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City of Brass, Not-Ancient Egypt, and Messing About with Magic
25 Plays14 days ago
Chat with us this week as we explore the beginning of City of Brass by S. A. Chakraborty! Revel in the unique historic setting and philosophize about intention, balance and survival.
Want to read along? You can support the podcast and independent bookstores by buying City of Brass from our Mythic Mirror list!
Want a free short story and a chance to explore the world of Mary C Kehoe's upcoming fantasy? Get it Here!
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
What if you didn't believe you existed? Does intention matter more than action? And what exactly is the history of Egypt after the pyramids were built?
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Mirror, the podcast for fans of myth and fantasy who want to live a magical, fulfilling life. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina
City of Brass: Characters and Magic
00:00:33
Speaker
Carter.
00:00:33
Speaker
Before we get started, if you like fantasy with lost gods, hidden magic, and ancient truth buried beneath fear and control, download my short story for free and the Seafarer's Guide, to the world of my upcoming fantasy series in the show notes below.
00:00:50
Speaker
So Carolina, do you want to introduce us to the beginning of City of Brass? Yes. um So City of Brass opens up um with Nari, our protagonist, and very quickly we learn that she's smart. Is that how you say her name?
00:01:08
Speaker
um Yes. Is that right? it wrong? What do you say? I don't know. Nihiri, but I don't know that it's right. I'm not listening to it, so I'm just saying in head. I think, yeah, when I read it the first time I listened to it last night, that's why I have Nari, but I remember reading it and reading Nihiri.
00:01:27
Speaker
Well, we'll go with the audiobook. Okay. um Right away, you can tell she's very smart. She's very manipulative. I love this first chapter because it's such a, I feel like it's a master class in world building. Because immediately you feel sweaty, you feel grimy, you can smell all the smells, and you get this sense of this extremely smart woman who's had to hide her light under a bushel because if she like lets any of her true self out, she gets in trouble.
00:02:02
Speaker
um She has to pretend to be just dumb enough to swindle people, kind of.
Historical and Cultural Insights in City of Brass
00:02:08
Speaker
um And then you you you get the first little like sense of magic in the in just like the first few paragraphs because she can sense things medically about the people she's talking to, which is also fascinating because I don't i can't think of another fantasy book that has like a ah medical kind of basis to the magic like this one does.
00:02:35
Speaker
um there's certainly healers but this one like really gets like it's like very met very medical language which i'll also say i'm a very sensitive person to that and i could still read the book so if you're listening and you're like oh i don't know if i can listen to this i'm kind of squeamish i promise i out squeamish you and i well i but i probably skimmed some paragraphs but i got through the book hello is that for an intro monologue That is great. Speaking of the world building, I completely agree. I felt like it was almost a pity when they leave Cairo because I wanted to know more about the Franks taking over and the Turks. And and it's interesting because she's speaking Arabic, right?
00:03:23
Speaker
Egyptians now speak Arabic at this point in history. Oh, right, right. Sorry. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So... this this intermeshing of all these cultures that is a slice of Egypt that we don't get to see very often.
00:03:39
Speaker
In history classes, we always, you know, it's ancient Egypt and what we think is, you know, how how ancient Egypt worked and everything. And then I feel like after that, it's just kind of, well, we leave Egypt and never talk about it again.
00:03:57
Speaker
And this is such an interesting time. Yeah. In history classes or fantasy, like you, fantasy is usually set in, well, as the witches just went through in witches abroad, all the different story tale, story tales, like you get the deep, dark, woodsy castle, Transylvania feeling. You get the, fairy tale more like northern Europe you get the English countryside but you don't really get a lot of fantasy I mean in growing up with the fantasy I grew up with and you grew up with is this part of Egypt is not explored or it's it's a very odd it's a very new place to have a fantasy set I'm trying to think of other
00:04:47
Speaker
I mean, now now there are fantasies set in, if not Egypt at least, different cultures other than based, you know, Europe centric. But am trying to think of other ones that are specific to Egypt and that time.
00:05:06
Speaker
Cause I, we did grow up with some like folklore of like the djinn and things like that. I knew about, ah you know, the djinn building Solomon's temple and and those types of things.
00:05:19
Speaker
I had a pretty good awareness of, but, ah but actually kind of sunk into a real historical time is what makes this, instead of...
00:05:34
Speaker
a fairy tale feeling to oh this this is real this really happened you know I can see how it mixes perfectly with with history at that time and and then now I want to go research that time period in Egypt I knew the Greeks took over Egypt I did not know that the Franks took over Egypt at some point did you know that the Franks were the French yes I did Wow.
00:06:05
Speaker
So smart. It took me a while. It took me a while. It took me a while to figure that out. She had said, she had to say something about French several times for me to connect those dots.
00:06:20
Speaker
But you know how it is when you're you know caught up in the rest of the book and you're you're not used to thinking like with a historical lens. Yeah, you kind of expect all of these people to be fantasy people, and then your brain's connecting it to actual history, which I want to know when they stopped speaking Egyptian.
00:06:38
Speaker
Now I want to go and research Egypt a lot
Upcoming Book Kickstarter
00:06:41
Speaker
more. You have to do a deep dive. i almost I wanted to before this podcast, but it didn't happen because we are recording much earlier in the week than usual because I will be at a book marketing conference this weekend.
00:06:56
Speaker
Because you have a book coming out. I do. Are we telling this? Okay, yeah. We can tell this. Yeah, I will be doing a Kickstarter launch for my book.
00:07:07
Speaker
And mostly because, well, all the way because Kickstarter allows you to have direct interaction with the buyers and you don't have a big store between you and the buyer, which is what direct interaction means. Yeah. Right, but so that people can buy your book directly from you without having to give any money to any big corporation.
00:07:30
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I love beautiful books, which as it as an independent author and most traditional authors don't get the chance to create beautiful hardback additions to their books. So
Nari's Magical Denial and Self-Reflection
00:07:44
Speaker
i'm really excited. yeah I've been poring over designs and talking to my cover artists and coming up with some really cool designs that I'm really excited about sharing.
00:07:56
Speaker
I can't wait to see. Yay. yay Now back to City of Brass, I found it so interesting that in order to survive, she has not only to the rest of the world, but she truly believes that magic doesn't exist, even though she has those magical powers that you talked about.
00:08:18
Speaker
So she's using magic while completely believing that magic isn't real and that it's all just tricks because she does tricks.
00:08:29
Speaker
here And i found that so interesting that you can, because I think it's true. i think we do it in order to fit in We trick ourselves into believing like when you want to, in order to fit in with a crowd that isn't you, you negate a part of yourself to such an extent that you can forget that it exists.
00:08:59
Speaker
Even though if you're using it, you you you shut it off.
Belief and Rituals
00:09:03
Speaker
It's the like dichotomy of of using magic and thinking it doesn't exist and and how we do that in our own lives of having that internal self and the external self and you negate or or deny the internal self to such an extent that you forget it's there. And even if it comes through, like with her, how she still is obviously using it, it's, she's still in such denial that it's it's not even ringing any bells for her.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah. Until the jinn brings it up until he, he, he's saying, you have these powers and yet you live like a street rat. Like, what are you doing?
00:09:47
Speaker
Right. And she's, you know, you don't know what I've been through sort of thing. And it's true. She, she's had to survive and that has pummeled her into a shape that isn't her.
00:10:00
Speaker
Right. But what's interesting of what really unlocks it is the ritual that she does. She performs a ritual that she doesn't even believe in.
00:10:13
Speaker
And that unlocks this power that's inside of her that unleashes this magic on the world that she doesn't even believe in. But by going through them, I thought that was really interesting, but that by going through the motions of this ritual, like it's that because we've talked so much about belief and she does not believe in it.
00:10:35
Speaker
But I think it's important to note that just because you don't believe in it, you have to be very careful about the rituals you partake in. And with her, she she used her native tongue for one part of it, which was the the power that the ritual needed to become alive.
00:10:55
Speaker
And yeah, it's the power of our own words. even So you're right, even if we don't think we believe it, that power exists whether you believe in it or not.
00:11:07
Speaker
And that you might tap into it accidentally is a... Right. right i remember i went to a ah it was offseason and it was a hunted house and so the person was giving us a tour and showing us you know what they had created for the haed house and and how they worked it and everything And the theme of one whole section was voodoo. And he was like, and here's a voodoo altar and this symbol, it's a real voodoo symbol. And dahdada and i and I'm walking through going, this is a real belief system. Like there are people who really believe this and and you're using it as scary decoration. And you've got an actual altar with, yeah, with incense. And I'm just...
00:11:58
Speaker
and worried what you have woken without
Ethics and Morality in Fantasy Worlds
00:12:02
Speaker
thinking about it. Because you don't the rules. You don't know the rules. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean someone else doesn't and that it still might have power.
00:12:13
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I was like, and also, this is kind of insulting to people who believe in this. <unk> But at the time, i was very worried about my own self walking through it Mm-hmm.
00:12:27
Speaker
yeah Like, no, I do not let incense off the altar. Thank you. Thank you so much.
00:12:35
Speaker
Now for our Discworld Delight, we had one guess. Monstrous Regiment. Ha-ha. Incorrect. Hmm. This is the first time I've stumped TikTok. Mm-hmm.
00:12:50
Speaker
It is from WeFreeMen. All right. Are ready for this week's Discworld Delight? You bet your bippy I am. but don't have a bippy. I think you do.
00:13:02
Speaker
What is a bippy? You don't want to know. A bippy is a bit of a if you know, you know situation. Then I don't. But you have one.
00:13:12
Speaker
Take your word for it. I wish you wouldn't. All right. Now we're going to get to goodwes this week's Discworld Delight. They must have brought the horse in before the soldiers had hidden in it. We know what's going to happen. We could make a fortune.
00:13:30
Speaker
How exactly? Well, the boy hesitated. We could bet on horses, that sort of thing. Great idea, said Rinswind. That last name was a hint.
00:13:43
Speaker
Yeah, so going back to her belief... which it's understandable for her coming from a survival situation, but letting fear shape your world to such an extent that it blinds you to possibilities because you're so focused on succeeding in the way that people around you can succeed that you don't even view the talents inside you as, as assets. Yeah.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, and i I was going to ask you about that because it is interesting. When we first meet her, she is, um you know, this is to that, like, does the intention the intention matter more than the action? Because the way she is living is not, you know, it's not an honest living.
00:14:36
Speaker
Does that matter? Because she is just surviving. Or, you know, like what does does that matter? That's my question to you. I would have to quote Granny Weatherwax.
00:14:50
Speaker
Just matters which way you're facing. Yeah, I think it's it's a gray area where of the weight of harm versus help.
00:15:01
Speaker
that you are creating. So with the guy that she swindles, she sees that nothing's wrong with him, but she's going to make enough money off of him knowing that he can afford it. She's not, you know, stealing from someone who will go hungry because of it. So it's kind of a, yes, that's a little bit of situational ethics, but when you're in an imperfect world and you're trying to survive as a woman in a time when women shouldn't be working, what's left to you.
00:15:34
Speaker
So in my mind, she is, yeah, it's, it's a gray area. She's not causing harm, your irreplaceable harm or, or, uh,
00:15:50
Speaker
you know, whatever, harm, they can't be fixed. You know, he'll lose some money, but he's going to be all right. And then it sounded like she did try to help people who did, you know, when she, at the, at the czar, she senses one of the women has a growth in her breast.
00:16:11
Speaker
and And she didn't have time to experiment to see if she could help then then at that point. But it was clear that that is something she would do, that that given the time and the energy, she would try to help people when she could.
00:16:28
Speaker
So, you know, and she doesn't understand her magic, but she understands that sometimes she can help. And so she helps when she can and she takes the money when she can't.
00:16:40
Speaker
Right. Long answer short, I think she's facing the right direction. Right. Well, and it makes it, I felt more compelling. Like we were talking about, like how you're just right in it with her on the streets.
00:16:56
Speaker
And you're, it's just more of a believable character, I feel like, than if you have someone who's had to fend for themselves their whole lives. And they're like, but I won't steal.
00:17:08
Speaker
Right. well Yeah. You can't really be a moral absolutist when you're forced to live on the streets. Yeah. You, you find where you can be good when you can be good, I guess.
Karma and Moral Decisions
00:17:22
Speaker
Right.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah. Which actually there is a story in, um, I can't remember what you punish shot.
00:17:34
Speaker
But in Hinduism, there's a story of a god that is incarnate, and there is a demon that is killing many, many men in a war. And I can't remember if he's a demon or not, but the enemy is killing many, many men.
00:17:55
Speaker
And so the god incarnate, he who I think is Bhima, He cut the, he kills him, but with a unhonorable or dishonorable blow.
00:18:07
Speaker
It's, I think he attacks him below the belt. They're the point of the story is that even a God can make karma incarnate in this imperfect world, because sometimes you're faced with a decision that there isn't a morally absolutist correct answer because,
00:18:27
Speaker
Either way, you know, it's it's either he remains honorable and lets thousands and thousands of men die because he picked his honor over their lives, or he sacrifices his honor in order to kill this person in order to save all these lives.
00:18:44
Speaker
h So which one's better, which one's worse? and And then i think what keeps it apart from... the idea of, you know, we'll do evil so that good may come, which has led to horrible atrocities is that the idea is you will have to pay the balance at some point.
00:19:09
Speaker
So even if your intention was good, you still created this level of you know, dishonesty or or whatever it is so that that's going to have to come into play and balance at some point.
00:19:23
Speaker
And, know, the A book did this really well. It's called Om by Talbot Mundi.
00:19:33
Speaker
And spoiler alert, ah in this book, the it I think he's a Buddhist monk. He saves this baby from...
00:19:43
Speaker
um the people in this valley who don't allow outsiders, so they would have killed the child. And he says, in order to keep this baby alive, I swear that I will keep her in the valley.
00:19:56
Speaker
for the for the whole of her life. And he knows he's lying. He knows that she's an important person that will, you know, she she has a story to tell and live. And so he does take her out. He smuggles her out of the valley and there's the whole book's adventure happens. And then at the end, he returns to the valley, even though he knows that the people there are going to kill him because he lied to them.
00:20:23
Speaker
And he said, even though I did it for a good cause, I still broke my word. So I will, I will pay for that.
Future Plans and Recommendations
00:20:30
Speaker
That's a, that was a bit of a tangent. Um, no, it makes sense. And it'll be interesting to see if she balances it out or if it's, or if it doesn't matter.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah. There was never enough harm done to require it. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't think she's really harming anyone. I mean,
00:20:51
Speaker
Yes. Relieving some people of money, but well I will actually, she accidentally harms the girl in the ritual. Right. So that is the one that I would say was unsettling.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that one is, and that's the one she feels guilty for. She doesn't feel guilt for, you know, stealing from rich people, but this one really does get to her because a, she didn't mean to do it and be,
00:21:20
Speaker
it's really not good. Yeah. All right. And that's all we have for this week as we have only been reading the book for a few days. And if you'd like to read along with us, that would be wonderful.
00:21:34
Speaker
It's city of brass. And if you don't have the book, you can find it on our bookshop list in the link in the show notes. And for our sparks this week, Carolina, do you have a spark? Yeah.
00:21:47
Speaker
My spark this week is a broad, general, just my family. um ah just i have a wonderful family who is incredibly supportive and loving and and generous, and I'm very grateful for them.
00:22:03
Speaker
Every single one of them. That's nice. How's back feel, by the way? it's get It's getting better. better. good Well, after that very touching spark, mine's not as great. mine Yes, it is.
00:22:19
Speaker
Mine is a off-topic book. It is a nonfiction called The Wealth Money Can't Buy. And it's by Robin Sharma. And I really enjoyed it. And I felt it is inspiring without being preachy.
00:22:35
Speaker
Does it talk about the five different kinds of wealth? Yeah. Did I talk about this already? Yeah. No, you didn't. um Somebody actually in my office talked about it and they couldn't remember. All five, they were like, it's time.
00:22:47
Speaker
it's ah So money is one of them. but then You can't buy money wealth? What? Oh, these are just the types of wealth. Yeah. yeah okay Okay, that makes more sense. So health? Health and time family and time. time And money.
00:23:03
Speaker
Oh, it's like ah something greater than yourself. Like having craft is the last one. So work, craft, C-R-A-F-T, work that you can believe in and and work and enjoy.
00:23:18
Speaker
Oh, that is a wealth. It is. And that's that. And that's that. I liked it. Thank you for joining us. It's not always worth it, but it is easy.
00:23:31
Speaker
Thank you for chatting with us this week. We are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.