Transcript
Speaker: Who killed the dwarves and how do you fight the summoning darch?
Speaker: Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live full and magical lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter.
Speaker: And we today are talking about The End of Thud. If you haven't read it, go, finish, come back. It's an amazing book. First off, Carolina, were you surprised with A.E. Pesimol and what hit the end of his storyline?
Speaker: I'm so glad you started there. I had that written on. That was my favorite part of the book. Truly. um Yes, I was surprised and just. Terry Pratchett has this way of writing where my heart just explodes and I just felt that, you you know, who would we all be if we were given the chance to be ourselves?
Speaker: And A.E. Pessimil was given that chance. And my God, he took it. And I just, that made me so deeply happy. Me too. I almost teared up when he was tearing up in the office. he couldn't even get the words out.
Speaker: That's what you're here for, isn't And the fact the veterinary was surprised. But then, of course, I'm always like, but was he really? Did he always think this is how it would go?
Speaker: But I think that might have been one that Vimes actually... surprised him on. I'm not sure. i don't know that anything surprises veterinary. And that Vimes knew, you know, that he came in and he and he he said, you attacked a troll with your teeth.
Speaker: That's not a copper, or you know, how does he say it? But he's, he, that he saw it He saw him for who he was and what he wanted to be. And I just, I loved that. Which I think is why Vimes is so successful with the watch. In the first book you read, the city watch is a joke. You know, guilds run the place. The city works, but the the watch is kind of like this leftover and it doesn't really have a place anymore.
Speaker: And then Vimes... is in control and he, because of who he is. And I think that's part of it is what he sees in people and that he allows them. And granted when he was like, all right, I'll have you understand. Did he think that was going to happen? No, he was surprised.
Speaker: But as soon as it's there, he, he accepts it. You know, he's he doesn't laugh at him and be like, all right, on with you, you know? and And what, because in that moment when he first said, when he says, all right, you, it could get rough from here on out. You you stay here.
Speaker: And he goes, I'm an acting constable, am I not? but I am going. And he lets him at that point, you know? I think so many other people in his life would have laughed at him and told him off.
Speaker: and And he got to go. And I think... I mean, it really that I think everything you just said really speaks to the heart of this book, which is, I think, in Vimes' mind, that when you stop seeing people as people, that's where the problems begin. And Vimes, no matter if it's a troll, a dwarf, a vampire, he sees people as people. And i think you understand what I mean when I say that. Obviously, they're not all humans, but he sees people as people.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, there's when Mr. Shine is talking to him about trolls and how dwarves have made everyone think that trolls are just these dumb, slow species you know that can't think at all. and And Vimes is like, don't look at me when you say that. Detritus is one of my best officers. Yeah. Speaking of which, I think I do need to take a moment to acknowledge how wrong I was about Mr. Shine. I thought it was a drug. It is, in fact, troll king. Yeah.
Speaker: ah ah I mean, this thing does start with S. You know, and all the troll drugs start with To make them easy to remember. Mr. Shine. Him diamond.
Speaker: It sounds like a drug to me. No, they were just telling you exactly what he is. Oh, he literally is a diamond. I didn't know. And now I know. Yeah. I love that too. When he says, when he's talking about human kings have to prove, you know, have enchanted swords and special birthmarks and with trolls, it's there, it is indisputable.
Speaker: Speaking of ah vimes and veterinary, that those were some of my favorite scenes too. Yeah. The honest dishonesty that goes on between them where veterinarian is asking all these questions and says, what would happen if I asked you an outright question? And five says, I'd tell you a downright lie. Yeah.
Speaker: These looks. And he gave him a look that said, if you ask me more questions, I'll lie to you. And Ventanari gave him a look that said, I know. Yeah, the rest of the scene is just the explanation of the looks. i was laugh I had to tell Baylor what I was reading because I was laughing out loud at that part.
Speaker: Yeah, me too. yeah and and that that's ah what i love so much about terry this book and all terry pratchett books is that it functions so much on nuance um not to skip ahead but you know ae pesimol is asking why they would keep knobby knobs on the force when he's a known thief And it in the end, he needs him. Nobby Knobs steals the cube because he can't help himself. And it becomes and it's like and Vimes knowing and internalizing and so deeply and understanding all these nuances is how he gets through from one day to the next. And that's how he wins again and again. and it's like you can't really put on paper.
Speaker: Someday he might be useful. Yeah. Right. It is it is all these and you know, the nuance of vimes and veterinary, they just they deep agree to deeply disagree.
Speaker: And somehow it is a beautiful working relationship. Yeah, because Vetinari does the same thing that Vimes does in terms of knowing people so well that he knows if he puts Vimes onto something that Vimes will come through. It's the same thing with the book Snuff where he goes, yes, yes, you know he gets him to go on this vacation knowing that something terrible is happening over there and Vimes will get to the bottom of it. He doesn't need to tell him to go get to the bottom of it. That's outside of his jurisdiction. He can't do that. What he can do is yes, suggest that a lovely countryside vacation would be great.
Speaker: And in here, it's like he there's all these politics going on and he doesn't send in his agents. I mean, at one point he does say I have agents who could do that. But he he lets Vimes go because he knows who Vimes is. And they have that, you know, he he's figured out that the summoning dark is inside of Vimes.
Speaker: Yeah, can you find it? Because that is a really good part. I found it. Tell me, Drumknot, are you a betting man at all? I have been known to have the occasional little flutter, sir.
Speaker: Given, then, a contest between an invisible and very powerful quasi-demonic thing of pure vengeance on the one hand and the commander on the other, where would you wager, say, one dollar?
Speaker: I wouldn't, sir. That looks like that one would go to the judges. Yes, said Vetinari, staring thoughtfully at the closed door. Yes, indeed. But yeah, that's what it's coming down to is this question that keeps getting asked all the way through the book of who watches the Watchmen.
Speaker: And they every time Lime's answer me, I do. And it turns out that he was right. What did you think of that line, the storyline, the summoning dark versus the guarding dark?
Speaker: You know, I really loved it because throughout the book I was sort of like, At certain times, it is actually quite grim and quite dark of a book.
Speaker: um You know, people do die and there is evil at work that is seemingly more powerful than the good And at the end, it really is in my opinion, um i would i would go ten toes down to say that it is a hope punk book because the fact that he, that all everything is saved because of a father's love and his ritual of reading to his son at 6 p.m. every night is what saves the world. I think it's quite hopep punk.
Speaker: Mm hmm. And that he he has given himself the rule. Last time we talked about, you know, a good excuse. If you let a good excuse go, then you let a bad one go. And he holds so strongly to that law that he's given himself that he's laying lost in a warren of limestone caves in the middle and underneath a deadly valley and he can't find his way out at all.
Speaker: He's just met death who says, you might die. You're having a near death experience. I am having a near vimes experience. Don't worry, I brought a book.
Speaker: And his little pixie clock, alarm clock, is telling him that it the the black, the what is it, the blueberry, the gooseberry? Gooseberry. Yeah. um Is telling him, you know, to go read to your son.
Speaker: And at that point, he could have been, if he was, you know, a normal person, could have just been like, oh, that cuts me to the quick. I'm not there to read to my son. You know, this is a pretty good excuse. And it makes me so sad that I'm not there. And instead, he says, I have to read to my son.
Speaker: And he gets up and just starts. And the fact, the fact that. him reading it, just saying it out loud and going through it with him. Actually, he's actually there and his son can actually hear him in that bedroom reading to him.
Speaker: And that that is what, yeah, that's what fights off the summoning dark. Including, and then, you know, the so that all the animals are appearing in the in the world of inside vimes.
Speaker: and And then the guard dark, the watchman inside of the watchman. comes and has that conversation, which was one of the only things I remembered from this book was the moment when he catches up with him and they had that conversation.
Speaker: And, oh oh, yeah. What does he, he's what does he say? He, he's, I am not here to get you out. I am here to keep you in. Yeah, because he's talking about the darkness inside of Vimes, right? Because he says he's afraid of the dark and he goes, as he should be. No, I don't think you understand. I'm not here to keep the dark out. I'm here to keep it in.
Speaker: Yeah, and how and call me the guarding dark. How much worse am I or something like that. Yeah, I loved love that whole part. This book sets up like a murder mystery, like a whodunit, which I think is a funny little callback when Death is reading a murder mystery while he waits for Vimes to either die or not.
Speaker: And then the truth is, you don't really ever find out who killed the main dwarf. You find, i mean, you know, sort of, but there's no like singular, it was this person.
Speaker: I think that the point is more that it's these ideologies and this, and it's, you have the following dark, which is the sinister supernatural force, but it's really brought to life by evil doings, by mortals.
Speaker: It didn't come into the world because it wanted to. It was, it was. it wasn't allowed in, you know, I think that you, they talk about it existing and like wafting through and becoming a superstition. But yeah, I can't act in the world at all.
Speaker: Until something lets it add in. Until it's brought That's a moment that got me twice where, because you realize he's got the summoning dark in him. And at first, and I and i was getting confused because i was like okay, the first sign they see is not. It's the following dark.
Speaker: So that was just like a mind sign that was like kind of warning something like it's not good here. But it wasn't that like, like the sign we drew was not this the sign that the the guy drew in his own blood.
Speaker: of the summoning dark and so i I kept thinking like well wait but then how did the summoning dark get into Vimes because it happened earlier than when and it's like a yeah just because they only just discovered the sign now doesn't mean it wasn't there and then that moment when Vimes figures it out and he realizes what door it was and that he was right on the other side and I mean yeah I mean Thank God for their own psyches that he was already gone at that point, because that would have been. Yeah.
Speaker: ah Yeah. And that's what I mean. There are parts of this book that are quite grim. And the dwarf who dies saying he knows the summoning dark is coming for him because he stood on the other side of that door and he heard him and he didn't do anything because he was afraid of the other guards.
Speaker: and And the fact that he does die just from fear and guilt, like he, you know, and it's like, well, that is, it's like kind of the summoning dark did get him, even though it didn't. and in a And that's when Vime says, you know, your belief really does a number on people and And the dwarf answer is not as... It doesn't do as much evil as hugh is other dwarves do or other people do, other beings.
Speaker: And that's the same thing. is It wasn't the summoning dark that was making the guy scream on the other side of the door or cry out for help. you know It wasn't and right is some supernatural creature that killed those dwarves.
Speaker: A dwarf did. Right. what is i think Vimes is saying this towards the end where he says the enemy... Is those who do a bad thing and call it good. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that's, that's who really, that's, that's the whodunit. Mm-hmm. And even he has that moment because he's starting to, the the summoning dark inside him is trying to get through.
Speaker: And that's one of the moments when the wise dwarf is saying, you know, I'll come with you because he's figured it out. Vimes hasn't yet, but he knows what's inside of Vimes, and you know, and Vimes is like, oh, to make sure, you know, like affronted and angry that he's coming to make sure he doesn't do anything to the dwarf.
Speaker: and he And he realizes that, you know, there there is a part of him that could. But he says that there's another great line. Oh, this book's so full of great lines. when He talks about, you know, when you become beating beating people in small rooms for good reason, you know, when you when you go down that route, yeah, you you're not the good guy anymore.
Speaker: Is it time for a little Discworld Delight moment, Mary? Yes.
Speaker: On YouTube, the guess was i Shall Wear Midnight. And on Tink Tonks, we have Shepard's Crown and Shepard's Crown. Ah, it was indeed Shepard's Crown.
Speaker: Clockwork Liar, we gave them a shout out last week because they had looked but hadn't guessed. And they i they came to i want they defended themselves and I defend them here too. They said I didn't want to spoil it after I went and got it.
Speaker: Anyway, Shepard's but um so How considerate. said you're always allowed to spoil it. I know. And also you guessed right, Shepard's Crown. Yep. Which was actually so the first book I ever read, and it was the last book he ever wrote.
Speaker: And there are some people who have not read this book because they can't bear to have no more unread Terry Pratchett books. I get it i wouldn't have been able to do it. I would read it.
Speaker: Even if I hadn't read it. Oh, yeah. Even if I hadn't read it, I would. It is a very good one. Now that I've read all the other witch books, I want to go back and read it.
Speaker: Witch books? Witch witch books? All of Witch witch All right, here we go. For this week's Discworld Delight. There was a certain spring in his step...
Speaker: As he walked back to the ruin of the post office, he'd sent letters to Offler, Om, and Blind Io, all important gods. And he also sent one to Anoya, a minor goddess of things that get stuck in drawers.
Speaker: It's a quick one today. What and can that I know, because guys are too good. I know, there is a hint in there, although i did edit out the name. There's still a hint.
Speaker: Something I forgot to talk about last time, because it I think this is in the first half of the book, but Nobby Nobs and Fred, I believe, are talking about Tawny and discussing art.
Speaker: And it says, Fred didn't know why, the that a woman on stage dancing around a pole in a costume that you couldn't even floss with was not art, but a naked woman lying on a bed was art, but he couldn't articulate why. It's one of my favorite quotes. It's because it's like art is so strange in that way. And then he says, and then he's like, fails.
Speaker: They've got have fails on or an urn. Urns. And maybe a cherub. Even if he's grinning. These deeply philosophical thoughts that I just, that is what I live to read Terry Bratchett for. ye Yeah, every conversation between those two are so funny and so somehow idiotic and philosophical at the same time. Where, yeah, what is art? But then they come up with...
Speaker: Urns. Doesn't have an urn in it. But he's not wrong. i mean, I was thinking about it, and i was like, it's just a very good point. And then, of course, um I really enjoyed Angua and Sally's relationship throughout the book.
Speaker: Even to the point where we find out that Sally's a spy and they just sort of are okay with that. Because, of course, you've got to spy on your friends. Do it to us no good to spy on our enemies.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that she's still, you know, she's the first one who reaches vimes in the, in the caves and then Angua is not far behind and that it's, there's a moment in, this is going off, but there's a moment in the la the Avengers movie where they're all fighting,
Speaker: Thanos, where it's like the girls band together, you know, and it's just so painfully obvious. And like, isn't this a great empowering woman moment? Look, all the women Avengers are together doing it. And it just feels so forced and so it like demeaning.
Speaker: um Whereas here, you have the first two Watchmen to get to him are the two women. And it makes perfect sense. It flows. There's no highlighting of it. Like, aren't I, as Sir Terry Pratchett, so great for putting these women in here like this? You know, it's just like part of the story, part of their characters, because they are Watchmen and Vime sees them as such. And there is no in their minds, in his mind, know like, huh, we're girls and we're the first guys who got here, you know?
Speaker: and And then it it just makes it that much more powerful. Right.
Speaker: But they're not bonding. This is not bonding. de do We are not bonding. Yeah. And I loved, my favorite part of their going out for a night of fun is when they get called back to the watch and Angua is just so relieved to go back to a place. Trying not to sound cheerful. Fun.
Speaker: yeah I just, I feel like I understand that. That's something ah that I think happens as you get older. You just, you don't like fun.
Speaker: Well, you won not bars late at night fun anyway. Ritual and routine and and purpose. Yeah. No, you're not wrong. And then, ah so speaking of that night out, the great thing there is that it is a dwarf, a human, dwarf.
Speaker: a werewolf and a vampire all out together just talking about things and and teaching tawny about the jerk syndrome and then uh cheery doesn't know about it at all either and and so hunk was just explaining it to her and she's like oh yeah it's much simpler for dwarves but i don't think it's much fun and yeah And that's kind of the first time that they've all gotten to bond as females, which again is done well. you know It's done not in a self-congratulatory way.
Speaker: Right. um There was one more quote I wanted to mention that I thought was so good. Oh, yeah, that's um coffee was time taken. Coffee took time that belonged rightfully to your future self.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. My favorite quote. And um and is that next is that near when Vimes is talking about Fred's ah old line from the military of when someone was super confused they didn't know an arsehole from breakfast?
Speaker: And he's like, in my delirious state, I still know the difference. One of them has coffee. Which is in my hand. So it must be breakfast.
Speaker: um Man, there's just like, it's really hard not to just like go through the book and be like, and I love this moment. I love this moment. and i love this moment. My first notes are just words and page numbers. Cause it's like this, this is so funny. This is so amazing. Like Willikens through the whole book and it is just hilarious. And, uh,
Speaker: Yeah, what was... Okay, so I... Here's... Let's see. I don't even remember now why I wrote down this number specifically, but we're going to find out. Oh, when Willikens is one of the specials about to... They're about to go on their big ah standoff with the trolls and the dwarves, which is great that also... i was thinking about this, that this happens at, like, the midpoint of the book is the huge buildup of dwarf and troll fighting each other in the city.
Speaker: which you'd think in the first half of the book that that would be happening at the end. Like we'd be building up to that moment. but that's just like this quick, you know, midpoint thing that shows, you know, a lot. A.E. Pessimol shows his his stuff in that moment. but Mustard.
Speaker: Yeah, his mustard. And when he meets Willikens and Willikens is giving him advice, this And I think this is one of the first moments in this book that you get to hear more from Willikens. So for people who are reading this first, it might be their introduction.
Speaker: and he's telling him what to do when he's facing a troll. and He goes, "'A little advice, sir. The important thing is to get in front of them and dodge the first blow. They always leave themselves open, and sir may then step smartly forward and select sir's target of choice.' "'Er, what if if I'm not in front of one of—when it tries to hit me?' A.E. Pessimol said, hypnotized by the description and dropping the sword again." What if it is, in fact, behind me?
Speaker: Ah, well, I'm afraid in that case, sir, has to go back and start all over again, sir. And, er, how do I do that? Being born is traditionally the first step, sir. yeah And it took me a second and then I was like, oh, he's saying he's he'll die. That's what he's saying. Yeah.
Speaker: And he'll have to be more. like yeah So funny. That Willikens. Mm-hmm. I'm afraid I might have killed one, sir.
Speaker: happened to be holding the ice knife.
Speaker: There were parts of this book where I did feel like maybe I had no idea what was going on. That was one of them where one of the dwarves snuck into the little Sam's room and then came out and I couldn't understand why. i Okay, so so three dwarves got into the house and Willikens stopped two of them and then one of them slipped by Willikens and ran up to...
Speaker: young Sam's room to kill the baby. But the toys that Sam Vimes had brushed off the chair in order to sit down and read to him had arranged themselves on the floor in the symbol of the summoning dark. So he had run in and saw that and ran back out.
Speaker: Which is interesting that these people, these assassins have already taken the pill that's going to kill them. But That is so in deep in of a fear that he still it's he still ran out.
Speaker: Let's just talk about the dragon barn with Sybil for a moment because she shines in the end of this or the second half of this book where it just every time when something crazy is happening and she just is cool as a cucumber and knows exactly like, all right, this is what's going to happen.
Speaker: When she turns around and, you know, the guy tries to flame her with a flaming gun sort of contraption. And and she just says, Vimes, get down.
Speaker: And all the dragons go up. made me very happy which is an interesting thing because i at the end you know what all of these dwarves have done and that they did kill these city dwarves that were just there for a job and you know they got killed because they heard something and they left them in the mud and the dark and it's horrible and and so when at the end the summoning dark is saying like look at all these terrible things that they've done. It's like they deserve it. And me as a reader, I'm going, well, you're not wrong.
Speaker: You know, like maybe a little vengeance, you know, it's like. Just a little bit. Yeah. And then the, the guarding dark, the watchman inside of Vime says, you will not have him murder for you.
Speaker: You're like, oh, oh yeah, yeah. No, you're right. You're um that would and when he wakes up and the and the dwarf says oh and you still have your soul like that's it's wonderful yeah yeah most people go insane yeah yeah and you're like oh right right right right yeah vengeance evil spirit this isn't good he And I do really love, i mean, this book, the very first chapter begins with Tak and telling of how, you know, this is the dwarf for religion and how he spoke it and wrote it into existence, which is obviously quite like the beginning of the Bible.
Speaker: The word was made flesh. I think the Greek word for that is logos. And that is, you know, what the summoning dark is. It's it's making taking this in the ethos and bringing it into the flesh.
Speaker: And that, ah that ah to some extent, we are always doing that. And it's much better to be aware of that than not. And to have given ourselves ahead of time a watchman inside. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: We all need our own guarding dark. So speaking of the guarding dark. Yes. I guess I was going to ask you what your spark of the week was, but I guess I suppose I should let you have your final thoughts on the book as well.
Speaker: No, I think that was a pretty good wrap up. I totally agree with you. And I think the, the way in which he brought it all together with the reading, the, the book to his son and,
Speaker: And it's like on the outside, you're seeing this crazed maniac with like flame and red eyes. And he's, where is my cow? And and all the dwarves are like, I mean, it's just one guy, but surely someone else will do something about this.
Speaker: yes And then inside, you know, it's looks like you said in the beginning, it's the love of a dad. And it at that point, it really, he's not going after anything. Like that's the love of the dad is so much stronger than this vengeance, this this ancient force of vengeance that makes men go insane that's been alive since the dawn of time.
Speaker: And yet this, I am reading this book to my son was more important and more powerful. Yeah, and to bring it always and ever back to Lord of the Rings, it's like Gandalf says, Sauron believes it is great power, something, something, something, but it is in the little things that keeps the darkness at bay.
Speaker: Yeah. So now, speaking of little things, what was your spark of the week? What kept the darkness at bay this week? I got some recordings back to listen to that my band did. And we all got together and listened to them. And it was very sweet and very cozy and very fun.
Speaker: Yay. I can't wait to hear them. Yeah. You get so secretive about the things you're going to record. and I'm very excited to hear it. I do. Mary, what was your spark of the week?
Speaker: My spark is that I actually, now this is going to sound very mundane, but I actually went to exercise fitness classes this week.
Speaker: Laura, my sister, opened our, our sister, opened her studio And it was really nice because the a it you know, going out and exercising with friends really does make a difference in my world. I've realized I am not a person who can and or enjoys working out at home. It doesn't ever happen. And then I just beat myself up for not doing it. But going out and having, you know, seeing people and getting a little bit of that social interaction
Speaker: endorphins going as well as the physical workout endorphins, I really noticed that my week goes, it went a lot better. And um I just felt lighter. And, and this kind of goes with also what we we talk about here of with books and inciting incidents and kind of taking control of your own life of in, in all the books, our favorite characters often learn how to do something physically, whether it's learning how to fight or, you know, whatever, whatever it is that they go through in the story, there's usually that kind of physical growth.
Speaker: And in our world, we don't have magical inciting incidences, but, you know, making the choice to Do it and do the hard thing and then feel yourself grow and get better for it. I don't know. I felt like it kind of opened up my life a little bit more, even though I've only done like three classes. I'm still like, yeah, okay. I can feel myself in my body again. And, you know, um it's like that little bit of a change of of making those choices. And as always, we are so grateful to be spiraling through this universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is.
