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279- Billy & Kenny take on the not-yet-vegan 'left'
117 Plays5 days ago
Wow! Did you see all the fuss following Billy Eilish's comments (saying that eating meat is inherently wrong)? But wait! It turns out she's wrong. Because inuits. And because privilige. Sigh. Luckily, as well as Kenny Torrella's corking article in response, Shane, Mark & Anthony wade into the furore too!
In this discussion we reference Billy's original 21 second interview! https://www.youtube.com/shorts/D61i6t3PCsM
...and Kenny Torrella's response piece here: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/487818/billie-eilish-animal-rights-vegan-political-leftists
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
Like what we do? Want to help it sound even better? Join our KoFi gang here: https://ko-fi.com/ENOUGHOFTHEFALAFEL
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Mark, Shane & Anthony
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody.
Can celebrity vegans be trusted for effective advocacy?
00:00:01
Speaker
Now can we really trust celebrity vegans to properly advocate on behalf of animals? Because people seem very very cross. Cross? Cross about what Billie Eilish ida show sho shush has been saying. I might just say that a bit again.
00:00:16
Speaker
Can we trust celebrity vegans to properly advocate on behalf of animals? Because I mean there seem to be a lot of people very cross about what Billie Eilish has been saying
Host introductions
00:00:27
Speaker
lately. I'm Anthony, and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I am also joined by Mark and Shane.
00:00:34
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Brody. Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:46
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:58
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy. Go on the media. Any form of social injustice.
00:01:08
Speaker
As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:17
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hi everyone, this is Mork here, and welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk, and thank you for being here. Hey everyone, this is Shane. Welcome to Vegan Talk. This is our weekly show where we discuss topics related to veganism and animal rights.
00:01:35
Speaker
Previous episodes of Vegan Talk are available in your podcast feed, and you can listen to shows covering all sorts of interesting topics at your leisure. Indeed, indeed. You should very much do that. I heartily recommend it.
Billie Eilish's controversial comments on veganism
00:01:48
Speaker
Now, as we said at the top,
00:01:51
Speaker
There's been quite a lot of hot air released recently around some comments that Billie Eilish, who's one of these famous people, you know, you see them on the screens and everything. She was having just a ah random little interview thing on the, oh, remind me, it's the, begins with E, Elle magazine. Elle magazine. Elle magazine, she had a video interview. She was asked, what's one hill you die on? And then just a few seconds, a few seconds of content has sparked all sorts, all sorts. She said, you're not going to like me for this one. Did you like that, Shane?
00:02:32
Speaker
Y'all. Y'all. Y'all not going like me for this one. All of you are not going to like me for this one. Eating meat is inherently wrong. She then added that it's hypocritical to say you love all animals, but also eat meat. She said, sorry, you can eat meat. Go for it.
00:02:52
Speaker
You can love animals, but you can't do both. And then she throws the question card behind her whilst singing the last few words in a sort of, I'm not going to change my mind on this sort of a tone. Very short video. And there's been a lot of chat ah about it. Now, we don't normally cover sort of timely things in vegan talk. We normally talk about things that have a bit more of a shelf life. But...
00:03:20
Speaker
The response to this has, I mean, aside the fact that this isn't really news, the response to this covers all sorts in terms of common objections to veganism. What is it that stops people getting on board with these arguments?
Analyzing Kenny Torella's article on celebrity vegan advocacy
00:03:37
Speaker
Celebrities advocating on behalf of animals.
00:03:40
Speaker
And indeed, there's been an article that we are going to refer to quite a lot, written by Kenny Torella, who we've cited his work lots of times before. He primarily writes for Vox. He is vegan himself. And he's been talking about the types of people that have been making certain types of argument. Obviously, there's some generalisations there, but that's an interesting angle too. So we're just going to deep dive this particular article recent lot of events and and comments and we're going to be talking Shane but about this article that that Kenny wrote are you happy to paraphrase it for listeners I mean I will say it's a really good read and we've pasted two different places where you can access the news story or the the article I should say so we'd encourage folk to to read it but to save people pausing the show now could could you summarize it Yeah. And so again, you guys hear me talk about Kenny Torella all the time. He's one of my favorite writers. And he basically starts off the article by saying that whatever you think about Eilish, her statement was logical. And then he goes on to discuss how you might expect that the backlash that she received online would have come from the political right, but it did not. It came surprisingly from the left. And then he goes,
00:05:06
Speaker
a little bit into some of the comments that she received from the left. And he dissects all of those and kind of refutes those. And then at the end of the article, he talks about what really happens in slaughterhouses and what really is happening with animal agriculture and why the left should be on the side of animal rights and veganism.
00:05:31
Speaker
It's not a short read, but I wouldn't say there was any point when I was reading and I've read it a few times where I was thinking, oh, this is just filler. It's good quality stuff. Shane, myself and Mark have all read the article. Let's let's start off by just giving some of our responses or or kind of maybe what was particularly loud for us in terms of like a takeaway from this. Mark, you have to go first. Like, was there any particular part of the article that stood out for you?
00:05:58
Speaker
It was interesting that the um focus was on the criticism coming from left, from their left, or so-called leftists. Since I went vegetarian, then vegan first, the left have always proven personally and more broadly when I've read about them and heard about the sort of attempts to form alliances with left-wing groups, up from from animal rights groups, they've always been awful at this. They've never got it. um They're as hypocritical as the their opposition are when it comes to this, and The natural alliances that you would think would have formed on the left haven't typically. And the far right, in fact, have a bizarre relationship with the with the animal kingdom and that I will get into in a little bit. But and yes, so he's he's just saying the blatantly obvious and people's reactions.
00:06:46
Speaker
They're hiding behind class war politics. in order to excuse themselves from the individual responsibility that they know they were responsible for, but they refuse to accept. that That's all it is. It isn't politics.
00:06:59
Speaker
No, thank you, Mark. Shane, you're obviously very familiar with Kenny's work and very often will will share stories with us at Enough of the Falafel that we'll then cover. This article in particular, was there anything that that stood out for you? Well, I think like Mark said that I was surprised at the comments coming from the left.
00:07:20
Speaker
I also feel like a lot of those comments were probably coming from Gen z which is really disappointing. He doesn't cover this in the article, but that was kind of my take based on where some of the comments were coming from. So that was kind of upsetting. But I think that just Kenny always does such a great job of breaking everything down and and making everything much clearer and refuting all of these arguments. For
Billie Eilish's genuine commitment to veganism
00:07:44
Speaker
for me, there were there were two standouts things. So what I'd seen that there was a lot of hot air about Billy's comments. And I think when researching for a show maybe a week ago, as as we record this at the start of May, I'd seen a a whole thing about...
00:08:01
Speaker
her being criticized for being privileged and veganism is a privileged thing um and blahh blah, blah, that being one of the objections that is is cited in this article. But actually watching the short video, like, actually, I think she does a really good job of of advocating on on behalf of the animals. it's It's not long. It's not detailed. It's not patronizing. I think it's just really clear. It's just like... It's it's not an okay thing to do.
00:08:28
Speaker
And you can't say that you love animals and and still eat them. I know you're going to have make two points. I wanted to say one thing about Billie Eilish because I'm not a fan of celebrities saying they're vegan because a lot of times it's just because it's a diet or it's a trend or whatever. But I think that this is one celebrity who actually walks the talk or you know whatever that saying is. she All of her concerts are vegan. She doesn't allow animal products to be served at her concerts. Her mother is vegan. She runs like a feeding the homeless organization in l LA where they serve plant-based foods.
00:09:04
Speaker
Billie Eilish has been vegan for a long time. So this is nothing new. She's not doing this or saying this just to get attention or anything. She really, you know, means this, like you know, kind of like Moby, I think she puts her money where her mouth is.
00:09:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, all all power to her for for doing that. And that kind of relates to the second thing that was that was really loud for me, which is that Kenny Torella does a really, really good job of advocating for veganism and for animals themselves in this article.
Comparing advocacy communication methods
00:09:40
Speaker
And I read it as an article that... is being read by predominantly people who aren't yet vegan. um I think that's a fair assumption to make. And, you know, don't don't get me wrong, there's ah it's very important that we have vegan forums, like this this podcast is going to be listened to by almost exclusively vegans, i would have thought, having vegan cafes and vegan safe spaces where we can connect with one another, festivals, and We can feel safe and and things like that.
00:10:11
Speaker
That's really important. That nourishes us, that sustains us, that inspires us to go forward. But actually, the power of really effectively communicating with your audience in whatever way is appropriate. I mean, a social media video, the appropriate way to communicate is short, direct, bam, done. And that's what Billie Eilish does. And in the think piece on Vox, or it has been reposted on Yahoo Entertainment, that's a written piece. And that's written in in detail and explained. And when Kenny's writing the article, you know you can see you can see where he goes from one point to another to another. It's It works really well sequentially. There's lots of relevant relevant links to to things that back up his arguments and give examples of things. That's an appropriate way to communicate to that audience. And like that's such powerful advocacy and advocacy
00:11:09
Speaker
I just think the more that we can learn as individuals within this movement, the more we can learn how to do that and find out what the spaces are, what the opportunities, the ways of doing that, and big each other up and support each other in doing that, the the better, because i I think there's a risk that we can be echo chambery. And I say that you know on a vegan podcast that is vegans talking to vegans listened to by vegans.
00:11:40
Speaker
And I think there's a there's a place for that too. But... but I think props to Kenny and props for Billy for for two very different but really effective bits of communication. There is there was there was a very a very funny funny couple of minute clip of the British comedian Romish Ranganathan. Are you familiar with that guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it was at the tail end of an otherwise unexceptional interview and he was asked, was there anything else that you want to talk about?
00:12:07
Speaker
And he decided there and then to the to i talk about ah about him being vegan and people's reaction to it. I think it's about two or three minutes ad-lib off the top of his head. He he he didn't know it was a question coming. and was like ah and ah and ah anything else to add sort of thing. And it's it's from a good it's from a good few years back. But it sums up and in plain man's terms veganism and people's reaction to it and his reaction to their reaction. So I recommend people go on to YouTube and have a look at that.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's, oh, it's it's gold dust when it goes well, you know, when people in the right the right position, the right time, the right place. I mean, um Eric Adams comes to mind as well, former mayor of New York.
00:12:49
Speaker
That is his name, isn't it? Eric Adams. Yeah, yeah. um Like, you know, that I can see, i I know what Shane's thinking. i can I can see I'm not saying anything. No, no. And we'll be telling our lawyers the same. We will not be saying anything that we don't want to say.
00:13:06
Speaker
But like that the impact that his hospitals program had alone, millions of plant-based meals served in hospitals that wouldn't have been done any any other way, you know, any other mayor, I would have thought. I mean, let's let's start talking about some of these objections that are...
00:13:25
Speaker
are brought up by commenters or reposters on on on social media. Shane, do do you want to start by
Social media's criticism of veganism as privilege
00:13:33
Speaker
talking about some of the ones that that particularly were highlighted for you? Well, people talking about how one user said they stopped taking white vegans seriously after watching a documentary about Inuits who have an ancient cultural tradition of hunting seals and other marine mammals for sustenance.
00:13:54
Speaker
which Kenny Trellis said got over 130,000 likes. And- There's playing the race card, isn't it? I mean, geez. Yeah. But of course, I mean, i don't think Billie Eilish was talking to Inuit person who doesn't have enough to eat and must hunt for survival. I think she's talking to these people who are on Twitter or YouTube or whatever, who are watching her video, which is probably not most of the Inuit people who need to hunt to survive. Yeah. I mean that, that,
00:14:29
Speaker
I mean, really, it it can depress you seeing that, can't you? Like, I mean, without being the grammar police, like the the wave but way that that post is is written by River I hardly knew her, that's apparently got 130,000 likes. and and And the ridiculousness of the argument I don't take people seriously because I watched a documentary once when I was a teenager saying that some people in this really niche context do happen to kill and eat animals.
00:15:01
Speaker
Therefore, all white people who are vegan are talking rubbish. I mean, geez. Well, just what does Inuits hunting whales have to do with you? Absolutely nothing. You know, you you watch the documentary on it. it's not your life. What does that with you eating meat?
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I mean, the other one that that Kenny sort of cites is ah Lord Farquhar's ex-wife. I mean, they've got great usernames, I've got to say. Veganism is not inherently a morally superior position.
00:15:32
Speaker
The vegetables and fruits you consume are also harvested regularly. via immense cruelty and exploitation, not to even mention indigenous practices, there it is again, or food deserts, if you care about animals, the position to take is anti-capitalism.
00:15:47
Speaker
I mean, can't you do both? I think the only way you can do it is by doing both. that there there is There is a very self-serving narrative here but behind all these comments. I'd like to talk briefly about the the confusion and how mis mistaken um animal concerns have been when they've been adopted by the left and the right on the mainstream of the political spectrum, the the the non-vegan left and right.
00:16:15
Speaker
I'm going to read you out. and that there was There was a conference in 1934 in Berlin. i wonder if you can guess who was who was organising the conference. and Anyway, they had this big conference and prior to them bringing into their parliament the most radical series of animal protection laws ever seen up to that point in human history. And when you if you walked into that hall where they were having the big public conference to explain to their population what they were going to do for animals, they had the place was festooned with banners and flags of their political party, and at the back was a huge, big banner.
00:16:51
Speaker
And the banner said, entire epochs of love will be needed to repay animals for their value and service. Entire epochs of love. Now, can you guess what symbol was hanging on the flags that surrounded that banner in 1934 in Berlin?
00:17:09
Speaker
I'm guessing the swastika? there were swastikas and heading the panel was and a whole load of top party officials and they they enacted the most radical animal protection laws that they quickly wrote back on but when they were passed for the brief time that they were being enforced they were the most radical series of protection laws ever enacted and it was by the nazi part they were so radical and progressive that they're the basis of the current days germany's animal protection laws I'm not saying this to praise the Nazis, I'm saying this to illustrate how confused the issue has been absorbed by so many people who don't understand where it's really come from. to To the Nazis, it was all about the hierarchy of... did They loved hierarchy and they saw hierarchy in the animal kingdom.
00:17:54
Speaker
And that's why they loved German Aryan animals. So it it was even a racist form of animal welfare. They couldn't keep racism out of anything. So again, i not I'm saying this to highlight the confusion, not to say anything good about the Nazis, who were absolute savage when it came to nature and and ah and the animal kingdom in in ah in reality. But the the left, where you would think there would be a national alliance for people who were concerned about, who saw oppression everywhere. There is ah a slur thrown at the left, at the far left, that they see oppression everywhere.
00:18:24
Speaker
If only, if only they saw oppression on their plate and in the places that were directly pointing out to them, they can't see past their own a human supremacist point of view, that they can't see that the non-human animals in a factory farm are the most abused animal in that system, not the poorly played worker.
00:18:42
Speaker
as much sympathy as ah as I will have for a poorly paid, possibly immigrant worker who can't find work doing anything else. My hawkers asked them if they have to work in and those sort of conditions, doing those things to animals. But they are the most exploited beings there, it's the animals. And the left cannot see that. And it's always been the case.
00:19:01
Speaker
Some of them are slowly climbing out of it now. And there are Marxist feminist vegans like Corey Lee Wren over in England, who who write a lot about and witchcraft and feminism and veganism and Marxism and all that and and they have a wonderfully artistic sort of approach to Marxism but the rigid class war Marxists are as antagonistic towards animal rights or even animal welfare sometimes as people on the conservative left and I mean the conservative right and hunters and so on they it's hard to distinguish but between the two of them they have never allow themselves to consider that animals are a worthy field of study.
00:19:39
Speaker
They see it as a minus distraction by middle-class bourgeoisie people who who who only care for their own pets. all I think it comes out of the, when Marx is writing his books society then who there was a lot of people were desperately poor and the middle class and the bourgeoisie were taking care of themselves and spending more time and uh love on their their pets than they were on the workers they employed and that infuriated people like carl marx and and and frederick angles and they toward all vegetarians with the same brush as as fabians and as weak-willed and livered and you know feminine, all and all these things that that that the hard right throw at the left these days. you know But that was coming from the hard left then. you know So they've all been really confused. You never know where where you find allies in the struggle for for animal rights. It can be across the political spectrum. But the the left have never historically and contemporaneously been into animal rights.
00:20:35
Speaker
Well, I'm wondering whether the accusations of Billie Eilish sort of speaking from a position of privilege and that being, you know, a negative thing, I i wonder whether that's almost coming from the the same point of view, isn't it? It's like, oh, well, i I can't relate to what you're saying, or you can only say these things because you've got all this income coming in. So therefore you can you can afford to buy...
00:21:02
Speaker
Et cetera, et cetera. You know, almond milk and all all these lavish things that we drink at our vegan banquets. But but I mean, Kenny Torell is really comprehensively talk through a lot of objections and and where they come from.
00:21:19
Speaker
Because it's it's not a one-size-fits-all for this, is it? I think the idea, sorry to be sort gabbling on, but the social privilege, whether be a middle class or upper middle class thing, is is is thrown out by people who are equally privileged but but choose not to act. So you're born into privilege. It's like being born white or black or...
00:21:38
Speaker
whatever, it's an inescapable fact of of your life that that that would that was put into place before you were born usually. So privilege is something that sort of happens without whether you sort of want it to or not. So it's not something to accuse something else because there's nothing that that that they can do about it.
00:21:52
Speaker
So that's just having to go with the person. That's just straw manning. It's not politics. Politics is the art of change. If someone can't change a fact, then it should be out of the blue out of the political realm. And it's coming from someone who is, in essence, equally privileged. If they can sit down and use a typewriter to send an email message, they are by default privileged. so And as privileged in the sort of broader sphere of things as Billie Eilish or anyone else.
00:22:17
Speaker
So it like again, it's a nonsense that people are hiding behind. It's despicable, really, but but they're too cowardly to face up to their own inadequacies when it comes to the animal kingdom. Yeah, I think it's ah but exactly what you're saying. It's a lazy argument. And I think sometimes the left will fall back on saying capitalism, colonialism, privilege, indigenous, and they just throw those out, whether or not they make any sense in and the context of the issue that they're talking about, in this case, veganism. But I think also that we need to look at what real privilege is. What is privilege? Because we've talked that
00:22:52
Speaker
that buying chickpeas or black beans or tofu is much cheaper than buying meat. So first of all, that's that there's the privilege of the meat.
00:23:03
Speaker
Veganism doesn't have to be more expensive, but also it is a privilege for us to be able to go to a clean, bright, grocery store and pick up a package of of cellophane wrapped meat and take that home and not have to be the farmer who's putting those animals on a truck to the slaughterhouse, not have to be the driver of the truck, not have to be the workers who unload those animals, who kill those animals, who cut up their bodies, who process them.
00:23:35
Speaker
That is a privilege that we have. So who's at the real privilege here? Not Billie Eilish. That's what I would say about privilege. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there's been a couple of really great documentaries in the last few years that have focused on the human side of animal ag and folk who have been working in slaughterhouses or have done historically or or what have you. And I think that's a really strong, powerful message that like, in order for you to get these things on your plate,
00:24:12
Speaker
you require another human being to to do X, Y, Z. And that will get through to some and and still probably not not most. I wonder, we've we've understandably and rightly addressed the the fact that these things often filter down.
00:24:33
Speaker
You know, when we hear these arguments, they filter down into our politics or our our culture or or what have you. Is it possible to...
Identity politics in vegan advocacy reactions
00:24:42
Speaker
to talk about animal rights in a way that doesn't threaten people's identity politics, whether it is politics, whether it is culture, whether it's blah, blah.
00:24:54
Speaker
Is it possible to to separate the two? Because it it it feels to me like a ah lot of... What we're seeing in these objections, whether you've read the comment section in a post or a repost of Billie Eilish's original video, or some of the objections that Kenny Torella is raising, a lot of it comes down to, well, I have this identity, or I live this lifestyle already, or I have this...
00:25:19
Speaker
value set and therefore I need to take this stance on veganism in order to fit in those things. Can we can we cut through that somehow? No, because i was reading a great, related to this topic and this this interview, I was reading a great sub-stat called More Than Meats, like M-E-A-T-S, the I by Bjorn. And he talks about meat-related cognitive dissonance. And in in the other article, Vox article, Kenny Torello talks about ah The meat paradox is basically the same thing. And what in the sub stack, what he talks about is how it is easier for people to change the way they think than their behavior, which seems counterintuitive. But we see it all the time as vegans that people would rather do mental gymnastics to reduce the internal friction that that is caused when they realize that they can't love animals, say they love animals and eat meat. And you know one one point that he makes in the article that stood out to me was he talked about how studies show that vegetarians and pescatarians rate the animals that they eat or they eat products of lower on categories like sentience, intelligence, et cetera. And it just shows you that what is on your plate equals what you believe.
00:26:44
Speaker
So as long as people are gonna eat meat and want to keep eating meat it's going to keep influencing their beliefs. And it's very, very hard to change that. That suggests that, suggests that and i I agree with you, and i've I've heard psychological studies and research that, that yeah, confirms that, like, you chain to change how you think, you need to change your behavior first, which I think is why veganary does so well, because... It says, it doesn't matter what your opinions are, blah, blah, blah. Just try this challenge for 30 days. And then very often, having done that, people find that they are able to change their opinions rather than the other way around. So I do agree with what you said, Shane. But I also think, does that not confirm then that we could cut we could cut through all the different identity politics with this?
00:27:39
Speaker
if we can just persuade people to do things like veganuary just for the sake of it because it that doesn't necessarily require you changing your identity or anything like that it's like we'll just do this challenge or i don't know is that too is that too rose tinted of me but how do you convince them to do it if they think what they're doing is not a problem for the sake of a challenge, I bet you can't do this. Or I don't know, if I had the answer, I probably wouldn't be sat here. But I wonder whether it's possible to attach changes in behaviour to something meaningless, frivolous, or I don't know, something that is not affecting one's core identity, because it seems like that's the issue here with with a lot of this. So so according to the the guy that wrote the and the article that you were just referencing there, Shane. The sub-stack, more than you buy.
00:28:33
Speaker
Yes. his His recommendations based on his research into this is that when you're engaging with someone on this issue, and I quote, start by asking them, the person you're about to debate with, who what they value.
00:28:49
Speaker
Do they like animals? Do they care about sustainability? Then privately, invite them to consider whether their actions line up with their spoken values i know it sounds like therapy speak but lots of organizations already use this idea in their conversations and messaging so i mean this is essentially the anonymous for the voiceless tactic right so so they'll they'll have someone standing there showing images of the inside of slaughterhouse passerby stops looks at this is clearly engaged because they're there for half a minute, a minute or something. Another AV volunteer is standing close by observing this happening.
00:29:25
Speaker
When they feel that the person has sort of seen enough or is about to walk away or whatever, they they will then approach that person and say, well, what do you think about what you've just seen? Do you realize it's it's happening in slaughterhouses all over this country?
00:29:38
Speaker
and do Do you eat meat? Do you think it's... So so they they they bring the conversation around at this. Do you think animals should be should be able to live violence-free lives? And they'll probably say something like, yes. and then that use but But do you think this is happening here? and do So they're they're they're making the person think they're dropping those little...
00:29:56
Speaker
so truth bombs are called these days, into the person's consciousness so that when they walk away, they'll be thinking about this and hopefully, and I think it's it's a very effective tactic. I think it it plays into the human psychology.
00:30:07
Speaker
Another point that he that he makes here is that cognitive dissonance isn't, it's a feature, not a bug. It's to be expected. Everyone has it to some degree in areas of life. It's not to be I guess what he's saying is it's not to be ah despaired of, or it'ss it's pointless to despair the fact that people have or employ cognitive dissonance to allow them to continue to lead a hassle-free life, I suppose.
00:30:32
Speaker
So it should be expected and prepared for and strategized around rather than you sort of bump up against it and go, oh, no, it's there again. yeah It's always there. And it's a feature, not not a bug. It isn't ah an anomaly. it It's not just this person.
00:30:48
Speaker
it's it's you know It's everyone, really, to to some extent, you know as I say. So I think it was a very insightful article, that Substack one. Yes, Shane, I agree. I think everyone should read that. I forget who wrote it. I'm trying to call it up here on the phone. Bjorn. Bjorn. Bjorn, that's right, Bjorn. And I think they made a like good points too about don't start talking about veganism while someone is eating meat or after they've just eaten meat. Because again, the studies show that they are going to be harder to persuade. programmed to write yeah, excuse them.
00:31:21
Speaker
Because they've just done that, or they're engaged in that behavior right then. So yeah, I thought it was a very interesting article. Yeah, it's it's
Complexities of discussing veganism socially
00:31:29
Speaker
a funny actually, I hardly ever bring bring bring up the issue of animal rights veganism if I'm socializing.
00:31:36
Speaker
I've been asked about it many times, often whilst people are sitting around eating, as it as if it's a conversation starter, like what sort of car do you drive or what color are the walls of your bedroom? Or you know so you know something as innocuous that. It's coming from someone who ah has no idea of the passion that the people have around this subject, how hypocritical they're being and they're tucking into a pork chop as just saying it. And it's not that they're trying to be provocative or cruel typically, it's because they're just that unaware of themselves, I think, and of the issue. So yeah, it is surprising how often do it come up when when people are eating because people think it's a you know it's it's a talking point. you know um A talking point or there maybe they're thinking that, knowing that there is someone sat at the table with them who holds different opinion, maybe it's a case of retaliating first. Maybe they're looking for, they're seeking permission. ah Carlos has spoken about um being seen as the the vegan Pope, like avive if he's, so you know, people are seeking forgiveness. He absolves you, isn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, uh... Right, okay. No, I think that's very true. I i felt they like I was in that position as well before.
00:32:49
Speaker
it's a very uncomfortable position to be put in. Yeah. Right. I suppose I've never thought about like that. I just assumed people were just like, where did you where did you go on holidays last year? You know, just ah just a throwaway question, you know? Yeah. i Yeah.
00:33:03
Speaker
But there's like been a whole book written. It's called, do you mind if I order the cheeseburger? And it's talking about. Yeah, I was listening to an interview with the guy that, that, that, that I wrote that actually. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, it's a great book. And I mean, I've been in that position where people, do you mind if I eat that? Well, yeah, I do mind, but I mean. No, you ask. Yeah. I wouldn't be here if it was enough to put me off me from being here. You know, it's actually very insulting question. But again, I've always assumed that it's coming from a place of deep ignorance rather than, know, provocation or something, you know. But I'm talking deep ignorance here, you know. It's not a good reflection of the person. It just means of an accrual, you
00:33:41
Speaker
yeah I was at a pub with ah a couple of friends last weekend and we were up at the bar and I said, come on, ah ah I'll get these ones. What are you having? And so they said what drinks they wanted.
00:33:53
Speaker
And then one of them said, oh, I fancy one of those sausage rolls as well. And um and the other friend said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll have a sausage roll. And I just turned to them and I said, look, I'll buy you drinks, but you're going have to get your own sausage rolls. And there was a beat, just a pause.
00:34:11
Speaker
And then one of them said, well, I suppose that's reasonable. I suppose that's reasonable. They're meat, aren't they? I suppose. Like they they both know that I'm vegan. But... but that Like they both seemed to accept it, but also were a little taken aback yeah by the fact that i wasn't going to spend my money on And and i I don't know how many other vegans they have in their life. My guess would be none, but I don't know that. And it it was a, oh shit, like he really is not going to buy us the sausage rolls. but he is And it was a little awkward because like, you know, the the way that you're queuing at ah at a bar is is is not a queue. So like we were sort of all there. Are you all together? No, no, no, I'm getting the drinks. But then I took a step back
00:34:57
Speaker
but then they had to order the sausage rolls. So it was a little awkward. good And like, there were a few of us, yeah um including the bartender that was like, sorry, what, what's going on here? So. But it's frustrating that your friends didn't think enough to realize that that is offensive to ask you to buy them sausage rolls. I agree. Yeah. yeah Because I had that with my family too. And I'm like, what, I mean do you even know me? You know, I mean, i don't know how good a friends these were, but. Well, I, I think it's,
00:35:27
Speaker
You know, if if you've not had the experience of, I'm making assumptions on their behalf here, but if you've not experienced living in a way that where you've got like a really strong principle on something that is different to the majority of folk in ah in society, then then perhaps you don't realise how...
00:35:51
Speaker
how strong these things, but but because, you know, there there are things that pretty much everyone agrees on that if I was to make a step, you know, if there was someone at the bar kicking a dog and I said, hang on, what you're doing? Stop kicking that dog.
00:36:05
Speaker
that I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelid because everyone agrees on that pretty much. But i I think the fact that it's statistically unusual to kind of feel things that strongly about something that,
00:36:18
Speaker
most people don't. i I don't know. Or maybe like ah if it was a religious practice or something like that where it was like, well, actually I have to, I can buy you this drink, but not this drink because of this religious edict or something like that.
00:36:33
Speaker
it's um it's It's hard on us sometimes. I mean, obviously nothing compared to what animals go through, but but um yeah, it's just a slow education. I think if, and if Anthony's two friends are listening to this,
00:36:46
Speaker
I think they're not. I think friends generally, they they don't need to also have that same passion or interest or anything that you have about this issue. They just need to recognize that you have it and you're their friend and you need to ah be respectful around it when something like this comes up.
00:37:06
Speaker
Of course he's not going to buy you meat. He's a militant of the poster. Why would he you know It's just a basic sort of cop on rather than a shared interest. you know And friends quality of friends is that they have that that understanding of the of their compatriot, that that that they know what to and not to ask for or say in situations like this. It should be common sense.
00:37:29
Speaker
And that's the benefit of, I mean, you know, Billie Eilish's fans are not her friends. They may feel like they intimately know her and maybe they know they know facts about her life that that many many friends would know about somebody. But like when she says something about something that's important to her, a good chunk of them will listen and and will take note and Yep, many of them will say, oh, well, I don't agree with you on that and screw you and I don't like you anymore. But it will have made an impact. I wonder if we could round off this conversation by considering celebrities and how they conduct themselves with regards to animal
Role of celebrities in animal rights advocacy
00:38:11
Speaker
rights. I mean, there are obvious things that set things back, such as people that say they're vegan, and actually, it's just a diet fad. And three weeks later, they're seen in public jowing down on a non-vegan hot dog. But I mean, you know, she's been very outspoken about this. Could she have done this in a way that was really unhelpful to the cause? I mean, I mean, for starters, do do we think the way she did it was really good? Because mean, I've said I think so, but I don't know that I've heard from you two.
00:38:42
Speaker
i think it's spot on. Yeah, i I like how she said, Y'all are going to hate me for that. Probably going to hate me for this. I mean, she was like, okay, I know what's going to happen, but I'm going to say it anyway. It wasn't like it was premeditated. It wasn't like she was like, oh, all you monsters who do this. she I thought she did it very well.
00:39:00
Speaker
Yeah. yeah' a Very genuine. ah Someone in her position could have not done a very good job when asked. that Well, I mean, that question didn't necessarily lead itself to animal rights, but if we just take generally people trying to advocate for animals, how could it be done badly? How could it be done in a way that sets things back, like overly apologetic?
00:39:22
Speaker
I think there the if if there was racist overtones, genuine racist overtones like Birgit Bardot had, I think at times at least, and yet there can be damaging ways. that As I say, the the far right elements of it,
00:39:36
Speaker
have amongst their cohort, there is a tendency for a few of them to be deeply interested in in animal affairs with all the racial blood purity sort of ahology ideology intact but when it comes to non-human animals as when it comes to humans, right? they're really It's really warped. But it it can come from strange directions. So yes, if it's coming from the right wing, it it can be damaging, um ah specifically from celebrities and pop stars and all that. Yes, when it's not not genuine. But you have the likes of Brian Adams. I mean, again, not music, I'd be...
00:40:06
Speaker
interested it but he's huge he probably has millions of twitter followers or whatever the young folk are of platforms for these days um so they have a huge influence it can be very superficial but your right hand uh there there are some there will be some people out there uh considering what she has said and in a world that bangs on about how people value politicians when they speak their mind and um tell it like it is this is what she's doing she's telling it like it is and if you can't handle it You needs to up your own behavior and not have a go at her.
00:40:38
Speaker
think if she had tried to act like she was telling other people what they should do and telling them how to live their lives, but she made a point of saying, you can eat meat, go for it You can love animals, but you can't do both. So she was like, no, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I'm telling you, this is what I believe. And this is you know, what you're doing is not loving animals. Yeah, it's
Effectiveness of Billie Eilish's advocacy approach
00:41:02
Speaker
interesting that isn't isn't it because actually, yeah, she does use the phrase go for it. I mean, what we can hear that through our filter as tongue in cheek. um You know, she's not really encouraging people to do so. It's a manner of speaking rather than a word. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Yeah, good good for her and good for Kenny Torella with his follow-up article, both of which you can find through following links in the show notes. Thank you for listening, everybody. We will be putting a link to this in our social feed, no doubt, where you can keep in touch with us. You can DM us. You can comment on stuff that we post. We love communicating with you in that
Engaging with the podcast community
00:41:50
Speaker
way. You can also send us an email, enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. If you really love us and you've got the means, we've got a Ko-Fi page where we've just, just reached enough to buy our first new microphone for a contributor. That's really exciting. And you can do things like sharing our stuff with folk who you think would enjoy the show. You can rate us, you can leave reviews, lots of stuff you can do that we'd be very very grateful for.
00:42:18
Speaker
if you have the time and inclination. Thank you, Mark. And thank you, Shane, for today's conversation. Mark, when is the next Enough of the Falafel episode? The next Enough of the Falafel episode will be coming out on Monday, 8th of June.
00:42:33
Speaker
It will be Vegan Week with Anthony, Carlos and Paul and will be our usual roundup of the week's vegan and animal rights news. Anyway, that's enough the falafel for this episode. Thanks to Mark and Anthony for all your contributions. And thanks again to all of you for listening. This is Shane and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:42:59
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:43:10
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:43:40
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:44:01
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from