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Terry Pratchett's Thud! Threads weaving, Plots Twisting, Whodunnit | Mythic Mirror Ep 20
28 Plays19 days ago
Jump in to the first half of Terry Pratchett's amazing murder mystery, fantasy extravaganza, Thud! If you love humor and depth you'll love this book.
Join us for the this Mythic Read! You can buy Thud at bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe
Get Mary's free short story and Seafarer's guide to her upcoming fantasy world at mary-c-kehoe.kit.com/e18855812b
Don't miss out on the Launch! Follow Mary's book Launch here and get Breaking Inlands before it hits the stores! kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
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Transcript
Introduction to Mythic Mirror Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
What happens when culture becomes compulsory, whodunit, and what
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live a magical and fulfilling life. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.
00:00:28
Speaker
And as you can hear, the ducklings are still in my office. They're getting quite big. They are now on the floor instead of my desk. And I took them outside today for a little bit. But it is still they're not quite ready for full time outside. So you you're graced with the duckling chirps a little longer.
Book Club: Terry Pratchett's 'Thud!'
00:00:50
Speaker
yay So this is a book club podcast episode where we are exploring Bye, Terry Pratchett. Do you want to start us off with...
00:01:03
Speaker
what you think of the book so far. This is your first read. This exciting. This is my first read, and I very much enjoyed reading a murder mystery. um What I really enjoy the most about Terry Pratchett is he's able to create such a high-stakes storyline while still you're chuckling to yourself every chapter. It's all very funny, but it's all very... You are also on the edge of your seat reading the next chapter and the next chapter and the next. um
00:01:35
Speaker
And it's an interesting one because I say chapter, there actually are not any chapters in this book. I don't know if you've noticed that. It just goes. So I started a list because this book, I mean, all of all of Terry Pratchett's books are like this, but there's so much going on. So I started a list of all the threads that we have in this book.
00:01:59
Speaker
And we can talk about each one of them individually, but This is what I came up with, and let me know if I've forgotten any. okay So we've got the Coombe Valley tension between the trolls and the dwarves.
00:02:10
Speaker
We've got vampires coming into the watch. A.E. Pessimol doing an audit of the watch. And as he asks, what is the economic use of Nobby?
00:02:21
Speaker
And then we have Nobby and Sergeant Colin with the painting theft. And then we have the murder of Ham Crusher, the introduction of the following darkness,
00:02:32
Speaker
The deep downers undermining the city, and what are they mining for? And then who is the troll's Mr. Shine? And then finally, mines as a dad.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yes. I don't think you missed any... I mean... I don't think. So maybe starting out with the biggest one, the one that's threading through all of these is the Coombe Valley anniversary.
Mystery of Coombe Valley
00:02:55
Speaker
Now, maybe I misread it, but i cannot really figure out what actually happened at Coombe Valley. I understand that there was a great fight between trolls and dwarves, but seemingly nobody really knows how it started or how it ended.
00:03:12
Speaker
Right. the Both sides think the other one started it And we don't know what really happened. Nobody, nobody alive today knows what really happened.
00:03:23
Speaker
Right. Which brings us to the painter who painted this great painting of the situation where nobody knows. they He said he found something at the spot that gave him the vision.
00:03:37
Speaker
Right. And then he got, and then he was worried he was a chicken. i am not a chicken. Right. He's gone pretty much insane, seemingly hearing voices and and And whatnot. Hearing voices from the 50-foot mural of the of the battle that he's created, which is supposed to be in a circular room so that when you stand, it you're completely surrounded by the battle. Right.
00:04:02
Speaker
So now that painting's gone. Right at the anniversary. Tensions are high. Yeah. So far, Vimes doesn't know about... He knows that there was a theft, but he's been focused on the murder of Ham Crusher, so he doesn't actually know what's been stolen yet.
00:04:18
Speaker
Right, so so then with all this tension already being enough, then we have our murder, the murder of Ham Crusher, whomst the dwarves claim was murdered by a troll.
00:04:31
Speaker
Obviously, this would be very bad news for all the tension, and it would likely tear the city apart if this is true and if it could gets out to the public, correct? Yes. So now, oh, this is another, well, I don't know that this is a thread, but it's part of the murder, is the whole idea that started with the deep downers who are the dwarves that live, who never come up to the surface, that are living by their own rules. So the idea that a murder has happened and we don't need to tell the watch about it. And then even dwarves in the watch are feeling like they can't talk about it because we're not supposed to be telling humans. So suddenly this isn't, we're all on the in the watch together. Its it's speciesism is is being reintroduced.
00:05:17
Speaker
Whereas, you know, earlier in the year, it had been all of them working together as they were all on the watch. Right, and I appreciate ah Sam Vines, who some refer to him as straight as an arrow because he is approached by his underlings who are asking if perhaps troll and troll could go on watch together and dwarf and dwarf and not mix the two.
00:05:41
Speaker
And he says, absolutely not, because then where does it end? And... um I mean, you just love Sam Bimes. Everything he says and everything he does, the way he tries to reason through things is he as he works on his temper um is a delight to read.
Sam Vimes: Family and Morality
00:06:00
Speaker
And then also, i don't know if it's too soon to get to this, but um the last thing you mentioned was him going home to read to his son. at 6 p.m sharp.
00:06:11
Speaker
And for one thing, obviously you and I talk a lot about ritual and routine and how important it is. And this is an excellent example of that. And he talks about as he's rushing home, how well would he notice if he was a minute late?
00:06:27
Speaker
He could not probably even be five minutes late without him noticing. But then what if it's, and but then that's, what's the difference between that and a half hour and an hour? And so it has to be six o'clock every night.
00:06:38
Speaker
um And it just really exemplifies, i think, the backbone and the heart of Sam Bimes, that he will do the right thing every time without fail.
00:06:51
Speaker
And also that that in the midst of all this madness and his city on the brink of tearing itself apart, he still has his priorities straight and these little small acts of love and kindness matter.
00:07:05
Speaker
then That part jumped out at me too. Not only for what you're saying, but also it not only exemplifies his priorities, but the way in which he rules himself, which is something that continually becomes important in this book. So you see it in this way that seems so domestic and almost not, you know, something that's totally separate from his his job with the watch and and in leading the watch. But it's it's intrinsically connected because that is how he he rules himself in everything of if you give a little, what's to stop you from giving a lot? it' you know If you take one little bribe, what's to stop you from what's the difference between a little bribe and a big bribe? Nothing. nothing
00:07:56
Speaker
And the fact that the way that day plays out. So the first, what are we? We are halfway through the book. That's all one day. and And so far he's missed the appointment that his wife said he had to be at with the family portrait artist and didn't think anything of it. He was on important work business. And then he misses a meeting with Vettinari.
00:08:22
Speaker
And still, that's you know what? um I'm busy. This is a murder and it's it's key to what's going on right now. Doesn't think anything of it. And then when he finds out it's 11 minutes to six and he's nowhere near home,
00:08:34
Speaker
Now it's panic mode. It's get a hold of the watch, have them meet him. the Desperate, commandeering carriages and crawling across boats to get home. Suddenly that matters quite a bit.
00:08:52
Speaker
yeah So far my favorite scene in the whole book. Mm hmm. And then he wakes up in a panic wondering where he is surrounded by all these
Joy and Anxiety: Coping Mechanisms
00:09:00
Speaker
fluffy animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I really felt for him in that part. How does it say in the book that Sam Vimes felt that a the universe would present him with a bill for his good fortune, that he's had this rise to wealth, that he's met the love of his life. They have a son together who he loves with his whole heart. And he just feels like this massive wave is coming to just wash all this goodness away from him and his life.
00:09:27
Speaker
And it reminded me of something we've talked about on here before of just like healing and how you think you're healing to deal with pain. But the truth is that you have to heal to deal with joy and to deal with comfort and to deal with peace. Because if your nervous system is dysregulated, you don't know what to do with those things. And you do feel like you're just always waiting for that other shoe to drop.
00:09:53
Speaker
And you don't feel that you deserve to keep it. Right.
00:10:00
Speaker
e And I ah felt some unhealed bits within myself because I was like, yeah, something bad is probably going to happen to him.
00:10:10
Speaker
He's probably going to lose everything. Yeah, I think many of us have those waves of panic right when everything's nice and good. And I will say, unfortunately, stories, TV, movies don't help with that. Yeah.
00:10:27
Speaker
Every time something's going great. For the plot to move forward, something bad has to happen. And they always make it extra good so that the bad is even worse. Every episode of Shrinking, I'm like, I'm too happy. I'm feeling too good.
00:10:43
Speaker
And then naturally, this is not a spoiler, but if you watch Shrinking, you understand. At the end of every episode, you're like, no, I'm sad. Very, very sad.
00:10:55
Speaker
So let's talk about the following episode.
00:11:00
Speaker
What do you think it is? um I'll tell you, but I want you to draw the symbol the way you think it is, how they describe it. I'll draw the way the symbol is, and the way I think it is, and we'll show each other. This is a test in reader comprehension and retention.
00:11:16
Speaker
he And drawing. Let's see yours.
00:11:22
Speaker
Oh, all right. If you are listening to the podcast, I drew it how it was described in the book. Oh, very interesting. So mine is a circle with two vertical lines through the whole circle. Yours only goes halfway through and they're diagonal. Diagonal, yeah.
00:11:40
Speaker
We'll have to go back and read the book. Or someone who's read the book, along with us, comment which one of us is correct. Give us comments with your pictures of what you think the following dark symbol looks like. Draw us the following dark. Help us. I say that as if that's cute. and It's <unk> an ominous sign. So I think we've met the following dark. i That little paragraph, all in italics, where this anamorphosis consciousness of darkness is in the city and moving through the city and sees it feels this opportunity
The 'Following Dark': Speculation and Analysis
00:12:16
Speaker
to seize on something which we don't know quite what it is, but then gets thrown back and slinks back into an alleyway.
00:12:24
Speaker
I don't quite know what threw it back other than perhaps Sam Bimes. Sorry, my cat's sitting on my lap and he just fell. Why? Because he's orange and he doesn't know how to just sit. Maybe sam Bimes reading to his son, maybe that act of love and ritual kicked it out. I think what it was seizing upon is seems, I think, maybe rage, maybe aggression, maybe resentment.
00:12:53
Speaker
That's the impression I got. I don't think any of those words were in that paragraph. There's something that you missed in that paragraph that I also missed the first time I read it. Do you want me to tell you what it is? Yeah.
00:13:05
Speaker
Are you sure? do want to just... No, I mean, I read it. just have bad reading comprehension. That's why I'm not a good part of it. no, find it very interesting that you missed it because when I first read it, I did too. And I didn't put it together until much later. And then rereading, was like, oh, it says right there.
00:13:21
Speaker
So in the beginning of that paragraph, it says that he is in a mind. And the mind looks like a city in dark and in the rain.
00:13:33
Speaker
Oh. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Ah, whose mind? That's the question. Interesting. Okay, so we've definitely met the following dark. We don't know whose mind it is currently in. in Correct.
00:13:52
Speaker
And what did Carrot say about it? It was interesting because Vimes put together the fact, because he's smart, the reason it all the deep downers who are the you know in in control of the dwarves are leaders of the doors. They're all surrounded by candlelight because they're afraid of the following dark.
00:14:13
Speaker
Mare. Is it when, okay, so Sam Vimes, when he's down, okay, maybe we're, get okay, slow down. Sam Vimes has to go into this mine where it's very hard to gain access because, but he has to find out if Ham Crusher is in fact dead, is in fact murdered, must review the scene. It's very difficult. The doors don't want to let him in. He manages to get in.
00:14:34
Speaker
um While they're giving him the runaround down there, he runs down a passageway and he cuts his hand and it hurts very badly and it gives him a headache.
00:14:46
Speaker
Perhaps that is when the following dark got in his mind. Am I getting this? Yeah. Am I nailing this? This is my first time reading. We're doing this together. This is a theory. We don't know.
00:14:57
Speaker
and um That's my theory. It's a good theory.
00:15:03
Speaker
Our guesses for this week are so far are snuff, men at arms, and feet of clay. ah Ah, all good guesses. The answer is...
00:15:16
Speaker
Men at arms. Nice work. So for this week, here is your Discworld Delight.
00:15:25
Speaker
Got any theories about that young man? Something golden brown and vicious was oozing out onto the street. from what was just possibly behind the mounds of the stuff, a shop.
00:15:38
Speaker
As the two wizards watched, there was a tinkle of glass, and the brown substance began to emerge from the second floor. Ridkley stamped forward and scooped up a handful, leaping back before the wall could reach him.
00:15:50
Speaker
He sniffed at it. Is it some ghastly emanation from the dungeon dimensions? said Ponder. Shouldn't think so. Smells like coffee, said Ridkley.
00:16:02
Speaker
Mm-mm-mm.
00:16:04
Speaker
Now this is one that i haven't read yet.
00:16:09
Speaker
So to your question about what happens when culture becomes compulsory. Yes. So one of the things we see about the deep downers in contrast to the dwarves that have lived in the city for a long time, one of the things in dwarf culture is that women don't give any signs that they're women.
00:16:31
Speaker
It's like dwarves just all are dwarves and you don't differentiate, ladies do not show in any way. and it's always a, what did he say? I think this is in a different book. He says, just through some careful questions, does reproduction ever happen? something oh hey i can yeah um But you see the prejudice of these deep downers who think the dwarves who, you know, the, the women dwarves, female dwarves who show their, any sign of femininity
00:17:05
Speaker
are becoming or anyone yeah yeah yeah because they don't they don't like that the werewolf or the vampire are presenting female here and they call the dwarves who are not following these strict rules that they've seen the light meaning they've been corrupted yeah that they've been blinded yeah i love the um another part of where he does something with language with the species that shows the different thought processes. So with dwarves, it's all like up and down is reversed. Dark and light is reversed.
00:17:43
Speaker
And then with the trolls, he has one line about um something far ahead in the past or something like that. I can't remember how he phrases it, but it's that tros trolls think that we are moving backwards through time.
00:17:59
Speaker
a e So the past is ahead of us. It's these little, just those little things that i I love. And how does he think of those things? And the thing that got me the most of, how did he think of this, is the Pork Futures Warehouse. I had to reread that several times because I was like, how do you think of this? How do you write this? I've had to read it, and I don't understand.
00:18:25
Speaker
Well, and what came first? So trolls think better in the cold. So when Vimes is meeting the troll... head mobster he meets him the the troll assigns the meeting place of inside of this warehouse now what came first the idea that trolls think best in the cold okay i'm gonna do it in a warehouse what is a fun disc world-esque twist on a warehouse oh pork futures that are like slowly coming into existence. Because if you trade and sell pork futures, they must exist somewhere. Because of Discworld logic.
00:19:08
Speaker
Right. Now, did that come? Which one came first? Did he think of the pork futures and then weave that in? I don't know. Who knows? Either way, brilliant. And I do love, like I said, speaking of pork, we have a high stakes situation going on So you are already feeling all this tension. And then when Fimes goes into the mine and finds out that they are digging far deeper than he could have ever imagined under his city, where you literally feel like they are undermining the city, where he feels like maybe it will all just collapse on itself. Yeah.
00:19:41
Speaker
and that So it's just sort of like you're already on edge and now you're like, oh God, it's all about to fall apart. Yeah, what are they doing and why? And so now you have a group of people who think they are in dwarf terms below the law.
00:19:59
Speaker
yes They don't follow Ankh-Morporkian law at all and they are creating an entire city underneath the city. It can't go well.
00:20:11
Speaker
No. And Vimes, who is always for the rights of man and the rights of property, saying that the law and the you know private property rights go all the way down.
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah, yes. And it sort of makes you think, you know, everything in moderation, including moderation, because you have here's Vimes bringing in the letter of the law to people who need it, in his opinion, maybe in my opinion as well. But then behind him, you have the accountant, the um auditor, over-auditing, over-bureaucratizing, over-analyzing. And it's like, well, we need law and order, but we don't need it.
00:20:50
Speaker
We don't need this much law and order. There has to be room for humanity. There has to be room for nuance.
Moral Balance: Sam Vimes' Perspective
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good point because the context of the situation Like, yes, he has, he has, Vimes has a complete unbreakable moral code that follows the law that
00:21:23
Speaker
he follows the law that keeps the city running, that keeps people safe, that keeps, you know, that protects people's rights. Mm-hmm. And...
00:21:34
Speaker
But then when it comes to things like petty theft, and you know, other people, like he wouldn't do it. He wouldn't take a petty bribe. But he understands that what Nobby brings to the force and the information and and where what he the world that he exists in and what he brings is worth Nobby stealing petty cash. And he never steals above $4.50. Mm-hmm.
00:22:01
Speaker
e he So it's like he holds himself to one moral code and understands other people's moral codes. And as long as they all can coexist peacefully, then he lets there be that balance.
00:22:18
Speaker
Right, and he's not perfect. I mean, he truly does not want a vampire on the watch. I don't know if we've really covered that yet, but throughout all this, he has been forced to put a vampire on the watch, and he's not happy about it.
Interspecies Tensions in 'Thud!'
00:22:31
Speaker
Nobody's happy about it, and it's really causing some strife in an already tense environment. What was his line? The problem with vampires is it's all right until it isn't. Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
And ah that is actually, I wanted to bring that up. Angla's reaction to having a vampire on the watch, I thought was very interesting because she's, so she's a werewolf and she's having, being forced to work with a vampire. And when we are inside her thoughts with vimes, it's about the vampire and and what the vampire is and could do he with Angla. It's about how she feels when she's around the vampire. It's very visceral.
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, and that in that she feels more like an animal. and they're you know, graceless and stupid and hairy. And it's like all the things that are put on to werewolves by vampires for centuries, she feels it all. Even if this vampire isn't thinking anything of that. She just, her natural...
00:23:37
Speaker
grace and and movement is like setting Angra's hair up. But I thought it was interesting because it really didn't have to do with the vampire. It had to do with her internal,
00:23:49
Speaker
ah yeah dialogue yeah right which brings us to you know back to Coombe Valley of just this story that has become an identity which has become this resentment that's that has become culture that it's just like none of it's true but you feel it so viscerally this belief system and how many of the watch are quitting for personal reasons but it's all trolls and dwarves
00:24:20
Speaker
Because they don't want to have to face down a dwarf in defense of a troll fellow watch person or the vice versa.
00:24:32
Speaker
Or you know try to break up trolls and dwarves fighting. Because then if you're not with us, you're against us. When, again, months ago, a year ago, it it wasn't that wasn't an issue. So it's like it's not always...
00:24:49
Speaker
a part of the culture until it's like drummed up and reminded and, and the event happens. And it's like that the, the, it's like a magnet just draws, draws the the hate magnet that draws everyone in.
00:25:04
Speaker
Which you see it in today, obviously, you know, with when, when an event happens and people get scared and it's like you, you're drawn but into us versus them and in these camps and the narrative is always trying to push you know, a group against another group.
00:25:23
Speaker
For a final question, Carolina. Yes. Vimes' mind is the city at midnight in the rain. What would your mind look like to the following dark?
00:25:36
Speaker
Oh. What a good question. Mine's probably a coffee shop and a book shop. Oh. That's very sweet.
00:25:49
Speaker
probably also raining yeah i like that yeah what's yours probably the ocean i was gonna say a probably the ocean for you on in by all the above still waters run deep eh yes
00:26:13
Speaker
I reserve the right to change my answer next week, but that's what I came up with naturally. I like it. Do you think a troll did this? Oh, no. Actually, that's nice because I don't actually remember who did it.
00:26:27
Speaker
And do you have any theories on who Mr. Shine is? Okay, those are my two last questions. I do not think a troll did it, and I don't remember who, so that's exciting. And Mr. Shine, I do remember bit more about.
00:26:44
Speaker
Not who or what's coming, but about the mythology behind. So, so far we've just seen some graffiti and Vimes has asked the mobster about it and he kind of like passed it off as if it was just some, oh, you know, folklore.
00:27:05
Speaker
So we don't know why this graffiti is appearing at this time of trouble. And I think the final puzzle piece that we have not added, well, not the final puzzle piece, but just an important part that we haven't added yet is that there, we do know that there was a troll at the scene of the crime that is described at the murder We do know who that troll is. However, he, I believe, was on drugs.
00:27:34
Speaker
Slab? Correct? And he doesn't he doesn't even really know what happened. He just knows something bad happened and he needs to lay low because he was there. e But I think we as the readers know he didn't do it.
00:27:49
Speaker
The dwarves' reaction to it, we see, is one of the first scenes. It might even, i don't know if it is the the first scene, One of the first scenes of the book is these voices in the dark, which you you realize are dwarves, talking about the body and the murder and that, you know, this is dwarf affair and the watch doesn't need to be involved.
00:28:14
Speaker
And clearly this is what happened, right? And it feels very suspicious. like Yes. Yes. if you really thought like the troll that you hate, you know, the the people, the species that you hate killed a community leader, wouldn't you want your vengeance and wouldn't you want to sick the watch on them? And, you know, and they haven't, the deep downers haven't really shown any impetus to curtail dwarves hating trolls.
00:28:47
Speaker
So it I don't feel like that's their reason for trying to hide it at first. No. Yeah, something very fishy here and we're going get to the bottom of it.
00:28:58
Speaker
And why is the following dark there? he a Carrot seemed to talk about, or Carrot was talking about it that it didn't even, it might not even have to do with the murder.
00:29:11
Speaker
He was just saying that the mine is a very unhappy place. And like, he felt like something serious was going on even beyond the murder because that this sign was appearing. Right.
00:29:22
Speaker
Opposite of unhappy and the following dark. What was your spark of the week? So my spark of the week was the ducklings today. i When I took them outside, they all bedded down right next to me were laying down. And I like to think it's because they like me, but I know it's it's because they wanted to be in the shade. So they were in my shadow. But it was very cute with all of the first, you know, they're a little scared. And even though I'm the one who feeds them all the time, I also had to shove antibiotics down their throats so their relationship became a little rocky but it was just so adorable having them just come up and trust me enough to lay there and you know peck at my shirt and everything totally yeah cute that's very cute yeah just sitting in the sun with my ducklings yeah
00:30:11
Speaker
Sounds perfect. How about you? Proper Beatrix Potter. Oh, yes.
Carolina's Comedy Night Experience
00:30:16
Speaker
um I went to amateur comedy night this week. And I have to say, because i've I've talked to people about this, and most people are like, amateur comedy makes me want to crawl out of my skin. i have to sit on my hands. Like, it's so awkward. And it is. i do admit that's something I love about it. And I just feel like there was something in the air. I felt like every comedian was, like, pretty on their game. They all did really well.
00:30:43
Speaker
i laughed very hard. I'd say good, clean fun. It wasn't clean, but it was fun. Are you going to perform? No. god ah People ah have asked me this.
00:30:57
Speaker
People being bae. But I read this once where someone said online, they were like, if you want revenge on your ex, don't feel like you have to get back at them. Just convince them they're funny enough to do comedy. And i just think he's trying some long sort of revenge plan against me.
00:31:17
Speaker
All right. Well, about sums it up? What
Episode Conclusion and Future Topics
00:31:21
Speaker
about sums it up? So we will be doing topic-centered episode next, and after that, we will be finishing Thud. So if you haven't read it yet, you have time to catch up. It is a just delightful book, deep and funny and mysterious. It's a great read.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah. So come on and join us. You can get the book in the link in our show notes if you don't have it already. And if you want to read a short story and haven't read mine yet, it is also in the link.
00:32:00
Speaker
You really ought to read it. It's brilliant. Love it. Thank you. And as always, we are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is