Transcript
Danny Price: Alright everyone, hey, welcome to episode 16 of the Table Talk Recap Podcast. We're recording this later on Wednesday. ah was sick, still am sick, um so just kind of missed our normal slot.
Danny Price: But yeah, we're still in Ephesians. I have Shane with me, and we're just going to go over the sermon. um If you didn't get a chance to listen to it, again, you can listen to it on the Mountain View Fellowship, either the YouTube channel, you can actually like watch the live stream, or you can listen to it on the ah I don't like a podcast form.
Danny Price: It's on Apple podcasts and all the, all the channels. um Jane, is there anything that you want to, maybe if you could just like briefly summarize the sermon, it was on one temple, just like really quick, go over what you were trying to convey, I guess.
Shane: Yeah. um Yeah. So it was basically Ephesians 2, 11 through 20, 21, 22, actually. um And um yeah, just trying to get across that. i what you know What Paul is hitting on is this this huge divide that was between the Jews and the Gentiles and um that in Christ now that they are one and that they're literally being joined together you know, into the, to, to become the temple that, that of God. And, you know, that we are together worshipers of God. So therefore we're now the temple, there's no dividing wall.
Shane: um And the word pictures he was using there would have been just such one, a revelation, but also just really like,
Shane: politically incorrect you know um for for them and um just the not just generations but centuries of divide that they had and so um he's really saying some stuff that would have been kind of mind-bogglingly frustrating to some people as they if they didn't if they weren't in christ and they weren't really pursuing christ and that knowledge of
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah. yeah
Shane: you know, forgiveness and grace and and all the things that the spirit brings. So um it was just, you know, kind of a power. If you really can put yourself, try to put yourself there in the first century person, extremely powerful words he's using here.
Shane: And so, yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. Hmm.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: That's good. um The first question I had was kind of just to talk about the temple more. um Can you maybe explain the importance of the temple, especially like in Old Testament context, and then maybe talk a little bit about what the temple would have been used for in the context of Ephesians? Like if you were a Jewish, even maybe a non-Jewish person, but if you were especially were a Jewish person in that time,
Danny Price: ah what What is a temple being used for? Why is it so revolutionary that he's talking about it being like a body of believers and not a structure like a building?
Shane: Okay, yeah. um
Danny Price: There's three parts to that question. Sorry, it's a lot.
Shane: Yeah, so I'm to start answering it and then kind of keep track if I get through it all, I guess.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, yeah, right.
Shane: you know um So the importance of the temple is that it was the center of everything Judaism. um is you know So everything took place around the temple. Even the marketplace was like like right outside the temple.
Shane: um It was this this center of all that they they did, really. um And yet, most importantly, it was the the center of worship because God's presence literally dwelt in what was called the Holy of Holies.
Shane: And, um and no one was allowed in that spot except for the high priest once a year um to atone for the sins of his people, um of God's people, not the priest people, but you know, of God's people.
Danny Price: Yeah. yeah
Shane: So this was this, extremely holy place. And it really set the Jews apart from all these other peoples who, um, in many, most of them worship multiple gods and idols. Most of the, the Gentile, the Roman world around them, they didn't just worship one God. Um, and so the Jews were very set apart in that.
Shane: And, um, you know, so there was this kind of like mindset among the Jews of, were very different than the rest of you because of this.
Shane: um And they were, you know, they were God's holy people. So, um you know, even though they were sinners, it wasn't them that made themselves holy, it was God. And um so that's kind of the importance of it. um
Danny Price: right
Shane: And, ah you know, as far as when you you, okay, you're saying, so how did the idea of the temple get started? And so when you mean, how did the idea the temple get template started, you mean like, why did they build it?
Danny Price: Well, I mean, i don't know how far back you want to go into the Old Testament, but... I mean, you kind of touched on that, but the temple was originally built. ah there is It's been built and destroyed by this point, what, twice, once?
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: it was Solomon built it after after David had built it. Or no, David never got to build it.
Shane: No, David never built it.
Danny Price: That's right.
Shane: Solomon was the first temple.
Danny Price: David never built it. Solomon built it, and then it was destroyed.
Shane: Yeah. And they're on their second temple. they They've only, there was two.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Okay. And I did look up the temple, roman the Roman Empire did not destroy the temple until like 70 AD. And Paul writes Ephesians in like 60 something AD.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: So it had not been destroyed yet. So they're still thinking this is like, this is it. um But yeah, and then Ephesians, so in the Ephesus context, obviously the temple is not there, but I'm guessing the Jewish people know about it that are in Ephesus and it's like, I'm still a big deal to them.
Shane: Oh, yeah. Yeah, if you were a jew youre if you were a Jew, you were very much aware of the temple.
Danny Price: So, so
Shane: And many of them would make um the pilgrimage home at least once a year, oftentimes, you know, depending on wealth and um ah availability, up to three times a year.
Danny Price: Oh, right. I wasn't asked about that. Okay.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Is that a thing still that we're Jewish people are kind of at least once in a life or at some point in their life supposed to go see the temple or the temple mount, I guess.
Shane: the The goal is, I mean, it's it's just the wall at this point, but, um you know, the the dome is there now.
Danny Price: It's not there. Yeah.
Shane: the um like I can't remember what the Muslims, the mosque, but that one specifically, they, you know, because they they claim that as their holy land, that they're there.
Danny Price: The mosque. Yeah.
Danny Price: right Okay.
Shane: So, yeah. um So anyway, um yeah, the goal, if I'm not mistaken, from what I've heard and talked to Jews is that they at least are supposed to make one pilgrimage now since they can.
Shane: Kind of that, almost like it's dishonorable if you are if you can do it and you're not doing it once. Like the they've been through so much to have it and you're not taking the time to do it.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah, that makes sense.
Shane: So, but yeah, they would, they would go one to three times a year. i mean, like even like a lower middle-class Jewish person would, would really do everything they could to get there.
Danny Price: Interesting.
Shane: Um, you know, so, um,
Danny Price: Interesting. So what does that mean? Why is it so weird? I mean, i I mean, it's kind of obvious and maybe a little redundant to talk about it, but why is it so weird for Paul to start talking about people as a temple?
Danny Price: I mean, it totally just demolishes the whole idea of a building. Why is that so revolutionary?
Shane: Yeah, because, you know, for the Jewish people, God's presence dwelt within that temple. God didn't dwell among people, you know. um And so now he's he's basically saying everything you knew and understood is no longer needed.
Shane: um And so, you know, kind of even as much as I'm just, you know, try to put myself as a first century Jewish believer, right? Right. even as much as I believed in Christ, man, to let go of that kind of identity, you know, would be, would be a really tough thing.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And so, so I'm sure many of them wrestled with that at a, at a level that would be almost impossible for us to really understand as far as the Jewish people.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: But then as far as the Gentiles too, to, to just kind of be like, okay, so this is you know, okay for me to be, to think of myself this way.
Shane: Like, you know, I don't know. i'd I would have loved to have in the room with Jewish and Gentile believers having ah discussions about these things.
Danny Price: yeah
Danny Price: oh my gosh yeah well yeah no that that's that's crazy i just thought of something is a side question is what is the thought behind jewish people praying in like everyday life not at the temple Because if God's presence dwells in the temple, and they don't really, they're not believing about, there's nothing about the Holy Spirit with them, right? Because it's just God.
Danny Price: So how does that work? I mean, obviously like there's, you see different people praying, like talking to God throughout the whole Old Testament.
Shane: and Yeah.
Danny Price: How does, I don't, I don't quite get to get that part.
Shane: and I mean, a Jewish person would have to answer that fully, but I mean, just the quick answer is that they'd still believe that God is omnipresent.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: um You know, so the that he still is, he's overall, his you know, he's like Old Testament still very clearly talks about he's over,
Shane: all things he's, you know, everywhere, everywhere.
Danny Price: Yeah, right.
Shane: So, so whether they might not name the Holy spirit, um but even then the Bible, very old Testament, very much oftentimes talks about your spirit. um
Danny Price: True, true.
Shane: So they might, they might not think of the Holy spirit as I, so I, that's an actually really interesting question. I want to talk, ask a Jewish person, like ah when you talk about God's spirit, what are you talking about?
Danny Price: Yeah, right.
Shane: You know? So I, I really don't know the answer to that.
Danny Price: Because it's not as personal. You wouldn't think it's as personal. Because it's not like the Holy Spirit like dwells in...
Shane: No, i don't I doubt it.
Danny Price: Yeah, interesting. Huh.
Shane: Yeah, that's that's like that's I've never thought about that.
Danny Price: Interesting. um Kind of in that same thread, the next question. um There's two places I found in the New Testament, both in 1 Corinthians. It's 1 Corinthians 3, 16, and 17. And then Corinthians and the believer...
Danny Price: it talks about that the believer I'm going to pull it up. I'm going to read it, both of them, really quick. ah So 3, 16 and 17 is, Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him, for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.
Danny Price: So that's 1 Corinthians 3, 16 and 17. And then, 6, 19 and 20 is, or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy spirit within you for whom you have from God, you are not your own for you are bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Danny Price: Um,
Danny Price: In Ephesians, it talks about that the believers, like the church, the group of believers is like the temple. But then here it's like saying you're the temple, like individually, like your body is the temple. what's How is that possible?
Danny Price: Because i was the first time you mentioned that, I was like, wait, that doesn't sound right because I know that like the your body is a temple.
Shane: Yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: so And it's obviously a very commonly used phrase, like my body is a temple, so I'm not going to do tattoos or whatever.
Shane: yeah yeah
Danny Price: But yeah, we can get it we'll get into that in another time.
Shane: yeah That's another topic.
Danny Price: But
Shane: Yeah. um I would say it's both and, or the the quick answer is it's both and, but I would, I would say this, that, um you know, first Corinthians, if you read that context, he's talking about, he's talking about the individual behavior of believers, um protecting your body, watching, ah you know, um you know, fleeing.
Danny Price: okay
Shane: I think that isn't that the part of just fleeing from sexual immorality, right?
Danny Price: Pretty much, yeah. It's the Corinthians, so they're ah you're really screwing up.
Shane: Yeah. So he's talking about, he's talking in a personal context versus in Ephesians, he's talking about the body of believers in general. So in a sense, he's saying both are in, in, in as much as like in the stones of the temple, right?
Danny Price: OK.
Shane: Each stone is, is a, is in a sense part of the temple.
Danny Price: OK. That's good. Yeah.
Shane: Um, you know, and each stone, like if you, like when you look into, uh, study how the, the temple was built, um, especially Solomon's temple, like there was great care into each stone. Each stone was, was set apart from other stones. They were hand, hand picked.
Shane: They were carved separately. They were, everything about them was set apart from other stones. So, um,
Danny Price: Interesting.
Shane: In a sense, it's it still follows that Paul's saying, like you need to think of yourself that way. like You wouldn't use a defiled stone for a part of the temple.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: And in here, he's saying, but we together um make up the entire temple of God um because Holy Spirit dwells there again.
Danny Price: Huh.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: It's not like you have your own little Holy Spirit in you, and I have my own little Holy Spirit in me.
Danny Price: No, that makes that make sense.
Danny Price: And it's separate.
Shane: Yeah, it's he the Spirit is all of us together.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Interesting.
Shane: um
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: And, um you know, a good kind of example is in 1 Peter 2.5. It says, you yourselves, like living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices, accepting to God. So kind of that each one of us is a living stone of the temple.
Danny Price: Interesting. I like that. That's that's a great analogy. It helped put that in place for me because there was a little bit dissonance. I was like, what what is going on with that? It's a little... little odd.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: The next two questions are from David, who sent some in, which is awesome. um So I'm just going to read it verbatim just from him because I don't want to, I feel bad paraphrasing his question.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: um It says, you talked about the Jewish people and sometimes how they fell into pride or complacency, either feeling superior or being too accepting of what was unrighteous. I'm curious, which of those do you think the church today struggles with more and how we can guard against both?
Shane: um I think it depends on the church, honestly. But I would say the overall church in America probably leans too much on the um struggling with being too accepting, being tolerant of sin.
Danny Price: Complacency. Okay.
Shane: Yeah. um
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: You know, we the the average church, you know, I feel like you get the extremes, right? I literally was just... um um Where did I, I just was talking to somebody that camera who was, they were saying, you know, they're, they at a church, um literally like a guy was caught in sexual sin and they made him get up in front of the whole church and confess his sin.
Shane: And, you know, he was basically 17 year old kid sleeping with his girlfriend. Right. And, you know, so basically, you know, what you're looking at is going, okay, you're one of the 17 year old kids, right. and They got caught.
Shane: know, there's probably a couple others in the group.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um
Danny Price: So he stood up in front of the whole church.
Shane: And they made him stand up in front of the whole church and confess it.
Danny Price: Wow.
Shane: So on one side, what's that?
Danny Price: was that Was that to... Well, I'm curious. was that I wonder if that was like to stay in membership. like If he was like, you're going to be... i mean because i get the The only discipline that they can give him is, you know hey, sorry, you're not in community with our...
Shane: Excommunicated. Yeah. I mean, you know.
Shane: Yeah. And I'm sure at that point it was his parents saying, well, we can't be, you know, kicked out of the church. and I don't know. But my point is on one side, you do have a few churches that I would say, take it way too strong on the judgmental, um, divisive side.
Danny Price: Anyways.
Shane: But most of the time we're, I would say we are a culture that doesn't like to call things out. We're a culture that tries, makes excuses and justifications for things.
Shane: Um, we're a culture that, that excuses sin way too often. um And so I would say we, we struggle for the most part in the tolerance and acceptance.
Shane: um That's why I say we lean too hard that way usually.
Danny Price: And then guarding against them. How do you guard against, how do how do we guard as a church, guard to guard ourselves against that, not being too accepting, and then also against being too prideful?
Shane: Um, I, I think, and I'll, I'll tell you, and you and I have had conversations about this. I, I'm getting where I lean more and more to like,
Shane: like if the Bible says it, we, we need to be clear about it. You know? Um, I was, I, I think, you know, since you've known me, even you, you probably have seen me change a little bit in that. Like, um, I, I definitely, I think when,
Shane: about the time I met you, i was probably in my most progressive, you know, if you want to talk about like progressive Christianity phase.
Danny Price: Like 11 years ago, 10 years ago, something like that.
Shane: Yeah. 10 years ago um and have slowly been kind of moving back towards
Danny Price: Huh.
Shane: you know i think i I used to have kind of more of a legalistic mindset, and now I'm trying to say, hey, if the Bible says it we're going to be really clear about it We're not going to create extra things. We're not going to add ah other stuff, um but we got to be pretty clear with where the Bible is clear in.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: so So I think that's one and not being afraid of it, you know, not hiding from it and shame, shine away from it. You know, I think, you know, having being not not being afraid to have real honest conversations with people and obviously in in love, making sure we are truly being loving when we're when we're doing it.
Danny Price: Right.
Danny Price: That's good. um Kind of a follow-up question to that. I'm just curious what you think about this. how would How do you do that? So as so like obviously individual, ah you have conversations with people. I'm not necessarily talking about that, but as a church, how did how would that look?
Danny Price: for the church to do that in terms of like, would it just be what you're teaching from the pulpit and you're just like really crystal clear about like, Hey, this is sin. This is not right. Or does it look like the way church discipline functions, like the shepherds, you know, having to talk to somebody, like how does that look in practicality?
Danny Price: You know, does that make sense?
Shane: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a lot of, i think it's got a lot of fast facets to it. Right. I mean, one, if it's not being taught from the pulpit and then we're missing there.
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: Um, but two, um, there needs to be some level of more of a personal accountability in it. Um, And people need to know they can bring things to the the elders or shepherds as what we call our elders um because of our LDS neighbors, not getting terms confused.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: But, um um you know, we
Shane: i from that From that angle all the way down to the the peer angle, right? I mean, ah having the kind of relationship where we call a brother or sister out, and then obviously if that brother or sister is unwilling to to repent or unwilling to...
Shane: um you know, seek God in that area and, and we still have a disagreement about that, Hey, this is a sin. And other person doesn't see it as a sin or is just unwilling to look at it. Then, then we take it to the, the leaders of the church.
Danny Price: yeah Right. right
Shane: Yeah. And it's hard in this culture because truthfully, the average, I hate to say it, but the average Christian is going to go, well, whatever, I'll just go to different church.
Danny Price: Right. Yeah. is that Is that a pro on the
Shane: And then we have to get in real quick. And then we have to get into the fact of whether or not that person is really a Christian, Christian, if they're not willing to submit to scripture.
Danny Price: Right, right, exactly. What I was saying is that a pro on the side of people or churches that do membership because it's a little bit more like, hey, I submit myself to the leadership or does it not even matter at that point because you can so easily walk away?
Shane: Anyway.
Shane: i havet I haven't seen it matter. The church I came from had members, and when they yeah when they didn't like it, they just left.
Danny Price: It didn't really.
Shane: It wasn't like they were like, oh, well, now i I have to meet with them to have my membership removed so that I can then have a...
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: If you're a rebellion...
Shane: Because the problem is, the the church they're going to is not going to call you and say, hey, what was the issue, or was there a problem? Yeah, so...
Danny Price: True.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: so
Danny Price: If you're rebellious, you're going to find a way to be rebellious and not live under authority.
Shane: Yep.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Interesting. All right. the next So he had...
Shane: I will say that is one thing that we've lost a little bit since denominationalism has kind of gone to the wayside in it.
Danny Price: I'll go ahead.
Shane: As much as I, I don't like a lot about denominationalism, there was an aspect of like, right.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: If you were Presbyterian, your family was four generation Presbyterian and there was only one Presbyterian church in the Valley.
Danny Price: Uh, yeah.
Danny Price: It's kind of where you went.
Shane: You might be a little willing to do the work to stay a Presbyterian versus becoming a Methodist or a Baptist.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Does that make sense? I don't know if you really did the work in a in a humble and submissive mindset or you just kind of like, well, whatever, you know, and, you know.
Danny Price: It totally makes sense.
Danny Price: Right. Right. Interesting. Yeah. Now, I mean, you could pick any church, um, across a pretty large slew of different options, especially like if you live in a bigger city, um, and there's, there should be at least, especially, I mean, Utah is not a great example.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Cause we're, We have a ton of churches, but still we have a fair amount in the Valley where I'm like, you could just easily pick a different church if you fell out of fellowship or whatever, we're asked to leave a church.
Danny Price: Very easy to find a different one.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: ah Anyways. um So next question also from David. And again, I'll read it verbatim. When you talked about not dividing over secondary issues, that really made me think. Yeah.
Danny Price: How do we actually define what's primary versus secondary? Are there certain secondary issues that we should take a stronger stance on than others? And then he talks about, for example, he's seen some churches take a very heavy emphasis on speaking in tongues to the point where it can feel off-putting or push people away. Or on the other hand, churches that are very legalistic and rigid, and that can also push people away.
Shane: Yeah. um So how do we know what is a primary versus a secondary? um I would actually say more of the word essential versus secondary.
Danny Price: ahha Yeah.
Shane: um i know primary goes in line with secondary, but, but, you know, you want to think what, what is essential to saying someone would be able to call themselves a Christ follower?
Shane: I feel like that to me is i the key things we have to we have to look at. um you know And that's always an interesting exercise too. I remember when I took ah my first theology class going to seminary, that we had to write out everything we said was essential for someone to be a believer.
Shane: And then the professor challenged us on those things
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: until like we got down to you know, it like literally like for most of us, it was like, well, there's really like, I guess these three things.
Danny Price: Hmm. Uh-huh.
Danny Price: Interesting.
Shane: um So, but i would say this is that like for me, I would say, okay, there's probably two or three things that make someone a believer. However, I still believe there's more than that to that's worth standing against him.
Shane: Like, I don't necessarily believe that someone and take this with a grain of salt, make sure you listen to this whole thing.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: Whoever, if any, for the three of you that are listening, um, that I don't necessarily believe someone has to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God to be a Christian.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: Now, Because quite frankly, I became a Christian before I really even understood anything about the Bible.
Danny Price: ah hu
Shane: i you know And I think many, many people have. Now the question though, what I would say, okay, now as we're talking about like, okay, is that church, is it worth is it worth dividing over this or is it worth fighting over this?
Shane: Yes, it still is because it should be, i would say that's like, I think every believer would
Danny Price: Right.
Shane: would say Okay, yeah that's fine. You don't understand that yet. But that is one of the key things you should be understanding if you're at all going to call yourself a disciple of Christ.
Danny Price: right
Shane: So does that make sense? Did I say that clearly?
Danny Price: No, it does. No, you did. It's funny. I was listening to Mike Winger again, almighty Mike Winger. um just And he talked about this exact thing. And he said, technically speaking, the infallibility of scripture is not a salvation issue because that's not necessarily what is required.
Shane: yes
Danny Price: But then he goes, but if you don't believe in that, man, you're you're on a slippery slope and you can go everywhere with that. Like it's it's pretty terrible where the places you can take not believing that scripture
Shane: Yeah. hi Yeah, I would question the person who says, oh, i've been a believer for seven years and I don't believe in the um fallibility of scripture. I would be like, o man, we're, you know...
Danny Price: Yeah. So where are you getting your, yeah. Yeah.
Shane: Yeah. Where are you getting your teaching? Are you reading? Have you read the Bible at all? Are you, um you know, what? Yeah, there'd be so many things I would question on that. So, so I, you know, so i guess that's what I would say is, um oh, you know what, dude, we, we started to talk about this and um hang on one second.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: Let me, I did, did we talk about the Wesleyan call quadrilateral?
Danny Price: uh-uh you a wesleyan
Shane: um Give me one second. Because this just applies.
Danny Price: for those of you don't know wesleyan refers to john wesley who was one of the reformers um who was more of an armenian thought guy not kind of opposed to john calvin and his his views so there's a lot of wesleyan churches and colleges that are out there um
Shane: Yeah. Yep. Yep. um Okay, so the Wesleyan quadrilateral is the um basically like ah if you picture like a diagram with like, you know, the like the four sections.
Danny Price: That's a big word.
Danny Price: Axes. Yeah.
Shane: What's that?
Danny Price: Like an X an x and x and Y axis.
Shane: Yes, thank you. Yeah, you're laughing at me. I can tell because you're like Shane.
Danny Price: ah
Shane: Shane's gonna try and talk about math stuff.
Danny Price: That's something quadrilateral. ah it's really it's really Anyways. Anyways.
Shane: Anyway, area but but we i can't even remember what the topic was. was a few weeks ago that afterwards I was like, oh, we should have talked about this. Because we were talking about how when people interpret and how you can get off, you can get way out in the left field when you're just interpreting scripture.
Danny Price: uh-huh okay
Shane: But the quadrilateral basically says that we everything should be balanced against four things.
Danny Price: okay
Shane: scripture tradition reason and experience and um and what what the the thought of it is is it most of okay so the y and x axis i'm gonna look like such an idiot um So, you know, the top part of that square, that is at the X.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: OK, so this the biblical, the scripture and tradition, most of what you interpret through and most of how you think of things should be put through the lens of scripture and tradition that should be given the most.
Danny Price: OK. Uh-huh.
Shane: weight in your, in your interpretation. Then the third, then at the bottom part of that with a little bit of emphasis on them would be your own personal reason, like your, your brain power to reason um wise news, wisdom and your, and your experiences.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: But if you're just like interpreting scripture through your, like you're giving 70% of it to your experiences and you're not in, you're throwing out tradition
Danny Price: You're going to be way off base.
Shane: Well, you're you're probably going to get off way off in your interpretation.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Does that make sense?
Danny Price: Yeah. Totally makes sense. And then
Shane: Okay.
Danny Price: Uh
Shane: So, so anyway, that's kind of going back to what we were talking about. Like, I can't remember what week it was, but we were talking about interpreting scripture, but, but yeah your point about how do we know what is a, a primary is, you know, i think when we look, we look at the top of that um quadrilateral, the scripture and tradition
Danny Price: huh.
Shane: I think the things we would say, man, tradition throughout the history of the church, they've held to these things.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, you know, those those and and, you know, I don't and that doesn't matter if you're a Church of Christ or Presbyterian or Baptist or even, you know, even Catholic.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, and, you know, so I would say that that's how we know it's a primary. And then we have secondary things.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And that's a perfect example. Predestination versus free will. You know, Wesley, who's more of an Armenian thought. And then John Calvin, who is more of a predestination um Calvinist thought, obviously.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: So um they would still be brothers in Christ, although they would argue vehemently, you know.
Danny Price: Right, right, right.
Shane: So don't if that makes sense.
Danny Price: And I guess, yeah, and I guess primary doctrine, I mean, I just did some Google searches just just now, just to like look through some of this stuff. And I mean, this is what this is what like Google's coming up with, and there's so many websites, and they're all a little bit different, but I mean, here's what it's coming up with. You have to believe the Trinity, the belief that God is one, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. You have to believe that that Jesus came and was God and man, the deity humanity of Christ. You have to believe in salvation by grace, and that is a gift of God received through faith, not through human works.
Danny Price: You have to believe in the death and resurationction rection resurrection of Christ. um You have to believe in monothe ah monotheism. um You know, there there is a God that created all things, and you have to believe that Jesus is coming back.
Danny Price: ah which is, there's more if you ah go down, like different, other places we'll talk about, and I'm just like going through this, other other places we'll talk about ah the virgin birth, which again would be like more like if you read like did like the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed.
Danny Price: ah And then obviously like human human depravity and like sin and Jesus, and like, it's all like kind interconnected.
Shane: Yeah. Well, and that...
Shane: Yeah, and that's actually... What you just said, the like the Nicene Creed, that's a, you know, pretty much that that if those things would be things that were most...
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: people would say that whole thing is primary, you know?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: um And actually I go back to, that's what I like about the EFCA's statement of faith is I would say, um I can't think of anything that is in there that's not primary, at least as far as the the heading of each one, you know, exactly how it's worded.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: Now that's, that's a whole different thing, but you know, the the basic thought of each of the doctrines and statements of faith, I would say those are primaries.
Danny Price: Sure. Sure.
Danny Price: Okay.
Shane: um you know, where I've been a part of churches, like I was a part of the Christian churches, Church of Christ, and a secondary was they believe um that you have to take the Lord's Supper every week.
Shane: um And they believe in um baptism is essential for salvation. um And so so there's two things that most Christians would argue against.
Shane: You know,
Danny Price: Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Shane: And then, you know, then the second part of that question was something about like, um are there secondary issues that are more important than others? I think, is that basically, am I saying that right?
Danny Price: Yes, yeah that was that what exactly that was exactly what he said.
Shane: Okay. And, and I would say, yeah, um I actually have heard it described as there's, there's the essential or primary issues, there's secondary issues. And then there's, um what's the word? um
Danny Price: Tertiary is like the...
Shane: Marginal issues, I think is the word.
Danny Price: Okay, yeah.
Shane: um So, so there's still, And there's still something that that might be fun to talk about and debate, but they're not even really like, I would care to sway someone. um And a lot of that is like how you, um let's just say, how you interpret um some of the Christian ethics. Like, let's just say you're a Christian who believes um ah fighting for any reason is wrong.
Danny Price: harry Harry Potter. Harry Potter. Yeah.
Shane: yeah Okay. Yeah. Harry Potter. Let's just, that's yeah. You know that you're, you don't want to let your kids watch Harry Potter. Cool, man. That's, that's a conviction. And you can probably point to me 10 scriptures. It would, that, that help your view and make you, you know, you feel confident in that and convicted in that.
Shane: But I, you know, it's, ah Someone can find other passages that would say, you know, well, yeah, but there's, you know, there's a battle of good and evil, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Shane: So, and so, you know, I think those, those are conviction things.
Danny Price: Right. Right.
Shane: And, um, I've heard it said that with, with sec, with those issues, you want to be able to, um, argue Argue, discuss them, have fun with them, and and it and it shouldn't bother you one bit either way in the end.
Danny Price: right
Shane: um And you you just hold your convictions and you let the other brother, the Holy Spirit, work with that that person. And in the secondary issues, you should be able to go to a church and not divide over them and maybe just be a little uncomfortable with them.
Shane: You know, like, like, you know, be like, yeah you know, I'm, I'm not, that's not the way I would teach this, but, but I, overall the heart of this church, I love it.
Danny Price: okay
Shane: And I'm, and then the primary issues, you should leave that church.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: You know, you should, you shouldn't be a part of it. Get out of there, you know?
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So that's how I, you know, look at those.
Danny Price: okay OK. Yeah, and I think people will end up self-filtering based off of secondary issues into certain churches. Although I think most Christians, I just had a conversation with someone about this that came up to camp.
Danny Price: Most Christians would say over secondary issues, if it was the only good church in the era you area, you should probably go to that church. Like if there's, like if you're out in the middle of Duchenne or wherever and you have no other church to go to and you don't line up with them on a secondary issue, it's like, okay, but you probably need, it's more important that you're in community with the body of believers than
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: Oh, absolutely. Well, and that's what I was trying to say. I, the secondary issue, you should, you should, you should be able to go to that church and just be a little uncomfortable with that thing.
Danny Price: Yeah. Yeah.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: but Yeah. Sorry. i I think I was just restating you were saying. I didn't think that you were not saying that. So.
Shane: Oh, okay. Gotcha. Yep.
Danny Price: um All right.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Let's see here. I'll go ahead.
Shane: Well, real quick. Also, let's just say there's some other good churches there in the area.
Danny Price: ah go ahead
Shane: But I'll just tell you, like like, say there were five other churches. i was like, oh, that those are actually more lined up with where i than me. But I've been going to this church for a few years, and I guess I just didn't research it beforehand or whatever.
Shane: And my kids are involved in the youth group, and they have a good core of fellowship of friends here that are that are godly and are seeking the Lord. And my wife's and involved of in Bible study, and our marriage is improving here.
Shane: Man, i I'd get over that secondary issue in a heartbeat.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. No, it's super important to be plugged in with the body believers. And yeah, there's, there's a lot we could talk about with different, and again, different secondary issues, bring up different things.
Danny Price: So um depending on it, um I wanted to ask, so you didn't do it in the second service, but in the first service you talked about at the end of the sermon, you were saying, there's anyone that's really had broken relationship at their previous church,
Shane: Yeah, it depends. Yeah, yeah.
Danny Price: that, hey, if you're if you're coming to Mountain View, that's great. We love you here. But if you just left or if you just like broke a relationship with someone and it and it was kind of left you know a mess, you should probably go back and revisit that and at least at least talk to them.
Danny Price: And even if you're not going to return to that church or whatever, um can you break that down, what you were what you meant by that a little bit more and just like what your thoughts were behind saying that?
Shane: yeah Can I ask you a question first?
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: How'd you feel about that?
Danny Price: It didn't bother me at all. I thought it was cool. um Personally, i' i would tell you if I did, I didn't think it was weird.
Shane: Okay.
Danny Price: um I thought it was... do I say this? I thought... I'm like, i don't know if anyone's going to do that because that's a really difficult thing to do. um um i've left I've never left the church.
Danny Price: haven't really left the church. I shouldn't say that. But I've never like not gone to a church because I've like had bad relationship or really broken relationship with someone. But if I had... I'm a pretty confrontational person and I can see myself being like, Oh, I don't want to go back and talk to that person. Like that's a hard thing to do.
Danny Price: So yeah, I don't know. I, I didn't have a problem with it though. i thought it was cool.
Shane: Okay.
Danny Price: In the, in the right context, I think you were trying to talk about it as in like ah other Christian churches and like, you know, if you were dividing over like a secondary issue, kind of that kind of stuff, I guess.
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: Yeah. so, you know, cause I hit on church hurt and how people have left. so i was kind of like people leave churches over hurt and that kind thing. and
Danny Price: Uh huh.
Shane: And my, I think my point of that is that if you're going to leave a church over hurt, eventually you're going to leave every church in the area. Yeah.
Danny Price: Hmm.
Shane: Honestly, you know, um and because it'll get easier and easier.
Danny Price: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Shane: um The less the more we run from confrontation. um The easier it is to run the next time and and the more we begin to think of confrontation as a negative thing.
Shane: And I think we live in a culture that needs to learn that confrontation, you know, there, I go back to Charlie Kirk. he He was painted as a bad guy by people because they didn't like that he confronted.
Shane: But if you hear, if you listen, not just to sound bites, but to the whole conversations that Charlie Kirk had, and he was, he was seeking to confront in a way, but, but I mean, I'm not saying some, I mean, shoot.
Danny Price: Mm-hmm.
Shane: Yeah. We all, sometimes he got, little snide or whatever but for the most part you know he was just trying to like well give me what you think let's talk let's talk through but we've kind of the more we become a culture that thinks that confrontation is a bad thing the the more dangerous that is i think so as christians i think we need to set the example in that um and so i think we need to we need to deal with things whenever possible um
Danny Price: right
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: Um, and, and we grow because of that. So anyway, so that's part of it. Um, and yeah, and I just do, I think we, the church divides because of those things.
Shane: Um, and i think even church leadership allows people to stay in um destructive patterns because we're afraid to make people deal with sin um
Danny Price: Hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Shane: and and and or just repair relationships. so um So anyway, so yeah, I'm a big believer in it.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: I think people should. We actually, I used to, I've got... i don't know I've gotten out of the habit of it, but I used to the like the first seven or eight years here, every time I did um our one-on-one style class, we called it something else back then.
Danny Price: ah
Shane: um I would basically say say that. I'd say, hey, if you're here and you came here from a different church and you came because you're upset at that church, um honestly, we'd rather not have you here unless you're going to go back and repair that first.
Shane: And, um, cause I'll be honest, especially when you're a small church, I don't, I don't want you. yeah just, I, I, we don't want you at this church because if, because if that's how you handle things, you're going to eventually cause problems here.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And, you know, think we're at a, we're at size now where that stuff can get dealt with without it blowing up the whole church, you know, but, but it still is destructive.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So, um, Um, so anyway, that's why I said it.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: That's what I meant by I did not say it in a second service because quite frankly, it was not in my notes. It was not at all. It was just a conviction I had.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: And then after service, um, someone I respect in leadership, well, respect to all the people in our leadership, but came, but came to me and said, um Hey, based on the fact that we have people that have left the LDS church, um,
Shane: And, and they're hurt by that was why they, one the reasons they left it, the way you said it, it wasn't super clear.
Danny Price: yeah
Shane: And they might think you're telling them to go back to their LDS church. I was like, Oh, I do not want that to be what I'm trying to, what people interpret.
Danny Price: Yeah. No.
Shane: So because I don't have it thought out clearly enough, I'm not going to repeat it.
Danny Price: No, that's thats smart. And i didn't I didn't get that, but I can see, think that's my context. I didn't get that. But from someone else's context, I could see you know they them being like, wait, what?
Shane: Yeah.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Um, but me knowing just that's, ah that's very common.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: And I think, who was talking to? Was it, I was talking to you about this, but like there's certain churches and it's like, I think, you know what? I think it was actually Matt Chandler. So funny. Um, but he talks about this. He's like, I, he, he's like, I hate the church shuffle.
Danny Price: of like Because they live in they're in the Dallas area, so it's you know tons of churches, tons of Christians.
Shane: yep
Danny Price: He's like, I just hate He's like, I hate it. He's like, I hate, oh, I don't like this, go over here. And then I don't like this, so I'm over here and And you just shuffle around. And it's like, we don't grow the kingdom. We're just shuffling members in between the churches. like you know We're all like moving people around, but it's not a you know from the left hand to the right hand.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: But it's not actually growing the kingdom. We're not actually bringing in believers. We're just finding new people to steal from other churches. Yeah. Or lose, I guess, if you're not stealing, you're losing.
Danny Price: But it's it's not healthy. just just to i mean and Again, I'm not telling people, and I wouldn't ever say this to people, like, hey, if there's a legitimate reason or if there's you know you you might have reasons to leave a church because you're moving or whatever, or i don't know, there's any number of reasons to leave a church.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: that's I don't think that's what Shane's saying here. I would be like, yeah, that's fine. it's If you're leaving under really angsty circumstances and you're not dealing with it, because... Like you said, that just brings that just brings up stuff.
Shane: Yeah, yeah. There's there's other reasons to leave a church. I'm just saying if if there's an issue between you and the leadership or you and a different person at the church, I think you need to deal with it. you And even if you still decide to leave after that, but but be able to leave as brothers and sisters in Christ who, let's put this way, if you're going to have a problem passing someone at the grocery store, you know, when you see them, like if it's going to make you turn around and go the other way, that thing, there's probably an issue that you need to deal with.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Hmm. Hmm.
Danny Price: Probably should say something. Yeah, I probably should say something. um I'm going to, this last question,
Danny Price: don't know if, feet we' so we're so late on time. Okay, really quick. Ephesians 2.15.
Shane: Okay.
Danny Price: I was just reading through this, and it I know it's technically not in this sermon, but like i was I was like, oh, geez. Let me pull it up. I want to read this. because it got me thinking, I was just reading through because been reading through um almost each week, or and or each day, excuse me, reading through like whatever chapter we're in in Ephesians.
Shane: so yeah
Danny Price: um But this one, it says, i'm going to back up a little bit so it's in context. So this is verse 14. For he himself is our peace, who had made us both one and his broken head down and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of two, so making peace.
Danny Price: It sounds like he's, it says abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances. And my mind just goes right to Leviticus. My mind goes to, okay, he's just tearing down completely. Like we don't to listen to any of that anymore.
Danny Price: He's tearing it down. But then it also is talking about like begin the beginning chapter is talking about circumcision. And again, it's Gentile Jewish context. Is that what he's saying? Is he breaking down the laws, like the law completely? Like it's gone, it's abolished, or is it?
Danny Price: Like, you know I'm thinking like the Ten Commandments and like all this like stuff. I know we've talked about that in the past of like the moral, civil, all that law, but it sounds kind of aggressive here with what he's saying. What are your thoughts on that quickly?
Danny Price: Sorry.
Shane: Yeah, no, I actually did a little bit of study on that, actually. And um there are some commentators that would say, or theologians that would say, that he's specifically actually even talking about more of the ceremonial and ritual laws of the Old Testament, because he's moving into the the temple.
Danny Price: Okay. Okay. Uh-huh.
Shane: aspect, right?
Danny Price: Uh-huh.
Shane: So they're they're connecting that and saying, um yeah, we don't have any we don't have to follow any of the ceremonial or ritual laws. And we talked about this one week too. remember the difference between moral, ceremonial, and ritual.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Shane: So um so there are some that saying that's but what he's saying. you're We're not under that at all. Um, but, um, even if you were to say, he's talking about all the law, you could say that we aren't because we aren't under the law.
Shane: Like the Jewish person was in that, um, in that we're saved by observing that law and then making sacrifices for when we don't. we're We're saved now through Christ, and now we obey the law out of out of sanctification, out of a pursuit of holiness.
Shane: We don't—we're not under it in the same way that the Jewish person was. so So I think it could— go either way, however you wanted to see it.
Shane: If you're thinking it's talking about the whole law, including the moral law that, well, we're not under it in the same way a Jew was, you know, but we still obviously have to follow the God's law.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Right. Okay.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: That was good. Yeah, sorry. I'm like, I didn't want to open. I'm like, ah, dang it. It was a good question. i didn't want to ah Open up a whole can
Shane: Yeah. You know, and I think anytime you see that in the Bible, you know, it's so easy for us to read those verses about where we're not under the law or that, you know, there's lots of parts of it, but, but it really goes back to then, you know, cause like I'm going to like this week, we're talking on chapter three and I'm just going to real quick ah read some, a couple of verses here in chapter three.
Shane: um Paul's praying for them, right? In light of all these things, he just basically done a written sermon in chapter one and two on, In chapter 3, he prays for them in verse 17. He says, um he's praying these things, so that that so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, that you being rooted and ground in ground and love may be may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth, the length, the height, and the depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Shane: So we have to take those concepts of like, oh, you're free with coupled with this mindset that, yeah, you're free to love Jesus so fully day that you shouldn't even be asking that question.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: Yeah. yeah
Shane: You know, like you should that you shouldn't even be questioning. Well, do I have to do this? Do I have to do that? I mean, you know, there again, I always go back to marriage, but marriage isn't going to last very long if you're going to your wife going, hey, babe, if I have to stay faithful to you, I will.
Danny Price: Do I have to? If I have to, I will.
Shane: but But are you okay if I'm not? Like, is it all right? Is it, you know, it's like, it's really when people do that, i when people like, and I know you weren't doing that, um but, know, so don't think I'm, but when people have that mindset, I'm just like, man, you so are missing the gospel.
Danny Price: Yeah.
Danny Price: I know.
Danny Price: Yeah. No, I totally agree.
Shane: Yeah.
Danny Price: Awesome. One last thing want to mention as we round like round out the episode is I've thought about this with the whole church and the temple and everything, especially people from an LDS background. Just to clarify what the church is, again,
Danny Price: The church is more than just a building. The building's where we gather, yes, but we've been talking about this primary doctrine. All these churches that believe this primary doctrine, it's all capital C.
Shane: Mm-hmm.
Danny Price: but we would We say capital C as in like you know bold letterhead, the church. Christ's bride, so to speak. I think a lot of people that aren't familiar with that context would be like, well, what is what is the what is the real church? What's the true church?
Danny Price: Just a reminder. And I think it was on it's been going around on social media a lot of like, which I love it. it's This is not the church. And it's like a video of the empty building. It's like, this is the church.
Shane: Yeah, we we actually have one now.
Danny Price: And it's like people, I know I saw it. Well, I love it.
Shane: Sierra did one.
Danny Price: I love it because I'm like, that's so accurate. The church is not the building.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: The building is, we're not the temp. The church building is not the temple.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: um it's ah and it's it's It's important. it's just i think I believe there's some sacred there's some sacredness to it, and we should have reverence and respect because that's where we worship God. But it's not like God's presence is there ah any different than it would be anywhere else, and I guess, in a true sense, because we're one or more believers of God together than also God is.
Danny Price: So it's it's it's ah it's a it's and it's it's it's a slight so shift, I guess.
Shane: Yep.
Danny Price: Sorry, I'm struggling with my words. It's a slight shift from... what it used to be, but then also from common religions. And, you know, I'm thinking of like the LDS religion where it's like, well God's only in this one area, the temple special, there's all this like specialness to all this, all these buildings.
Danny Price: As Christians, we don't have, we don't have to worry about that. We have the capital C church. We have the whole body believers from now and then from history. And then looking forward that we're all going worshiping with forever as a bride of Christ, which is kind of cool.
Danny Price: So anyways, Oh, long episode. We're crushing it.
Shane: yeah
Danny Price: I thought this one was going to shorter too. I had less questions. um Anyways, hope you guys are enjoying. um We'll catch you guys next week.
Shane: Yeah, and hey, don't don't don't forget to like it and review it and do all that for us. it it'll still It'll help spread it.
Danny Price: Yeah, give us five stars. Don't give us a one star if you're thinking of reviewing it.
Shane: Yeah, if you don't review it if you're not going give us five stars.
Danny Price: Only five stars.
Shane: All right,
Danny Price: I want to get three reviews. Let's say all five stars and we'll bump us up to the leaderboards on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. right, guys. Thanks. We'll see you. Bye.
Shane: by bye.
