: This is going to be a two hour episode.

Speaker: It's going to be interactive.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: We're going to do a repetition exercise.

Speaker: I'm going to look right in the camera.

Speaker: Virtual repetition.

Speaker: This practically episode of Dora the Explorer.

Speaker: Meissner is just rolling over in his grave.

Speaker: Well, John.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: What's your name?

Speaker: William.

Speaker: William.

Speaker: Now tell me.

Speaker: William.

Speaker: You and Art.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: What's the backstory there?

Speaker: There's no backstory.

Speaker: Next question.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: Yeah, tell me about it.

Speaker: You have a great love for art and for the Lord.

Speaker: And art has become an integral part in your life.

Speaker: And when did that start and how has it developed?

Speaker: It's kind of always been there.

Speaker: I think it actually started with music, which is one of the.

Speaker: One of the arts.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: It is one of the arts.

Speaker: It's one of the disciplines I think I engage with.

Speaker: Less now.

Speaker: I want to get a little bit more into it.

Speaker: But I, yeah, I think I've always been a bit of a storyteller.

Speaker: I think that's kind of been the central thing.

Speaker: That and a love for music.

Speaker: I started playing violin when I was three and a half.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: I believe.

Speaker: I was very young.

Speaker: I was just obnoxiously pestering my mom.

Speaker: saying I'd like to learn to play this instrument because it sounds nice.

Speaker: Did you know what it was?

Speaker: Yeah, a violin.

Speaker: Yeah, violin.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But I don't know how I pronounced that at three.

Speaker: I want a vitamin.

Speaker: You want a vitamin?

Speaker: You want to play the vitamin?

Speaker: They're not toys, John.

Speaker: But after asking dozens of times, my mom was like, OK, I guess we'll put them into lessons.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: And I did enjoy that a lot.

Speaker: I think it shaped a lot of me.

Speaker: I think I think I think musically something I say a lot, which I'm sure podcast listeners have heard is I have an abstract thought.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And in recent years, like the last couple, I've started to like think of that as music, like it feels like it's like a wall of music.

Speaker: and it has a mood and a sort of sound and I have to translate it into words.

Speaker: I like that.

Speaker: I think that's how I think.

Speaker: So sometimes that sort of music gets translated into words easier.

Speaker: Sometimes I pick the word easier instead of easier.

Speaker: It's okay.

Speaker: And sometimes it takes a minute to kind of wrangle it all in.

Speaker: Yes, it's a translation process.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: But so music was the first one I engaged with.

Speaker: Music was always really technical for me.

Speaker: I don't think it was until I stopped pursuing challenging music that I actually started enjoying music.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: For a while it was express what I'm feeling inside.

Speaker: Yeah, I know I don't have to just try and do faster and more intense songs to show off I can Express my emotions.

Speaker: So I feel like I've been able to do that in recent years, which has been nice but storytelling was the thing that I think really Lit me on fire.

Speaker: I love violin.

Speaker: I love music.

Speaker: I love music very much but as far as my creative process I

Speaker: For as long as I can remember, I've had characters that I've wanted to create and stories I wanted to tell.

Speaker: I think it really began as like a writer storyteller sort of instinct.

Speaker: And that eventually turned itself into a desire to go into film.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: My parents are divorced and we were homeschooled.

Speaker: So do the math of one parent in the home and children and not daycare means we're at home and we're supposed to be doing school, but I didn't do school.

Speaker: I popped open the behind the scenes of the Star Wars prequels and just watched them so much that my brother literally broke one of the discs because he was like, John, stop watching this, please.

Speaker: It's all we watched 24 seven.

Speaker: And I was like, no.

Speaker: We're going to watch it.

Speaker: And he was like, well, the disc is gone.

Speaker: I was like, no.

Speaker: Dad, did you ever get that replaced?

Speaker: Maybe on this pocket note.

Speaker: It sounded like a leader to hear.

Speaker: Someone's out the door.

Speaker: It's the DVD.

Speaker: I think the ones I just got some Star Wars for Christmas, I think they have behind the scenes so I can watch them again.

Speaker: I love that.

Speaker: I should borrow that from you.

Speaker: Oh, they're great.

Speaker: I love behind the scenes more than movies often.

Speaker: Yes, they're some of the best behind the scenes content, I think.

Speaker: Really?

Speaker: Yeah, I would put it up there.

Speaker: It's not at the level of Lord of the Rings, but it's in that vein.

Speaker: But I just fell in love with what I was seeing there.

Speaker: It looked so fun.

Speaker: I loved the visual nature of it.

Speaker: And I loved what looked like this process of embodying these characters.

Speaker: And at like seven, that was like, wow, it looks really cool to wave a lightsaber around and do flips and things.

Speaker: I saw that with Spider-Man as well.

Speaker: I was like, oh, you just get to like be this character.

Speaker: That's so cool.

Speaker: So I had like a whole plan for film until high school and then, um,

Speaker: Theater was part of that plan because I was like, where better to get my teeth wet than community teeth wet?

Speaker: Yes, that's correct.

Speaker: They do a lot of teeth wetting there.

Speaker: I'm just doing great today to cut my teeth and get my feet wet.

Speaker: There we go.

Speaker: Where better to cut my feet?

Speaker: But what about it in community theater?

Speaker: I can experiment.

Speaker: I can learn what this acting and directing piece is all about.

Speaker: And then I can put that into film.

Speaker: And by the time I'm 21, I'll have an indie darling that's one Sundance and I will be in Hollywood and I can create a DC universe.

Speaker: I have a whole six film saga of Green Lantern that I'd still love to make.

Speaker: Are you listening?

Speaker: James Gunn.

Speaker: James Gunn.

Speaker: Yeah, I will never make that six film saga, but I love it in my heart.

Speaker: But in doing theater, I discovered that I liked acting more than I liked directing.

Speaker: Uh-oh.

Speaker: And I was like, well, do I like acting on film more?

Speaker: Or do I like acting on stage more?

Speaker: And the answer was on stage.

Speaker: Uh-oh.

Speaker: And this was like my junior year of high school.

Speaker: Life is about to start.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: I was ready to pull the trigger on the plan.

Speaker: I had scripts.

Speaker: I had colleges I was looking at.

Speaker: I was ready.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: And then it was like, oh, shoot.

Speaker: I think I like theater better.

Speaker: And I have no idea what that means.

Speaker: And so I was like, Lord, what do you want me to do?

Speaker: And then he led me to Bible school, which is another, another, a different.

Speaker: This makes no sense.

Speaker: I know that was, that was what I thought, but he's, he's working it out.

Speaker: Um, that's my abbreviated history with art.

Speaker: So I've that the piece I've already always been able to go back to is that that storyteller.

Speaker: Um, yeah.

Speaker: Why does that, why is that so important to you?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: That's a good question.

Speaker: Let's figure it out right now.

Speaker: I just think stories...

Speaker: They're just beautiful, I think.

Speaker: When you do them well, whether it be comedy or tragedy or something in between or a popcorn action flick, I just think there's such beauty to a story done well that reveals the human experience.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And if done well, gives a little peek at eternity in the divine.

Speaker: And it's not that no other forms can do that.

Speaker: I think they all do it just as well.

Speaker: I just think I really think I was created to tell stories like it just resonates with me.

Speaker: I just understand it.

Speaker: I understand the three act structure.

Speaker: I it's, it's like a symphony that I can see all the pieces too.

Speaker: And I can see how they need to go, which is not to say that I do it well all the time.

Speaker: I don't, um, that's what he was saying.

Speaker: But I, I just very naturally can see what's a story, what needs to be drawn out here.

Speaker: How is this moving and flowing and how is it hitting audiences and how is it hitting me and what's, uh, what's frothing up to the top with the themes.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: That's beautiful.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: No, and that's, I think that's so true that like stories are just so connected with reality because we experience life as a story.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: And God is the great author.

Speaker: And I think that's the best way maybe to receive truth is through a story.

Speaker: And I've found for me, I think for a lot of people, I don't want to speak for everybody because obviously everybody's drawn to different forms of art for different reasons, but stories create a unique connection to life that I think other forms of art don't always do, at least for me, where... It's more direct.

Speaker: It's more direct.

Speaker: I can recognize an experience that I've lived in a film or in a book and feel...

Speaker: cathartic or validated or moved or like it pops a joint back in.

Speaker: Or when I'm going through a challenging time, I can...

Speaker: I can look back on stories or characters that were really meaningful to me and they can be inspirational things that help me navigate that or give me some strength to get through.

Speaker: I finally coped with getting shots by thinking about how Captain America is just fine when he gets his blood drawn.

Speaker: So I'm like, okay, I can be like Captain America.

Speaker: I don't know about getting shot.

Speaker: Yeah, it doesn't bother me anymore because I was like Superman.

Speaker: He's bulletproof.

Speaker: No, and I think that theater and the cinema, they combine a lot of the arts so that you get all those things punching at once.

Speaker: You get the story element that you get from a campfire story where there's no visuals.

Speaker: But then you get the visual element by, you know, excellent cinematography and sets and scenes.

Speaker: And then you get the music element, which works, goes directly to your heart and draws you out.

Speaker: And I think it gives... The pottery element sometimes.

Speaker: Sometimes there's pottery if your prop needs it.

Speaker: And I think...

Speaker: theater can help artists explore those mediums like i fell in love with set design at some point and and i created with with a couple collaborators but it was my sort of concept for it i've i've created i think beautiful and moving to me like

Speaker: basically a sculpture, like a paper mache sculpture.

Speaker: And, and just, and visual like staging and images.

Speaker: Like it's, it's allowed me to express a lot of artistic sensibilities.

Speaker: I didn't know I had, I didn't know that I cared so much about color until I started playing with lighting.

Speaker: And now I've brought that nitpickiness into my home life and Shay hates it.

Speaker: But she's happier.

Speaker: She is happier for it.

Speaker: But like,

Speaker: There's just a wealth of opportunities to get to explore and bring together so many artistic forms that then get to play together in, again, this sort of symphonic playground.

Speaker: It's really cool.

Speaker: And one of those things being used, of course, is acting.

Speaker: The goat.

Speaker: The goat!

Speaker: And that's what you're going to be teaching at Cultivate, right?

Speaker: Sure is.

Speaker: The various acting methods?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Some various acting.

Speaker: I can't cover all of them in an hour.

Speaker: All of them coming.

Speaker: No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker: There's at least one that I don't like, so I wouldn't cover this.

Speaker: Oh, good, good.

Speaker: Um, so, so why, why does acting matter so much to you?

Speaker: Like what good does acting do the world and why does it resonate so much with you and why should people care to come learn about that?

Speaker: I think a little bit of it is what I shared previously in relation to story, thinking about how it benefits an audience member or me as an audience member.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: There's something about seeing somebody embody something that you know, um, a good thing or a bad thing that I think heals the human spirit to just be like, I'm not alone to have your pain recognized and validated or to have, um,

Speaker: your hope, uh, rejuvenated or, or sort of a little miniature proof of it.

Speaker: Um, and that embodiment piece I think is so important.

Speaker: It's one of the reasons I think I struggle to read books sometimes cause I want to see the thing embodied.

Speaker: Um, and I'm, I'm learning to get past that and enjoy great prose.

Speaker: Um, but I want to see it living.

Speaker: Um, and,

Speaker: And that's particularly why I love theater.

Speaker: You can get that in film for sure.

Speaker: I love film.

Speaker: I've been moved by many films.

Speaker: But you know there's cuts.

Speaker: I do know there's cuts.

Speaker: But there's also this screen in between me and that person's experience.

Speaker: Makes a difference, doesn't it?

Speaker: It does.

Speaker: When you're in the space, even if you are 200 feet away, there's something about, man, that person down there is crying real tears.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: In the room that I'm in.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That hits a person differently to, I think, I think it probably opens up our empathy because we're not just staring at blue light and pixels.

Speaker: We're staring at a living person.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Without a mediation.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: They're just there.

Speaker: They're living that out.

Speaker: You know,

Speaker: I'm watching this person live go through these feelings.

Speaker: And do you think there's even something about our souls are in proximity to each other?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So that's why I think that unlocks that empathy because you're like, great.

Speaker: So I'm here with this person and they're crying that any human nature would want to re even if it's just like, that's uncomfortable.

Speaker: I want to look away.

Speaker: you can't really ignore those things, right?

Speaker: Like you can't ignore the couple that's arguing in the store in your vicinity.

Speaker: You can kind of tune them out, but you're still reacting to that thing.

Speaker: You're still tuning them out.

Speaker: That is engaging with it to a degree.

Speaker: And so I think it does that.

Speaker: We can't help but engage with the people around us unless we can totally absorb ourselves into something like a book or our phone or something.

Speaker: Um, but theater doesn't let you do that.

Speaker: Um, unless you're breaking the rules and have your phone out.

Speaker: So, um,

Speaker: As an audience member, I think that's what's important.

Speaker: As a performer, there's a variety of answers I could give, some that are healthier than others probably.

Speaker: Let's see which one it goes with.

Speaker: Well, there is an aspect to which I think performing can be like a drug for some people.

Speaker: because I never feel as invincible as I do when I'm on stage.

Speaker: Like if I get on stage, I'm like, I can do anything and it's going to be fine.

Speaker: If the scene requires me to throw myself on this floor, it's going to be fine.

Speaker: Even though this floor is basically just cement with like a half inch of carpet above it.

Speaker: As I, in the stage, I frequently perform it, you know, I'm going to be fine.

Speaker: I've,

Speaker: when I did Cotton Patch, they were like, we want to throw something into the start of this song, some fun choreography.

Speaker: Make it me.

Speaker: Throw me.

Speaker: And I was like, well, I think I can just do a roll.

Speaker: And they were like, are you sure?

Speaker: And I was like, yeah, I've done it in martial arts.

Speaker: I can do it.

Speaker: I can just jump and do a roll, and that'll be really fun.

Speaker: And they're like, that'll be great.

Speaker: And I was like, great.

Speaker: And so I was about to do it and show them.

Speaker: And I was like, ooh, I'm downstairs on, again, a cement floor with a quarter, half inch of carpet above it.

Speaker: And I realized, I've never actually done this anywhere but on a mat.

Speaker: I was like, well, too late.

Speaker: I'm here now.

Speaker: I hope I don't kill myself when I do it.

Speaker: So that's maybe one of the more.

Speaker: Did you do it every show then?

Speaker: I did, and I didn't get injured.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: The guy who did it with me did get injured one night.

Speaker: Because he did not.

Speaker: He wasn't trained, and we didn't take the time to train him.

Speaker: That's another story.

Speaker: Don't have time for that.

Speaker: But...

Speaker: There is something about that.

Speaker: It's just so freeing to me to be on stage.

Speaker: Like it feels like that's where I'm supposed to be.

Speaker: That's great.

Speaker: And it's not the only place I'm supposed to be for sure.

Speaker: But it is it is.

Speaker: And I get there and I'm like, oh, yes.

Speaker: Again, like just being in the midst of a story, I understand.

Speaker: I feel like I understand what a story needs.

Speaker: I feel like I know what story is.

Speaker: Like it's just baked into me.

Speaker: So I just get on stage and I'm like, great, I'm in the playground that I know what to do in.

Speaker: And I just get to, it's like,

Speaker: It captures the same feeling for me that as a kid, when you get a video game and you're like, the possibilities are endless.

Speaker: And maybe this video game is a little bit more advanced than the last video game you played.

Speaker: And you're like, what?

Speaker: Video games can do this now.

Speaker: I can go anywhere.

Speaker: I can jump on this thing.

Speaker: Oh my gosh, I could do what it like.

Speaker: It feels like video games have now lost that for me for the most part.

Speaker: I still play them a lot as an adult, but I rarely get the sense of like,

Speaker: awe and wonder, like, wow, I could do anything in this video game.

Speaker: Anything could happen.

Speaker: But I do get that feeling on stage.

Speaker: And that's just so fun.

Speaker: I love it.

Speaker: That's beautiful.

Speaker: But I think it also helps me express my emotions in a really healthy way.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I like to think I'm a very open, sensitive person.

Speaker: Oh, I am sensitive.

Speaker: I like to think I'm very open with my emotions and that I just let that.

Speaker: I'm so well adjusted.

Speaker: I've done counseling since I was seven.

Speaker: So I know how to handle emotions and I don't.

Speaker: I stuff them so badly.

Speaker: And I've known for almost 20 years not to stuff my emotions.

Speaker: It's like the one thing.

Speaker: And yet I still am just like, get down.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Good.

Speaker: Good.

Speaker: So I think there's something about acting that's just very cathartic of it's just this place where I can just let that out.

Speaker: Like playing, I'm going to mention Hamlet, everybody take a drink.

Speaker: But playing Hamlet and being able to just be like,

Speaker: Yeah, in one scene, I'm going to contemplate suicide.

Speaker: And then in the next scene, I'm going to just be the wackiest goober you've ever seen and just mess with everybody.

Speaker: And I basically just have free reign of the stage to just do whatever hijinks I want to to whoever.

Speaker: And then to like go into, OK, now I'm going to just berate myself entirely in my own.

Speaker: horrid cowardice and and and just let out all of my self-loathing and now I'm gonna let out all my like righteous anger at injustice like it's it's when you do it right it can be such a healthy outlet for that yeah it shouldn't be your only emotional outlet John but I think it is a very good emotional outlet

Speaker: And then there's also a reality to it that it's frequently been used to inform my spiritual life.

Speaker: I can point to...

Speaker: several big moments of spiritual growth for me that coincided with a show.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: And I don't know.

Speaker: I do think that's the case for everybody.

Speaker: I think there's a deeply spiritual aspect to art.

Speaker: I just also think that for me, especially because I think this is something that God put in my DNA.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And you're open to it.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: That it's like, okay, great, John, you,

Speaker: are called to be my son.

Speaker: And, you know, that's a huge part.

Speaker: And you're, you're, you're trying to do this thing with me.

Speaker: And also I've made you to be an artist.

Speaker: So I'm going to help form you through the art you create.

Speaker: I think that that's probably true for everybody.

Speaker: You know, a God made you to be an engineer and you're pursuing the path of an engineer on that path.

Speaker: Really, you're on the path of Jesus.

Speaker: But as you go towards being an engineer, God's going to shape you through that as well, because that's what he built and made you to be.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: You know, in his timing and however he works that out.

Speaker: So.

Speaker: But there, there are several moments where I'm like, this was revolutionary to my spiritual life.

Speaker: This was revolutionary to my spiritual life.

Speaker: This was revolutionary to my spiritual life.

Speaker: And they coincide with things that were happening in my artistic life frequently.

Speaker: So that's part of it too, is it's just, it's just become a spiritual rhythm for me almost.

Speaker: So that was a really long answer, but that's beautiful though.

Speaker: Interesting.

Speaker: How do we make ourselves open to that?

Speaker: Because like, I mean, I see theater as a more natural way for that, but not everyone.

Speaker: I don't always open myself up for that.

Speaker: And then even in like, if you have a non-artistic job, how do you open yourself up to this spiritual impact that that can have?

Speaker: That's a great question that I haven't cracked.

Speaker: I think we're a lot worse at this than we think we are.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Not just in our like, are we doing it, but in our capability to be the ones to do it, to make ourselves open, to connect with God.

Speaker: I have gotten really radical in my view of God's grace where I'm not quite to like it does everything.

Speaker: I think we still have to respond to his grace.

Speaker: But I really do believe that like seven or eight times out of 10, when...

Speaker: there's this great experience and breakthrough from God.

Speaker: It's not me getting there.

Speaker: It's really God kind of forcing the door open and I'm like, here I am, I'm in this situation now.

Speaker: It's a deus ex machina, you know, like coming in with the eagles.

Speaker: Just deus ex.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: There's no machine.

Speaker: Well, the machine of man, which is Jesus, the body, our machine.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: But it's like if the eagles showed up without there being a moth.

Speaker: Like I didn't even catch the moth.

Speaker: I was just like a moth flittered by for a second.

Speaker: And I was like, maybe I should grab that moth.

Speaker: But then I had to send this email.

Speaker: So I sent the email instead.

Speaker: And then all of a sudden the eagles were like, we're here, sucker.

Speaker: And we're going to make everything great.

Speaker: You know?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: I think the only thing for us to do is just ask.

Speaker: Like that's all it is.

Speaker: It's just ask and say, Lord, I can't.

Speaker: I can't do this or I want this.

Speaker: And just if you just write like who among you if your father, if your father asks, if your son asks for fish, we'll give him a stone.

Speaker: Give me a fish.

Speaker: Give me a fish, kid.

Speaker: No, dad, here's a snake.

Speaker: Ah!

Speaker: Right?

Speaker: But it's like, it's that.

Speaker: Ask.

Speaker: And you will receive, you'll receive the spirit of God in your situation.

Speaker: And that has become like, oh, we'll receive the spirit of God.

Speaker: Not necessarily always what we ask for, but as I've gotten older, it's like,

Speaker: That's what I want.

Speaker: I want the spirit of God and more than anything else.

Speaker: And when you have the spirit, it's good things.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: And boy, we just had a beautiful homily at church on Sunday.

Speaker: It's like a sermon.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's a sermon, but usually shorter because...

Speaker: We're like, we can discuss four different passages.

Speaker: The Anglicans are just extra.

Speaker: We're like, you guys take an hour for one.

Speaker: We're going to get four and half an hour.

Speaker: It's going to be great.

Speaker: Let's go.

Speaker: Buckle up.

Speaker: But one of the passages was if you just had the faith of a mustard seed.

Speaker: I just heard that.

Speaker: This recently while I was reading.

Speaker: I didn't hear it anywhere.

Speaker: I was reading.

Speaker: You heard it in your mind.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But he was talking.

Speaker: I can't remember the rest of the context.

Speaker: I don't remember the context in the rest of the homily.

Speaker: I'd have to look at my notes.

Speaker: But he's talking about... He was trying to reframe this in like an encouraging way where he's like, they...

Speaker: Because what wasn't in our reading but is right before is the disciples ask Jesus for more faith.

Speaker: They're like, Lord, give us faith.

Speaker: And Jesus says, all you need is the faith of a mustard seed and you can move a mountain.

Speaker: It's not much.

Speaker: It's not much.

Speaker: And we read that as, oh, my gosh, we don't even have the faith of a mustard seed.

Speaker: We don't even have that.

Speaker: But I think he's saying, no, you do have the faith of a mustard seed.

Speaker: And then Jesus goes on to say, that's what my priest said.

Speaker: And I think I agree with him.

Speaker: Like, if that's all you can conjure, then I'm there with you.

Speaker: Then you have the spirit of God.

Speaker: If you can just conjure the faith of a mustard seed.

Speaker: And I'm like, boy, I feel that in my burnt out life right now, where I'm just like, I feel like I'm just like,

Speaker: You know, like I crushed like soldiers, like looking up and just like barely being able to reach out for their companion, you know, like it feels like I'm just able to just be like, there's just enough time in the day or there's just enough energy for me to just be like, Lord help.

Speaker: Like, right.

Speaker: Like, that's it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But then that's all you need.

Speaker: And it's like, it's so fragile a thing.

Speaker: It's so little an effort.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: All you need to do is just, Lord, be there.

Speaker: Lord, help.

Speaker: Lord, help.

Speaker: Those are the two most important words, I think, in the English language.

Speaker: If we could just all learn to say, Lord, help and mean it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That's enough.

Speaker: It's going to be more than us trying to make it work ourself.

Speaker: Yeah, because...

Speaker: Because if I only have enough strength to conjure the faith of a mustard seed,

Speaker: I don't have a lot of strength, so I can't, I then don't have the strength to cover the gap that the mustard seed made me supposed to get me across.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker: And that's just a little, that's just a part of abiding in him.

Speaker: And we can't do anything if we don't abide in him, like a vine and a branch abide in him and you and me.

Speaker: So props to Father Chris, who that was his homily that I stole that from.

Speaker: Father Christmas too.

Speaker: All right, next question.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Great answer, by the way.

Speaker: Now we need like an explosive graphic on the screen.

Speaker: Question three.

Speaker: Tell me about the origin and mission and vision and purpose of

Speaker: the why behind artists of the way and also tell me about the origin okay big question do people know i don't know if anybody knows the word have i said that on the podcast before i feel like i must have told the story people in come on in folks open the door come on in camera pan slowly forward through wardrobe um

Speaker: So, Artists of the Way is obviously this podcast and now a non-profit organization.

Speaker: No money.

Speaker: No money.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: Yeah, so.

Speaker: The year was.

Speaker: What was the year?

Speaker: 19-aught.

Speaker: 90 years before John arrived.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It was, I don't know, it just sort of happened.

Speaker: Next question.

Speaker: It was, well, it came about in my life in a very, and I still try and be this way, but in just such a very hands-off season for me in my future of like, God's just going to do what he's going to do, and I'm just trying to go step by step.

Speaker: Doesn't he do the best thing?

Speaker: He does do the best things.

Speaker: When, just like, it's just him doing it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: Keep it up, guys.

Speaker: Keep going.

Speaker: Please.

Speaker: I just, total aside, I'm going to say something that does not bear any pertinence to the podcast.

Speaker: Plug your ears, everyone.

Speaker: Yeah, don't listen to this.

Speaker: No, I just looked on my shelf and I saw my Wolverine action figure and Wolverine wears yellow and blue.

Speaker: And the yellow kind of looks like the texturing and shading on it makes it look like a buttered piece of popcorn from a microwave popcorn bag.

Speaker: Like it's got just that little bit of like the orangish tint to it.

Speaker: And like.

Speaker: Well, it's his pecs.

Speaker: Yeah, his pecs.

Speaker: His pecs and his abs.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so like the shading of it, it just makes it look like a buttered piece of popcorn.

Speaker: And.

Speaker: And we're back.

Speaker: That will stay in the podcast.

Speaker: And we have lost half our listeners at this point.

Speaker: They always turn off when we talk about Wolverine's pecs.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Bummer.

Speaker: We can never do an episode on Logan.

Speaker: That's the least peckalicious.

Speaker: Peckalicious.

Speaker: So delicious.

Speaker: So yeah, I'd had inklings about maybe doing something.

Speaker: Like it just felt like in the circles I'd been running, like things weren't quite.

Speaker: Good.

Speaker: I wouldn't say good.

Speaker: He wouldn't.

Speaker: They didn't feel quite right for what I felt like my calling was and where I felt like God was taking me.

Speaker: And sometimes I was more ambitious with trying to figure out what that was and build something.

Speaker: And that usually didn't go well.

Speaker: I had done a podcast already.

Speaker: I had explored the idea of some other kind of theater ministry organization before.

Speaker: And God had just very clearly been like, not the timing, John.

Speaker: Stop thinking about this thing and just do the thing I'm telling you to do now.

Speaker: Go hang out with Nate.

Speaker: Yeah, go hang out with Nate and me.

Speaker: That's all you need.

Speaker: Get married.

Speaker: That's a big part of your life, John.

Speaker: Don't try and start another thing.

Speaker: Um, and then eventually I like, I almost started a podcast.

Speaker: I talked to you about like helping me design a website and a logo and stuff like that.

Speaker: I was ready to pull the trigger on a year before.

Speaker: Technically, hang on.

Speaker: Okay, we're back.

Speaker: My mic just spun.

Speaker: I was like, and I had like topics and I was like, cool, I'm going to start a podcast.

Speaker: It was like a year before artists of the way started.

Speaker: And God was just like, no, not the time.

Speaker: And I don't even really know.

Speaker: Well, I know part of it came out of this exploration of I.

Speaker: was really overwhelmed with school and work and volunteering at theater and podcast.

Speaker: So let's add another thing.

Speaker: No, I just felt like I was really burnt out doing all of these things and like, I couldn't balance all of them.

Speaker: And I was like, well, crap, it feels like as long as I'm working like a normal nine to five job, I'm not going to have the life that I want with my family.

Speaker: And I'm not going to be able to do the things God's called me to.

Speaker: And I had to kind of get to a point of,

Speaker: letting myself be okay being ambitious and pursuing things where I might fail.

Speaker: I was particularly scared of

Speaker: like spiritual leadership, I think like that was the element that scared me the most.

Speaker: And I just I sort of had this like, example bad track in my mind of like, I could do you know, there's like all these checkboxes of like, a bad failing father or spiritual leader.

Speaker: And like, anytime I did anything that seems slightly close to that or put me in a vulnerable spot, it was like, well, john, you're gonna fall onto that track.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And it seemed like one of those was

Speaker: having an organ, like being in leadership in an organization or, or something like a spiritual leader in an organization.

Speaker: It was like, well, that's just set up perfectly to fail as all these other spiritual leaders.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So I had to get to a point of kind of really trusting God's grace that wherever he took me, it would, he would,

Speaker: Not let me do that.

Speaker: That's what I'm clinging on to still is, okay, God, don't let me do that.

Speaker: Wow, yeah.

Speaker: That's beautiful.

Speaker: So there's a lot of personal exploration, but in coming to terms with that and then in thinking, okay, I'd love to explore some –

Speaker: Things that could become more permanent things for me and could maybe set me up for a life for my family that I would like better podcast was one of those things that came up of like, this is something that I enjoy.

Speaker: This is something that I think would be a benefit to people.

Speaker: And I would be interested in building and pursuing that.

Speaker: So I was thinking about that.

Speaker: I was ready to pull the trigger in 2022.

Speaker: God said, no, it's not the time.

Speaker: So I was like, great, cool.

Speaker: I'll close all those notes and leave them on my desktop.

Speaker: Good listening.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: Sometimes I'm good at that.

Speaker: And then the real catalyst was Godspell.

Speaker: I was driving to breakfast with my dad and I was listening to Godspell and I was thinking about how I've wanted to do it for years and I had this specific vision that really is rooted in the

Speaker: the cultural conversation of our day.

Speaker: And I was like, shoot, if I don't do this soon, culture is going to like move on to different cultural conversations.

Speaker: You're going to talk about all this stuff.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: And then my vision is going to expire.

Speaker: And I was like, shoot, if I don't do it soon, I won't get to do the version of gospel I want.

Speaker: And then I felt like I heard something just say, then do it.

Speaker: Like just something.

Speaker: And I was like, is that me or is that God?

Speaker: Because it's that weird kind of like thought or like heart thing.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So I had breakfast with my dad and then I went to a music rehearsal because I was playing in a pit and the whole time I'm like texting Shay of like, should I do Godspell next year?

Speaker: Do we think we could do this?

Speaker: Would we lose the house?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Let me look up how much the rights are.

Speaker: Let's plan all this right now while I'm playing my violin because I'm an over planner.

Speaker: Sometimes, sometimes I'm an improviser.

Speaker: It depends on the day.

Speaker: And I just on that, like Saturday doing, uh, I think it was a crazy Saturday.

Speaker: So doing two runs of the show.

Speaker: It was a crazy Saturday.

Speaker: Like just doing two runs of the show.

Speaker: I was just like, okay, it feels like God's maybe asking me to explore doing God spell.

Speaker: I didn't know if that meant doing it on my own or with another organization, but then thinking about that, it was like, oh, and also maybe the podcast and those two things feel like they could go together.

Speaker: But I was really, really hesitant about that because I didn't want to let my ambition take over or overstep God.

Speaker: I didn't want to make another Christian arts organization if God didn't want there to be one.

Speaker: So I explored the possibility of doing Godspell with other organizations.

Speaker: I went ahead.

Speaker: I think I went ahead and...

Speaker: No, I explored the opportunity first and it just didn't make sense.

Speaker: Um, or it wasn't the right fit for those organizations.

Speaker: Um, and then at the same time, I just had this sense of like, it also just doesn't feel right at any of the venues around and that I still,

Speaker: I wanted it to be accessible in the inner city, and I think that's still important, and I'm still not sure why.

Speaker: That's a piece that I'm kind of waiting for God to reveal.

Speaker: But I felt like it being accessible to bus routes and people that don't have access to cars, and part of that is I'd love to build opportunities for a more diverse Christian theater artists who can't make it to Caledonia or South Byron Center because they rely on the bus, and the bus doesn't get there, you know?

Speaker: So, but that's all stuff I'm still kind of watching and waiting to see.

Speaker: Okay, God, where are we going with that?

Speaker: But all of those factors kind of came together and it was like, okay, I think maybe God is calling me to just do this

Speaker: independently.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: So it really was just like a step-by-step thing of just like, I'm going to try this door.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: None of the organizations feel like it's a fit for them.

Speaker: So I guess we're going to do it through my podcast, which was really funny to explain.

Speaker: Jordan, it's the show.

Speaker: Jordan, who played the ensemble member number nine, the devil in our show, had just graduated from conservatory.

Speaker: And they were like, oh, man, what are you going to do next?

Speaker: He was like, I'm going to do a show that's being put on by my friend's podcast.

Speaker: I was just like, yep, that's about as weird as it sounds.

Speaker: But I kept having ideas of like, oh man, this could do this and we could do this and we could do this and that would be cool and it would be cool.

Speaker: And like I almost started as a nonprofit and then I was like, nope, I don't know if it's supposed to be yet.

Speaker: So I kept pulling back on that and being like, nope, we're just doing the podcast and we're doing the podcast well and we're doing the show and we're doing the show well.

Speaker: And so I got through the show and I like scheduled a spiritual retreat for myself after the show for like a weekend.

Speaker: Um, I was, I went on vacation the week after the show closed.

Speaker: So that was the first thing.

Speaker: And then after I got back like a week later, I did a spiritual retreat.

Speaker: Um, and I was like, I'm not going to think about artists of the way being an organization until this spiritual retreat.

Speaker: And then at this weekend retreat, silent retreat where I'm going off myself, I'm going to figure that out.

Speaker: Um, so I'm going to take a drink of hot chocolate.

Speaker: Are you allowed to hum on silent retreats?

Speaker: Technically, I could, with the one I went to, I didn't go to like a monastery.

Speaker: It was like a, though I do want to go to a monastery sometime for a silent retreat.

Speaker: But it was like a,

Speaker: kind of like a community sort of vibe.

Speaker: They have like several acres of land.

Speaker: And so it was more just like don't approach somebody and just be like, hey, how are you doing?

Speaker: While they're trying to like quietly reflect on the Lord and you're like, let me tell you about my day.

Speaker: So like conversation and stuff, there were people talking around, the staff was talking, but it was like we're creating a space for you to just be silent and present with God if you want.

Speaker: It was called the Hermitage.

Speaker: It was pretty cool.

Speaker: It's cool.

Speaker: So I didn't really think about it.

Speaker: But that's not true.

Speaker: I did think about it a little bit.

Speaker: Because on vacation...

Speaker: I talked to a good friend, Sophia Medawar, who's been on the podcast.

Speaker: She's going to be at Cultivate.

Speaker: I talked to her about Godspell and how that went.

Speaker: And she was like, man, it sounds like you had something really cool there.

Speaker: And we were just kind of unpacking, like, what's the niche?

Speaker: You know, it did theater a little bit differently than some of the Christian theaters in the area do it.

Speaker: It's trying to put itself in a slightly different location.

Speaker: Like, what are the unique opportunities there?

Speaker: And unpacking that.

Speaker: And we're like...

Speaker: this does seem like it's a cool niche thing that opens itself up to some opportunities.

Speaker: So there was a lot of conversation there.

Speaker: Um, my cousin, Anna, who is now our president of the board, she ended up along with several family members, but she ended up, uh, there with us at the end of that vacation.

Speaker: That was when we saw Lord of the Rings, the musical.

Speaker: And so her and I were kind of talking about it and we're like, it is really, it is cool.

Speaker: It feels like there's a lot of unique opportunities with this.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: So I was like, okay, I'm going to take all this and bring it to the silent retreat.

Speaker: And I just prayed.

Speaker: I don't even remember exactly what God said in that silent retreat.

Speaker: It just felt like it wasn't a no.

Speaker: It was more than fives.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But it again felt like it wasn't a no.

Speaker: Like it was like,

Speaker: Go step by step and explore it.

Speaker: So I was like, okay, I guess we're still just opening the next door and seeing if it's a cliff or if it's a road.

Speaker: So I asked six, six people, five people to be on my board.

Speaker: We have a sixth person now who's great.

Speaker: I asked five people to be on the board, most of whom I thought would say no.

Speaker: They all said yes.

Speaker: And then we added a sixth person who also said yes.

Speaker: And like, it just sort of,

Speaker: And now it's quite beautifully very out of my hands.

Speaker: This organization is very much.

Speaker: You're not even hosting the podcast.

Speaker: I'm not.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Now it's it's other people have sort of caught a vision for this thing, the vision for it, and they are taking it and running with it.

Speaker: So now I'm I'm running alongside people in this, which has been really beautiful.

Speaker: We've spent the year really intentionally crafting a

Speaker: Yeah, so much about the organization so that it's set up for success to create a really healthy space to create art and a really intentional place to create art, intentional, emotionally and logistically and spiritually.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so, and it's an incredible board.

Speaker: I have sat and continue to believe I would be just as excited to see what this organization was going to be if it was just the six people on our board doing something and I wasn't involved.

Speaker: But it's fleshed out into a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Speaker: I've started sharing some of the programming ideas that I had with the board and we're starting to flesh some of that out.

Speaker: But

Speaker: You asked the why, like what's the mission and vision behind it, which I think is important.

Speaker: The vision, which we spent so long crafting, because there's a very valid question with this organization of like, why?

Speaker: Why?

Speaker: You're another Christian arts theater organization.

Speaker: Oh, Christians doing art again.

Speaker: I mean, there's a lot of it in West Michigan.

Speaker: Some of our board members, when we had our first meeting, were like, OK, we need to answer the question why.

Speaker: They were just like, John, why do you want to do this?

Speaker: Is there a point to doing this?

Speaker: Which I think is a great question.

Speaker: Good question.

Speaker: We had a lot of hashing that out.

Speaker: Over hash browns.

Speaker: Over hash browns.

Speaker: All brunch meetings.

Speaker: But we landed on a vision to equip artists in craft and quality performing arts and to cultivate innovative and creative artistry in a Christlike manner.

Speaker: Equip and cultivate are those two key words.

Speaker: We felt like there was a real gap in serious, intense...

Speaker: education in the craft, not just in the Christian theater world, really just in our theater world in West Michigan in general.

Speaker: You've got Grand Rapids Civic who will do some advanced classes, but for how serious our theater community is, unless you're going to go to GRCC,

Speaker: or a college degree program, there's not a lot of places where they're going to say, we're going to really get down and dirty and intense and really grow in our craft.

Speaker: Amidst all of that, we wanted to be able to build a space for equipping community.

Speaker: The Christian theater world

Speaker: in west michigan is really siloed into several pockets yeah that don't have any bad beef with each other but they just do their own thing and they swim in their own circles yeah i was very blessed by god to get the opportunity to swim in all of those circles somehow and get to know a lot of the leadership pretty well um and so we felt artists of the way was a had a unique opportunity to be a middle ground

Speaker: for people from Master Arts, Homeschool Performing Arts Arise and beyond.

Speaker: You know, we're looking at Alive in Lansing for his Glory Ballet, all these different arts organizations where we're doing the same thing.

Speaker: We're doing it in our little niches that God's called us to.

Speaker: But let's create opportunities to get together and encourage each other and edify each other and refine each other as as Christians and as artists.

Speaker: And then we want to cultivate the kind of art that we want to see artists able to create.

Speaker: We want to create art that is at the highest possible level, that is.

Speaker: moving and challenging and joyful and hilarious and tragic and, you know, stories that are that rich in their script and productions that are refined in both the creating of it and in the performance of it.

Speaker: You know, we want it to feel professional when you go to see it.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: A, because we think that that honors Godwell.

Speaker: And it's not to say that the other organizations in the area aren't doing that.

Speaker: They're kidding.

Speaker: They are.

Speaker: There is artists of the way and the artists said artists of the way and myself in particular.

Speaker: I am a product of the people who created these organizations.

Speaker: Brad Garnott, Chris McDonald, Walt Williams, CJ Pletcher.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: more and all of them cared very deeply about the highest level of quality possible.

Speaker: So that isn't necessarily unique to us, but we want to create this atmosphere.

Speaker: We're pursuing the art that seriously and treating it as work, not in a bad way, but in a, we're here to do the work that that's core to the culture.

Speaker: Um, you know, we're setting a high bar that we expect you to get to as an actor.

Speaker: And our actors in West Michigan are capable of that.

Speaker: More theater organizations should put the bar up there because we have an insanely talented, insanely skilled theater community.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so we want to set the bar there and...

Speaker: get artists to that point and give opportunities for artists to create offbeat, innovative, different things that that maybe wouldn't fly somewhere else.

Speaker: But, you know, that you can say, I want to you know, I want to do this weird ballet adaptation of something or I have this original script that I want to create.

Speaker: That's two characters, you know, and I just want it to be these two characters going on this weird adventure.

Speaker: We want to be able to create a space where you can come and see something that's like, wow, that's different and weird.

Speaker: But man, I'm moved or I'm challenged in my faith or I'm edified or that was hilarious and I had a great time.

Speaker: There's a fundamental belief that that is something that God can use and that he values.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: And so we want to do it well.

Speaker: And I think that that doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice community or fun to do that.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The fun in the community comes from doing the work well.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Which is not to say, again, one of my hearts behind this is really trying not to compete with other organizations or making other organizations seem like theirs is lesser and ours is greater because it's not.

Speaker: They're all in different niches that are vitally, vitally important.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But that's the one where we feel like God's sort of led us to say, these are the things that we're majoring on.

Speaker: And that we feel he wants to be at the forefront for artists of the way.

Speaker: Within all that, community is going to happen.

Speaker: Spiritual formation happens because that happens in the arts.

Speaker: We want to be so intentional about spiritual formation.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Because it is a director is almost a miniature spiritual leader in so many senses.

Speaker: So we want to be really intentional about that, explore that.

Speaker: Of course, that's part of the podcast is we get to have so many great conversations with artists to just dive right into the spiritual element of creating our art.

Speaker: What is that?

Speaker: It's sort of unknowable, but also we need to know what it is to a degree to

Speaker: do it responsibly.

Speaker: So yeah, I got very vague.

Speaker: That was beautiful.

Speaker: It's also, it's a place for Christians, but also

Speaker: one that you want very welcoming for non-blavers and for them to see what the body of Christ looks like when they might not get the opportunity.

Speaker: A great sort of image in my mind for that has been the role of a priest versus the role of a deacon in the Anglican church.

Speaker: And I believe in most more traditional liturgical churches.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: for a priest is focused on the people of God and equipping the people of God to do ministry.

Speaker: Their focus is their parish, their church, that community.

Speaker: They want to equip them to be ministers in the world.

Speaker: The deacon has one foot in the church and one foot in the world.

Speaker: And the sentence that describes it, which I think is a lovely, beautiful sentence is the deacon invites the deacon,

Speaker: communicates the needs of the world to the church and welcomes members of the world into the church so they are that intermediary where we are the church reaching out to the world and we are also sharing to the church this is what's happening in the world this is what these are the needs that need to be met by the world

Speaker: not even just spiritually all the time, like this community starving, you know, we need to, as the church do something, right?

Speaker: Something like that can be so practical.

Speaker: So that's been sort of an image in my mind of artists of the way has one foot in the church and one foot in the world where we want to create a space.

Speaker: And it's kind of an impossible task to be able to create a space where we can have

Speaker: anyone from any walk of life in the world be able to come and create alongside Christians who hold deeply to their spiritual beliefs.

Speaker: I know that there are people that believe that that's impossible.

Speaker: And honestly, I believe it's impossible.

Speaker: Kind of happened in Godspell.

Speaker: It did.

Speaker: And it only happened because of

Speaker: the spirit of God enabling us to do that because I'm an idiot.

Speaker: If it were down to my calls all the time, that would not be the environment that's being created.

Speaker: But

Speaker: Just a fundamental care for every person that comes into contact with Artists of the Way and a complete submission to God as much as we can to trust him to help us navigate that.

Speaker: But that is a unique thing that Artists of the Way has the opportunity to do.

Speaker: We want to be able to build that community.

Speaker: There's some...

Speaker: there's a lot of views, um, as far as when new people are coming to the church, how do you, who aren't believers?

Speaker: How do you, how do you navigate that?

Speaker: Um, right.

Speaker: You know, secret friendly or right.

Speaker: And like, when do you plug them in?

Speaker: Where do you plug them in?

Speaker: What levels can they like volunteer at?

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: But there's a sentence that I really like, and it, it certainly is a sentence that needs to be nuanced, but w w,

Speaker: it is belong and then believe the idea that the church can be a community where we can say you can come and belong here and then the result of that is belief yeah um right it's not like belong and then maybe you can believe we are embracing people and telling them they belong because we believe that god's going to work through his body to get move somebody into a right relationship with him

Speaker: But but that doesn't mean we have heart.

Speaker: We do the belonging piece half heartedly.

Speaker: We want to create this beautiful community where everybody can be in community together.

Speaker: And it's

Speaker: Yeah, it is an impossible sort of thing, but for God and, and we're praying for that.

Speaker: I'm praying for that.

Speaker: I'm just hope, you know, that's another Lord help thing.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like this would be wonderful, but I can't do it on my own.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: You can.

Speaker: So our prayer is that artist of the way is that, and we think it has a unique opportunity to be that.

Speaker: So may it be so thank you.

Speaker: That was great.

Speaker: Now, um,

Speaker: the next thing artists of the way is doing is the cultivate conference and cultivate one of those two words.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: And that's happening next.

Speaker: I don't know when this comes out.

Speaker: It's happening on the 18th, Saturday, the 18th.

Speaker: It will be next Saturday.

Speaker: Cause this is coming out this week.

Speaker: It's one of the fastest turnaround times we've had with a podcast.

Speaker: Not the fastest I've recorded and published the same day before.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Um, I'm so excited about cultivate.

Speaker: People are probably here getting tired of hearing those like five words together.

Speaker: Cause I feel like I say it all the time, but it fits just so beautifully into that mission and vision.

Speaker: And that was the first thing that I thought of when I was like, what more could artists the way be?

Speaker: Uh, the first thing I thought of was, man, it'd be awesome to do a conference.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Other podcasts have done conferences.

Speaker: So that was part of why it came into my brain.

Speaker: But it also came into my brain because there used to be conferences from an organization called CETA, Christians in Theater Arts, which is still out there.

Speaker: They just kind of shifted focus.

Speaker: They're kind of in a, I think they're in a rebuilding phase.

Speaker: But they used to provide these great, wonderful training opportunities for Christian theater artists to deepen their experience.

Speaker: their faith and to grow in their craft.

Speaker: And I got to see probably the last conference that they had, at least in the Michigan area, right as I was entering theater.

Speaker: And man, it was great.

Speaker: It was so much fun.

Speaker: And then I learned so much and then it didn't happen again.

Speaker: And I was like, man, that exactly.

Speaker: And the community that I, from the like generation of artists above me,

Speaker: The community that I heard being talked about and the development of craft and faith and outlook on life and the way that they do things that came from those conferences.

Speaker: I was like, man, this is something we need back.

Speaker: We need a neutral space.

Speaker: Where theater artists from every corner, a Christian theater artist, especially, but even just all theater artists, I think would benefit from Cultivate.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But where Christian theater artists can come together and be like, oh my gosh, you do that thing.

Speaker: I do this thing.

Speaker: Let's talk.

Speaker: We've, you know, we've got a little bit of time.

Speaker: Let's talk.

Speaker: Now let's go to this session together and let's unpack what does it mean to have humility as an artist and to not give into fear.

Speaker: Or I have never studied acting methods before, but I've acted for 20 years, but I would love to take this next step.

Speaker: Let's find out what that's all about.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, or I'm terrified of singing.

Speaker: Let me let me dip my toes into that and learn what does it mean to use my voice?

Speaker: You know, I want to direct.

Speaker: What does that look like?

Speaker: How do I work with kids?

Speaker: They're hard to work with as a director.

Speaker: You know, what do I do?

Speaker: Just having those opportunities to be able to just sit for an hour with undivided attention and just cram it in and take so many notes and learn in this sort of intensive classroom setting.

Speaker: I wouldn't even say classroom, I'd say like classroom laboratory setting where you're like experimenting and you're doing the thing as well.

Speaker: I'm like, that's just missing unless you're paying $150 for a class, which has its place.

Speaker: I've done that and I've loved it.

Speaker: But you're getting so much for the price.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: The early bird rate is over.

Speaker: Sorry.

Speaker: It is over.

Speaker: So what are you going to bring that up for, Nate?

Speaker: But the final rate is $24, which is like...

Speaker: Going to a couple of movies.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But this is an all-day conference with so much going on.

Speaker: More than anyone can actually do because there's like two sessions happening at a time.

Speaker: Three sessions every hour.

Speaker: Three every hour.

Speaker: Three except for one hour because we did have somebody who had to back out, unfortunately.

Speaker: But three every hour.

Speaker: Yeah, and it was really on the heart of our leadership team for the conference, which is in its own right, just an amazing team of people.

Speaker: We have Brad Garnott and CJ Pletcher from HPA.

Speaker: Of course, Brad was on the podcast.

Speaker: We have Walt Williams, who's the Artistic Director of Master Arts Theater.

Speaker: And then we have Elizabeth Hawkins, who's from our board and myself.

Speaker: And getting to work with those people is just a dream.

Speaker: But...

Speaker: It was really on their hearts to say, let's just make this as accessible as possible.

Speaker: You know, let's just break even.

Speaker: That's all we've got to do is break even.

Speaker: But let's let's make this accessible for anybody who wants to.

Speaker: Yeah, I hope everybody who is able to comes to this because.

Speaker: I just think we've got such a wonderful lineup and so many wonderful opportunities for deep transformational growth as an artist and as a believer.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Like I'm excited, I can't wait to take some of these sessions.

Speaker: Yeah, let me just share what sessions are gonna be there.

Speaker: So the opening session is from Abigail Sabansky.

Speaker: She's a keynote speaker.

Speaker: Yeah, she's from Sight and Sound Theaters.

Speaker: She's talking about the artist's greatest asset, Christ-aligned identity and why it makes all the difference.

Speaker: And then we and real quick on that, because that's a really amazing story.

Speaker: We were trying to figure out how are we opening this conference?

Speaker: We built basically the entire conference and we're like, we have no idea how we're going to open this.

Speaker: We want like an hour long, 45 minute long opening speech.

Speaker: What are we going to do here?

Speaker: And C.J.

Speaker: Pletcher knows Abigail and and was like, I might be able to get this person for our lunch panel, which which I think you'll share about in a second.

Speaker: It was like, I might be able to get her for that.

Speaker: And as they were talking,

Speaker: Abigail was like, this is actually a type of this kind of event is something I've been praying for for years.

Speaker: Really?

Speaker: And I actually have this entire speech worked out that I'd love to do somewhere.

Speaker: And CJ shared what it was.

Speaker: And we're like, that's just the perfect opening speech for this conference.

Speaker: It aligns perfectly with the things we're talking about.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: So that was just so clearly a work of God to bring that together.

Speaker: So I cannot wait for her speech and her involvement in the conference in general.

Speaker: She's in a couple other things.

Speaker: So excited about that.

Speaker: That's going to be great.

Speaker: And throughout the day, there's three tracks that you can choose.

Speaker: There's an acting track, a director's track, and then a spiritual... Yeah, a faith track.

Speaker: Yeah, and you can bounce between the three every hour, or you can just be like, I'm going to do the faith track, or I'm going to do the acting track or performance track.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Performance track.

Speaker: Like for music.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So we have introduction to vocal technique with Brad Garnott.

Speaker: We have design and visual storytelling with Sophia Medawar, like set building, things like that.

Speaker: Fear, creativity, and humility with Craig Apel.

Speaker: Finding your acting method with our own John Wilson right here.

Speaker: Working with young actors with...

Speaker: taught by Abigail Pletcher.

Speaker: So that's a directing one.

Speaker: And then there's the lunch section, which while eating lunch, there'll be a panel discussing faith and acting with some of the presenters that you and I are going to be.

Speaker: Yeah, we're going to co-host it.

Speaker: I'm going to be back as the host of Artists of the Way.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: For the conference.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then after lunch, we got physical discipline for actors with Dawn Day and and Diana Gustafson.

Speaker: And she and they're like mime artists, right?

Speaker: And so great at the control over their body that they have is incredible.

Speaker: I can't wait.

Speaker: That's what I want to take.

Speaker: So if you want to take one with me.

Speaker: I might do that.

Speaker: Do it.

Speaker: Then we have the heart of assistant directing with CJ Pletcher.

Speaker: The art and spiritual disciplines with Bob Carroll.

Speaker: That sounds interesting.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And a master class then for performers and directors with Brad Garnott, CJ Pletcher, and Walter Williams.

Speaker: That's where some people will get the opportunity to watch directors and

Speaker: direct an actor.

Speaker: Yeah, we have three performers who are presenting and will get direction from those three.

Speaker: So you can either learn from the feedback they give to the performer as a performer yourself.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Be like, oh, these are good things to look out for.

Speaker: Or if you're trying to figure out, how do I direct actors?

Speaker: Because that's a hard thing to learn.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: We're like, we really feel like you learn that best by just seeing it done and experiencing it.

Speaker: So we're really excited about that one.

Speaker: That's going to be so cool.

Speaker: Then we have another roundtable discussion on artistic challenges.

Speaker: That's where just people can kind of talk with a panel about challenges that they're going through artistically and just bounce thoughts off each other, right?

Speaker: And then at 2.50, there's a dedicated time of prayer.

Speaker: That will be beautiful.

Speaker: And then a closing time of worship and prayer.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And during that closing time, for any of you musical listeners,

Speaker: stands out there.

Speaker: We're going to also be announcing what our next show is.

Speaker: And I don't know if we're going to release that online immediately.

Speaker: So that might be there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Got to be there.

Speaker: They're also casting it that day.

Speaker: Right then.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Raise your hands if you want to be in the show.

Speaker: So it's just going to be great and people should take advantage of this great opportunity and it'll be a great thing for them and also a great thing for Artists of the Way, which is trying to really make a beautiful thing happen in this community.

Speaker: All right, John.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: We got something special now.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: You shared this with me and I was like, ooh, shaking up the formula.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: What is it going to ask?

Speaker: We have...

Speaker: A new segment that will last at least through today.

Speaker: Cue the segment music.

Speaker: We're back.

Speaker: Good job, Bob.

Speaker: Great segment music.

Speaker: Got some rapid fire questions for you.

Speaker: These ones I don't know at all.

Speaker: He doesn't know what's coming.

Speaker: And you just got to be ready to answer with your heart.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: And that's it.

Speaker: I need to embrace the Meisner method and just go with my spontaneous reaction.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Ready?

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Star Wars or Lord of the Rings?

Speaker: Lord of the Rings.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: Oh, that hurts.

Speaker: It's true, but it hurts.

Speaker: Marvel or DC?

Speaker: I can't choose.

Speaker: I can't.

Speaker: I thought that'd be a hard one for you.

Speaker: I mean, I'm a comic fan, so that's a question that's been asked me for years, and I refuse to partake in the comic wars, which I think a lot of comic fans do, but I love them both so much.

Speaker: I won't choose between Lord of the Rings and Star Wars that was deeply, both of them deeply influential to me.

Speaker: But these comics that I kind of like, I should be released.

Speaker: It's the principle of the thing.

Speaker: Lewis or Tolkien?

Speaker: Tolkien.

Speaker: Really?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Why Tolkien?

Speaker: I just like his art better than Lewis.

Speaker: And I find theology that is packed into something more poetic and abstract and such a little bit more engaging.

Speaker: I like mining the seeds of Tolkien's theology from...

Speaker: what is there in his story and in his art.

Speaker: I also love theology, clearly.

Speaker: I have a ministry leadership degree, which started as a biblical studies degree.

Speaker: So most of the books that I own are theology books.

Speaker: But if I had to pick, I would pick an artistic rendition that is deeply theological.

Speaker: So also Tolkien is just a little bit more the kind of artist I aspire to be.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So, yeah.

Speaker: Lewis is great.

Speaker: Love Lewis.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Again, that's like a Star Wars Lord of the Rings one.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Which is the exact same because Lewis did Star Wars and Tolkien did Lord of the Rings.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: He did do his Star Wars.

Speaker: No, he didn't.

Speaker: The Space Trilogy.

Speaker: Oh, that's true.

Speaker: He did.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I've been corrected.

Speaker: Which you have not read.

Speaker: I was just lying.

Speaker: I haven't read it.

Speaker: And so I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Speaker: It is not the same kind of art.

Speaker: as Tolkien.

Speaker: I spent on my list for a while but I haven't owned it for at all so.

Speaker: Oh really?

Speaker: Yeah so still working on it.

Speaker: It's getting into birthday and Christmas season.

Speaker: Oh that's true that's true true true.

Speaker: So as an audience member I'll say.

Speaker: Those are some of my favorites after the Ransom trilogy.

Speaker: All right this is a fun one.

Speaker: You need to cast a drama comedy action flick

Speaker: Who is your Fab Five dream team of actors for this blockbuster?

Speaker: Oh, gosh.

Speaker: Of like famous actors or actors that I know.

Speaker: Famous actors.

Speaker: Famous actors?

Speaker: Goodness me.

Speaker: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker: Hang on.

Speaker: What's the genre?

Speaker: It's a drama comedy action flick.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Jeez.

Speaker: Oh my gosh, that takes too much thought for a lightning round.

Speaker: Holy crap.

Speaker: You can change it later.

Speaker: He doesn't have to be locked in forever.

Speaker: Well, I like Chris Evans a lot, so I'll pick him.

Speaker: Okay, we got Chris Evans.

Speaker: Oh my goodness gracious.

Speaker: He can do all three of those things.

Speaker: Drama, comedy, and action.

Speaker: Jeez.

Speaker: Like all the actors are flying from my brain.

Speaker: I just watched Tron Legacy and really enjoyed Jeff Bridges in it again, so I'm going to pick Jeff Bridges just because he's fun.

Speaker: And good.

Speaker: Um...

Speaker: Oh, who's an actor that I feel like can do more?

Speaker: Because a lot of times I watch actors and I'm like, you can do more if you're given the right material.

Speaker: Ooh, yes.

Speaker: You'll get to direct them.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: Oh, gosh.

Speaker: Who would I love to direct?

Speaker: Jeez, Louise.

Speaker: My word.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Oh, man.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I'm like blanking on actors now.

Speaker: Chris Pine.

Speaker: I love Chris Pine.

Speaker: Let's throw Chris Pine in.

Speaker: I need some women.

Speaker: I need women.

Speaker: I have five, six.

Speaker: You have five.

Speaker: I have five.

Speaker: You've got three down.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I need women next then.

Speaker: It's got to just be women.

Speaker: Oh, golly gee willikers.

Speaker: This is a hard question.

Speaker: Oh, gosh.

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: Again, I'm just not thinking of the actors that I admire.

Speaker: You know, I haven't seen Emma Watson do anything in a while and I've just been watching the Harry Potter movies and she's just a really great actress and I think could benefit from just a really nice healthy working environment which I would hopefully foster.

Speaker: So I'll pick Emma Watson.

Speaker: This would be so good for her.

Speaker: Yeah, we'll throw her in.

Speaker: And then...

Speaker: Hmm goodness me.

Speaker: I also have it doesn't have because I also have the dialogue in my brain of like John you're taking too long taking too long.

Speaker: I know that you're just thinking about that.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Zoe Saldana.

Speaker: She's great.

Speaker: Most of her movies make a billion dollars.

Speaker: They do.

Speaker: So she's made more money than anything right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I think she's the actor that's been in the most billion dollar movies.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So let's throw her in there.

Speaker: She's always great.

Speaker: She was in Pirates of the Caribbean.

Speaker: She was, yes.

Speaker: She's in Star Trek.

Speaker: She's in Avatar.

Speaker: Avatar and Guardians and Avengers.

Speaker: She's good.

Speaker: There was an internet thing that Shay found that's become a slang in our household, which is they always understand the assignment, no matter what role they get.

Speaker: It's just like they know.

Speaker: And most of those actors, Chris Pine, Zoe Saldana.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Oh, no, I forgot who my third man was.

Speaker: I had Chris Pine, Chris Evans.

Speaker: Who is the other guy?

Speaker: Oh, Jeff Bridges.

Speaker: Jeff Bridges.

Speaker: You know, I feel like Jeff Bridges always understands the assignment.

Speaker: Like, is he a hippie?

Speaker: Yeah, but like.

Speaker: I don't know about Emma Watson.

Speaker: No, but she's so authentic, which is what you want in an actor.

Speaker: Like emotionally, she will just, I think she'll just let herself go out there emotionally.

Speaker: Um, the things I've seen with her as an adult, great.

Speaker: Well, we're going to push her.

Speaker: It's going to be great.

Speaker: We're going to help her.

Speaker: Cause she's, she, yeah, I think she's, I think she's got, okay.

Speaker: She's got it.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Good job.

Speaker: That was hard.

Speaker: That was hard.

Speaker: That was the hardest question.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I was, I was, I'm doubting myself completely.

Speaker: We can talk about it more later.

Speaker: Idris Elba.

Speaker: Oh no.

Speaker: Idris Elba is great.

Speaker: Oh yeah.

Speaker: I might replace Chris Evans with Idris Elba.

Speaker: Idris Elba is great.

Speaker: Oh, and I love Chris Evans, but no, I'm going to do it.

Speaker: I'm going to put.

Speaker: You're out, Chris.

Speaker: We're going to have it, Chris.

Speaker: Oh, but John Cena has also become an amazing actor.

Speaker: Has he?

Speaker: Yes, he has.

Speaker: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker: He's in movies that I would not recommend our audience watch.

Speaker: He's in an episode of Psych.

Speaker: The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker, which I would never recommend any of our audience watch.

Speaker: Oh, right.

Speaker: Yeah, he's happy.

Speaker: Yeah, he's.

Speaker: Even though The Suicide Squad is an amazingly redemptive movie, I think, but I also am not sure that, even though it's amazingly redemptive, I'm not sure that it is redemptive enough to quite surpass the crudeness of its humor or its gore for most people.

Speaker: For me, it is.

Speaker: But John Cena has floored me in his acting ability.

Speaker: Wow.

Speaker: Although Dave Bautista is really good.

Speaker: But he's... Oh, yes.

Speaker: Because I was going to say he might be the best, like...

Speaker: wrestler to actor but he's just he's just so much better than you would expect that he would be he's really found a great vulnerability and authenticity and I need to stop rambling so you can stay a lightning round slowly hitting earth the lightning is alright next question who nope that's the question after that

Speaker: A different proposition.

Speaker: What's your favorite fruit of the spirit?

Speaker: Shay and I were literally... No.

Speaker: It was yesterday.

Speaker: No.

Speaker: No, that was this morning.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: I was sitting with Arthur and doing daily prayer and I was reading.

Speaker: as you do if you're doing daily prayer from the Book of Common Prayer because there's a Bible.

Speaker: I over-explained that, but she thought I was reading the fruit of the Spirit and I wasn't.

Speaker: But then she asked Arthur what his favorite fruit of the Spirit was.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: Oh, man, but I don't know.

Speaker: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Speaker: I really like gentleness.

Speaker: I think that that's a virtue that's not as prized, although I think it's more prized after Superman.

Speaker: came out but generally i don't think that uh gentleness is super prized in our world okay it's very important lovely um if i had to pick the problem i i mean i just picked gentleness but i feel like theologically i should pick love it's the greatest because it is the greatest of these but you're going with your gut that's okay gentleness is just my homie all right it's my little friend follow-up question yeah what's your least favorite fruit of the spirit

Speaker: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.

Speaker: Patience.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I'm not a very patient person.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: You did well with that question.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: I didn't even get through all of them.

Speaker: I got past patience and I was like, oh, you son of a gun.

Speaker: Now the patience is the end of the list.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: What?

Speaker: No, we did that.

Speaker: Who?

Speaker: When?

Speaker: Where?

Speaker: Why?

Speaker: Who's your favorite apostle?

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: That's an interesting question.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: Man.

Speaker: I mean, it's basic, but Peter's just all of us.

Speaker: I don't think that's basic.

Speaker: That wouldn't have been my go-to.

Speaker: Go on.

Speaker: I do like John a lot, but Peter's just so pig-headed, and I feel like I can be pig-headed, and he's so ambitious, and I feel like I can be ambitious.

Speaker: He's so stressed, and I'm like, I'm also stressed.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I vibe with Peter because I feel like Peter...

Speaker: is like me where he's like, I can be Jesus.

Speaker: Not like the Messiah, but like, I can kind of do that thing.

Speaker: And then it's like, oh, no, I can't.

Speaker: You know, I can walk on the water and does a little bit, but then he's like, oh my gosh, I'm freaking out here.

Speaker: No, I think that really lines with you well.

Speaker: You know, the passage of,

Speaker: that talks about Peter, like, and on this rock, I will build my church.

Speaker: I think my pastor explained it.

Speaker: That was interesting.

Speaker: Right before Jesus said that was when he was asking the disciples, who do the people say I am?

Speaker: Okay, okay, this, that, and the other.

Speaker: Well, who do you say I am?

Speaker: And Peter said, you are the Christ, the Son of God, or whatever.

Speaker: And Jesus said, and you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church.

Speaker: And a lot of people think, okay, this rock, that's Peter.

Speaker: But my pastor thinks that this rock is that confession that you made that Jesus is Christ.

Speaker: It is on that that Jesus is built.

Speaker: his church and peter doesn't really mean rock it means like little rock right and but he gets to facilitate right the big the big rock at it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier about we just really need god to do the things that he's going to do while we're wanting that to happen right but we're not big enough to make it happen ourself and i feel like i vibe with

Speaker: Peter, one of his strengths is also his greatest weakness of like, he just goes like, he like full sends it as the kids would say, you know?

Speaker: Like he's gonna be like, no hesitation.

Speaker: Jesus is like, who do you think I am?

Speaker: You're the Messiah, like immediately.

Speaker: It's like, what amazing faith.

Speaker: Have me come out on the water with you.

Speaker: Right, and then at the same time, he's like,

Speaker: listen man we should like get you elected king you know like listen we've got to build tents and just stay here because this is great you know and i vibe with that where it's just like man i just have such intense reactions like immediately and sometimes those are great and sometimes man what the hot messes but then he also like repents hard too yeah i don't i i try to i think i do

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Final question.

Speaker: Oh boy.

Speaker: What do you want people to say about you when you're gone?

Speaker: Oh, just hopefully that I did what God wanted me to do.

Speaker: What's that?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Whatever God wanted me to do.

Speaker: Um, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker: Probably just that.

Speaker: I just,

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: You're obedient.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I've just gotten so caught up in like, what could my life and legacy be in the past?

Speaker: Oh.

Speaker: And it's just exhausting.

Speaker: You know?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like, I feel like I'm almost exhausted right now just thinking about it.

Speaker: Like, I'm just like, I just want to let all of that go and just whatever God wants to have happened in my life, let that be what happened in my life.

Speaker: That's a good answer.

Speaker: That's a good answer.

Speaker: Thanks.

Speaker: It just, it feels like it's more just a desperate cry for Jesus to take the wheel.

Speaker: That's...

Speaker: where we should be.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: It'll get you a popular song.

Speaker: That's what we want.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's a popular song.

Speaker: That's all you want out of life, man.

Speaker: Well, John, thanks for coming to your house today.

Speaker: I feel so like puffed up because this is like an hour and a half episode.

Speaker: I'm like, oh yes, now that it's me, we'll let it go.

Speaker: Although I will point out I'm not hosting this, so I also didn't cut off the time.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: That was my job.

Speaker: So I watched the time ticking by and I had no control to end it.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: Thank you for coming on.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It was great.

Speaker: It was a nice short walk.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And your vision for the organization.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: It was really great.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Being on this podcast.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You like this podcast.

Speaker: It's all right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Bye.