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The Dark is Rising, Free Will, and Would We Risk Our Life?
24 Plays22 days ago
In This episode we talk about Susan Cooper's book, The Dark Is Rising. Does the ancient force of the Dark keep it's promises and How does the Light fight back? Who are the Old Ones and how does the betrayer get betrayed? Most importantly what can we take from this book to help in our own battle against the Dark? Find out this week's Spark Rec and hear our first Discworld Delight!
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Transcript
Introduction to the 'Mythic Mirror' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
What are the rewards of the dark, the demands of the light, and the timeless battle between the two?
00:00:17
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for fans of myth and fantasy who want to live a magical, fulfilling life. i'm your co I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina
Overview of 'The Dark is Rising' by Susan Cooper
00:00:29
Speaker
Carter.
00:00:29
Speaker
And we are talking about the book, The Dark is Rising. Carolina, would you like to tell us a little bit about what this book is? Yes, the book was written in the seventy s ah set in rural England about a little boy who is turning 11 and discovers the world is much more magical and older than he initially may have believed.
00:00:52
Speaker
ah Ancient forces of light and dark are moving again. Ooh, very nice. Thank you.
Timelessness and Folklore in the Book
00:00:59
Speaker
One of the things I first noticed about this book is the timelessness of it. you we We talked about this earlier, and you thought it was written later than the 70s. I thought it was written earlier than the 70s. And I think she was able to do that because she, the author, what's her name?
00:01:20
Speaker
Susan Cooper. Susan Cooper. um She... tied into some really like the timeless ancient folklore of Britain. If you grew up reading some of those things, she ties into those so well that you feel like you're reading from that time. So, you know, she talks about the Waylon Smith, which I remember first hearing about in Puckapooks Hill in Kipling's book. And, you know, it it since I read that, or actually ah my dad read it to us as kids. So hearing it now in this book,
00:01:54
Speaker
ties back into these like vague childhood memories of of the the fairy world of Britain. And I know that isn't going to happen for everyone who didn't, you know, hear these stories growing up.
00:02:09
Speaker
But for those that did, it just adds this layer of richness and timelessness and reality to it. It feels very real to me. yeah Yeah, definitely.
Exploring Fear and the Role of Magic
00:02:20
Speaker
it didn't It didn't feel like a modern fantasy at all. No, no, definitely not a modern fantasy, but i when I first read it, I think I was probably 12, and that would have been in the early 2000s, and I remember thinking that it had come out recently while I read it.
00:02:39
Speaker
um And it was interesting doing a reread now because i was kind of like, gosh, this is kind of scary for a for me to read when I was 12. But I think I was more scared reading it now than I was when I was 12 when the dark attacks and the way that it attacks initially is it just sort of evokes emotion from him where he just suddenly is so fearful But it's, you know, that he learns later on that the fear can't hurt you, but they can make you feel intense fear.
00:03:09
Speaker
I don't know why that just hit me harder as an adult than it did as a kid. Probably because you have more experience with fear now. So much experience. Yeah, I think it's interesting with kids because we, so many times ah when you're, with for those who have been with children in their games and things, they have a certain amount of Almost amoral.
00:03:33
Speaker
Yeah. Where it's like they they don't have as much and maybe and that's maybe their viewpoint is the correct one, but they don't see death as such a big deal at that time. We always say it's because they haven't experienced someone dying. They haven't this, they haven't that. But you know, who knows, maybe they're right and and we're wrong. um and And it really isn't that big of a deal. But I think that affects them. They don't get scared of the same things that adults get scared of.
00:04:03
Speaker
They definitely still have, like we we talked about last time with um the world of childhood and and feeling all these things bigger. But it's it's interesting to see that it's different things sometimes.
00:04:17
Speaker
So in this book, he's 11 years old, and he becomes, he finds out he's an old one, which means he he's an immortal who's a guardian of the world to help, you know, ah keep the dark from taking the world over.
00:04:35
Speaker
And it's interesting to see the Right along with he he's entering into this battle, which has some very eerie moments and and scary moments with the dark.
00:04:48
Speaker
But at the same time, they're celebrating Christmas with his family.
Christmas and Light vs. Dark Themes
00:04:52
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And one of the things that I loved was that... It showed how this celebration of light and life and love isn't ignoring the dark. It's part of the battle. You're not closing out the world in order to have like, oh, we're just going to have a nice Christmas and and the dark doesn't exist. It's we are going to affirm and celebrate the light and in in all these ways of, you know, the holly berries and the Yule log and the Christmas tree, all of these things have deep meaning, which, you know, even if you're doing it unconsciously, it's still for the light. And, you but if you're doing it with meaning, we talked about last time of of finding these meaningful things to do in your life,
00:05:37
Speaker
Not all of us have a fireplace. You might not be able to do a Yule log, but finding something you can do. We're fighting the dark in this way rather than we're ignoring the dark. You know, nobody's homeless. Nobody's hungry. There's no war anywhere. We're going to have a nice Christmas. It's like, no, that is all happening. And that's why whatever you're celebrating, whether it's Christmas or something else, it's it's that idea of affirming goodness and that that is right a magic. Right.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah, and it's interesting how magic is used in this book as more of a preservation than it is of a creation. It's not like you're not making things fly around. You're not like using it to create, I don't know, anything, but more as a preservation of the light and a fighting back of the dark.
00:06:24
Speaker
And in that sense, the magic in this book has more of a a sense of duty than like oh a reward than a reward, which is interesting. I don't think a lot of books have that.
00:06:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think especially nowadays, with the ah magic is more of a spectacle. you you know it's it's um You've got all these words you say out loud and there's yeah you're're you're changing something, you're creating something, you're moving something, you're affecting the outer world, whereas this magic, it's all inner. And yeah, I don't think they ever do a magic that isn't having to do with battling the dark. Like that is all they use their power for.
Betrayal and Free Will
00:07:05
Speaker
Right. Which is which is very interesting. And that you see that with the Walker character when he is first offered the idea of working with the dark and and the mentor figure is talking to the main character about it. He's talking to Will and he's saying...
00:07:23
Speaker
You know, that he's going to be offered all the rewards of the dark. he You know, he's just a man and he's not able to hold the demands of the light. That scene to me was one of the most powerful scenes in the book of seeing someone who is so powerful, has all this magic, and yet he doesn't stop. the person he considers his son from betraying him. He knows it's going to happen because they move through time differently. So in some time that he's been in, it's already happened.
00:07:54
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And he knows that he just has to let it play out. And because, and I, and I was thinking about this as, you know, as I'm reading it, I'm like, just go stop him. You know, if you see the witch, you see him go and take him back out of there. But yeah,
00:08:10
Speaker
but He has free will. You know, there's the the debate of is everything fate or do you have free will? And I think it's both. You are fated by your free will. You make a choice.
00:08:22
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And then because of that choice, there are things that are fated to happen. So he, the mentor, would not and could not take away the person he loved as a son, he couldn't take away his free will choice.
00:08:39
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From the moment he knew in his eyes, even before the actual betrayal happened, he could see it in his eyes that it was going Right. And which i think is interesting because it never really says what the rewards of the dark are that are promised, but you do feel it when you're dealing with the main character and you're dealing with the other old ones that the faith that they have is again a process instead of a reward it's not like well we're gonna do this and then we're going to rule over the earth or we're gonna do this and then we can take it easy for the rest of forever we'll be rich it's just that it's just it it is what must be done and they do it and then they do what has to be done next and there's not really an end and there's not really a reward other than the doing it which is also very interesting
00:09:30
Speaker
When the walker, the person who, who betrays the light when he is given a second chance, when he when they're the offering him, you know, come back to the good side and he, you know, he just goes off talking about all the things that hit that this man has done to him. You forced me to do this and that and you forced me to risk my life when that was all, you know, his free choice. He he was offered the opportunity.
00:09:59
Speaker
And yes, there was a risk of losing his life, but that was – he He went, he went into it knowing that, but then. the the idea that that this man he looked at as a father would allow him to risk his life meant that he didn't love him so as enough. you know So then that is what led to the betrayal.
00:10:20
Speaker
And I thought another part where in my head the little voice is going, come say something back to him, because he's reaching out to him and with full love pouring out of his face, offering him, you know it's it's not too late, you can come back. You don't have to stay with these evil forces. And he just starts rattling off the story he's told in his head of you forced me to do this, you forced me to do that. And the mentored father figure doesn't
00:10:52
Speaker
doesn't defend himself. He doesn't try to logic him into like, no, well, that's not actually what happened. He just keeps offering that chance and and showing the love that he has for him. He doesn't, out of his own like self-righteousness, feel the need to defend himself. He knows what the truth is. And he knows deep down, this guy knows what the truth is. so he is focused on, no, this is your chance. like that's That's what is important in this moment.
00:11:21
Speaker
which also struck me this time reading it. But I also think it's interesting because that what you said about um he knows the truth, which I'm like, well, when he's rattling off the list of what happened to him, it's not that what he's saying isn't necessarily true.
00:11:37
Speaker
It's true in some sense of the word, but it's not right. What I think I'm trying to say is like, like we were talking about last time with the Hogfather, the importance of belief is more about what it shapes in you than whether or not it's really true or not. And so obviously his beliefs had twisted.
00:11:57
Speaker
some facts that while they're still facts and that's what makes them believable, it's not necessarily correct. and and it And it sort of like puts this veil over his eyes that that he wants there. And I think that we all do that to some extent in our own lives of just like, it is New Year's Eve at the time of resolutions. And I think about the last year and how many times I went to the gym versus how many times i was like, well,
00:12:27
Speaker
I can't because blah, blah, blah. And while there might have been some sense of truth to that, it wasn't really correct. I could have gone. That sort of thing. Like we're always, we are always writing stories based on our belief system. So it's really important we know what that belief system is and how it's shaping us.
Personal Beliefs and Discworld Delight
00:12:49
Speaker
Right. How's that for preachy? I love it. okay
00:12:56
Speaker
Now it's time for our Discworld Delight. We're going to give you a random quote from a Terry Pratchett book, and you have to guess what book it's from, if you can. You can put it in the comments, and we'll tell you next week if you're right.
00:13:10
Speaker
All right, so for our Discworld Delight this week, here we go. Jason suddenly felt the focus of attention. They're out there, said Carter. And we ain't got any weapons, said Tinker. A set of heavy brass bells hit him in the chest. Shut up, said Jason, and put your bells on.
00:13:30
Speaker
So, shut up and put your bells on. What book is that from? Let us know. Yeah, I definitely went down, um I guess, a rabbit hole of imagination with that scene of the betrayal and thinking about what I would do. And, you know, maybe I wouldn't do this. I've never had someone say, hey, are you going to how you going to help the save the world and you will risk your life? But in my imagination, it was the realization that we're mortal. So so the man being asked to risk his life is mortal, but he's being asked by these immortal beings
00:14:07
Speaker
to do something and it's, we're going to die anyway. At some point we're going to die. So having someone who's this like immortal being that whose life is so much bigger and, and, and ah deeper than the little slice that we're a part of,
00:14:26
Speaker
Having that person open up that world to you and say, i trust you and love you enough to ask you to become a part of this fight, to become a part of this battle, there is a risk of death.
00:14:40
Speaker
But it's for a greater cause. And I don't know. I'd be all for it. I know. And that's why you're better person than me because I'd be like, can think about it? i only have the one life. You don't die.
00:14:53
Speaker
this is the only one I get. I feel like we're being a little willy-nilly with that. Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.
00:15:07
Speaker
You know, it's just kind of like, well, sure, it makes sense that you want to take that risk, but this is the only one I got. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's the only one you got. well Just a little devil's advocate. No, I hear you. It's a good point.
00:15:20
Speaker
I also am really brave until I actually start to feel pain. soon as you and like Not that he felt real pain, but he felt real fear yeah of the loss of his life. And he was a devout ah follower until he felt that fear. Right. That's true. So he's better than me.
00:15:38
Speaker
i haven't even gone that far. It's a good point. We don't know. until you were actually faced with that test. I mean, I like to think that's how I would behave. I believe that's how I'd behave. But until that actually comes, you know, that's part of the judging, not judging people, because you never know. But yeah, getting back to the book, I did love how, like, we're talking a lot about light and darkness. And it's it sounds very ah you's spiritual. But
00:16:10
Speaker
in the book, it doesn't feel at all. It feels like deeper than religion, older than religion. You know, it's like these cosmic forces. And and when they bring in her and the hunter at the end,
00:16:24
Speaker
It's tying into that old, old power that that was there before all these religions. And, you know, the light is older than any human construct.
00:16:34
Speaker
And they're when they're in the church and there's the attack, when the dark is attacking, and the the boy is sitting there in in the choir and he's thinking his 11-year-old eclastical self, is the right word? i even No idea. yeah No idea. Anyway, the 11-year-old choir boy himself is thinking, but it can't attack. I'm in a church.
00:16:58
Speaker
And then the old one, the ancient part of himself, is thinking, of course, it would come here because this is where people contemplate the light and the dark. this is This is a focal point.
00:17:10
Speaker
But i I really like when an author can... bring in a spirituality without it feeling churchy or or preachy.
00:17:20
Speaker
i know i I never felt like she was telling me to believe something. And I think a lot of fantasy can can get around that preachy feeling by making it, you know this is a different world and it's multiple gods. And so it it you you don't get triggered the same way if you've had you know, like a lot of people who might have had a bad experience in this world with with an organized religion, then they can read in fantasy and not have to face that and not feel preached at. And it's a lot harder, I think, to do when the story is based in this world and you're dealing with powers of light in darkness. And I think she did a really good job with that.
00:18:00
Speaker
And anyway, I think she did a really good job with
Nature, Magic, and Herne the Hunter
00:18:04
Speaker
that. I agree. Yeah.
00:18:07
Speaker
aren't you glad you asked me to do this podcast with you? Yes. I think she does a really good job navigating that. And also that you, I wish there was a less cheap way to put this, but that you sort of buy into the fight immediately. Like when I started reading it, I was immediately afraid of the dark and immediately rooting for the light. And just like I was caught up in it and I was scared and I was invested. Yeah. And then at the end, when that,
00:18:35
Speaker
Wild element of the hunt comes in. i love the part where he's looking at the face of her and the hunter and he sees lines of cruelty in his face. But then he's looking at his face again and he realized that the cruelty or the lines aren't of cruelty, but of...
00:18:56
Speaker
just the unrelenting time of like the unrelenting way of nature, which I think is, is really interesting. And and it is a pre Christian idea of, of nature and magic in that sense of like, it's not good or evil. It's, it's what you make of it.
00:19:16
Speaker
And it is inevitable. Yeah. Whatever you have put out, that will inevitably come back at you. Hearn the Hunter will inevitably hunt you down because of what you you created, ah which i which I think is such a a cool thing because he's he is a kind of scary being. you know His hounds are white with red flaming eyes.
00:19:44
Speaker
And it definitely otherworldly, not very comforting. um But he gives Will this little smile and and you just get the whole feeling of that inevitability. And and it's impersonal.
00:20:00
Speaker
it isn't He isn't going for vengeance. It's this impersonal force that's just can't be stopped. That's interesting.
Illusions of Darkness vs. Demands of Light
00:20:08
Speaker
Like a volcano. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:11
Speaker
Yeah. If you go out unprepared onto the mountain, you're not going to have a good time. And it's not because the mountain hates you. Right. Right. It's just nature and the way that it is.
00:20:23
Speaker
And you can tell the way it is because of how it is. Wise words. Thank you. And to answer our original question, the rewards of the dark. They they you don't get what you were promised. of You know, the walker does not get the rewards that he was promised. He doesn't get to have the signs.
00:20:43
Speaker
And that isn't just the ancient, you know, symbols and signs that they've been trying to find through the whole book. And it isn't because the dark loses. You know, he is, the dark betrays him because that's what that force does. You know, it uses you.
00:20:59
Speaker
And, you know, so that comes back to that idea of the of the heavy demands of the light. It's like, they're gonna be, the light is very truthful. That force of goodness in this book doesn't lie about what's at stake, what's going to happen. Yes, you you might lose your life. Yes, these things could happen.
00:21:22
Speaker
And if it go if everything goes well, it means we are more powerful for the next time the dark attacks. you know, it's not like you said, it's not even the world's safe forever. it's It's we're in a better position for the next time. Right.
00:21:39
Speaker
And we can banish it to the edges of the earth, but it may come back. Right, right. and And so the outlook might be grim, but it's only going to get better rather than what the what the evil force promises all these things. But it's only going to get worse. Right.
00:21:58
Speaker
To which I say you lose them how you got them. If you betrayed somebody to get where you are, you will ultimately be betrayed. Yep. When did you figure out or when did you guess who the walker was?
00:22:09
Speaker
I never did. Not until they spelled it out for me.
00:22:15
Speaker
I was like, what? Him? Well, I'll be. When did you? Probably about halfway through. Wow. Such good reading comprehension.
00:22:27
Speaker
I had a sneaky suspish. Dang. My sneaky suspishes are always dead wrong. I'm like, what if the writer is actually the good guy? Nope, he's the bad guy. Hold time. Okay.
00:22:41
Speaker
I'm expecting twists and turns. You can't even imagine.
Spark Recommendation and Conclusion
00:22:45
Speaker
Every And now, Carolina, before we go, what is your spark recommendation? My spark recommendation of the week, I think, creates the eerie magic that I felt in this book. So that is to go for a walk at dusk.
00:23:02
Speaker
Ooh. I like that. Thank you. All right. Mine is it was Christmas This week. So the spark of joy that I really got this week was when we all gathered in the living room again.
00:23:16
Speaker
lot lot of my sparks happened in the living room, I guess. Such a great room. And so the whole family, we had three generations, not the whole family, a lot of the family. And we had we all sang Christmas carols before Christmas dinner. And Just seeing are the little one and a half year old nephew sitting on my cousin's lap and and bobbing along to the music and remembering, you know, my grandparents having singalongs in that room.
00:23:45
Speaker
And it. just it just felt so special and it takes a little extra effort to create some of those special moments when it's a little outside of our usual behavior patterns you know it would be easier just to sit around and talk but you know you just make that extra little oomph of of effort and you can really have something super special yeah hopefully that didn't sound too preachy Not at all.
00:24:10
Speaker
All right. So, Carolina, take us home. I guess to sum it up, I would say this is not your usual cozy Christmas eat read, but it is a necessary midwinter read. Yeah, it definitely captures the midwinter spookiness.
00:24:26
Speaker
So get out there. Keep your stick on, my gosh. next week we'll be continuing on with the Dark is Rising series. And if you have any books you would like to hear us chat about, Leave us a note in the comments. We've added the ones from last week onto our list.
00:24:42
Speaker
We are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.