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287- When is it ok to kill a bug?
60 Plays9 hours ago
Is this an animal rights grey area, or do the principles of veganism explain exactly how to treat the tiniest of insects and critters? David, Dominic & Kate are behind the microphone for this episode.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
David, Dominic & Kate
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Transcript
Introduction and Ethical Dilemma
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello everybody. It seems like we all love dogs, we all love elephants, we all love whales, but how about mosquitoes?
00:00:11
Speaker
How about ticks? How about biting horseflies? Our question for today is, is it ever okay to kill a bug? My name is Dominic and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm joined by David and Kate. Welcome to Enough of the Falafel.
00:00:29
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:42
Speaker
Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:53
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy, gobbledygook. Any form of social injustice has...
00:01:03
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:12
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everybody. it's Kate here with you. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you're not feeling too
Insect Sentience and Morality
00:01:27
Speaker
itchy. yeah uh you might be by the end of it though anyway so anyone who hasn't uh listened to one of these vegan talk episodes before there's loads i've got no idea how many but there's loads in our back catalogue on all different subjects philosophical ones as anti-reliates to call them or um you know maybe reviewing a film or a book or yeah all kinds of topics so please have a have a rummage and enjoy so yeah this week we'll be discussing an advice column that appeared in late april in the future perfect newsletter from vox.com a reader wrote in with this question spring is here which means the pests are back my parents house has an ant problem
00:02:16
Speaker
I found weevils in my pantry and I know people with wasp infestations in their places. I hope none of this is a euphemism. Yeah, tick season has begun and last year's bed bug scare was legitimately traumatic.
00:02:30
Speaker
I don't like killing insects, but if they're in my space uninvited and I can't just take them outside and easily prevent from coming back, I'll do it. But I do feel bad about doing it, even sparingly. I think it's plausible that insects feel pain, so I try to make it quick.
00:02:47
Speaker
Yeah, I'm still making the choice to kill them, and it's not one I'm proud of. I think that pests, like all living things, have some moral weight, but there's not enough room for the two of us.
00:02:59
Speaker
Is it bad to kill them? Is there a more ethical way to approach this? Well, thank you for reading that, David. So, yes, this is an article from Future Perfect. And there is Seagal Samuel answering the readers by arguing that while insects may be sentient and capable of feeling pain,
00:03:21
Speaker
Seagal Samuel argues that does not automatically make killing them morally wrong in every situation. think one of the key points is that recent scientific studies suggest that some insects like bees, bees,
00:03:36
Speaker
Fruit flies may have conscious experiences. Beers appear to play, seek stimulating substances and make trade-offs involving pain, while fruit flies show depression-like behaviour that responds to antidepressants. as Samuel says recognising insect sentience can create guilt about killing them, but moral consideration is more complicated than simply all sentient beings must never be killed.
00:04:06
Speaker
harmed Now, I think that the definition of vegan that I follow is a definition of reducing pain and suffering for all life. And the term reducing, I mean, that's a really contro controversial term because it's not a...
00:04:30
Speaker
one with a single definition, like because, you know, there are people who interpret reductionism as in, oh well, I eat less meat. Is that helpful? And there are people who argue, yes, it is helpful. And people who argue, no,
Intentional vs. Unintentional Harm
00:04:43
Speaker
there isn't. Then you get absolute defining folks who go, well, it's impossible to stop all suffering because you and your vegans, insects are killed when they're harvesting your crops, aren't they? Which is where I would say, yeah, there's a difference between reducing harm knowing that there are insects killed somewhere in the world when you know wheat is being made compared to me consciously going out and you know squashing spiders or stamping on snails or swatting bugs i think there is a there is a difference and i i do recognize that we live in a world that's full of suffering and i really, really want to do everything that I personally can to reduce suffering.
00:05:27
Speaker
And me willfully swatting bugs isn't one of them. I always go, and um this is me talking from a position of privilege, because I live in a, I have a life where I do have time two clean. And I'm not saying that facetiously, you know, ah i certainly could spend more time cleaning. I've got more than enough time. I could spend a lot more time. But people are overworked and under-resourced and people let their homes get into states because there are so many demands placed upon us. And that can be a reason why bugs, you know, can come come to be, you know. and
00:06:07
Speaker
i Just know that at my grand age of 47, I haven't personally felt the need to destroy bugs because all my stuff is...
Personal Stories and Experiences
00:06:20
Speaker
well-maintained, well-cleaned, and I've not personally had a problem with that. That's maybe an oversimplistic thing, and certainly bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to good people, and I can imagine someone suddenly having a terrible situation with ah insects and animals you know, i'm I'm lucky that's not been the case. What's your view, Kate? I mean, have you ever personally had any problems where you thought, oh my word, look at this, locusts everywhere, what on earth is going on?
00:06:51
Speaker
My dad used to have a thing about ants. I don't know what it was. He had an obsession with ants. and And I think, I don't know, sometimes I used to think that attracted ants to him.
00:07:03
Speaker
Everywhere, you know, quite often they'd have like an ant infestation in the house and And he would be just like, and he would put down poison and what have you. But personally, don't know, as humans, quite often we we where we think of bees. Oh, they're they're good insects. They, um you know, they do nice things. They pollinate the flowers. They, you know, without them, we wouldn't have apples and all that kind of stuff.
00:07:31
Speaker
oh mosquitoes they're the bad ones because they bite us but actually i have a problem with mosquitoes i have to say they are not my favorite insect and if i find one having a meal on my leg for example i don't gently lift it off and take it outside i i just can't help it i just swat it But I know it's not terrible, but is it is a dilemma. It is a dilemma. Spiders, loads of people hate spiders. I i love spiders. we've We haven't got a tidy house, Dom. No. I'm not top of the cleaning. I hate cleaning. There's a difference between and clean. they're too do i mean i never said mine was tidy. I never said that. I know. Well, mine's not very clean either at the minute. It's terrible, I have to confess. But, yeah, we've got loads of spiders. i mean, I don't know. Didn't you grow up with those lovely big... um Most people think they're horrible, actually. Horrible big spiders. But I i really like them, those big spiders. and house spiders. house spiders.
00:08:35
Speaker
yeah yeah love them as well you love them do you yeah i do i love them and i i have to say mostly i let spiders be i'm just looking around my room now yeah there's a cobwebs but you know i i think well they're doing a pretty good job where you know they they catch I know, the cats, the flies, oh dear, the flies, poor flies.
00:09:00
Speaker
ah but to But do you know what I mean? So yeah, I have more of a live of let live thing, except when it comes to mosquitoes. And I don't really like horse flies either, because they give a really nasty sting. especially if they're around kids, you know, i don't know. it's um that That's how i feel. and and And if I see somebody else about to squash a spider like I did the other week, I run over her and they say, oh, you know, I was going to hoover it up or something. I'm going, no, no, don't do that. Here, let me take it. I'll rescue it and take it outside. and Because i I don't like gratuitous hurting of insects just because, i don't know, i think...
00:09:43
Speaker
There's a lot, there there is a lot, like you were saying, there's a lot going on there that we don't know, like in other animals, you know, just because they haven't got a language. Don't you think? I don't know. What do you think?
Moral Considerations and Social Context
00:09:55
Speaker
Well, I think that um philosopher Elizabeth Anderson would agree with you. That's something that's brought up in the article. Elizabeth Anderson argues that morality depends not only on intelligence and sentience, but on what you were just talking about, Kate, relationships, survival needs and social context. So there can be a whole ah level of interaction and and society that that we don't necessarily realise is going on on a surface level. I think that...
00:10:29
Speaker
there is a difference between gleefully killing things and a reaction to, oh, this has caused pain. So I've only ever once been stung by a wasp, and that's when a wasp was inside something that I was wearing, and I put it on and it stung me. And yeah, similarly, I had a reflex reaction, and that wasp died. I didn't even know it was a wasp. I was just like, ah just my my my limb flung out in pain. And I would have preferred to have not killed a wasp, but I did, and I can live with that. You know, I'm fine. But similarly, I've always thought, and maybe one day this
00:11:14
Speaker
approach to existence will literally sting me. I've always thought that wasps react if you flail around, they're more likely to attack you. So there have been plenty of times when I've been in schools in a summer's day when the windows have been open and a wasp has come and all the children go, ah!
00:11:36
Speaker
And it'll be flying around me. I'll just be like, look, it's not hurting me. And I think I'll be careful, Dominic. Be careful with your like, you know, saintly attitude to animals. You'll look a right fool if it does then like, you know, bop you on the nose. But it never has. I'm like, look, you know, I'm not bothering the wasp. The wasp hasn't bothered me. And I've been able to calmly get like a glass and a little bit of paper, put the glass over They're like, but it's a wasp, but it's a wasp. I do remember as a child, when I was a child, when I wasn't the one responsible, I do remember us putting down poison for the ants. I say us, I didn't. It wasn't like a family activity. Come on, little Dominic, let's get the the powder out. It wasn't that. It wasn't that. But um yeah, like I say, I've got a real privilege that...
00:12:23
Speaker
I've not really been faced with that. However, however, however, if we're talking life, ah I have had as a, you know, a person who used to have hair on my head. I mean, those days are far, far, far behind me. I don't think I've had hair on my head since going vegan. But when I did have hair on my head,
00:12:44
Speaker
I did get head lice and I did put lotion on to kill the head lice. And I wonder if there's a comparison to that and the horsefly thing. I think that if something's directly causing you pain or suffering, I think there's a stronger argument for just like, oh, spiders, they're unsightly. They're, oh, you know, what ugly beasts. they You know, like if I thought... ah spider was gonna bite me and inject me with venom which none of our uk spiders have the capacity to do but that would be a different argument to just uh spiders you know so that's uh that's i think uh my argument there um
00:13:28
Speaker
David, you're a little bit ah newer to veganism. I hope you don't mind me outing you as a newer vegan. But I know that David, as somebody new to it, has really read up on like you know what is veganism and and me as a long-toothed, old and definitely bald vegan. you know I don't know. I mean, is is is veganism saying that we must live a life in which no harm ever happens ever?
00:13:55
Speaker
ah Well, no, I mean, for me, veganism has never been about claiming humans can live a life where we cause absolutely no harm. That's impossible. Simply existing means we will impact other like other living beings in some way.
Compassion and Historical Perspective
00:14:09
Speaker
What veganism asks asks is um whether we can reduce unnecessary harm where we have a choice. there is a huge difference between accidentally stepping on an insect, protecting yourself from genuine danger and killing an animal simply because they're inconvenient or because we don't value their life.
00:14:29
Speaker
I think the evidence around insects is fascinating because it reminds us how often humans have underestimated other species. Throughout history, we have repeatedly assumed animals are less intelligent, less emotional, or less capable of suffering than they actually are.
00:14:45
Speaker
Rather than saying, prove this animal deserves compassion, maybe the kind of starting point is, if there is a chance they can suffer, shouldn't we take that seriously?
00:14:57
Speaker
The relationship question is interesting too. Of course, we naturally feel differently about a companion animal we know compared with an insect we have never noticed before.
00:15:08
Speaker
Relationships shape our emotions. But I'm not sure our emotional connection should be the only thing that decides an animal's value. A pig doesn't become less capable of suffering because we never met them.
00:15:20
Speaker
And an insect doesn't automatically have an experience just because we don't understand them. I really like the idea of harm reduction because I think that's where veganism becomes practical. It isn't about perfection or never making difficult decisions. It's about approaching other living beings with respect and asking, is this harm actually necessary?
00:15:42
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. I remember when I was a lad, I grew up ah by the beach and i was such an unpopular child. It was so rare that anyone ever wanted to play games with me. And so ah one time, one boy from my school came round. and we' We're having a walk along the beach and he picked up a rock and was just smashing it against limpets. And I was just absolutely horrified, absolutely horrified. I was i was quite new to vegetarianism and just...
00:16:12
Speaker
It was one thing thinking, oh, I need meat to eat, which was a view I'd, you know, rejected. But seeing it for for not even sports, just just just a way of being, just smashing limpets just because they were there. And i was like... Stop doing that. And it was so horrible because I didn't want to lose the chance at a friend by saying something that was challenging that could result in us falling out. And he did stop, but he didn't really get it. And he was like, they're just limpets. And I was like, yeah, but they're not harming you. Why do you need to harm them?
00:16:51
Speaker
You know, so, yeah. I guess it's hard, isn't it to i mean, a limpet, does it have a central nervous system and stuff? Are they i mean really drawing trying trying to work out whether a limpet has an emotional response and feels pain? We don't know, do we? We just don't know. But you know ah there's there's a lot of research now on um insects. And I just think they're wondrous. If you, you know, if you ever looked at you know, you get some insects, they're like like the size of a, like a little full stop or something. And, you know, they've got these little legs, they've got their brains, they've got their wings, and they're just like amazing little creatures. And you just...
00:17:35
Speaker
you know, just makes me, you know, gives me like a sense of wonder, really. And um and you were talking about the ah the wasps earlier. I'm the same. I don't react around them. And actually, i really worry because...
00:17:51
Speaker
um you know i'm now 63 years old and um i just remember when i was a kid there were so many insects everywhere including wasps loads of them and then you know i i don't think i've seen a single wasp this year and i i live in a kind of quite a rural town Where are they?
00:18:13
Speaker
Where are they all? And i ah don't I think they go mad at the end of the season when they' when they're kind of trying to get ah gather up sweet stuff in order to hibernate. I think that's when they start going a bit crazy around people's ice creams and sticky sweets and stuff like that. and You know, or jam sandwiches or something. But, you know, otherwise, like and they're so clever. You know, the way they...
00:18:38
Speaker
um you know, they chew wood and they make their they're kind of honeycomby homes, don't they? They're just, they are so clever. They are really, really clever. And you talking about summer memories makes me think of how, even as a child, I was never particularly a sweet tooth person. Now, ah today, David and I have had the great joy of eating an absolute mountain of chips. I feel like all David and I ever do is ah brag about the the the vegan junk food we've been eating. On one of our previous shows, we were talking about ah devouring vegan burgers and all these are wonderfully ultra-processed food. But today it's been chippy, chippy chips. And I was the same as a kid, always savoury snacks. So maybe that's why the wasps leave me alone. I'm not out there eating doughnuts or ice cream, not even as a child. So that's what they're really drawn to. I think that ah that might be part of my privilege as someone unbothered by our ah sting-wielding friends. yeah I guess so. But on the whole, it's humans against insects and the humans are winning at the minute, aren't they? they insect I worry a lot about insectageddon and the destruction of um
00:20:01
Speaker
you know the the killing of all the insects with all the sprays and stuff. And I, for one, I know i know this is about insects and not slugs and snails, but, you know, um i am trying to to grow a few vegetables and fruits here. And what's not eaten by the muntjac in our garden is, this is a little town garden, by the way. We've got muntjac, we've got pigeons, we've got caterpillars, we've got slugs and snails, all trying to eat us.
00:20:32
Speaker
our stuff and i I go out at like half past 11 and we've got little polytunnel and I go in there and you can guarantee there's a load of new snugs and snails in there trying to help themselves and I'm So i i don't i i just I gather them up and I put them in a bucket and then I carry them to the ah the other end of the garden in the hope that it's going to take them at least the rest of the night to find their way back. But um yeah, um'm I'm afraid it is it is hard, isn't it? But yeah, we've got to we've got to find a way to live with the the ah the insects, um not just kill them, I think.
00:21:14
Speaker
i think it's really good that we've got this article to to talk about. I never shy away from having a viewpoints challenge. And as is so often the case, I've wandered my way into this being like, well, I don't really know what I think because, yeah, I spoke about edlice. I've spoken about limpets with with very differing reactions. I don't know. ah How do you feel about this being a topic of discussion for this show, David?
00:21:41
Speaker
um Yeah, I think if anything, discussions like this reinforce why I'm vegan, not because I have every answer, but because I think the question matters. ah The fact we are even discussing whether a bee or a fruit fly can suffer shows how much there is still to learn. When we're uncertain, i would rather choose curiosity and compassion over assuming another being's experience doesn't matter.
00:22:06
Speaker
And the article we're discussing asked one of the hardest questions of all is, do we extend compassion only when it is easy? Or do we try even when the life we are considering is so completely different from our own?
00:22:19
Speaker
Absolutely. And I remember when I was investigating Buddhism, and I'm not a Buddhist, I don't identify as Buddhist, but i studied Buddhism for quite a bit. I moved into a Buddhist commune for a while and the cliche image of the orange roped person with a brush sweeping the floor in front of them so as to not accidentally step on any bug really resonated with me. I really thought that is a good thing. I still think that's a really good thing, a more mindful life. I know how devastated I feel if I accidentally step on a snail or slug. I'm really, really sad about it, really, really sad. And I curse myself for being part of the modern age in which we rush around rather than being like the Buddhist monk, being more mindful in our steps. um
00:23:15
Speaker
As somebody hypocritically who's part of a podcast, who's part of bringing information and ideas and discussions via modern technology, I really like any moment I've got where I'm away from my phone, where I'm away from any devices and I can.
00:23:32
Speaker
be a little bit more one with breathing and walking. I'm sounding so hippy-dippy here, but there's something lost in being less connected to the natural world around us, which includes insects and slugs and snails. And they're not our enemies. There's enough lettuce to go around for all of us, isn't there, Kate?
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, do you know what, though? We have we have got um an an insect, in fact, there's several different sorts of insects on our side.
The Lone Star Tick and Veganism
00:24:05
Speaker
and Have you heard of, um I i ah first heard of it, I think, in America, ah where you've got those ah ticks,
00:24:14
Speaker
called the Lone Star Tick, that their bite makes people allergic to meat. Have you heard about that? Do you know what? i Yes, on one of these shows forever ago, and I'd completely forgotten about it. I'd completely forgotten. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:33
Speaker
Tick whose bite makes you allergic to meat. What a thing. What a thing. I know, I know. but ah and apparently so I i looked it up. um And 2009 in the States, there were only about like 24 people who got it. But now there's like 450,000 who are who um and they think maybe it's underreported. And I i was like, I asked AI, I said, Do you think this will turn the world vegan?
00:25:06
Speaker
apparently not i'm like oh no because of course um that yeah apparently you have to keep getting bitten in all otherwise it fades after like one to five years i'm like oh darn it and of course a lot of people don't go wandering in forests where there are deer But apparently it's in different parts of the world as well. Different ticks have got this the same um thing that they are giving to people. They're giving them an allergy to meat. So it's not just in America.
00:25:42
Speaker
In Europe as well. And apparently there's been one or two cases in the UK.
00:25:51
Speaker
but So I'm like, how can how can we how can we spread this? Insects are on our side. Yeah, they're pointing back. Insects are side.
00:26:02
Speaker
Definitely, definitely. Well, folks, I'm going to ask one more question. ah Does this article change your mind or reinforce previously held beliefs? i think this is quite a fairly written article. I think it does lean on the side of reducing... rather than absolute action that can absolutely stop all harm and suffering. And I know, like I said right at the beginning, that that's a controversial point. I know some older vegans, some people who have been vegan for so many years, who are you know more advanced in age, who lament how...
00:26:40
Speaker
the word veganism is sometimes inappropriately used for people who just, oh, I only eggs five days out of the seven days of the week. And, you know, so, well, that's not vegan, is it? Without being too gatekeepery, that's literally ah an incorrect use of the noun. So, you know, you're not vegan, are you? You're not. But um I still believe, yeah, that...
00:27:04
Speaker
we are setting ourselves up an impossible task if we think our existence will not cause any suffering ever. But yeah, I think it's um a really big different question as to to whether we're doing something. You know, what is the reason? What is the reason? What is the reason for causing harm to an insect? Is it because we're literally hurting? We've gone, ow, and we've just had a reflex reaction. Is it because, you know, would i would I,
00:27:33
Speaker
Would I swat a wasp if I thought it was going to harm a child who was in my care? You know what? Yeah, I would. Yeah, I would. I mean, it wouldn't be my first port of call. But if I absolutely thought it's a choice between the wasp or a child, I mean, that's one of the things that non-vegans throw at us. Oh, you know, if ah if it was a choice between...
00:27:54
Speaker
you know, saving an ant or like watching a child fall off of a cliff into shark infested waters. You know, you'd let the child go to the sharks. You'd save the ant, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you? And he's like, oh, no, I wouldn't actually. No, I wouldn't. Although...
00:28:10
Speaker
That scenario has never, ever come to me. It's never come to me. So, yeah, I liked reading this article. um I'll ask Kate next, then I'll ask you, David. Yeah. Is this article something that that um sort of supported your previously existing thoughts? Have you ah come to have new thoughts as a result of reading
Respectful Approaches to Pest Control
00:28:29
Speaker
it? What do you reckon, Kate?
00:28:31
Speaker
Yeah, um I have been com felt conflicted in the past. And like and yeah, like I say, i have I have swatted mosquitoes and stuff like that. And yeah, I have i have also...
00:28:48
Speaker
poisoned a load of head lice as well especially when they're on my kids heads you know or you can get these electric devices as well you can kill them electrically as well if you want to did i feel guilty about the head lice no i didn't you know did i feel guilty about the mosquito no i didn't um but yeah like you say i've willfully killing something that you could trap and take safely somewhere else yeah i would try and do that every time because um yeah i do think there's so much about insects we don't know and this article does talk about how um at least i think it does i've read it somewhere how bees can play you know and ah like you were saying you know fruit flies they're so tiny and yet
00:29:40
Speaker
they can show signs of depression in as much as when if they're given an antidepressant, they they like perk up, you know, i mean, that their their little brains are so just because they're tiny, you know, we don't understand maybe they're working on a ah nano scale or something. i don't know. i'm i'm not a a scientist in that way. But you know,
00:30:08
Speaker
just because we don't understand them doesn't mean we can't um you know as far as we can practically um be kind and considerate towards them and actually your your thing about the the yeah as vegans oh yeah ah you know thousands of insects were killed for your whatever it is, plant burger
Agriculture vs. Livestock Debate
00:30:32
Speaker
or something. Well, many gazillion, million trillions were killed for your beef burger. So many more because of the acres and acres and acres of land that have gone to feeding the the poor animal that was then slaughtered for your burger. So, you know, that argument doesn't stack up. We're just trying to do the best we can, aren't we? That's all we're trying to do. so you yeah.
00:30:58
Speaker
yeah That's my thoughts, Dom. Yeah. Thank you for asking me. Yeah. um i my thoughts, I think I agree entirely. I think, you know, we need to respect life.
00:31:10
Speaker
I think we don't need to understand it to respect life. I think it's just, it's another life form. I mean, I do share and what everyone's opinion, you know, both Dominic's and yours, Kate. I think, uh,
00:31:22
Speaker
you know I would swat away a wasp if it was to protect somebody who might be allergic to it. um ah I would protect somebody from another human being in the same way. um i would like swat and have swatted mosquitoes because it's caused me pain or because it might carry an infection that might kill me or a parasite like malaria. um So there is a self-protective element there.
00:31:49
Speaker
I try to live my life in a way that doesn't cause harm to any living being, but we do live in a world where that's increasingly harder to do. um But I wouldn't go around if a fly comes in the house or a wasp, I wouldn't go around trying to kill it. I do try and get it out of the house.
00:32:09
Speaker
But having four cats here, that's nature's way of getting a fly out of the house. I let the cats go after a fly and I feel less guilty about it, but I would rather get it out of the house because the house is a um a human construct. We have the houses that we live in and the way that they're built and it becomes a fly trap. So the fly hasn't chosen to come in here and chosen to what I'm sure it's not on a suicide mission.
00:32:36
Speaker
um So I do the best to get it out. But I do feel less guilty with the cat, I have to admit. I mean, that's not the best way. But the cat is, you know, doing what a cat does. you know a human doesn't have to kill a fly or it's not our instinct to do so. So that's the way that I choose to to live. For sure. And there's a huge difference between a cat doing something to a fly yeah and spraying a whole load of ozone damaging spray. It's a whole other podcast, isn't it? Talk about the damage we do with aerosols. But we will leave that for another time. Thank you so much, David. And thank you so much, Kate. And thank you all our listeners for listening. If you have enjoyed this show, we would love it.
00:33:24
Speaker
if you could do as a very small flavour, please subscribe, rate and share this podcast. Yes, we love hearing from people and to get in touch if you'd like, um you can direct message us on Instagram, Facebook or email us at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. The next episode of Enough of the Falafel is available from Monday 29th of June. And it features the wonderful Anthony, Mark and Shane.
00:33:57
Speaker
And then Vegan Week, our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news will also be on every week, right here, right now.
00:34:08
Speaker
Yay. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you so much, David. And thank you, Dom. You are ace. Thank you so much for all your contributions. um And thank you all our wonderful, wonderful listeners out there. I've been Kate and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:34:38
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:34:53
Speaker
And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:35:19
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:35:40
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from