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DSC: "Labyrinths" (s5e8) with Shereese (@SciFiSavage)
74 Plays4 days ago
BADLANDS AND BOOKMARKS. While Discovery fends off an advancing Breen force led in part by Moll, Michael Burnham must therapyspeak her way through a mindspace to get the last piece of the puzzle needed to complete the map that will lead her to the Progenitors' tech. Is the antepenultimate episode of Star Trek: Discovery a TREK, MARRY, or KILL?
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Transcript
Introduction and Teaser for 'Trek Mary Kill'
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill. Badlands, psycho babble, mindscape. Let's fly.
00:00:17
Speaker
We sacrifice as many as it takes. incoming we can't take this much longer i'm losing lateral tras Captain, keep holding! Virtual integrity is weakening! Children collapsing! Welcome to Discovery, do you copy?
00:00:41
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Charisse.
Meet the Hosts: Brian and Charisse
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome to Trick Mary Kill, a Star Trek podcast that is willing to put people in a coma for them to figure out their lives. and Sometimes you gotta do it. You gotta do it.
Discovery's New Clue
00:01:00
Speaker
Charisse, the moment has finally arrived. Discovery has located the final clue to complete the clue trail and assemble the map that will lead the device that will generate the map that will lead them to the progenitorous technology. Why does the clue lead to like eight other things?
00:01:21
Speaker
Because complexity is interesting. Anyway, but in order to get that final clue, as alluded to in my little intro there, Michael Burnham must complete one counseling intake session.
Recap of 'Labyrinths' Episode
00:01:35
Speaker
So, uh, labyrinths is the anti-penultimate episode of Star Trek Discovery's fifth season, season and five, episode eight. I just love saying anti-penultimate. I've never heard that word before this moment.
00:01:48
Speaker
So penultimate is next to last word, not an and anti penultimate is pre next to last. m It premiered on Paramount Plus, May 16th, 2024, written together by Lauren Wilkinson and Eric J. Robbins, directed by Emmanuel Osei Kofer. Memory Alpha describes
Word Confusion: Archive, Gallery, or Library?
00:02:06
Speaker
it. When Captain Burnham is trapped within a minescape designed to test her worthiness to retrieve the progenitor's powerful technology, Booker, Rayner, and the crew of the USS Discovery must hold off the brain long enough for her to escape. What Memory Alpha does not tell us is that in addition to all the minescape, mumbo jumbo,
00:02:23
Speaker
which is in a happening in a bank that protects knowledge, or a library, or an archive. they ah Can I just as an aside say, I think it's very, the previous list reminded me that it was very funny, Reno's description. You should go try the eternal archive and gallery. It's like a bank that holds knowledge. Those are three potentially different things.
00:02:46
Speaker
and archive a gallery in a bank are three entirely different things. But then they call it a library, but the librarians are called archivists. So we could just pick one of those words and I think they would all work. It just seems like they were like, we need to make sure it sounds cool and we need to cover our bases. I'm guessing library doesn't sound cool. We can't just have space library. I'm okay with that. And then archive sounds dusty and bank though. It gives it a distance. It sounds like you have money in there. Yeah, it sounds like something that where there's transactions, things come and go. And that's an interesting dilemma that it could have presented. Someone wants this item or someone wants where the item is or whatever, but no, that's not dealt with instead.
00:03:30
Speaker
Anyway, I just want to like I didn't think about it in the last episode. And then in the previous leaves for this episode, they repeat Reno's
Burnham's Internal Struggles
00:03:39
Speaker
line. And as I was just like right looking down, I heard it. And, you know, when you listen, sometimes you can yeah you lock in better. And I was like, wait. Now, this is where my being a pedant can be, because I was an English ah like. ah ah A tutor. tutor i and Tutor students like you choose the best words like for what you're trying to convey and screenwriting is no different because you don't have a lot of time. Sight and sound is all you have and you're trying not to waste people's time. but that's a It's just like this is a buckshot blast. You're just hoping you see the right thing that triggers the right response. I just thought it was funny. anyway
00:04:16
Speaker
In addition to all the library stuff, archive stuff, bank stuff, we've got Maul prisoner on the Breen ship and she basically becomes an insurgent and pulls a Killmonger and takes over the Breen, basically, is what happens. She does what ah Locke should have done in the first place. That's right. But we established that Locke is a wimp.
00:04:39
Speaker
We did, but also the science. So someone has failed this boy. Someone has failed him miserably if he's like supposed to be the ruler of anything. There's a bunch. There are certainly a lot of lickspittle baby boy, bratty boy patriarchs or royalty in the Breen bloodline. It sounds like a lot of temper tantrums. Yep. A lot of diaper filling and So like Mall was just there to take advantage. She she got a lot more rope than than the supernumeraries who worked for the for the Primark though. She was pretty mouthy. Anyway, that's all going on in in addition to this. And of course, then the stories converge at the end ah for a space battle and some space strategy. Co-writer Eric Robbins was interviewed by TrekMovie dot.com after this one came out. And he had this to say about the writing process. I'm very interested to hear the new shows discuss the writing process.
00:05:35
Speaker
we We haven't usually gotten a glimpse, by the way, because i'm I said this last week. I have gone back and I looked at some season one episodes and now that there's been more time that's passed, we are starting to get more information, more interviews about what went on behind the scenes.
00:05:52
Speaker
Star Trek Picard Jonathan Del Arco who played Hugh was also interviewed by trick movie comm and he told More background on the development of Star Trek Picard, which I found was very interesting And if you haven't read that interview Chris and I will be talking about it when we get into Star Trek Picard season one in March but you know the development of not just series but episodes very interesting to me because I'm always trying to figure out why did you tell this story? Why did you do this one? I in this episode's writing process, though, Eric Roberts said.
Writing Burnham: Insights from Eric Robbins
00:06:23
Speaker
Eric Robbins, excuse me, said, for labyrinths, one thing we talked about, and Lauren is a black woman, by the way, Eric is a black man. This is a show led by a black woman and we never really had many opportunities to dramatize the pressures that women of color face in positions of power in the real world. So Lauren talked about the internal pressure that especially women of color feel when they feel that their performance in the moment can be used to deny people opportunity in the future. So everything with Burnham was revealing that for this character, who's a massive over-retriever, what drives her?
00:06:52
Speaker
I'm revealing that there's like a hidden internal fear that's never really been addressed. And obviously it's very abstracted from our real world. So the breakdown Lauren took a lot of mindscape concepts, really drilled down on that and Burnham's emotional journey. While I was primarily focused on aliens and spaceships shooting at each other, because I can write that stuff in my sleep. And then we would swap our scenes and we would do passes on them. And that's kind of the process. So maybe they're normally a writing team or not, but that's like a pretty standard way for writing teams to work together.
00:07:22
Speaker
And Cherise, maybe we can speak on this because ah it's a perspective that I, as a as a white male, have no perspective on. And I don't know if any of that of that dialogue for Burnham in this episode resonated with you, black woman or not. I'm not sure. Yeah, so I am a black woman, i am born and raised in America, so very inculturated, and um also an overachiever. So I could relate to absolutely everything Burnham was saying, like everything in those scenes.
00:07:52
Speaker
Um, and those were, we're going to get to the grades a little bit, but some of those scenes were some of my favorite scenes because of the, because of this internal reality. I didn't realize that this was what they were pulling from. I just, it didn't even occur to me, but, um, I will say it's very, it's very accurate to my experience at least. There is, um,
00:08:11
Speaker
In the black community, sometimes there can be this pressure to grow up too soon. um And there can be a pressure to be more responsible than maybe than you're maybe your white counterparts need to be at certain ages. So like, for example, when I was 10 years old, I was walking myself to school, making myself snacks when I got home, doing my homework. Like, you know, I was doing all of these things kind of without adult supervision.
00:08:35
Speaker
um Whereas now when I see as a teacher seeing, you know, 10 year old kids at these at the private school I used to work at who who are not, you know, most of them are not brown or black, um can't do any of those things as 10 years old you know as 10 year olds. And I'm like, what I was doing all this stuff like I could do this stuff since I was six. And so just yeah, so all that to say is hearing her talk about the pressures, especially the pressures of not achieving now can affect people in the future.
00:09:03
Speaker
definitely is something I think of often because I that's one of the things that drives me just like it drives her is that I know my achievements help people in the future. But likewise, if I don't achieve, um it keeps people stuck where they're at. It does not open doors for other people. um So, yeah, i i I totally bought all of that. And I appreciate that they put that in. Yeah. And and that it's worth pointing out, you know, Star Trek, it's a positive and a negative of where, you know, what the Goldberg talks about, like it's nice to see that there are black people in the future. Like that was part of the thing that grabbed it. Yeah, that's why she wanted to be on it. Yeah. Yeah. ah But it also with the show, as we've seen over 60 years almost, is that ah they skip over how this all happened.
00:09:49
Speaker
so So a lot of it is, and a lot of ah you know bad faith actors who participate in conversations about this will deny the opportunity for the insight and the perspective because they're like, that's all been figured out. Right. It kind of ignores the struggle and then it undermines the victory.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yes. That's again. So I think that's a, it's a great perspective that they're throwing in again, though. It's episode 63. We're finally getting this glimpse into Burnham and this perspective. But I also feel like if we're ever going to get this perspective, it's going to be Burnham and it's going to be discovery, right? Like every show and i' every episodes therapy session. So yeah. Well, we had Rainer last episode. sorry So I just think it's funny that are funny and in like a a dark way that it's taken until six episodes, 63 of 65 for them to really delve into, you know, we have a black woman captain. Yeah. Have we ever talked about that? Talked about her experience. Yeah. So I just wanted to highlight that, especially since it was part of the process of the episode. And I think it is the it's the part of the episode that holds it together. Otherwise, you have a lot of Saturday afternoon sci-fi schlock going on around it.
00:11:03
Speaker
I agree. It's the only it's the only test that is more internal, more like who you are as a person. All the other tests, though they were also supposedly supposed to test if someone is like, um you know, worthy of the progenitor's tech.
00:11:17
Speaker
Two of the five tests required book's empathic ability. So if we had not had book, we would have failed. We would have failed two of the five tests and you need all, you need to pass all of them, right? So it was like, don't get eaten by this monster. That's the test. Don't get blown up by these giant eyeballs that are shooting lasers at you. That's the test. And this one is really introspective. And again, if you're going to have an introspective test, it's going to be on this show. No other show could get away with this.
00:11:46
Speaker
Uh, some trivia from trekmovie dot.com's review. This is the Star Trek debut for director, Emmanuel Osei Kofor, who recently directed for Shogun, which I think I asked you about before, if you had watched that, a beautiful, uh, miniseries, which is now not a miniseries. It is now a continuing series, but when it first came out for FX, it was pitched as a miniseries and because it was, it did so well and was an amazing show. They're like, well, we gotta keep going. Um,
00:12:13
Speaker
i I recommend that to anybody who's interested. even remotely interested in the idea to check it out. It's obviously based on a novel. They did a mini-series of it in the 80s. This one was great. Anyway, Dr. Derek's reading list included a comprehensive guide into Laxian hairstyles, Hooperian folktales, and Euclidean geometries. So two Trek things and a real thing, which is its own trope. And I should have saved that for best Trek tropes. But ah it's usually inverted where it's two real things and then a Trek thing. It doesn't matter. It's just funny. but
00:12:45
Speaker
so just But it's nice. It's nice connecting it to the real world. It's like, oh yeah, this is totally real. Trekmovie dot.com suggests that the Labyrinth of the Mind manuscript may be our first view of Beta-Z written language. The executive producers dedicated the episode with thanks, quote, to librarians everywhere dedicated to the preservation of artifacts, knowledge, and truth, unquote. That's mainly because the Eternal Archive was filmed at the Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library at the University of Toronto. So more about that library, Cherise.
00:13:16
Speaker
ah It's a marvel. Its collection spans a millennia from a Babylonian cuneiform tablet dated 1789 BCE to original drafts by contemporary Canadian luminaries like Margaret Atwood. The library houses four of Shakespeare's folios, over 800 bound manuscript volumes predating the 15th century and 40 Egyptian piri from the 3rd century BCE. You can see the folios and some of these ancient texts behind Burnham and Book in the display cases during
Exploring the Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
00:13:46
Speaker
their mindscape scenes. And it's almost unheard of for filming to take place at the Fisher Library, but they made a rare exception for Star Trek. And the like library's leadership believe that this collaboration would be a wonderful opportunity to showcase the enduring relevance of libraries and the human quest for meaning and libraries connect people to the information they seek and their quest for knowledge. That's what the library. I am blown away that this was a real library. I thought it was a set. And if you notice the one room that she
00:14:14
Speaker
goes into a coma into is the same room that they keep coming into over and over and over like even when they're outside and you can see the bigger scale it's the same room it's the same layout they just don't have walls um and every time they walk into the door it's literally the same door into the same room but they change the design so it looks like a different room And I thought that was genius, like just genius as far as um the set deck to be like, yeah, let's use one space and make it look like five different spaces, but still similar spaces because you're in a library where all the rooms are designed to say like to me, it just was such a a great use of space. But I had no idea that this was a real place in any way, shape or form. I'm pretty impressed by that. Yeah, it was cool digital stacking of the levels. They also were doing a lot of blurring because I guess
00:14:59
Speaker
clearance issues with titles. It's like you can't really read many of the titles or any of them, really. Yeah, but we don't need to. And they're alien language. We can just say it's like so. Yeah, it's irrelevant. what's We just need the one book on the table. What it is is it's striking. You know, it's just like it grabs you of like, what is this place? It's interesting. And um it's it doesn't necessarily evoke futurism. It just um because they're again, they make it seem even larger than where they're shooting. And I think some of that I have to imagine some of the stuff with Rainer and Book and obviously Barnamooch is pouring sand through. Yeah, that's sad. Yeah.
00:15:36
Speaker
But that's like what that's literally like probably two hallways like in a V shape and they just walk back and forth between the hallways and that's all you need. Once again, I mean, had this been just a set and not the library itself, this is just a genius use of space from a storytelling perspective where you could use the same hallway and just walk in circles, but do different angles and different things and the sand trail is different to where you go like, oh yeah, sure. those It's like a million hallways. Libraries, they're great.
00:16:02
Speaker
this is ah positive for the public, their public good, and the people who are against them, they have an agenda, which is anti-community. second And learning. amler And learning, yes. And And since it's easier to destroy than to create, that's why they're so successful.
00:16:21
Speaker
ah ruining everything. It is easier to destroy than create. That's true. I love that they have libraries in the future. Like I was really thinking about this because I was like, shouldn't everything be digitized? But I like that they gave book back the cutting of the the world route or whatever, because it was like, oh, this library now again it feels more like an archive, right? It's like this library has more than books. It has artifacts of cultural significance.
00:16:44
Speaker
That's implied. I thought that was implied by what Reno said, which is why it is. Again, it's like, what is it? But we've only seen. Yeah, but we only saw books. We didn't see anything anything like we first came in. We didn't see so things, but there is the scene where Burnham like breaks that glass, whatever. And so again, it's like, oh, there's more stuff than books, but we didn't really see more things than books yeah here. But still, it was just I love this. I love this idea. I don't know why I had to be in the Badlands, but I love that there's a space library. I know. one I know.
00:17:14
Speaker
I'm we're definitely gonna cover everything we just said in some part in the grades coming up right now. Let's start with great scenes. How many do you have? I put three question mark. I put all the scenes with Burnham and book during all of her heart tarts. I really enjoyed those. So at first I put one but then there was another but then there was another so I don't I don't know I like those though.
00:17:36
Speaker
I didn't have any great scenes and I, but I remember when I first watched it that I was definitely perking up on all those scenes that you mentioned. So great. And we have those scenes in there for the record. If you, if folks, if you for no other reason watch this episode, watch every scene between Burnham and the archive or sorry, the Dr. Derek's AI that takes books, uh, image. That's but yeah the book the book that's dressed like an archivist.
00:18:04
Speaker
That's right. ah Best trek tropes. I have one. How many do you have? I have two. um The first is disconnecting this technology. It could be fatal. That's It reminds me of Picard's inner light. That's exactly the inspiration in that interview we find out. Yep. And it makes sense. it It makes sense that all the technologies we ever encounter, we can't automatically disable instantly.
00:18:28
Speaker
So they use this, we saw this in the crinum space bug one, the time bug, where it was like, oh, we can't get the time bug because the shielding is something, something. And I'm okay with that. I think that's a good trope because then it forces you to be creative in a different way. My second one is can't beam through shields, which usually irritates me when they're like, oh, we can beam through shields because sometimes they can and sometimes they can't. But this time, this episode, I put it under best trope.
00:18:58
Speaker
And I feel like it's, it's similar to the countdown timer conversation we had where it was like, sometimes we only have 30 seconds left is like so good in the episode. And sometimes it's just stupid. Like with the brain where we were like, why are you just giving them an hour? You're giving them an hour for no reason. Don't give them any time. Right. I felt like that with the shields thing. Sometimes you're like, this is stupid, but sometimes you're like, wow, this is good. And in this episode, I thought it was really good because then the brain had this shield tunneling technology. Why have we never seen that before?
00:19:21
Speaker
I was like, this is genius. This gets around. We can't go through shields. We created a technology that goes through shields. I was like, genius. And then they had to counteract the counteract. Like I liked it. That was that was novel to me. What about for you? What's your one good? Actually, those are really great ones. I put Rainer as a man of action, which is like a weird cheat because it's just a discovery trope.
00:19:43
Speaker
But I guess you could label it under like characters being the most the best version of themselves, which drives the story in an organic way. That's a very convoluted best trek trope. But I couldn't put the scene that made me want think about this because I didn't think it was a great scene. I just liked his plan.
00:20:00
Speaker
So I'm putting it here because ah I love that when Culber's like, we can't break the link, it might kill her. Rayner says, well, we can't just wait around and hope she passed the test. If the clues here, we have to find it ourselves. And I think that's a perfect use of Rayner of like, OK, if the clues around here somewhere, she might find it. issue Let's just go find it. So I thought that was great. It was like a nice just a way to layer in the tension, the action of the story to give people something to do that felt within character.
00:20:29
Speaker
Instead of just all standing around staring at her yeah for the next 45 minutes. Yes. And so I think it's actually really great that ah that Star Trek Discovery, which I think for the most part in five seasons, even its biggest fans would say like, they didn't pin down quite a lot of the characterizations for most of the show, for a lot of these characters. And here's Raynor from Moment One.
00:20:52
Speaker
Rayner's pretty solid. Hits the ground running and he's off and running and look what had happened if they had had a character like that from the beginning. It would have created so many, ah you know. It would have created fans for life of these characters. It would have created like this the Spock stalkers. It would have created that if we had this type of person from season one and we carried them through to season five. My goodness. The Rayner rooters. I don't know. All right. where're Worst, trek tropes.
00:21:19
Speaker
I have many, unfortunately. I have three. ok I have Rainer and Book against a squadron of Breen fighters who they dispatch easily. They're taken out like it's like two against like 20 and they're each taken out four or five. Four or five with like one shot. It's like one shot that passes through four Breen and they all fall down even though they have like you uniform. yeah You have armor, which is useless. Apparently, maybe armor is just a fashion statement. Not really helpful. I mean, it would have been funny if Rayner's warning the book was like, this might seem obvious, but don't aim for the head or like aim for the knee joint. That's the that's the weakest part of their armor. Yeah, but he did have some Intel where he was like, they'll fan in here. They'll be in yeah groups of four that didn't exactly which actually I like that part because I was again, it gives more backstory to Rayner.
00:22:05
Speaker
yes And you're like, Oh, of course he knows this because of it. Okay. You know, like yes he wasn't just pulling this out of the air. Um, but yeah, I, I, although don't get me wrong, I love a good space battle. So I'm not complaining that they had the space battle. I'm just saying like it, the brain are supposed to be the toughest people in the galaxy or whatever. And they seem extremely not the toughest people. Um,
00:22:28
Speaker
The second worst trek I have is techno babble. I put it's necessary sometimes because that's like that, that is a trek trope is to be like reverse the polarity or whatever. Um, but every time the engineers are an engineering, doing their engineering thing, I just always tune out and I just want it to go as fast as possible. And yet, and yet they don't, do not direct them to speak faster.
00:22:50
Speaker
it could be speaking. They probably can't say these words faster. They can't see it faster, but like obviously Tig Notaro needs to say her lines very carefully. And and ah Anthony Rapp has always been like goofy saying techno babble and they still, cheving them this was one of mine as well. so We have to just say this, okay? I don't care how much criticism I get for this.
00:23:16
Speaker
But Star Trek Discovery is the worst Star Trek show when it comes to technobabble. Bar none! It's the only show that has- I don't know. I think Voyager had a lot of technobabble as well. Like, and I love Voyager. I love Voyager. But I mean, every other second they were like, way of the yeah the way that Discovery technobabble scenes happen. Like the way, like you are isolated in that engineering scene. And that is a constant scene in in Discovery that is mirrored sometimes in other shows. Generations has a moment like this where they're sitting around getting shot up by the Klingons and they're figuring out, oh, what can you tell me about this old Klingon bird of prey? And I remember as a teenager in the movie theater being like, stop talking. Shoot. Shit. What are they doing?
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, but ah the difference is like they are and in next generation, they're more convincing. It's going at the pace of the action. And every time in discovery, it's like we pan to like an aside that's taking. Yeah. So the scenes are so goofy. It's like you could almost accuse the creators of the show of Star Trek Discovery of mocking Star Trek with these scenes. That's how bad they are. And I think even Voyager, you can even say like by the end of it, I'm like, you guys didn't have an out for this, did you? You didn't think of anything better than.
00:24:32
Speaker
some technobabble crap and even they knew it but they were at least self criticizing and here it just seems like they're like ah whatever this is the stuff the fans like and it it just winds up making everyone seems silly and stupid yeah I didn't think about that that's that's quite possible that there are fans who love the technobabble Like I said, it's necessary because it it does the world building, but I don't know how how much of it is necessary or how often it's necessary. We just need a sprinkling to know these words exist in technologies. But I was fine with, they have shield tunneling technology. That was cool with me. I was like, what? And then where they were like, oh, we could, we have to disrupt it somehow. I was with you. And then they were like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. That's all I heard after that. And then they were like, let's go. And I was like, okay, well,
00:25:15
Speaker
What? Just tell me you're on it or something. Like, I don't know. But ah anyways, that was my. And then the the we don't see them solve it. No, hear it about it over the calm. So I'm like, why did I have to have the scene where they're sitting there? The the three of them are sitting in there like tight, taking too long to tell us what's going on because we hear them hear that hear them say the same thing at the same time. I don't know. I feel like I would have gotten if I, yeah, we could have just gotten a page of dialogue or action to go somewhere else. Anyway, but also one more, one more bit on the techno bevel, Lieutenant Naya, we do not guess on the bridge. If you're using calculations, gravitational forces to determine how long it's going to take for the brain ship to arrive, say I estimate.
00:25:55
Speaker
We do not say, I guess, I'm guessing two minutes. We say, I estimate two minutes till the green chip arrives. When you're guessing on the bridge, it's not instill in confidence. So that's just more technical babble. Like, like convince me, convince, be sure otherwise.
00:26:13
Speaker
How did you get where you are? See, this is why Scotty always gave like low estimates for this reason. Not low estimates, really high estimates that he knew he could come in under that. He always under promised and over delivered for this reason, um which is so great. Okay. And then my last one, this was a discovery specific one, but it doesn't only happen in discovery, but I just noticed it a lot in this episode with second guessing every order so that the person giving the order can explain it to the audience.
00:26:41
Speaker
I was like, no, just do it. Like, just just do it. Like, they can look at each other. I guess I would prefer for them to be like, you know, when he's like, go to, you know, go into the storm so that we can hide and have natural cover. I would prefer for them to look at each other and be like, OK, I captain or, you know, I acting captain and then push the buttons and then go versus be like, what? But that'll take us into the storm and we can't stay in the storm for too long. I know that. But if we go into the story like, why are we talking? This is a battle scenario. Get the go in.
00:27:09
Speaker
and let us as the audience figure out the genius behind this plan after it comes about. And then we feel really smart. We feel like we knew it all along. We feel like we figured it out versus having the character sit and explain. And then later on when Burnham is like, vent all of our plasma, go to Black Alert, da da da da. And then it was like,
00:27:28
Speaker
Why are we doing that, Captain? Just trust me. It's gonna work out. And then when they, you know, beam or whatever, then Reiner's like, good job. You made them think that we were destroyed. That was so clever. And then the breeder like, yes, we think they were destroyed. It just was like, maybe believe in the and the audience's intelligence a little bit more and just let us feel like we figured that out, you know? And then we could be like, wow, I'm so smart. I totally knew that's what they were gonna do. Versus like, it's so spoon fed that I just feel I just didn't, I just didn't love that, especially with the military organization, especially in battle. And it just didn't feel appropriate to be questioning, to make everybody explain every decision before obeying orders when we were about to get blasted out of space. That's, I'm i'm done. the end Perfect. No, basically you're, you're the Rainer perspective and this whole season has been like,
00:28:21
Speaker
You're wrong, bitch. We're the right way to do things. Everything's messy and we're no one. Organic and just friends and family. We're just, we're family here. Yep, that's right. All right. Mine, we're calling out shield percentages. It's, again, just, I don't know what it means. So whatever. Hyrel, the rep from the archive sounding like an Airbnb host during her introduction. So the worst- She was so nice. But the worst trek trope is,
00:28:50
Speaker
the fact that the writers live online so much and they have, and it's just,
Future Dialogues and Present Communication Styles
00:28:55
Speaker
they're reflecting our digital lives and it's very sad. So Strange New Worlds has ah customer service, AI chatbots as alien characters at some point, but there's kind of like either an It's all email pleasantry in these conversations that they're having with representatives from organizations. And I just think it's a bummer. Like what a horrifying future they're saying. Apologies. Hello and welcome. It's like these are all things you say if you're in line at Disneyland, if you're dealing with guest services, if you're if you're so exchanging formal emails for business purposes. And I think that stinks that in the future, that will be how we speak to each other. I think that's tough. I liked it. I liked the juxtaposition of she's being super friendly and like welcome, and they're like, I'm in a bit of a hurry because I have felt that from the first episode in this season. I was like, why are we sitting and chatting with the Trill? People are coming to get them. Let's start with that. Hey, guys, people are coming to get you. Can we help? Sure. So those are characterizations, but like the specific customer service, guest relations,
00:30:02
Speaker
like they're so chippy and perfect. That is a just juxtaposition well that they have dipped into too many times in the secret hideout era. It's they it's their go-to like, we need a joke here. We need something funny. So they're like, they're being guided through the Badlands and she's giving like a guided tour, which I think the funnier joke is not then Burnham cutting her off. It's letting it play out and let the juxtaposition go like constantly. Right. If she kept going until they like stopped. Yes. like and they're breathing and then she's like welcome you made it so great and they're just like thank you you know that actually would have been funnier you're right so anyway just that drives me nuts it's it's never worked you know it's it's a half an idea that they think will work and it's it's never really worked to me uh and then cool but pointless what's the archive's business plan
00:30:54
Speaker
So if it's a bank, that is like a, you know, a bank implies something. How is it funded exactly? Is this a joint venture of several government entities that provide, you know, upgrades, maintenance costs?
00:31:10
Speaker
you know the replicators were in a post-scarity scarcity uh future but you still need like dilithium crystals or something to power the replicators or the gravity or still need medical care especially when you get blasted yeah it moves every 50 years why it has shields and all this other stuff so i just It's like, it's cool for the sake of cool. Like it just brings in a lot of questions that like, so it's not an actual museum, but it kind of is. She's like, we love having visitors. Then why are you so hard to find? And like, really love visitors, do you? Because how could anybody find you in the Badlands and you have to have a library card to get in or something?
00:31:56
Speaker
Well, they're not always in the Badlands. Yeah. They didn't have to use that library card for anything. I thought it was weird. She's like, it's made out of the same thing as the library card. The station. I'm like, what does that mean? Is that just your way of verifying it's from here? Maybe they had to use it if they wanted to check something out or maybe that was connected to the book. That's how they got the book. I just didn't see them use the library card. That must be what it is because the card should go to the book. But we didn't see the handoff. Yes.
00:32:22
Speaker
just for taking it or them acknowledging the card or something. Yeah, you're right. If they love having visitors, being inside the Badlands is maybe not the best place. and Also, they move they said they move every 50 years for like safety or security or something, but who's trying to blast the library? Well, so then that's what I think happened is that this was a half an idea that they then went in the development of it, it kind of just got out of control. I think what started it was Freeport, the Freeport from Tenet.
00:32:52
Speaker
And they're like, wouldn't it be cool if they had to go to a free port where this this basically Amazon self published book that nobody read. So this this sad cat lady scientist, basically, when she discovered the progenitors, let's Dr. Derek's she discovered the progenitor's text with tech with this group. She retired to this archive, wrote a book checked in her own book in Beta Z that no one could read and and installed in it an AI that will test for the piece. And she basically she became a nun and worked at the library for the rest of her life. Yeah. And she installed this portal, which is a labyrinth to the mind that literally anyone stumbling upon this book, which will be no one because no one knows this book exists to check it out. But anyone, maybe another archivist, if they touch it,
00:33:41
Speaker
they will be sucked into the labyrinth of the mind. but so Anyone will. You have to press that button to turn on the Bluetooth, which again- It wouldn't if you saw it. yeah but like You just saw Burnham, she couldn't resist. She had to push the button. Technology that works, so it's in a book, but then it has an electrical device inside of it that works for 800 years after you built it.
00:34:03
Speaker
Okay. Anyway, maybe, maybe they've solved the dilithium crisis. So that's what we missed. It's just everything gives you some, every question is answered by because it's cool. Like, why is this the way to, Oh, it's cool. So just And I think that you can get away with that in any episode of Star Trek and you can name so many episodes of Star Trek where it's like, but there is like a limit where I think it strains credulity and it breaks reality. And this is just the worst structure where they have exceeded it. So I feel like to your point that you because you said they don't have a lot of time. I'm trusting you because I don't have no idea how this writers rooms work. But you said they they didn't have enough time to really flush out these stories because they were like on a crunch, which I would assume most TV writer rooms are in that situation.
00:34:50
Speaker
Um, and maybe well they are in the urn depends on ah it depends on the show Yeah, maybe if they had time they could have tied some of these things up because I feel like our complaints in this episode are so like Easily fixable. They're not like the last episode with the brain where you're just like none of this makes sense This is like these things like and You know passing the library card and seeing her swipe something or something and you know that like why is it in the badlands? Maybe it's always been in the badlands Maybe it was founded here for something something reason like there's Like these could have been probably tied up pretty easily. Yeah. And so anyone wondering why why something complex would take less time. That's ah that's because you your first ideas are usually pretty messy and you don't think them through and cohere them in a way. So you need time to actually like winnow it down to what not only just what makes sense, but like what are you actually going for here?
00:35:42
Speaker
And I think with Discovery, is it's usually like what's just like the most interesting sounding thing and then we'll deal with the ramifications in basically how the Discovery crew deals with every problem. Like, OK, we we've jumped here because our sport drive lets us get to places instantaneously, which gives us no time to plan. So we'll just figure it out on the way.
00:36:03
Speaker
and make it up as we go along. um The leaps of logic needed to explain the clue search in the episode. Now, this happens in a lot of Star Trek, but I still think it's a ah worse Trek trope. Burnham figuring out that she's in a maze that she has to solve is maybe a leap I can go along with, but the fact that she then ends with, and I'll wind up back in the room I started in. I'm like,
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, nos you would think she would exit. Right. But okay. But I mean, it is it she did. Okay, the book is called Labyrinth of the Mind. And in a labyrinth, usually it's a maze where you start on the outside and you get to the center. And in her map, the room she started in was the center. So maybe that's the thinking behind it is like, Oh, I have to get to the center of the Tootsie Roll. It'll lead me. Okay, so fair enough. So then the only other question I have from that is how is she so she's able to still use her pop up tricorder display in her mind space.
00:37:01
Speaker
That was a very jarring moment where I didn't think that they forgot that she was in the mind space. I just thought it was like, what are the rules here? And it's more like, again, this maybe could have fallen under, like, because it's cool. But it's also like you need to tell the audience that she's tracked it. But it's like, do we need her to see that? I don't think. Well, why does a 54 percent process progress? That's how much sand she's dropped already. But it's like if she's using her pop of display,
00:37:29
Speaker
Do we need sand? Can't we just follow? What's the point in the middle? What's the point of book? The book AI there. Can't he tell her? No. Because that that was her thing. And she was like, can't you help me? And he was like, no. Am I halfway? Yeah. OK, fine. He was like, I can help you. And she was like, OK, can you tell me which way to go? And he was like, no. So she was like, OK, you're not that helpful.
00:37:52
Speaker
Anyway. Uh, it was just, okay. And then the alien species being defined by an, a single trait and it's a stealth one. But if you think about it for half a second, it jumps right out at you. So in this case, the clue requires Burnham to win at therapy.
00:38:10
Speaker
Basically, and and it's the clue that was left by the Betazoid. Counselor Troy was Betazoid. So of course, the Betazoids would do the therapy session ah clue. That's just such, money you know, it's like Klingons are warriors into honor. Cardassians are fascists like.
00:38:30
Speaker
So this is just that, that extension again. Uh, I guess on a sub note of that, the therapy speak, which is definitely infiltrated all of TV writing. That was something that a lot of people started to notice during lockdown. We were all watching what's been Netflix serving up, you know, and people are kind of getting the sense that a lot of TV writers are copy pasting their own therapy sessions, copy pasting Twitter threads. That's absolutely happening. There's no denying it. So it gets a little,
00:38:57
Speaker
overwhelming and when you watch it and it's not like on every show and then it's a underwhelming when you realize like I didn't need to hear this person's therapy session. So in that sense like you're attaching a Star Trek idea to like ah a TV trope in its own way and what do you get out of it in this case is you get a really nice performance from Sonequa Martin-Green that tells us a little more about Burnham. I'm still putting under worst Trek trope because it's like of course the Beta-Z does the counseling. All right most cosplayable character or moment?
00:39:25
Speaker
Oh, the archivist easily. Hyrell's big dress robe thingy. It even looked amazing on book. I was like, Oh, this looks good on anybody with the right tailoring. I need this in my life. Like I just imagine walking out of the house wearing that I would feel like a goddess.
00:39:41
Speaker
i so Absolutely. that was highre is I that too. Hyrule is Efrosion, which ah is the Federation president in Star Trek VI. That's that alien species. Also, the helmsman of the Saratoga in Star Trek IV. Those are two other previous examples of Efrosions.
00:39:57
Speaker
in Star Trek. um And there's, let me read about that some more. But anyway, yeah, she looked great. I actually put book as the archive AI because it would be funny to watch the cosplayer maybe have a grudge while they're wearing that costume, like holding a stuffed cat. Yeah. To be like, I'm booked. Anyway, um now it's time for the line, Mr. Jones. Yeah, great lines.
00:40:19
Speaker
So I have three lines um that I really liked. I guess it depends on how we how we define great, but I usually just pick the ones that I actually like. um The first one is when Hirell says,
00:40:33
Speaker
Um, why we send them to the dungeon, of course, just kidding. We don't have a dungeon. It's more of an oubliette. And I was like, what the heck's an oubliette? So I Googled it and an oubliette is a dungeon, but it's a, it's a secret dungeon with a single entrance, which is a trap door in the ceiling of the dungeon.
00:40:51
Speaker
So the very specific kind of dungeon, which I thought was a really funny line. It would have been funnier if I knew what Oubliet was when she said it, but even googling it, I was like, Oh my gosh, like that's, that's terrifying. Cause which of these, which floor panel leads to the freaking Oubliet? Yeah. For a show that's willing to waste time explaining everything. It's funny the things they choose not to explain. They pick a word that is, is not, not common knowledge in in my, in my life at least. Also, it doesn't sell the joke that well. It's still a dungeon.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah. it's so It's very much still a dungeon. Just kidding. We don't have a dungeon. We have a secret dungeon. We have a smaller dungeon, yeah. We have an even more horrifying dungeon than what you're thinking. um And then I liked when Hyrule said, how fun to have a book visit me in the library for a change. I thought that was cute. And then when Burnham was talking to book and he was just like not helping, and she was like, be resourceful. I liked the line when she said, oh, my brain should have picked Tilly. I just thought that was really funny like because she did pick book through the connections of the
00:41:54
Speaker
whatever, you know, for the AI. So those are mine too. And you just reminded me also that I didn't put it as a great line, but i the thing that really made me perk up at 1230 in the morning when I was watching this the very first time was just when she goes, we didn't fix it. And There was such realness, rawness in that line delivery. Great lines is like the lines I liked. I have no issue with if that's the line, if that's the way that our hosts want to deal with that grade, that's fine with me. um But yeah, I just really thought that we didn't fix it. Really tell told us something about Burnham about what you want. Yeah. She wants to fix that relationship. What kind of the whole season? Yes, exactly. So I really appreciate that. And then I like the delivery. And then the only only other one I had because I have the Tilly line as well.
00:42:41
Speaker
was archive the archive AI explaining to her after she says that, ah Tilly would have been just as frustrating. I love that line too, because she was just she said something where she was like, she said, be resourceful by the way, or so or like, no, she said, I like this version of you better, the one that's actually helpful by the way. And then he says, well, Tilly would have been just as frustrating by the way. And I was like, oh, this is so great, because her AI version of book is just as sassy as book. This is so great.
00:43:12
Speaker
would this episode be a fun, hollow novel to play out? I would play this one. I would totally play this one. And I don't think it's been a couple episodes since I said yes to this question, but there's so much going on in this episode that I think would be super fun. This is like the anti last episode. This is like last episode where it's like there's no part of this episode I would want to play like no part at all. This one's like every part of this episode I would totally want to play.
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah, I would try to find a side quest in, in this one too. Yeah. of Just like, well, you could play it as well. You could play it from Rayner's POV, right? yeah So you would have a side quest of like, I got to search library to find the clue. I got to fight off the brain. I can play it in the Burnham angle. I could play it from the discovery angle, be Lieutenant Reese. Like, so I think that that's great. That's a good one. Uh, the Anton, I guess you could play it as mall too.
00:44:04
Speaker
You could. Yeah, but well that's what I put there. I was like from everything from the Badlands trip, the labyrinth, the fighting with the Breen, Maul at the end, like this, I feel like this is, it'd be like a, and instead of just watching a series of cut scenes and that's the whole game, it's like you'd be playing the cut scenes,
Holo-Novel Potential: An Entertaining Episode?
00:44:19
Speaker
right? It's just like this character, this character, this character, this character, this character and they're all doing something fun and interesting. Yeah. The Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. It's Sonequa Martin-Green, right?
00:44:29
Speaker
I actually put so so for I put her for the Shatner for her heart to hearts, because I felt like I don't know those felt really real to me. um For the Anton Caridian one I put book when he was looking at the world root cutting.
00:44:42
Speaker
and he was just like so emotional. So maybe just walk those two. David Ojala has been so great this whole season. I mean, I think he's pretty solid all the way around, but you know, it's like we need someone to convey a real emotion and actually credit to the writing, he gets actual real moments of like, we understand why he'd be sad in this moment. um I would go with that. Sure, that's fine. You thought that she, the reason why I didn't have the Shatner, her for the Shatner was because We have to give it to whoever is voicing the Primark because I... don't know how that person deals, like talks in their daily life, but that person, even through the voice filtering, sounds like the biggest baby, the biggest brat. And I don't know if that person like has a normal good life, because I'm like, you sound like an unreasonable whiner. And why would anyone do anything for you? you squat stretch Oh, how dare you? Oh, you think like it's just like, just the loudest, most obnoxious biggest baby. He's
00:45:44
Speaker
Maybe it's just a really excellent voice actor that can maybe pay that brattiness. Maybe, but that's the lowest form of voice acting is being like a petulant piece of shit. So I don't know. Like it's not. I'm saying like a lot of people can do that. So I don't know. I just, but all right, fine.
00:46:02
Speaker
And there were so many opportunities for him to shoot Maul, and I don't know why he did it. There were so many. He didn't have to kill her because, you know, she's the scion's wife, but he could have shot her in the knee or something. Did you teach her a lesson? You have honored the spirit of the Shatner by saying like, Seneca Martin Green really has to go for it in her scenes. Because even in the scene where she's like,
00:46:21
Speaker
getting upset and she storms out. yeah One of my favorite things about people who claim to be emotional, I mean, emotional intelligence might and with emotional control, storming out might be a good strategy. I just always think it's funny when it's like these, you know, she's lecturing Rainer about emotions in the early in the season. And then the moment she gets worked up, she's like, I'm out of here, even though she's in in the mindscape. That was hilarious. yeah She stormed out on a computer. guy where she can and i love straight ah you all figure this out she's like she comes away yeah wait a minute i do need you she comes back and she's like I'm sorry. I just needed a minute, which is really, that's the emotional intelligence part is to be like, you know what? I need a minute. Right? I can do this by myself. I don't even need you. Actually, there was literally nowhere to go. I walked out the door. Everything was black. So I just sat there for five minutes and then turned around and came back in.
00:47:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is the note I wrote for the Anton Caridian, but I think that it's it's fair here. And that is for a show that does the most and is just extra as like a matter of form. You know, she always gives her all and brings it and can do everything. So, you know, she is going for it. That's definitely true. ah Shoot to thrill the most exciting image or sequence.
00:47:36
Speaker
Okay, I have three. I love their their glow up on the Badlands. I actually thought the Badlands looks super cool in Voyager. Like granted, it's you know, old CGI and whatever. But I still thought it looked cool. And I was like, how could we have lightning storms in space? That doesn't really make sense to me. Because how do we have but But whatever, it looked cool. And then this version of it, I liked as well. I was like, oh, it's like fire and like lightning. And I just thought it looked super cool. I loved the way the library looked in the eye of the storm. It totally reminded me of the never ending story. So as soon as they show that scene of like the library kind of floating in the blue clouds, I just heard the princess being like, say my name, Bastian. Like it just was.
00:48:17
Speaker
It was very nostalgic for me. And then the third one is when the ship jumps, when they try to make themselves look like they were destroyed, and then they kind of like fall down from their jump, like the ship falls, and it's smoking. I was like, Ooh, because that really, that showed the ship has been damaged in a way I haven't seen before. And then I thought, can smoke exist in space? I don't know the answer to that question, but it looks super cool. So those are my three.
00:48:43
Speaker
ah Those are great ones. ah To piggyback on the Badlands bit, i mean my favorite shot of the episode is when Discovery makes it through the the rough ride and is in the eye of the storm. just it's a very It's a beautiful shot of like it's going through the clouds and you see the archive for the first time. It completely undercuts the badlands? Why is there an eye of the storm? I thought that was goofy. Right. But I and I could have also put the shot where the the green dreadnoughts tunneling through the shields. But yeah, that looked just more like basic sci fi. I just genuinely thought the shot of discovery
00:49:19
Speaker
going in there was beautiful. So it still did look cool though. You're right. that The tunneling still look cool because you had this like force field and it was kind of like rippling like water. And then you've got this beam shooting in the middle. It was generic sci-fi because that could be, you know, any show, but it still looks super dope. Like that was a cool looking scene. And then even later on, when they started blasting the library, you're like, whoa, like, and you saw the, like like the explosions, it looked really cool.
00:49:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I don't need this for me. It's I'm not trying to grade on a beauty curve. I'm just like, oh, I like. yeah I just happen to have like a lot of the beauty shots that they've done in the show. And in previous Star Trek areas, it's like, look at this flyby of the enterprise. That's a beauty shot of the enterprise. And now, you know, decades later with so much more money thrown at it, the beauty shots can be actually even more beautiful, different types of beauty in there. So I appreciate when they do them. What part of this will you teach at Starfleet Academy? I wrote that libraries can be more dangerous than you think.
00:50:20
Speaker
Knowledge is power. so And danger. What did you put? I left it blank, but i ah along those lines, you just reminded me like something about that battery technology that lets Dr. Derek's is device work 800 years later. that We need to get something to study. It was pretty um impressive. Now, maybe they're using the human electrical, you know, field as like a jumpstart. Maybe that's some part of it. Maybe we don't see underneath, but like the book has a power source built into it. I don't know. it's like But still, whatever power source, it would need to last for over 800 years at a minimum because they had no idea when the time would be right and someone would go on this quest. Yeah. Could this episode have been hornier and would that have made it better?
00:51:08
Speaker
Uh, I guess we could have had, I don't know. What do you, what do you think this is like, this is the hardest category for me. We're going to have a good answer to this question. Let's just agree to agree to agree on that.
00:51:19
Speaker
What was your answer? I put yes and yes because um I have not appreciated the lack of characterization from all since she and Locke have been hurt, captured, and he died. So she gets choked and she could have been turned on by that. And and and I think that would have been funny because it would have Set up that she's regaining her power, right? That's part of her thing is like, she's a little kinky. She's a little kinky criminal. Like that's the thing. And maybe it's because there's like, you know, sensitivity writing of like, we don't want to show abuses that turn onto people, whatever. I don't know.
00:51:55
Speaker
But like that that mall in so episodes one and two would have been a little turned on by being choked by a guy in a suit. Probably. She would have been like, you're reminding me of the scion. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like Locke used to do this to me, too. His grip was tighter. You know, like that's some shit like that because she's never been afraid of them though this whole time. She's rarely been afraid of them this whole time. She's been their prisoner. Right. And you could feel her regaining her power. So I think in this that case, it would Uh, so Trek, marry or kill labyrinths. I said Trek. I liked this episode. Yeah, I said Trek. Sure. Why not? Um, the spirit yeah, well we are, we've gotten all the clues though, and we were getting to where the the technology is. We're going to find out next week in La Grange point, La Grange point. Uh, I can't remember. I gotta to get my pronunciation guide out here. Uh, next week we'll be that episode. It'll also be Christmas Eve for some of you.
00:52:52
Speaker
So happy holidays to everybody and celebrating any holidays going on right now. Charisse, are you going to be streaming during the holiday season? Yes. I stream every Wednesday and thankfully I don't think, oh wait, Christmas falls on a Wednesday. I don't know, probably not. We'll play it by ear. But if not, if I'm not streaming on Christmas and subsequently New Year's because they're always a week apart, I will be live streaming on all the other days. And also I have like a huge backlog, not backlog, a huge library at this point, an archive, a bank, a gallery.
00:53:30
Speaker
of videos that you can check out on my YouTube channel at the Sci-Fi Savage. OK, so thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. And until then, TMK out. Bye.