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City of Brass, Character Dives, and Not-Evil-Kings
16 Plays6 days ago
What happens when the evil king isn't evil? What if we love characters who are diametrically opposed to each other? Deep dive with us into a look at the wonderful characters of the epic fantasy, City of Brass!
Read along with us! bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe
Let us know what you think! maryckehoe.com/mythic-connect
Get Mary's free short story here!
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Intros
00:00:00
Speaker
What if the evil king isn't evil? What truly motivates us? And what if we're on both sides now?
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for fans of fantasy and myth who want to live a rich, fulfilling, and magical life. I am your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter. All let's get into it.
00:00:34
Speaker
We are still in City of Brass, and today we're going to do a deep dive on these characters.
Podcast Style and Listener Engagement
00:00:40
Speaker
Yay! Before we get started this week, I was watching some YouTube of other YouTubers who are talking about books, and so many of them are so big and effusive, and they're giving you all the news today! And I was starting to get worried, like...
00:00:57
Speaker
That's not what we do. And do we need to? Do we need to be big and attention grabbing? Well, if we do need to be big and attention grabbing, it's too bad because my arms will not raise until my people are free.
00:01:12
Speaker
I will not emote. Exactly. I will stay subdued and slightly morose because that's the way I was raised. While Irish tap dancing.
00:01:24
Speaker
arms will not move. They will not. That's what it comes down to. That is pretty much what I came to was we are here for the book fans who want a lo-fi philosophical conversation on Sunday morning about books.
00:01:39
Speaker
Put us on in the background while you work. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah let us know in the comments if ah if you agree. We could effuse more. there Well, I don't know, but we could effuse
Mary's Undisclosed Location
00:01:52
Speaker
less.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. I don't know if I can effuse less. If you notice that I am in a different area.
Character Analysis: City of Brass
00:02:04
Speaker
Yes, I'm changing the topic.
00:02:07
Speaker
She's been kidnapped. I've been kidnapped. i am not at home. I am watching dogs and it's adorable. In im an undisclosed location. Undisclosed, very adorable location.
00:02:21
Speaker
So let's let's just, let's get right down to it. Yeah, let's get down to it. Let's about these characters. Yes. In continuing to read this book, I realized why it is that I was having trouble months and months and months ago in finishing the second one of this series.
00:02:40
Speaker
And it's because the author does such a great job of making us feel for everyone. And already in the beginning you know of this series and and still in the first third of the book, you can already see that clearly things are going to come to a head in some way. These characters don't have the same worldview. They don't have the same idea of what a successful Devabad looks like.
00:03:15
Speaker
so you know it's it's something something bad's gonna happen. What I love about this book is that you understand where everyone's coming from. And that's why I asked, what if the evil king isn't evil? I think so many books are, I find them easier to read.
00:03:33
Speaker
ah But when there's clearly a bad guy who's bad and you're like, yeah, we're going to face this person and then it'll be good. We'll get rid of the evil and we can continue on. It's very clear cut.
00:03:47
Speaker
And even when it's a complicated character, you can still see very clearly who needs to go And in this one, as you get to know the king through the prince's perspective, you see that he's...
00:04:03
Speaker
Right. person as a father but then you see him as a king to other gin and he's great he's just not a great king for the shafit you know i mean and he's not killing them all off like past rulers But for certain people of his kingdom, he's a great king. He's patient, understanding, wise. And I would say he's a more loving father than many evil king characters. um
00:04:34
Speaker
The two that I guess that first came to mind would be, while you haven't finished this series, but Throne of Glass, it's like you meet him and you're like, okay, that's the evil king.
00:04:46
Speaker
No redeeming qualities. No. And this is, you know, no spoilers. You know, you're just like that. Well, that guy's got to go. Or I've been lightly looking through the Zodiac Academy.
00:04:57
Speaker
Also evil king character. That guy's bad. No redeeming qualities. He should go. And it's just this one is so has so much more
Relationships and Idealism in City of Brass
00:05:06
Speaker
depth. And you can see that he actually truly loves his children.
00:05:11
Speaker
There's one part. I don't know if you've gotten to it yet, but where he definitely should have killed his son. And he doesn't. He has a lot of grace for him. And he's much more, i feel like his balancing of the intricacies of running this empire where nobody gets along is you you appreciate it.
00:05:32
Speaker
And you understand where his son, Al-Zad, is coming from. But also that Al-Zad is young and has these absolute morals that you just can't really have as a ruler. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, you can't focus on one problem to the extent of losing sight of everything else. Right. And I love that conversation that he has kind of in the in the first scene where we really see one-on-one conversation between the king and Ali when he's giving him, trying to widen his viewpoint of showing him all these different peoples and...
00:06:14
Speaker
And talking about when their ancestor took over and there was the huge civil war and and his son is saying, well, of course it was worth it. would you are you Are you saying you don't think it was worth it?
00:06:27
Speaker
and And the king saying, no, but I can see both sides. He also sees the cost of what his ancestor had done.
00:06:38
Speaker
Right. which, yeah, we rarely see, I think, especially in the antagonistic character. And you definitely, i mean, I definitely do love the character of Ali and his, what's the word I'm looking for, Mary? Idealism. There we go. That was hard. um And it's funny because while you're reading, because this book does chapters from different people's perspectives, which I really enjoy. And when I'm reading from his perspective, I appreciate him a lot more. And then sometimes when you're in somebody else's perspective of him, you're like, yeah, it's kind of annoying.
00:07:15
Speaker
You're kind of like a spoiled palace brat, even though he's not a palace brat. He's you know raised as a soldier, but you're like... Yeah, you know, it's hard to have religious zealots as friends for that reason, because they're just they have no give and take. It's like this is the way it is.
00:07:34
Speaker
And if you don't see it that way, then I don't like you. And you're like, well, makes it hard to have friends or run an empire. Yeah, I think when you're inside his point of view, you get the feeling of his devotion and and his yeah his idealism. And goodness. And you see where it's coming from. And then from the outside, you see how it runs up against reality.
00:08:00
Speaker
And and he you can't change the world by... Browbeating people. Yeah, yeah. And that he has his own deeply seated prejudices against um the, well, I can only think of the bad word. He calls them the fire worshippers, the. Yeah, the devas. The devas. Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, which I think is so interesting that you have this and ah yet another character that is on the quote unquote good side. He's fighting for the Shafet, but you see his prejudices coloring things and you realize, hey, if he had totally his way, his brother or his father is right.
00:08:42
Speaker
or i I think it was actually his brother who said, you know, it doesn't go well for his people when people like you get in power. Mm hmm. Yeah, and that's why he doesn't like you. Yeah, so even the courtier who... I feel like courtiers get a bad rap in fantasy. They're always bad. But the... And especially Grand Viziers. They're just... They're the worst. Wazir.
00:09:10
Speaker
Wazir, yes. And... Wazir is gone. but But even this one, even the character of the Grand Wazir is...
00:09:20
Speaker
complicated you see and the other characters are pointing out even though they don't like him showing how yeah he is doing what he thinks is best for his people he is scared that you will hurt them right and when you meet him Kaveh the Grand Wazir you meet him through Ali's perspective and so you don't really like him and then you start to meet him through these other characters and you're like well he's actually not a bad guy and he just is scared that you're gonna kill all his people yeah Just a little thing like that. It's a small detail. It can get between you. Yes.
00:09:54
Speaker
And then, okay so then jumping to then Ali's relationship with Nari, our heroine. Mm-hmm. What I like about them is that they're they're drawn together by their just curiosity and their hunger for knowledge.
00:10:10
Speaker
and that but in this way where they're each coming at it from their own angle, and they both know that, and neither of them trust the other one, but they can't help but form this bond over just their their appetite for learning.
00:10:27
Speaker
he he And I love that too. Yeah. and And on that same note, like the part of Nari that Ali doesn't trust and doesn't like, where he just, he thinks she's um shady or shifty, that the king likes her because he respects that. He sees this survivor and there's something about that that he really enjoys.
00:10:54
Speaker
Last week, everybody on TikTok guessed it right. It was from Eric. Woohoo! Now for this week's Disquirrel Delight. Do you intend to kill me?
00:11:07
Speaker
What? Oh, no. No, this is just, yeah ah you know, kind of a habit. Just keeping in practice. So where are these brothers? He grinned.
00:11:20
Speaker
What is that from? I don't know. Do you not?
Nari's Journey and Lineage Speculations
00:11:24
Speaker
No.
00:11:29
Speaker
Now let's talk about Dara and Nari. Am I in love with Dara? Yes. Am I also irritated because it just feels like he just is breadcrumbing us the whole time of like, here's a little detail that changes everything that you know and think.
00:11:49
Speaker
Here's another little detail that changes everything you know and think. You know, like it's not fair. He's been holding all the cards the whole time. Like, for example, he's taking her to Devabad and doesn't tell her till they're like halfway there that he plans to just leave her at the city gates and not go in with her.
00:12:06
Speaker
You know, he just rips her from her home and is like, don't worry, you're going to love it. Oh, by the way, I'm not going with, you know, it's just like, yeah, he's driving me nuts. But I love him anyway.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah. So why do you think he is being so cagey? I think he has a long, shady past. Which, you already kind of know, Nari gets a few glimpses into his past accidentally through healing him, and sees that obviously he's killed a lot of people.
00:12:40
Speaker
um Not his fault. We still love him. And... Obviously, after she gets to the city, everybody recognizes him.
00:12:52
Speaker
what was it? The Aftion? a They love him. He's a hero to them, to everybody else. He's a a a a war criminal. ah
00:13:07
Speaker
He's a complicated and complex character. So this war was how many? was like 1,400 years Mm-hmm. And the Jyn live for a couple hundred years.
00:13:22
Speaker
the So is this like five, four or five generations down? Yeah. so So I'm trying to think of a war. Like, is that the same to our generations or lifetimes as like the Revolutionary War?
00:13:41
Speaker
Math-wise? Someone mathed this. Maybe we should have done this part off camera because doing math is not my strong suit. Let's just assume it's the Revolutionary War. yeah They recognize him from those tales. So would be like It would be like you telling me about George Washington.
00:13:59
Speaker
Yeah. If George Washington had wiped out an entire city. And if the British and the Americans were now all shoved into one city.
00:14:10
Speaker
Right. But still we're completely distinct. And if British Americans were a lesser people in that city who are abused. Right. Tough stuff.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah. Now we're really getting to it.
00:14:27
Speaker
So then there's Nari, who is, I want to say, on this journey of self-discovery, except for kind of not, because I feel like she still doesn't believe that's who she is and has this sort of like, I feel like she's got this one foot out the door mentality of like, well, I'm just going to steal some stuff and get back to Cairo eventually. Right. She has not embraced this idea, this new earth-shattering idea of who she is. Mm-hmm.
00:14:55
Speaker
Which... I can totally understand in thinking about you're entering into this ah these factions of djinn who all hate each other. yeah And somehow they all expect to use you or be used by you in some way. Right. And definitely expect you to have many children because you're the last of your bloodline. Right. Right.
00:15:22
Speaker
Which would she? Okay, so question. Yes. Genetic speaking wise. If she's going to like reinvigor her family line, wouldn't she? Yes, I said it. Reignite? Fine. Anyway, wouldn't she have to have kids with a lot of different people to like strengthen the genetic pool?
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah. then would they have to then have kids with each other? Would you like wait a few generations and then... i don't know. like Because it's all coming from her.
00:15:57
Speaker
Well, you got to start somewhere.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's not great. Well, maybe they just well did maybe they just hope that... well I don't know, Mary. I mean, I guess it's just if she has a lot of kids and then they have kids with...
00:16:12
Speaker
Other people. that and then like three generations down the line. won't be like pure blooded, but they'll be there. It won't. Right. have Okay. Yeah. And magic works differently. you can have it like suddenly show up very strong.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah. You know, it's not like gets, it's like genetics. or It doesn't get diluted. It's, yeah it's like we've had the same nose for 500 years. Yeah, exactly.
00:16:39
Speaker
Until next year. just kidding. No. I'm just kidding. ah I don't know if you're to this part yet, but the thing that she's cracking me up because she's not doing the rituals that she's supposed to do as ah as a, as an ahid. And she's like, cause it doesn't matter. i don't, it's little blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you got here i doing a ritual you didn't believe in and it worked. And now you're here and you won't do the rituals because you don't think they work. That makes no sense.
00:17:13
Speaker
That's funny. It's her continuation of the skepticism we saw in Cairo where she can not believe in magic even though she's doing magic herself. And now she's surrounded by just gin and devas and she's saying, well, these rituals are hokey. Not doing them.
00:17:30
Speaker
Right. And then had a question too. Sorry. This is the first day I've had coffee in a month and a week. And I am pew, pew, pew, pew. do we think the king was in love with her mom maniza definitely right yeah that's a feeling i get so far so interesting yeah why wouldn't you have just married her because maybe she said i don't think she was in love with him i think she like no way i don't think yeah and who is nari's dad
00:18:02
Speaker
I don't know. that's the big secret. Because now she's here. They're like, you're Manaisa's daughter. And so Nari keeps wondering if her dad's somewhere in the city, if she might have some living family. Yeah. And everyone's being real cagey about that.
00:18:17
Speaker
Oh, because the king would is he's kind of upset about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that she is actually pure-blooded like he says she is? Because the king says that he sees through the illusion and that she's a pure-blooded Nahid and everybody else sees her as Shafit.
00:18:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. which if we haven't explained, that's when Jin has a baby with a human. Do you think that' that's true or do you think the king's lying?
00:18:47
Speaker
Oh, I thought it was true. Yeah, me too. I guess we'll find out. But I'm just going to believe anything that he says because I like him. but Even though I don't, but I do. And that's what I was trying to get to you is not only do you understand all these characters' points of view, you really like them all.
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard to do. And my sweet, sweet baby Jamshed. Yeah. You can do no wrong. Everybody likes him. Yeah. Jamshed is, so ah there's the king, Ghazan Al-Qahtani, and his two sons, Muntadir, who is going to take after him. He's going to inherit the throne. And Al-Izad, who's going to be his Cade, his guy, his leading the armies guy.
Moral Complexities of Jamshed and Ali
00:19:33
Speaker
And Muntadir has a bodyguard named Jamshed, who is the Grand Wazir's son, Kaveh's son. two different no matter whose perspective you're reading from in the book, like, he can do no wrong.
00:19:46
Speaker
He's kind. He's hardworking. He's sweet.
00:19:55
Speaker
So you talking reminds me of when we were watching Battlestar Galactica together and we had Hilo do no wrong because yeah he did not do wrong. Even when everyone else made a different decision, he chose what he found to be morally right.
00:20:12
Speaker
And he was right. whole time. The whole time. And this is interesting because so few people write those kind of characters. Like we were saying there's a lot of... antagonists or evil kings, evil characters that are just, okay, they're evil, done. yeah right No redeeming qualities.
00:20:30
Speaker
But we rarely have a good character who is just completely good that makes that right decision. And a lot of people you know say that that kind of character is boring and it can't be the main character.
00:20:45
Speaker
I think the reason Hilo wasn't boring is because you saw him struggle with each decision. And it was hard for him to go against people. So even if someone is is a do-no-wrong character, they can still be interesting.
00:21:02
Speaker
Yes. I don't think everyone has to be, you know, have some crazy flaw to be interesting. No. I think it's probably harder to write those do no wrong characters and especially as the main character and keep them interesting. I think that's, it's a flawed character is easily more interesting, but yeah, I think it can be done.
00:21:26
Speaker
And I think it's kind of gone out of style. Yeah, it's a back in my youth when I was doing acting classes. I remember was doing a play and then this scene I was crying and the director told me that it was more interesting to see me struggle not to cry for the audience than it is for the character to just cry.
00:21:48
Speaker
And i that kind of reminds me of that where it's like it's not – it's more interesting to see a character with that internal struggle than to fight themselves than it is to just see them ah you know either just like have – oh, and they do this because they have that major flaw whatever. Like it's to have a multifaceted character and to watch them process is very interesting.
00:22:12
Speaker
And yeah, you can still have internal conflict without – a clear diagram of, oh, here's the person's flaw. Here's where they make those mistakes. And this is how they're in a gray area.
00:22:26
Speaker
And that's what makes them interesting.
Hosts' Humor and Personal Joys
00:22:28
Speaker
And to answer your questions, dear listeners, I am still a bad actress. ah I don't believe it.
00:22:40
Speaker
That's because I couldn't convince you because I'm a bad actress. I know. what What we needed to do is you do all the singing and I do all the acting and we would have been a perfect performer. We would have been a double threat.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah. Not that I'm an amazing actor, but... You are. You know. She is. Oh, thank you. i mean Anyway, and we would have been better. i believe you right now. I will say I'm better at acting than I am at singing.
00:23:07
Speaker
I will say that I'm better at singing than I am at acting. See? Together we'd be unstoppable. Oh well. Oh well. who Here we are podcasting.
00:23:20
Speaker
And not singing. Although we did get a little jingle out of you. And... Beg your pardon.
00:23:31
Speaker
ah All right. Maybe we should move on to sparks. Oh, spark of the week. Yes. but Okay. My spark. um Look, I know I'm probably going pay for this down the line, but it has been, the weather has been gorgeous. And I've been taking a walk every day and just letting the sun shine on my face and feel like that moment in winter when the sun hits your body and actually warms you up and walking by the river, listening to the birds sing.
00:24:00
Speaker
That's my spark the week. Yeah, it's amazing how different, even if it's the same temperature, 32 degrees right now is so different than a 32 degrees in December. Yeah, it got up 60 this week. In terms of feeling the sun.
00:24:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, that's that part is concerning. But yes setting aside the concern into a little box and putting that in the back of my brain, I've been enjoying Well, because you do feel the sun every spring.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yes. It just spring usually doesn't come in February. Yeah. That's, that's the difference. but Moving on your spark of the week. All right. My spark is it okay. going to do some real talk here.
00:24:42
Speaker
Okay. Cause my spark is having, coming here to to house it. I didn't have all of my supplements and everything, my vitamins and all that sort of thing.
00:24:56
Speaker
And I definitely noticed because i I got to run home and grab all the things. So for for those of you out there who also have to take take things to
00:25:10
Speaker
a be alive. and Yes. ah I really, that first morning. Yeah. he Yes. Anyone else out there with pernicious anemia? ah I, that first morning of having taken things the day before, it was um such a difference. I was like, oh, I'm resilient again.
00:25:31
Speaker
Oh,
Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
00:25:32
Speaker
man. So that was my spark the week was remembering, realizing that a sometimes it is just biological reasons and it's an easy fix yeah
00:25:47
Speaker
that's beautiful thanks like when I'm cranky I just have a glass of water take a nap eat something right eat something yeah so next week we'll be continuing on with City of Brass if you haven't bought it yet you can at our link down below and support indie bookshops and the author and us.
00:26:11
Speaker
And come on and read along. And if you are on the hunt for your new favorite author, you can download Mary's short story introducing you into her world for her upcoming book at her website, maryckeyho.com. Oh, that was lovely. I was all prepping myself to say that. I'm just going to have you say it every time.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's nice. All right. Well, thank you for chatting with us. I hope you are having a wonderful day. And we are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.