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289- Whatever happened to all the soy-boys?
120 Plays13 days ago
Faunalytics reckon that the rate of men joining the vegan and meat-free movements is slowing (compared to the takeup from women). Are men scared of being branded a soy-boy? Is our activism too skewed towards feminine-friendly arguments? Do we even need more men in the movement?
Shane, Mark & Anthony are behind the microphone for this episode.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Shane, Mark & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk and Gender Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Have you ever noticed there are different societal attitudes toward male and female vegans? Have you heard the term soy boy? Have you ever wondered why there's not an equivalent term for women? I'm Shane and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm joined by Mark and Anthony to discuss gender and veganism.
Perceptions of Vegans as Troublemakers
00:00:19
Speaker
I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butt is used for. Brrr! Protein. Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:31
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems I think.
00:00:42
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold maybe. Any form of social interaction.
00:00:52
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:01
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hey everyone, this is Anthony. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for sticking with us through that little musical intro there, especially if it's the 943rd time you've listened to it. This is Vegan Talk. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Hi everyone, this is Mark. and Vegan Talk is where we discuss in depth one specific topic.
00:01:25
Speaker
We have previous episodes of Vegan Talk available in people's podcast feed. I think we've got 100 plus at the moment. So if you if you fancy listening back on any of them, go ahead.
Masculinity and Meat Consumption
00:01:35
Speaker
So today we have two articles that we're going to be referencing. One of them is from Vox and the other is from Faunalytics. That first Vox article is from my favorite columnist, Kenny Torella. We need a little jingle that's just everyone going, canny Kenny, Kenny, Kenny.
00:01:52
Speaker
need like a little da-da-da. um um It starts out talking, telling us about nutrition influencer, Jacob Smith, who made an Instagram video who where he was cooking tofu. And then a lot of his followers started calling him soy boy.
00:02:09
Speaker
So he started a series on plant-based eating and called it the soy boy chronicles. And I believe it's on Instagram or not Instagram, sorry, YouTube. And the more important point the more important point of the article was the cultural idea that masculinity seems to equal
Gender Differences in Veganism Rates
00:02:26
Speaker
eating meat. And the second article was from the data and research group Faunalytics, and they detail a 15-year study of undergrads at a college in Virginia. And I was actually a psychology major, and this is the kind of thing that they do with a lot of psychology students. You have a professor or a grad student who needs who needs ah test subject, so they take all these introductory psych students and they get like
00:02:51
Speaker
have to do a certain number of experiments to get credit for things. So this is probably what was going on here. At this college, they found that women's rates of veganism in that 15-year period rose from around 4% 2008 to but men's rates of veganism stayed flat. The rates remained around three percent over the same fifteen year period with no significant change And so the researchers argued that these trends show the gender gap and veganism has widened over time. All right. So thinking of those two articles, Antony and Mark, is there anything that I missed in my brief summary, which you feel that listeners should know before we begin the discussion? I think it's worth noting that the Fornalytics article does this confusing thing where it sort of looks like it's writing veganism, but asterisking out the A. But but it's it's not talking about veganism. It's talking about people that avoid eating animals, certain animals, certain animal secretions. It's sort of
00:03:59
Speaker
lumping lots of avoidant diets or restrictive diets with regards to animals ah together. And I mean, well, I don't think he missed anything, Shane, but I think there's quite an important statistical thing to look at there in in in terms of how the data is
Navigating Vegan Discourse on Social Media
00:04:20
Speaker
presented. i don't think it's presented wrong, but I think with statistics, it's very easily to leap to a certain conclusion or think it's saying one thing when it's very definitely not.
00:04:32
Speaker
And I think it's interesting data, but perhaps we'll get into that ah in a bit. I just love Kenny. mate mainly, do you know what? Kenny writes really well, Kenny Torella, and we've done Vegan Talk episodes before on his articles. But what I really like is when he summarizes what's going on on social media so that you don't have to go there yourself.
00:04:52
Speaker
I'm just really grateful that someone wades through all of that so I don't have to. Thanks, Kenny. Listeners, obviously, you can hear that I'm female, Antonia Marker male. And since we we are talking about gender and veganism and we're talking about the male tendency...
Male Vegan Experiences and Challenges
00:05:09
Speaker
not to want to be vegan. I'm wondering about your experiences with being a man and being vegan. Mark, you want to go first? So when I went vegetarian first and vegan, it was so outlandish and abnormal, really, in the society I was growing up in that there wasn't any solidified consensus against what I was doing the way there is now. People were more perplexed than they were condemny They weren't... the idea of me being feminine because of of that decision wasn't sort of part of the criticism I was receiving. I was told that I'd be dead in six months, not that I was now a woman because I wasn't eating meat.
00:05:53
Speaker
Over time, that has become more polarised. And the right-wing Jim Brough, I'm being broad here, Jeremy Clarkson types in this world were always going to object to this. It it was just never in there in their landscape, in their mind, until fairly recently when it became more popular.
00:06:13
Speaker
And they've taken a position against it. And one of their positions is this quite quite baffling notion that that you're you're more girly or soft or effeminate or possibly homosexual if you're vegan, right? There is this sort of tendency to think in that direction.
00:06:32
Speaker
It's got nothing behind it other than acting as a ah shield, I think. There is no science or logic or anything behind it whatsoever, but it is very prevalent. it When I was doing street stalls in Galway in the west of Ireland, I was doing street stalls there for many years promoting animal rights and veganism. If someone was going to stop and give you aggressive passive aggressive sort of reactions, it was going to be a male between the ages of say 14 and 19.
00:07:00
Speaker
Always, okay? It was always that demograph. Lots of women, females in the same ah age bracket wouldn't get aggressive to you. They would just ignore you. So that there was there was different responses coming from the same place depending on the gender. we We grow up in not only a very species of society, but also quite a sexist society still, and these are norms that are imposed on people that people sort of act out. I don't think it's got much to do with the issue in itself. In this case of animal rights, it's more reflective of the society the society that these people come from, where these things are isolated into little masculine feminine sort boxes and all that. Again, would ask to stress why concern for animal welfare or the environment should be associated with the feminine. I've no idea.
00:07:48
Speaker
it's It's a figment in some people's imagination. It's it's just as valid to be associated with the masculine or neither. It's got nothing to do with either of those things. It's just a standalone issue. Investing it with these sort of things is a defense of the right wing use to ah deflect from their own responsibility in this case.
00:08:05
Speaker
um I'm probably bla blabbing on now, but that's my initial reaction to it Anthony, have you had any experiences with being a man and being vegan? Well... I mean, every day, right? Yes, I think I can talk about that subject. um In terms of anything derogatory or anything sort of, oh, that's unusual or, oh, that's the wrong thing to do because you're a man, and the short answer is no. I first came across the term soy boy when some um a man was, that I employed who who was, was vegan asked if he could get a a shirt branded with the company's branding that said soy boy on the front of it. Cause he wanted to be kind of like ironic and be like, yeah, so what I'm a soy boy, what going to do sort of thing. And then he had to explain this term to me. um I don't think I've ever had anything ah said or or inferred or ah or felt anything negative. I think, and we'll get onto this, but I think this is in a sense the issue with the statistical study that's reported in Fornalytics in that asking a man now who is vegan,
00:09:18
Speaker
Like, what's that like? In a sense, we need to be asking the people who are not vegan. And I think that's what that study doesn't do. It's saying, ah here here are the vegans. his Here's what made them go vegan. Oh, we need to learn from that. Well, no, let's ask the men who are not vegan why they're not vegan. Like, that's the more important data. I'm someone who has worked with children and young people pretty much all of my adult life with a ah five-year period when I was running ah a vegan cafe and restaurant. Like the rest of the time has been working in education and there I've received derogatory comments for being a male working with children. I've been called a pedophile. I've been, you know, I've been, I would say discriminates against positively discriminated for or against it and how that one works. But that has been something that is has been a feature. But that's for a different podcast. um But yeah, with regards to veganism, no. And there is that disparity, isn't there? I know we're going to come onto it, but um like the fact is that...
00:10:17
Speaker
of the people who are currently vegan, far more a women than men. um And also within the movement, there's a disproportionate number of men in positions of power or with voice or with responsibility or visible, especially considering the fact that there are far more people who are vegan who are women. So there's it's reflecting that same subconscious or maybe conscious sexism that there is in the world to today, unfortunately. But um no, i've I've not experienced anything derogatory or all kind of, or why are you not doing that? But i I think that might be because of the...
00:10:58
Speaker
My job, my profession, like I'm generally in quite liberal, progressive circles. And I don't know, generally working with women. i'm not I'm not bench pressing. my My sport is running by myself in the hills and the mountains by myself.
Compassion, Gender, and Veganism
00:11:16
Speaker
So there's there's not many people to go, oh, why don't you... ah To be fair, actually, like at Park Run, and sometimes people will will say ah an anti-vegan thing, but they've you know we're we're women vegans report the same thing.
00:11:30
Speaker
um I don't think that's directed at me because I'm a man. It's because I'm vegan. They go, oh, do you want a sausage? Or something amusing. You just come off when you race past them. Sometimes, sometimes, yeah.
00:11:42
Speaker
Yeah. i feel like i i mean I feel like I've had things directed at me whereas because i feel like ah society will assign compassion as a more feminine attribute. And so if I talk about veganism or animal rights,
00:12:01
Speaker
not so much now, but um when I would talk about it toward when I first went vegetarian or vegan, people would talk about, oh, you just have such a tender heart. you know like This was just because I was like too sensitive. and it And it wasn't because it was like a moral wrong or like a strong stance that I had. It was that I just was too sensitive and I just had this tender heart. And you know like that was some kind of failing. And other I just needed to toughen up.
00:12:29
Speaker
And um so that that's kind of been my experience with the i I mean, I think it is worth acknowledging from an evolutionary point of view, mammals are going, there is going to be more of a predisposition for a female to have compassionate tendencies and caring tendencies because it needs it needs to, otherwise the species dies out. Whereas a non-compassionate male mammal, you could just about get away with in some cases. you know, if the if the male of the species is not particularly caring, it doesn't necessarily threaten the life of the infant. It doesn't necessarily stop the infant growing to a stage where it can reproduce to it to itself. So i think it's just worth acknowledging that. I mean, I'm not saying men are not
00:13:23
Speaker
capable of compassion you know i'm i'm not making generalizations there i would stick my neck out and say that's just a biological evolutionary imperative her and i i think is worth just acknowledging uh i think what shane was saying there about the tendency for non-vegans to essentially to pathologize what vegans are doing right it isn't a reaction to a horrendous atrocity it's an internal pathology it's over kindness it's over sensitivity to the world around them it's it's a it's an out of touch fantasy of reality where all all beings live in peace sort of thing and that's what propels the vegan rather than a reaction to external sort of atrocity so
00:14:11
Speaker
People, in my experience, have tended to not regard me as more feminine, but to regard what I'm doing as an idiosyncratic pathflow was pathological reaction that is unreasonable by definition.
Stereotypes and Cultural Expectations
00:14:25
Speaker
And that excuses the other person from having to do anything about the issue because it's not the issue, it it's me sort of thing. So I'm sort of ah put into the slightly crazy bin.
00:14:39
Speaker
And that excuses the person putting me in there in their mind from having to answer to themselves for the for their own actions. It's a way of of othering the issue by by and it's and it's done by othering the person who's promoting that that issue. So I found that more to be a thing.
00:14:58
Speaker
I think the whole feminine Jordan Peterson sort of carnivore diet, sort of this is all quite new. you the last decade, maybe a bit more than that, and it is a reaction to to us.
00:15:11
Speaker
if If we weren't around, us vegans, there wouldn't be this carnivore diet, soy boy. than I've never been called a soy boy. I've never really associated this issue with one person masculine or feminine or anything, my experience in the more spiky end of the movement has been that it's sort of 50-50 male-female, unlike the more mainstream sort of RSPCA or animal aid or, or you know, BUAV something like that, which do tend to be predominantly um female, but but often, as as we say, led by men. Or at least that was the case. ah I know the Vegan Society in the UK had to go through bit turmoil relatively recently about
00:15:53
Speaker
being culturally a bit sort of disengaged and a bit sort of old school and they had to sharpen up their act, be a bit more diverse, stuff like this, which I think they reacted to extremely well. But it's ah as I say, it's more of ah of a reflection of society than it is the issues that we're promoting. So continuing on that line of that train of thought, there is a studies are finding a gender gap.
00:16:18
Speaker
and the and who's who's adopting a vegan diet. So how much do you feel that cultural expectations about gender influence people's food choices? is that and and Is that something that's influencing it or not? I think it depends what you mean by cultural expectations because to me that kind of implies there's a group of people or something a bit wider. And I'm not sure whether I...
00:16:47
Speaker
I would back that as being a primary motivator for people. Although, although could we say that toxic masculinity is a cultural thing? Because ah my opinion would be that that is an obstacle to men feeling as a whole, we're we're talking in general terms here in this conversation that I don't think there's any way of having this conversation without generalizing. So I just want to acknowledge that. I don't think there's a way for large numbers of men to feel comfortable enough
00:17:22
Speaker
to accept an argument of compassion, because that formalytics study was saying compassion is not working as an argument for for men. It's the environment or health is working, but compassion in itself is not. So basically head over heart, isn't it? You know, facts that show that it's healthier to be vegan,
00:17:43
Speaker
that say it's you know better for the environment to be vegan or or plant-based. That's what's appealing to men. Compassion is not so. Heart is not working. I think whilst toxic masculinity has a grip on men, I think men as a whole are going to find it difficult to to take that leap. My guess is that people like me, Mark, Carlos, Paul, you know, insert name of other vegan man that you know, i i reckon that we're not under the grips of toxic masculinity. And so we don't have a problem with saying, do you know what? I feel compassion. for that sentient being. And so I'm going to make my life slightly less convenient and bypass actions that exploit it and hurt it. But I think most men do feel a pressure from toxic masculinity in 2026. And I think then it becomes a dangerous thing to put your head above the parapet and say, well, I'm going to go against the tide there. I'm going to go against that pressure. But I think... Those of us that are in that Fornalytics study and those of us on the podcast and those of us listening, we've already bypassed that. So I'm guessing in the main, we're not affected by that pressure, but I think that pressure exists for for most men. And I i think that has to change. And it unfortunately, it's not just animal rights activists that can change that. Like that has to be a wider society thing. And I think there is pushback towards it, but change with these things is slow, isn't it? Unfortunately. i think when they're talking about cultural expectations, they're talking, uh, Kenny Torello was mentioning various advertising campaigns and he gave examples and there was, uh, he even like linked to one where I was talking about, you know, men eat meat and get your, eat your meat and, um,
00:19:35
Speaker
You know, just that they they push that
Advertising and Male Stereotypes
00:19:38
Speaker
stereotype. And so men are picking up on that and thinking, no, I'm a man. I have to eat meat. Men don't eat salad, you know. du there was There was a tendency a number of years back for big meat-eating gym bros to post video shorts themselves ah in the gym with their sort of singlets on, all sort of muscles and sweat,
00:19:59
Speaker
drinking milk, drinking from a big two liter thing of milk and the milk going down all and real sorts of almost a sexualized sort of version of drinking milk as if there was this, uh, nothing that says, says man more than a man drinking baby food. base And they were putting this forward as said I'm such a real man. Look, I'm drinking milk. I'm in the gym. I've got muscles.
00:20:22
Speaker
How they associate this with with drinking, you know, dairy baby food from a different species is bizarre. It shows the the power of branding. I do feel sorry for people that are as ah intellectually uncurious and stupid as these people seem to be and so brittle in their sense of manhood that they have to attach such falsehoods to their identity, like meat and dairy and stuff like that. It's it's almost as if they think that but by eating the the muscle of another animal, they they themselves will gain muscle. Like there was a tribe in the in Indonesia, I think, that that I thought that if you took a photograph of them, that their soul would go into the camera.
00:21:02
Speaker
and it's the It's the same sort of thinking, you know, real primitive thinking. Have either of you ever read the book The Sexual Politics of
Influence of 'The Sexual Politics of Meat'
00:21:10
Speaker
Meat? I know of it, and I've seen it being referred to by a guy a guy called John Joseph. Shane, are you were familiar with the hardcore scene over in the United States, the sort of offshoot of punk? and not really no straight edge sort of vegan really fast i mean i've i've heard of it i'm not yeah intimately familiar right so this ah guy was a singer in a band called the cromags and he's a hardcore vegan um iron triathlete sort of guy harry krishna and a really good storyteller and he talks about
00:21:43
Speaker
how books like The Sexual Politics of Meat were so alien to the people he was talking to that he had to write his own book, more or less the same as that, but called Meat is for Pussies.
00:21:54
Speaker
And he wanted to flip the narrative and present a very Jim Bro presentation of veganism. He's a very interesting character. i wouldn't go... wouldn't yet yeah It's a very famous book, this, isn't it? you know And it spoke on as well. Yeah, one of the interesting things in this book is how it has a lot of illustrations of, for example, a pig reclining on a chair with like a come-hither look. So it it just shows how, through advertising, it really does sexualize people.
00:22:27
Speaker
meat yeah in a way to say like, hey, this is sexy. Men, you want to eat this. And then, of course, also dairy, eggs. I mean, all of this is taking the reproductive elements of a woman and using them. So again, it's I don't know. It's not so much the the male of the species that is being ah used as the of so female. du du There was a campaign, i think it was in the United States, actually called Got Milk.
00:22:52
Speaker
And it was posters of famous people with a milk mustache. on their upper lip. When I was growing up, that was very popular. Yeah. Yeah. And it was promoting just the idea of drinking milk. It wasn't actually promoting a brand of milk. it I think it was it was a government initiative. It was just promoting the consumption of dairy produce.
00:23:10
Speaker
And that sort of sexualized the sort of consumption of milk as well, you know, and it was bizarre how they made it into a pornographic sort of presentation almost. And it it it really rhymes with with what that author was saying in the in the sexual politics of meat, the sort of yeah the and sexualization of this brand of food. Yeah.
00:23:32
Speaker
ah In terms of what drives people to behave in in certain ways, something I've observed with a lot of vegan men that I've met, as well as people who are quite stridently against the idea of of plant-based eating, is a real desire to be right. And again, we're talking in general terms here,
00:23:53
Speaker
But I would say a lot of men that I know and have met are really driven that they need to be right. They need to be factually correct. And I'm thinking of vegans that I've met that are men that are citing the facts. no white you know I watched this documentary and now I do it this way and it's black and white and blah, blah, blah. And equally... the opposite i'm I'm thinking of a a member of my family that is like, no, I need to eat this much chicken because that is what's going to get my muscle mass and blah, blah, blah, bla blah. It's quite factual. Now, a disadvantage to the current state of affairs is that we're in a post-truth era. So ah kind of people could just make up what's true. I'm i'm kind of broadly hopeful that like when when we were talking about like you know advertising campaigns, sort of saying, oh, well, actually you need to need to eat meat if if you're a man,
00:24:42
Speaker
i I think people are more liable to be critical of that message now. Of of course, a lot of people just sleepwalk their way through life and will just do what everyone else does. and And, you know, they're always going to be the last to change their behaviors in in any kind of societal shift of of behavior. But I'm kind of optimistic with the fact that the the disparity of numbers isn't bigger.
Men's Representation in Vegan Movement
00:25:07
Speaker
Actually, I think we could be seeing a far bigger shift. Like I've mentioned, I work in education. that the number of men The proportion of men that work in education is far lower than the proportion of men in the vegan movement. I think there's a i i think we're in a good state of affairs, rep relatively speaking. And actually, ah i mean, I put it to...
00:25:33
Speaker
to the listeners and to you, Shane and and Mark, do we, do we necessarily need more men in the movement or do we just need more people in in that? Like if, if I told you that in five years time, there's going to be 2 billion vegans on the planet. Do you care if, if they've got a willy or not? Like so surely like if if if there's a movement that's got 2 billion people behind it that's going to have a huge sway and if the lower hanging fruit
00:26:04
Speaker
are women because of maternal instinct or because of something else. I'm not saying that's what I think it is. Surely we just want people through the door. So long as they're not neo-Nazis or things like that. I just think let's let's get people under the umbrella. Let's get people through the door. the The lowest hanging fruit, let's get them signed up to this because I think there's been evidence in previous previous movements, but movements that have got more of a sway in the world, maybe like feminism or, I don't know, in insert social justice cause that's that's doing a bit better than veganism at the moment. it It may have started off being disproportionately represented by one part of the population, but actually if you get enough numbers, people start to take it seriously.
00:26:54
Speaker
I don't know. does it Would it be awful if the numbers were one to a hundred men to women, but there were a thousand times more of us? Would that be a problem? I guess it would be nice to see those numbers, but it would be curious as to why it was so skewed towards what one generation. and away from another um and that and that may call into question the sort of movements messaging or or presentation or or whatever. I do know that when we've got, there's a famous rugby player here.
00:27:22
Speaker
i forget his name because I have no interest in rugby, and but he's he's on the All Blacks team. he's He's a man mountain um and he's vegan. And he we've had done an interview with him for the magazine and and all of that. It's interesting because sometimes when we approach him to help us promote campaign or and and ah an initiative that we're doing he sort of comes back to us and say i'd love to do it but my management team are advising me against doing too much of this because i would pigeonhole myself and rugby fans aren't known for their uh vegan orientation shall we say so he has to be careful with with what he does according to his manager but at to us his his images
00:28:03
Speaker
is worth his weight in gold because it it cuts through all the sorts of superficial nonsense that teenage boys who admire people like him have around veganism and they see this big tough man that they aspire to be and who is also plant-based and it knocks down so many barriers for us and makes it so much easier to get cut through ah for and over ah for for us well when someone like him sort of takes the um or acts as the presentation you know and as the role model for us.
00:28:36
Speaker
I guess I'm wondering if that's really true because if we do have, but we're we're acknowledging that there that this study found that there are that there are more women who are vegan than men. But if we have men who are highlighted in the movement, right? So if you think of like a lot of the people that we know who are vegan, you think of like Wayne Shung, Chris Packham, Neil Barnard, and Michael Greger, Joey Carbstrong, Peter Singer, Moby, Paul McCartney. Then even on this podcast, we have six male contributors and we have three three female contributors. So we have a two to one ratio of men to women.
00:29:11
Speaker
So obviously men are out front in the vegan movement. I don't think anybody would say, oh no, it's just, it's primarily a female um fronted movement. That's changing in some ways. But if you go to any rescue group or you attend a protest, I mean, this is my experience anyway. If I've gone to a protest or if you you know walk into the offices of a major organization, you're going to see all these women doing all the grunt work and you're going to have men up representing the upper echelons. So if that's the truth, if that's the case, then I just wonder why more men aren't drawn to it. If we are giving men all of these examples violence,
00:29:54
Speaker
men who are vegan. I mean, my my quick just off the cuff response to that is is that I think the reason why men are disproportionately represented in terms of visibility, in terms of positions of responsibility, power, whatever you want to call it,
00:30:13
Speaker
in the vegan movement are going to be the same reasons that that is the case generally in business, in politics, in what have you. Maybe some conscious sexism, probably, I would hope, primarily unconscious sexism or just kind of inherent latent structures, norms and things like that, that nobody's consciously putting in place, but just that that mean that there are invisible or some visible obstacles for women.
00:30:47
Speaker
And there are fewer of those for men or things that help men just say, ah do you know what? I'd like to help. Bam. Oh, I've done it. Oh, all of a sudden I'm in this position of responsibility. i mean, I, I do feel, I don't feel defensive at all, but I do feel like it's worth saying that for the podcast, there's been no conscious screening that's, that's led us to have this ah two to one ratio. Yeah, it is. It is. My cunning plan is coming to fruition. But like you know I think there are those structures ah are there and we can do our very best to to push against them. And I hope that changes over time ah across society, not just this podcast.
00:31:29
Speaker
But I would imagine that's why that is the case in the animal rights and vegan movement in terms of why more men aren't attracted to it.
00:31:40
Speaker
i I think it's it's as simple as you need more than just a figurehead with the same genitalia as you to make a lifestyle change. I love the fact that when I went to a vegan festival as a vegetarian 16 years ago, watched a a video saying actually why dairy and why eggs and and things like that weren't in, you know, weren't okay. And being vegetarian wasn't enough. I love the fact that Benjamin Zephaniah was,
00:32:10
Speaker
narrating and and featuring on the video, not because he was a man, but because he was someone I knew. and it was like, Oh, look, there's a person I recognize who's doing that. I think the fact that he was a man was irrelevant. And there's plenty of men on screens out there that I think you are a reprehensible character. I want nothing to do with you, your ideas, everything.
00:32:32
Speaker
anything like that so i think whilst it can help to have someone that you relate to i think it would it's a bit too binary to be like oh man's saying it so i'll agree i'm i'm more likely to be like huh you come from the same part of the country as me that's interesting or oh you like the same football team as me or that that's more likely to pique my interest than oh it's just a man otherwise i'd be you know loving jeremy clarkson and nigel farage and donald trump wouldn't I i think and you lucked out getting someone like Benjamin Zephaniah to be the first person that you heard going on about veganism. The first time I saw him, he he he used to play with a
00:33:13
Speaker
ba called conflict a lot he used to used to come on and do a couple of songs of conflict and yeah i think that and one of the strong reasons that a lot of males aren't attracted towards veganism is that there is because they're a lot less tough than they think they are and they're terrified standing out and research into the so into into the psychology around um people dropping out of veganism would with their sit sit suggest that social not ostracization but standing out socially by being conforming
00:33:45
Speaker
not non non-conforming on such a regular basis three times a day so openly often in front of other people in a restaurant or something like that and declaring your position and be consistent with it is or can be seen as very hard work for some people and they're terrified of the prospects of being talked about sort of ah negatively or having the piss taken out of them in short as I say they're a lot less tough than they think they are and the the The truth is is that I would
Insights from the Faunalytics Study
00:34:13
Speaker
say most people, or at least back in the day, attracted towards these ideas were very strong-willed people and very tough people because they needed to be, because that the slack they would get for adopting this position was, you know in some cases, quite severe you know and ongoing. i think that's still true, yeah. Yeah, yeah. yeah So it's the the opposite is true of all this. It's that the the strong people are the vegans and the weak people are the people are afraid to go vegan.
00:34:38
Speaker
you know? um Yeah. So it's, it's, it's complicated, isn't it? Anthony, you wanted to dive into the ah data and the phonalytic story a little bit. And um I know you love talking about data. i I think that I probably simplified the results from the story a bit just because data isn't my thing, but I would love for you to dive into it a little bit more for the listeners, what your, what your takeaways were from that.
00:35:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think I've touched on it already, that the main sort of takeaway here. So, I mean, we've you know we've got US university students being being tracked or at least reporting on their behaviour of over 15 years. So it's covering ah a big proportion of time. We've got 12, nearly 13,000 undergraduates. So it's a good sample size, more or less equal numbers of women and men, though slightly more women, interestingly. And they're they're talking about their dietary habits. So ah I've not really got issue with the the study design here or anything like that. Shane, you've already covered, you know, in in terms of the proportion of those people that reported that they were vegan or vegetarian or pescatarian or vegan. or something like that, some sort of excluding animal products. Basically, more of the women ah are becoming vegan or otherwise, over the last 15 years, men more or less staying the same. But I think the thing that I really take issue with
00:36:02
Speaker
is the fact that when we're looking at the reasons for veganism, vegetarianism, pescatarianism, we're just focusing on the people that are. And as interesting that is, and as, you know, history can inform us about the future, can't it? You know, that's why, i mean, history is interesting as a story, but also we can learn from history and try and avoid the same mistakes and try and repeat the same successes. So we shouldn't discount this,
00:36:31
Speaker
But I think it's worth noting that if around 3% of men are vegan, vegetarian, lacto-vegetarian, pescatarian, or whatever, or whether it's 5% or 10%, depending on where you live in the world, i.e. a minority, the 90% that aren't, there's a good chance that they're going to be different types of people.
00:36:54
Speaker
to the people who are. We've already discussed the fact that perhaps me, Mark, Paul, Carlos, we're not representative of most men, just in general terms, like forget our diet, forget our ethical choices.
00:37:09
Speaker
We're not necessarily representative. And to do the best for the animals, I think having studies that focus on why are the 90% not changing their behavior is the focus and maybe we would still find the same thing that oh actually only 30 percent of men are influenced by ethical things but 40 percent of them are influenced by their health improving we might find that but i i think it's it's just a trap that you can fall into with statistics where you're kind of like oh it shows this well no it shows this from the people that were spoken to and unless you want to change the behavior of the people that you're speaking to
00:37:54
Speaker
You need to ask different questions, I think. and But still still interesting, still interesting, still potentially useful. It doesn't give us the answer, though. It hints as what an answer might be. And I think that...
00:38:06
Speaker
The interesting thing for people, if you want to come away with it from this conversation and say, well, what does this tell us? what How can we go forward with this information? Is that the Faunalytics study seems to suggest that if you're going to be talking to a man about veganism that may be stressing...
00:38:25
Speaker
I mean, obviously, it's going to every man is different, but it may be stressing environment the environment or health might be a more persuasive argument for a man rather than talking about um animal welfare. And then I feel like in the Vox article, he's also talking, Kenny's also talking about the cultural narratives that we have about what is masculine And he's saying, should we change that?
00:38:52
Speaker
i don't know that we as individuals can change that, but maybe you know just being aware that you're going, to that that might be in the back of someone's mind, or they may have been raised in that atmosphere.
Gender Roles in Vegan Leadership
00:39:04
Speaker
I think something that we can do as well, like ah I'm genuinely not interested in there being a higher proportion of men in the movement. If I was literally the only person male vegan ever, then yeah, I'd probably be feeling a bit lonely. um But I think there's enough. I think there's enough. It's it's fine. And the the facts are always going to be enough to to draw enough men in that we'll always have someone to talk to online or otherwise.
00:39:31
Speaker
But I'm genuinely wondering whether... If we doubled down on attracting people through compassion and through going vegan for the animals, if that meant that we had more people in the movement and that there was an even bigger disparity because we were recruiting way more women in the next five years than men, I think that would be a success. I think that would be a great, that would be an, that would be an Improvement for animals. Fewer of them were being slaughtered and being abused and what have you. And so I do think we need to look at what are we subconsciously doing as a movement? This is not an original observation, by the way. What are subconsciously doing or consciously as a movement that is preventing women's voices being heard equally um and women's
00:40:18
Speaker
being in positions of prominence and, you know, asking ourselves like, I've got this opinion of this, this person, would it be the same if they were a different gender? You know, am I saying that that man who's being really shouty and really passionate, am I saying that that's a really good thing? But when it's a woman doing, I'm saying, blummin' it, they're opinionated, aren't they? God, they get on my nerves. Are we, have we got double standards here? And that can be an uncomfortable thing to do as a man who sees yourself as on the good, on the side of good to to kind of examine yourself further and be like, Oh, am I being unconsciously sexist here? It's an un...
00:41:00
Speaker
uncomfortable thing to do and you've got to be in the right frame of mind to do it and whenever I've had the balls to say could you just tell me woman in my life what what I do that's like actually unconsciously sexist or you know there's normally an answer and I'm grateful to hear it in the long run so I think we can always do more and if that encourages more women to become vegan that's just as good for the animals I reckon I think women have to take responsibility too, because I know as a woman, obviously, that we are often, i don't know if it's socialization, but there can be a hesitancy to step up to a leadership position because you might be given that opportunity, but then you might think, oh, I i don't know if I'm qualified for that. I i don't know if I could do that. Whereas I feel like men will be like, okay, I can do that. And I just think there's a different sort of mindset. Like even with with me joining the podcast, um
00:41:58
Speaker
you know, Anthony, you emailed me and after I had written in a few times and you said, oh, would you would you like to join? And then I'm thinking, oh, I don't, why would I join? I don't think anybody wants to hear what I have to say. You know, I had to think about it a long time. How long were. I had to think about it a long time thinking, okay, well, maybe what I have to say is just as as valid as what anyone else has to say. So I feel like if that is also your experience and you're a woman and you're listening, you know, then, you know, be conscious of that and, and take those leaps maybe.
00:42:27
Speaker
So it's not always, it's not always men. It's also women sometimes holding ourselves back. that I mean, we've spoken about perhaps female biological evolutionary imperatives. Maybe there is a male biological evolutionary imperative to bullshit and to just go for things without thinking them through. Maybe maybe maybe that like maybe genes that are predisposed to do that are more likely to to be passed down. Yeah. I think it's socialization because boys are praised for being like go-getters and assertive and women are are called names if they're too assertive or too bossy or whatever. So I think of that that is is probably more socialization. Although I don't know, maybe, you know, and not one of the articles in the Vox article talked about how
00:43:17
Speaker
the old idea that men were the hunters and women were the gatherers is not true, that people hunted in groups and that women were also hunters. But, you know, maybe that, maybe that men have to be braver to rush forward and take that risk, whereas women don't have to to have that. But, you know, maybe historically, maybe that's not true.
00:43:35
Speaker
ah Me and Alex did today yeah a bit of a imagination experiment ah before we started recording this show. And we imagined for a moment a politician, a right-wing politician called Nigella Farage, and just imagining like how the the female version of Nigel Farage would have been treated and and responded to. And it was quite hard to imagine, actually. ah that My hunch would be that they would have just been shut down and not taken seriously and not got the same traction.
00:44:05
Speaker
All you have to do is look at what what people said about Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris and yeah in the United States when they ran all the horrible things that were said about
Wrap-up: Societal Influences on Veganism
00:44:14
Speaker
them. you know It's worth bearing in mind, I suppose, that that ideas of what is considered to be masculine changes over time.
00:44:21
Speaker
When I was growing up and the pop stars in the 1980s were people like ah Prince and Michael Jackson. Poison. Yeah. and the be and vo and They have makeup on, their hair is bouffant. I mean, if you try to present yourself like that as a pop star today, you'd be laugh ah austin power is obviously sort of wiped all that away with its parity of it. But what is considered to be masculine changes all the time.
00:44:47
Speaker
right Right now it tends to be, for a lot of people, for for a lot of young men, tends to be sort of a masculine, shaven-headed, tattooed tough guy. In a generation's time, it could be back to the purple suit, flared, shirted, sort of, you know...
00:45:05
Speaker
curly haired, you know, all this, sort you know, of prints, you know, so it does change all the time. we We wouldn't do a ourselves too many favors by bending over backwards to falsely present ourselves as masculine in the way it's considered to be today, because that'll change tomorrow.
00:45:20
Speaker
So if we stick to our guns, I think we we ah will have the cut through eventually. Um, I would like to echo something that Anne said a while ago is that the disparity is two to three, say two females, say I mean one male to every two ah females. If it was ah genuinely unnatural position for a male to adopt, the disparity would be much greater.
00:45:46
Speaker
So what we have is is socialization rather than a a DNA deep sort of thing, ah if that makes sense. I think we're dealing with the product of a sexist society rather than inherently an inherent male avoidance of compassion towards animals.
00:46:06
Speaker
All right. Well, great conversation, guys. And listeners, thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, we'd love that if you could do us a small favor and subscribe, rate, share the podcast, write in to us. if If we've said something that has offended you or that you agree with, or there's a ah point that we didn't mention that you think is relevant, we'd love to hear it. You can email us at... oh Well, Mark's going to tell us that. Go ahead. Yes, so we love hearing from people. And to get in touch, if you would like, you can DM us on Instagram or Facebook or email us at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. falafel is all one word.
00:46:41
Speaker
Oh, and the next episode, it will be coming out on the 13th of July featuring David, Dominic, and me, Mark. And it'll be Vegan Week, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:46:55
Speaker
Indeedly doodly. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Shane, for all your contributions. Thank you every single one of you out there listening.
00:47:05
Speaker
You're why we do it. I've been Anthony. You've been listening to Vegan Talk and we're the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:47:16
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:47:30
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:47:57
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player, to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:48:32
Speaker
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