Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Kingdom of Copper Ending: Redemptions, Betrayals and Spoilers
24 Plays12 days ago
Mary and Carolina chat about character arcs, motives, and choices. Come along and explore side characters' stand out moments and devastating sacrifices that never should have been.
Be a part of the early release of Mary's upcoming fantasy novel about a resilient young woman and forgotten magic in a world of lost gods where a gas lamp society faces ancient lore. kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
Have a favorite fantasy read you would like us to explore? Tell us in a comment!
If you enjoy the show please give us a rating and share with a friend, we'll be eternally grateful!
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
When does loyalty become a weakness? What happens when healers harm? Can peace be an option?
Introduction to Mythic Mirror Podcast
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live meaningful and fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.
Focus of the Episode: 'Kingdom of Copper' Ending
00:00:30
Speaker
And today we're talking about the end of Kingdom of Copper.
00:00:35
Speaker
So go ahead, go read it, come back to us, or stick along and find out what happens. Yeah, stick along. Come along, stick around, and come along. All right, Carolina, what are your
Themes of Sacrifice and Redemption with Nisreen
00:00:48
Speaker
first thoughts? My first thoughts were that this book was really kind of the unsung hero's moment to shine. I feel like we got to see a lot of development of side characters that, you know, so far we've talked a lot about Nari, we've talked a lot about Ali Zaid and Dara and we've talked a little bit about the other characters um and there's one moment in particular and I'm going to jump right into spoilers if that's okay with everybody everybody all right nobody said anything so oh thank god the sort of the book of redemption arcs um
00:01:24
Speaker
Nisreen, I felt, not that Nisreen really needed one, but it broke my heart when they're in the parade and she's talking about the Shafit healer and asking her to bring her to the hospital for the night, her and her family.
00:01:42
Speaker
Obviously, Nisreen knows to keep them safe. Nari doesn't know, but she's delighted. She's like, wow, people are coming around on the Shafit. Life is so good. My hospital's open. I'm having a great time in this parade.
00:01:55
Speaker
and I'm just reading it and I it's just heartbroken because you know that i don't know it was just this moment of for me redemption for Nisreen because so many people in this book are willing to sacrifice the innocence for the greater good and that was just a moment of her trying not to trying to save some innocence trying to also save a healer that she knows will be very needed And yeah, and she's a Deva and she's going out of her way to save a Shafet.
Can Nari and Ali Achieve Peace?
00:02:29
Speaker
So that's a whole other layer of showing that what Nari is doing would actually work if these other forces, if these other power hungry people stopped manipulating events it what she's doing could actually work. So this goes to the the our last or one of our questions, the last question of our first questions.
00:02:53
Speaker
yes could Is peace actually possible? And I think in the long run, what Nari and Ali were doing would have worked.
00:03:06
Speaker
Yes, there would have been, like a Kava said, after he manipulates events to create a riot, says that it would have happened anyway. and and And I think, yes, there still would have been moments in like bubbles of violence because you have this hate that's just,
00:03:24
Speaker
built in generation after generation. But each time that you don't retaliate with yet another brutality, it fizzles out a little bit more, fizzles out a little bit more and slowly you would get to peace, especially with how long these people live for.
00:03:40
Speaker
You have a greater amount of time to try and create peace. I think that's, you know, in In our world, it's one of the hard things is you only have so long to live. So if you have, and we've seen it so many times in history where you have a leader who is trying to bring unity and peace and then you know the next faction takes over after that king dies or the pharaoh or whoever it is and they you know go back to the way things were and it gets reversed so quickly. Right and Ghassan just meets power with power. People try to attack him with power, he meets them with power, he will always have more power.
Nari's Negotiation Tactics
00:04:20
Speaker
Nari is super interesting because she's the first person who has really taken sort of the tactic of negotiating with him.
00:04:27
Speaker
And maybe it's because she's the first person who has had enough leverage to do so. You know, I don't know that it would have succeeded if other people had done that, but she has made greater strides with Ghassan in two books than other people have in thousands of years. And yeah, I think it would have worked, especially when you see Maniza, on the other hand, who is just like
Dara's Internal Struggle and Plea for Peace
00:04:50
Speaker
him.
00:04:50
Speaker
The same tactics, the same manipulation, the same violence. And it just and what's very upsetting is that Dara sees it, too, and he still can't go against his programming.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that moment. I was it was so good for Dara's soul to actually when he actually confronts her and begs her not to do this thing. I was so relieved because I was afraid he was just going to hold it inside the whole time.
00:05:21
Speaker
and at And at least he tried. i mean, he still broke and she still completely manipulated him in that situation. But I was so glad that he tried just just for his own soul.
00:05:36
Speaker
i think you could take down take that scene and just break it down with how she manipulates him and what point for point she goes at him with. And it's, it's just so tragic and and disgusting to watch how she's doing it. and And she's doing it with so much, like he thinks she really cares.
00:05:56
Speaker
And maybe a part of her does, but she's weaponizing her own care, if that makes sense. She might really care about him. She might really care about her people and the soldiers, but it but she uses all of that to to get her way, to get the power that she
Moral Ambiguity in Dara's Relationships
00:06:13
Speaker
wants. Right, and I think that's an interesting, there's a distinct before and after when he is befriending Abu Saif and sort of has this naivety in dealing with him. Not totally, I mean, he watches him very carefully.
00:06:29
Speaker
he makes sure that He makes sure that he doesn't have Zulfikar that can burst into flame. While he's training his troops, but there is still this level of naivety where he truly believes that they are becoming friends because he's an old soldier and he's an old soldier.
00:06:45
Speaker
And it's because I think that is born in the fact that he truly believes he is in the moral right. that all good people would be on his side because he is on the side of good. And i think it takes seeing Maniza's magic go after the Giziri relics to realize that this war will never end and that he that there maybe isn't a moral good side anymore.
00:07:13
Speaker
Right. And when Abu Saif, in his eyes, betrays him, but Abu Saif says to him in my position, you would have done the same thing. Like, you think we don't know what she's doing with our blood. You think we don't know what she's doing. Like, we know.
00:07:28
Speaker
The best we can do is try to, we know we're dead. The best we can do is try to save our fellow men back home. And then are they're just killed in this absolutely disgusting, brutal way that Maniza can't control, doesn't care to.
00:07:44
Speaker
And he, you know, that, so that the the before and after, sorry to ramble a bit there, but just ah before where he thinks he's in the moral good, thinks Abu Saif is truly his friend. And then the after of he realizes this war will never end. That if she comes in and attacks the city with that weapon, that it will just go on for a thousand more years.
00:08:06
Speaker
Right. And he has to get himself to believe that this will be the end of it or else what is it all worth? What is it all for? So even when he absolutely hates what he's doing, he hates that he's letting Ifrit into the city, that, you know, ghouls are coming into the city and this poison that's killing innocent people. And he's ah on that side, even in the midst of it, he hates it. And he's still telling himself, he's giving himself the reasons which,
00:08:35
Speaker
goes into, ah you know, I think multiple religions have the doing the warning against doing evil so that good may come.
00:08:45
Speaker
And, and what that is, you know, the, the, what's the other line, the phrase, you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, or, you know, Jesus said the road that seemeth right, or the way that seemeth right.
00:09:00
Speaker
And, and so it's this idea of if you can mentally convince yourself of the reasons, here are all my reasons for why this bad thing has to happen, then you can jigsaw your reasoning into making it look like you're the good guy.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I was discussing this actually last night um with my dad talking about how do you, so what is the defense against that? If we can, if our brain can convince ourselves that that we're on the good side, no matter what it is that we're doing, or no matter what it is that the the person we've sworn allegiance to is doing.
Dara and Ali Zaid: Loyalty and Moral Dilemmas
00:09:45
Speaker
how How can we check ourselves to make sure we are we are on the good side? Even when we, you know, obviously we all think we are, but are we really?
00:09:56
Speaker
and And I think I mentioned this last week or the last time we talked about this book is that Dara has put a person over principle. And so i I think we see this clearly here where,
00:10:11
Speaker
Manizah is betraying the very principle that the Nahids were meant to uphold. And yet he's still holding on to his allegiance because he doesn't want to break his oath.
00:10:26
Speaker
And you see this in in ancient Greece too with um with the Trojan War when Agamemnon has betrayed his oath And has, in the very beginning, in the very beginning of his launching against the the Trojans, he kills an innocent.
00:10:47
Speaker
So right there, he's become, he's broken his oath of what he is as ah as a good king, as someone, as a good leader that you are going to follow. So at that point, the soldiers who were honorable should have been able to say, hey, you've broken your oath to us because now you are dishonorable and left and not had to have been part of that 10-year war.
00:11:11
Speaker
it's the same thing with Dara, where it's like, when the leader has broken their oath to the principles that they're supposed to be upholding, then these oaths, all the oaths to that person should be null and void because they've broken it already.
00:11:26
Speaker
Right. And that's where you see the the real divide, because already we've talked about how Dara and Ali Zaid are on a similar path where this absolute devotion, this religious fervor for what they believe in pushes them However, Ali Zaid was brought up to be loyal to his father and whoever is the king.
Ali Zaid's Defiance and Moral Integrity
00:11:48
Speaker
But the moment in the book that gave me chills is when Ghassan orders them to go through the Shafiq neighborhoods and burn them to the ground and kill everyone. And Ali Zaid puts out the message, Ghassan al-Qahtani has asked you to kill all these people.
00:12:04
Speaker
Zaid al-Qahtani is asking you to not. yeah And that is like, I got chills just saying it. And they're like, they're singing it. And he has the I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the word.
00:12:18
Speaker
The holy men that people trust to sing it um so that they know that the message is true and coming from the source. and And they protect them and they don't kill anyone. And it shows that a situation can be contained without bloodshed. And it also is the moment that Alize puts his morals above his father, above his allegiance, and above, honestly, caring for his own life.
00:12:43
Speaker
And Nari does that as well. When she realizes that this horrific poison is coming from someone within her own tribe.
00:12:53
Speaker
And she still says, you know, Montadier asks, are you still on our side? She says, I'm on whatever side is not using that, you know, like. when Whoever is using this poison, I'm not on their side.
00:13:07
Speaker
And, you know, she is absolutely against the killing of innocents, no matter who it is. And then when she finds out it's her mother, she still is against it. You know, this is her chance to be with her. with her brother, with her mother, with Dara, and not be under, well, she'd be under her mother's control, but she might not believe that at the time. She could have convinced herself that this was the happy ending she'd been looking for. But she didn't because she knew what had just been done, and she could not align with it.
00:13:39
Speaker
And I do love that so far everybody has misread her thinking that they can use the fact that she is Shafiq against her
Maniza's Manipulation of Dara
00:13:47
Speaker
when she doesn't care. shes yeah Yeah. Okay.
00:13:50
Speaker
um And then also just like, and then the mirroring between Maniza and Nahi where, I really love this where I like just delight in magic systems where you know Nari you've talked they've talked in the book extensively about how she can feel the body she can like sense the nerve endings and the spine and the heart palpitations and then when she turns that magic up to the city and she can feel it like it's a body and she uses it to heal it when she puts out the fire
00:14:21
Speaker
I love that, and I also love that even in the midst of violence, she's using healing powers to continue to heal, whereas Maniza has twisted this ability to heal into this ability to cause utmost violence and death and destruction. Mm-hmm.
00:14:43
Speaker
And Nari had a moment, remember, when she got so angry at Montadir, Yes. And she had that moment where she could feel that power and she could feel that that part of herself that could go there.
00:14:57
Speaker
And and, you know, Nisreen says, I think you should leave. And he does. And she's shaking and she says, I i could have killed him. And she's not happy about it. Right. That's a moment where she doesn't see that power and go, oh, this is a tool I could use. This is you know this is a way I could get my way.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah. Unlike. Which I still, I still have my doubts about whether Maniza is her mother. You do. I do. Because at the end, now she could be talking, and I think we're led to believe she's talking about the father when she says you have his eyes. Mm-hmm. When she introduces herself, she says, i my name is Maniza. And then it's Ollie who says, your mother.
00:15:42
Speaker
So I don't know. i I mean, some of this might just be because I'm hoping that that she's the brother's daughter. yeah That would make more sense. I also, I'll tell you what I think. I think Maniza killed her own brother.
00:15:58
Speaker
I'm worried about that myself because when asked, when Dara asked what happened to him and if he was still alive, she said he tried a magic he shouldn't have, which makes me think, did he try to stop you? Uh-huh.
Speculation on Nari's Parentage
00:16:10
Speaker
Yeah. And even every time she talks about it, she it's very vague. She talks about looking at his dead body and feeling sad, but she doesn't talk about how she survived the Ifrit or anything else.
00:16:23
Speaker
Yeah. and And it's very we still don't know how Nari ended up orphaned in Egypt, thinking she's human. So she started having some memory of living in Cairo with a mother,
00:16:40
Speaker
But I don't know that it's Maniza. I don't know. Maybe it is, but but why would she be have been in Cairo? Yeah, why would Maniza have been in Cairo? No, I don't think it's Maniza. I think it's maybe her real mom.
00:16:54
Speaker
That's what I'm wondering. And that her dad is the brother. That's what I'm thinking, too. That's what I think, too. my bet. I do think Jamshed is hers.
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah. So Jamshed is her cousin. Right. I would say. Which makes sense as to why Maniza, when she, one of one of the attacks and manipulations she uses against Dara is to tell him that Jamshed is a Nahid and you look what you did to him. You almost killed my son.
00:17:28
Speaker
And she turns it around right away. Like he's saying, you're doing this terrible thing and I can't be a part of it. And she says, how could you possibly look what you've already done to me? And it's like, what are you talking about? And then she goes on to say, you know, you almost killed my son because you let your care for my daughter get out of hand or something like that. And it's like that also, i mean, it felt,
00:17:52
Speaker
it It felt disingenu disingenuous um anyway because it you know she's manipulating him. But also was like, okay, so you're really upset about Jamsid getting hurt.
00:18:03
Speaker
h Are you upset about Nari getting hurt? I don't, it doesn't seem like you care as much. And you've had just as much ah interaction with the, you know, the two of them supposedly. And just in the way Maniza talks to her about being Shafiq and being like, we won't tell anyone. I'm like, I don't think this woman had a baby with a human. yeah She does not, she wouldn't look at a human as ah worthy anything.
00:18:31
Speaker
Right. And because she sees everything in terms of power and lineage. So she would never, what would a human give her in terms of power or alliance?
00:18:45
Speaker
Nothing. So yeah, I don't see that happening. nothing um nothing me um which was kind of super interesting to find out that she is because we were talking we didn't know last time if it was a marid curse making her look shaffey or if she really was and it's much more interesting to me that she is That there is a Marid curse?
00:19:12
Speaker
No, there is not. she She is Shafi. Well, we know she's Shafi, but then I thought Maniza said you're beautiful even with the Marid curse. Oh, yeah. But then, and like she wouldn't be saying that just for Ali because I think she's assuming he's about to be killed.
00:19:29
Speaker
But so she is Shaphat, but then is there also a curse? Because unless she knows, did Maniza know that the king had spread that lie? So she was continuing it, but then why say it to just her? I don't know. I was confused. I don't trust these people.
00:19:45
Speaker
I don't trust them either. And I don't like half of them. ah Speaking of though, i will say speaking of redemption. I know exactly where you're going. I know exactly where it's next on my notes.
Muntadir's Redemption Journey
00:20:00
Speaker
Let's say it at the same time. Muntadir. Muntadir. He just broke my heart with, but in a good way of, you know, when he says, when he saves Ollie's life and in turn, you know, Ollie had died saving him and now,
00:20:17
Speaker
Montadir is dying, saving Ali, and he says, I couldn't watch you die again. It's like, oh, God. But as to me, where his redemption arc starts is actually in the weapons closet after he embarrasses Ali and they fight. And I just loved that part because that really just felt like two brothers.
00:20:40
Speaker
Where it's just like, you just watch these tensions build and then they just have to you just have to fight it out. Yeah. And then their sister finds them. was just like very classic sibling dynamics. It was so good. The two younger ones are plotting and the oldest one is just like, oh my God, you're going to get us all killed. You're plotting a coup in a weapons closet. I wish I wasn't here. Yeah. Can I drink this? Yeah. He's looking at the weapons polish and like, maybe I can drink this.
00:21:08
Speaker
And I, that part, funnily enough, was like the most heartwarming part of the book series so far for me, where you just you really, really felt the sibling and family yeah dynamics.
00:21:20
Speaker
It was the first time since the very beginning of the first book that all three of them were together and actually just talking as siblings instead of all, of you know, the father and the politics and everything. Yeah.
00:21:36
Speaker
So it was, i was so terrified that someone was going to walk in and hear them. I feel like rereading it, then I would just be able to enjoy the dynamic. But you're right. It was, it was so much just, oh, they're brothers and a sister and they're all just talking to each other like brothers and sister.
00:21:57
Speaker
he Speaking of dynamics, familial dynamics, friendship dynamics, it, Sorry, I meant to say this earlier when we were talking about Dara and his naivete.
00:22:11
Speaker
After they attack the Citadel, and he's upset when he finds out Ali has killed so many of his soldiers. And he's like, you know, because he's grown this personal attachment. But we as the reader have just read Lubade's horrible death.
00:22:27
Speaker
And which in all of like reading that death hit me. very hard. um Like, out of all books, that's like top ten of the worst.
00:22:40
Speaker
Because you think he you think he drowned, and then you're like, oh my god, he made it. You're so relieved. yeah and Just to be killed in the most cruel way by the most cruel creature. Yeah. um And you're just like, Dara, are you dumb?
00:22:55
Speaker
Like so many innocent, beautiful people have died. So you've killed, you killed the Citadel. That is where Ali was raised. but That is more his family than the royal family.
00:23:06
Speaker
And you're upset that he retaliated? And not even retaliated. Like help it's a a war. Right. Like, what did you want? What did you expect?
00:23:18
Speaker
Right, and like he but he knows that some of his soldiers are going to die. like He knows that going in, and he feels personally responsible for each death, and he wants to keep as many alive as possible.
00:23:32
Speaker
But yeah, you can't take it personally when someone does it, because it it's not, it's like, yes, it's murder. I think every, you know, in war, it's still killing people and it's still horrible. And that was something Nari, when she sees him losing it because of what they, he killed these the those soldiers because of everything that had happened, plus seeing what they'd done to his dad after his dad was already dead.
00:24:00
Speaker
And he loses it. And she's looking at him right going, is this is this how Dara was made? Is this what happened to him? He saw his family all killed.
00:24:10
Speaker
be you know And in he lost everything in his people. and And so she sees that mirroring too. I was thinking about that too with Dara. Where... It's like he takes on every despicable act so that it doesn't have to stain someone else's soul. He even tried to, even though he absolutely thinks this poison is horrible, when he thinks it's only going to kill the king and a few of his counselors or guards or whoever's in the room, he says, let me do it instead of Kava.
00:24:45
Speaker
Because he knows it's horrible. and And whenever he sees a horrible choice, he's like, well, I've already stained my soul. I'm already the scourge. I'm already the monster. Let me do this so that someone else doesn't have to become a monster. And it's such a weird sacrifice because it's it's like to to everyone else, to Like Montadir, when he sees him, he's like, of course it's you. You come back to life and the first thing you do is start another war. So it's like to them, they see it as he's choosing to become, to be the monster because he likes it.
00:25:21
Speaker
Whereas he sees it as a self-sacrifice where he doesn't, if it's like, if it has to be done, let me do it so that no one else has to bear the weight of it. So even when he's doing something horrible, you still feel for him.
00:25:36
Speaker
I don't agree with him. And I think it's what drives him because he's like, if this doesn't work, then everything I've done is for nothing. And I am just a monster. I don't think we're done talking about Muntadir's redemption. That was just an insertion in there. um Yes. So it starts in the weapons closet. And then obviously with him.
00:25:57
Speaker
but And what does he say? He's like, my short reign will have been a success if I can get the two most stubborn people in Devabad to do something they don't want to, or however he says it when he's trying to get Ali and Nari to leave him. And you also see the beautiful sort of friendship between himself and Nari where he, you know, he has a small look of apology in his eye, I think, because he knows that Nari knows that Jamshed is his true love.
00:26:23
Speaker
And he's asking her to say goodbye to him for him. And mean there's no, like, malice from Nari. There's no, like, she knew the whole time.
00:26:35
Speaker
yeahp
00:26:37
Speaker
And then I was almost upset when, big spoiler for the end of the book, all the magic in Davidabad goes away and Muntadir does not die.
00:26:51
Speaker
And I was like, oh, no. Like, what are they going to do to him? Yeah, I was like, this sucks, but like, he's keeping good spirits. He's cracking jokes.
00:27:03
Speaker
He's telling Dara to go to hell, trying to give him directions that way. And then he lives. And I'm like, i it's not that I wanted you to die. I didn't.
00:27:15
Speaker
But I don't want you to be a prisoner to Maniza either. No. Ghassan's son of prison.
Zainab's Character Development
00:27:21
Speaker
No. Right. So let's talk about Zainab for a moment. So right now we've, we're left with her in the city. And I loved the moment when you find out that Akisa has been teaching Zainab how to fight. And she's saying like, what are you people doing? Like no Ghaziri woman should ever be this old and never have held a weapon. What is happening here? We know from earlier that Zainab has talked about being a child of two tribes and how she doesn't feel accepted by either one.
00:27:52
Speaker
And so this female friendship, I know there's there's a whole thing of, you know, books that have female friendship that doesn't have to do with a man. And this one just happens. And it's not even, you know, it's not made a point of, it's just you see this one comment and you're like, what? This whole thing has happened off screen and it's amazing.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah, that this woman sees her and it totally accepts her as Gazziri and is... fixing what she sees as a complete betrayal you know what have you been doing why doesn't she know anything i've been making up for your mistake yes and she doesn't blame her either she's not like oh you spoiled princess you don't know anything it's like oh no they've held this back from you let me let me show you what to do Yeah.
00:28:40
Speaker
And then all three siblings, they're like true grief when they find out their dad is dead and you feel it and you're also sad. and And I think it's because you, in this book, have also seen Muntadir sort of turning into his father.
00:28:56
Speaker
And so you're like, I can see how he wasn't always this way. I can see how he was made this way. Mm-hmm. And, um, sorry, that was not about Zainab enough, but it was just a stream of thought.
00:29:13
Speaker
But it's true. It's, it's part of, you know, in the very beginning, when we first started these books, and we talked about what if the evil king is an evil or he isn't the prototype of evil king. And it is, it's complicated. Yes. He uses terrible means to control people.
00:29:36
Speaker
But that isn't all of who he is. So they are mourning losing their dad. Yeah. And they might not be, losing they're not mourning losing the king.
00:29:49
Speaker
You know, they had been talking about how he slipped. He's not a great king. And what can we do about it? But they weren't talking about killing him. They didn't hate him. They didn't see him as the end all be all evil. It was just how can we take power away from him?
00:30:03
Speaker
Right.
The Seal of Solomon's True Power
00:30:04
Speaker
You know, and Montadier is the only one who knows that you can't without killing him and then taking his heart. Yes. Which is probably why he's the most jaded of them.
00:30:16
Speaker
Right. And the most like, who no, we're not we can't do this. And to that point, I did really enjoy that Nari and Ali get the seal and are both like, I don't want it. You put it on.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah. yeah ah All these power hungry people are just like honing in on them from every angle. And they're like, no, I don't want it. I don't want it. Yeah. Do you think Maniza was lying? Do you think that the seal would have killed Nari?
00:30:45
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know either. Because Ollie makes a very good point that it's Solomon's seal. Solomon is human. So I kind of lean toward...
00:30:57
Speaker
it that it wouldn't and we've already seen seen them be wrong about this blood purity thing time and time again where they're like well you lose your powers if you work on the shafi and she's like yeah she's like she knows humans and heal them all the time so shut up years for 20 years or however old she is Right. And so she already knows that some of this is just not true. It's just this passed down prejudice. Yeah. Right. And it would be interesting to find out when it started, like who. first slipped that in, you know, interpreted like when she's talking to the priest and she says, I'm not going against the holy books. It's just a different interpretation.
00:31:36
Speaker
When, when did that interpretation insinuate its way in, which is another thing you see with a lot of a good leaders or good Kings or good priests in history. is even, or, you know, good people who have started religions. You you know, it it starts with one thing and then it splits off and splinters with all these different interpretations where people want to use these words of a wise one for their own means. So they interpreted it with this slant or this or that. yeah and then it And then, you know, well-meaning people come up believing that interpretation being the original. And that's how you get
00:32:19
Speaker
All of it. That's how you get ants. You want ants? how you get ants.
00:32:25
Speaker
I don't get ants. You've never seen that TV show. Sorry. No. yeah ah We'll talk about that after. Okay. I will not sully your podcast with naming the TV show that's from.
00:32:39
Speaker
Oh, great. It's our podcast. Our podcast. I'm the leader. I'm the leader. Now, you have a question about Ifrit. And before we get into that, should we do Discworld Delight?
00:32:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:33:00
Speaker
All guesses were the same guess. And that's the truth. And that is the truth. That is indeed it It had too many hints in it.
00:33:12
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to read this, and I'm going to skip names. so Smart. Because I would give it away.
00:33:24
Speaker
Sorry, he said. I can't get the hang of treacle sandwiches either. I reckon the interface is moving at a slow walking pace, said the other one, licking his fingers absentmindedly.
00:33:37
Speaker
Can't you stop it by magic? He shook his head. Not me. It squashed me flat. he said cheerfully. What'll happen to you when it arrives, then? Oh, I'll go back to living in Wall Street.
00:33:49
Speaker
I mean, I never will have left. All this won't have happened. Pity, though. The cooking here is pretty good, and they do my laundry for free. How far away did you say it was, by the way?
00:34:02
Speaker
Let's hear about the Zifrit. Yeah. So I felt a little bamboozled after Dara does his wind dancing, for lack of a better term, when he becomes nothing.
00:34:13
Speaker
He's dancing on the wind, which I don't know. People, I don't know. This doesn't count as a spoiler, but I think... That was foreshadowing into Dara's ultimate.
00:34:27
Speaker
That is the only time in this book so far that we've read where he has felt at peace and joyful. And so I feel like, i don't know, that's my thought. I felt like that's going to be his ultimate journey.
00:34:40
Speaker
And that's my hope. And that's now his hope too. Probably, yeah. I mean, he says maybe when this is all over. You know, I could... Yeah, I hope it is. But... So he comes back from that, and an Ifrit is there. And he has conversation with the Ifrit. Which Ifrit?
00:35:00
Speaker
Vizoresh. Yes. So he has a conversation with Vizoresh that, for the first time in this book, I've been like, maybe there's more to the Ifrit. Maybe they're not the total bad guys.
00:35:13
Speaker
And then when they killed Lubed, I was like, nah. And then also when he wanted to enslave Ali... And just like, it's just, it's just, I like that in the book she uses the word that the Ifrit are the anathema to everything that Dara holds dear. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
Yeah. Snap out of it. It's one of those things where, because they talk about the Ifrit introduce the past through a different view of that they didn't get in trouble for dealing around with humans. They got in trouble for having a war with the Marid over human worship.
00:35:51
Speaker
And that human worship often looked like sacrifice. So... In fact, it always was in some way. And the question is were all the Davids doing that at the time?
00:36:07
Speaker
like And did all the Ifrit who... get away from, you know, not accept solimon's Solomon's call, ah were they all doing that? Or were some of them just like, well, I don't want to do that either. Like, I don't do that, but I don't want to do that.
00:36:22
Speaker
So it's like, is is there a variation within the Ifrit? Are they all the same? So far, they've all been, we've seen cruelty from all of them that we've met.
00:36:33
Speaker
But then we hear from the slave people
00:36:40
Speaker
Rizzo, Razi, Rizzo, Rizzo, no. We hear from Razu about her cousin who was Ifrit and he didn't sound that bad. He just, you know, and how she said there was more, there was still, they had relationships with, you know, it wasn't so all of you are evil and we're all good. It was, there was more of a give and take.
00:37:04
Speaker
So yeah, i do wonder about that. Are we going to meet some Ifrit who aren't as cruel as the ones we've found? Yeah. And it is interesting that the that this line, I have this line I want to quote, and it's interesting that it comes from an Ifrit. And it's one of the, so far, Dara has two beings who have spoken truth to him, trying to get through to him about that this Nahid is not a good person. No. And so far it's been a Marid and an Ifrit.
00:37:36
Speaker
Which is too bad because he's like, well, both of you are my enemy, so why would I listen to you? You're clearly just trying to drive a wedge between me and Maniza. But the, let's see, Viseresh says to Dara during this conversation that we're talking about, when Dara is talking about why he can't just...
00:37:55
Speaker
ride the wind and leave everything. and he's And he's talking about, you know, that, you know, we have a duty to save our people. And Viserish chuckles. Ah, Dara Yavahush, there are always people to save and always cunning men and women around who find a way to take advantage of that duty and harness it into power.
00:38:16
Speaker
I feel like in that one line, you have exactly what happens in the book, exactly what happens in real life. You have the people on the low to mid-level who just want to do the right thing, who want to save their people who want to protect their people, who want to make sure this terrible thing doesn't happen again. And then you have the people who control those people through promises of protection, service, and you know, ending wars and then, the
Ali and Nari's Struggle for Peace
00:38:47
Speaker
you know, and then the power hungry will always use it for power.
00:38:52
Speaker
And part of it is that teaching generation after generation to hate each other because you know, Ali gets to the point where he's, he says to the Shafet woman, he's just so weary.
00:39:05
Speaker
He's tired of the killing and he, is there any way to stop it you know And she says, well, that's rich coming from the son of a tyrant. She's like, well, you know you're not the one being having your people killed in this round, so you might feel differently if it's if you if your people weren't in power.
00:39:22
Speaker
But as as Nari and Ali are realizing, and Dara is fighting the realization of if we're always retaliating and ruling through brutality, the war won't ever end.
00:39:38
Speaker
You cannot end war with more war. Right. And all he gets that twice in this book, he gets it just the one you just referenced. And also after Nari loses Nisreen and she wants to track down The people who knew this attack was coming and Ali won't do it. And she says, what have you lost?
00:39:56
Speaker
Who have you lost? Because at that point, he really, i mean, he's been abused by his father, certainly, but he's not dead and he hasn't really lost anyone yet.
00:40:07
Speaker
That's true. Until the end of this book where he loses everyone although that's not entirely true because he has lost his sheikh abu anas in the in the beginning you know in in book one so he has lost someone dear to him that's true by the hand of his father so and how yes and how far have we come since then you know, when he dies and he says to Ali, like, make my death earn this.
00:40:43
Speaker
When I started this series, I was like, oh, this book's going to be about how Ali Zayd allies with the Tanzim and takes a note. And I think this is much more interesting, much more accurate to how power politics play out where, again, just good people trying to do good and And yet the war never ends. And yeah, you see the Tanzim, the people who were there, interpreted his words the same way where, okay, that means you work with us and you do what we want and you give us the weapons and and we have our grand rebellion.
00:41:21
Speaker
And the fact that that's another point where he puts principle above people, where he doesn't just react emotionally and say, yeah, I just had to watch my mentor get slaughtered before my eyes and now I'm going to retaliate, which is then something Montadir gets upset at him for because he doesn't understand it. And he thinks, oh, you are cold and calculating. I didn't even realize. I thought you were just, you know, you had your beliefs and you acted up upon impulse, but now I see how cold you can be. And that frightens me.
00:41:54
Speaker
And whereas it's like he, from Ali's point of view, it's He believed in the principles that he learned from this man, from his sheik. And he loved him because of those principles that he taught.
00:42:14
Speaker
So even with his death, he's not going to go against it even to follow the followers of this man. He's going to try to do what he sees is right and with as little loss of innocent life as possible.
00:42:30
Speaker
Mm-hmm. which very few people in this book care about. Nari, Ali, Nisreen at the end. Yeah. Him being trained his whole life to be a weapon allows him to have clarity in these moments violence, like when he he has an attempt on his life and instead of making it known, he hides that and has the assassin thrown in the lake and everybody thinks it's cold, but he's doing it so that his father doesn't kill a ton of Shafiq.
00:43:00
Speaker
Right. There's so often where you see, this is, since we do see into other people's points of view, we get to see what people assume is the reason for things. And then we know what the real reasons are. And that's part of the heartbreak of this book is, is knowing you know if you all just talk to each other, you know, you're not actually, yes, you have different prejudices, but It could be worked out if you stopped assuming what the other person was doing and why.
00:43:34
Speaker
Which was an interesting part when that's Nari hears Hatset talking about her and realizes like, yeah, I was kind of thinking that. But hearing her say it, i it put it into reality of, you know, instead of just her being angry at the king inside her head and thinking, you know, one day I'll have my vengeance. hearing Hatsat say it out loud, she realizes what that vengeance would look like and who it would affect.
00:44:03
Speaker
And it gives her pause. Like, oh, hearing it like that, i actually that's not who I want to be. h Right. Which it's interesting that Gazan did it as a as a punishment in making Hatsat leave, but then in making her leave, he's saved her life.
00:44:23
Speaker
Thank god Another thing that I think is so cool in this book is you have like you have Maniza and Hatset, two very powerful women who who work in very different ways.
Tension and Hopes in Maniza's Attack
00:44:36
Speaker
and And it's not like you're like, oh, she's clearly the good one and the bad one. It's like they've just grown up differently in similar situations. Like, yes, the Hatset's people are not as held down as the Deva's.
00:44:54
Speaker
But they're still under the control of another tribe and they still have to work carefully. Going back to when the Giziri soldiers were trapped or, you know, it before they were killed and they were prisoners of war.
00:45:13
Speaker
And then the older one tries to kill Maniza. And what you were saying about Dara being personally hurt by this fact, Whereas he would have done the same thing.
00:45:26
Speaker
i In that moment when when he when the soldier was going to kill Maniza, I was like, oh, wouldn't that be amazing if if he actually did? Like, wouldn't that be a happy surprise?
00:45:37
Speaker
Like, if there was this buildup of Maniza's attack and then she gets killed before it happens. And then they have to figure out what to do. i knew i knew it wasn't going to happen, that he was going to fail, but I had this moment of hope.
00:45:51
Speaker
What if, wouldn't that be an interesting turn of events?
00:45:57
Speaker
We can always hope. Which is interesting because you don't have that very often in books where one of the main characters who you love is planning a rebellion and you want the soldier of the king who you know needs to get dethroned trying to kill, and you're like, yeah, maybe it'll work.
00:46:16
Speaker
Like, that is... pretty cool that these characters can be so layered and and realistic that you can hope for victory on both sides in different ways.
00:46:28
Speaker
How well that's captured when in the scene where Kassan ultimately dies where you know Nari hates him and wants him to lose but when Kaveh releases the the poison she's horrified.
00:46:40
Speaker
Absolutely horrified. She says, what have you done? and yeah you know And so it's just like even in that moment where she is defying him like that, wants him to lose, probably wants him dead.
00:46:53
Speaker
She's still, and you're upset too. I was upset. We were all upset. I ah do full disclosure. I finished this book in the waiting room of and the emergency room in the hospital. Everyone's fine. Just lift your spirits. Yeah, but I did. i will admit to, i skimmed Lubade's death and I skimmed the king's death. i was like, shoot, ah nope. but going okay, he dies. Okay. You know, as soon as, as soon as Lubain's eyes, he describes his eyes and you know, I'm like, oh God, he's being killed. I can't.
00:47:28
Speaker
Yeah. So I did the same thing with the king's death. um Yeah, it's totally true. You know what's happening. You know, he can't be king anymore. This horrendous death that you know is then going to spread and kill a bunch of innocent people.
00:47:43
Speaker
it's it's It is horrifying. No matter who it's killing. Mm-hmm. Which is why Maniza can't be in power. New. Carolina. Yes, darling. What is your spark of the week?
00:47:55
Speaker
Well, I am an extreme homebody, and this week I had to be away for work. And thank you, Mary. I have two sparks. Spark number one is Mary called me every night and talked to me for like over an hour while i wasn't home and made me feel much better. And then I got to go home a day early and just coming home, i just kept saying, I'm home. And I made a cup of tea and I snuggled kitties and I made a fire and sat by the fire and read my book. And I just all night, I just kept saying, I'm home.
00:48:30
Speaker
Yay. It's amazing how a trip, especially when it's a work trip to ah an area that you don't enjoy. It's amazing how much that can make fun.
00:48:42
Speaker
Not that it makes home better because you already love your home, but it highlights but how much you love it. yeah yes um You've had an interesting week. What was your spark of the week? Well, I can cheat a little because this a week began with my birthday.
00:49:00
Speaker
oh yeah. So, you know, I mean, it was Saturday, but i it's accounting. and yeah My birthday has happened between now and the last recording.
00:49:11
Speaker
So for my birthday, we I had just kind of a rolling visiting day where I was at home and different people came throughout the day to celebrate and hang out and visit, which I really loved doing it that way because then I could have a little time to visit with everyone who came over And it wasn't, you know, just, okay, here's through two hours of everyone all together. Now do something fun.
00:49:37
Speaker
So yeah, it was really fun. We got to prep the greenhouse a little bit for seeds. And yeah, it was just a very calm, happy day. Yeah.
00:49:50
Speaker
I was there. I can attest. Yeah. ah So if we're doing two sparks, my second spark is that everyone is fine, even though we had to go to the hospital the other night. So that is a huge spark.
00:50:04
Speaker
Not one that I would have anyone replicate. And, ah you know, can I create a spark? All right. Somebody go to the hospital and then be okay. So next week we will actually not be talking of Empire Gold yet. We are going to be alternating...
00:50:21
Speaker
episode. So the next episode, we'll be talking about a more of a broad theme within fantasy so that anyone can enjoy it, even if you're not reading the books that we're reading. And then the next week, we'll continue with our book club books. So join us next week to talk about grimdark versus noble bright in fantasy. What does it mean? Is it a sliding scale?
00:50:44
Speaker
And how do we enjoy it if we enjoy it?
Conclusion and Reflection on Storytelling
00:50:47
Speaker
Thank you for chatting with us this week. And we are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.