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Fantasy & Real-World Resilience: Wanderers, North Stars, & Everyday Magic
13 Plays14 days ago
Come chat about mental and emotional resiliency in fiction and real life! Following the wanderer archetype, Mary and Carolina explore the aspects of fantasy book characters that give them resiliency, and how we can emulate them.
What in our modern day culture makes it hard to build resilience? We explore that too! Leave a comment on youtube or a review where ever you are listening? It helps grow the show and we love hearing from you!
Join Mary's Kickstarter Prelaunch page at kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
To check out Art of Resilience by Ross Edgley go to bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe It's in the Mythic Mentions book list which is the last list on the page!
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Transcript
Is Resilience Innate or Developed?
00:00:00
Speaker
What is the difference between running away and moving forward? Does resiliency develop from hardship or is it innate? Can we form our own resiliency in reality based off of characters in fantasy?
Introduction to Mythic Mirror Podcast
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for fans of myth and fantasy who want to live magical and fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary Sikiho. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter. Today we are exploring resiliency in fantasy, in reality, and the archetype of the wanderer. Carolina, you want to start us off with the wanderer?
The Wanderer Archetype in Myth and Literature
00:00:47
Speaker
Yes, I think to put it in its most simple terms, the wanderer is the archetype that leaves the known for the unknown. Generally, it's the restless character that must keep moving forward. um The most classic example of the wanderer in literature would be Odysseus from the Odyssey. um i think the one people would be most familiar with would be either Bilbo or Frodo from lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. And there's also other, you know, people have done some exploration into other versions of the wanderer, either the emotional wanderer, the spiritual wanderer, the modern wanderer.
00:01:25
Speaker
um People have pointed to Eat, Pray, Love as the emotional wanderer. Obviously, she's physically wandering as well, but the book focuses more on that emotional journey. um So just exploring that concept ourselves in the books that we've read and also in terms of resiliency.
00:01:43
Speaker
It's interesting that Odysseus is considered a wanderer. I would say physical wanderer, but not emotional because he's just always trying to get home. He doesn't want to be wandering. Right, and that's something that I have thought about it as well as we've thought about this concept this week is because the strict definition of the term makes it sound as if they want to, but in most of the examples, you know, like Bilbo didn't, I find most wanderers are reluctant wanderers. Bilbo didn't want to wander, Frodo didn't want to leave the Shire,
00:02:16
Speaker
um you know, I'm sure Harry Potter would have preferred his parents were alive. i mean, I know he's more of like a more of a hero's journey than a wanderer, but I would argue that he's an outsider and being an outsider is a classification for wanderer. I think a good example of wanderer would be the witcher. Yes.
00:02:36
Speaker
Excellent example. I think he, he is one that actually wants to wander, at least through the part of the series that I've read so far. The first four books. Yeah, and in that sense, in Lord of the Rings, you could say that Aragorn is the Wanderer as well, maybe more so.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, he's interesting because he moves through archetypes. He starts as the Wanderer and then becomes, you know, like the king, the ruler. Right. And even so, when he is wandering, that's a good example of the running from instead of running to, because in the trilogy, in the books, when he says his real name and when he accepts accepts his real identity, he laughs. And it's as if this weight has been lifted off of him. So once again, it's like the wanderer does want to come home.
00:03:26
Speaker
I think that's what I'll argue for this podcast. I like it. The first thing I thought of when you gave me that, that question about running away or moving forward is actually the first version of my debut novel. um So in the first version, the main character left her home, left the whole area in her society before anything was resolved.
00:03:57
Speaker
And then now in this final version, she resolves it before moving on. And and my so my first reaction to your question was running away comes before the resolution and moving forward comes after.
00:04:14
Speaker
If you can, if you're continuing to wander. So in the first version, she definitely was running away from everything that was going on as well as she was moving towards something, but you know, that was a huge part of it. And then now in this version, she's done everything she can to resolve the situation and is now free to move forward.
00:04:36
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree with you on that, but no spoilers. So how do you see resiliency working with the wanderer archetype?
Resilience Beyond Survival
00:04:47
Speaker
In order to be a wanderer, you have to be able to adapt. Otherwise, you would just stay home. He wouldn't, if Bilbo didn't have any sort of resilience and resiliency within himself, he would have just not gone to seek the treasure. Frodo would have just not gone. He would have forced the ring on Gandalf and been like, I can't do this. I'm not going to do this.
00:05:12
Speaker
um So I think, and that's my question to you at the beginning of the episode is resiliency innate or is it earned through hardship? Because it almost seems like it must be innate. Otherwise the journey would never begin.
00:05:27
Speaker
First, let me answer that point that you made because I really love it. I was thinking of a similar thing about resiliency. my one of The first thing I thought of for resiliency is active versus passive. The characters in all of these books are naturally active because as you know the book wouldn't happen if they didn't make that choice, if they if they didn't act or react in some way.
00:05:55
Speaker
And that's part of the resiliency is taking an active measure, doing something, taking control in some way and acting, uh, resiliency isn't just surviving. It's creating within the hardship. yeah You're, you're not just moving along to get along. You're moving forward. You're,
00:06:21
Speaker
it's it's an act of creation, even if you're not creating something physical, it's like you're creating a new circumstance out of what you've been handed. Whereas I think one of the reasons it's harder for us to be resilient in this age is I think society and modern culture, just the modern world is designed to train us to be passive and,
00:06:48
Speaker
It's a lot harder to be resilient when you're just a passive consumer or. i think consumer is a perfect word. um You said trying to get us to be passive.
00:07:01
Speaker
I would say, yes, passive and worn down. i think, I mean, which we're just saying the same thing, of course. and No, no, I agree completely. That was my second point actually was kind of exploring fatigue, oh which we can we can get to later. We can answer your other question first, but i I agree. I think passive and worn down are two different things. And yes, they feed into each other.
00:07:25
Speaker
But to answer the question of is resiliency gained through hardship or innate, I would say it depends and it depends.
00:07:36
Speaker
In my nonprofit days. when we learn about children and the children that are resilient and versus the children that go through adverse childhood experiences and it breaks them or it it takes them on a path to destruction, whether it's through substance abuse, crime,
00:07:59
Speaker
um depression. So there's what they call the ACE factors. So that's, yeah, the adverse childhood experiences that if you have enough of these, I think there's like one to eight or something, but if you have enough of these, you're more likely to have a, you know, end up with substance abuse, end up in jail, end up um dead before your time.
00:08:24
Speaker
But then to counterbalance that, there's what they call the resiliency factors. So this is the the factors that affect a childhood that through through having these things in their life, even if they have all these adverse experiences, they are resilient through them.
00:08:43
Speaker
It's the difference between, i think they... they have terms like the, like the dandelion child or the wildflower where it's like they're coming up and thriving through, you know, a concrete jungle through, you know, anything you have a dandelion popping up. And it's the same thing with kids who go through terrible things and yet somehow come out on top and, so you know, emotionally strong and balanced. So I think, yes,
00:09:10
Speaker
there can be an innate thing inside someone that is the seed or the spark of resiliency. But then if, if you have just enough of that support that can help you build resiliency.
Hero's Journey vs. Heroine's Journey
00:09:25
Speaker
So that's one of the reasons why community is so important. Having, you know, one trusted person that you can talk to. And so, so So yes, it comes from within and without you. And you can see that in fantasy with, you know, what they call the heroes for ah the hero's journey or the heroine's journey. And it doesn't really have to do with the gender of the protagonist. It has to do more with the structure of the story where a hero usually by the end ah has to,
00:10:01
Speaker
face the final thing alone. they through The story, um I apologize for sounds going on. We've got family here. So sounds will happen. So the hero's journey is structured to strip the hero down to their fundamental essence, to that strength. You know, they lose all the psychological and emotional props that they've they've learned to get around and get along in life with so that by in the end, it's it's up to them. They have to to face it and conquer and you know move forward, transform, you whatever it is that the plot requires.
00:10:44
Speaker
Whereas the heroine's journey is more of a collective where you're moving through with a group of people and it's about working together in cooperation.
00:10:56
Speaker
So I see both of those as very helpful as examples to read because I think we need both of those things. ah There's a big debate about, you know, which one's better and, you know, I won't even get into it, but I think when both of those stories are successful and helpful to the reader,
00:11:21
Speaker
they can be, um let me rephrase that. ah
00:11:29
Speaker
So I think we can learn resiliency through actually both of those story structures, because at times we do have to stand on our own and, you know, face,
The Role of Community in Resilience
00:11:39
Speaker
conquer. There are some things that we naturally will just have to do on our own,
00:11:47
Speaker
But we also in our lives have support systems and and learning to be vulnerable with the people we love and to trust them and they trust you you, know, can can help build the resiliency so that when you do have to face something on your own, you you have that emotional resiliency built in.
00:12:12
Speaker
Right. And i think it's important, at least in the some of the heroin journeys that I'm thinking about, is that these heroines don't, that they don't feel like they're a resilient person. They don't, it's not that they feel that they're strong people.
00:12:30
Speaker
um Often, like Throne of Glass, I would say that um that main character is extremely resilient. But it's not that she feels like a hero or feels extremely resilient. I think oftentimes she feels completely lost and completely broken.
00:12:50
Speaker
So what is that hidden element between just being completely lost and completely broken and being secretly resilient? And is that just making that choice in each moment to continue on?
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. Cause you wouldn't need to be resilient if you didn't also feel broken. You know, that would just be another day. You're just going along, you know, resiliency is, doesn't show itself until you're in those hard moments.
00:13:25
Speaker
And
00:13:29
Speaker
I think you're right. it the difference is just continuing to find that next step forward. And, seeing circumstances not as a make or break in this one moment. We were talking about last time about hope and timelines. And there's a story of um a man who survived the prison camps during Vietnam, the Vietnam War. And he said a lot of the guys who came through who didn't make it kept having
00:14:05
Speaker
um timelines They'd say, we'll be out by Christmas. We'll be out by Christmas. And then Christmas would come and and they wouldn't get out. And it, you know, you it would just break them a little more. And then they'd pick a new date. We'll be out by Easter. And easter would come. in And each time it just chipped away at them. and And he survived long past a lot of these people, these other soldiers.
00:14:28
Speaker
And he said it was because he never put a timeline on it. He never gave it a date. He just said, I will get out. I will survive this. So he didn't build himself up for false timelines or build himself up to fail because it was, I will get out.
00:14:47
Speaker
without, without timeline, without conditions. That was just the the thing that he could hold to. And I think we see this in fantasy a lot where circumstances break a character down to the point where they discover what that thing is that they hold on to that gets them through.
00:15:07
Speaker
And part of going back to that passivity of kind of how we are trained to be now, we, often are so inundated by things every day from all different directions, good, bad, and in between that we are distracted. We're fatigued. We don't have that core quiet.
00:15:37
Speaker
Here's my North star that when it gets real bad and I feel broken, I can hold onto this one thing and get through. And I do think that is why um i was just on a drive with a friend the other day and she said, she was like, I am just one meeting the right person away from joining a cult. She's like, if I met someone right now who was like, cool, and was like, come over here, we're doing this, gave me something to believe in. She's like, I would sign up so fast to make your head spin. And I do think that's why
00:16:12
Speaker
And right now you see people tying into ideologies, even when the, you know, like, you know, you could say this about any cult, even when the facts don't make sense, even that when they don't add up people just because they have to, because if you take away that, then you have nothing.
00:16:31
Speaker
And then what do you do? Right. I think we all seek community and something to believe in that's bigger than ourselves. And so there's a lot of people who try to genuinely give that. And then there's a lot of people who use that to manipulate or and and, you know, profit off of people.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah, and that's where it's it's an interesting thing because I'd like to hear, I'd like to speak to different cultures with different fantasies about this because even the language we're using surrounding it, talking about being a consumer and people profiting off of it, it is very um transactional.
00:17:16
Speaker
And I just, you know, I wonder, and is the resiliency just sort of
00:17:26
Speaker
resisting that transaction, resisting that being a part of being a cog in that wheel? is that Is that the only resiliency choice we have left at it if you were to be a modern wanderer, a modern hero?
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a question that's come up a lot recently with AI of being human. And if we're doubling down on being human, what does that actually look like? And I think it actually is a positive reaction to AI that can, that could be a seed for a really ah beneficial movement of rediscovering what it is to be human. And, you know, it's already happening with the slow movement and these things where people are taking a step back and, and being,
00:18:15
Speaker
centered and remembering that, you know, they have a body as, as simple as that sounds. I can go out and look at the sky. I can go out, look at the stars. I can find those little things like you bring up those little rituals, those little things that ground me to my present and to what I can control. Everyone has their personal sphere. And yes, I think the systems break down, try to break us down and try to take as much of that control and,
00:18:47
Speaker
ah Oh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Fantasy's Role in Inspiring Agency
00:18:52
Speaker
What is it? Sovereignty. ah you know we Or agency. Agency, yeah. And I think that's what makes all of these stories so great and and why we keep coming back because we read about people who have agency, who who look at their life and do something about it. And I think it can be very inspiring.
00:19:14
Speaker
you You know, of course, we're not going to pick up swords and charge forth. We don't have the physical dragon to fight or to, you know, learn how to fly on.
00:19:26
Speaker
But the emotion and the mindset of these heroes, I think, can be very beneficial to emulate. Should we do our Discworld Delight?
00:19:40
Speaker
Let me see if we have any guesses. our other podcast just came out yesterday, so if you haven't guessed yet, it's okay. There's still time. By the time you're hearing me say this, you'll be great.
00:19:52
Speaker
You will have guessed. You will have guessed. This one isn't a guess, but I have to read it because it's awesome. This is from Sarah. ha It's her username. She says, i just discovered this awesome stuff.
00:20:07
Speaker
Discovered. Okay, I'll see myself out. ah ah um But we do have a couple guesses of Nightwatch. Nightwatch.
00:20:19
Speaker
Ah, and those are indeed correct. o This actually goes with what we were talking about a little bit. I just opened the book up.
00:20:30
Speaker
Her thoughts seemed to be chasing around beyond her control and disappearing. Pain and exhilaration and weariness poured into her mind, but it was as if other things were spilling out at the same time. Memories dwindled away on the wind. As fast as she could latch on to a thought, it evaporated, leaving nothing behind.
00:20:47
Speaker
She was losing chunks of herself, and she couldn't remember what she was losing. She panicked, burrowing back into the things she was sure of. Who is she, and what book is she in?
00:21:02
Speaker
At this point, should we announce what our next book is that we're going to be reading? Just because it ties in. down and It ties in Go right ahead. Next book we're going to be reading is Catherine Hepburn. We're going to be reading a Terry Pratchett novel.
00:21:18
Speaker
I don't know what it is. I didn't pick one. Oh, God.
00:21:27
Speaker
We would like to announce the next book for the Mythic Mirror Book Club will be our dear and beloved Sam Vimes. We're going to be reading Thud. Thud.
00:21:38
Speaker
So join us. Our next episode will be the end of Empire Gold. And then we shall move on to Sam Vimes and the summoning dark.
00:21:49
Speaker
So I wanted to go back to fatigue for a little bit because it's fatigue is very interesting. It used to be thought that it was only a physical reaction.
00:22:02
Speaker
And now science is realizing that it is a the brain is... creating this, the signals that create the fatigue in order to protect the body and return it to homeostasis. The brain is thinking, hey, we're working too hard. We got to calm down before we damage ourselves. Like, so, you know, I'm i'm going to cause um the subconscious is going to force the conscious brain to think you have to stop.
00:22:31
Speaker
So that's the the whole thing of, um you know, pushing through and it's not, you're pushing through the the brain's warning signals because the warning signals are coming too soon. like you You actually are only 40% the way to your limit.
00:22:49
Speaker
And I think this fatigue has somewhat been weaponized in the idea of what we were talking about of so many things coming at you. If you are in like in a state of emotional and physical fatigue through just having to survive, you're not going to be able to click into that thrive mode, that creativity. you The brain can't be creative when it's stuck in fight or flight.
00:23:23
Speaker
So but I think this is where the practice of resiliency comes in, of training the brain to, in those little ways of being resilient and reframing the situation to look for opportunities and, and,
00:23:40
Speaker
how we can take back our own agency in this situation and not just believe the false parameters that are given to us. which is where we see fantasy characters excel in. They are given, you know, you have to choose between A, B, and C. And they're like, well, I'm going to go with F. And here's my whole new completely paradigm shifting action. So yeah, I think you can't make those huge jumps and decisions in moments of fatigue and moments of fight or flight if you haven't built up in those little decisions the pattern within your brain to do so.
Personal Sources of Resilience
00:24:19
Speaker
Funny that you mentioned homeostasis because when it comes to the wanderer, I'd rather stasis at homeo myself. So you would be the Odysseus type wanderer. I'm wandering in order to get home. want to home. Which his North Star, you could say his North Star and his resiliency factor were the same thing. His wife.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah. The that they had for each other is what helped him be resilient. Get home. My question to you, Mary, is so you said that Penelope was his reason to come home and his reason for resiliency. Do you think that the key to resiliency is to have a reason to be resilient?
00:25:03
Speaker
That it's either your home you're fighting for, your person, your morals, your religion. do you think that is the the little secret key is to find your reasons?
00:25:15
Speaker
reason Yeah, I think that is a really good way of saying it. I think one of the major resiliency factors is having something larger than yourself.
00:25:26
Speaker
Because if your focus is on that aspect, rather than yourself, it opens the brain up to coming up with solutions and opportunities.
00:25:40
Speaker
Because if if you are focused on the self who is going through this painful experience or scary experience or fatiguing experience, then you know it By facing inward, you naturally close off the awareness of of solutions. Whereas if you're focused on the thing that's greater than yourself, whether it's a person, belief system, a you know whatever that North Star is,
00:26:14
Speaker
then you're opened, your mind is naturally going to seek the answer and seek the pathway to this thing that you're focusing on. So in that sense, maybe our spark of the week this week, which we don't have to get to yet, but could think about it.
00:26:32
Speaker
If your spark of the week this week could be maybe your reason for your resiliency. Ooh, that's deep. Yeah, we don't yet it's just an idea. We don't have to do it.
00:26:47
Speaker
We can talk about it. I have another spark of the week, but which has to do with resiliency. But thinking about what you know what our my North Star might be or is...
00:26:59
Speaker
In terms of, I will say, I have been thinking about this a lot in terms of moving forward with creativity and with the with the books and with this podcast and what the overarching point is other than, granted, of course, I want people to buy books and for me to be able to make a living off of them.
00:27:23
Speaker
But that's not really the reason to do it you know i could make money doing anything else so my north star for that aspect has been more along the lines of o this is getting personal all right but we don't have to we don't have to on that i'm going um is kind of it might in my own way of fighting back against this passivity and against this, you mentioned being a cog in the wheel and
00:28:01
Speaker
So what I am trying to create is a a space where people can feel rejuvenated and feel reconnected with something human and something beyond human in the meaning of kind of regenerating that sense of something greater than yourself. And, you know, each person will pick their own personal North star, but if I can help create an opportunity and a space for that and kind of a roadmap through, you know, what my characters do, not that
00:28:44
Speaker
you know, someone's going to read it and be like, I will be this person. But just creating a culture of allowing ourselves to connect with something that's deeper than what's pushed on us every day in the kind of mundane world, just regenerating souls.
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah, the act of rebellion could be as simple as allowing yourself to create for the sake of creation. And just, you know, like for me, I think the biggest thing to overcome is what if it's bad and just to let it be bad. Like write a bad song, write a chapter that's just rubbish, paint a little painting that's terrible, but just to do it.
00:29:30
Speaker
Mm hmm. One of the podcasters and authors I listened to has talked about that a lot of the intrinsic value of your creation of your art, whatever it is. And instead of always thinking about the monetary value of it, look at what you gain intrinsically from it, the transformation that you go through, you know, by writing that song, by writing that book, by creating that piece of art,
00:30:01
Speaker
and how valuable that is, whether other people buy it or not. And and you bringing other people along on this transformation transformational journey is a great boon. And I think we as artists want to bring people along with us for our creation, but to value our own transformation as well.
00:30:27
Speaker
which artistically leads back to resiliency because you are celebrating what the factors that you can control. You're celebrating the internal transformation that you go through and the creation that you have done, no matter what the outer world, how they react.
00:30:48
Speaker
That actually doesn't matter to the value of what you've created. Right.
Storytelling and Human Connection
00:30:54
Speaker
And also in the sense of the wanderer and returning home, you talked about wanting to share the book you've written. You want to share your story with people. And I do love these things that are so intrinsically primal within ourselves of just like sharing stories is just so human. There's nothing really more human. And just to go back to the dawn of man, you're sitting around fires sharing stories and you know it's like I think that that is this that is a part of this like return to self that I love yeah from a time where I was dealing with depression and I guess the resiliency I gained through going through that the what helped me the most
00:31:41
Speaker
was celebrating those little moments of beauty and awe and wonder, even if I didn't feel awe and wonder, even if I was just mentally appreciating the beauty of it, taking a moment to be aware of it and to, you know, just thank the universe for, for this moment of beauty led me to a place where I could feel it again.
Hope, Faith, and Charity in Resilience
00:32:10
Speaker
So kind of creating art that helps people connect to that beauty, that wonder, kind of just as a meditative thing for myself, been thinking about faith, hope, and charity and what they truly mean and how the loss of that, the the meaning of those words has affected us in terms of, you know, what are we when we're hopeless? Can can we be resilient when we're hopeless? And what is the difference between hope and faith?
00:32:43
Speaker
And faith in terms of not to ah single deity, but like you're saying, faith in something larger than ourselves And then charity has been turned into this idea of just, you know, giving what you don't want to poor people and feeling good about it. um Whereas the original meeting was love in action. It was love...
00:33:08
Speaker
didn't mean anything unless you embodied it, unless you brought it forward into the world in through action. So I guess, I don't know, that's kind of, I'm going on a tangent, but you asked me about my North stars. So recently those have been something I've been thinking about is how to regenerate those things within ourselves to which, which do build resiliency in, in so many characters that,
00:33:36
Speaker
whether it's religion or not, they have something that they believe in, something that they can hope for. And, and someone, whether it's their people or their family, their tribe, their nation, they have something that they care for more than themselves that they can be actively loving about and for.
00:33:57
Speaker
And just to close that off with a little nod back to Empire of Gold, gold I think it's really interesting how Kassan used Devabad over everything to justify atrocities and Nari has used Devabad comes first to give herself the strength to move forward, to be the hero and to be the leader.
00:34:20
Speaker
That's true. Yes. And Ali does it too. to help him make tough decisions and, and sacrifice, part of himself. Hi, Kiki.
00:34:30
Speaker
So with that, Spark of the Weeks. My Spark of the Week is a book I read a while ago, but it's on topic and I really loved it, even though I am not an athlete nor a sports scientist, but it's called The Art of Resilience. And it is about Ross Edgley, who wrote it, and it is about his Great Britain. He swam around the entire Island of Great Britain.
00:34:56
Speaker
And he it's it's a book all about how you can't have physical resiliency without the mental and emotional resiliency and how it all works together. So he weaves in classical philosophy with modern sports science. And I found it very inspiring.
00:35:15
Speaker
Will that be on our book list? Yes, I will add it to the Mythic Mirror recommendation list. And what is your spark? My spark of the week is all the spring blossoms that have been coming up.
00:35:28
Speaker
um Lots of daffodils, cherry blossoms, apple blossoms. Just this week, I've just seen lots of flowers blooming and it makes me very happy.
00:35:39
Speaker
And if you like books with strong heroines and resiliency up the wasoo...
00:35:47
Speaker
You should sign up for Mary's Kickstarter for her upcoming novel, Breaking Inlands. And we are so grateful to be spiraling through this universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.