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295- Lessons from self-directed sheep
99 Plays6 days ago
We might feel like we 'know what animals are like'...but where has our information come from? Are we generalising an animal's behaviour, based on how they present in industrialised animal agriculture? In this episode, we turn to Julie- and more specifically the four sheep in her life- to see just how much individuality there is in animals, as well as how different animals present in a non-exploitative setting.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Kate, Anthony & Julie
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Introductions
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody. Now we're often philosophical on vegan talk, but if we get a bit psychological for a moment, I wonder how much of animals' behaviour is dependent on their surroundings.
00:00:16
Speaker
And while we're on the subject, how are those four sheep doing up in East Lothian that we often hear about? Well, I'm Anthony. Of course, I've got Julie with me. Otherwise, how else would we hear about those four sheep? And we've also got the brilliant Kate.
00:00:32
Speaker
And this is Vegan Talk.
Animal Behavior in Different Environments
00:00:35
Speaker
I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what but is used for. Brrr! Roaty! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere.
00:00:44
Speaker
We're not doing that in the state of Florida. Should I call the medium and say, hi, sorry? True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are.
00:00:55
Speaker
That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems of things, you know. What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social...
00:01:08
Speaker
As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:17
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and yay Hello, listeners. This is a really special vegan talk for you here. Hello, everybody. Julie here This is our vegan talk episode where we have a chat about one particular topic in a bit more depth.
00:01:37
Speaker
And if you want to check out some previous chats that we've had on a variety of different topics, they're all there in your podcast feed. And if there's any topic that you would like to hear about or comment on that isn't there, by all means, let us know. Absolutely. Yes, we're rapidly approaching episode 300. So there's, if my maths is anything to go by, there's probably about 150 or so of these queuing up waiting for you.
00:02:06
Speaker
So if we think about people's perceptions of animals, that's going to come from somewhere, whether it is their own personal experience, whether it is what people have told them, maybe the narratives, the stories, the folk tales that they've heard, maybe things they've seen on screens and things like that. We might have lazy stereotypes like chickens are stupid or sheep have no individual personalities. If we were to pick two uncharitable, and we would say untrue stereotypes.
00:02:41
Speaker
But as we said at the top, we're going to be talking today about how different those behaviours might be if the context change. For example, a lot of people see and think of animals in farmed situations and contexts. So is that how they behave the whole time?
00:03:01
Speaker
Or do they behave differently outside
Sheep Behavior and Personalities
00:03:03
Speaker
of that? And if indeed they do behave differently, outside of that oppressive environment, how can we give more visibility to these other sides of animals that do exist? They are arguably their true nature, because if we could do so, the the argument would go, well, people are more likely going to be able to open up a more compassionate, empathetic side to themselves. Julie, we have had three previous episodes where we have put the focus squarely on the sheep that you look after, that live very close to you, that are in your life.
00:03:42
Speaker
you've already spoken a little bit about the differences that you've observed in them in your life that go against the common perception of sheep. Are you able to revisit some of those we might have already spoken about already or anything else? Yeah, I can give you a summary. And I think the first thing to say is that people's perceptions come from the context that they see these animals in. but also from the limits of our human brains that aren't as clever as we like to think. They very limited. They're very, they're necessarily human centric. And when we are understanding animals' complexities, We don't really have the equipment to make judgments about much of it, to be honest with you. But from my own experience, before had sheep in my life, I only saw them in fields, in big groups, moving in herds together, usually running away. I was kind of, I would probably use those idioms like other people, you know, followed like a sheep or, oh, somebody's just like a sheep or something as in something very quiet and passive that just kind of followed and everything. And yes, a lot of the sheep that you do see in agriculture are in sort of flight mode and are on high alert and in survival mode as well, just because of the way they're kept.
00:05:12
Speaker
The sheep that I have in my life, are they are extremely different. And to sort of sum up, because they are not in survival mode, they're very well fed, they have lots of energy And so in agriculture, lambs are the only type of sheep that will sort of jump and play usually. And as they get older, they stop doing that. Well, the sheep in my life behave and jump around i am and play, and you know not when the weather's boiling hot, but you know on other times, and ah particularly as the light nights come in and the spring arrives, they do a lot of jumping around. but they actually have times of day where they exercise themselves.
00:05:59
Speaker
So they actually take exercise. So there are pinpoint times of the day where you know they will do their sort of running around. So they are very, very playful and energetic. They are curious. They have confidence that you don't see an animal, agriculture, sheep, because they have, some of them have never had any kind of
Stereotypes and Misconceptions About Animals
00:06:20
Speaker
rough treatment. I do have two sheep in the field who have experience of sort of things being done to them before they were in my life like you know with Kendrick had being castrated and things so some of them have had horrible things but in the main they have trust and curiosity and confidence they're territorial they're competitive each other they're very assertive with me they don't see me as anything to worry about I am a scratching post and and a bringer of everything that they need. And, you know, they they don't worry about me at all, despite the fact I'm a predator species to them.
00:06:59
Speaker
And within that, they have their own extremely different personalities. They react very differently to and situations. They don't just flock around and have a kind of and collective consciousness. And contrary to what I used to think and everybody else thinks, that they're really hardy and they don't feel the cold. I have two shelters in the field, the merest spot of rain and they are rushing to those shelters. They love to stay dry and warm. They are not stoic about cold weather at all.
00:07:30
Speaker
I mean, that's such a clear, good example, isn't it, of how behaviour is contextual. If you don't provide shelter for an animal, you could so easily fall into the trap, ah like you say, Julia, as so many do, of thinking, oh, they're hardy. Well...
00:07:49
Speaker
you know, we would come across as hardy if we had no option of going into a shelter. Yet, of course, we know we we want to seek shelter where where we possibly can. Goodness, yeah, there's so many misconceptions that we can correct ourselves on and challenge others for. Kate, I wondered just in in your life and experience of of having animals in your life or or just fleeting experiences of non-human animals.
00:08:17
Speaker
Is this something that you've seen too in in terms of animals' behavior completely changing depending on the context? Oh, crikey, yes. Unfortunately, I haven't got any direct experience of sheep, although they sound absolutely wondrous and and mysterious as well. Still, even though I've heard Julie talk about them, they're still quite a big mystery for me, really. You know, but obviously dogs and cats and things, you know, yeah.
00:08:47
Speaker
Oh, my word. Do they, you know, i had a little dog once called Henry and he was rescued from a family and we'd had him, think, probably about two years when suddenly the family turned up. I think they'd they'd been kind to him. Unfortunately, they got divorced, but they had two little boys that I think probably played quite roughly with him. But two years and he was like,
00:09:17
Speaker
you know, remembered them. He was like, he was he was growling. He was like like, I don't want to, you know, he I had to pick him up and cuddle him. He was really, he he he didn't want to go with them. And yet at home, he was completely, well, completely different. And then another time, he met...
00:09:38
Speaker
his old neighbours and he hadn't seen them for about five years. He still remembered them. They had looked after them. They had they had um given him treats and he practically yowled the whole street down. He was so happy to see them, you know, and, um you know, he he was, you know, Clearly there's so much going on in his head, so much, and, you know, that we had no idea about, you know, and behaving completely, completely differently in all those cases. So, yeah, and i'd I would love to to to know more about about sheep and what goes through their little heads, to be perfectly honest. I mean, how how have they been in all the, have you had much heat where you are?
00:10:25
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Has it been very hot for them? Yeah, well, for Scotland, yeah, it's been pretty hot. They're fine, though. Are they? They don't mind the heat so much? Well, they I mean, ah they don't like it, but they've got two shelters.
00:10:38
Speaker
They've got trees to shade under. They've got their water completely changed twice a day. They've got ah an actual fan going all during the day, eight hours a day, in one of their shelters.
00:10:50
Speaker
And they've all been shorn, so... do they do they get sunburned though they've been shorn do they get sunburned no because they've still got a fleece on they've not got it's not just skin they've got fleece on and they get lovely herbal fly repellent on every single morning that it's a dry morning so there's no flies on them either there so yeah that the shelters up at the field are actually cooler than my house I mean, something that that strikes me, so just for for context, led the previous episodes that we've done ah have been, ah you know, I've been a similar situation to Kate. I've i've heard a little bit about the the sheep that Julie has in her life without having met them. But since our previous episodes, I have a couple of months ago. had the the joy of of meeting the gang. And in terms of, to to your question, Kate, about managing the heat, their autonomy is a a huge tool there and a huge resource, isn't it? And in terms of looking at animals' behaviour in industrial animal agriculture, to what extent do they have any autonomy at any point, you know,
00:12:00
Speaker
Maybe it comes in degrees or tiny little micro bits of autonomy. But but the lovely setup that the guys have that Julie set up for them means that to a larger or lesser extent, like you were right on on a hot day, you you go somewhere shaded and you don't do much.
Animal Communication and Emotional Responses
00:12:18
Speaker
You know, you're not necessarily doing laps of of your house or your and or your garden, right? And that that plays a a big part of things too. And ah I'd like to touch on individual personalities a little bit here in that i had a conversation with a reasonably older child um in the last week or so who was saying how stupid chickens were and they can't even recognise members of their own family and things like that, which is not true when they are in situations where they...
00:12:52
Speaker
could reasonably recognise their own family. But yes, in ah in a huge barn of 20,000 other chickens, then yeah, that's going to be a lot harder, isn't it? And think of all the stress and and things like that. Like Julie, in terms of the individual personalities and differences that you see of an animal that's generally considered like it's a herd animal, individual personalities might not be what people would expect, but it it is the case, isn't it?
00:13:21
Speaker
Yeah, and I can give you a hopefully quick example of that in that, as I said, out of the four of them, three of them are sheep who grow wooly fleeces that sadly need to be shorn. Rona is the exception because she's a soy sheep.
00:13:36
Speaker
So I did a process with roa with Rona sori that she actually quite enjoyed this year. She used to be a bit scared about this being done. It's called rooing, where you just use your fingers and her fleece just came away. I did it in stages, I didn't do all at once. So Rona has a lovely short summer coat now and she stayed beautifully cool over the summer and the other three sheep were all shorn. So this is the difference. So the first sheep to be done was Iris, the wee brown and white Shetland ewe and she is the
00:14:09
Speaker
is older than Kendrick and Nuala. She's not as old as Rona, but she's a wee bit older. She's eight. So she's been cheered a few times. And Iris has ah an extremely accommodating and helpful nature. She's always trying to please and to be helpful. and The only time where she gets really and sort of assertive and amazingly so, because of her Shetland heritage, there's not a lot of food on Shetland, so she's extremely assertive about food.
00:14:39
Speaker
Very. She suddenly becomes really assertive. But other than that, she is the most accommodating little, I would like to help you and please you and cuddle you a little sheep. So when she is shorn, there are a set positions that the shearer, you know, a standard set of positions that sheep are put into to be shorn.
00:15:00
Speaker
Iris will literally facilitate that. She will not wait to be moved. She will stretch her leg out. She'll kind of turn over. She does the routine like a wee funny sort of ballet with the shearer in order to help him out. And when she's done,
00:15:17
Speaker
She is neither up nor down. She's just quite pleased to have been done, probably feeling quite a lot of gratitude. She doesn't need that wee mindfulness bell saying I appreciate you. She's doing it. And she's neither up nor down. She's just back to eating the grass as calm as anything. it doesn't Her breathing doesn't even change, you know.
00:15:36
Speaker
She's that chilled. Nula. Who loves my Shearer. Nuala really likes men better than women, I've noticed. She is definitely sort of... She wants to play and interact with men more than women. She finds them fun and things like that. And the Shearer she has...
00:15:57
Speaker
dreadful fun with and he's very big and strong Nuala's tiny but she really mucks about and takes him on and so they have a bit of a tussle with each other and when she is done she wants to continue to sort of let off steam she does we play fights she wants them to to play the game i that nula and i invented called bump which is essentially a button game which i shouldn't be doing with her but nula and i like to do things we're not allowed to do so she will initiate games she'll nick the tools out of his tool belt she'll mess about with them she wants to follow him around everywhere and she wants Sort of round two. Once she's let herself be shorn, she wants to get one over on him. So she wants to challenge him to other things.
00:16:47
Speaker
So she lets off steam by jumping around and mucking about with the shearer. and So that's her. It gets her a bit high getting shorn because it's a bit like a game.
00:16:58
Speaker
Kendrick, on the other hand, although he is a confident sheep, he's a big male sheep, there are some men who really frighten him and certain characteristics of men, they must look like maybe the person who castrated him or whatever, certain men really freak him out and the shearer is one of them. And he, again, he does what is asked of him and he lets himself be shorn and all the rest of it. But I noticed in particular this year that when he was done, i mean, he looks so gorgeous. I can't get, I mean, I just want to follow him around and video him and photograph him because I'm so besotted with him and he looks so gorgeous.
00:17:39
Speaker
But he let me know. that actually he just needed a bit time out. So I watched him. I thought, oh, no, no, Kendrick, this isn't funny. Kendrick's not laughing here. He's needing a wee bit time away. So I watched him. He just walked away to the corner of the field and he literally slowed his own breathing down.
00:17:59
Speaker
He looked at the view for a bit. He shook his ears. He did a wee bit more slow breathing. He looked again at the view and he just, you know, and he just gave himself a wee shake.
00:18:11
Speaker
And when he was ready, he just very slowly walked back. And I watched him just coming back into himself again. But he he so needed that little bit of time in his little man cave just to process and just to calm himself down and everything like that. And I just...
00:18:32
Speaker
I just I love him so much but I just yeah I was so humbled by just how wise he was about right this is me you know and I'm so glad I never just pestered him and photographed me or whatever but yeah that was him so there you go they're not just following each other and whatever they're doing their own thing Yeah. And I mean, each each of us, given the space to do so, will do that, won't we? will We'll respond to things in different ways. We'll find, I mean, that sounded like self-regulation there, like like what you were talking about, Julie, like in in my setting with with children and young people, like with we...
00:19:12
Speaker
place a lot of emphasis on the fact that all different people will do that in different ways. And sometimes people will co-regulate, they'll find other people, but they'll they'll go about things in different ways and and express themselves in different ways too. And that's that's something that's the case with with sheep as well, isn't it? Like literally down to the the tone of their voice and things like that.
00:19:34
Speaker
Oh yeah, they they've got different bars. Now, I've never read anything about this. I've tried to look into this. I can't really find any research on this, but the sheep are teaching me the whole time. I'm a very slow learner. I've got this very limited human brain. They...
00:19:50
Speaker
You know, they are in a human-created, human-centric context, completely controlled by humans. So they are the ones at a disadvantage, and yet I think their communication is much more sophisticated than mine. And they can communicate with me and find... Like, they can understand a lot of words that I use, but I can't understand their language terribly well. But they're very good at certain words and their names and things like that. But what they have managed to teach this stupid human so far is that they do have a couple of different bars. So the first bar that I have identified is a pairing up. So when a sheep is away from its lamb or away from its herd, it will kind of estimate the distance that it thinks that the people is trying to reach are so that it knows how far that sound needs to carry and at risk of sounding an absolute nutcase I'm going to try and do this but it's
00:20:54
Speaker
It's a combination of letters that the African people have, but we don't have in this in this culture. But it's like an M followed by a B. it kind of starts, like that. like that.
00:21:11
Speaker
And that will be kind of pronounced across. And that can carry... like mad and if you listen to a group of ewes and lambs you can match up the lamb and the ewe because they've got their own signature way of doing that sound and you can hear the match you can hear the pairs and you can hear when there's two wee lambs who do it the same as their mum as well I was listening to that the other day when was like walking so that's the kind of pairing up bar it's
00:21:42
Speaker
It can sound a wee bit stressed if people are if the sheep are far from each other. They can sound quite yeah you know ah quite agitated, but they're just trying to cover the ground really. But that's just a pairing up thing. And Rona does it sometimes because Rona doesn't see very well. She gets angry.
00:22:01
Speaker
And because she's got no teeth, she gets lots of extra food and she gets fed on her own away from everyone else pestering her. She gets lots of extra food. So when she's had her extra food, she needs to locate people, that the rest of the three of them. So she'll do a wee mba to just facilitate that.
00:22:19
Speaker
But there's another bar which I very thankfully rarely hear and this is the bar that says I freaking well hate what is happening right now and it is not about covering ground, this is about telling who's right there you can just stop doing this right now because I hate it and It sounds, I thought it was just peculiar to Nuala because I'd only ever heard Nuala do it. And it sounds a bit like when villains laugh in a film. It's it's it's a horrible, ah can't do it very well, but it's a horrible burpy, laughy sound. It's kind of bluff hu her
00:22:56
Speaker
bla ha And it just goes on like that blu ha hit the whole time. It's just repeating, repeating, repeating that horrible, guttural, burpy kind of thing.
00:23:08
Speaker
The first time I trimmed Nuala's hoofs, I did what everybody does. You know, you pick your sheep up, you put on its bottom and lift its hoof up and trim away, you know, and have it disempowered on its backside.
00:23:22
Speaker
I trimmed all Nuala's eight little cleats like that the first time I trimmed her feet and she bleh her head in my ear for the entire time and we were really, both of us, quite fed up by the time we were done.
00:23:37
Speaker
I don't trim anybody's feet like that now, I have them stand up and I just pick their foot up and nobody bleh her heads at me. But the other day I did all my sheep chores.
00:23:48
Speaker
I also strimmed the long grass under the trees. This is before the heat wave came. Because sheep are so clever they will not lie down in long grass because that's a recipe for getting ticks on you. So the lovely shady trees were there. I knew there was a heat wave coming and i thought I better get that grass strimmed.
00:24:06
Speaker
So I strimmed all the grass and then I had a load of buckets and rucksacks and a strimmer to carry back to the house and all this stuff. So I packed up everything, marched away off down to my house for my breakfast thinking, phew, that's been a long morning.
00:24:21
Speaker
And I was just starting to go down the drive on the estate and I heard ah a sheep noise. And I thought, there's Rona doing her locating everybody. And then I thought, Julie, you're kidding yourself. That's not Rona. That's the bleh-heh-heh noise. Something awful is happening to one of the sheep. I wonder what has happened. That's terrible. I wonder what's upsetting Nuala.
00:24:46
Speaker
And you know, as I came into view of the sheep field, Nuala was just happy, just eating the grass. It was Kendrick. He was standing in the middle of the field just telling anybody who would listen, bleh, bleh, bleh. His world was wrong. and Something was awful for him. um So I had all this stuff I was carrying.
00:25:08
Speaker
I never even thought to put it down. I started to run, you know, who with all this stuff. And and then he heard all the you know commotion of me running up and then he he looked at me and he stopped.
00:25:19
Speaker
So I put the stuff down and I walked across the field. He didn't make another sound after that. We had a bit of, you know, physical, a wee bit of a kiss and a cuddle. And then I thought, I want I wonder if that was it because I was busy with a swimmer and everything. I never said goodbye. I never connected with him before I left the field, which I would normally do.
00:25:41
Speaker
And I'm not kind of trying to big myself up, but oh, look, my sheep adore me. Look how dependent I've made them or whatever. But in his mind, there was just something in his routine that was a mess and there was just it didn't feel right. And I could put it right by going back and minding my my manners and actually doing our usual goodbye. So I put things right and there was no more bleh, after that. What lesson in manners that Cheap taught me that day. Yeah. You are their world, Julie. You are their world. Well, i I don't aim to be that. I just aim to be a guardian, somebody sticking up for them, someone keeping them safe, someone making sure that they're comfortable and and have enough to eat and drink and that that they are not allowed to suffer in any way. That's all I mean. I don't want to foster dependence or whatever. But I tell you something, if I hear the blehenoids, I will run.
00:26:42
Speaker
to find out what the heck needs sorting out Well, it's social connection, isn't it? um it but In both directions, I guess, because of the the connection that you've fostered together, like say, in both connect in both directions, you know, if if if one of them didn't connect in the way that they were used to with one of the others, then you would perhaps get a ah similar response in in in terms of, hang on,
00:27:13
Speaker
that's that's not normally how we interact with one another um in the in the same way that two two humans might, like you say, using the analogy of manners. Like it's, that's, there's a social custom, isn't it? It's just a social ritual, a communication ritual. choice Yeah, it's fascinating. It's fascinating. Kate, it's interesting timing our conversation here in that it we're you know we're recording um middle of July an article has come out this week in The Ecologist that has been put forward by Edie Bowles, who's the founder and exec director of the Animal Law Foundation, focusing on
00:27:58
Speaker
the portrayal of farmed animals on TV and why that matters in terms of getting it right. And ah I think it's fair say Edie is saying we're not getting that right in television portrayals at the moment and and the implications of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. and It's misleading people and that really matters. um They may not be telling out and out lies, but, you know, that you know the way they are showing animals and... and um
00:28:34
Speaker
in in the the environments that that they're kind of yeah it's it's ah important because people make up their mind how they want to think about animals and think about animal rights ah based on on what they're presented on tv i mean i remember as a kid watching i hate to say it duly one man and his dog on the telly i mean what Yeah, you watched it, to did
Media Influence on Animal Perception
00:29:06
Speaker
you? Did you watch Yes, yes, I have seen it.
00:29:09
Speaker
Oh, God. Yeah, and it's these poor sheep sort of, you know, being herded around around a field and corralled into a little sort of fenced in square by by the the shepherd and and his dog. and And then I just remember running past a load of sheep being loaded up onto a onto a lorry, obviously heading off to a slaughterhouse.
00:29:37
Speaker
And with these blokes there and and their dogs snarling and barking and these poor sheep trying to get off the trailer. It was just absolutely horrible. It's like there's no resemblance to what's being shown on TV at all. People deserve to know exactly what's going on in animal agriculture. i mean, they refer to um that programme with Hannah Fry. I haven't seen any of these programmes. I don't know if you have. ah The Future... on BBC. And obviously it's um ah covering the future of of um the livestock industry, i'm guessing, which we hope there is no future, of course, because you know, fermented protein and culture protein, and let's just have plant based, yay. But how they says if the programme featured research using artificial intelligence, to assess pigs' emotional states and experiences, yet viewers were subsequently presented with comments questioning whether pigs experience emotions such as happiness or sadness. So, you know, people will listen to that. i remember listening hearing Matt Baker on some programme going on about how stupid sheep were. You know, people may you know they say these things and it's, you know, people go, yeah, yeah, sheep are stupid. But yeah, they're not. we
00:31:09
Speaker
We do need programmes to... we need Sheep TV from Julie. That's what we want. Sheep TV, come on, Julie. I think what we what we need is is things that are informed.
00:31:24
Speaker
And you said at the start of that section there, Kate, that they're not telling out and out lies in terms of deliberately saying things that and are not true.
00:31:35
Speaker
However, they will be deliberately withholding certain things or deliberately portraying things in a certain way. So I think the intention is important and I'd argue that that does make it a lie. But just in terms of the ignorance, I mean, Edie mentions in this article, ah the fact that they're that TV frequently presents farmed animals as unintelligent interchangeable commodities. That's just ignorant.
00:32:00
Speaker
You know, and like, fine, you might you might view animals as commodities. but unintelligent. That's just wrong. That's just incorrect. And just, just, I don't know, it' just having one lens of, of what understanding animals is. When Julie was talking about um different sort of sheepy languages, I did a quick bit of Googling and all I could come up with was human terms of commodifying sheep.
00:32:30
Speaker
you know in in in terms of, oh well, this term means this, this term means this. Nothing was talking about sheep language and the different noises that that sheep would could make. How narrow sighted, how narrow-minded, you know, that there's this a plethora of stuff that we could know, we could find out, we could take joy in, you know, if we were just curious enough. So I think it's is vital to give a platform for for those that have that knowledge, that have that curiosity, that have that open mind,
00:33:03
Speaker
for the sake of the animals and you know, I'm not not blowing smoke here, but that that was really clear when when visiting Julie and when visiting the sheep. Julie, you were really clear about what would be a helpful human behavior and what would be an unhelpful human behavior. And that kind of clear advocacy, clear instructions, if you like, that's that's what's needed, isn't it? yeah Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We obviously only have a certain amount of time that we can make our shows at last, but I'm really keen, Julie, if if there are any sort of final thoughts or messages to share following...
00:33:46
Speaker
let's say the last 12 months of of having a sheep family alongside you, in terms of what that can mean for animal advocacy or animal rights or or how we approach these
Improving Human-Animal Understanding
00:34:00
Speaker
things? Is there anything that's particularly resonant or stand out for you?
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, just a suggestion, I think. You could do this with any animal, but for the sake of this episode, picture this or try this with a sheep.
00:34:16
Speaker
How about taking the time to on your own, not with other humans that you would chit-chat to, but take some time out in the countryside yourself and and sit in an environment where there are sheep where they have freedom to come and go and walk about and things and just sit yourself down in their presence and just sit in absolute peace with sheep that don't know you that you have not met before there's no relationship and come to that experience completely new just don't
00:34:56
Speaker
make a noise or move about just sit down and stay still and quiet and have no expectation no reaching out no grabbing no holding on no thoughts of their so because she's telepathic by the way I will tell you that, that, you know, if you send them a strong enough picture, I know I sound crazy saying this, but I have to be careful and not think about trimming Rona's hoofs as I walk to the pen or she won't go in. So clear your mind of any thoughts of...
00:35:32
Speaker
anything to do with these animals commodities status or anything about that empty your mind and just share the space don't impose your humanness on them in any way just observe their sheepy beauty and grace and the features and just how lovely they are and how sharp their senses are they never stop listening and sniffing and taking in and twitching and responding to their environment they're always gathering information they are incredible beings their body language is intricate their little relationships with each other and their interactions with each other are fascinating
00:36:25
Speaker
See if there's anything your limited human minds can pick up from them and just lose yourself in that observation and the happiness of just the privilege of sharing that space. And in time, they'll probably get a wee bit closer. Just let it happen and let them do their very gentle exploration of you, which they undoubtedly will.
00:36:51
Speaker
And that is a nice experience. It really is. If they want to get close to us, though, it must be on their terms. They are the prey animals and we are the exploiter species. So we just let it happen. And in that feeling of connectedness, in that awe, in that appreciation I think anyway are all the answers we'll ever ever need about living beside these beautiful animals when we share a bit of space when we look in their lovely eyes these questions about is it vegan to do this and that is it okay if we just have a bit of this can we do this to animals is this okay is a bit better if this cage is a bit different you know All of that is just noise. It so goes out the window. The answers are in that space, I think. Just maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.
00:37:51
Speaker
As humans, we get all excited about the possibility of life on other planets, and about meeting aliens and extraterrestrials and these other kind of beings that we don't know anything about. But, you know, we are sharing this planet that we've got already with beautiful beings. And we really know, and we think we do, but we know nothing about them and their ways and their thoughts and their world. We don't know them at all. And yet we persecute them in their billions every year.
00:38:33
Speaker
you know and in their grace and their innocence though they are always some of them just so ready for us to meet them as equals and to let a beautiful coexistence start from there they absolutely they humble us they really do that That feels like a a wonderful meditation that you could that you could apply. Do you know what I mean? that's ah That feels like a practice.
00:39:07
Speaker
um Yeah, no, I'm i'm grateful for that. say, I'm going to be listening back to this every time I need to centre myself after watching some horrible film or other. I could be listening to you again, Julie, talking about your beautiful tree. Come and sit in the field, Kate. Oh, I'd love to. It will give you the answers to everything. I would challenge anybody who thinks that animals are commodities or who think it's okay to treat animals in a certain way. I would really challenge them to sit in that field, to let Kendrick in particular, just come over and look them in the eye.
Closing Remarks and Listener Engagement
00:39:49
Speaker
and and just see what they say about their beliefs and how they feel then when they just witness just that absolute i don't know can't describe it but that the connection that you can feel with a creature just so beautiful and curious and to have your two just totally different worlds that little intersection between you it's so fascinating and it's wonderful Wow. What privilege.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the That nature of of animals is is definitely there, isn't it? We we just, I don't know, the the world that we live in ah very easily condition it out of us to to notice it. So having having ways and means of of um facilitating that to to be seen and and be noticed and internalized again is really valuable. Thank you, Julie, for for all that you've given to the show today. Thank you to Kate for being on the show. Always grand to have you with us. Listeners, lots we've spoken about there. We have spoken about things from a sheep perspective in the main. You may have a different perspective animal-wise that contributes to this particular conversation topic, or there might be something we've said you disagree with or want to know more about.
00:41:12
Speaker
you might as Julie said right at the top of the show have an idea for another vegan talk topic we're always keen to hear these things but you need to know how to find us Julie can you hit everyone with our email address just in case they don't know it Yes, it's enoughofthefalafel, all one word lowercase, at gmail.com. And just a wee reminder that we do read and respond to every email that you send and we feature them, if you give us permission, on our regular mailbag shows. Yeah, absolutely. If you want to help out what we're doing here, you can come on the show. You can give us ideas. If you are able to and you want to, you can also sling some money into the enough of the falafel pot. That's not for us to go and buy vegan takeaways or things like that. It contributes to recording equipment, things like that. So stuff that benefits the whole listening community. Links in the show notes for that one. You can give us lots of money a month. There's also the option to just give us one pound or one dollar a month too. It all helps. And thank you to everyone who is already doing so.
00:42:25
Speaker
Yay. So, yeah, thank you, everybody. and But you can also rate us and leave a review on your podcast player. That would be really, really helpful. um subscribe to the show and that tells your podcast player that we're a great show which i hope you think we are we're all waffling away doing our best here um as well as it gives you alerts uh when the new episodes drop so um and yeah please tell people about the show share it with all your friends all your enemies all your family yeah that would be brilliant too Huge thank you everybody particularly for this episode it's been very sheep centric for listening the next Enough of the Falafel episode will be a bit more normal please don't worry and it's coming out it's a vegan week one by the way and it's coming out on Monday it's featuring Anthony and Carlos and they'll be giving us a round up of the week's vegan and animal rights news stories Anyway, that's enough of the falafel, but not enough of sheep, of course, for this episode. um Thank you so much, Anthony and Julie, for your amazing contributions. And thank you, everyone out there for listening to us. We really, really do appreciate you being there. And you're the reasons why we're doing this. So I've been Kate, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:44:04
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:44:19
Speaker
And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:44:45
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:45:06
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:45:21
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.