Transcript
Speaker: Hey everybody, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John.
Speaker: John, I almost said Nate.
Speaker: I'm John.
Speaker: And I'm Nate.
Speaker: And we are the hosts of Artists of the Way.
Speaker: Nate sprung that on me.
Speaker: I didn't know it.
Speaker: No, definitely not.
Speaker: I don't really know what's happening with this episode either because Nate just has a vibe and he's not letting me in on the vibe.
Speaker: Well, if I say too much, we'll have talked about it off camera and then we won't have anything to talk about fresh.
Speaker: Yes, he has good reasons for not letting me in the bar.
Speaker: This may not be a good way to do a podcast.
Speaker: It could be a good way to do a podcast.
Speaker: We'll see.
Speaker: We'll see.
Speaker: You have a topic.
Speaker: Nate has a topic.
Speaker: What's your topic, Nate?
Speaker: Just start us.
Speaker: Just jump us in.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Pull us in.
Speaker: So... Kicking and screaming.
Speaker: No!
Speaker: I don't want to talk to you!
Speaker: I was kicking my feet for anybody who couldn't see, which was everybody, because it was below the shot.
Speaker: Even if you're on video, you didn't see that.
Speaker: You didn't see it.
Speaker: It was my little secret for me.
Speaker: It was good.
Speaker: So, does it seem at all to you like there may be like a vibe shift in like culture and movies and media?
Speaker: No, the world's the same as it has been for 2,000 years.
Speaker: I disagree.
Speaker: Controversial podcast.
Speaker: No, absolutely.
Speaker: And it's been very interesting to see.
Speaker: So I assume you're talking about from sort of a more dour, gritty, sort of like dark reboot era to something that's more simplistic.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Doesn't that seem to be a thing?
Speaker: It absolutely is.
Speaker: I'm not an expert on what's going on in the culture, but that seems to be...
Speaker: the thing I definitely have eyes on the like microcosm of film culture.
Speaker: So I think I can speak with some authority on what's happening there.
Speaker: And I think generally it is things are tending in a more optimistic direction, which is interesting because I think anybody is not optimistic about the world right now.
Speaker: You know, I think for the most part, like like everybody feels it seems like, well, I let me let me take that back.
Speaker: Take it back in the
Speaker: sort of cultural discussion, it feels like generally both sides of the aisle and like different people are just like, we're so close to collapse and catastrophe, you know, and we've got to like save it.
Speaker: I don't know if that's true.
Speaker: No?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I think there's definitely a lot of people that are there.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: I don't think it's everyone.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But.
Speaker: Well, I don't think it's everyone, but I think that that's...
Speaker: I think that's what we're seeing in like our news media and in sort of like... What are the news media?
Speaker: They just want the clicks.
Speaker: They do.
Speaker: I think the news media is incorrect.
Speaker: But I think...
Speaker: There's a lot of anxiety, let me say that.
Speaker: I think that there's a lot of anxiety in the world, which is like factually, the numbers of anxiety right now are higher than the other.
Speaker: So we're living in an age where people at least feel less safe and secure, even if it's their own anxiety, they at least feel that way.
Speaker: And so I do think it is interesting to see that in that time where everybody is feeling so anxious and are looking at the world, the thing that they're turning to, like,
Speaker: They are like, well, maybe we should stop deconstructing everything.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And maybe we should look at what could a good world be.
Speaker: Yeah, I think.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Which isn't certainly all artists.
Speaker: Like, there's a lot of hits.
Speaker: Like, horror movies are having a big renaissance right now.
Speaker: And generally, I don't think this ends well.
Speaker: I just saw a trailer for a very interesting horror movie.
Speaker: I'm not normally a horror movie guy.
Speaker: I'm totally derailing the conversation.
Speaker: What is it?
Speaker: But it's a horror movie from the perspective of a dog.
Speaker: Oh, so its owner gets possessed.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: And it's from the dog's perspective trying to save the owner.
Speaker: And apparently it's like great and moving.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: See.
Speaker: I'm not a horror movie person.
Speaker: I've not really given them a fair shot, but I'm not though.
Speaker: But I feel like even though we've talked about this, that at least with a lot of horror movies, they're grounded in some kind of, they're like real things.
Speaker: There's real good and evil.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: For one.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so that still can maybe go with this theme of like we're tired of deconstructing, we're tired of being anxious.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And it also seems like people want to return.
Speaker: And maybe part of the being anxious is people want to return to some of the good old days, the good old things, which doesn't in itself hold the answers just by going back to the past because the past.
Speaker: past had hard things too.
Speaker: And those surface things aren't going to fix things.
Speaker: But there are some good things from those that we lost in our sort of the last 20, 30 years of exploring.
Speaker: And there were good things that we got with exploring this very sort of deconstructionist, gritty sort of
Speaker: Stories and art but there were good things that we lost as well, right?
Speaker: So I think there's a there's a move to try and regain some of those for sure right and it's like a lot of like like Gen Z people like girls are like into knitting now and like like the grandma Hobbies and stuff like that and
Speaker: And I think my parents are trying to keep their kids away from social media and like screens and stuff because we're like seeing we grew up in this age of moving forward with the new, the tech and throw off the old.
Speaker: Our parents were terrible.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: And stuff.
Speaker: It worked wonderfully.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have no complaints at all.
Speaker: You're doing well.
Speaker: I am doing well.
Speaker: See?
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Because of the internet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The internet has only had ever a positive impact in my life.
Speaker: As you can tell from the sliver of my life you get to see as a podcast audience.
Speaker: It's pretty good.
Speaker: It's pretty great.
Speaker: I have this one room that's really good.
Speaker: This is a lovely room.
Speaker: And I have this one friend.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: And how much did the internet created this room?
Speaker: 100% of this room.
Speaker: We're in the matrix right now.
Speaker: Yeah, I could bend a spoon if I wanted to.
Speaker: But I don't want to.
Speaker: With my hands.
Speaker: Oh, that's the weakling's way to do it.
Speaker: To be very strong to do it.
Speaker: But I wondered, there seems like, yeah, a move towards, and so an example of this that we were talking about is comparing the last two movie iterations of Superman.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I do find this conversation we're having interesting.
Speaker: So this is sort of a conversation.
Speaker: Good, good.
Speaker: Let's keep going.
Speaker: It's very affirming.
Speaker: This is sort of a conversation that's been on the docket for us for a while.
Speaker: It was going to be one of the last ones that we did before I had the baby.
Speaker: OK, yeah.
Speaker: And then we were going to do it another time.
Speaker: And then I was like, I've just seen Superman.
Speaker: I don't feel like talking about this thing.
Speaker: And now we're talking about it now.
Speaker: And that conversation was I wanted to dissect sort of ugliness and grittiness in art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And then I saw Superman and I was like, well, I still appreciate that.
Speaker: But man, Superman was just great.
Speaker: If anybody has not seen Superman.
Speaker: It's lovely.
Speaker: It's just about being human and good.
Speaker: That's like what it is, and kind.
Speaker: Like, that's its thing.
Speaker: It's just meant to be nice, good humanity.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: And it's great.
Speaker: So highly recommend.
Speaker: But that's like...
Speaker: That's kind of an old fashioned simple message, isn't it?
Speaker: And haven't we moved beyond that?
Speaker: But really people want to move back to that, right?
Speaker: I would even say, I'm going to add an interesting layer here.
Speaker: I think even when you were in the deconstruction era, I think that ultimately those messages that ended up resonating were still those simple messages.
Speaker: So I'm thinking about what are those stories that would be like dark and gritty that I love.
Speaker: Logan, which I've talked about before.
Speaker: At the end, the great value of that is he learned to care for others and for his family.
Speaker: Daredevil, which I haven't talked about, but I hope to talk about a little bit more on this episode because it is my favorite TV show.
Speaker: I've talked to you about it before.
Speaker: So dark and gritty.
Speaker: So like, my word, if you want to watch a show and then feel unsafe walking at home, walking home at night, Daredevil's a good one to watch.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, I want to be scared walking in my car.
Speaker: Good to know.
Speaker: It like is, but yet, and part of it is like emphasized because Daredevil is Catholic.
Speaker: So the main character is Catholic.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Seasons will really all of them deal with his faith really is a core central thing and really it always sort of comes back to That's what that's what keeps him human is his faith and his relationship to others and that's always sort of the thing that grounds him and especially in the third and final season, okay, because the third and final season he's basically deconstructing and it's insane and
Speaker: he comes back around to his face and has just a beautiful speech about God's will, which I think is one of the best written ways of describing it.
Speaker: Because he, so, okay.
Speaker: Spoilers for Daredevil, if you haven't seen it.
Speaker: We'll get back to Superman, don't worry.
Speaker: We're gonna talk about some more hopeful things.
Speaker: Some more, some brighter, some brighter.
Speaker: Yeah, hopeful isn't necessarily.
Speaker: Yeah, I think this is very hopeful.
Speaker: But yeah, spoilers for this, if you haven't seen it.
Speaker: And if you can stomach it, go watch it.
Speaker: But it's also totally fair if you can't stomach it.
Speaker: It's fine.
Speaker: You're like me.
Speaker: Right, like Nate, who just has to enjoy this by proxy of my love.
Speaker: And I do.
Speaker: Yeah, it's good.
Speaker: So he starts the season at his lowest point.
Speaker: And he's presumed dead.
Speaker: He's lost the love of his life.
Speaker: He's like...
Speaker: I think that I'm just God's idiot.
Speaker: Basically, I think I'm like Job and and God is just messing with me and he's put me in this like vigilante spot and will not give me a break.
Speaker: So screw God, basically, at the start of the season.
Speaker: And then you see him slowly start to reconnect with that faith throughout the season.
Speaker: But you also see how him losing that...
Speaker: puts him it is it's pretty much a direct connection between he loses his faith and he loses his community because he cuts them both off and then you see well now he's starting to move more towards a worse version of himself okay um and you have sort of this paralleling character that struggles with some of the same things as well but to a more extreme degree because he's a super villain and he's insane as you do in comic book things yeah but
Speaker: You have this central villain of Wilson Fisk that's been the villain for the whole show, who is in sort of a vision spectral sort of way, like in Matt's head.
Speaker: And he's like imagining him.
Speaker: And so he's sort of the devil on Matt's shoulders.
Speaker: And then he's also literally the devil on this shoulder for this other mirror character that's this villain.
Speaker: How literally?
Speaker: He's not on their shoulder.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: That would crush them because Kingpin is very large.
Speaker: So that's one of the key things about his look.
Speaker: Excuse me.
Speaker: I'm going to die now.
Speaker: Sounds like someone's on your shoulder.
Speaker: Wilson Fisk, get off.
Speaker: Vincent D'Onofrio, no.
Speaker: Um.
Speaker: But so it's interesting.
Speaker: You see how this, how, where Matt could go, but then his friends come and, and,
Speaker: pull him out of that.
Speaker: And his priest and this nun who's taking care of him pull him out of that and he slowly reconnects with God.
Speaker: And the big question of the season is whether or not he's going to make the decision to kill because he's never killed.
Speaker: He's never killed.
Speaker: Never.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: He goes quite far, but he doesn't kill.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's the line he draws.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: he's always debated would killing Wilson Fisk be better?
Speaker: And right now, Wilson Fisk in this in that season gets the entire FBI on his side through machinations.
Speaker: So it's like he just went from being in prison to now literally getting the FBI to protect him in a penthouse.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So it's like this guy's pretty dangerous.
Speaker: Maybe it would be better if he died and couldn't keep hurting and killing people.
Speaker: But it's a fair question.
Speaker: It is a fair question.
Speaker: But Matt still decides that that moral line, the commandment of thou shall not murder, which is what he's considering is going and murdering him.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Is not a line he can cross.
Speaker: He will not let Fisk, this devilish character.
Speaker: He won't surrender to that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And fall into that.
Speaker: He is...
Speaker: who God defines him as.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because the line he says to Fisk is, you don't get to change who I am.
Speaker: And then after that, in sort of the epilogue, he's talking about, he's like reflecting and he's talking about God's will.
Speaker: And he's like, I used to think God's will was like a line and it was straightforward, but now I see it as a tapestry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But we only see it from the back.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So we don't get to see the beautiful picture.
Speaker: We just see this weird, confusing pattern that we don't understand.
Speaker: And then at some point he flips it over.
Speaker: Maybe not until eternity.
Speaker: He flips it over and you see the complete beautiful picture.
Speaker: I'm like, what a great way to describe that.
Speaker: From a Marvel Netflix show.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's so good.
Speaker: And so that story, which is full of such awful hardship and crime and people who are lost to drugs and lost to an endless cycle of their mental health, consuming them and turning them into murderous monsters and people who've lost their families and people who are on the run and people who are getting their heads literally smashed off by car doors.
Speaker: Like it's so visceral.
Speaker: It's so deconstructionist.
Speaker: But the message, the through line still becomes...
Speaker: You need God and you need people.
Speaker: You need God and you need your brothers and sisters.
Speaker: You need your community.
Speaker: So I think even those enduring pieces are still powerful because of the simple message.
Speaker: And I think that when you pair that simple message with something that is that simple true message, resonant, beautiful message, with something powerful,
Speaker: so gritty.
Speaker: I think that that is its own special sauce.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That doesn't negate the benefit of something like Superman, like we'll talk about in a moment, maybe not Superman specifically, but the concept of something like that.
Speaker: It doesn't make that lesser than, but I think it is its own special sauce that's to be appreciated.
Speaker: I think that the season we're in now looking at it and looking at what are sort of the
Speaker: the virtues that we're seeing in our art today can help us appreciate what were the virtues of the art for the last 20 years and those good arts probably still the same virtue just showing it in different different light yeah yeah yeah that's cool no there's a lot to
Speaker: Say that they're like different approaches and they each have something to say for them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was thinking about how
Speaker: You know the Superman comics better than I do.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: I mean, I'm not super well-read, but I know them.
Speaker: I've not read 80s, so.
Speaker: I've read a few and no more than I've read.
Speaker: I like less than half of you half as well as I should like.
Speaker: And I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Speaker: Gives me those vibes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe you can correct me, but it feels like...
Speaker: the new Superman lives in the spirit of at least what people, when they think about Superman, think about.
Speaker: Whereas maybe there's like, I know there's tons of comic books and so maybe there's like a lot of variation within there.
Speaker: But I feel like...
Speaker: like maybe the Man of Steel ones didn't fit within that, like this is the original thing that this was created as, whereas this recent one is more like returning back to that original thing.
Speaker: Yeah, so I think Man of Steel is a pretty good adaptation.
Speaker: And that's not just cause I like it.
Speaker: I, so this is John sin.
Speaker: I like the majority of the DC movies.
Speaker: Um, I would say I love them.
Speaker: I would also say man of steel is quite possibly in my top 10 movies.
Speaker: Um, I really like man of steel a lot.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Man of Steel, I think, is a pretty solid adaptation of that character.
Speaker: He's certainly a more reserved version of the character than what we see in Superman.
Speaker: But I think that's a very valid interpretation of Superman.
Speaker: But Man of Steel, I think hope is a pretty big theme in that still.
Speaker: And Man of Steel, I appreciate a lot of the stylistic things of Zack Snyder, but he is...
Speaker: who's the person who directed Man of Steel.
Speaker: I'm trying to keep people up with us who maybe haven't watched these.
Speaker: Um, he was the one who directed Man of Steel.
Speaker: I like a lot of his visual style.
Speaker: I like a lot of his, not a lot.
Speaker: I like some of his sensitivities with stories.
Speaker: Um, but he also has a tendency to make things very convoluted.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: in a way that maybe doesn't always serve the story well.
Speaker: To harken back to what is probably our last episode with Brad.
Speaker: I assume that I will release these in sequential order when we recorded them, because that would make sense.
Speaker: Excuse me.
Speaker: I don't think it always serves the story super well.
Speaker: Man of Steel, I think, is probably his tightest and best one, but I think it's still a little convoluted.
Speaker: But I think the goal is still...
Speaker: you saw this world that went south and and now you want to have hope that earth will be better than that and and clark is sort of an embodiment of that hope he's he's the embodiment of the hope that his parents had that people could be better
Speaker: And he's the his his Kryptonian parents and he's the embodiment of his adopted parents here on Earth that well, his dad in that is complicated, but generally they hope that he will live a good life and that the world will be better for him being in it.
Speaker: And then the world is better for him being in it, I think.
Speaker: General Zod's not because he gets murdered, but he killed.
Speaker: Killed.
Speaker: Yes, that's true.
Speaker: That is a I think that's justified.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I will go to bat for that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He's about to zap those folks.
Speaker: Now, could those folks have just walked forward and then to the side?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But, you know, we're living in the movie.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's not every day you see somebody shoot lasers from their eyes, you know?
Speaker: But I think Batman versus Superman, which is the sequel to Man of Steel, I'm just trying to really keep people engaged with our geeky conversation as we go.
Speaker: as the name would suggest, Batman and Superman are going to fight.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: Everyone wants it to happen.
Speaker: Everybody.
Speaker: You obviously wanted them to fight before they ever teamed up on screen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So Batman v Superman, I like still, but it's probably my least favorite of...
Speaker: the sort of like I view it as a trilogy with Justice League Man of Steel Batman versus Superman and Justice League.
Speaker: And I think Batman v Superman is the weakest.
Speaker: But Batman is terrified of Superman because of what Superman could be, which I think is an interesting sort of compelling take.
Speaker: At the time, it was interesting.
Speaker: Now it's worn down.
Speaker: At the time, it was an interesting, compelling take.
Speaker: But there were a couple like flash forwards
Speaker: That were sort of ambiguous as to whether or not this was actually showing us the future of this universe.
Speaker: Or whether it was just Batman's fears of what Superman could be.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: But Superman was basically an evil dictator.
Speaker: And they're very short scenes.
Speaker: But A, they were shot and directed very well.
Speaker: And B, I think it just hit at the right time that it started this big wave of like, oh my gosh, guys.
Speaker: superman could be evil and so and this wasn't the first to do that um that concept had been done before but there was a video game that came out a couple years before that called injustice where the whole storyline is about superman becoming a dictator in an alternate universe because he loses the love of his life
Speaker: And so it's like, what if this all powerful, all good person actually was evil?
Speaker: And then Batman versus Superman played with that a little bit because Zack Snyder found that more interesting.
Speaker: And then it sort of exploded after that.
Speaker: You had so much Superman media was about.
Speaker: Could Superman be evil?
Speaker: Could that be a problem?
Speaker: And then it could be a problem.
Speaker: It would be a problem if Superman was evil.
Speaker: And then you had.
Speaker: The Boys is a very famous Amazon show, which you should not watch.
Speaker: There is nothing redemptive about it.
Speaker: I haven't seen it, but I know a fair amount about it.
Speaker: And there's nothing redemptive about it.
Speaker: But they have sort of this lab-grown Superman character who is just...
Speaker: Views himself as a god, but is also like cripplingly anxious and will just murder at the drop of a hat.
Speaker: But that somehow the world like loves because he has great PR.
Speaker: He's just this horrible, terrifying character.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then you have Invincible, which I think takes it with a bit more nuance and was a comic earlier.
Speaker: But that's an animated show, which I think does have a little bit more redemptive stuff in it.
Speaker: But I still don't think I would recommend it generally to most people.
Speaker: At least certainly not our audience.
Speaker: But in this one... Not you guys.
Speaker: Not you guys.
Speaker: Not you.
Speaker: I just, I think I know our audience fairly well and I don't think it's one our audience would benefit from.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: But in that one you've got the main character's name is Mark and his dad is basically Superman, came from another world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He's voiced by J.K.
Speaker: Simmons, who's always great, who side note, I realized that J.K.
Speaker: Simmons, anytime I see him on screen, just makes me feel comfortable.
Speaker: I was watching this Apple TV show while I was up late nursing.
Speaker: They're not nursing.
Speaker: I don't nurse.
Speaker: He's the spider.
Speaker: Get me pictures of Spider-Man.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Jonah Jameson and the Spider-Man movies.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I want pictures of Spider-Man.
Speaker: That's him.
Speaker: But he played this whole show about defending a kid who maybe killed somebody.
Speaker: And it's all ambiguous and fairly dark.
Speaker: It's a thriller.
Speaker: But you build up the main character is the dad of this kid.
Speaker: And you build up that our main character's dad at some point had killed somebody and done something really atrocious.
Speaker: And it's like...
Speaker: this is not a good guy, I'm very scared.
Speaker: And then there's an episode where it's like, oh, he's gonna go see his dad.
Speaker: And then it reveals this J.K.
Speaker: Simmons and immediately I was just like, oh.
Speaker: Everything just feels safer.
Speaker: So that was funny.
Speaker: But yeah, so there's this dad character and it's revealed.
Speaker: This is, well, this is just a plot twist really for the first step.
Speaker: What are we talking about now?
Speaker: For Invincible.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Too many dad characters.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm bouncing everywhere.
Speaker: It's revealed that he's really there to conquer the earth for his people.
Speaker: They never died out.
Speaker: He's there to conquer the earth.
Speaker: And his son tries to stop him and actually does reach him at the very end, but it's after a very brutal fight.
Speaker: And so you had this sort of renaissance of just we cannot trust people.
Speaker: Somebody like this could not exist.
Speaker: It just couldn't.
Speaker: And we can't believe it.
Speaker: In Batman versus Superman, Lex Luthor has the line.
Speaker: which I think is really his motivation because he wants to tear Superman down.
Speaker: And he says to Superman, I figured out way back that if God is all powerful, he can't be all good.
Speaker: And if he's all good, he can't be all powerful, which is a classic argument against the existence of a good loving God.
Speaker: So do you think that basic premise is like behind a lot of the deconstruction media?
Speaker: I think so, but it's interesting because I don't think that Zack Snyder,
Speaker: I don't think that's necessarily what Zack Snyder is trying to say.
Speaker: That's not the conclusion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because Zack Snyder, I think, was building towards a Superman that was supposed to be sort of the perfect embodiment of our Superman.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But he wanted him to go through a crucible first.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: I don't think that that is what Zack Snyder believes, but I think the culture sort of latched onto that.
Speaker: Um, that, that take on it of, yeah, there could be no all good superhero like this.
Speaker: There could not be a all good, powerful being like this.
Speaker: Um, and I would even say they just, our culture just at that point was just like, there cannot be a man or a woman, just anyone who is all good.
Speaker: Which is technically true.
Speaker: It is technically true.
Speaker: Except for one.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: It swung so wildly in that direction, as we've just explained with Superman, where it was like, well, now we're just, we have all these morally complex characters that a lot of the time just feel you leaving, leave you feeling icky.
Speaker: And sometimes you get a daredevil where you leave feeling like, yes, I am now encouraged about the state of like humanity and God's ability to like hold on to us.
Speaker: And that like good can triumph over such horrible evil and over my awfulness.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But then you also end up just with,
Speaker: Something like the boys where it's like, well, everybody really kind of sucks.
Speaker: Even the good guys suck.
Speaker: So what's the point?
Speaker: It's so nihilistic.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Whereas I feel like maybe what we're returning to or at least like what Superman wise is it's not like.
Speaker: what if this thing was real and we had to like really struggle with what it would mean if it was in this context, but it was actually, what if it is just what it is?
Speaker: And so I wonder if that's a little of what we're returning to of, of what if the thing is just what the nice thing that it is?
Speaker: It makes me think of, and I'm probably thinking of hope cause we're just talking about Superman and this kind of his thing.
Speaker: But it feels like it's the sense of like, before it felt like we need to test hope and see if it can make it through.
Speaker: We need to see if hope will endure.
Speaker: So let's put it through this fire.
Speaker: And some people conclude, no, it can't endure.
Speaker: You're always going to have just evil people fighting evil people, and it's going to collapse.
Speaker: And some people concluded, no, it can endure, a la Daredevil.
Speaker: it does come through, it does push through.
Speaker: Whereas now it feels like
Speaker: In our art, there's a more optimistic view of, no, there is always hope.
Speaker: Hope can never really be crushed.
Speaker: And we can just look at hope and just embrace hope and joy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that's a nice thing for believers.
Speaker: But then it seems like even people who aren't believers are just ready for hope.
Speaker: Okay, let's just have something nice.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Well... Which answers like a longing in the heart, you know?
Speaker: hopefully they don't stop there because they need Christ to truly fulfill that bit.
Speaker: Because I think in culture, there's also been a lot of return to traditional Christianity, Anglicanism, Catholicism, where people just want to go back to the tangible, traditional, weighty thing that like,
Speaker: that the past generations thought they were maybe too, too enlightened and kind of sloughed it off type of thing.
Speaker: Um, yeah.
Speaker: And, and they can be, and people can do that and perfectly cause you can swing too far back again and like miss the essence for the symbolic.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Missing the forest for the trees.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it's an interesting, it's an interesting swing.
Speaker: And so I guess neither end, you don't find full truth in either end of those, but it's nice that people,
Speaker: are looking for hope.
Speaker: Because you could swing so far that you end up with a bad Hallmark movie.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So on the one hand, you could have the boys, and on the other hand, you've got Hallmark.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which then just sort of laps some substance to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I think that's totally a risk and a total benefit of some of the way you broke down Superman and there's other movies like that that you can get a lot of good truth out of.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: How do you think Christians should respond to this moment as believers?
Speaker: Like what do you feel like God's calling?
Speaker: How do you feel like God is calling us to operate in this moment?
Speaker: And how do you think that affects how we create?
Speaker: Do we have to, like I'm writing a fairly harrowing fantasy series.
Speaker: Should I look at making that more simplistic and hopeful?
Speaker: Not that mine doesn't have some simplicity to it, but like, should we be proactively trying to chase that, do you think?
Speaker: Or just, what are the, I don't know, what do we take away from this?
Speaker: No, that's a great question.
Speaker: Think about what it means.
Speaker: Does it mean that I have to stall?
Speaker: You have to restart over, maybe.
Speaker: Start over?
Speaker: Start a whole podcast over?
Speaker: No, no, no, no, your book.
Speaker: Just your book, don't worry.
Speaker: The podcast is fine.
Speaker: Oh, I understand.
Speaker: The podcast is simple enough, John.
Speaker: Trust me.
Speaker: It's not very deep.
Speaker: I wonder if there's an opening for people to be more vocal with their faith and that there's, and that people are a little bit more open to that.
Speaker: Um, well, I do think you're seeing that more like in culture.
Speaker: I think a people are definitely more open to the spiritual, to the religious even, um,
Speaker: It's like becoming like not crazy.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Kind of thing.
Speaker: Like Joe Rogan is having these various Christians on and he's like taking them seriously.
Speaker: And I think part of it is, well, I think there's a couple of things.
Speaker: One, you mentioned like earlier generations may have felt they're too enlightened to like,
Speaker: Embrace like more traditional expressions of a faith.
Speaker: I do think that we're we're starting to swing back the opposite way from the enlightenment and from a sort of over intellectual world that we've been in.
Speaker: So I think part of it is a swing away to be like.
Speaker: oh, you know, we do need mystery and spirituality and emotion.
Speaker: I think that's been happening for a little while.
Speaker: Yeah, and that can bring people to Eastern mysticism and sub-tube, which is the danger on that.
Speaker: Yes, totally.
Speaker: I also think this is something Shay said before because she listens to the True Crime and Paranormal podcast.
Speaker: It's the only podcast she listens to.
Speaker: Not even mine.
Speaker: Well, she listens to ours sometimes.
Speaker: Only those true crime and paranormal episodes we have.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: But there's so many stories.
Speaker: that take place around the Great Depression or around World War II.
Speaker: And it's like when there's been this really big sort of cultural, somewhat traumatic thing, people tend to turn back towards finding some meaning in the spiritual on multiple levels, which means you also see a rise in spiritualism.
Speaker: We have recently, regardless of like your view of it, we had COVID.
Speaker: Like it was 2020.
Speaker: Everybody was shut in.
Speaker: Everybody.
Speaker: It was a complete change.
Speaker: I was just talking to
Speaker: A teacher who came into Master Arts the other day and was chatting about some different things.
Speaker: And she was like, man, it's so hard to get kids to engage right now.
Speaker: This current age of students, there's something about the formative years that they had being during COVID.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That has just...
Speaker: radically impacted that generation.
Speaker: And so we did all go through this big sort of, and for maybe the first time ever, like worldwide traumatic sort of event, like it's sticking with us and switching our sort of orientation of things.
Speaker: I kept on during COVID, be like being, thinking like, it's so interesting that this thing that we're going through here, people in Arizona are going through it too.
Speaker: And it's just like,
Speaker: Wait, you have COVID too?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Russia has it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Everywhere had it.
Speaker: It was insane.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But that's our thing.
Speaker: And now we're all like,
Speaker: And it and it certainly in the US exacerbated a lot of our issues, I think.
Speaker: I think things got really heightened.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: During and after COVID.
Speaker: And so now we're like, what do we do, man?
Speaker: Where do we go?
Speaker: And so I think a lot of people are turning towards the spiritual.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people are looking back at Christianity.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And saying, OK.
Speaker: What is there?
Speaker: And I think a lot of people who maybe had some faith but had sort of let it slip are saying, no, God is what I believe in, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe they're not wholly back to a perfect theology yet.
Speaker: Lord willing, he'll guide them to the place of truth where he wants them to be.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: There is, I think, a sort of embracing of there is more and I think it's a person and I think it's a God and I think it's the Christian God.
Speaker: And like the current science is like going right along with that too and philosophy as well.
Speaker: Whereas like I think a lot of atheists are finding it untenable to like intellectually be an atheist.
Speaker: Like maybe I can be an agnostic type of thing.
Speaker: Yeah, new atheism is dying.
Speaker: There are still those out there who hold to it and, you know,
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I was like, more power to you.
Speaker: I don't really mean that, though.
Speaker: I mean, a little bit of the sentiment, but not most of the sentiment.
Speaker: Yeah, atheism is dying.
Speaker: Most people are agnostic.
Speaker: And a lot of the people who are agnostic or atheists that you talk to, when it comes down to it, are like, I would like there to be a God.
Speaker: I want that.
Speaker: I just, for one reason or another, I can't get there.
Speaker: So there's certainly a desire for it even in those who don't believe it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And a lot of... Not across the board, obviously, because I'm making a broad statement.
Speaker: So that's a generalization and there are nuances.
Speaker: I just always want people to remember that things are nuanced.
Speaker: We didn't know.
Speaker: Just in case.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But probably a lot of the reason why people have a hard time accepting it is because...
Speaker: experiences that they've had with, with the church or with, with Christians.
Speaker: I mean, of course, like nobody can come to the father unless they're, they're called drawn as well.
Speaker: But yeah,
Speaker: but people's imaginations and how they look at God are shaped by how we interact with them, how the church interacts with them and culture and art too.
Speaker: And so we, as always, but now we need to be shaping people's imaginations through our art and just as people and representatives of Christ, like, oh, that's a Christian.
Speaker: they treat me like this, they make me feel like this, they care about me like this, maybe that's more what Christ is.
Speaker: And yeah, how can we do that with our art then too?
Speaker: I would say, and I almost want to say this to our audience, because I feel like if I were hearing this, I would think, now I've got to get really forward, I punched my mic, I have to get really forward thinking and I have to figure out how can I build simplicity and truth and joy into my art.
Speaker: So I'm going to say this directly to the audience.
Speaker: I feel like I don't do that a whole lot.
Speaker: God gave you the art to make that you need to make.
Speaker: God gave you the art to make that you need to make.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Our art is certainly, ideally as Christians, shaped by the truth of God and his spirit in us.
Speaker: It is also shaped by our cultural moment.
Speaker: So you don't always need to worry about, is my art relevant to the cultural moment?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because it is because you are... You're part of the culture.
Speaker: You're part of the culture.
Speaker: You're the culture.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean...
Speaker: Obviously, our goal as Christians is to be a little bit removed from it, but it's kind of inescapable.
Speaker: We're in the country, yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I am a nerd who can spout off a bunch of Superman facts, as you just heard.
Speaker: I am shaped by that to a degree.
Speaker: Well, and I think that this is part of helping shape people's imagination is really is being honest and not being a fake like plastic.
Speaker: Christian who just does the says the perfect Christianese things, but just like is sincere about your faith and lives it as God made you like you're just like you out you audience out there.
Speaker: You're just like normal people and who God made to be that way ever improving and growing.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But I think that not being that trying to be plastic, perfect is a thing that can really turn people off and are not having the excellence in art.
Speaker: And because I think at the same time, there does seem to be a resurgence of
Speaker: of excellence in Christian art too.
Speaker: So that's really cool that these things are happening at the same time.
Speaker: So it's not like we have to get simplistic with what we're doing, but we can do it with excellence while being unashamed of what we believe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And a word you hit on there that I love that I think is sort of the
Speaker: north star right now for art artists like in the culture and i think is one of the best virtues coming out of this in our time is sincerity and earnestness true because we we grew up in the age of the marvel movie where
Speaker: some weird comic book thing would happen and then a character would look at it and be like, did that just happen?
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: That's the classic, you know, and just be real tongue in cheek about it or, or,
Speaker: You know, or be like, no, I'm not wearing purple pants as the Hulk, you know.
Speaker: Like, but just embracing this sincerity and earnestness in all levels of our life.
Speaker: And so we don't need to worry that our art isn't enough or that we aren't enough.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Ooh, I might be preaching to myself right now.
Speaker: Keep going.
Speaker: Keep going.
Speaker: keep going we don't need to worry that our art is enough or that we are enough because god put us where he put us he gave us what he gave us for a reason and so just be sincere in the perspective that god gave you in the heart that god gave you root yourself in him and just be earnest be sincere
Speaker: go through, say what's on your mind.
Speaker: Embrace your noseness.
Speaker: As in, oh, why am I not an eye or an ear in the body of Christ?
Speaker: Why do I have to be a nose and stuff?
Speaker: It may seem confusing to you, but God really needs you to be that nose and he made you to be that way.
Speaker: Without a nose, we couldn't smell garlic.
Speaker: We couldn't smell this wonderful candle that is what's like making sound in the background, if you've heard it.
Speaker: It's our ASMR element.
Speaker: Yes, that's why it's been so good.
Speaker: It stirs our brain base.
Speaker: Yes, embracing that niche that God has put you in.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you don't, that doesn't mean you have to like manhandle it and be like, I'm going to embrace my niche.
Speaker: Oh yeah.
Speaker: Like, oh, this is my thing.
Speaker: And so I'm going to be this really press into this quirky list about myself.
Speaker: Just like open hands.
Speaker: Don't think too much about yourself, but also don't be ashamed of who God made you to be.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: Recently, I had a day where it was just like, it felt like it was just chock full of like really difficult, like conversations and like,
Speaker: sort of like some stressful things and i was just like i'm just kind of trying to just go here and just i kind of just felt like i was just holding on and like god was just like putting me in these spots and was just like okay john i've just put you here be you in this spot i'm like ah okay but by the end of that day it was like it was very stressful and uh you know definitely weighed on me i've entered to you about it over the weekend for sure so like there are some things that weighed on me but also by the end of that day i was like no i feel like it just it felt
Speaker: I knew God was present with me throughout that day.
Speaker: I had seen him throughout that day.
Speaker: And I didn't have to work really hard.
Speaker: I mean, it was a hard day.
Speaker: There was hard work.
Speaker: But it was not like I had to create this regimen.
Speaker: Manipulate who you are.
Speaker: Yeah, manipulate it.
Speaker: I just had to live out who God made me to be.
Speaker: And like hearing you tell me about that day, I was just...
Speaker: like struck with like the beauty of who you are and who like, you know, who God made you to be.
Speaker: And so it's, it's a great thing to just live out who you are.
Speaker: And it was, it was just you being very you.
Speaker: And it's like that John, he's just being very, that's a lovely thing though.
Speaker: Oh, thanks.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Any other thoughts on this?
Speaker: Or have we covered everything?
Speaker: Every single nuance we could possibly have covered, we've done it.
Speaker: Yay, we've covered all the nuances.
Speaker: That's my dream is to cover all the nuances.
Speaker: Have all the bases covered.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Thanks for listening, everyone.
Speaker: Just rest in who God made you, the things he's given you to do with the people that he's put in your life because they need you through the power of the spirit, not through your own power to be who God made you to be.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: Thank you guys for listening to the podcast on the regular.
Speaker: Sorry, we've been a little irregular in our posts recently.
Speaker: There's a lot going on in the organization.
Speaker: There's a lot going on for Nate and I, but we're trying to get back on it.
Speaker: We're not dead.
Speaker: I don't think we've had a long enough break for you to think we're dead, but we're not.
Speaker: But if you enjoy listening, share us with your friends.
Speaker: Share us with your enemies.
Speaker: Also, maybe give your enemy a cake and love your enemy unless they don't like cake or allergic to cake.
Speaker: Then give them flowers unless they don't like flowers and are allergic to flowers.
Speaker: Cover all the nuances.
Speaker: Give them a hug.
Speaker: And if they don't like hugs and are allergic to you, you could do a high five.
Speaker: You could give them a feather duster because then they can get rid of all the dust in their home.
Speaker: You could offer to pay for an Uber to take them to wherever they want to go for their dream vacation.
Speaker: You could...
Speaker: It's like, how long is this gonna go on?
Speaker: Share us with whomever.
Speaker: And come see us at the Cultivate conference.
Speaker: Yes, we're gonna be, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about this.
Speaker: It's not really a live podcast episode.
Speaker: It's kind of a live podcast episode.
Speaker: And this wasn't intentional, it just sort of happened.
Speaker: It's gonna happen.
Speaker: Yeah, we're at the lunch hour.
Speaker: There's gonna be this panel conversation with some different actors in the area talking about how do you approach a role healthily as an actor?
Speaker: So we're going to talk about some of their experiences as actors, how they approached roles and how that was a benefit to them in their spiritual lives or harmed them in their spiritual lives.
Speaker: Things to look out for, things to proactively do.
Speaker: But Nate and I are going to be hosting that, doing a little bit of asking some questions, doing some Q&A, maybe just a smidgen of shenanigans.
Speaker: You never know.
Speaker: Keep it out.
Speaker: But this is at Artist of the Way's first conference?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Called Cultivate 25?
Speaker: Cultivate 25.
Speaker: When's it happening?
Speaker: It's happening October 18th.
Speaker: The Early Bird tickets are... I don't know if they're still available.
Speaker: They might not be available.
Speaker: They might not be available.
Speaker: So you should check right now because if they are still available... The prices are reasonable though.
Speaker: The prices are reasonable.
Speaker: And for a full day... Standard tickets are 24.
Speaker: So very reasonable price.
Speaker: There will be a link below me.
Speaker: This is gonna be a full day of great sessions about being an artist, about being, specifically there's several focuses, a focus on being a performer, sessions about being a director, and sessions about faith.
Speaker: And you can bounce around to which ones are interesting to you.
Speaker: There's so many teachers teaching these sessions of really interesting,
Speaker: topics.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker: The price really, even if you don't get the early bird special, the price is just $24 for a full day of these great classes and sessions.
Speaker: So it's a great deal.
Speaker: So yeah, just come out.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can also like and comment.
Speaker: We would love to hear your thoughts on the state of art today.
Speaker: Sincerity, different things like that.
Speaker: Comment down below and I'll try and do a better job of replying that I
Speaker: have of late because I've had a son, but I'm getting more on top of these things.
Speaker: Leave a review.
Speaker: We love to hear your feedback on the podcast.
Speaker: Come see us at Cultivate and give your neighbor a cake or flowers or a feather duster or a hug or an Uber to their favorite vacation spot.
Speaker: Thank you guys for listening.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: God bless.
