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Kingdom of Copper, Loved Ones, and More Lies
19 Plays11 days ago
Mary and Carolina jump into S.A. Chakraborty's Kingdom of Copper, it's been five years since City of Brass ended and things have gone from tense to deadly. Who do you love? Who's starting to scare you? And who can never catch a break?
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Transcript
Introduction & Hosts Reunion
00:00:00
Speaker
Why is Devabad falling apart? What are the Marid really up to? And do you have what it takes to be Devabad-y? Did you just say dead body?
00:00:11
Speaker
A Devabad-y!
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of fantasy books who want to live rich and fulfilling and deep lives. I am your host, Mary C. Kehoe.
00:00:36
Speaker
And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter. And we are in the same room. and Together. How exciting. This is very exciting. Now, you're holding tea, so I'm going to hold tea. We've actually never been in the same room together before in our lives. No one has ever seen us in the same room It's true.
00:00:57
Speaker
Except to you. We would not lie to you. All right.
Analyzing the King of Devabad
00:01:00
Speaker
Carolina. Yes. We have just started the second book. Yes. How do you feel? Everything's gone wrong.
00:01:08
Speaker
Everyone's suffering. It's a great book. So good. First, how do you feel about the king? Well, we haven't really seen him. Yeah.
00:01:18
Speaker
That is what I found so interesting. You don't. Okay. The last thing we see of him in the first book in City of Brass is him the heartbreaking scene of him banishing his son, knowing that his son's going to die.
00:01:33
Speaker
Thinking his son is going to die. When Nari smiles at him. Oh, right, right, right, right. You do see him again. but But you don't see, like the last time you see him talk. Yeah. And then the second book begins. We jump five years and not until you're a quarter of the way through the book do you even see the king.
00:01:55
Speaker
But you see all the effects of things he's done. And you hear about Nari's mom saying how she was controlled in the same way that he's now controlling Nari through anytime you do something wrong, he'll, you know, hurt someone you love.
00:02:10
Speaker
And you see him, he had done that with Ali as well. And so, we go ahead. Or just a stranger who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nari, ah doesn't she go into a shop not even thinking about it? And he brings the shopkeepers in and he's about to kill them. And she swears to never go out without his permission again. Right.
00:02:32
Speaker
Right. Yeah. because it's Yeah. Yeah. For her because there's not really anyone she loves, he just always takes it out on a Deva. Right. Which is what Nasreen says at the end of book one. She's saying this always happens. Whenever any of us step out of line, he kills hundreds or something like that. Right. Yeah. So I i begin to wonder...
00:02:54
Speaker
He says he wants peace, but I was thinking about this as I was gearing up my courage to begin book two. um He says he wants peace, but it it's on his own terms because he's not, he's keeping both the Devas and the Shafits as um unhappy factions of his city. Like what, but like, yes, I know that there is the religious problem of Shafetz and Deva's thinking that, you know, they shouldn't exist. But I think if you start to make both of them happy in other ways, especially economic ways, like, and and they start to interact with each other, that will naturally fade with time.
00:03:40
Speaker
Like, plenty of religions have evolved out of... Hating each other. And plenty haven't. It's not so much that he wants peace. He just wants quiet. Or I think he wants peace, but in his own terms, under his control. And if he keeps both of these factions weak, then he can have a semblance of peace with him in control.
00:04:07
Speaker
That's my theory. So you want to know if I still like him? Yeah. I don't know. See, that's how I feel too. Because I just got to the scene. I just got to where you first see him again. And you don't see him again until he sees Ollie. Which thought was an interesting choice.
00:04:26
Speaker
And you see him being the king. You see him being manipulative. And you see him doing the same thing that he's done to everybody else. And you also see him just so happy to see his son again.
00:04:39
Speaker
And and they're both both things are true at the same time. He's controlling his son and he's doing things that is heartbreaking to his son. But he also loves him. And you're like, oh, this is this rough.
00:04:58
Speaker
So this brings me to my next question for you.
Forgiveness in Fiction vs. Reality
00:05:03
Speaker
What if we forgave people or understood people in our real lives the same way we do in books?
00:05:09
Speaker
No. Absolutely not. Because, Mary, yes people in books are nuanced people. And people in real life are. people in real life are basically, they're 2D. They might as well be on a page. Okay? They're not real.
00:05:30
Speaker
Whereas these characters have so much that enriches them. Yeah, you know I think you're right. No, but it is true that in books you get to feel things. Like I was thinking about this with Dara specifically.
00:05:44
Speaker
You already know what he's done. And you but you feel how it is breaking him. You feel the regret and you know, you know, OK, he was ordered to do it. But there's war criminals that say the same thing. I was just following orders and that never works. But with those people in real life, you don't feel regret.
00:06:05
Speaker
You don't you can't step into their head and and feel what they're feeling and know that it's actually real. Right. and i And so that I think that's one of the reasons that we can forgive in books easier. And, you know, it it didn't happen to us.
00:06:18
Speaker
It's not actually in real life. Right. Like, yeah, he's a he's a mean guy, but he's a good father.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, well, and Dara, I just, my heart breaks pretty much in every scene with him. Yeah, let's get to Dara because we, the first, first of all, like they bring him back like that.
00:06:42
Speaker
If you didn't know we were going to spoil the book, but we did in the last episode. We'll put it in the, we'll put it. Listen, read the first quarter of the book. Before watching this episode.
Dara's Transformation and Struggles
00:06:53
Speaker
um Because at the end of the book, when she when they're talking about getting the ring to Maniza and that they think that she can bring him back, I thought that would be maybe at the end of the second book.
00:07:05
Speaker
I thought it was going to be this whole like long quest to find Maniza and get her this ring. No, right away. She's already brought him back. And she has brought him back as his worst fear.
00:07:17
Speaker
He is in the shape of an Ifrit. He does not have Suleiman's blessing anymore. he he's He's in the shape of the people who enslaved him.
00:07:27
Speaker
Or the Ifrit. The demons. The demons. came back. So I made this joke to Carolina after we finished the book. I texted her that if the if the end of City of Brass was an RPG, a role-playing game,
00:07:42
Speaker
It would look something like this. Dara, I want to break into the palace and save Nari and get out of the city. God, for the DM. Roll d20. I actually haven't played, so it might be roll for, you know, luck. I don't know. But roll d20.
00:08:01
Speaker
ah He rolls. He gets a one. God, you fail, utterably. You break Nari's trust. You kill a lot of people while enslaved, you die, and you get brought back as a demon.
00:08:16
Speaker
That's about how the book's going so far. That's it. So, yeah, not only is he brought back in his in the shape he hates most, and he's outside of, of yeah, the what he considers.
00:08:28
Speaker
Well, the Devas considered it a curse, but they still think the Ifrit are evil. Like, he he he has a visceral reaction now to his own shape.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yes. Okay, let's talk about the lake. Have you gotten there yet? No? All right. Let's talk about the lake. of So because the Marid used Ali to kill Dara, now the Ifrit say that mar the Marid owe Dara one. Like, you know, he can call in a favor.
00:09:01
Speaker
In order to attract the Marid's attention, they have to kill a human who is still honors the Marid, who are, you know, there's not a lot of them. So, of course, Dara has to do it because he won't let his Nahid do it, who is... Maniza. Maniza, thank you.
00:09:15
Speaker
and And this part is so sad because he says, like, this is this is against what Solomon said. This is what he said. We're not supposed to be dealing with humans, and killing them is definitely against the rules. Like, this is abomination.
00:09:29
Speaker
And then it's either him or his beloved Nahid doing it. So, of course, he says he'll do it. And he doesn't want to. And then he thinks... He's thinking about the Marid, and then he remembers that the king had said that Nari looks the way she does because of a Marid curse.
00:09:48
Speaker
And that's what he thinks about in order to be able to get himself to kill this innocent human who honors the Marids. And we know that that's not even true. let The king lied.
00:09:59
Speaker
so you're just like, oh, another mark on his soul. And it's because people are lying to him. And then the Marids say to him, you're still serving those who have done this to you who have broken you, who've done this to you.
00:10:13
Speaker
Which brings me to my point, which is, like, it's kind of like we know the king is bad, kind of. Yeah. But the secret bad guy, i feel like, is Maniza.
00:10:26
Speaker
Mm-hmm. There's there is a very important line that the priest, again, our beloved priest, can we see him again. um And he says to Nari, or no, maybe it was Nasreen.
00:10:39
Speaker
This very important line that he says to someone. I can't remember. Maybe it was both of them. But he says... Oh, yeah, he's talking to Nazreen and reminding her that the Devas have also done horrible things and not to forget that and that Maniza would talk that way and it was bad for her soul.
00:11:01
Speaker
Right. So I think you're right. you're totally I think you're totally right that in the end, I think this is going to be like the king against Maniza and neither one of them are...
00:11:13
Speaker
technically good like i think they're both willing
Speculations on Parentage and Loyalty
00:11:16
Speaker
to kill innocents in order to have power and everyone in the middle is going to suffer for it yeah speaking of everyone in the middle were you understanding that jam shed is maniza and cave's son that is what they are leading us to believe okay yeah because why don't know but I didn't like it. You didn't? Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
Dara walks in and Kaveh is walking out of her her private sleeping quarters. And I was like, I didn't like that at yeah I didn't really have an emotion about it.
00:11:56
Speaker
i was like, yeah, that makes sense. oof Do it on your own time. Don't put it in the book. I want to hear it. i don't want to read it ah So then imagine how mad the king would be.
00:12:10
Speaker
Very, very mad. But it also makes sense as to why she never married him. She's messing around with the wazir. So she says that, which, you know, who everybody's lying, so who knows. But we have seen him do it to other people. So I tend to believe that she was controlled. He would hurt her brother every time she would go against him.
00:12:31
Speaker
Which way is he? See, I don't know. Is he dead? It seems like he's dead. It's a little suspicious that Maniza's still around and her brother's not to be seen.
00:12:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, because they supposedly died at the same time. so but where is he? But where is he? Exactly. I've been wondering that, too. I don't like it. No. You know what else I don't like? What? I don't like that Jamshed is walking around with a cane. So i don't know if we've already said, but this book starts five years after the last book. Yeah, we did. You said that.
00:13:04
Speaker
So, Jamshed is alive, thank goodness, but he didn't wake up. You find out he didn't wake up for years. A year. A year. And he's still healing, but he's walking with a cane. He's no longer Muntadir's right-hand man. He's been demoted, and he's pretty depressed.
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah. And we know why it's going on, but he doesn't, and neither does Nari. Oh, yeah, because her she can't help him. her magic Her magic isn't working because whatever that seal is that's on him, the like, tattoo thing.
00:13:37
Speaker
That keeps his... Nari-ness. No, Nahid-ness. Nahid-ness at bay. yeah so he Yeah, so he can't be healed, and his innate healing powers are not working.
00:13:51
Speaker
So it's just this slow, slow going. And they don't know why. So they keep trying. Right. Which then answers the question that he doesn't know. Because in the end of the first book, we didn't know if he knew who he was or not.
00:14:04
Speaker
And he mcdon't. He don't. doubt't Also, speaking of people in the middle who are suffering. I feel like... See, this is there's two ways that Dara's storyline could go. Either...
00:14:16
Speaker
There is some healing and he and he is able to heal and and be unbroken, at least somewhat, and happy. Or they just keep doing this to him and he just keeps breaking himself for for his Nahids and then death is relief.
00:14:37
Speaker
Because I'm afraid that's where we're going, especially since we actually, he got to have, or we got to see him have a near-death experience where he gets to see his sister and he is outside of a garden and he knows once he goes into the garden, there's people there to meet him.
00:14:55
Speaker
And you get the feeling that that's like, you know, he's he's being able to heal and rest before meeting his like the next yeah his maker or the you know and which I thought was really cool you don't get to see that very often in fantasy books of the other side so I really liked that But it definitely made me feel because then it it hurts to come back. And he has that comment about like when the Jyn, when a Jyn sees him and says, you're supposed to be dead. And he says, I was. And now I'm back. And he's, there's bitterness about it.
00:15:31
Speaker
So I feel like his, at the end, he's going to die. That's what I feel like. but but it But I feel like he'll be happy about it. We might be happy about it at that point.
A Lighthearted Discworld Detour
00:15:41
Speaker
I know. And I just don't. That's going to be hard.
00:15:44
Speaker
Right. I don't want to see him become a monster. don't. He already is one. Shut your mouth. Shut up.
00:15:58
Speaker
Would you like to lighten the moment with a Discworld delight? Yeah, let's do. Let's switch to good old Sir Terry Pratchett.
00:16:08
Speaker
Everybody did so good. Pyramids, pyramids, pyramids across the board. yeah You people are amazing guessers. Now for this week. Do you want to go back and forth?
00:16:19
Speaker
Oh, okay, yeah. Where heading from? I'll start.
00:16:24
Speaker
Caves, said Brutha. Snakes. But still caves in conjunction with snakes. Poisonous snakes? Guess.
00:16:33
Speaker
What's that from? Dun, dun, dun.
00:16:39
Speaker
Alright, now that we're back, let's talk about the actual two main characters of this book. We haven't really yet.
Nari and Muntadir's Marriage Dynamics
00:16:47
Speaker
So, Nari, she marries Muntadir.
00:16:52
Speaker
And I thought that in this book of terrors, that her wedding night was one of the few tender behind scenes in the whole book.
00:17:04
Speaker
They don't do anything. Wontadeer says, I will not touch you tonight. And he's very respectful. And they have a like a moment of connection. Yeah. And I was really relieved about that.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I think of Montadir, I think of the line from Gem Shed when they're looking at he and Nari are looking at the statue of Dara and she says he he asks if she got if she goes there and she said, no, that's not the Dara I knew.
00:17:40
Speaker
and And then you know she says, you I shouldn't be talking to you about this, of all people. and And he says that he understood and that it's hard to see what this city turns our loved ones into or something like that. And you know he's talking about Montedir.
00:17:57
Speaker
and And it is hard. You see, and Nari sees it too, where she talks about how She looks at him as someone that the king's already broken and that she refuses to follow suit. he And then now Ali's coming back and Montadir's terrified that he's going to be killed.
00:18:20
Speaker
That Montadir's going to be killed so that Ali can be the heir. You know, he... The king, speaking of what ah my my guess about him, that that sending him away, breaking his heart, now when Ali comes back and sees him and the reader sees him for the first time, he looks
Ali's Return and Economic Challenges
00:18:38
Speaker
100 years older. Like he's really suffered. And Devabad has suffered, which we know they mentioned that Ali's mother, they started a trade war. you know so So they are putting the economic pressure on Devabad for what they did to Ali.
00:18:56
Speaker
or what he did to Ali. um But why, like, it seems like he's lost it a little bit. It seems like the king's lost his ability to rule a little bit because not there's not there's the economic problem but now like when ollie comes back the first thing he sees which and you wonder is did the king do this on purpose because nobody met him and this is set up to be right on your way to the to the palace so and and you know how much he controls things So you wonder if this was a point he was making to Ali about this is what Devabad is and testing him.
00:19:35
Speaker
Because he the first thing he sees is a slave market, pretty much, where Jin, where his people, his tribe, are not selling but taking money for Shafet. So other Jin could buy these Shafet as like, oh, this is your long-lost relative. You could have him back if you pay us.
00:20:00
Speaker
And And it's horrible. And so Ali comes over and and sells, he gives him his Zephalchor in order to save this father and daughter.
00:20:10
Speaker
And when he meets the king and in the king says something about, right as he's leaving, the king says, I also arranged for something else of yours to be returned.
00:20:23
Speaker
Make sure you're more careful with it in the future or something like that. And he gets back to his room, which has not been touched before. It looks exactly like it did the day he left, except for he can tell his dad has been going to Ollie's prayer rug and sitting there. This guy's heartbroken. So it's like his, the dad, you feel so much for the dad part of the king. Mm-hmm.
00:20:48
Speaker
But then the king part of the king is out there letting, he's having slave markets, which is so very against their whole tribe's ethos. You know, when Ali comes, he comes with two of his tribesmen from the north who've never been to Devabad, and they are just revolted at seeing this. You know, to this, this is an utter betrayal of their people.
00:21:14
Speaker
Right. It does seem that with Ali went the King's heart insanity and it does seem that you know, Muntadir, and maybe that is why Muntadir is so afraid of him because he tends, even though he's a bit insufferable, he tends to win people over and people believe in him and follow him and Muntadir just doesn't have that, don't know if it's charisma or just like, because Ali has these these principles that he's very passionate about and Muntadir's just kind of like, eh, I would like to read poetry and drink wine. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think they...
00:21:52
Speaker
have They both have it, but to different types of people. I think the nobles of all of the tribes love Montedire and feel comfortable with him and feel like they can talk to him and are unnerved by Ali.
00:22:06
Speaker
But the military... And the, you know, the everyday people would, and the rest of his tribe outside of Devabad would definitely follow Ali.
00:22:18
Speaker
And it doesn't help anything that he sent Ali away to die only to have him become this hero to this tribe. Yeah. I don't think we've touched on that, but he creates an oasis with his new water powers. And this tribe that's been suffering and starving is now all a sudden flourishing.
00:22:36
Speaker
Um, And on that note, while he's bringing this prosperous energy and life force to these people, Devabad is suffering. They're not getting the taxes from different tribes. they The hot set is being set. Muntadir and Ali's sister is being set up to marry an old nobleman, basically, for his money.
00:22:56
Speaker
It's all looking very bleak. Yeah. And oh that that's actually something I wanted to talk about with Ali. And This is something I thought we could take in some ways for ourselves of He, so he loses everything.
Ali's Growth and Tribal Support
00:23:14
Speaker
He's, he's sent out into the desert to be killed. And instead, yes, he uses, he's got the magic now so that, you know, they, they save him because water is pouring out of him.
00:23:27
Speaker
So he could have just been really bitter and, and locked down in himself on, on everything that he's lost and just revolving around that.
00:23:38
Speaker
And, you know, practicing fighting and and getting everybody geared up to fight and and get his life back because the life that he had is what matters, you know. And instead, he continues with his passions of of engineering and science. And he doesn't just, oh, I have magic, look, water, great.
00:23:59
Speaker
like now you have water and and i found a spring over here it's great we've got water you know and instead he's like okay we're gonna irrigate this whole place and then we're gonna study from the humans and find out how they do it and bring all of this science and and you know here's a well that i've discovered and now we're gonna irrigate it over to here and these lands over here will have water and you learn about all the engineering that he's done and and how he spies on humans to learn things.
00:24:31
Speaker
And it just... i It's so endearing and and inspiring. because And his faith is renewed too. Yeah. and and and And that part of it, he didn't do with magic. He did it with his own prowess and his mind. mind prowe His mind prowess. prowess.
00:24:50
Speaker
So we could use our mind palace and prowess.
00:24:55
Speaker
If we just tried. We just had some. If we... Anyway. Anyway. Oh, apropos of nothing.
00:25:06
Speaker
Apropos of nothing. I think, this is just an interesting guess of mine. I think that the Deva religion is based on Zoroastrianism.
00:25:17
Speaker
Because, yeah, because it's the original, well, I don't know who's to say what's original, but it was the religion of um Persia before Islam.
00:25:30
Speaker
So all the rest of the jim, all the rest of the jims. The jinn all follow Islam and the devas follow the, you know, what the jinn call them fire worshipers, which fire is a huge part of Zoroastrianism and, you know, the creator. So anyway, it just sounds, sounds very Zoroastrianism, which I like in terms of history.
00:25:57
Speaker
It's cool. I love it when, even if it's not spelled out, you kind of, you get the feeling you're like, oh. You get a taste here and there. Yeah. That is familiar. Yeah. Okay. So then back to Nari.
Nari's Strength Amidst Deception
00:26:10
Speaker
She is who I feel the most for and am also the most impressed by because absolutely everyone is lying to her. The king is lying to her.
00:26:21
Speaker
Muntadir is probably the most honest person with her in her life where they're like, we have no choice. We don't love each other. Here's where we're at. And even on their wedding night when she she has this moment of honesty with him where she's like, and I thought if I was nice to you, maybe I could get you to rebel against your father.
00:26:37
Speaker
And he's like, I am a Katani through and through. i will never revolt against my father. And it's it's kind of this moment of like that it's cold, but it's also like just true honesty. Here's the line. But Dara lied to her.
00:26:52
Speaker
Miss Reen is lying to her. Yeah, she doesn't know that Dara's alive. She doesn't know Dara's alive. years. She doesn't know Manizah's alive. Her mother is alive. And I will say on behalf of Nazreen, she is trying to get Manizah to ah let her tell Nari.
00:27:08
Speaker
But Manizah won't let her. And she is she leveraged her marriage to Montadir to get so much out of the king, which much of she's given away to start hospitals, to start to her old school a girl's school, to do a lot of charitable things. So, I mean, she is absolutely doing her best. And it's just like, it's just does not have a firm foundation. She's just standing on shaky ground at all times, has zero freedom. Yeah. And when her and, and is it,
00:27:40
Speaker
Jamshed or Jemshed? Is it E or A? i say Jamshed. Okay. when When he and Nari... try to help these Davis that are being like their house is being ransacked by the by the police by the guard right and the husband and the son are being arrested and they try to help and the and the guard is horrible to her and and says that he would happily kill her you know he eat and and he's talking to the wife of the emir
00:28:11
Speaker
She's that powerless. That was, I don't know, that shocked me. That was a a really hard part to read. Yeah, because even when the woman says to her, how can you protect me when you cannot even protect yourself?
Devabad's Political Instability
00:28:26
Speaker
And it's just, you realize how powerless she And that's when I started to be concerned also for Montedir, because if the king is allowing his soldiers to treat...
00:28:39
Speaker
his son's wife that way, they're not going to have respect for the son. because they threaten to bring the emir and the soldiers say, we don't answer to him. Yeah. Which is not good. Yeah.
00:28:51
Speaker
We're gearing up for more heartbreak, I can tell. And we're going to love it. She's going to love it. I love to suffer. And if you too love to suffer, read along, Kingdom of Copper.
00:29:08
Speaker
And if you don't like to suffer, you should sign up for Mary's reading list. She has a short story out now in preparation for her upcoming debut novel.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yes. And you can find that at maryckijo.com. Yeah. And if you want to buy this book, Kingdom of Copper, you can check out the link below to our bookshop.org shop.
00:29:32
Speaker
It supports small booksellers and also us. Yeah. So go ahead. Buy the book. yeah Suffer along with us. Suffer with us. We'll support you back emotionally. Now, speaking of suffering.
00:29:46
Speaker
We haven't done our sparks the week. Oh, spark the week. So we're done suffering. Now we're no more now we're happy. What's your spark? My spark was actually doing taco night with you.
00:30:00
Speaker
so We did homemade tortillas and hung out. They were delicious. And what did we watch? We watched Psych. Psych. You out in the end. You're going to have to cut that out? Oh, why?
00:30:11
Speaker
i don't know. It's great also a great TV show. You can watch it. It doesn't support us at all. Go ahead. Watch it wherever you want. yours You can all get nothing from it. If you just don't want to read, put on the TV and watch like ah what was your spark
Conclusion & Listener Invitation
00:30:29
Speaker
of the week.
00:30:29
Speaker
Well, that was mine. Well, shoot. That's cute. Yeah. All right. We shall see you next week. And we're so grateful to be spiraling around through the universe with you. It's not always worth it, but it is easy. Whew.
00:30:51
Speaker
That's good. We're so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.