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Ephesians | ONE Adoption Episode 13
23 Plays4 months ago
In this episode Danny and Shane review the sermon from MVF Church. This is the beginning of the new series on Ephesians. They review some harder questions about predestination, being chosen, and the security of our salvation.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Ephesians Series
00:00:29
Danny Price
Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 13 of Table Talk Recap Podcast. We are going to be jumping into a new series um on Ephesians um here at MVF Church.
00:00:41
Danny Price
Shane, is there anything kind of like leading up to this? So obviously, this is the first... ah you know first sermon of the series.
Historical Context of Ephesus
00:00:47
Danny Price
Do you want to give a really quick background on just the background of Ephesians and kind of the setting, the who's writing it, who is who is writing it to, all that stuff, and then maybe anything that you want to just overview from the sermon really quickly before we jump into the questions? Yeah.
00:01:02
Shane
Yeah, sure. um So Ephesians, as I mentioned on sunday Sunday, is written by Paul to the church in Ephesus. um Paul established the church there. It's in Acts chapter 18 that we we see that.
00:01:19
Shane
And in Acts chapter 28, that's what we think he was writing to the church when he was under house arrest. um Ephesus was a very big city. um It was also the city where if you read the letters to Timothy, first and second Timothy, he was the main kind church leader there that he left there.
00:01:45
Shane
um So it's kind of interesting to read those letters to Timothy when you read Ephesians to kind of get a feel
Cultural Diversity and Unity in Ephesus
00:01:54
Shane
for the whole thing. Yeah.
00:01:57
Shane
there was a huge ah cult there called the, um, the, was the worship of, um, era Artemis, the worship of Artemis.
00:02:06
Danny Price
Right, right.
00:02:06
Shane
Um, and, uh, they had a big temple, uh, devoted to, her and, um, which, um, is part of it caused, caused issues there within the church as well.
00:02:21
Shane
Um, Yeah, um just big, big city. lot So like you would think of a big city, there's a diversity of cultures, um different religions.
00:02:32
Shane
um You know, he's writing to, and you'll see that in um Ephesians more than the rest of Paul's books. epistles to the actual churches. he You can see him using language about unifying Jews and Greeks more because there were more Jews and Greeks or both people living among each other.
00:02:48
Danny Price
um and
00:02:52
Danny Price
Right.
00:02:54
Shane
um so yeah.
00:02:54
Danny Price
OK.
Significance of Paul's Journeys
00:02:58
Danny Price
Remind me, this is modern day Turkey, modern day Greece, modern day Turkey.
00:03:03
Shane
Turkey.
00:03:05
Danny Price
I'm pretty sure it's Turkey.
00:03:06
Shane
Yeah, it's Turkey.
00:03:06
Danny Price
That feels right.
00:03:07
Shane
Yeah.
00:03:08
Danny Price
Okay, cool. um That's kind of cool. Man, this is just a side topic. I would love to go just kind of do like Paul's trip, like so to speak, or Paul's trips.
00:03:19
Danny Price
He took multiple, but just to see all the places that he went.
00:03:20
Shane
and so
00:03:23
Danny Price
You have not been there anywhere, right? You've been to Israel?
00:03:25
Shane
No, i but yeah i did I did Israel and Turkey.
00:03:26
Danny Price
Oh, you have.
00:03:29
Shane
um
00:03:29
Danny Price
Oh, you did. Oh, geez.
00:03:30
Shane
Yeah. Now we didn't do, when we did Turkey, we didn't do all the Pauline churches. um But, you know, we did see Ephesus and Ephesus was, was definitely the coolest of our stops.
00:03:46
Danny Price
Okay.
00:03:46
Shane
oh Quite frankly, some of the stops are kind of in lame. ah
00:03:50
Danny Price
No, I checked out. Yeah.
00:03:51
Shane
You know, there's not much there. So that depends on the historian that you have with you, the guide that you have with you.
00:03:53
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:03:57
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:03:57
Shane
um And she was ours was great.
00:03:59
Danny Price
That's true.
00:03:59
Shane
She was great. she yeah yeah Oh, wait, no, I take that back. we In Israel, we had a different guide. She was great. In Turkey, not so much. um So the guide really kind of does – make or break some of those stops.
00:04:12
Danny Price
Totally.
00:04:12
Shane
But Ephesus was awesome because the library is still there.
00:04:13
Danny Price
Totally. Yeah.
00:04:17
Shane
The Coliseum is still there. there I mean, there's just, there's, it's very well observed.
00:04:21
Danny Price
There's a lot.
00:04:23
Shane
Yeah.
00:04:23
Danny Price
That's kind of cool. No, I'd love to do that one day. Israel, I know, is kind of tumultuous right now, so I don't know if that's happening, but I don't know about surrounding areas. I'm guessing Turkey's a little bit like that, but I'm sure like Greece and other places are fine, but man, I'd love to do that.
00:04:35
Shane
Yeah.
00:04:37
Danny Price
That'd be so fun.
00:04:38
Shane
Yep.
00:04:38
Danny Price
Anyways.
Apostles vs. Disciples
00:04:40
Danny Price
um Awesome. So Ephesians opens up and Paul... Essentially, you know, he greets the the church, but then he also calls himself an apostle and he kind of states a little bit of his credentials, so to speak.
00:04:52
Danny Price
um one What is an apostle? What's the difference between apostle and disciple? Is apostle something that we have today? what's What does that mean? What is apostle?
00:05:00
Shane
Yeah, but there's there's definitely difference between apostle and disciple. We are all disciples. Everyone who calls himself a follower Jesus is a disciple of Christ. An apostle definitely has carries with it a different authority.
00:05:15
Shane
um
00:05:15
Danny Price
Okay.
00:05:16
Shane
The apostle was one who pretty much, like if I were to send you to a meeting on my behalf, would you you could be my apostle.
00:05:28
Shane
And were you if you spoke in the meeting and and and said that you're doing it with my authority, it would be taken as my authority.
00:05:37
Danny Price
Okay.
00:05:40
Shane
It would be like you, you would have the exact authority that I had.
00:05:41
Danny Price
Okay.
00:05:45
Shane
um
00:05:45
Danny Price
Got it.
00:05:45
Shane
And um what we would call that like um power of attorney almost in in some ways, you know, but it was even more, it was greater than that.
00:05:50
Danny Price
Sure. Yeah.
00:05:53
Shane
There was a greater respect with it because it was an earned title, um
00:05:57
Danny Price
Got it.
00:05:58
Shane
And yeah, so first century apostles. And there were apostles of other people and things at the time.
00:06:06
Danny Price
Interesting. Okay. Cool. um Wanted to tackle a little bit of the harder questions, um which this is going to be full of, which is awesome. Love that.
00:06:16
Danny Price
Just
Understanding Predestination
00:06:17
Danny Price
getting into stuff. So he starts off right away talking about how he, chose that Jesus, God chose us before the foundation of the world um and that he predestined us for adoption, ah which is, this is some big words really quick before we get into um trying to like just delve into like the depths of it.
00:06:37
Danny Price
Can you just give us a quick explanation of just what is, what is the argument around predestination, so to speak? um You don't necessarily have to give where you line up right now or what you're thinking about, but just what does that mean? Cause I know people, lot of people do know what that is, but if there's anyone listening that is unaware, I don't want them just totally confused.
00:06:55
Shane
Yeah. Well, the word predestined means that, you know, it was, it was destined earlier, right? I mean, it was, it was meant to be earlier.
00:07:07
Danny Price
Well said.
00:07:08
Shane
So that's kind of, an he yeah that's that's the basic meaning of it, that, that God, that, So people that believe in predestination would say that God destined you to be a Christ follower.
00:07:23
Shane
he He chose it. He mandated it, however you want to say that. He ordained it um so that from the beginning, before the foundation of the world, God is all knowing.
00:07:28
Danny Price
Mm-hmm.
00:07:36
Shane
he's And it's it's built on the... the character of God, of his sovereignty, the theology, right?
00:07:41
Danny Price
Right.
00:07:42
Shane
That God is all-knowing, he's all-powerful. so So therefore, it it only makes sense and falls mind that by that, at least according to people who would buy into this, that he therefore chose it.
00:07:58
Shane
um And that you have really, so you go so far, those that would call themselves like a five-point Calvinist and you know that's a whole other bag worms, but um would say that you really have that there's no human choice in it.
00:08:07
Danny Price
Right.
00:08:13
Danny Price
right
00:08:14
Shane
um There are some that would go that far to say that. um And yeah, that's that's kind of the ah gamut of the your basic thinking of it.
00:08:23
Danny Price
Yeah, right. Yeah. And I would add to that which i which I agree with too, is that there's no work. A lot a lot of people who believe in true pre ah predestination and lot of the theology that comes with it is there's no works that you can do to save yourself, which is a pretty core tenant of most Christianity.
00:08:42
Shane
Yes.
00:08:45
Danny Price
And they definitely, you know, if you're more um reformed, I guess you would lean more into that, but there's no work that you're doing that is saving yourself. it's ah it's ah It's completely a free gift of God. Would you agree ah probably agree with that?
00:08:55
Shane
and Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:57
Danny Price
And then there's more debates about that.
00:08:57
Shane
I would say almost anyone. Yeah. Yeah. I would say almost any Christian who,
00:09:05
Shane
who mainline denomination, who isn't that but is Protestant, broke off at the Catholic church, would not believe in in works as part of salvation.
00:09:15
Danny Price
Right. Right.
00:09:16
Shane
Yeah.
00:09:17
Danny Price
So that being said, just kind of jumping into this a little bit, describe a little bit where, what you've currently been
Interpretations of Predestination
00:09:24
Danny Price
wrestling with. I know you mentioned on the Sunday sermon, at least in the first service you mentioned, um,
00:09:28
Danny Price
you're seeing things in a different way sometimes, and you've been a little bit persuaded maybe in some ah reformed theology. Is that what this verse is dealing about or these verses, or is that what it's dealing with specifically is that type of predestination? um And where are you, where are you in this, in this journey?
00:09:46
Danny Price
So to speak.
00:09:47
Shane
Yeah. um Well, let me deal with what this what this passage, some of the debate about this passage before I get into it, where I'm at.
00:09:53
Danny Price
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:55
Shane
The debate about this passage is, like I said, he's he's writing to predominantly Greeks, but also a congregation that's filled with predominantly Greeks with some Jews.
00:10:07
Shane
And he is and and so there are those who would argue, and and i'm kind of inclined in when it comes to this passage, believe that the saying you were chosen or you were predestined, he's he's referring to the Gentiles. And he's saying, hey, from the beginning, the plan was that Christ would come and open up salvation for all people. um And you are a part of that.
00:10:38
Danny Price
Right.
00:10:38
Shane
Now, the reason I would believe that in this spot specifically that...
00:10:46
Shane
so much of the language after this, his argument is that we are all one in Christ. Like he's, so he's, he's leading up to this argument that he has.
00:10:56
Danny Price
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:10:56
Shane
Um, we aren't separate. God, God through his, this act has made us one. And, um, so I, I would probably say, dang it, my dogs are barking. Sorry.
00:11:09
Shane
Um,
00:11:09
Danny Price
No, it's fine.
00:11:10
Shane
I would say that fall. I definitely used to fall completely. i was like, nope, that's all that means. That's all it means is that it doesn't have anything to do with anything else.
00:11:19
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:11:21
Shane
um and And yet now I would say, yeah, I think that's a lot of what he's saying in this particular passage where he talks about predestination.
00:11:30
Danny Price
OK. OK.
00:11:32
Shane
Now, as far as me and my journey, which you asked, I
00:11:35
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:11:38
Shane
I would say, I said, that's where I felt fell for that. and then But the problem with that is there's, and this is why I didn't just get into that argument with this on Sunday.
00:11:50
Shane
but What I was trying to do is just open up the idea that look, This is something that is talked about throughout
Personal Beliefs on Predestination and Calvinism
00:11:58
Shane
the Bible. You know, we see places where God chose over and over and over again.
00:11:59
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:12:04
Shane
um Paul uses the word predestined and and talks about us being predestined in other places where he's not in any way making Gentile Jewish arguments.
00:12:15
Shane
um
00:12:15
Danny Price
Right.
00:12:16
Shane
You know, so so I've, all I'm trying to do is go, hey, Shane, And I've got so much baggage wrapped up in this. I don't know if we want to get into all that, but but I've got a lot of baggages from my past wrapped up in it and why it kind of really affected me.
00:12:32
Shane
but
00:12:32
Danny Price
and
00:12:33
Shane
But I will say that i that baggage made me for a while just write off all verses. Then it was like, I don't know.
00:12:41
Danny Price
and
00:12:41
Shane
i don't understand it, but there's no way that's what God's – there's no way what that's what the Bible is talking about. And I just rubbed off.
00:12:46
Danny Price
Right.
00:12:48
Shane
And now I'm no longer at that place. Now I'm at a place where I really wrestle with it and go, okay, God is sovereign. and And at some level, there's there's got there's a truth in this. Now I've got to i've got to figure this out.
00:13:04
Danny Price
Right. Yeah, if you bypass the Bible and say, well, it doesn't matter what the Bible says, I have feelings about so-and-so topic, it you can just completely go over the head of whatever because it doesn't matter.
00:13:11
Shane
Mm-hmm.
00:13:16
Danny Price
You've already made your conclusion.
00:13:16
Shane
Yeah.
00:13:18
Danny Price
um I'm really in the same position as you. I don't think our backgrounds were necessarily similar. um I'm wrestling with this too just because... do I say this?
00:13:28
Danny Price
I want to be careful how I say this.
00:13:29
Shane
sure.
00:13:30
Danny Price
People who are Reformed and people who... or tend to be more conservative Christians really impress me with their, not only their knowledge of the word, but they're really high view of God.
00:13:41
Danny Price
Um, I've noticed, and I love that in a high view of the Bible.
00:13:41
Shane
yeah first
00:13:45
Danny Price
And so, which I tend to have anyways. So for me, at least that's always been something that I think I really am like gravitate towards, but then there's some of these theologies like, and this would be a case where growing up, I think I,
00:14:02
Danny Price
I was definitely raised not this way. It wasn't something that was super talked about. And then as I've gotten older, and i I don't know if it's just because of media and there's like a resurgence of some of that stuff, but I definitely am a lot more aware of it.
00:14:13
Danny Price
And it is a secondary issue. So I'm not, and I think you would agree with that. It's not like a, and I think you mentioned that on Sunday, it's not like a primary issue by any means, but it is something that comes up very often and people do divide over, hopefully respectfully and as brothers in Christ.
00:14:23
Shane
Thank
00:14:26
Danny Price
But it's something that I've been trying to explore more. And I, I have a lot of, there's a lot of internal thoughts and a lot of different people that I listen to and consume in terms of like their messages and other stuff, not even here at Mountain View.
00:14:40
Danny Price
There's a whole, it's all across the board in terms of where people land, which I hope is a good thing, but it does make me confused because there's some great points on all sides. And it really does, it does make it hard to like, I don't know, i feel like every day I'll listen to something or I'll hear someone talk about something.
00:14:57
Danny Price
And I'm like, that's a great point. I never thought about that. and Then i I move my flag a little bit closer towards like, okay, I'm fully, you know, and in term, you know, not Calvinism, but I guess whatever, fully in that camp.
00:15:01
Shane
Thank
00:15:06
Danny Price
And then I'll hear something else and go, yeah, that's a good point. i didn't think about that. And then you know, so do you get, do you get that at all? Is that, and has that happened to you? We're just, it's hard to know where you line up exactly.
00:15:16
Shane
Yeah, I do. In fact, I i sometimes like go, God, why can't I just be that person who is just so convicted of these secondary things? um Because it would just be so much easier.
00:15:27
Danny Price
and
00:15:29
Shane
I do. um i but i do Yeah, I will...
00:15:30
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:15:34
Shane
because I don't want to just ignore it. So I do listen to things and I do study things. I try to read different stuff and from different perspectives and, and I i will, I'll get like, yeah, no, there is, there's an aspect to that.
00:15:47
Shane
That's important or no.
00:15:48
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:15:49
Shane
Well, okay. Yeah. But this, the scripture also says this, you know, and I,
00:15:53
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:15:53
Shane
so i we'll move, move around a little bit. And I think that's okay. You know, i i mean, I hope it is because I definitely do it. um
00:16:01
Danny Price
you know
00:16:01
Shane
And I think the key is that we're always seeking Christ in it, you know.
00:16:03
Danny Price
Well,
00:16:08
Danny Price
I did want to say too, I don't want to make it sound if anyone's listening, like all these perspectives that are using the Bible as the authority, not using just thought.
00:16:17
Shane
Yes.
00:16:18
Danny Price
but So if you're curious about this, this isn't like there's there's team what the Bible says and team not what the Bible says. I guess there is some of that in some categories, but for the most part, It's different interpretations of the Bible.
00:16:30
Danny Price
When I say perspectives, I don't want people to think that I'm just saying, well, someone just has a thought and just saying that thought. And that's interesting. That's not something that I would ever follow. It would have to be an interpretation of the Bible or a verses in the Bible.
00:16:42
Danny Price
I just wanted to make that, make that clarification.
00:16:44
Shane
that That's a great – that's really important,
Resources on Predestination and Free Will
00:16:48
Shane
Danny. That's a great clarification because that actually goes back to what I was saying on Sunday a little bit is that you can't just write it off because you don't like it.
00:16:55
Shane
And unfortunately, the a lot of people – and that's kind of where I was I would say 10, 12 years was –
00:16:55
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:17:01
Shane
was i I didn't like it. so I just didn't didn acknowledge it versus like saying, okay, no, I'm going to look at the scripture. We're going to look at this holistically in the scripture and then wrestle with these things. And yeah, and and I know the guys you listen to and I know that, yeah, there are definitely people that are like, okay, let's look at the word.
00:17:19
Shane
But yeah, that's so important what you just said.
00:17:19
Danny Price
yeah sure
00:17:21
Shane
Like but if you're going to research these things, man, make sure you're researching it based on God's word, not on people's opinions and thoughts.
00:17:32
Danny Price
yeah that's good um
00:17:33
Shane
Good point.
00:17:36
Danny Price
So if you were to research this, um I'm not saying that this is something that it necessarily deserves a ton of attention because you can get really sucked into some some of these secondary things. But if you're listening if someone's listening to this, they want to know more.
00:17:49
Danny Price
What are some resources besides just the Bible and reading through lot of Paul's letters? What are some resources that people could use or books or authors or podcasts? What would be a good good place to go?
00:18:02
Shane
Wow, that's ah that's a good one. um You know, i like you the guy you turned me on to, the ah Bible.
00:18:11
Danny Price
Mike Winger.
00:18:12
Shane
ah Yeah, Mike Winger, what's his thing? The Bible thinking?
00:18:15
Danny Price
Bible thinker.
00:18:15
Shane
but
00:18:16
Danny Price
Almighty Mike Winger.
00:18:17
Shane
Bible thinker. Yeah, Mike Winger, the think.
00:18:20
Danny Price
I'm such a sucker. I'm such a sucker for him. I love his stuff.
00:18:23
Shane
yeah ah But I really do like him because he he he really does a good job of trying to look at the different sides of whatever issue he's he's studying.
00:18:35
Shane
um You and I probably disagree a little bit on him in that I think it's – you can usually tell within like six minutes of where he actually stands on it. Yeah.
00:18:43
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:18:45
Shane
it's you You know, and even just the way he talks about it.
00:18:45
Danny Price
yeah
00:18:48
Shane
but But I do think when he when he goes with the Bible on it, he's he's really doing his best to – you know, to really look at it and and examine.
00:18:58
Danny Price
Okay.
00:18:59
Shane
um So he's he's a good one. um You know, if you want to get um into deeper, um John Piper has a book called The Justification of God.
00:19:12
Shane
um And
00:19:12
Danny Price
Okay.
00:19:15
Shane
R.C. Sproul, R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God. um is Those are two pretty pretty famous books that are somewhat modern.
00:19:23
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:19:24
Shane
um that have been written on it. um And then if you're wanting to get into the free will, anything by John Wesley, um he's probably one of the big names in
00:19:31
Danny Price
Sure.
00:19:36
Danny Price
OK.
00:19:36
Shane
and free will Armenian kind of theology. um And I think Thomas Aquinas, but see, that's that's getting old school when you get into Thomas Aquinas.
00:19:48
Danny Price
Yeah, that's way old, which I'm not against. I think some people write that stuff off completely.
00:19:52
Shane
Yeah. Yeah. if If people can read it, if you, if you're good on reading it, it's just kind of, kind of, um, hard one.
00:19:58
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:19:59
Shane
The good, another good one to just read like one book that I think kind of does a pretty good job in presenting all of it is, um, uh, J. I. Packer's, uh, evangelism and the sovereignty of God.
00:20:10
Danny Price
Ooh, interesting.
00:20:10
Shane
And, and it kind of deals with, yeah, it deals with our role, our responsibility, um,
00:20:11
Danny Price
That is a big debate.
00:20:18
Shane
like Like, you know, that we are responsible still for things, even though God is sovereign.
00:20:25
Danny Price
Yeah, right.
00:20:25
Shane
So,
00:20:26
Danny Price
There's obedience. Yeah, that's good.
00:20:27
Shane
Yeah.
00:20:29
Danny Price
um I'm trying to think of anyone else that I've listened to. that there James White, he's a he's on YouTube. um He's definitely more on like the Calvinism side, but he's, man, that dude is but very learned, very wise. um And I know him and Mike Winger have back and forth on a lot of stuff because because theyre they see things a little differently, but both of them just, man, they love the word.
00:20:49
Shane
Yeah.
00:20:50
Danny Price
So that's someone else that I've i've watched some of his stuff. Well, cool.
00:20:53
Shane
Yeah.
00:20:53
Danny Price
Good.
00:20:53
Shane
Yeah.
00:20:54
Danny Price
So we're going to move on from that. I mean, it it'll stuff will come up. um
00:20:58
Shane
yeah
00:20:58
Danny Price
But I just wanted to kind of throw some of that stuff out there, just for anyone who's listening that wants to delve into that a little bit more. Actually, you know what? I take that back because I'm looking at my my questions. so I did want to ask this question on just on your perspective on verses 12 and 13.
00:21:15
Danny Price
Does that have anything to do with predestination or being chosen or the kind of the free will aspect of stuff?
Belief vs. Predestination
00:21:22
Shane
Yeah, I meant to open this, and I'm i'm doing it right now. I'm opening up verse 12 and 13. I'm just going read it, if that's okay. 11, 12.
00:21:31
Danny Price
Actually, maybe maybe read from 11 through 14. Because then other questions I have are about the rest of those verses too.
00:21:34
Shane
yeah yeah
00:21:36
Danny Price
so
00:21:37
Shane
It says, in him we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined cordon to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in christ might be to the praise of his glory in him you also when you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised holy spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory I read through 14.
00:22:08
Danny Price
Perfect.
00:22:09
Shane
oh
00:22:10
Danny Price
Does that make sense, what I'm asking about?
00:22:10
Shane
Okay.
00:22:11
Danny Price
like it's it It seems like there's obviously predestined predestination thrown in there, but it seems like there is a little bit of that like you heard and you and you chose and you believed. Does that make sense?
00:22:22
Shane
Yeah.
00:22:22
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:22:23
Shane
Yeah. So, so you're, so what, but I guess I'm actually a little confused by your question because you said, do they contradict the belief that we have no free will?
00:22:34
Shane
yeah Okay, so you're saying does contradict the idea that that we don't have free will, like what what people from predestination would say?
00:22:34
Danny Price
um Maybe I maybe i maybe
00:22:40
Danny Price
That's a double classic double negative, making it hard to understand.
00:22:41
Shane
Yeah. Yeah, okay.
00:22:43
Danny Price
Sorry.
00:22:44
Shane
that's okay um Yeah, so that's what I was actually going to point out that, yeah, I mean, it you know on one side, he's saying, yeah having been predestined according to the purpose of him, you know who works all things.
00:22:54
Danny Price
Mm-hmm.
00:22:58
Shane
um So you know there's on one side, he's got this, this happened. But then he's like, and when you when you believe, when you heard it and then believed, you were included. And so there are definitely...
00:23:11
Shane
Those who would say, yeah, he's showing here that obviously you had to make you had to come to that point of of believing, you know, and that's where people would say that's not a work to just believe.
00:23:24
Shane
That's that's just that's just an opening, you know, and and the and the people and I say where I lie is that, yeah, God does.
00:23:24
Danny Price
Right.
00:23:33
Shane
So God does all this work to open our, to to call to us. He's constantly calling to us. But the only the only thing we actually do is we we listen, you know, we just listen, you know.
00:23:47
Danny Price
We have faith. We have faith or, yeah.
00:23:50
Shane
And...
00:23:51
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:23:51
Shane
and That's different than a work, you know, because there are people that go, well, what did did God Christ work on the cross only do 99% of the work and you had to do 1%?
00:24:03
Shane
No, Christ did all the work.
00:24:03
Danny Price
Yep.
00:24:05
Shane
I still can't. I didn't earn anything in my salvation. you know, I would never, ever try to say that. um I would just say that I actually... I acknowledge that it happened, you know, so the way I was, the free will side of it for me is Christ did all the work to give me a gift.
00:24:24
Shane
I, I just, but I had to put my hands out and receive it, you know, and that that's not a work.
00:24:27
Danny Price
Right. Yeah.
00:24:30
Shane
I wouldn't, I wouldn't see it as a work, but you know, yeah.
00:24:32
Danny Price
Yeah. And that, that gets to the heart of it because then someone who's Calvinist would, yeah, would say, well, yeah, but you, but what makes you different from someone who is a non-believer?
00:24:35
Shane
Yeah.
00:24:41
Danny Price
Did that you must have done something? And by doing something you must, and then you go down. so it's a whole, it's a whole, it's a whole thing, which is very, which I love.
00:24:47
Shane
Yeah.
00:24:49
Danny Price
And as long as people are still in community with others, mean, I love, I love that stuff. Cause we all, we want, you know, to be,
00:24:54
Shane
Yep. that
00:24:58
Danny Price
living in according to the Bible. So, but that's good.
00:24:59
Shane
ye
00:25:00
Danny Price
So I'm glad you kind of talked about some of those verses, um, or you read the whole thing. i did want to go back a little bit and I could tell, and I know you talked about being really passionate about this just, and just God's grace that he is it overwhelming abundance that he lavishes on us.
00:25:17
Danny Price
Um, you, I know you spent some time on that in the message and it's really clear that that means a lot to you. How, I mean, I know I do. I forget about that all the time.
00:25:27
Danny Price
And I don't, I don't extend that grace to other people that I've been given a lot of times. I'm, you know, I, I'm very, um, and I don't, I don't want to say like, I'm like that guy in the parable that goes and finds the guy after he's been forgiven such a big debt that goes and finds the guy with the smaller debt.
00:25:34
Shane
Mm-hmm.
00:25:43
Danny Price
But I can feel myself sometimes like that. How do we keep God's grace in front of us on a day-to-day basis?
00:25:45
Shane
Mm-hmm.
00:25:49
Danny Price
Um, how do you do that?
00:25:51
Shane
mean,
Understanding Grace Through Marriage
00:25:52
Shane
that's so tough. I think one is keeping a spirit of humility. um rim Praying often to see and love people through God's eyes versus our own eyes. To...
00:26:09
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:26:10
Shane
to You know, I love Philippians chapter two where, you know, he who equal God didn't see equality with God, something to grasped. Like talking about Christ's humility and going to the cross for us. You know, keeping that the truth of the gospel in so much in front of us that we just always remember that, man,
00:26:35
Shane
there by the grace of God, there go I, you know, the kind of thing that, that I, I, who am i to say or judge because i have just been given so many blessings and gifts.
00:26:39
Danny Price
yeah
00:26:48
Shane
And, um,
00:26:51
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:26:51
Shane
that That's a hard one. you know and And there again, I use the analogy of so of marriage a lot. And I know it can be tiresome sometimes to people. But I do believe i believe our marriage is probably the, and not probably, I believe those who are married, the most important testimony you have, I believe, is your marriage.
00:27:10
Shane
um act living out anyway.
00:27:11
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:27:13
Shane
And, you know, and our marriage is, and the reason I believe that is because we're literally called to be one with our spouse.
00:27:14
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:27:24
Shane
And if we, and, and, it's It's like, and he says that Christ loved the church as, you know, as Christ of the church, a husband should love his wife. And as a wife submits to, so there's this beautiful analogy in this mirror in this relationship.
00:27:33
Danny Price
Right, right, right.
00:27:39
Shane
and And so, and quite honestly, one the quickest people for me to show no grace to is my wife. You know, the the quickest person for me to be upset that you didn't do as much as I did this week and I did this and how come you don't do it this, you know, that.
00:27:54
Shane
And so i you know, I constantly my my prayer, i would say every day, I know there's days I forget, but my prayer every day as much as I can is.
00:27:56
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:28:04
Shane
is is God help me to love her through your eyes. Help me to see her through your eyes and love her through your eyes. Love her the way you love her. and um And I feel miserably at that, but it's a constant reminder to me to show show her grace the way um the way he shows me grace.
00:28:21
Shane
and home you know and and on And to love her the way he loves me. you know So anyway, it's kind of a ramble.
00:28:27
Danny Price
Right. No, that's, that's no, that's good though. And I, I don't get tired at least of that. The marriage analogies. Um, it helps it put, at least for people who are married, I'm supposed to, it helps just put skin onto what you're saying.
00:28:40
Shane
Thank you.
00:28:42
Danny Price
Cause it's a very easy, you have, you know it's easy to have thousands of examples. And i I know for me, you know, I have hundreds of times throughout, you know, our marriage where I've forgotten or haven't showed enough grace to Hannah in certain, certain areas. And haven't done that.
00:28:57
Danny Price
It's very easy to be like, oh yeah, man, that's a great, It's a great example. um i I tend to, and I don't i don't think you're as much as this way as I am. I tend to be just more cynical, I guess, and judgmental of people.
00:29:12
Danny Price
um And less of, I don't know, like, not that I don't necessarily show grace to them or I'm so excited for that and I want them to come into the kingdom, but just in...
00:29:23
Danny Price
in everyday like circumstances, not necessarily when it comes to like their, you know, capital S sin and all that stuff. Like I'm like, Oh yeah, show grace to that person. You know, that poor person that just needs to know the gospel.
00:29:34
Danny Price
It's more of like the little nitty gritty things. i find myself not being as, forgiving of. Does that make sense when I say that? Do you get, um like, i I don't know.
00:29:42
Shane
Yeah.
00:29:44
Danny Price
i i struggle I struggle with just being like, you know what, I'm going assume the best of them and they probably didn't know when they cut me off in traffic or that's like a simple example, but that kind of stuff. I don't show grace in those situations. You know, it's hard for me, you know, to genuinely be, you know, take that attitude of humility.
00:30:01
Shane
Yeah. No, I will say that there's there's those incidental things. I can get that way. I'm laughing when you say that because I literally – was on the phone with a buddy this morning and you know, that stop sign down by our house.
00:30:15
Shane
It's kind of easy to to go through it.
00:30:17
Danny Price
Oh yeah, totally. Uh
00:30:18
Shane
And, and I did, i yielded a little bit and been, and then went, but I didn't look good enough because man, like within two seconds there, there was a truck like right behind me.
00:30:29
Shane
Now he might've been going too fast or whatever.
00:30:29
Danny Price
huh.
00:30:31
Shane
And I, but, but either way, started telling my friend, I'm like, I'm like, oh, hate when I do that. And then I'm like, man, because if I'm that guy right now, I'm like, this jerk, this idiot, man, why who he thinks he's better than everyone.
00:30:40
Danny Price
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:30:44
Shane
He thinks he's so important. he I like put these all these thoughts in his head, right?
00:30:47
Danny Price
Oh, yeah.
00:30:48
Shane
Like he he did this on purpose to spite me. and but And I don't show any grace at all. And, ah you know, and i was as I was like, so now then my head, that's what he's thinking about me. And, you know, so, but yeah, it's a very common thing to do when, you know,
00:31:03
Danny Price
Yep.
00:31:04
Shane
when someone slides up.
00:31:05
Danny Price
Yep. Yeah, we judge, what what is that quote that I've heard? We judge others by their actions and only their actions, but we judge ourselves by our intentions.
00:31:11
Shane
yeah
00:31:13
Danny Price
It's like, well, I didn't mean to.
00:31:13
Shane
Yep.
00:31:14
Danny Price
It's like, yeah, but you still did. You still did go through the stop sign.
00:31:16
Shane
yeah Yep.
00:31:19
Danny Price
Yeah, that's tough. um That's something I'm working on. And hopefully that's the sanctification sanctification process in my life. I just get a little softer with that kind of stuff.
Role of the Holy Spirit in Salvation
00:31:28
Danny Price
um So at the end of...
00:31:32
Danny Price
kind of the section that you read, um it talks about the Holy Spirit and that we're sealed with the promised Holy Spirit um and that he guarantees our salvation.
00:31:36
Shane
Okay.
00:31:43
Danny Price
Can you talk a little bit about that? ah What does that mean? is is that Does that mean that once you're once you've been given like giving your life to the Lord, you're you're sealed, it's done, there's nothing that you can do to lose your salvation? Can you can you know say you're so you say say you're saved and then reject that free gift, so to speak, like you're saying.
00:32:03
Danny Price
I know i don't want to get crazy down that, the whole once saved, always saved rabbit trail, but i do I did want to just scratch the surface a little bit. Do you mind talking about that? What does that mean that we're sealed by the Holy Spirit and how does that work?
00:32:14
Shane
Yeah. um So the word, um can I'm just going to pull up, I pulled up some of my notes that I didn't have time for Sunday, but that I thought were, it was good.
00:32:22
Danny Price
Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. Huh.
00:32:27
Shane
I just, I knew I was i was running out of time. So I had to kill it. Well, I didn't run ah out of time.
00:32:31
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:32:31
Shane
I ran over time. um So ah the word Paul uses ah for, it says that he guarantees our salvation is um
00:32:43
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:32:44
Shane
is Arobon. It's a Greek word, Arobon. And it basically was a like that he's the, there was a
00:32:48
Danny Price
Uh-huh.
00:32:53
Shane
you um there was a um transaction, a a business type transaction that people made in the day where they would, if they made the down payment, ah they gave a portion.
00:33:04
Shane
it it It was like a guarantee that the final portion was coming. So it was it was kind of like earnest money or what we used to do, like layaway.
00:33:09
Danny Price
Interesting.
00:33:12
Shane
We don't do layaway anymore, but that...
00:33:14
Danny Price
What happened to layaway? Kmart? What happened to Kmart?
00:33:16
Shane
It's called MasterCard and Visa. That's what happened. to it Everyone wants it right now rather than paying a little bit for over time. um But anyway, it was the idea that it was a guarantee and it was even a much stronger guarantee.
00:33:32
Shane
Like it was, you know, it was like you would be held liable in court, you know, if you didn't fulfill it.
00:33:34
Danny Price
Hmm.
00:33:38
Danny Price
OK. OK.
00:33:39
Shane
So that's the word he's saying that Holy Spirit does. and So it's like you get a piece, you're getting a piece right now of your salvation that you're eventually going to have a full inheritance of.
00:33:52
Danny Price
Right.
00:33:52
Shane
Um,
00:33:52
Danny Price
OK.
00:33:54
Shane
So, you know, when you talk about it, so, but you're, I think you also were kind of asking, like, does that mean you can't lose it? Is that kind of what, where you're end with this?
00:34:01
Danny Price
Yeah, well, because Yeah. And the reason I say that is because this is one of the most common verses that somebody who believes in once saved, always saved would say, because they would say, well, you're sealed with the promised Holy spirit.
00:34:12
Danny Price
And it's, it gives the, and the, it gives the interpretation or it lends itself to the interpretation that it's done. Like when you're saved, when you give your life to the Lord, like you're sealed with the Holy spirit and you're, you're you're in, and there's nothing that you can do to lose it.
00:34:26
Shane
Yeah.
00:34:27
Danny Price
Um, you to talk about that?
00:34:27
Shane
Yeah.
00:34:29
Danny Price
Yeah. that That's kind of like a little bit of a side thing.
00:34:30
Shane
Yeah, I mean, and I i would... I would lean towards that. um You know, and then the argument is, well, what about the person who looks should like like they shed a lot of fruit, but then 10 years later, they're, you know, not in any way, you know, so the, you know, the hard part is we can't see inside someone's heart.
00:34:44
Danny Price
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:54
Shane
There's no way for you and I to see in someone's heart.
00:34:54
Danny Price
Sure.
00:34:56
Danny Price
Sure.
00:34:57
Shane
look in And, and, you You can do a lot of good works. I mean, we we both know people who are not. Oh, man, I'm sorry. We both know people who are not saved, who who have never given a life to Christ, who who are darn good people by the world's standards.
00:35:06
Danny Price
If I...
00:35:14
Shane
You know, forget the theology is there's no one.
00:35:14
Danny Price
Yeah.
00:35:16
Shane
You know, forget that theology, right, for just a minute.
00:35:16
Danny Price
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:35:18
Shane
And, like, think about, like, just the way we see them. We're like, man, they they serve people. their there're They're so generous. They're blah, blah, blah, blah. blah And so we we can't judge really the the heart of someone. so So I would lean towards, yeah, when you once you fully understand and know the the grace of God in your life, and you've you've that that has been something that you've comprehended
00:35:51
Shane
That, yeah, you're saved, you know, but but others would argue that you can it is you can fall away.
00:35:56
Danny Price
and
00:36:02
Shane
But then the argument is like, well, where, when, how do you know when someone has all that?
00:36:07
Danny Price
Yeah. Yeah. I think most people who argue for the ability to fall away would not say, at least from my understanding, would not say... that if you are struggling with a sin or like there's something that you can do in terms of like, as long as you're continuing to pursue the Lord, that you can not be saved. It's more as if like you're renouncing your faith.
00:36:29
Danny Price
At least that's the way that I've seen it and and understand it.
00:36:31
Shane
yeah
00:36:31
Danny Price
So just because I could see how it'd be so easy for someone who's, Hannah is a great, my wife is a great example. Just sometimes who's a little bit more feels guilty about things.
00:36:38
Shane
yeah
00:36:40
Danny Price
And it's just like, well, crap, I i messed up. I did that wrong thing. Does that mean I'm not saved now? It's like, no, no. You know, God's grace covers a multitude of sins. And um I want to be careful.
00:36:51
Danny Price
um i don't want to give credence to certain things like that because I think people would, you'll just live in manic depression and craziness for your whole life if you are that guilty about everything.
00:36:54
Shane
Yeah, no, absolutely. Hannah...
00:37:01
Shane
Yeah. It makes sense that Hannah was like that because her dad is so harsh.
00:37:05
Danny Price
Good grief. That's a good point.
00:37:07
Shane
um
00:37:08
Danny Price
You're so graceful, but some of that stuff, it's so funny that Hmm.
00:37:12
Shane
but um But, yeah, no, that's I'm really glad you clarified that because there's no way, it's not in any way based on what you, like, you know, you struggle with a sin too long or, or that kind of thing. i I've heard, and I do like this statement in many ways.
00:37:30
Shane
If, in fact, I had in my notes. i I don't think I said it there again because of time, but if, if it was possible for you to lose your salvation based on what you do, you would, you know,
00:37:35
Danny Price
and
00:37:40
Danny Price
Oh my gosh. Absolutely. Yes.
00:37:42
Shane
So, you know, like every we all would. So, you know, don't don't worry about that in that and when it comes to that philosophy.
00:37:54
Danny Price
No, that's, that's really good. um It does lead into the next question a little bit just about salvation um and our inheritance. So at the very end, he talks about, um and I'm to just going to read it directly.
Inheritance in Christ
00:38:08
Danny Price
I'm actually going to read 13 and 14. In him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, sorry, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.
00:38:10
Shane
No.
00:38:22
Danny Price
um what is that What is the inheritance? And why don't why don't we have possession of it yet? who Who gets to possess possess that? What does that mean?
00:38:33
Shane
Well, the the final inheritance is eternal life. um And why don't we have possession of it yet? Because we're still living in this earthly body.
00:38:43
Danny Price
Right.
00:38:43
Shane
um
00:38:44
Danny Price
But you but you're saved but you don't you're saved, but you don't have it yet because it's <unk> the end.
00:38:44
Shane
you know and Well, sort of.
00:38:52
Danny Price
Does that make sense? Kind
00:38:53
Shane
You just don't have the full inheritance. I would say you we have the and we have the inheritance. We just don't... the inheritance isn't paid in full yet. You know, um, we, we, yeah, yeah, it's, we, we know it's there.
00:39:02
Danny Price
kind of like the layaway, like you were saying.
00:39:07
Shane
We, we have it. We, we actually get, so kind of like the, okay, it doesn't work in my family because i don't have extra money to help you guys out with, but like, let's just say, let's just say I had an estate, ah like an actual estate, something of value, right?
00:39:22
Shane
That, um, Well, you would be you would be able to have access to that even though I'm not dead yet, right? Like if if you were in a place of need, I'd i'd help you out with it.
00:39:32
Danny Price
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
00:39:35
Shane
you know and if you if you guys are you know So you still have access to it. you just And you you have it. It's there. And you know your parents would – if it came down to it, it was make or break to save your life.
00:39:49
Shane
They'd give whatever to do it.
00:39:50
Danny Price
Sure.
00:39:51
Shane
So you'd have it. But you don't have the fullness of it available to you every day until eternity.
00:39:56
Danny Price
Because they're not dead yet
00:40:00
Danny Price
Got it.
00:40:01
Shane
And, you know, and that's kind of how i I look at that is, you know, we get the blessings of that inheritance still. We just not, we're not, it's not completely, it's not complete yet.
00:40:09
Danny Price
Right.
00:40:12
Danny Price
Which total off topic, but I did, I, I heard this, um, this last year i thought was cool with the prodigal son parable. That's, is that's what he does is he asked for his inheritance completely in, in, in full early, which is essentially saying that I want you to pretend like you're dead essentially, which is why that was so insulting and and people skip over that.
00:40:23
Shane
Yeah.
00:40:28
Shane
the
00:40:31
Danny Price
That was a side thing. That is not what, that has nothing to do with this, but just a cool little, rabbit trail again. so Okay. So that makes sense. So it's a, it's a, which is a very common phrase, the whole now and not yet type thing.
00:40:44
Danny Price
Um, we ha we have the guarantee of it now and we don't actually, we don't actually have true possession of it.
00:40:44
Shane
Yeah.
00:40:52
Shane
Yep.
00:40:52
Danny Price
Awesome. Um, is there anything else you said you had notes? That's the last of my questions. Um, just talking about the inheritance. Is there anything else from your notes that you didn't get a chance to get to that you'd love to just throw out there or even just like a final parting thought
00:41:03
Shane
No, that was the only thing. No, I mean, that was the only thing. I just, when I saw that question, i was like, oh, I actually had a little bit on my notes on that.
00:41:12
Danny Price
okay
00:41:13
Shane
i No, I mean, good stuff. I will say this, that as we go through this, um even this next week, it it's going to seem like, oh, he threw two sections together and preached on two
Ephesians as a Message of Unity
00:41:25
Shane
sections.
00:41:25
Shane
But man, what I really do, I kind of tried to hit on this, what love about Ephesians is really, there are there's really actually only two sections in Ephesians.
00:41:37
Shane
It's one through three. It's just kind of this big, long thought that Paul has that he's just kind of really digging into. It's not like, like when he writes Corinthians, he's like dealing with, you guys have a problem with this. Here's that. I'm to talk about it. You guys have a problem with this.
00:41:53
Shane
to talk about it. You have a problem with this. going to talk about it. Ephesians, he's just kind of like, he's just like, it's like one big sermon on you are one in Christ. We all are one together and we're working together. and And then, and then the last part of, and here's how it works and looks to, to live that way.
00:42:07
Danny Price
Mm-hmm.
00:42:12
Shane
And, you know, so as we're going through this, just know that um it really is a beautiful book of, of oneness.
00:42:13
Danny Price
Mm-hmm.
00:42:20
Shane
I, I really, i love this book. So.
00:42:23
Danny Price
No, it's great. Yeah, no, I was really excited that we were doing Ephesians. I did a study with some guys last year on Ephesians. We did like the precepts thing. We didn't do the full precepts. We did precepts light.
00:42:31
Shane
Okay.
00:42:33
Danny Price
We didn't circle every single word in the and the book, but it's great. I'm so excited for this. It's going to be good. um How many weeks is this again? Remind me.
00:42:43
Shane
It's eight going through Ephesians. It's going to be nine weeks long because we have a week where have a guest preacher, but it's going to be kind of cool because he's going to hit James where it talks about without works, what good is faith that works.
00:42:58
Shane
And it's, he's going to contrast it to how we see we're saved by grace alone.
00:42:58
Danny Price
and
00:43:04
Shane
and um And kind of deal with that, like, well, what does that mean?
00:43:05
Danny Price
Interesting.
00:43:08
Shane
Okay, if we're saved by grace, but but God calls us work, what's that look like?
00:43:11
Danny Price
Interesting.
00:43:13
Shane
So I'm kind of excited about that because it's going to, I think, kind of help people look think through that.
00:43:13
Danny Price
interesting
00:43:19
Danny Price
Cool. Love it. That's great. Awesome. we' ah We'll end the episode. um Yeah, hope you guys enjoy this. um Hope you guys are, if you're not attending Mountain View Fellowship, I'd really encourage you to listen to the sermons. It's going to help um this a lot lot of this make more sense.
00:43:35
Danny Price
And, you know, it's just great to Even if you can't make it on Sunday, man, just so easy nowadays just to, while you're on your commute to work, listen to the episode. um And I would say prioritize that over the podcast. Podcast is fun. I'd love that. But man, make sure you guys are getting fed throughout the week. So anyways, hope you're enjoying this. Please pass it on to your friends. And then I did i i did want to say this because we haven't had a lot of questions. um If you have my number personally, I'm not going to give it on the podcast just because I don't know who's listening to this.
00:44:03
Shane
yeah
00:44:05
Danny Price
But if you have my number, it's very easy to get my number if there's someone at the church who has it. um But if you want to text me questions um after this next sermon, um you know, on maybe Sunday night, I would love to throw some of those questions into the podcast. So open invitation to anybody. Don't feel like it's a dumb question.
00:44:22
Danny Price
it's someone that you're interested in, I'd love to talk about it. um I'm guessing, you know, for all, for the most part, I would say, yes, there might be a occasional question. I would say, sorry, we're not going talk about that, but anyways, so cool. Awesome.
00:44:34
Danny Price
We'll talk to you guys soon. Bye-bye.
00:44:36
Shane
Bye-bye.