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Empire of Gold Final Reaction: Deep Themes & Rich Mythology | Mythic Mirror Ep 18
13 Plays7 days ago
Look back on Empire of Gold and dive into the themes within Chakraborty's Trilogy—Sacrifice, Liberty, belief, and Ducklings! The ducklings are in real life, not a theme of this masterfully written epic fantasy series.
Join us for our next read, Terry Pratchett's Thud! You can get it here: bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe
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Aaaand don't miss out on Mary's book launch! Follow her kickstarter page! The more followers the pre-launch page gets, the more exciting the launch will be! kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Stories
00:00:00
Speaker
Can you find happiness in the wake of war? Is redemption earned or granted? And why do I have a duckling in my shirt?
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, a podcast for fans of myth and fantasy who want to live magical, fulfilling lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.
00:00:32
Speaker
So I have five new little ducklings and i we we're naming them all after Jane Bennett because they're all perfect. But one of them was smaller than the rest and she was struggling. So we've been feeding her with a syringe and I have her in my shirt right now because that can actually help little baby birds and baby animals to be close and feel your heartbeat and get the warmth from your skin.
00:00:59
Speaker
Just like real babies, they do better. so And we decided she needed a little bit more fire and energy. So her name is Elizabeth Bennett. Yes.
00:01:11
Speaker
So the cheap in you here is... is' um Is a life being saved. Exactly. Yes.
Themes in Book Series: Sacrifice and Morality
00:01:20
Speaker
So before we get into plot points that I want to discuss with you about the ending of this book,
00:01:28
Speaker
I wanted to first kind of go over, now that we've finished the series, what you think of the themes of this series. e I think a major the major theme of this series is sacrifice.
00:01:43
Speaker
And what everyone, because every single one of these characters has sacrificed so much for either their loved ones or for Devabad or for both.
00:01:55
Speaker
And not saying anybody sacrifices better than and anybody else, but I felt that, um ah well, I think I'm getting ahead of myself. Go ahead.
00:02:05
Speaker
No, no, not going ahead.
00:02:11
Speaker
about for you? First, the one that stood out to me right after finishing the book was individual liberty, especially with Dara and Nari, which we can get into.
00:02:25
Speaker
But I think we see that with Ollie as well. And I completely agree with you about sacrifice. It is not one of the ones I wrote down, but I completely agree. Just the two other ones that I was thinking about was morality in wartime and also peace and how you get there, like what what it actually takes to get to peace I keep getting distracted by the duckling.
00:02:50
Speaker
you know, that's so cute. i don't i I mean, I have a cat on my lap. That's pretty good. But a cat on a lap is better than a duckling. I mean, it's not better. It's conciliatory prize for a duckling in a shirt.
00:03:04
Speaker
I believe you do have the proverbial bird in hand. Yes, yes, I do. Yes.
Character Analysis: Sobek, the Marid of the Nile
00:03:10
Speaker
um i think one of the places I wanted to start because we missed him last time we didn't we have not talked about Sobek.
00:03:19
Speaker
Yes. A huge introduction that we didn't even talk about. And then is he just got more and more important as the book went on. So, go ahead.
00:03:32
Speaker
Well, I was just going to tell our dear listeners, obviously this will be jam-packed with spoilers. So if you have not finished this book, stop, finish, and then listen and let us know what you think. So Sobek is the Marid of the Nile.
00:03:49
Speaker
And as we find out, he is Ali's predecessor, that he did create a sort of Marid-Jinn bloodline that he thought he had then wiped out, but no, Ollie survived. And it's funny because I was thinking back on it. It's it's hinted at so heavily throughout the book.
00:04:09
Speaker
it is She basically tells us, and I was still shocked when he finally when it finally comes to light. You know, everybody has called Ollie crocodile this whole time. They leave little crocodile effigies at the place. um He heals with water. He swims. He talks about being able to use water magic when he was little. And I was flabbergasted when I found out he was part Marid.
00:04:31
Speaker
That's funny. Yeah, it she did a good job of laying it out without making it, you know, but you weren't bored by the time you found out. You just, like I felt, okay, there he definitely has a connection to the Marid in some way, to the water, but what is it? And I i was excited to find out what what it was.
00:04:50
Speaker
Even him not being able to attack Dara, I was like, that's weird. Oh, well. I didn't really think of about Yeah. Well, she throws a lot at you. It's like that wasn't the only plot line you were following. Yeah, so since we're talking about Sobek first, what I wanted to talk about with him was the fascinating way in which she creates this character that feels so ancient and at first feels like he doesn't care about humans or jinn at all and then as you get to know him it's not like he suddenly becomes this warm sentimental like oh now i understand him he's not the old crotchety man you know he's still ancient and uncaring and yet he has his own code and his own way of caring and you find out yes he wiped out
00:05:45
Speaker
all of his family that he had ah founded, but it was because he didn't, he knew they were either going to be killed by him quickly or tortured by Tiamat.
00:05:57
Speaker
Maybe for all time. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you, as you go, you're like, wow, you're still, your thought process is very cold, but you understand him a lot more.
00:06:11
Speaker
And when he gives, and and he never says anything or shows affection, But just by his very actions, you start to realize this, this, uh, Marid cares deeply for his, his people, his followers and his family.
00:06:27
Speaker
Yes, it is interesting, too, the way Ali describes that sort of coming to understand him as well, just talking about how he is just from a different time. And that's how the way just it's not good. It's not bad. It's just the way it was. People sacrificed people to him.
00:06:44
Speaker
He became more powerful. That's just... You know, he does not care. And I think I do appreciate that representation of old gods. um I think sometimes old gods can be represented as very petty. And I enjoy a book more when they're represented as something more primal,
00:07:08
Speaker
less ah less of just like a petty bickering god who wants their blood but more of just like that that it is just yeah i don't know a better way to say it than primal it's just the way it's blood sacrifice was just how it was done a little less humanized too yeah yes and he's you know more crocodile than not yeah yeah yeah and you do see when nari's mother is she has a ongoing um
00:07:42
Speaker
friendship with Sobek. And she gives blood without sacrificing someone else or something else. She just gives some of her own blood. She doesn't die either. But I mean, at some point she does die. Yes. And speaking of that, that moment when Nari realizes how much of herself is from her mom and that that ability to take an unwinnable moment and still, you know, come out on top.
00:08:16
Speaker
Even though the mom dies, she still dies in such a way that ensures Nari's survival and protection. Yeah, she dies outwitting Maniza.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, which does anyone else? I mean, not until the very end. Does Dara outwit Maniza? I know. And there was that moment, you know, when
Character Critique: Maniza and Dara's Redemption
00:08:40
Speaker
Nari goes to kill Maniza and Jamshed's like, she's still our mother. And I'm like, for real, Jamshed?
00:08:47
Speaker
for And like wants to be there for her last burial rites. And then after that, you find out truly everything Maniza's done and you're like, I think that's why the the time with Cartier is so important when Dara asks him, was there ever any good in her? And he's like, yes. I don't know if I believe him.
00:09:08
Speaker
I know she's so, the way she just lies so easily, murders so easily. And you know, for how many years has she been planning this? And not just saving Daevabad, daughter,
00:09:23
Speaker
or The power. It seems like it was all about power for her. You know, it takes a lot to... If someone was really just... If their main goal was to save that their fellow devas, it would take a lot more to get them to execute the whole arena of them.
00:09:40
Speaker
like She slipped into that real quick. And like handing their souls off to the Ifrit. I'm like, that was... You did that quick. Oh, and then, you know, enslaving her final act of, not her final act of cruelty, but it actually enslaving Dara.
00:09:58
Speaker
Oh, that moment. Unbelievable. Oh, Dara might be the only other person who was able to trick her. I said that. I said that. Well, I'm glad we said that. I'm glad we agree. But let's go to the moment when she actually enslaves Dara. She's been doing it in, you know, through manipulation up till this point.
00:10:22
Speaker
But that moment was so tragic and suffocating and unbelievable. It's just, I mean, i could believe she was doing it, but just the fact that it would happen to him again. And right before that, you have um the Ifrit saying, you you should have flown.
00:10:46
Speaker
You should have let he fled. and And this whole time he realized that Ifrit specifically had been telling him to get out. He knew where this was headed.
00:10:58
Speaker
and And not that he's good. you know He's also the one that wants to enslave and kill Nari. ah And yeah, it turns out none of the Ifrit were good. we had We had wondered back in the beginning when we were realizing not everything that Davis think are true.
00:11:20
Speaker
That one. Yeah. Those, at least the ones we met, no good. They were just yeah different degrees of no good. Yeah. And even, you know, a no good being can appreciate freedom.
00:11:35
Speaker
So he was like, look, you should run. You've you've you're in your absolute most powerful form. You should go.
00:11:46
Speaker
But Dara's a dummy and he didn't. Right. He's also selfless, which gets weaponized against him throughout the series. To a fault.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Which i will, i very much appreciate that Dara is kind of the classic example of a tragic flaw. And yet Chakraborty was able to
00:12:14
Speaker
so clearly show that and show what happens when you don't, when when you don't fix that tragic flaw in time, but also that he doesn't die. He doesn't end in tragedy. It's, I mean, it's bittersweet, but his redemption arc, she made it actually believable.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yep. It wasn't like, Oh, it wasn't, Yeah, there's no way you can recover from this. So we'll have you killed off heroically and everyone will feel sad, but it'll be good. And it wasn't, oh, all right. Well, it's all right.
00:12:52
Speaker
You realized it in the end. Right. And yeah, I don't think we could have accepted a bitter ending would have been terrible and a sweet ending. We would have been like, maybe too sweet. um And that that that this bittersweet ending is triggered by Nari offering the choice to him being like, I will not bring you back from death without your consent.
00:13:14
Speaker
You can go or you can stay and that he chooses to stay and he chooses that redemption path that Cartier kind of forged for him in his brain is wonderful. And it's also like so brilliant because that is like a major loose end when you're like, ah they did they did get Devabad, but all these souls that they have been resting are now enslaved to the Ifrit.
00:13:42
Speaker
It's horrible. Because Maniza was willing to give away all of them. All of them. She's like truly evil. Speaking of her lying, I love the moment when
00:14:00
Speaker
Jamshed and Nari are confronting their mother together. Well, at least they think she's both of their mother. and And she, you know, is is weaving truth in with lies. And she she tells Jamshed that Nari is not his sister and she is a Shafet and she'll always be unreliable and lying. And, you know, she tries to paint Nari as this out.
00:14:26
Speaker
Sider who will always be untrustworthy and, and is just
Themes of Sacrifice and Liberty
00:14:30
Speaker
terrible. he And Nari is afraid Jamshin's going to believe her. She knows that he's just coming around to realizing his own prejudice and, and letting go of it. And, and he's only had Nari as a sister for what, like a week.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah. So she she really thinks this could be it. He could turn on her and believe his mom who's longed for his whole life.
00:14:58
Speaker
And he says, what does he say? I stand with my people, my sister and my city and you're a danger to all three. Yeah. And throughout the rest of the book he always calls her his sister.
00:15:10
Speaker
I know. And it's especially for her who feels like everything she loves gets taken from her. She's been without a family her whole life and doesn't remember her mom at all until, you know, until the very end of this book.
00:15:30
Speaker
So what a, what a precious gift that is. Yes. And can we talk about that character arc for a moment too? Were you surprised? By what? When Nari is poisons gems, gem shed to leave him in Tanitri. Yeah.
00:15:44
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And she doesn't give him the choice, just like she realizes that she was not given the choice. And then she's facing Maniza by herself and you think she's done it. And then Jemshed comes to her rescue and you realize that she has grown. And she went she waited for him and unpoisoned him and said sorry.
00:16:04
Speaker
i bet I thought that was just incredible, wonderful character growth because at this point you understand she is so afraid because everything she loves is killed and everything she tries to build gets broken. So I completely, i was on her side poisoning him and leaving him behind.
00:16:22
Speaker
i totally was. I was like, fair enough. Right. I loved that. I also felt a little, it drew me out for a moment just because We hadn't had that kind of jump before where something pivotal is happening with Nari that we totally skit and then find out later. Yeah.
00:16:45
Speaker
So I did, it took me out a second, but I mean, I was so happy with the arc and her choice that I got over it real quick. It was like watching the Muppets when he's like, and Tiny Tim, and Tiny Tim, who did not die.
00:17:01
Speaker
ah ye
00:17:06
Speaker
It was exactly like that. There's actually a lot of similarities between this book and Christmas Carol. I didn't know until right now, but it's practically the same story. it Yeah, pretty much.
00:17:20
Speaker
You've read one, you've read the other, is what I've always said. so let's talk about, you said the theme of sacrifice. So where do you see that, not only in this book, but the whole series?
00:17:32
Speaker
Okay, so let's go through the main characters. um So Ali, ultimate his ultimate sacrifice, obviously he's been sacrificing things his whole life. He was raised to be Cade, which means he got he sacrificed everything to be his brother's protector. um Blah, blah, blah, through the whole book. Final is when he is in the Marid territory and he is facing down Tiamat and she says, give me your name, your full name. i will drain all the fire from your blood and you will be fully one of us.
00:18:06
Speaker
and he does it to return to Nahri to save Devabad. That is a huge sacrifice, and he makes that sacrifice. So that that was huge. um Then you have Dara, who's been sacrificing everything all the time. And then that final one, I think, is when he gives up paradise to stay on earth, maybe forever.
00:18:30
Speaker
to redeem himself, to work to fix what he has broken. And then we have Jamshed, who arguably, I feel like you could say, had to sacrifice his mother.
00:18:41
Speaker
um Granted, he's not the one who killed her. And maybe I'm missing something major with him. No, he didn't kill her. And yes, he asked Nari to heal her. But at the very point when he finds out he's Nahid and she asks ah him to join her,
00:19:01
Speaker
Like, yes, your mother and father are now in control of David, but we want you to join us. I think he he let go of his hope for his family to be together at that point, at least on some level.
00:19:17
Speaker
And this whole story started with sacrifice with ah Doria and Rustam. Rustam sacrificing his life so that Nahri and her mother can get away. And then ultimately she gets a few more years with her mom and her mom has to sacrifice herself to Sobek to give Nahri protection.
00:19:38
Speaker
So Nahri enters this world alone because both parents have made the ultimate sacrifice for her life. I feel like I say this tidbit a little too much in my life, but I'm realizing i don't think I've said it on the podcast, ah but I just like the etymology of words. And
Primal Nature of Marid and Religious Reflections
00:20:00
Speaker
the one that's always stuck with me is that sacrifice comes from sacrifacio, which means to make sacred.
00:20:07
Speaker
You know, I don't think you could say that one too much. I do love etymology and I haven't heard you say I think it's important. Oh, I think so. It is very good. It's ah it's a very good point. I love when the roots of words add depth.
00:20:23
Speaker
And then i to end all that. all of that I feel that Nari choosing to drive the dagger into her own heart instead of Dara's at the end, because you could argue that killing Dara would be a huge sacrifice, but that all these people, Anahid, had been given this power by the Parys and had to make a huge sacrifice.
00:20:45
Speaker
um Alizade Al-Khattani the first had been given a huge power by the Peris and the Marid and had to make a huge sacrifice Nari is also given this choice and makes this and chooses to sacrifice herself instead and I feel like that is what breaks this pattern and what allows them to actually begin healing me yeah and that brings us to the theme of liberty and in individual liberty where throughout the book it's either taken from you it's taken from these characters or they give up part of it themselves as part of that sacrifice
00:21:28
Speaker
and in that moment Nari saw how these powerful beings and these powerful forces are constantly pushing and controlling Devabad and her people So it's not just that she wants to save Dara. It's that it's like you said, she wants to break that cycle. She is by by, conning them pretty much by calling their bluff and stabbing herself, which she didn't know if she was going to survive. She didn't know if it was, it was a gamble so by sacrificing herself. She's not just saving one person. She loves it.
00:22:10
Speaker
she's claiming her own individual liberty and the liberty of all the jinn and deva from these forces and in calling it out. Another, obviously with Dara, his is a huge his arc is a lot about, you know, or the theme of, tri obviously with Dara, liberty and individual freedom weaves throughout his whole life where even when he was young and a captain and you know the favorite of the Ash, Ashfin's, Ash, Ash, Ash,
00:22:53
Speaker
ah even when he was young before he had become the the scourge he still wasn't free he thought he was free but he was so controlled brainwashed and mentally controlled.
00:23:14
Speaker
So I really don't think Dara was free until that moment when he chooses to shoot Nari and and totally fake out Maniza and save save everyone.
00:23:30
Speaker
That was his first real free act. I think he had a respite when Nari first met him, and but even that he was battling against you know i if you know i have to take her back to Devabad so he was following something that he felt he had to do do you think he meant to shoot Nahri or do you think that happened very quickly and then he was like it broke something in him and he knew he had to end Maniza no I think he did it on purpose because that was
00:24:05
Speaker
part of That was the only way she'd really believe that he was on her side. And he did it in a way he knew she'd survive. you know He shot her in the so shoulder so that and he knew that she was in Nahid so that there'd be the the healing magic would be helping her survive. And then once he pulled it out, she'd be able to heal. Did he fake you out at all?
00:24:34
Speaker
For a second, I thought, oh no, trauma brain. he's flipped He's flipped back into the trauma of his family dying and the Marit attacking the city. It's taken him back and he's not in the present time anymore. And then as he kept talking, that was right in the very beginning. And then as he kept talking and he's saying you know cruel things about Nari and was that's when I started to think, I think he's about to save the day.
00:25:11
Speaker
I was pretty faked out until he mentioned Tamima. And he was like, no, you're not the only one who gets to use Tamima's memory. And I was like, eh, he might still be in there. Yeah. Because he's still mad about that.
00:25:23
Speaker
as As you would be. Right. And there's that great line, and I'm not even sure when he thinks it, It's when he's looking at either Montadier or Ali, and he thinks it's not his family that's destroyed mine. the Or the you know the family that destroyed mine is still doing so.
00:25:47
Speaker
sp But he's finally allowed himself to even think that it's the Nahids that destroyed his family.
00:25:59
Speaker
Can we talk about the Perry for a moment? Oh, yes, let's. I'm just find myself supremely annoyed by them.
00:26:10
Speaker
You know, they're talking about that they are these, you know, speak to the angels and these higher beings, but they seem, they are what I was talking about with this like petty, when people describe, you know, like older gods being petty, the Perry, I feel like are just, ah my note that I wrote are the Perry are annoying talks to angels, question mark, question mark, question mark.
00:26:34
Speaker
I think that is a self-proclaimed myth on their part. Yeah. Just
Celebrating Family and Roots
00:26:40
Speaker
because they are of the air doesn't mean they are of the angels. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like they do have a more power, but like kind of for what? like What do they do? What do they do all day? They just judge and come down every once. and Because it also seems that every time they've come down and helped someone, Anahid, Ali Zaid, that it does,
00:27:09
Speaker
it is a a moment of massive change that eventually makes everything worse. And how Nari realized none of this is about the cruelty and that's going on.
00:27:21
Speaker
It's never about wanting to end bloodshed. It's wanting ah to keep things less powerful than themselves. Right. I had hoped that there would be some like Kaiser who are wise. You know, the first one we ever meet is kind and wise.
00:27:42
Speaker
And he's the last one. That is kind and wise. Right. When you meet the rest of them, even Nari thinks, no wonder Kaiser spent time with Dara.
00:27:54
Speaker
hope These people are annoying. Yeah. And even the way they rip her up onto the mountain and they're like, of course you have a choice to come with us or not.
00:28:04
Speaker
I mean, obviously, if you stay here, you'll die. But it's it's a choice. It's like it's so irritating. Yeah. Did I have a choice to be taken up to this mountain that could kill me?
00:28:18
Speaker
no no, I did not. That was No, naturally. It's like, they annoyed me more than Maniza.
00:28:27
Speaker
Like, she's evil, but they're annoying. Yeah. She was scary, but not annoying. Oh, yeah. Big time. I think her villain arc is, oh,
00:28:41
Speaker
Someone has climbed up Yeah, hi. Are you feeling better? Yeah, I'd like to say hello to the people. Hi, honey. We've been saying hi this whole time. We hear you.
00:28:54
Speaker
Well, with that interruption, shall we go to Discworld Delight?
00:29:02
Speaker
Now, we don't have any guesses for this one because we are recording early because Carolina, where will you be? I will be going to Canada to record some music with my band.
00:29:16
Speaker
Yay! we're recording early. so no guesses. So we'll just say everybody guessed correctly. You did so good. It is equal rights.
00:29:28
Speaker
So for this week's to the ode of the duckling. Here is a Terry Pratchett quote. Suddenly everyone was interested in her feet.
00:29:40
Speaker
Of course, feet were important. What did people expect to happen to them? She swung them back and forth on the ends of her legs. They didn't do anything strange, so she got into bed.
00:29:51
Speaker
Who is the she? it feels like a witch to me.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yes, the perry annoyed me, and I did somewhat yearn for... Is there any of these magical... very powerful beings who are good naturally.
00:30:14
Speaker
The Ifrit are really not good. The Marid have a code of their own. and And we do find out that there are many who are peaceful and not ah yearning for blood.
00:30:28
Speaker
But the huge powerful one of this ocean, Tiamat, is definitely not kind, not even to her own Even to the Marid, she isn't loving or really caring for them, which is how Ali gets the Marid on his side, is he points that out. yeah She's selfish to the extreme. and she just thrives on chaos, which was a very good, i would say, a ah very good interpretation of the mythological Tiamat, who is chaos.
00:31:02
Speaker
So I felt like she did nail it. I just didn't like her. yeah Yeah. And you find out about, you know, the, the mother of the Northern ocean doesn't sound any better. Right. So I did wish there was some powerful beings who were still good.
00:31:22
Speaker
Is interesting that they believe in God, the creator, that they pray to the creator, that, that even though there are these extremely powerful beings that there is, they do answer to a higher power. I thought that was super interesting because I don't know that I've seen that in any other magical system in any other book.
00:31:41
Speaker
That is very true. And I would say that was the next thing I thought of the most powerful. So that would say the most powerful being in this book gives them that individual liberty that we were talking about. hmm.
00:31:56
Speaker
So the only time you see really God is through the actions of the characters themselves. I'm totally with you in that I really appreciate the mix of the mythology, the fantasy, and God still being a force.
00:32:13
Speaker
Nari's relationship with religion throughout this series is a beautiful example of how religion can be a strength Even when you see people who use it to explain their prejudices and to gain power, you don't blame the God of that religion.
00:32:37
Speaker
She doesn't blame the creator for the interpretation of the texts that has caused this a abuse of the Shafit and other tribes for hundreds of hundreds of years.
00:32:56
Speaker
and she can separate she can separate the human iteration of the religion and and the strength that she gains from the creator and from following the generations of her family and their belief you're right when she begins making her own fire altars without any sense of ah sarcasm or anything but truly in her heart creating it to gain strength from it I thought that was a really beautiful moment and in the last book she has a moment of unconscious you know she's she's not thinking about it it just comes naturally of her praying to the creator in her mind for you know for her to work out for the strength to make it through so it's it's interesting you have the two Ali and Nari both change their
00:33:51
Speaker
relationship with religion through the book one starts out as a rigid fanatic and then actually kind of deepens into his religion and sees the love of that of his belief system and is able to stop judging himself and stop judging others mm-hmm Mostly stopped judging himself. I was laughing very hard at the part where Muntadir and Zainab made a bet about how many times he had kissed Nari.
00:34:25
Speaker
And Muntadir knew that it was only once and that he would have beaten himself up about it. ah just And he had. um no Speaking of them.
00:34:37
Speaker
no other way around. I think Muntadir said at least three times. And it was... some Zyneb said once. Uh-huh.
00:34:51
Speaker
You're probably right. Leave us a note in the comments. Who's right? Yeah, who's right? But also speaking of that, I do understand that I believe it's called A River of Silver. There is, I think, I i haven't looked into it, ah but I think it's a compilation of short stories, which I'm hoping is dedicated to some of these other characters because I do love them all. you know We haven't really talked about Faiza. We talked about her a little bit. But Faiza and her loyalty going after Ali when he goes to meet Tiamat. Also Akisa and Zeynab and their friendship. And I want to hear about their adventures. It's beautiful when you create a world where it feels like there are no side characters. Every single character. Like I would read a book about Jemshed and Muntadir.
00:35:35
Speaker
And, you know, there're because I think that's a fascinating story. I mean, their whole life in the palace leading up to this, surviving this, finding each other again. The one loose end there is I don't feel like we really covered Muntadir telling him that, um you know, he he was responsible for his father's death. But I think, i think Jam should put that together.
00:35:58
Speaker
i mean, that you know, he might feel the need to to tell him because it it was a horrible death.
00:36:06
Speaker
But yes, but yeah, it's, it's, I don't know. That's one of those things where when every day brings a horrible atrocity, And you understand that. It's like, what is one more, really? Right, which which brings up the question of the morality in wartime, where, you know, if Montedir had done um this coup in the middle of a peaceful time, you know, just trying to get rid of the leader who was in charge and
00:36:40
Speaker
and has allowed his friends to tear someone apart, in the street and you know there's the betrayal of what happens to Dara and and killing the other soldiers around in a time of peace that would be unforgivable in a time of war it's understandable is it forgivable
00:37:07
Speaker
right and that's what uh I want to read ah these short stories about them. Yeah. I don't know if she covers it or not, but I'm curious. Yeah.
00:37:17
Speaker
So for our last theme of redemption, is it earned or granted? I mean, I think about this question very specifically in regards to Dara. And it's interesting because I think he needs this purpose. It's for the first time in his long, long life. He's been given a purpose that's actually going to help people.
00:37:36
Speaker
But I feel that his redemption is. And one that he's chosen. Right. His redemption is granted to him by Nari, that by allowing him to choose and he chooses this path of redemption, it's, um you know, i don't know. The only person who can then, I feel like, give it to himself is him eventually. like Because when when will it ever be enough?
00:38:01
Speaker
When will he ever have saved enough people to wipe the slate clean? And it's like, he really can't. Yeah, I think you're right. i To me, the the answer to that question is both because it has to be earned in the fact that you have to ask for it and you have to actually turn around and face the devastation you've caused and whatever whatever that is and work to heal it in some fashion. Now, he couldn't do it directly to the victims because they didn't want him and anywhere near them. right He couldn't physically help them in any way.
00:38:40
Speaker
So helping the enslaved jinn is and a way in which he can seek redemption.
00:38:52
Speaker
It's not so much about whether it's enough. It's where mercy meets asking for forgiveness, asking for redemption. There has to be a level of mercy because if you just go with the justice without mercy,
00:39:09
Speaker
There is no redemption arc. Right. It's kind of the the beautiful, magical moment of of the grace of love, really. you know Whether it's the love of your creator, the love of another person who sees the good in you and sees that you are going to choose that redemption.
00:39:32
Speaker
Ali is saying he could come back with an army. She says, do you trust me? He's not coming back. She knew beyond a doubt. And that is the, that in itself is a mercy.
00:39:45
Speaker
Right. But it's a mercy he did have to earn. She wouldn't have given it to him if, you know, he had continued on always believing what he had from the beginning. Right.
00:39:56
Speaker
Which brings me to my final theme, which I apologize, I forgot to mention in the beginning, but we've been following Nahri on this path of finding herself. And I feel like that final moment is when Maniza gives over her name to the Ifrit to enslave her.
00:40:12
Speaker
And she is able to shake it because she, although her real name, Golbar, is given to the Ifrit, it's almost that she, it's it's a remembering and a choosing that she is Nahri.
00:40:25
Speaker
And she says her name to herself and she can feel the shackles like slip off of her. And I loved that moment. That was one of the moments I was thinking about with Liberty where in claiming her own identity and claiming her own individual self, that is how she gains liberty.
00:40:45
Speaker
And then at the end, she's giving up a certain amount of her liberty. Another thing that I really appreciate in this last book, which I, and another thing I don't know that I've seen anywhere else, is actually giving a moment to the soldiers of the defeated person.
00:41:04
Speaker
So Maniza's gone, and there is a handful of her original soldiers left alive. And we actually get to see Dara talking to them and see their reaction to realizing just what Maniza had been doing and what they had been helping her do.
00:41:22
Speaker
They say we were following orders. We pulled parents away from children. And now they're finding out they were pulling them away to be murdered and given to the Ifrit.
00:41:32
Speaker
And only one of those soldiers refuses to believe Dara. It was the one who had been chosen to replace him. and saying, oh, how convenient. You know, you picked the other Nahid, and now suddenly Manais is corrupt.
00:41:49
Speaker
But all the rest of them take it to heart and feel it, and you get to sit with them through that. Yeah, and that's, I mean, she's really weaved these storylines together so beautifully for all three books.
00:42:02
Speaker
And you loved the last line of the second book is Nari always smiles at her mark. Mm-hmm. And that is again, the last line of the third book. And this time she's conning them all into a good government and peace.
00:42:19
Speaker
And then there's just the cherry on top for me was her finding her grandfather in the kitchen and finding that he was the man who was making her dishes from Cairo back in book two and that they get to have a relationship so that They talk about the found family in the hospital when Akisa and Faiza and Ali are all around her. And that's that is really beautiful as well. But her getting to have Jamshed and her grandfather is I that just really i mean, i've really sealed this into one of my favorite series is.
00:42:59
Speaker
Series I. it is so beautiful and so deep. There's not very many series that I've read recently that feels not only emotionally deep, but mythologically, historically, culturally.
00:43:24
Speaker
And yeah, she weaves something together that, will stay with you. in it took a lot to get through. I'm so glad we did it as a podcast because not even that I would consciously put it down and stop reading like, oh, I'm never finishing this book, but it would be like, right oh, I just don't feel up to it this evening.
00:43:47
Speaker
I just right take it this evening. And then you months would go by. So this is a nice discipline to actually make it to this this beautiful redemptive end. Yes, absolutely.
00:43:59
Speaker
My final wish, which if we have any fanfic authors listening, I would love it. we i want a fanfic of Dara as the Deva version of Doctor Who. oh Think about it.
00:44:18
Speaker
eighteen Okay. Quite the mashup. It works. You've got some wood you've got someone who's immortal. almost immortal who's dealing with a lot of pain and needs redemption, is going around saving, you know, in this case, it's slaves, and you know rather than the whole entire universe. Yeah, no, I i like it. He can have people, he can have friends along the way once he's ready. Yeah.
00:44:48
Speaker
Oh. He can go on little adventures, finding the slaves. Yeah. Probably maybe find one more Perry, who's a good friend. Oh, that would be nice.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah. And I would like to see more of the ringed lines. Oh, yeah. That was an awesome thing. That was very cool. That we get to see. And they're described so, i that wasn't how I'd been imagining them.
00:45:17
Speaker
And they were so much cooler. yeah We did not cover, you know, every second of every part of this book. It is well worth the read if you have not read it, but you better have if you got this far in the episode.
00:45:29
Speaker
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00:45:44
Speaker
Yes, build our empire and make new friends. Let us know in the comments what books you would like us to chat about and read together. you will be reading Thud next if you haven't listened to our previous episode where we announced it. And if you like hearing us talk, you're going to like Mary's writing even better. Sign up for her Kickstarter below. She's got a book coming out.
00:46:05
Speaker
We are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, weekek but no good story ever is.