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Is The World Inherently Good or Evil? | Mythic Mirror Ep 15
15 Plays13 days ago
Dive into fantasy genres and life philosophies with Mary and Carolina! What did hopepunk originally mean? How can we be noblebright in a grimdark world? Catch Mary misquoting something she really should know better! To see the animal guest stars that appear in this episode, check out the video version on youtube @mythicmirrorpod.
Join the Book Launch for Mary's upcoming epic fantasy, Breaking Inlands, at kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
Mary's Spark of the Week: mithrasa.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Hope Punk vs. Noble Bright
00:00:00
Speaker
How can we be noble bright in a grim, dark world?
00:00:15
Speaker
So in our last episode, which was not a book club episode, Carolina, you asked a very interesting question, which now became this episode's question. How can we be noble bright in grimdark world?
00:00:30
Speaker
So I want to answer that question, but I also wanted to revisit Hope Punk because I did more research afterwards. And it's it's kind of an interesting evolution of the term. And i and it really isn't. It began in 2017, and it's still not very commonly used. But I think it's an interesting because even in that short amount of time,
00:00:55
Speaker
It's kind of changed from its original meaning, I think, from what we hear people talking about it versus what the original author who first coined the term said about it. So i'm I'm just going to jump right in unless you have something to say beforehand. I don't think so. Jump in.
00:01:14
Speaker
So I found the original author who coined the term back in 2017. And in her article, I'm going to quote it real quick. So this is a quote of her talking about Noble Bright and why she coined the term Hope Punk instead. If I say coin the term one more time...
00:01:36
Speaker
Just shoot me. Okay, so this is her talking about Noble Bright. It's about a core of goodness in humanity. It's most of the Arthurian legends, the Star Wars original tri trilogy, Narnia. its In Tolkien terms, it's Aragorn, rather than Frodo and Sam, which are Pope Punk as hell.
00:01:56
Speaker
Can I say hell? I don't know. In noble bright, when we overthrow the dark Lord, the world is saved and our work is done. Equilibrium and serenity return to the land. Our king is kind and good and pure of heart. That's why he's the king.
00:02:11
Speaker
It's all very nice. So this is at the end of the quote. And you might be able to tell from the way I read nice. She doesn't like it. And I don't like the way she's using it for these stories that she's talking about. Um, i disagree with her claim about Noble Bright and how she differentiates it from Hope Punk is she says that for Hope Punk, the world will always have evil.
00:02:41
Speaker
So the fact that the characters are being good and being kind is not just a rebellion against whoever is evil and in control. It's a rebellion against the inherent sliding into evil that will always be there. Right.
Perceptions of Evil in Genres
00:02:58
Speaker
That what makes it punk, what makes it counterculture is that the common culture is evil.
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah. And will always be so. Like even if you win this time, evil will just come back. I have a whole thought on this. So do you want to jump in and give me your reaction first?
00:03:15
Speaker
Well, one, I disagree that at the end of Lord of the Rings, everything's great. You know, like Frodo is so broken that he has to go into the West. He's from what he's seen and what he's been through. i think that it's very obvious that there's like a rebuilding that needs to happen. And I kind of see it, and I don't know if this is old age, but just sort of like the work in these stories, it's not a happy it's not a happily ever after. The work in these stories is never ending, just as the that your chores are never done.
00:03:48
Speaker
You know, like just because you swept and mopped the floor today, you know, it's like if you were to bring it down to the mundane, you swept and mopped the floor today, you did it. That was your journey. That was your battle. And the winning thing is you have a clean floor, but you will still have to mop and sweep the floor again.
00:04:03
Speaker
It will get dirty. that That life is more of a ah maintenance that we're caretakers, we're gardeners, we're stewards of life in the noble, bright world. Yeah.
00:04:16
Speaker
And that's not a bad thing, that having ritual and routine is not a bad thing, and that doesn't mean that evil will win. it just means that it's kind of how I, you know, when I was little, I'd get really ah claustrophobic when people would describe heaven as never having to work again.
00:04:33
Speaker
Because to me, they give with nothing to strive for, nothing to work for, it didn't seem like it would be heaven. And I feel the same thing about happily ever after, where if you're just done,
00:04:44
Speaker
That's not happily ever after. Stagnancy does not equal happily ever after. So that's my rant. I totally agree with you. And I love the way you said that.
00:04:54
Speaker
It's like striving is a part of the equilibrium. Creation is a part of the the happiness. Right. So in that sense, because you're saying the maintenance goes on and that, you know, your work isn't done, which could be Hope Punk, but in her in her terms, it's like the work against corruption, the work against like human evil is never done.
Human Choices in Hope Punk and Noble Bright
00:05:21
Speaker
Right, and I can't remember if you and I talked about this on the podcast last time or if we just talked about it outside of it, but talking about evil is more of a disease. more of a Because it's like if you don't change the oil out in your car, it will break down. Is that evil winning or is that just negligence? If you don't work to maintain your relationships, they will crumble. Is that evil winning or is that just the common outcome of neglect?
00:05:51
Speaker
um If you don't eat healthy and exercise, disease will have a better chance of taking hold in your body. Is that evil winning or is that just the natural outcome of neglect? So I don't see it as that like evil is always pounding at the door. And if you let your guard down for a second, it will get in. But I do see it as that ritual and routine in all things is the key to happiness. And I think what's really interesting and what you just said is each of those examples, there's a human choice.
00:06:21
Speaker
And then that's, I wrote up notes because I had thoughts about this, but that was one of the things I was thinking that it it hinges on is in in my worldview and in Noble Bright is those those human choices.
00:06:40
Speaker
Like, yes, human choices can lead to evil outcomes, but that doesn't mean that the world is inherently evil or that humans will always choose that. And i then I think that's where we get to the difference, you know, down to the difference in a lot of these genres. I saw ah i saw comments about Hulk Punk when it was described the way this author described it of the world's always going to have corruption. It's always going to have the darkness or evil or whatever, however you want to call it. And that, you know, we are just going to be radically kind in any way and always fight it. And I saw multiple comments saying, well, that's grimdark.
00:07:19
Speaker
and And so these readers, and it was coming from people who loved grim dark. So I thought that was really interesting because people outside of the genre say that that there's no hope or no resolution in grim dark, but people who are reading it saying, no, that's the whole point is that the world is grim and dark, but people are going to keep trying to do good.
00:07:42
Speaker
even if they're not like moral characters or perfect characters. Sorry, I was just thinking about every dystopian novel that's come out in the last couple of years. You know, like, would you describe The Hunger Games as Hope Punk or Grimdark or Noble Bright? You know, like what?
00:07:58
Speaker
If you're going to really get down to the minutia, what really is the difference? Right. So I'm not sure about Grimdark now because we need so we need an expert Grimdark. But i so the the only thing I could come up with with Hope, Punk, and Noble Bright is the idea of is the world inherently good or not?
00:08:19
Speaker
And because this author is saying no, and that's what makes it nice or tidy is this idea that, you know, if we just do our part, the world will go back to being good. And is her kind of simplified version of Noble Bright.
00:08:35
Speaker
And I would say, you know, it's not tidy. Noble Bright characters are flawed, but it is this idea that when they do something good, it is because it's coming from the very core of themselves that their truest self is inherently good. So I pulled up a quote from um this is Sam and Frodo, which is interesting because she was saying that they were like the whole punk element in Lord the Rings.
00:09:06
Speaker
I see them as noble, right? Because everything's getting stripped away from them through this, the course of their journey. And till all that they have left is that,
00:09:20
Speaker
the will to go on and the will to finish because they know it's the right thing to do. And he's talking about the tales that everyone actually remembers, the important stories. And he says, and he's talking about the characters in those stories. And he says, but I expect they had lots of chances like us of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten. We hear about those as just went on.
00:09:49
Speaker
And not all to a good end, mind you, at least not to what folks inside a story and not outside it call a good end. So to me, that's noble, bright, in that they're going to keep going. And and it might that might not be their personal good end.
00:10:07
Speaker
But I love the distinction here, he says, or what they might not call a good end, or even the the hearer of the tale might call a good end. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a good end. So then what is the good end?
Default States of Hope
00:10:20
Speaker
I'm just like trying to detangle the threads of what's what in my head. And one of the things I read about Hope Bright, Hope Punk versus Noble Bright. Oh, new genre, Hope Bright. I love it.
00:10:36
Speaker
Is that in Noble Bright, hope is the default. And I guess the only distinction I would be able to make is that in Lord of the Rings, it starts in the Shire and life is good.
00:10:48
Speaker
that Evil has not taken hold yet. And that in Hope Punk, hope is the resistance. So is it just, you know, we're just like a little further along in the tale or something? I don't know.
00:11:04
Speaker
I watched a movie last night that I think was the perfect example of hope punk, um, project Hail Mary. And I've been comparing in my head, as you talk about Sam and Frodo, just like what, why I think it's such hope punk and not noble bright.
00:11:25
Speaker
And a little bit of that, uh, I think too,
00:11:30
Speaker
I am not going to do any spoilers because I know you want to see this. And also it is a really good book if people want to read it as well. um the It's kind of, an I would say, an unlikely hero.
00:11:43
Speaker
i feel like noble, bright characters consciously make the effort and choose to be noble and good. and And this is sort of... um an unlikely hero who just is a really good person and makes these incredible choices.
00:12:05
Speaker
But he's not, that's not his default. He's not, he's not the, the Aragorn type, if that makes sense. And I think that's all I will say, unless I think of more things to say, minus any sort of spoiler.
00:12:20
Speaker
Well, then i I can't comment on it since I haven't seen it yet. And I haven't it. know. I'm sorry. But no, no. i I'd watch it again with you for the record. Okay, good. ah you But you bring up a really interesting point about the character consciously making the choice that they think is right and good.
00:12:38
Speaker
Or you said consciously working to be good versus they're inherently good and they and make choices that end up being good. Is that what you mean?
00:12:50
Speaker
I think what I mean, bear with me while I figure out what I mean. this What I'm saying is that Noble Bright, it's almost like what you expect. and Okay, so Lord of the Rings, it's like what I expect from those characters.
00:13:06
Speaker
um Aragorn, I expect him to be a hero. Legolas, I expect him to be honorable. And in and maybe that is I'm going to just be the devil's advocate here. Maybe that is what makes Sam and Frodo a little more hope punk is it's the it's the unexpected element. It's the innocent, not born to be a hero, but continues to be one.
00:13:35
Speaker
It's the it's in the little things. It's in the ordinary folk choosing brave things. I think that is what it has evolved to be. Whereas the originator of this term, I think the difference was more in the way they saw the world rather than the characters. But I think you're right in that Hope Punk has become more about the characters and everyday people and how we live. Like we're going to be Hope Punk in this world to try and make a difference in small ways.
00:14:08
Speaker
And that I like. it's it's an i I like what Hope Punk has evolved into. Whereas in reading the original creation of it, the violence in the world is inherent and that is what their kindness and honesty is rebelling against.
00:14:26
Speaker
And that it will be a rebellion that doesn't end because the violence and the corruption will always be there. rather than Noble Bright where there is the hope, which is interesting because Noble Bright actually has the hope of ridding the world of this corruption of evil at some point, whereas Hope Punk doesn't. So think it's interesting that she used the word hope, but then took away the hope of ever ending the battle. But it's it's then I guess that's where the rebellion of having hope comes from. Punk comes in.
00:14:57
Speaker
Yeah. Whereas with Noble Bright, they are... There's the idea that it will end, even if we
World Comparison: Plutocracy vs. Grimdark
00:15:05
Speaker
don't see it. It's that that idea of the good end. Even if we don't see that good end, even if we don't sit under the trees that we're planting, we won't enjoy the shade, but someone will.
00:15:14
Speaker
And that's where the nobility comes in, because there's a level of the self-sacrifice. With Aragorn, he avoided being king, avoided trying to be king for...
00:15:25
Speaker
centuries he he just was living as a ranger so it's interesting that you say we as the reader expect him to be the hero but is it because we already knew he would be he didn't expect to be the hero uh Elrond had kind of given up hope on him like he's he left that path long ago I think he was thought he was choosing to be the hero by stepping back because of the weakness in his bloodline that he thought he would be a bad king.
00:15:56
Speaker
So even by choosing not to be king, he's still choosing good. Yeah, that's true. In his own mind.
00:16:04
Speaker
Let's do a Discworld Delight. oh he a lad Okay, we've got a couple guesses. um Dave says, sounds like carpe jugulum. Jugulum? Sorry.
00:16:16
Speaker
I don't know why i tried to give that a little zhuzh. i haven't read that one for a long time. ah Somebody else guessed men at arms. Guards, guards, and thud, and snuff.
00:16:30
Speaker
Ooh. Good guesses. All good guesses. Carpe jugulum is one of my favorites, but it is not that one. It is indeed snuff. Oh, snuff said. Which is another one of my favorite ones. Snuff said.
00:16:44
Speaker
right. So for this week, this will also give you the Discworld world within the world.
00:16:57
Speaker
World.
00:17:00
Speaker
"'I should loosen her corsets if I was you,' she said as she ambled past. "'Good heavens, madam, there's enough panic in here as it is!' Nanny moved on to an interesting crowd of gypsies, noblemen, and stagehands. Witches are curious by definition and inquisitive by nature. She moved in. "'Let me through! I'm a nosy person!' she said, employing both elbows. It worked, as this sort of approach generally does.
00:17:25
Speaker
There was a dead person lying on the floor."
00:17:29
Speaker
Oh, it's a Kiki. it says it's time for my my close-up, Mr. DeMille. Someone else is saying it's time for his close-up, too.
00:17:41
Speaker
Come here. If you're going to bother me, at least come show your face. Oh, yeah come show you all hello. ysh Look, it's your cousin. It must be dinner time.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yep. Okay. roll Look at those eyes. He's like, youe what did you say? Dinner time. Did you say the word dinner?
00:18:05
Speaker
I knew you could read my mind.
00:18:12
Speaker
So let's get to the second part yeah of what we're talking about today, which is the main question of our episode. How to be noble right in a grimdark world. Before even answering the question, I'm going to change the terms a little bit.
00:18:29
Speaker
So have you heard of the term plutocracy? I've heard of it. All right. In case you don't know what it is. it is. The term originates from the Greek words plutos, meaning wealth, and kratia, meaning rule. And it first appeared in English in the 1650s. So I would say we live in a plutocracy rather than a grimdark world. And I'm going to tell you why.
00:18:55
Speaker
Because, and maybe, you know, whoever readers of Grimdark can get in here and tell me that I'm wrong about the world. But I would say that currently we have plutocrats who are running the world in a human way. And I'm not talking about political parties or any one political party. I'm talking about all political parties in all countries. We have the wealth, though just the way the system works now is the wealth is the ruling rulers, the ruling class. Mm-hmm.
00:19:30
Speaker
So one of the ways to be noble, bright in this world is the very fact of realizing and thinking about the world as noble, bright. So going back to what you were saying about making those choices and is it inherently evil and it's pushing back, or is it just a choice we've made?
00:19:48
Speaker
focusing on those moments of nobility and brightness in the world and realizing that there is something larger and more powerful than the human corruption.
Choosing Goodness: A Force for Good
00:20:03
Speaker
Or every time someone's a human's making a choice and they choose something that leads to an evil outcome, it doesn't mean that the world itself is inherently evil.
00:20:13
Speaker
what do you think of that? yeah Well, you uno, you swip swapped me. So now i'm I'm digesting plutocracy. So to summarize, you're saying that instead of a grim, dark world, we live in a plutocracy. Yes.
00:20:29
Speaker
I think the world is inherently good and it's human decisions that bring about corruption or evil. And so in order to be noble, right, you just have to remember that and choose goodness over and over again. So in Hope Punk, you're choosing goodness over and over again as a rebellion against the inherent violence, cruelty, and corruption that is in our world. Whereas I see it as you're choosing goodness over and over again because you are connecting to something, a force that is inherently good. When we choose to be a physical being made of star stuff manifesting a tiny spark of life who can align to the rhythms and wisdoms of the galaxies sweeping overhead and the symbiosis of nature at our feet. We aren't toxically positive and we aren't hopelessly naive. We are aligning with a force far more ancient than the corrupt power within humanity. So to answer your question, I'd say we go back to Sam's speech, but this time the movie version where he says, there is beauty in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for.
00:21:40
Speaker
Okay. Well, I agree with you a little, but mostly I disagree a sense. Yes. How do you disagree? Because I disagree because I think what you just described there at the end is hope punk. And I think that in this world...
00:21:57
Speaker
Personally, like if we're bringing it into this, we're coming out of the fantasy and into the world that we are living in right now, I feel that it's really important for me to choose kindness and connection over and over and over again.
00:22:12
Speaker
But I also don't think I will be around to reap the benefit of that. I don't think that we're going to see in my lifetime the good guys win.
00:22:25
Speaker
I don't, you know, there's not going to be this big battle that I can go out and on the field and either lay down my life or win. It's going to be, if there is going to be change, it's going to take a long time and it's going to take everybody choosing to be Hope Punk.
00:22:41
Speaker
And, and I think that's what makes it hope. Like the punk is just like, and why I think Sam is Hope Punk is because he's not doing it for the gain personal gain or even the even really the belief that they can win. He's keeping on going because he just has to.
00:23:02
Speaker
So I think we both agree, but we disagree on whether it's Noble Bright or Hope Punk. Because I disagree on the no terms. You know what it is It's the timeline. It's the timeline. So Noble Bright is a much longer timeline.
00:23:18
Speaker
Hope punk, if I'm looking at a day to day, I'm hope punk. Because yeah, my action today is not going to get rid of the corruption that is in the world.
00:23:31
Speaker
But my actions over time and everyone else's actions and us choosing... to align with, I think an inherently good universe will make the difference.
00:23:43
Speaker
And that have the universe example. Oh, wait, well, I eight just finished. Okay. Okay. Because I think that's the force this, the, the, the ancient force of creation, whether it's, you know, whether you see it as God or a non-personified creative force is what wins in the end.
00:24:03
Speaker
And that is inherently
Star Wars: A Genre Analysis
00:24:05
Speaker
good. So that is why I say we are in a noble, bright world and you could be a noble, bright character, even if you don't think you'll see it. Even if you don't think in your lifetime, in the next 10 lifetimes,
00:24:20
Speaker
You personally will win. It's you're doing the right thing just as Sam does because it's what he has to do. It's it's like he says in the beginning, it's the the characters in the tales that matter just keep going.
00:24:36
Speaker
And I'm so glad that you mentioned the Force because the most perfect example of this is that the Star Wars original trilogy is traditional noble right. And I think the movie where they they zero in on the many bozins died to bring us this information, I think that movie is Hope Punk. So we're both right.
00:24:58
Speaker
All right. It's the long view or the day-to-day view. And my last point about the Hope Punk, the corruption and evil that will always seep in, that the originator of Hope Punk says always will seep in, and and you're saying is that's the maintenance of life and the human choices, I would say it seeps in because of other humans making a choice.
00:25:23
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And in that sense, yes, it's hope punk because at this stage of our evolution, there's always going to be someone in the world choosing to manifest unkindness. You know, they're going to choose there's the selfish motive.
00:25:41
Speaker
So in that sense, yes, we can't fight all of those people right now and stop them. So we have to do what we can as we go. In the long, long view, as we evolve,
00:25:54
Speaker
I hope and believe that at some point, less and less people will choose to be unkind to their fellow men through selfish acts. Amen.
00:26:06
Speaker
Speaking of noble bright and the brightness in the world, do you have a spark of the week? Spark week? ah No, thank you for asking. I had a terrible week.
00:26:21
Speaker
Not one little tiny spark. No, no, I've got a spark. I've got spark. It just can't be baking or cats. So just give me a minute. I mean, it can. I'll tell you my spark of the week, actually. um i work.
00:26:37
Speaker
I love, genuinely love the people I work with and they make me laugh so hard every single day. And I think I'm very lucky. And it is my spark of the week, spark of the day, spark of the year, spark of my life.
00:26:50
Speaker
Oh, that's lovely. It's amazing how much people around us can change everything. Yeah. And Mary, what is your spark of the week?
00:27:02
Speaker
My spark of the week is actually something I found. Music wise. So I'm trading you. I'll take the music spark. So this is a creator who actually, she isn't making the music she uses, but she finds human musicians to accompany illustrations and animations that she's made.
00:27:22
Speaker
So she's on YouTube as World of Mithrasa. And then her website is Mithrasa. This person is is thinking about the exact same kind of stuff as we are. Mithrasa is...
00:27:34
Speaker
is The name combines mythology and rasa, writ which means represents profound emotions evoked by storytelling and visual arts. Mithrasa serves as a catalyst, immersing patrons in a worlds brimming with drama, romance, and action through various mediums. So we'll put her link in the in the show notes here for you guys to explore.
00:28:00
Speaker
But that was... That was my spark, just finding another creator. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, very inspiring. Tell us what you think in the comments.
Living in Different Genres: A Reflection
00:28:10
Speaker
Do you agree? Do you disagree? What is the world to you? What genre are we living in?
00:28:16
Speaker
What genre are you living in? And if you don't like the genre you're living in, join my Kickstarter and be a part of the book launch. It's so much fun. It makes every genre world that you are in better.
00:28:31
Speaker
That was a smooth, smooth segue. Smooth pitch, baby. Thank you. All right. Whether you think we are in a hope punk world, noble bright or grim dark, Caroline and I are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.