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283- Film Review: Carnage (2017)
110 Plays3 days ago
A film released in 2017 that predicts the future passage of the vegan movement...but how much of it has come true already? In this episode Ant & Shane review the UK hour-long film, Carnage, written & directed by Simon Amstell. One of us loves it...!
For more about the movie visit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_(2017_film)
To watch, visit https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5txizo
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Shane & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody! A vegan future sounds like utter carnage. I am Anthony and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm also joined by Shane.
00:00:11
Speaker
I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking trouble. That's not what butt is used for. Brrr! Protein. Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:23
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of thinking.
00:00:35
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social...
00:00:44
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:53
Speaker
No I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision.
Purpose and Timelessness of Vegan Talk
00:00:57
Speaker
hey everyone this is Shane. You are listening to Vegan Talk. Welcome to the show and thank you for being here. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for being here so much. Fantastic to have you with us.
00:01:09
Speaker
I'm Anthony. I'm st still Anthony. I was a few seconds ago too. This is Vegan Talk. This might be your first episode of Vegan Talk, in which case, firstly, welcome. And secondly, just know that this is the show where we focus on any number of vegan or animal rights issues, but we just focus on one.
00:01:28
Speaker
per episode generally. We'll give it a bit of a deep dive. And then next week on a Thursday, we'll focus on something else. We do also have new shows. They come out on Monday.
00:01:39
Speaker
Sometimes we focus on people's vegan stories. So we've got lots of different types of show, but these are the ones where we pick one topic and run with it. And that kind of means that these episodes are a bit timeless. They don't really go out of date, which means...
00:01:55
Speaker
There's loads of them back there. And regular listeners, even if you've listened to 10 of them, there's I'm going to say there's over 100 Vegan Talk episodes now. So whiz back and listen to them. And I've noticed they age quite well as well. Sometimes I'll just go back and listen to one that happened two years ago that I've already listened to. And they yeah, that's how exciting my life is. But no, genuinely, it's nice to do. It's nice to do. And they're handily labelled with the topic that they're on. So what nice people we are putting these things out for you.
Exploration of 'Carnage' Film
00:02:28
Speaker
What are we talking about today though, Shane? So we are discussing the 2017 film Carnage.
00:02:35
Speaker
And just to tell you a little bit about the film, it is described as a hybrid mockumentary documentary. And it is set in 2067 when veganism is basically the default way of life.
00:02:52
Speaker
And The film says that the children 2067 are not aware of what happened in the past in the country. It's said in Britain. So they're saying, you know, we don't we don't know what people used to do. And so in order to kind of inform the children, the film looks back at the history of how veganism came to be the norm and why carnism died out.
00:03:17
Speaker
And it mixes truth and fiction starting from 1944, which was the birth of the Vegan Society, through to 2067.
00:03:29
Speaker
But most of the focus is on really like the early, mid-2000s in the years um before the movie came out and then some a little bit in the years directly after. And I remember watching this when it came out. It was streamed ah directly onto the BBC's streaming platform and catch-up platform, BBC iPlayer. I don't believe it ever aired on TV, um but you could you could just watch it straight away on iPlay. It's not available there now.
00:04:05
Speaker
However, almost all of it is available on dailymotion.com. We've put a link in the show notes for you. It starts from the very beginning. It's 58 minutes, 29 seconds long. And as best as I can remember from when I originally watched it and just from reading synopses online of the plot, I think it misses out the last couple of minutes. Yes. i do Since I just watched it last night, I will say that it ended and i was like, that that's not the ending, is it? But it was basically wrapping up.
00:04:38
Speaker
So I think you're right, maybe about two minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's not not much missing. So yeah, Shane, you've watched this for the first time, like in the last day or so.
Reactions and Themes in 'Carnage'
00:04:49
Speaker
As I say, i watched this maybe two or three times when it came out in 2017. And then I've gone a long time not watching it.
00:04:59
Speaker
oh You know, it's one of those I probably would have watched annually or or something like that. Spoiler, I am a big fan of it, but it was hard to get hold of. And it was only when we did our pre-Christmas, our sort of mid-December show in 2025, and we were trying to come up with little gifts for our listeners, whether it's a recipe or an idea or a poem or what have you. I thought, I'm going to have a look and see if I can find Carnage because that'd be lovely to share with people. And indeed, yeah, Daily Motion.
00:05:33
Speaker
Currently have it online. Apologies if you're listening in the future and they've taken it down. But as best as I can tell, it's been up there for nine years. So i think it's staying on there for for a little while. And it was um it was interesting watching it.
00:05:49
Speaker
in Like Shane says, it it sort of... It starts... Well, it's set in 2067, which is deliberately 50 years forward from when the film was actually released. So they do go into the history of of animal rights and veganism and and and you know people consuming animals and things like that. But then it it moves forward and makes some brave guesses as to what's happened. And we've had nine years of real life and some of the things have come true.
00:06:21
Speaker
and some of them didn't. and But we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that. Shane, do you want to give your initial response to the film? Yeah. So this is what I wrote down um while I was watching it. I wrote down jarring, triggering, triggering.
00:06:38
Speaker
confusing, and innovative. For probably the first 15 to 20 minutes, I was very confused because I was like, why did Anthony tell me to watch this? Because I felt like it was making fun of veganism at times.
00:06:54
Speaker
And I was like, why is this vegan film making fun of vegans? And um so I didn't really understand that it was Supposed to be funny, i guess. Did you know that the filmmaker is vegan?
00:07:10
Speaker
I assumed that and I assumed everybody in it had to be vegan. I didn't recognize anybody. So I was like, okay, these are probably like all vegan people who are known ah in the UK.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I was assuming. I will say that i there were two times that I laughed. I was kind of like, huh, that was clever. you know But when I looked at like, after I watched the film and then I kind of like looked it up, I mean, I found like a Reddit thread where people were talking about how it was hilarious. And I was like, really? Okay. I just thought it was so strange. But we can talk about that more. Those were my initial thoughts.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, sure. No, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And it's, you know, what it's it's really good to have like shining a light on, on, on different things. And I don't know, maybe assumptions. I remember when it came out being surprised that a vegan friend that I had didn't like it.
00:08:06
Speaker
um And I had, I had many people in my life who were vegan and did like it. And one of them said they didn't. And i was like, Oh, tell me Tell me more. And I think it was what you similar to what you were saying in terms of like it felt like it was taking the mick. I think they also commented... was nine years ago now, so I can't quite remember. But I think they said it came across as a bit smarmy, like a little bit like...
00:08:32
Speaker
we're taking the mick out of vegans, but we're doing it in a way that's really secretly saying that we're better than you all. And even though this viewer was vegan themselves, like they, they weren't ah a big fan of that. for For me, I think it's bold in terms of the messaging that it puts out there, because it I mean, it does show animal exploitation, uh, there, there is death.
00:08:57
Speaker
In there, not wall to wall, but it sneaks it in when you think it's just a comedy and it's just a mockumentary. And then, bam, there's a cow getting its life ended by a bolt gun. And there's other quite gruesome bits where there's just like big vats of beef mints being churned up and and and things like that that I think... For those of us that don't have flesh um animal flesh for consumption in our lives can be quite shocking. So i think it's bold in that regard. um I like the concept of looking forward. I will say
00:09:32
Speaker
ah it um Felt very hopeful in 2017 and I couldn't help feeling a bit down in 2026 watching it going, oh, he's predicted these things. I know it wasn't prediction. I know it's not a crystal ball, but there was progress that was foretold that hasn't yet happened, as well as other bits that, you know, we have nudged the needle a bit
Humor and Messaging in 'Carnage'
00:09:56
Speaker
more.
00:09:56
Speaker
Um, so I like the concept. Um, I like the, the fact that they're kind of looking back to 2017 and also using that as an excuse to look back even further. i think it's a clever device. I've liked Simon Amstel's humor for a little while. There was a ah TV, uh, sort of game show with celebrities that focused on, uh, popular music, um,
00:10:24
Speaker
in the uk called never mind the buzzcocks that he was very prominent on for many years so i i do find him funny and yeah it's it is a certain type of humor and and there are bits that um you know it's not a film with a laughter track for sure and i'm i'm not saying well if you don't find it funny it's because you're not intelligent enough and it you know it's because it's not crude enough but there are points where no it's crude enough it's Yeah, yeah never it is crude, but it but it it it will it will kind of be like, oh, this happened and this happened and this happened, which is like building up the point and and you're kind of like... but ra To the punchline, yeah. And then the punchline is like, and then they died was or something like that. and then And then they'll just move on really quickly. So I think it...
00:11:11
Speaker
My feeling is that and unless people don't engage with it, and I've not asked many carnists what they think about it, but I can imagine people watching it and not being carried along with with the wave. And it sounds like you might have not been carried along with the the wave of of narrative that was intended. and by the writer Shane, but I can imagine that happening for folks or or rather rather not happening for folks. And, and therefore you don't experience everything that was intended by the filmmakers, but I've, whenever I've watched it, I've been, would I say it was emotional? Yes, I would.
00:11:50
Speaker
I would, because i because I think it's quite intentional, the journey that it takes you on. It's not an action film where it's but ba bang, bang, bang, bang. It's not a Dominion-type film where it's just harrowing footage for 90 minutes.
00:12:07
Speaker
like It feels like there's an intentional journey and narrative and thing that the that the um that the writers are are trying to do, whether it's successful or not. Can I can i ask then, Shane, so can we focus on bits that you liked or thought were effective first? If we both do that and then we can both point to things that we thought maybe it could have done better or differently. I liked how the guy who was supposed to be sort of like the, i don't know what to call him, like a guru or like the- Troy King Jones? Yes, him. He was supposed to sort of be like the forefronter of everything, I guess. I liked things that he said, where he said at one point um in a pretend interview, it took me a while to realize this was or these like were like pretend. In a pretend interview, he says something like, we're not vegans.
00:13:05
Speaker
you're carnists. We're not vegans, you're carnists. And like I had to stop it at that point. and I was just thought about that for a while because I thought, what an interesting way to turn it because right now everybody is just, they're normal and we're vegans.
00:13:20
Speaker
But what if we didn't label ourselves, if we were the normal ones and they were the carnists? So I really liked that. That really made me think. Can I interject there, Shane, in that... I think it's fair to say, just from my observation and folk that I've come into contact with in the last 10 years or so, i would say that there are a lot of people in the animal rights movement and who identify as vegans in the UK that will use the term carnist.
00:13:51
Speaker
um And I'm not saying it's all come from this film because the term... It's from melanie Melanie Joy, right? Melanie Joy. Yeah, absolutely. So it's, you know, certainly not all all down to Simon Amstel, but I would say in the last 10 years, I've heard a lot of people using that language and and framing things in those words. And indeed, we, you know, we we do on the pod, don't we? And um I think drilling that point home and and and illustrating that actually that could be a way of
00:14:24
Speaker
of approaching things and, and having as a narrative for oneself or, or for an activism group or what have you, like where that could go, you know? Do you feel like the film then kind of introduced that term more widely into vegan circles in the UK? Because I mean, obviously everybody's not reading necessarily the same books.
00:14:45
Speaker
I don't know. i just know that like that the period in my life where I came into contact with the most vegans was directly after this. So, um, I, so I started my cafe in 2018 and was running that till like 2022.
00:15:01
Speaker
And lots of people would talk in these terms, which might be a coincidence. I, I, I'm sure it will have had a big nudge on things. And if it's, it's a clever way of,
00:15:14
Speaker
Looking at it, I personally, I think it is a bit too soon to to be referring to things in those terms. And I think I think what a lot of this film does well for me is it just gives an example of how we could get to a vegan world in terms of like that. There's a lot of.
00:15:33
Speaker
Peter were doing a lot of stuff, but it was basically per pretending to be dead a lot and people ignoring us. However, this thing that happened in the culture and popular media and what have you did have a big effect. And, you you know, I think it's just an imagination exercise ah there. And so terms like carnist,
00:15:54
Speaker
or what have you. I think i don't think Simon Amstel is necessarily saying, this is the term that we all need to adopt, and this is going to save the world and make a difference. I interpret it as a one word could nudge things quite a lot. One art installation could nudge things a lot, or it could be completely ignored, laughed at and derided. you know That's what I take from it. I thought that the way that they presented the future was a bit utopian, but...
00:16:24
Speaker
um that it was accurate in some ways and that as they were pretending to trace the timeline of the movement into the twenty twenty s and so on that they...
00:16:37
Speaker
presented people or basically one guy who was pushing back against veganism and he seemed like, yeah, that's kind of how they, how they are, you know? So that seemed accurate.
00:16:49
Speaker
Well, he, he just came across to use a UK politics term, like ah a reform UK politician candidate, you know, just like far right, just going, Oh, we need to take back control. Just saying like really gamony, just angry, not really substantial, but just sort of tired old cliches of don't you want to eat something that tastes like something does this bring you any joy eating falafel?
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. He was just angry. I guess the last thing I would say that I felt like it was a very...
Narrative and Critiques in 'Carnage'
00:17:28
Speaker
novel way to tell people about what happens to animals. Because if you look at like other animal rights films or so or vegan films, they kind of will follow this formula. Well, a lot of i don't I haven't seen some of them, but like for example, if you look at like What the Health or Cowspiracy, the Kip, I forget what his last name is, but the films he does, he kind of pretends like he doesn't know anything then he goes and asks a lot of people questions. And then like we start to learn along with him. And even though we were learning along sort of like with these people, they kind of, like you said, they kind of like sneaked in information and um
00:18:08
Speaker
I don't know, in a way that wasn't, I don't know, it wasn't as contrived as the way like Kip will do it in his films. Yeah, i I am somebody that does find it difficult to watch. that the The Kip Anderson films like What the Health Game Changers, Seaspiracy and all of that, I absolutely applaud the the time, effort, money, risk that's gone into it. And I think the impact of them speaks for itself. like they They have had a big, big impact. ah ah
00:18:41
Speaker
You know, ah just off the top of my head, I think probably Veganuary has had a bigger impact, but I can't think of many other things that's like as a single thing, you know, it's a single 90 minute film.
00:18:54
Speaker
you know, that that each of those has had. And yeah, I, I don't swallow it. I don't swallow the kind of, Oh, we didn't, we didn't know, but, but look at this. Oh. And i yeah, of course that's just a device, isn't it? But it's, it is not authentic. Yeah. i What did you like about, about the film? Oh, yeah.
00:19:16
Speaker
um everything. should move to what we didn't like. What were the highlights? um I think it's really interesting watching it nine years down the line in that it's harder to instinctively know and remember which bits are real and which are not.
00:19:36
Speaker
So there's bits where he, um ever if I'm saying he, I'm referring to Simon Amstel, the yeah director and and writer. Like he focuses on Nigella Lawson, Gordon Ramsay, Jamie Oliver, Hugh Fernley, Whittingstall, all popular UK TV chefs. And he basically takes the piss out of them. um But it's it's all done in a very British way of like,
00:19:59
Speaker
These people did this thing, which everyone thought was a really good idea. But you the subtext is Simon Amstel is saying this is not a good idea. I think it's really skillfully done because that they're picking. I mean, one could argue that they're cherry picking things to to suit a narrative in that, you know, different. Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsay, I know off the top of my head, have both said lots of things in favour of plant-based eating and and veganism. And in fact, I think Jamie Oliver says something ah about veganism being the future or plant-based being the future in in this film. But they're they're taking things that have really happened. And then they're creating other things that are not, that have not yet happened using the you know, and so the probably won't know this Shane, but like and there is a radio presenter called Vanessa Feltz, who is the woman who is doing a couple of the radio interviews and, and presentations and things on there. So it's, it's authentically done.
00:21:01
Speaker
she supposed to be in the BBC? Yes. The blonde hair. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and she does. Well, I don't know if she does now, but historically she presented on Radio 2 like a ah ah breakfast show on the BBC. So I think that's done really, really well. and And that's not an original thing to do. Like loads of filmmakers will do things like that to make it seem...
00:21:23
Speaker
real and and and things like that so i i think that was really well done on a completely different topic i love that there were a couple of bits of subtext that the monarchy doesn't exist anymore um so but yeah that i think the two references are someone saying you know going back to 2017 you do need to remember there was still a monarchy at which part i was like yeah Oh, I'd forgotten that bit. And then there's a bit later on where someone's saying, basically, the government's saying we can't eat beef anymore. Or I think it was a government advisor was saying we shouldn't eat beef anymore.
00:21:57
Speaker
And he says something like, that's a big part of our cultural identity that someone's trying to take away. I mean, they've already shot the king. yeah Like, oh my God, someone shot the king. um Well, interesting because that was before you had a king too So, and I was like, oh my God, what happened to the king? Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Obviously, I'm not wishing anybody to be shocked. No, no, no. the The end of the monarchy. I think there was some just some good little subtle points in there. I think there were several bits of it if we sort of start moving towards things that...
00:22:31
Speaker
maybe could have been done differently with or or changes that could have had a different effect. There were several bits that were done with, I would say, equal parts activism and comedy as the intention. So there were things that were done in ah in a ridiculous way. like So there's a... um there's like a a West End theater show where someone's dressed up as a cow singing this really dramatic song. That went on so long. Yeah. There's, there's somebody dancing on butter and then they fall over. There's the support group where they're saying names of cheese. Like there's lots of things where it's not incidental humor.
00:23:11
Speaker
Like humor is a, big aim of it, I would say. And I guess the risk there is that when the humour doesn't land, then you've kind of lost...
00:23:24
Speaker
an opportunity, but I do think, and we've said this on the pod before, when we've spoken about the impact of ironic things or like the, the beef and dairy network. I mean, that's, that's the, the, the spoof podcast that is out there. That's not as far as I'm aware, vegan activism going on there, but the,
00:23:44
Speaker
The way that comedy can cut through a lot more than a really sincere effort to just in inform, I personally think it's worth those risks. And if you were to, if we had a list in front of us now of 30 of the gags or setups that there are, I'd probably tick 27 of them.
00:24:05
Speaker
and you would take a different number, a less number, Shane. And the effect of the comedy is directly proportional to how well the message gets across, I think. I know, for example, I'll shut up in a second, all around talking a lot, but I know anecdotally that a lot of people really like the support group where they go around saying names of cheese. Just at at the time, loads of vegans found that really, really funny. For me, it wasn't too easy to me. Was the joke there that the last person said a name of like ah of an actual name and not a name of a type of cheese? ah I think they all say names of cheeses, don't they? It was like Eden or something. Eden.
00:24:49
Speaker
Oh, that's a type of cheese? Yeah, yeah, it's done. Okay. Yeah. No, I think the joke was just the farce of it. The fact that in the future, the thought that we eat these congealed secretions of a sentient living being is so horrific that there needs to be a support group...
00:25:09
Speaker
And people are afraid of saying the name and the word of it because it's it's so traumatic. um And so, it's yeah, it's just a ridiculous situation. Like you said, Shane, it's got shades of Monty Python.
00:25:22
Speaker
yeah um I mean, Monty Python only very, very rarely, I would say, had any form of... activism or political. No, not in that way. Anything. But I mean, some stuff does. I mean, there's a bit where, um, in, uh, uh, which one is it?
00:25:39
Speaker
The Holy Grail. Um, where Michael Palin's character is a, a, and and his mother, the character's mother, are sort of lowlifes living in the mud and the king comes along and there's this dialogue that goes on for a couple of minutes and the lowlifes are going, well, you're not our king. we Who says you're our king? We didn't say you're that that you could be our king.
00:26:04
Speaker
What the hell is going on? And it's a really eloquent argument, but he does it in a... in a really slangy sort of ah cockney way that doesn't quite match. so So there is politics in there sometimes, but it's, it's rare. But i I think the cheese sketch in, in Carnage is just the farce of it. It's ridiculous. There's a group of people just going around saying the names of cheeses because it's traumatizing for them. But yeah, it's one of those where if you're, if you're having to explain the joke, like it's not, yeah it's not working, is it? You know? No, and i love this movie for you. like i i can tell that you really loved it. Okay, things that I did not like. I'll keep it. I will keep
Content Warnings and Audience Perception
00:26:47
Speaker
it. What change? like Say what you'd change about it too. What I would change? ah First of all, I would change and I would also warn anybody who hasn't seen it.
00:26:56
Speaker
that they very quickly, without any warning, will flash to killing an animal, slitting a pig's throat, bolt just using a bolt gun on a cow. And as someone who does not like to watch that. I like with that comes up, I always block it. I often couldn't block it fast enough um to avoid seeing it. So that was like a little bit jarring and triggering to me. I mean, i've I'm an adult, I can handle it, you know, but I didn't like that. i There was no warning of that. And I understand how that could be effective, especially for
00:27:34
Speaker
non-vegans who maybe haven't seen that before. um But that i I would change that. I feel like, I don't know. I just wish there was like some way that we could and have anticipated that.
00:27:47
Speaker
You mentioned earlier about um it was hard to tell what was real and what was fiction. and i And there were a couple places where I was like, wait, is this real? Is this fiction? But mainly I would wonder if people who were carnists watching it would wonder if, wait, do they really grind up chicks in a macerator or is that just fiction?
00:28:13
Speaker
so that I feel like like sometimes it was unclear what was real and what was fiction. I didn't like how, like going back to the chicks again, there was like a one point where they did like a puppet show where the dad is like lying to the kid about what happens to chicks. And then there's like a cartoon blender that they blend up the chicks. And I was just like, I don't like, I think that's just a poor taste. I mean, I don't think that's funny. i don't like making fun of animals.
00:28:41
Speaker
dying. I mean, maybe I'm just too serious um about it. So. Well, I think the fact is that like all activism stands a chance of reaching a section of society in a certain way, doesn't it? And think think we're kidding ourselves if we think there's any form of activism and any form of crow animal pro-animal rights messaging that will appeal to everybody with the same degree of efficiency, it doesn't exist.
00:29:15
Speaker
It would be my opinion. And And it's it's great that there's a film that I'm really evangelistic, I really like, um and and you're not so keen on it. Like that that highlights that, doesn't it? And yeah and and that's an ah an allegory, I guess, for for just the work that we do and not making assumptions really yeah ah about what works and what doesn't. And I could definitely see how this could appeal to people. And maybe if you had somebody who thought it was funny and like they were a carnist and they thought it was funny and they were watching the film and then they this they were informed through the film because it really does talk a lot about what happens in the dairy industry, what happens in the egg laying industry. Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker
to other animals as well. But i think, I feel like there's a lot of focus on the dairy industry. So they might find out something and it's presented and maybe not so...
00:30:19
Speaker
like lecturing, didactic kind of way. But then there were just parts too that I was just like, what is a... like oh There was a quite long section. And now I know Americans have a stereotype of being puritanical. And we it's probably true. But there was this long section of like people dancing naked in a supermarket. And I was like, why are we watching this? I don't understand what the point of this is. like Yeah.
00:30:44
Speaker
i I don't know. And I get good like going back to the British humor. i Like I said, but I said before we started recording, I don't paint all British humor in the same brush. You know, there's, there's different types of British humor. And this i feel like is more like the, like the Monty Python kind of sketch kind of over the top humor, which I don't think it's just, I think not for me, I guess. Like I didn't get a lot of it. Yeah. I think there's,
00:31:12
Speaker
there's certain types of, of humor as well, or, or just messaging that is intended just for vegans who were along for the ride or along for the joke.
00:31:26
Speaker
And I'm not saying therefore that all vegans should, should do that, but I can think of websites or memes or, or things like that, just general messaging where I might look at it and go, ah I don't really dig that, but actually it's, you know, it's really big on vegan TikTok at the moment or whatever. And I think the film does have some of that. I mean, to take the example of the the people dancing naked in there in the supermarket aisles, by that point, that that comes good way through the film. And by that point, I'm, you know, I'm signed up um and and watching it, watching every moment of the film, just thinking, this is great. This is great. so So when that comes on, I'm just like, hey, that's happening now. Because it's like projected forward as a thing that like vegans, it doesn't take a too much of a detect detective perspective.
00:32:21
Speaker
to work out that, or to suppose that Simon Amstel's view of the best kind of vegan activism is positive rather than lectury, shouty. Although, you know, Troy King Jones, that that character does say some hard truths and does cut through the shit, but yeah like...
00:32:41
Speaker
You know, there's references to to people doing obsolete actions in town centres and just being ignored by people or being ridiculed. Whereas that is an example of, you know, vegans didn't stop people from buying meat, but um so many of them were just dancing naked in front of supermarket freezers full of meat that it was quite hard for people to go into shops and buy their meat. It's just, i took that as a, well, by this point in the film, like if you're, if you're along for the ride, you're probably going to find that funny. And if you're not, then you won't. But I, I think when when you were talking just now, Shane, I was, I was thinking of things that have touched me personally,
00:33:22
Speaker
through an unlikely source. And I'm just thinking about social justice issues that I've come into contact with through folk music. And I generally just like the music. Like if I go and watch a performer, it's very, very rarely because of their words. I just like the harmony of the music or the sound of the instruments and things like that. And folk music is is a preferred form of music for me to go and watch. And I'm really grateful to have had my awareness raised by by social justice-minded musicians and artists about certain issues where I've just gone along for the music. And I think there'll be people who, like Simon Amstel, like um this kind of British humour.
00:34:08
Speaker
maybe Maybe I'm... let's not just call Let's not call it British humour because, as you've said, its British humour isn't one just just one type and I'm excluding other nationalities from enjoying or creating this type of humour, which is unnecessary. So the people who enjoy this type of humour could be exposed to and and become more sympathetic to a vegan worldview or finding out more, finding out, well, is that what happens to to chicks?
00:34:38
Speaker
Yeah. um is Is that what happens to blah, blah, blah? Perhaps particularly, I mean, thus far i've kind of been saying... It's a shame that some of the predictions haven't come true yet and what have you. i mean, he sets out that in... Remember, this came out in 2017. He sets out a fictional situation that in 2021, there is a super swine flu pandemic that kills tens of thousands of people. I mean, he's cautious.
00:35:09
Speaker
he so yeah didn't he I feel like he said even more than that, like hundreds of thousands of people. But ah yeah, I'm sure you're right, but fewer than COVID. Yeah. ah what I guess is is the point I was making. Well, I feel like i felt like it was England too. It wasn't, I don't know if you said worldwide or not. Yes.
00:35:30
Speaker
um So ah people dying of COVID in the UK, 200,000 during the pandemic itself. Oh, okay. Yeah. So i I guess it's similar, similar numbers, but yeah, like within a year or well, it no, it's basically the same time, isn't it? Like, I think we'd still say that 2021, there's still a pandemic on.
00:35:51
Speaker
So he's got the right year. He's got the event and yeah, it was swine flu. yes He says swine flu and well, probably because swine flu was such a big thing in 2009. And so he's just projecting that into the future yeah,
00:36:04
Speaker
Yeah, it we did have a pandemic and it was animal based. So yeah, that was that was interesting that he that
Predictions and Cultural Impact of 'Carnage'
00:36:12
Speaker
he called that. But again, in terms of that bringing people in who are maybe not automatically vegan friendly, perhaps. I mean, it's difficult to get hold of this film anymore.
00:36:24
Speaker
which is ah is a shame. Perhaps we'll, we'll finish by talking about that, but like for folk coming across it now, I think the fact that certain things have come true um could could, could also be a, Oh, you know, this isn't just a load of baloney. This isn't just some, you know, vegan activist getting a, managing to persuade someone at the BBC to give him some money to make a film and then just going for it. And it's not relevant. Yeah. I mean, obviously, these people had done their research and they, i mean, the past predicts the future. So, you know, i think that's why they could have been accurate on some of these things. I mean, it was definitely a very interesting new way to present information that as vegans, we already know. And I definitely think there are people that could watch this and learn and ma might watch it
00:37:14
Speaker
all the way through or more of it than they would watch if they were just somebody put earthlings on the screen and then they'd be like nope I'm out you know yeah yeah where where do you think you would rank this as far as vegan and animal rights films that you have watched well I mean for my taste it's it's number one it's it's clear what's number what's number two like a 44
00:37:40
Speaker
um I don't know. i don't know. Like I appreciate the value of your earthlings and your dominions and your land of hope and glories. Um, and that they're hard watching. So it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's difficult to rank these things, but I, yeah, I can see the value of things like that.
00:38:00
Speaker
And there are certain documentaries that I've watched or films that I've watched that have really inspired a renewed fervor, I suppose, to my veganism. So i You know, I'm not somebody that became vegan through watching a film.
00:38:14
Speaker
and So whenever I've watched these things, you know, it's been a little preaching to the choir. That's not to say I've not learned things, but there have been things. um Have you ever watched a A Peaceable Kingdom? It's quite dated. Yes, I have watched that. But i I find that really compelling. That's ah generally folk who used to run animal farms in America and right now don't. And is there a religious? Yes, it's quite religious. And actually, that I think that's where I saw it, like at a at a church or something, which I thought was really interesting. Yeah.
00:38:48
Speaker
Yeah. I have seen that. That is a good film. I i have not watched Earthlings. to me I cannot watch those. I've seen probably... a clip from Earthlings, I think, and i' years and years ago, and I'm still upset by it. So I cannot i cannot watch those. But I have watched... i just I've like tried to think about animal rights movies that I've watched, and I like wrote down... i watch you know we Obviously, we watched End of Medicine together... christpiy i I think you guys did a review of that, didn't you? Before I was on. Yeah. And I've, I also watched that. What the hell? Rowdy girl, cowspiracy, forks over knives, the ghost of the machine. i don't know if you call blackfish, a vegan film, but I think it's an animal rights film.
00:39:27
Speaker
um We watched a 44 together. so I would, I would put carnage above a 44 because I think it add has a clear message that acting is much better um But I probably would put the other films above Carnage if I had to rank. That started so well. And it ended up with you saying it's your second least favorite vegan film. but that's ah Well, I mean, of the ones I've watched, and I don't have a whole long list. yeah Because I also didn't go vegan from watching a film, so...
00:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, I i think it's a good one. And i think it's I think there's an argument for showing it to folk that are already vegan. um Yes.
00:40:13
Speaker
ah with With the very important trigger warning. But, for you know, for for the record, I'm sorry, I didn't give you that trigger warning. I'd i genuinely forgotten there was some.
00:40:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, there was there was that footage in there um of of animals dying and and being exploited. Well, after the first time that happened, I was like, oh, I see what's going to happen. with that This is going to be a thing that happened. And I know it's for shock value. I mean, I understood i understood why they were doing it wasn't.
00:40:40
Speaker
But it's not, I mean, many, many places will, um, they will show up to the point that the animal loses its life and then the screen goes blank or cuts away, but they did not do that. you Like you know, and they didn't give you any lead up also to like the animal being led down a chute or something. No, it was like right at that moment, which if there was a lead up, I could be like, Oh, I know what's going to happen. Um,
00:41:05
Speaker
I was thinking about a friend of my family who's, she's older, she's an expat from Britain. And she, I feel like this would be something she might like. She's not a vegan or vegetarian, but she's sort of vegetarian curious. You know, whenever I see her, she's always asking me about it. And I feel like this would be something that maybe would appeal to her. So I could see this for her.
00:41:29
Speaker
I can't really see me showing it to anybody else that I know, even vegans. Yeah, it's some it's set in the UK. And as we've said several times, there's there are certain types of humour that are more common, I think, in the UK that this feeds into.
Availability and Accessibility of 'Carnage'
00:41:48
Speaker
so i don't i' never think it's an issue that it's set in the UK at all. i don't that But no, not the setting at all. just um what what about What about the fact that you it it it blends
00:42:01
Speaker
fiction with reality. um i' I've yeah not realized until this conversation, like the fact that I can take for granted that I know what's real and I know what's been created for this. And yeah, I do think that's an issue with the film, for sure. If you take somebody who knows very little about veganism and you or about the way that animals are raised for food and you put them in front of this, they may not be able to know. You might have to sit there and say, that's what really happens right there. Although they kind of address that in some ways. I feel like, wasn't there a part where, um was this in the film where there was a guy and he was saying, ah but cows, like they have to be milked or they'll die, right?
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. And I see people probably do actually believe that. oh yeah. Yeah. So then i wonder if they'd if they'd be watching it and they'd be thinking, but isn't that true? Are they saying that's not true? But maybe they're just smarter and get the humor more than I would or something.
00:42:55
Speaker
m Yeah. I mean, I understood that was like making fun of that point of view and seeing like how, you know, how dumb are you that you actually believe this? So, yeah, i I mean, I think it's fair to just say that it's nuanced, you know, but the whole film is nuanced. and yeah And so some discretion is, is needed there. um Perhaps. Can we talk about where, about the streaming service a little bit? Yeah.
00:43:18
Speaker
daily motion yeah daily motion i mean it's i do you what it what is that is i assume that was a pirate site no idea because the only okay because the only other time that i have watched it is like last year when i wanted to watch love island uk and it's on like here but it's like three days after it ah airs there and then I'm like oh my gosh I'm gonna get spoiled for what happened so then I like found it on Dailymotion and i I could like watch it like right after it like came out in the UK like the same day so that was the only time I've ever seen Dailymotion but I'm assuming that's a pirate site because i mean they're probably not supposed to be uploading don't know I mean there's about new k
00:44:00
Speaker
I mean, YouTube is arguably not a pirate site, but like people could put videos up there that, you know, are infringing copyright or what have you. There's some, you know, there are accredited users for Dailymotion. I've just got it up now. So there's the Met Office, ah the Evening Standard, 442 Magazine. So these are reputable. companies and organizations that to use it but that's not saying that uh you know their upload of carnage is definitely above board and but it's not like you can find it somewhere else so if you watch it here you're taking money away from the producer or the filmmaker of that i had i had to search quite hard to find it listed anywhere there there wasn't i couldn't find carnage behind a paywall
00:44:47
Speaker
Yeah. it that way And this was the only place where I could see the whole thing on BBC iPlayer. You can still see a couple of clips from it.
00:44:59
Speaker
Well, i can't, but you can. ah Yes. Thank you. Yeah. So, Yeah, it's and and obviously that limits the scope of how many people can see it, which I would say is a shame.
00:45:11
Speaker
But yeah, it's great. and there's There's loads of other bits that I really, really love that I just want to want to share. I think, do you know what? for it. No, I'm just going to say, if you...
00:45:22
Speaker
if you're vegan, if you enjoy particular types of humor. And I'm also going to say, if you, I mean, if you're vegan, this is probably going to apply to you anyway, but if you um spend your life or part of your life with those who have an alternative or progressive view of things, there's, I really, I think it's gentle prods and digs at,
00:45:50
Speaker
like a progressive or an alternative lifestyle. So there's just a few things where there's this chef um called Jayashanka, who it turns out is in a relationship with the the main protagonist, Troy King Jones.
00:46:05
Speaker
ah There were just loads of little sound bites that they give him that he's just like, might my grandmother always used to say, maybe just add more turmeric. And he just, said he says all these like funny things where he's he's like trying to be really profound, but it's just really banal. And it's just like, what are you talking about? um But he's, yeah, he's's he's got this like real new age kind of like,
00:46:29
Speaker
way about him which you know i'm blessed to spend lots of time with with people who uh maybe carry themselves in a similar way to jayashanka and i love them very much and i also enjoyed the gentle little digs at finding things like turmeric really profound so yeah i think there was another one was like knock knock who's there pashwari naan And that was meant to be like a mic drop moment. It's just like, you you look like an idiot. But yeah, it was fun.
00:46:57
Speaker
I liked it. I've said that lots. We want to know what listeners think, don't we, Shane? we We absolutely do. And this I have to tell you, listeners, since you can't see Anthony, he's so happy about this film. I have never seen him smiling so much. Well, you've got to watch me more a stance, Shane. No, not yet. um I'm waiting for the video. But um so if you like that kind of humor, people, you probably, this will give you joy.
00:47:21
Speaker
um But if you want to listen to more of us talking, well, not us, but other people on this podcast talking, the next Vegan Week episode comes out Monday, the 22nd of July, and it's going to feature David. Jim, Jim, Jim.
00:47:36
Speaker
Oh, sorry. I'm skipping ahead a month. Yes, it's coming out Monday, the 22nd of June, and it's going to feature David, Dominic, and Kate, and it's going to be our usual roundup of the latest animal rights and vegan news. Absolutely. Yeah. Listen to that. And if you've not watched Carnage and you feel like you want to give it a go, give it a go and let us know what you think about that, either through social media. We've got Facebook, we've got Instagram, Instagram, at enough of the falafel or email us enough of the falafel at gmail.com we want to know what you think about it and we need some tips for future films that we can review i think we've got one movie review lined up in the next month or so haven't we shane yeah it's going to be the one um about the two cows rescued from a ah farm
00:48:19
Speaker
we've got two actually because we've uh we've been granted a bit of an exclusive oh yes we've been given access to a film that is not commonly available yet but we won't say anything about that so we've got two in the pipeline but um yeah send us your recommendations because as we've shown with today's episode it doesn't have to be a contemporary film it could be one that's been out for years as long as we can get hold of it anyway that's enough of the falafel for this episode thank you shane for watching the film and for listening to my evangelism. Thank you everyone for listening. Really hope you've enjoyed it. I've been Anthony and you've been listening to Vegan Talk and we're the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:49:02
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:49:17
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:49:43
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player, to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:50:19
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.