Transcript
Danny Price: Hey everyone, welcome to episode 15 of the Table Talk Recap Podcast. We are still in our Ephesians series at MVF Church, and me and Shane are here. We're going to over the message. This message was not preached by Shane. This was preached by Scott McKinney, um who used to be, he was a founding pastor and used to be the lead pastor at Centerpoint Church down in Orem.
Danny Price: um He's, I think he's done what, one or two messages since we've started this podcast, I think, maybe maybe just one.
Shane: This is the second one since we started.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Okay. But yeah, but he's been coming up and helping out. He kind of oversees the EFC. What's what's his title? Is there a title that comes with that, Shane? He oversees some EFCA stuff.
Shane: Yeah, he's a, he's a, I can't remember exact title, but basically overseas all the churches. This kind of the spiritual wellbeing of all the churches, EFCA churches in um Utah and Southern Idaho. So he's kind of like, I would say a mentor to all the senior pastors is probably the best way to look at him
Danny Price: Got it. Yeah, that's cool. That's a really cool role to be in, especially since he's not actively pastoring anymore. but He's still really involved with ministry.
Danny Price: That's cool.
Shane: yeah and he yeah he really deserves it too because he's you know he did ministry here for i don't know 30 years now years
Danny Price: um
Danny Price: Yeah, he's one of the OGs from the Valley.
Shane: two years Yeah. So, you know, it's not like he's a guy that was only here for four or five years doing ministry or bounced around a bunch from church to church. And, you know, he, he definitely put his.
Danny Price: And remind me,
Danny Price: yeah I know he him and ah Paul Roby, who started South Mountain um Community Church, they're pretty close.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: And like who brought who out? I can't remember. what like They have a relationship from before.
Shane: Scott brought Paul out. scott Scott brought Paul out.
Danny Price: Scott brought Paul out.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: that's That's really cool.
Shane: I mean, invited him out.
Danny Price: So, I mean, yeah, right.
Shane: I don't know how that, you know, I mean, they were just friends or, yeah.
Danny Price: You should come out here. ah I've heard that story from one of them before.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: But it's cool that, I mean, he those are two of the bigger churches making a huge impact in community.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: greater Salt Lake City Valley. So that's kind of cool that they're friends and, and they both moved on to, to kind of like retired, retired phases.
Shane: Yep. For sure.
Danny Price: So anyways, um I thought the sermon was really good and it, it was a pause. So we're still teaching through Ephesians, but he was focusing more on some verses in James and a little bit on Ephesians. Is that right?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Like you had them like kind of,
Shane: So when he, when he knew what I was doing, you know, i didn't want to ask him to write. I like, I hate to ask guests to try to write something that fits it yeah because it's hours of work to do that. So, um, I send, you know, once he knew where we were going in Ephesians, he asked about this and I thought it was just a cool idea after preaching Ephesians two eight to 10 where, so you were saved, we're saved by grace.
Shane: to kind of talk about, well, how does works fit into that? Like when James talks about show me your, you know, basically faith of that works is dead.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: You know, what does he mean by that and how does that fit? And so I thought, yeah, that'd be a good place to, to do that. So I hope, I think I liked it.
Danny Price: No, I thought it was, it was a good fit.
Shane: I thought it, I thought it fit in well.
Danny Price: It did. It didn't seem, I know sometimes there's can be guest pastors where you come in halfway through the sermon and it's like about revelation or lamentations. and it's like all right, now we're to about giving or whatever.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: you're like, all right. um Anyways, any, any thoughts, anything that stood out from the message for you that you wanted to highlight or something that you had never heard explained that way or something that was new?
Shane: Oh, well, man, now that you say it that way, there was one thing that I can't even remember.
Danny Price: Sorry, that's a lot.
Shane: you that you asked that part, as far as that was, I'd never heard it explained that way. He did have one thing that he said that now is not hitting me. Um, that's not the way you worded the question, Danny.
Danny Price: It might come back.
Shane: So I, when I looked at the, you, you, you asked that the question, is there anything that stood out from the message?
Danny Price: It might come back.
Shane: Um, and, but, um, I, I more just, um,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, what I think what stood out and what I think I like about um Scott and his heart in general is just, you know, how he does a good job of how it relates to our culture and where we live and how you have the conversations about faith in living in an LDS world. Like he does that in a really good way that's not offensive, I feel like, and doesn't...
Danny Price: Totally.
Shane: um doesn't alienate people or if you have a a first time a attender who is LDS, you know, that kind of thing. It doesn't, you know, upset them. Yeah. So I just, I like the way he does that.
Danny Price: Yeah, he's bold without being off-putting. And...
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: hurtful, I guess.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Um, no, that's cool.
Danny Price: Alrighty. Um, some of these things i kind of jotted down and they're like multi question, multi-faceted questions. Um, and this one was specifically just on good works.
Danny Price: What exactly are quote unquote good works and get a, can a non-Christian do good works? Um, what What makes them good to begin with? Does that make sense?
Danny Price: Like, what why is it why is it good work good?
Shane: hu
Danny Price: Like, what makes it good? little bit confusing. I don't even honestly know the answer to that.
Shane: Yeah, I mean, I would say anything that is in line with what God calls us to um is is a good work.
Shane: um Any action. um So everything from helping... your neighbor to, um, uh, serving somewhere, um, to, you know, um, even, you know, forgiving, uh, you know, any, anything at all that is in line with what God calls us to do. And so, yeah, I think a non-Christian can do good works.
Shane: Those good works don't end up, you know, yeah ah this would go back to my illustration two weeks ago where, you know, someone offers you a ride to the moon and they're rocked.
Danny Price: hu
Shane: you know Your good works are like you saying, well, here, let me jump up in the air first. and you know like like it's not written that Those good works aren't going to save somebody, but a non-Christian can still do good works.
Danny Price: Right.
Danny Price: OK. What makes them? So like, I'm trying to figure out how to like follow up with this.
Danny Price: what makes it different when a Christian does it? Why is it important for a Christian to do good work? Because if it's just stuff that doesn't even matter, why, like, does that make sense? Is that where I'm kind of like push pushing it?
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. and Yeah. So, I mean, so it doesn't matter towards our salvation. Is that what you're kind of asking?
Danny Price: Well, like I get, yeah, I agree with that. And I, I'm, I'm kind of given that as, or taking that as a given, I guess what I'm saying is, is Is there anything that we, when we are a Christian, that when we do a good work, it like, it it doesn't, it doesn't count towards our salvation. Does it count towards anything else? Like, does it make any difference that we're a Christian that's doing good works besides, you know, the fact that we are a Christian that's already saved? Does that make sense?
Shane: Yeah. um So I would say, yeah, it it does. the The difference it makes is it it starts, it's where a fruit starts to be born and and show, right? I mean, because, you know, going back into what he was preaching out of of James chapter 2, yeah.
Shane: um you know, he says, verse 18, but someone will say, you have faith, I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Shane: you will um So, you know, he's he's saying that, well, actually, he goes, the part I was looking for is where he says, your faith that works is dead. um Oh, so also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Shane: So, you know, James is pretty clear that You can say you have faith, but if you don't have any fruit in your life that's that backing that up and showing it, then...
Shane: then he's basically challenging you he's basically challenging you to ask, are you really a believer? Are you really a follower of Christ?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So that it does that work in of itself and in that it it kind of gives you your own testimony. ah it It supports your testimony, I would say.
Danny Price: Yeah. Okay.
Shane: And you Scott kind of leaned into that a little bit. um And yeah so that that i mean that would be the number one thing. um And then as far as...
Shane: um What's the verse? There's a verse. I'm going type it the chat, GBT. um You know, that does talk about that we have reward in heaven.
Danny Price: Yeah, no, I want to say it's Hebrews, but I don't know if that's if that's right. The crowns of glory or something, but i don't know if that's accurate.
Shane: Yeah. So I can't remember it offhand. I'm typing it in. and um But, ah you know, so there's the Bible says that, you know, there's going to be.
Shane: you know rewards in heaven for for how we have lived our lives as as well. um
Danny Price: is it is it Is it telling you?
Shane: add and dada
Shane: And without faith as well.
Shane: Boy, I am not fine. I didn't type it in very well because I was trying to talk. um
Danny Price: No, that's fine. We could even like link it later if it's.
Shane: um Yeah, we might have to we might have to go back to that because I can't um find it real quick.
Danny Price: that's fine.
Shane: as but But, you know, at some level, we're...
Danny Price: We're going to be rewarded.
Shane: we I guess, you know, we want to have Jesus say, well done, good and faithful servant, right? i
Danny Price: sure.
Shane: We don't want Jesus to just go, well, thanks for, you know, thanks for nothing, you know.
Danny Price: Yeah, right.
Shane: and ah and i And, you know, he talks about he's going to separate the sheep and the goats and all that, you know. So, you know, they're they're i just I think it goes back to if you don't show some so level of works in your in your life, you're really going to question whether or not you're your salvation is is real.
Danny Price: Yeah. What I was pushing that too, I guess part of me is... sensitive to certain people that are not atheists, but I guess you could call, maybe, maybe it is atheism, but I've seen videos online and certain people pushing back on Christians who talk about like absolute morality and saying, well, if I'm doing something good, I'm not a Christian.
Danny Price: Doesn't that prove that I don't need God to do good things? And then they there's a kind of a rabbit trail that people will go down pretty much trying to get as far away from God as possible while still doing what you what do you say is, or quote unquote, good works or good things.
Shane: Oh, I get you.
Danny Price: And I think it can be a stumbling block if you're not really sure what the point is of doing.
Shane: Okay. I actually have, i have an answer to that.
Danny Price: Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.
Shane: the The answer is yes.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: You can do good things without knowing God. But then the question, then we have to ask the question is, how do you know those are good things?
Danny Price: Exactly. That's exactly where this goes.
Shane: So,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Yeah. So the question is, how do you know those are good things? And now the the average person is going to say, well, we know good things because it's just, and it's, it's, um ah it's built into us.
Shane: What's the word I'm looking for that, but there's, there's a moral code right within us.
Danny Price: and in a Yeah. Yeah.
Shane: Well, where did that moral code come from? Well, everybody, if everyone knows that murder is wrong. Okay. So what we're saying is moral code comes from what everyone believes because, know, you know If we're going to go with that, there's been times in history where everyone believes some pretty horrendous things.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: ah are we Are we saying it's what everyone believes? So you know so the Christian would argue that... Yeah, you're doing those good things because God wrote the moral code.
Shane: God wrote it in you.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um And and even when they're even when the whole world is going one direction, we still have this code in us that says, that's not right.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: I might even go along with it, but it's not right.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: I mean, a lot of kids and people have experienced...
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: you know While we most of us would never and hopefully never will have to experience you know deciding whether or not we're going to become Nazis because that's the ruling party, you know we most people can can relate to that experience of –
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: of sitting in the group while the group picks on ah kid when they're, you know, and knowing in the heart, it wasn't right.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: It's not right.
Shane: Like going home, feeling like a piece of crap because you didn't stand up and do something, you know?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, totally. But you didn't say anything. Mm-hmm.
Shane: So anyway, yeah, that I hear where you're going. Then that, yeah, that's a great talk.
Danny Price: Yeah, well, ah i' I'm just sensitive to people that are dealing with those tough questions.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: um
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: So the next question I had, which you kind of already alluded to a little bit, was
Danny Price: what would you tell someone who is really, who is saying they're a Christian, but really showing no good works in their life?
Shane: Thank you.
Danny Price: Would you give them a pretty stern warning? Or would you kind of let things go and be like, oh they're probably okay in their walk with the Lord. If they're showing no fruit and there's and there's no good works and they're not seemingly doing anything that that seems like they're living a Christian life, is that cause for concern?
Danny Price: Are they in danger?
Shane: Um, yeah, I would absolutely say they're in danger.
Danny Price: Yeah, okay.
Shane: Um, and I do have that talk with people sometimes. I mean, do I have it as much as I should? Probably not. Um, are there people I, I've known that I just kind of go, yeah, I don't know them well enough.
Danny Price: That's a weird ah weird place to be in.
Shane: I'm not going to get involved. Um, you know, um, if we numb ourselves to the conviction of the Holy spirit, um, eventually we have to ask ourselves if we're even attached to the vine.
Shane: You have Jesus, is the vine, and we are the branches. And really our only goal is to abide in him. Abiding in him is, is being in tune with him. It's being in one with him. And, you know, if we're ignoring every conviction to a point where we even like, I know people that would call themselves Christians that have no conviction on anything.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: Um, you know, and if that's the case, well, then eventually we have to ask ourselves if we're really saved and no one can answer that for someone, you know, besides himself, obviously, but, but man, you can, there's, there's some evidence that makes it, makes it easier to at least, you know, have an idea.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, no.
Shane: so
Danny Price: No, that's good that's good. I don't know if I've ever had that conversation with someone. It'd be really difficult for me to... And I don't know how to even approach that with someone if i was they were saying they were Christian, but I wasn't seeing things. Or I was seeing something like so blatant.
Danny Price: But just didn't know if...
Shane: So really, not even but not even with like someone who's a friend of yours you've never had that kind of...
Danny Price: Um...
Shane: like Maybe not flat out as at like bold as like, hey, man, I don't even know if you're a Christian, but have you I'm sure you've had...
Danny Price: i've i've questioned yeah I've questioned behaviors, or and I've had long and hard discussions over like moral things with people. like for example i mean um And again, some of this this stuff is not even like... What's what's the word? It's not even in practice. it's like It's like plausible things. like What about this? like What if like sex before marriage, is that really wrong? Or drinking to the point of drunkenness, is that really wrong? Because they partied in the Bible. so is that you just Stuff like that. I've had a lot of... like um moral arguments with people, but not even stuff that is being practiced. It's just stuff that's like people talk about. And I've called people out like, Hey, if you're doing this, that's probably a sign that there's something else going on in your heart.
Danny Price: But I don't know if I've ever had a conversation with someone that claims to be a Christian where I've said, no, I don't think you're in the kingdom or you're, you're walking, you're a wall right now. You're alone without a leader type of deal.
Danny Price: um that I don't know if I've done that. I don't i can't recall it to my memory if I have, which is, it'd be a hard.
Shane: Yeah, you're you're pretty fortunate. You're pretty fortunate. and then you're most I would say yeah all the friends I know of yours are are pretty walking in their faith.
Danny Price: Totally.
Shane: like Like you don't have any friends that totally claim to be Christ, but are Christ followers, but live with their boyfriends and girlfriends.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: No, I'm, no, I'm super blessed with that.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah. just yeah
Danny Price: Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I, I don't know. it's I'm glad you're bold about it. And like, you would say something and you're also a pastor. So it's a little bit of a different role too, but that's a difficult conversation to talk to someone, even if you're not coming at it from like a big black and white, but just, even if you come at it, just asking them questions like, Hey, what do you see with this?
Danny Price: Do you, you, you you're saying you're a Christian. What do and you're doing this? Like, what do you, what are you seeing?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: you see the incongruency here?
Shane: And I, yeah, and I definitely think that's the way to have the conversation. And, and I would say the people I've had that conversation with really has not very, nothing to do with me being a pastor.
Shane: It really is everything do with just, I have that kind of relationship.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: They're just at ah that level of relationship that, That I, I would have, and that's the way you just said it is how I'd have it. I wouldn't just flat out come and go, Hey man, you're not walking with the Lord.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: I don't care what you think.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, I, but I would just go, Hey man, I see this and I'm just really struggling with how this works. And I want to, wanted to talk to you about it, you know?
Danny Price: Yeah. No, that's a good way to approach it. That's a lot gentler. Yeah. Cool. That's a really good answer that question. It's a difficult question. um Next question I have, and it's a little bit of a so of a little rabbit trail based off a sermon I listened to and the past couple weeks, but it got me going on some stuff.
Danny Price: Why do we opt for a boring Christian moral walk with the Lord where we just kind of like... need to fall in line with like the modern church rather than being offensively evangelistic and like living out our faith.
Danny Price: um I think a lot of, and to follow up, I guess, to clarify little bit more, I think a lot of people think the Christian walk is just saying no to a lot of the fun stuff in life. i got I can't drink a lot anymore like I used to. I can't do drugs. I can't sleep around. like All that stuff was so fun. Okay, okay I'll get myself in line. I'll grow up. I'll be a Christian. i i fall in line. I do all the right moral things. And I'm just, okay, yeah, the the preaching's okay at this church. The worship's okay. Okay, I'll go to the church. Fine. And then you just like live in this boring, moral, like...
Danny Price: boring moral like um subordination for the rest of your life, going to church, thinking that you're doing this really good work and you're not really ever on fire for the Lord. And like offensively, like, I can't wait to tell people about Jesus because he changed my, you know what i mean?
Danny Price: Do you see the difference?
Shane: and
Danny Price: Like, why, why do we do that?
Shane: Oh, yeah, totally.
Danny Price: Why do we so easily fall into that? Like, all right, just go to sleep. Just be, be a nice little boy, a nice little girl, whatever, you know, just relax, take a deep breath, go to church once a week, be boring.
Danny Price: And we never were actually like living out for our faith.
Shane: There's some theories on that. I don't know the decades, but um and want to say it was like the 30s or 40s that they started trying to... they started selling more moralistic Christianity um to be, to combat just the debauchery of culture rather than talking about walking with Jesus. They talked about,
Shane: not doing all those things you just mentioned. Right.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Like, like Scott even talked about them when he was growing up, right. You don't smoke, you don't drink, you don't do drugs and you don't dance.
Danny Price: Dance.
Shane: Right.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, and there was this huge, like we're, we'll just, we'll ingrain that in people. And because even if they're not following Jesus, if they, if everyone would live that way, the world would be better.
Shane: I put my phone on, not do not disturb. It's still ring. Um, it's It's possessed by a demon.
Danny Price: i don't i didn't hear and it I didn't hear it, so you're fine.
Shane: Oh, I have it set where if someone in the family calls, it still works. So anyway, um so anyway, um so there I believe that there is an element of that.
Danny Price: Oh, cool.
Shane: I think the church failed at some level and that we sold this.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: It's about being moral more than it is about having a ah walk with Christ.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um and But then on top of that, Like, you know, it's so funny. I used to be a youth pastor and I used to talk all the time about it. Like, it just drove me nuts because I had parents that really just wanted me to teach their kids to be safe, not to be.
Shane: They didn't really care if I taught their kids to be Christians. They just wanted me to teach their kids to be safe. And, you know, and that include included like not wanting their kids to go on mission trips and not wanting their kids to do things that were kind of dangerous in their faith, but would yell.
Danny Price: so't Don't do drugs. Be nice.
Danny Price: oh really?
Shane: Yeah, oh I had all sorts of parents and youth as youth pastor that would be like, well, it's dangerous.
Danny Price: oh really oh wow. Okay. Oh, geez.
Shane: And it's well, I'm like, yeah, it's a little dangerous. Your kid could use a little danger. You know, your your kid is way too pampered.
Danny Price: Oh, geez.
Shane: Let's let's let's put this kid in a little danger because quite frankly, your kids are narcissistic kind of a jerk. So let's see if we can change that.
Danny Price: I'm sure that went over well. Trying to tell them all that.
Shane: yeah I didn't say those words.
Danny Price: Oh gosh.
Shane: I thought those words many times.
Danny Price: But it didn't come out. Oh gosh.
Shane: um I said it in a little nicer way, but I.
Danny Price: oh
Shane: Yeah, so, I mean, yeah, we definitely have kind of kind of bought into that that idea. um and yeah, I think in a lot of ways, we there again, we mix Christianity with the American dream.
Shane: And the American dream is I can kind of live my life, my little boring life, and live in my little boring house and, you know, do my little boring things and everyone leave me alone.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: and and And that's... That's kind of the American way of life, right? But that's not necessarily what Christ calls us to at all.
Danny Price: Totally.
Shane: And so it's it's and we we we confuse the two, I think, a lot.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. I think it's Screwtape Letters. He's writing, um if you guys haven't read that, Screwtape Letters is C.S. Lewis. He writes a book. I got to give a little background, I guess, if you haven't heard of it. um It's a really weird book. It's kind of like an allegorical thing. It's not reality, but it's um C.S. Lewis's perspective, if a elder demon were was discipling a younger demon on how to properly tempt the person that he's been given to tempt.
Danny Price: So it's this older, wise demon that's like telling this young demon, Wormtail, hey, if you want to really screw with this guy, this is what you do. And he tells him all these things. But I remember he's talking, and I can't remember the quote, and I wish I had it in front of me, but he's basically trying to say, one of the best things we can do is to just...
Danny Price: lullaby him into subordination and just thinking that we're not there being living this life of just complete, just like moral relativism where you just go to sleep and you don't, you're not impactful at all.
Danny Price: Like you're not awake to anything.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: You're not excited for the gospel. You're not on fire for the Lord. You're just, I'm going do the good things. I'll go to church once in a while. Cause I want to be a good person. And I just never actually make an impact. Like it's such a dangerous place to be in. um And I remember, I can't remember which exact lesson because like the book split up into all these lessons that that is, but have to go link that down in the description so you guys can go check it out.
Danny Price: But um really interesting.
Shane: Yep. And it's a short read. Everyone should read it.
Danny Price: Yeah, it is a short read. It's a little weird to read. It's like reverse psychology. It's like you're reading things you're not supposed to do, but it's really insightful. At least it was for me of things that I i do, whether or not I'm being tempted by a demon or not.
Shane: Bye.
Danny Price: It's just something that I'm, as a sinful being, fall into. It was really interesting. So it's good book.
Shane: Here's here's one of the one of the quotes from there is, a moderated religion is as good for us as no religion at all and more amusing.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: So that's the screw tape talking to the demon Wormwood.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And he's saying, hey, if you can teach the guy to have a moderated religion, it's as good as giving ah him having no religion at all. And it's more amusing for us because we watch him pretend to be a Christian.
Shane: That's what he's saying.
Danny Price: Exactly. That's, yeah, that's exactly the train of thought. So, oh, rough stuff.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: um So then moving on to the next question, just for the sake of time. um And this is something that I've not, i'm not struggling with, but I'm just like reading through this again. It brings up stuff in me.
Danny Price: Why does it seem that James is saying that we are justified by our works when, we really, as Christians, you know, kind of, kind of even what Scott McKinney said, it was Jesus plus nothing equals the gospel.
Danny Price: um And we're saved by grace alone. Why does it seem like he's pointing and giving so much credence to good works, especially in that chat? think it's chapter four, especially in that chapter.
Shane: Yeah, it's it's hard because he definitely uses the word justified. um and I honestly would have to do a word study. I did not do that. I should have done that.
Shane: um To see if the word he uses here, justified, is the same word we talk about when we talk about salvation, being justified before God for salvation.
Danny Price: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Shane: um yeah Because it definitely could be a little bit different. But... um
Shane: ah
Shane: I look at this the way the way I've seen this passage is he's saying, like, let's go back to Abraham. Right. And he says, um was not God was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar.
Shane: You see that faith was active along with his works and faith was completed by his works. ah So I'll take that back to what I said Paul was saying two weeks ago when Paul was saying, it's not this just that you trust that you have a car.
Danny Price: Yep.
Shane: It's not even just that you trust that your car can get you there. you're You're trusting that your car is all you have. Remember when was talking about that? with So what Paul is saying is like you're not just trusting that Jesus was there as a real person.
Danny Price: yep you
Shane: They died on the cross. you're all you're you're you're putting your trust in him you're putting your faith in him but you're not even just saying oh you know i uh you know i put you know i kind of hope he works you're you're you're saying all i have to lean on is jesus that's the kind of that's what faith is meant to be and and so when he's saying abraham is justified by that he's saying look he showed that he really does mean that but by by doing that by offering isaac up he was he was showing look look
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: you gave me this promise. And if you brought the way, I trust you're going make a way and um'm I'm going to do whatever you call me to do, because that's what faith is.
Danny Price: here
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: My faith is, is truly stepping into saying, I will listen to God. I will do what God calls me to do. And that, and you know, And it's so hard for us because we get this idea since we're saved by grace alone, that that means, well, then all I got to do is say a prayer.
Shane: All got to do is say a thing and, ah and mark the right boxes that I believe the right things.
Danny Price: hey
Shane: And,
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But the Bible over and over again, even though it says we're saved by grace alone, very clearly says you're now that you are saved, there should be evidence in your life. There should be these things coming out in your life showing that your life has been changed in a way that is radically different.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. Hmm. That's a good answer. It's it something that's like plagued my thoughts for the past like day or two since I've been coming up with these questions. I've been thinking about it. because i so i went and then By the way, I was wrong. It's James chapter 2. Shane was talking about the end of that chapter with Abraham and Isaac.
Danny Price: um That was verse 21 in chapter 2. It's hard because I think, and I think also from people that are from like an LDS background or from a really legalistic background, to hear some of this stuff, I don't want to, I hate using the word triggering, but I think it's one of those things that can be triggering where you hear you've got to do stuff and it takes you right back to where, you know, wherever that unhealthy place was where your salvation is completely based on your works or your value as a person was completely based on your works.
Danny Price: And I'm not trying to promote that at all, but it's just interesting because I've never actually taken a really close look at that passage and really thought about what that means. Because with justified specifically, correct me if I'm wrong, the way that I see justified at is, and again, this depends on how you view salvation.
Danny Price: So i'm going to work through this really clumsily, but Shane, correct me if I'm wrong with with how I describe this. When I think of justified, I think of you by sinning have earned a penalty.
Shane: Thank you.
Danny Price: The wages of sin is death. You're going to die. And you're, you're standing before the judge, you know, God in this example. And He looks at you and he says, the wages of sin is death. You deserve to die. what do you have to say for yourself? And you say, i i have nothing. I claim the blood of the lamb.
Danny Price: And Jesus stands in the front of you and says, this one's mine. And God looks at you, but he sees the son. And he says, now, okay, you're justified before me and you no longer have to serve your penalty.
Danny Price: Is that roughly what you would agree with along the lines of like salvation?
Shane: yeah that's Yeah, that's a great that's a great picture.
Danny Price: Um, so with me, I'm like, well, then what, where does works fit into that? Cause I didn't do anything like, yeah, sure. I do works because I am saved because I love the Lord. But how does that, like, I don't know, to me like that, it's a little bit of a, of a hurdle to get over in my mind. And I, the answer you had was really good.
Danny Price: And that that gets me a lot of the way there, but it still is something that I churn with a little bit. Does that make sense?
Shane: Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. Yeah, I think it just really comes down to us getting that it it really is...
Shane: the The works are are something that that show that you do that you do claim Christ.
Shane: Like that without... without I don't know um got how to say that. um That without claim, without a life change, you you really haven't.
Shane: Because like what what does it say in the Bible? to Like when when people are asked, what should we do to be saved? Over and over again, you see repent, right?
Danny Price: Yeah. Repent and believe. Yeah.
Shane: Repentance is a part of that. So repent means I quit living my life my way
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: And that, so if that's true, then that means you're going to live your life in such a way the that it's, that it's showing.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: Does that make sense?
Danny Price: No, it totally makes sense. That's a good way to put that. It's like this weird dichotomy of this the works you do do not save you, but they prove that you have been saved in a weird way.
Shane: Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Price: So, interesting. Hmm. Yeah, we can move on. i don't I don't want to dwell on this. I'm going to just turn my mind into a scramble trying to explain this in different ways. But that's a that's a tough question.
Danny Price: That's really good. um You already talked about a little bit really quick here about the whole Abraham and Isaac thing. I'm curious in your thoughts about this because this question has always bugged me or this the story, I guess, in the Bible has always bugged me of Abraham going to sacrifice Isaac.
Danny Price: What are your thoughts on that? Is that something that, I mean, obviously it happened and it's, you know, it's good because God did it, but I've always had a hard time with that internally of God asking Abraham to do something. And just like Scott McKinney said, like that's what the neighboring religions were doing with their kids as they were sacrificing them to Molech and to Baal.
Danny Price: Um, Should Abraham have said no? I'm um i'm on not saying he actually should This is more of like a rhetorical, just like thought-provoking thing. But he should should he have told God, no, I'm not going to do that because that's not right, and you told you know and life is precious?
Danny Price: Or is he just like, okay, I'm in because God said it. It must be good. Was that just him being that that faithful?
Shane: Well, I don't think i don't think we could... Obviously, you're simplifying for the the question, but ah in um
Shane: this had to be an agonizing thing for Abraham. um And i actually saw a guy do a drama one time. It was it was really cool. he did It was a one-man drama where he...
Shane: portrayed Abraham on the, on the hike, um, with Isaac, he and Isaac doing the hike to, to sacrifice Isaac.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: And, um, he did a great job of just showing this agonizing step of faith that, that Abraham would have been taking. And, um, and yet, um,
Shane: you know Should he have done it? Absolutely, absolutely he he should have done it. He he needed to follow what God called him to do. It was an extreme act of obedience.
Shane: Isaac was the um the sign of the promise for him, the sign of the promise from God.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um So in a lot of ways, it wasn't even just like a normal act of, of sacrifice. It would have been a, do you trust the sign? Like, do you trust what the blessing or do you trust me?
Shane: You know, and we struggled that all the time, right? We put our trust in the blessings of God rather than trusting God. Um, and so it it was definitely a big, big thing for him to do that.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: Um, I, I will say all this though. I have, I wrestled with this one so much. I probably spent a, a several month period really struggling with this one. Um,
Shane: and going down rabbit holes of the way ah um an atheist would see this, the way someone who um was antagonistic towards the things of God would see it.
Shane: um you know and you know i mean Definitely, it makes God seem like, if you're just looking at it from... face value, it makes God seem like, like demonic himself, right, I mean, we, you know, like, what kind of horrible God would do this, um but it is that trusting that God has a way in it, now, also, we have to get, this is a different society, man, like you said, I mean, people are sacrificing kids
Danny Price: Totally.
Danny Price: totally
Shane: all the time. So even Abraham having a view of doing this would have been different than the way we would do it. Like Abraham might be kind of like, okay, well, I worship this God. Remember, this is the first interaction God has had with, with a human you know, at this level, really, like, even even Noah, you know, outside the Garden Eden, this is the first interaction we see God having with with a human at this level that he has with Abraham.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Shane: And so he's had these deep interactions with them. They've they've established this covenant. They've done these things. And... And, you know, I'm trying to put myself in Abraham's shoes was like, well, all these other gods require this, I guess, maybe.
Shane: yeah So he he his his view of God and his view of life, his view of family, his view of the kids would have been totally different than within ours is and right now.
Danny Price: All right.
Shane: So he's doing it from that perspective. But... And then it he we see that God you know god comes through. god trust God isn't like all the other gods. he you know But at the same time, God's setting it up to set the example for what kind of God he actually is.
Shane: He's not the God who's going to require you to give your son.
Danny Price: right
Shane: He's the God who's going to give his own son for you.
Danny Price: own son
Shane: And so it's a tough one. It is a, in our, in our culture where I actually think we struggle with child worship, man, this is, this is a tough, tough one, you know?
Shane: And I know as a dad, you picture your little three-year-old Sam, you know, mean, it's like, it's like, i don't think I'd have that faith, you know?
Danny Price: oh totally i know yeah yeah i'm like good grief
Shane: um But it is a different, I do, and I'm not discounting what Abraham did. But we are coming at it from a completely different culture than Abraham was.
Danny Price: Totally. Okay. Yeah, um that's cool. I'm glad that, see, that it's not just me that struggles with that and has wrestled with that thought.
Shane: I know, man.
Danny Price: it just and It's tough.
Shane: Go online sometime and and dig into the the and well read some of the comments of people's wrestling with this one.
Danny Price: Oh, geez. Oh, I bet. Oh, I bet.
Shane: It's a big one.
Danny Price: ah All right. Last question I have.
Danny Price: Do you, in the church and in the Christian community, do you tend to see people struggling more with not doing good works and not really living out their faith? Or do you see people struggling more with legalism?
Danny Price: And like this, that like kind of what I was describing before, but that like moral, like morality is everything. Being, being a Christian is really just means living a boring, good, to you know, good, well-to-do life. Or do you see people struggling more with not doing good works and they need to be more active in their faith?
Danny Price: What like, and then, per and I guess personally, where do you land? Where do you think that you like personally struggle with that?
Shane: Um, I would say the average person that I come and come to with struggles more with, they, they need to get, they need to realize that, yeah, they're saved by grace, but get your butt off, you get off your butt and go do something.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: I mean, we have a lot of people that are, you know Just in general, in our culture, who um i mean we live pretty selfish lives, man. i mean we
Danny Price: sure
Shane: it you know and The more money you have, the more the easier it is to live selfishly and to to pamper yourself. i mean There are a lot of people that think they are just sacrificing doing things for other people if they serve others two to three hours a month.
Shane: You know, and that's I think that's just barely touching the tip of the iceberg of what we should be doing. So so that's my first.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, I definitely that way. However, once people do start really growing in their faith and not just serving, I'm not talking about serving, but like really growing in their knowledge of God and their faith of like a depth of doctrine and all that, it's start it's easy for people to start becoming a little legalistic to.
Shane: um
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: You know, um and unfortunately, maybe not even serving as that much, but ah like doing works, but just becoming little legalistic about how we see things. So,
Shane: It's a struggle on both sides. I think as humans walking the line of what God calls us to, obviously if it was easy, we wouldn't need Jesus.
Danny Price: Yeah, right.
Shane: So we're always struggling with it.
Danny Price: oh
Shane: um But then i will, you know, for me personally, I probably lean more towards a selfish, ah to get off my butt more.
Shane: um ah You know, but, but I can be legalistic too.
Danny Price: And I don't know if that's a perfect pit, like, pitting those against each other. Like, I don't know if that's a perfect dichotomy or whatever you would call that.
Shane: No.
Danny Price: But, like, ah they're, like, not but complete opposing source forces.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Good grief. I can't talk.
Shane: Yeah. I think there are people.
Danny Price: They're not completely perfect set up.
Shane: yeah Cause there are also, there's also the aspect of people that aren't legalistic, but they just need to learn to rest. You know, it's a whole Mary Mar Mary Martha thing, you know, you know, they, they need to just sit at the feet of Jesus and, and be a disciple and, and not just constantly feel like they've got to earn stuff with their works.
Danny Price: Exactly. exactly. Exactly.
Danny Price: Yeah. um
Shane: So.
Danny Price: That's really good. um Yeah, I felt bad putting those against each other. I think those are two big camps, but they're not necessarily like the only two sides to...
Shane: Yeah, they're not. Yeah, you're right.
Danny Price: It's not a two-party system with that kind of stuff. Anyways.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Well, good. This was a good conversation. It's fun talking about this stuff. um and It was a good break, I guess. It's still have having to do with Ephesians with some things, but...
Shane: Yeah, at some level.
Danny Price: ah
Danny Price: So, anyways.
Shane: Yeah. And I will say ah this about next week.
Danny Price: And next...
Shane: I, I'm, it's funny cause I, I, I've preached through Ephesians like 10 years ago. So I'm kind of revisiting a lot of my notes when i'm I'm preaching, but each week I've had to kind of rewrite a little bit.
Danny Price: ah hu
Shane: And because, because I've grown, which is actually a cool thing. It shows like, Oh no, I've grown. Like I see this in a deeper way than I saw it. Then this week with the, um, chapter two, verse 11 23 or 22, whatever it is.
Danny Price: ah huh
Shane: um I'm like, I'm rewriting the whole thing.
Danny Price: That's cool.
Shane: i I took it at a totally different, and I'm really excited about it's it because it really kind of like, I'm like, oh, I i see this on a way, much deeper level than I was seeing it before.
Danny Price: That's really cool.
Shane: So I'm kind of excited to talk about it.
Danny Price: That's really cool.
Danny Price: That's exciting. And I mean, not like I make, how do I, how do make this sound? Not bad. I'm not excited that you're changing your thoughts as a pastor, but it's exciting that you're not someone that's just like stuck in your old ways.
Danny Price: And this is how I've always seen it. This is the only way to see it. Like, ah like, that's really cool that you're not, that you're like willing to work and change, but not change it to like,
Shane: Yeah, I see what you're saying.
Danny Price: wherever Wherever the wind blows you, you just, he just yeah, exactly.
Shane: Not being flighty. Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to say that. No, I'm not saying that you just...
Shane: Yeah, no, and it really, it definitely is through through more in-depth study. I, you know, I have studied more and and the more I've studied, the more I'm like, ah, there's there's a a whole different meaning to this than I, I was taking like a very surface level meaning of the passage 10 years ago.
Danny Price: Cool.
Danny Price: Cool.
Danny Price: That's cool. The beauty of the Bible too is the way that it's alive like that.
Shane: So, yeah. Nope. So true.
Danny Price: Awesome. Cool. Awesome. Hope everyone's appreciating this.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: A little bit of a longer episode, I guess, 42 minutes. But yeah, every time, every time.
Shane: We're going to, it's going one of those podcasts that starts off at 25 minutes.
Danny Price: I even had less questions.
Shane: And like, you you ever see those like two years down the road, you're like, dude, dude they used to be 40 minutes, another an hour and 45.
Danny Price: We'll be Joe Rogan. Yeah.
Danny Price: Three hours. Yeah, I know.
Shane: I'm just kidding. They won't be.
Danny Price: No, they won't be.
Shane: We both know we're not that interesting.
Danny Price: Anyways. No, no, we're just, we're already talking too much as it is. So awesome.
Shane: so
Danny Price: um Again, send us questions. We'll throw those questions um here in the podcast. Probably by like Sunday evening would be best or Monday morning. And I'll try to get them in.
Danny Price: Appreciate you guys listening. Thanks for giving us support.
Shane: Yeah, send questions in. It'll be more fun.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah. yeah It's so so much fun when people send in questions. It's it's interesting.
Shane: Did David send you any questions this week?
Danny Price: Even... He said he was going to, but he actually didn't. He said he mentioned something about it yesterday, but I never got anything.
Shane: Oh, man. Yeah, I thought he was going to.
Danny Price: He probably forgot. That's the thing is like, set if you're on your phone, set a reminder and say, remember to sending questions, even like during the sermon.
Shane: All right.
Shane: Yeah, or just text it to us then if you think. Oh, well, yeah, I guess because you're waiting for the sermon.
Danny Price: Oh, yeah.
Shane: and So, all right.
Danny Price: Yeah, but I mean, even if you're in church listening to the sermon, just like write it down or send it because we love.
Shane: Yeah. Most of you listening probably have one of our phone numbers.
Danny Price: Oh, I'm sure that I'm sure you guys do or a way to get a hold of us.
Shane: Or you can send it in a message to the church number and the church number is literally on the bulletin that you're holding.
Danny Price: Yes, exactly. And my email is living on this podcast. It's linked in the description. So you could, you can get creative. We're giving you many ways to succeed guys. ah But yeah, please pass this podcast on.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: you guys are enjoying it, we want to make sure people are listening to this and that it's, it's useful and beneficial for everyone. So awesome. We'll round it round out the episode. Thank you everyone. Bye-bye.
Shane: Yep. Thanks. Bye.
