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Empire of Gold Opening Choices and Twists
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Empire of Gold: how do we find our beloved characters? What plot twists and reveals have we had so far? What new fresh heart break have we gone through....oh Dara—you dear, brave, brainwashed fool. Haven't read Empire of Gold by SA Chakraborty? You can get it at https://bookshop.org/shop/mary-c-kehoe
Join Mary's book launch for the early release at kickstarter.com/projects/maryckehoe/breaking-inlands
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Is vengeance ever justified, and if
Introduction to Episode and Book
00:00:02
Speaker
so,
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to Mythic Mirror, the podcast for lovers of myth and fantasy who want to live full and meaningful lives. I'm your host, Mary C. Kehoe. And I'm your co-host, Carolina Carter. Today we are exploring the beginning of Empire of Gold.
00:00:31
Speaker
So this is a book club episode, so catch up, or if you're caught up, great. let's ah Let's get into it.
Character Challenges and Alliances
00:00:39
Speaker
Now, Carolina, where do we find Nari and Ollie?
00:00:44
Speaker
Everything's gone tits up.
00:00:49
Speaker
everything's gone Everything's gone wrong. Mania's attack's gone wrong for her. Nobody's surrendering to her. Not even her own devas like her. Dara's trying to recruit people, but they won't join, so he has bad archers.
00:01:03
Speaker
He's questioning himself, Ali Zaid and Nahri are in Cairo, um having retrieved Suleiman's seal and been whisked away by the Ma'arid to Cairo.
00:01:16
Speaker
We are suspicious to where Nahri grew up before she before her memories of Cairo. Muntadir is still alive, but not doing well as he is in Maniza's grasp.
00:01:30
Speaker
And why do we care? yeah um ah So first off, having Ali and Nari in Egypt, I've never been more relaxed.
00:01:42
Speaker
I know. is the all This is the Ali's last moment, and yet it's also this beautiful reprieve from everything. Yes. That it's, they're dealing with intense grief, but.
00:01:53
Speaker
It's like for the first time in their lives, they're not looking over their shoulder, worrying about being killed that moment. Yes. And you get the beautiful moment of Nari's um think brain. I know it's Friday, but you have to use words.
00:02:11
Speaker
Reunition. Reunition. Reunion? There we go. And you get that sweet moment. And you just jump off a cliff. hu you just Can I keep this in, please? Yeah, go ahead. okay it I think people need to know where my brain's at Friday at 4 p.m.
00:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. You get the reprieve of them being in Cairo, and you get the sweet reuniting of Nari and Jakob. Yeah. And that she says tearfully, I understand if you want to turn us away, that she doesn't even know if he'll remember her. And he takes her in immediately, and and he's and he's saying that he should have done more for her while she was there, and that he worried about her every day, and that just...
00:03:00
Speaker
I love him so much. this yeah This whole series, like there's not a single character that's like not fully fleshed out. Every single character, every single side character is somebody that you care very deeply about, which makes it a very dangerous read.
00:03:15
Speaker
Even as the reader, we didn't realize quite how much like we knew he was concerned for her and he cared. but you know he And like that grumpy old man kind way. Yeah, but he didn't think of her as just, you know, a neighbor. He thought of her as, you know, it's like one of his
Nari's Journey and Identity
00:03:33
Speaker
daughters. Yeah.
00:03:35
Speaker
Yeah. And he's worried about her. He's been worried about her for five years. Yeah. Wondering where she went. it You know, no she didn't tell him where she was going. I know. Oh, so the one point where I was not relaxed.
00:03:50
Speaker
in their egypt moment ah yes is one that you warned me about before we got there so nari with her becoming a surgeon in a dramatic fashion i it was uncomfortable because of the physicality of that scene and and what she has to do However, I had a feeling i was pretty sure that the kid was going to make it because this is a perfect mirroring of when Nisreen forces her to go through with a procedure that she didn't feel ready for. And she's panicking and she, she finally has to do it. And then the man dies, ah anyway, or because of dies more quickly because of, of what she did.
00:04:38
Speaker
And, In this one, people show concern because she's never done this surgery before, but they also trust her and she trusts herself. So it would have been real bad if if he didn't survive
Dara's Struggle with Morality
00:04:52
Speaker
anyway.
00:04:52
Speaker
And you have that moment where she really comes home to herself. She really finds her identity, that she to her core is a healer, that she doesn't need magic, she doesn't need Devabad, that she, Nari, on her own is a healer and is capable.
00:05:11
Speaker
And I do feel that um this book ah is a very much... these characters finding themselves. um You see, well, or not finding themselves. You see her journey and her coming home to herself kind of in a backwards mirror reflected in Dara where he's questioning everything and you're learning more about his history.
00:05:35
Speaker
And it's almost like he's not questioning it enough or he just can't bear to look at the true answer because that would mean he's a monster. Yeah, he's he's faced more and more with his choices. and And if he doubts what he's doing in the current time, that throws everything into doubt.
00:05:57
Speaker
But he's it's harder and harder not to doubt what's happening in the current time. With Maniza, everyone around her is using willful ignorance in order to continue to serve her. ah You've got Wajid, who is using...
00:06:16
Speaker
I would say ah quite a stretch of the imagination. oh you mean Kaveh? Oh yeah, Kaveh. Sorry. Kaveh, who is the Grand Wazir. That's where the W comes in. He is not letting himself even think that she knowingly sent him in to cause a holocaust of these people without telling him.
00:06:37
Speaker
he And she so easily brushes aside this knowledge, you know, when she supposedly finds out how many people died and um in reality, it's less than she was thinking it would be.
00:06:52
Speaker
And to Kaveh, it's devastating. And she brushes it aside as, well, you know, people die in war and continues on without any concern. To me, that would have been major red flag, major warning, blaring sirens, you know, turn back now, you you're following the evil one. And the only person willing to call her out is the high priest who she immediately calls for his removal after he says, this is exactly how Ghassan ruled and exactly how the Nahids before you ruled.
00:07:27
Speaker
And
Maniza's Manipulations and Morality Debate
00:07:28
Speaker
she's like, well, obviously he's out of here. I was thinking about that scene too, because it she shows it. So some characters like Nari and Ali are fighting themselves. Some are doubting themselves and some are accidentally revealing themselves.
00:07:43
Speaker
Maniza shows her worldview and her nature in that scene because you see that she thinks the the way she categorizes everyone is either manipulated or the manipulator.
00:07:58
Speaker
when when he when the high priest brings up these concerns and these thoughts especially about the shafet and humans and the devas and what they've believed and it might not be correct they may have strayed from the original um you know their uh anahid anahid anahid yes what Oh, because the Nahids. Oh.
00:08:25
Speaker
oh All right, that makes sense. Okay, that the that they'd strayed. And... through his words we know that he listened to Nari, gave her the respect of actually thinking about her words later and considering it and you know she introduces a new or a different interpretation of the texts and he doesn't dismiss it. He's silent in her in the meeting with her. We don't know what he's thinking at that point but now we see that he has gone back to the texts and he has looked into it himself and taken the time and the heart to really consider it and think about it and come up with his own opinion. And he's humble enough to admit that he's changing his mind.
00:09:13
Speaker
And she just passes that off as you're under the sway of Nari, who is being controlled by the Giziri. Yeah, and just like starts to weave that web.
00:09:24
Speaker
And Dara is listening. She doesn't know Dara is listening. And he's like, she's completely... He knows she's lying. She knows she's lying, that she's being manipulative. and it's and it's And he's in this weird place with her where he knows she wouldn't have said that if he was in the room because she knows how much he cares for Nari. So he's watching her be manipulative.
00:09:50
Speaker
And he's still unable to be like, yeah, she's not... He really, it seems like the best he can do is be like, okay, she gets to have her secrets and I get to have mine. And that's like the most of a rebellion that we have seen out of him yet. um and And because when he's going to the tribes and delivering her message of surrender or die, he is telling himself they have to or this is all not worth it.
00:10:21
Speaker
Like we have to do this or more people will die. And peace can only come from her. Yeah, this reminded me of a conversation about, I had about the malignant, you know, the three psychoses of the psychopaths or the narcissists, the, what is the term? Oh, it's the dark triad? Yeah, the dark triad, where they get away with it for so long because people around them assume, it's the assumed frame of reference, that good people or you know relatively good people assume that ah people around them are relatively good, so that we're kind of going from the same understood moral code. So with these with both Kaveh and Dara together,
00:11:08
Speaker
They believe, I mean, not only is she a deva, but she's a Nahid, so she should be even better than the devas. But they assume that they at least all as a tribe have a similar moral code.
00:11:22
Speaker
And so in order to keep her within the moral code that they assume she's working from, they are coming up with excuses for her. She doesn't have to do it. yeah she Yes, she manipulates them, but in their own mind, they're defending her.
00:11:36
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So it isn't until at some point they're going to have to realize that she is coming from a different league different place.
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah. And then what? Do you just kill yourself? I mean, I hope not. I'm just throwing it out there. Or you do something to counteract her in some meaningful way. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:02
Speaker
I am wondering, Muntadir told Nahri that the seal could not leave Devabad. Obviously the seal has left Devabad and Ali is suffering. his It's literally like a pain in his heart because that's where it is.
00:12:18
Speaker
Do you think he is only surviving because of the Marid magic or do you think something else is going on? I don't know because...
00:12:30
Speaker
He didn't say that the bear will die if the ring leaves. he just said the ring can't leave. And I do suppose all magic is now gone from Daevabad. Daevabad broke. That makes sense. Okay. But you know now at this point, in the beginning it was hurting him all the time and now it only hurts when he does marid magic. So
Exploring Dara's Past and Brutality
00:12:52
Speaker
is that just because the two are like...
00:12:57
Speaker
from a different magical origin or is there right because the only two magics are ifrit's blood magic dara's magic which we're not really sure what it is because they do call out in this book right he he's arguing with the ifrit and he's like if you're not a slave take off the ring and he doesn't, then we're suspicious that something bad will happen if he takes off the ring. Which is just like, I know it's like a little too blatant. Like he's obviously a slave. He's obviously been a slave his whole life. He thinks about this time he was enslaved to the Ifrit as this like terrible time, but it's like you were never free. And the most heartbreaking chapter for me was the one from his past where he's talking with his parents and his dad obviously was sent to the front lines to be killed.
00:13:51
Speaker
that And you don't know. but Yeah, yeah. That one is definitely the most heartbreaking scene in this in so far. But and we don't know whether the dad is going to the front lines because he refused to carry out this order himself or he refused to give this order to his son.
00:14:12
Speaker
Right. But definitely one of those. i Yeah. And I feel like it might be that he refused to do it himself. And so now they're picking the son as further punishment to him.
00:14:26
Speaker
They're so they're so evil. Yeah. And this is when you also find out that he didn't fully complete what they said to do.
00:14:37
Speaker
He left survivors and that's why they're angry with him. He didn't kill everybody. And he was so young and little. And toops.
00:14:48
Speaker
Yeah. And well, and brainwashed because the dad says, you know, Zaydi al-Qahtani is building back up the villages we've destroyed. And we are training assassins who, you know, we are training our best to be assassins rather than leaders.
00:15:04
Speaker
It's like he knows. He knows the problem. He sees the brainwashing that's going on and that yeah we're the we're the destructive force in this universe, in our world, rather than, you know, and the bad guy, the rebel, rebel is building villages back up.
00:15:18
Speaker
Who do you think the people are going to side with?
Nari vs. Maniza: Choices and Power
00:15:20
Speaker
Right. And that's even ever so more clear because new body wants to join Maniza, not even her own Devas.
00:15:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It's not great. No, they might not like each other, but no one sees ah a mass poisoning, killing, using healing magic for, you know, to kill a mass thousands of people is as a good thing.
00:15:47
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Shocking. Yeah, weird. Very weird. Very strange. What do you think Jamshed is? i don't know. I don't know either.
00:15:58
Speaker
But he's with Wajid. Sure is. who And and he's he is someone who never questioned or went against the king.
00:16:09
Speaker
And yet he's a moral character. He's he's one whose loyalty was... I mean, I... ah Yeah. He the poison Zadie.
00:16:21
Speaker
Allie Zadie. jam shit did. I'm talking about logic. Oh, Wajid. Wajid's great. Top ten character. I mean, he's loyal to a fault in terms of being loyal to someone who you shouldn't be loyal to.
00:16:34
Speaker
So carrying out orders you shouldn't be carrying out. But he's a good guy. He is. and Without the king, he'd be a good guy. Ish. Right.
00:16:45
Speaker
em mean, and you see... And he's pretty much Ali Zod's like real dad. Yeah. It is interesting, too, to have the mirroring in the human world of when she goes back to Cairo and she's like, who's in charge now? Like who's taking over? It's like no matter where she goes, it's just like this power struggle that just goes back and forth and back and forth. And it's always this. Who is wrong?
00:17:11
Speaker
Yeah, and it's always these ruling people who don't pay for the wars that they're causing. No. Ooh, the popo just went by.
00:17:22
Speaker
Slow. Okay, something very interesting. Side note. This is the second time where the police have gone by and they're like, not today, but just like where I've walked by a police car in this town and they're like pumping the jams.
00:17:38
Speaker
but Like they go by and it's like, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, I can't prove that this is illegal, but I feel like your head's not in the game.
00:17:50
Speaker
Are going to hear the radio over that bass? Yeah. Anyway, sorry. I needed to tell you that clearly. All right, is it time for a Discworld Delight? It's such a good time for Discworld Delight.
00:18:05
Speaker
I will tell you that so far all guesses from last week are is moving pictures. One person went so far as to say, frankly, my dear, I'd give anything for one of Herga's prime pork ribs in special curry sauce.
00:18:21
Speaker
yeah That is from Clockwork Liar. Ah, nice. Well, they are all correct. It is moving pictures. So today's quote has a major hint as to ah the section of books that this comes from, or a world within the world of Discord.
00:18:40
Speaker
The street is old and cunning, but the street is always willing to learn, and that is why Vimes, in midair, felt his legs unfold and in the full majesty of the law hit Stratford with the traditionally unstoppable one man he up-down very sorry. Even Vimes was surprised and wondered if he would be able to do it again.
00:19:04
Speaker
Nari is starting to remember her childhood, and i think it's reinforcing our theory that Maniza's brother is her real dad and that her memories of are of her real mom. Yep.
00:19:15
Speaker
And dun, dun, dun, that Maniza did kill her brother. Oh, for sure. We've had two memories, and at one point she talks about Or maybe this is when she's talking to someone. But anyway, she only mentions one infant that she had to give up.
00:19:32
Speaker
And then she says something about how she betrayed her brother. Or she says the look of betrayal in his eyes when he died. Something like that. Yeah, surprise and like confusion. Yeah. She for sure killed her brother.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah. And it sounds like she did it in order. This is like the beginning of when she and the Ifrit made a deal. She's bad to the bone.
00:19:57
Speaker
Right. And she said, it says something about how she hasn't prayed since the day that she killed the Gazziri scouts with the poison. I'm like, oh, really? you You kept praying after you killed your brother? Yeah. And I do feel like there's certain things written in where we're supposed to have either sympathy or understanding where she's from, where it's like, but she was too used to men threatening her to feel scared or something like that. And I'm like, yeah, I get it, but.
00:20:26
Speaker
I mean, I suppose this is something we're supposed to see of like, you know, how we've talked about Dara and Ali mirroring each other. And it's like, it's clear that Ali could go this way.
00:20:38
Speaker
So like maybe Nari is the same where it's like she could turn into Maniza. But you see her making the choice again and again to heal.
00:20:48
Speaker
here Even when she's fighting back at the attack on Navasatum, the way she's thinking about it is healing. To put out the fires, she's thinking about the city healing itself. And that's how she uses the magic to bring the sand, to put out the fire. It's not, she doesn't close the windpipe of the people shooting. She doesn't choose that. Right, she doesn't even think about it.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah. And I think another mirroring is between Manizah and the king, where they've been brought up by the same person. And yes, the old king was worse to Manizah,
00:21:25
Speaker
but they both were brought up in this controlled way that used your loved ones against you. And they both have a choice. They face a choice of killing someone they love.
00:21:40
Speaker
The king is faced with killing his son, Ollie, and he doesn't do it. She's faced with killing her brother, and she does do it. yeah and he the his reasoning of why he should be killing him is for you know the good of Devabad, which is like what has been drummed into him is above all else. right And for her, it's for power.
00:22:03
Speaker
And you also see where Ghassan, when he proposes to Maniza, that she chooses to close his windpipe and try to kill him. Nari, presented with the exact same choice, chooses to marry Montadir and try to create peace.
00:22:18
Speaker
So it's they're very clearly, but it's so clearly different people, Mary. I'm like a literary analyst.
Mirroring Themes and Listener Feedback
00:22:26
Speaker
So smart. It's funny, we didn't know there was so much mirroring in this book when we decided to read the series. but Yeah, our podcast name is Mythic Mirror, just in case anybody's tuning in right now.
00:22:41
Speaker
We've gotten some excellent comments on our YouTube channel that I'd like to read to you. Hawksby commented, this is back when we were doing the Green Witch and the Grey King, but I think it's very valid and applies to what we're talking about now.
00:22:55
Speaker
Hawksby says, talking about the moral absolutism and the center of dark versus light. There's this mystic quote, and a lot of mystics describe this, that in the heart of God is a deep but dazzling darkness. Some say it is a brilliant light that somehow contains night. So essentially, perhaps the absolute nature of the universe is both. And that evil is more like a cancer of the overall organism.
00:23:21
Speaker
I do like the description of evil as an illness rather than darkness or or like rust or something. You know, it's something that eats away at nature.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah. right. Hopefully we've got you hooked and that you will read the rest of this book with us.
Weekly Sparks and Episode Wrap-up
00:23:38
Speaker
Ow. dera kiki Somebody just dug their claws into the me and said, excuse me.
00:23:49
Speaker
you have secrets? I have a point to make. Yes. It says, read the rest of Empire of Gold so we can talk about it. And tell us, Mary, what was your spark of the week?
00:24:02
Speaker
My spark of the week has been getting to work with other writers on their work, actually. I've had some great conversations recently just with authors about their work, and it's been really fun to plumb the depths of what they're doing and and helping bring out the the... Wow, I'm a writer. I can write, but I can't talk. Not on Fridays 537. No, ma'am. shape story it's been fun to help
00:24:34
Speaker
shape a story
00:24:38
Speaker
focusing on the other author's voice and their world and how to help bring their vision and coalesce that vision. he That's very cool.
00:24:51
Speaker
And how about you? One of my favorite artists put out a new album. Her name is Rae. And that has been a major spark for me this week. It's a great album.
00:25:02
Speaker
It says, this music may contain hope. And it's very good. Very highly recommended. We'll definitely look it up. So this is the artist who this discovery of was a previous spark. Previous spark. Spark that keeps on giving.
00:25:18
Speaker
Cool. Good memory. Thank you. Well, all right. that's That's pretty good. Fine. I'm done talking to you. All right. whatever Fine. Well, if you enjoy chatting with us, find someone else that you think will enjoy chatting with us and send them our show because we love growing this community of myth and fantasy lovers. And please leave us a comment so we know what you're thinking and any of your favorite books you want us to do a book club episode series on.
00:25:50
Speaker
And join my book launch on Kickstarter for the early release of my upcoming fantasy novel about a resilient young woman and forgotten magic in a world of lost gods where gas lamp society meets ancient lore. You can do that in the link below.
00:26:07
Speaker
think that's all the plugs I have. So thank you so much for visiting with us on your Sunday or whenever you are listening. We are visiting on Friday at five o'clock, four o'clock.
00:26:22
Speaker
And it shows. And it shows. We are so grateful to be spiraling through the universe with all of you. It's not always easy, but no good story ever is