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285- Ahimsa Milk: Could we use milk in an ethical way?
120 Plays5 days ago
Ahimsa milk is a type of "slaughter-free" dairy produced using the ancient principle of Ahimsa (meaning "non-violence"). The Ahimsa Dairy Foundation in the UK guarantee that no cows, calves, or bulls are ever killed for meat, sold into the conventional beef industry, or slaughtered when they stop producing milk, when these principles are followed...but what do two vegans think about 'ahimsa milk'? Carlos & Ant examine the practice from a variety of angles.
Mentioned in the discussion are:
https://viva.org.uk/blog/ahimsa-milk/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB946c2Z4BI
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Carlos & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Humor
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody! Now, do no harm or just don't farm ahimsa milk? Is there any such thing? Or is it an oxen moron? Kate needs to apologise for setting me that opening line up. Anyway, I'm Anthony for this episode of Vegan Talk.
00:00:19
Speaker
I'm also joined by Carlos. So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for! Brrr! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere.
00:00:32
Speaker
We're not doing that in the state of Florida. Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are.
00:00:42
Speaker
That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things. What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy, gobbledygook. Any form of social injustice.
00:00:55
Speaker
As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:04
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision.
Vegan Talk Format and Focus
00:01:08
Speaker
Hey hello everyone this is Carlos. Thank you so much for joining us on Vegan Talk for this week. We've got a controversial one today. Indeed we do like a bit of controversy on Vegan Talk. I'm sure there are episodes out there where we just all agree and you know it's it's fine but now we like to have something that uh rises the the tension um so vegan talk if you've never listened to vegan talk before we we have vegan week which is our weekly news show we cover like the last seven days or so of vegan and animal rights news we've been doing that for the best part of three years now we're pretty decent at it i reckon We also have these vegan talk shows where we'll take something that maybe is not so time sensitive as the news. So it could be a a perennial issue that vegans face or that is an animal rights issue.
00:01:56
Speaker
And we go into it in a bit more detail. All the previous episodes are wherever you get your podcasts from. They've got a yellow background like all our podcasts, but the vegan talk ones are have a black bit of text on there rather than the pink of
What is Ahimsa Dairy and is it Vegan?
00:02:11
Speaker
our news show. So Carlos, what are talking about today?
00:02:15
Speaker
So we're talking about Ahimsa Dairy, where no cow, bull or calf is ever killed for cheese or milk. Some people would say that makes makes it okay for vegans. And we're here on this episode to figure that out ourselves.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, so we've we've put some links in the show notes for you if you've never come across Ahimsa before. Carlos and I have have had a look at these too, so we've got some shared reference points from you. But both Carlos and myself, we were chatting before we started recording, we have encountered Ahimsa. Ahimsa products, I suppose, outside of these these three links. and So we've got a Viva blog about Ahimsa milk. So that's obviously coming from an animal rights perspective, Viva being you know a very prolific animal rights organisation.
00:03:09
Speaker
We've also put a link to ahimsamilk.org, who are a farm, who farm the cows in a ahimsa-approved way.
00:03:21
Speaker
And there is a YouTube video by Gauraksha. The video is called Shocking Facts About Ahimsa Milk. About 15 minutes long, and that is part of their Voice of Vegans channel.
Practices of Ahimsa Dairy
00:03:35
Speaker
So, if you're not sure what ahimsa is, like Carlos said, a real straightforward line is that the cows, that the animals, are not killed, whereas in conventional industrial animal ag, even if you're just, quote, just taking the milk, generally speaking,
00:03:57
Speaker
The male cows, the male animals are killed a young age because they're not producing the milk. And there are other practices that tend to be part of the ahimsa, it's quite hard to say because it starts with that ah noise, the ahimsa mindset, I suppose.
00:04:17
Speaker
So lifetime sanctuary would be one of the concepts. So cows are safely retired to live out their natural lives. often up to 20 years or more, once they stop producing milk. That is different to conventional animal ag where even a milking cow will live four, five years before it's spent and then killed and ground up or or used for steak or what have you. There's generally a no-calf culling policy in Ahimsa milk. So the male calves are kept alive regularly
00:04:52
Speaker
They are often used on the farm, non-violent draft works like oxen would traditionally, you know, pulling plows, that sort of thing.
Benefits and Alternatives of Ahimsa Milk
00:05:03
Speaker
There's also a policy generally of extended suckling, so calves remaining with their mothers to nurse freely for at least the first six months of life instead of being separated immediately at birth.
00:05:18
Speaker
as per industrial animal ag, there's often natural breeding as well. So instead of being artificially inseminated, you know, the vegan stereotype of a, you know, a cow, a dairy farmer sticking, sticking their fist up the the cows, what not with a ah syringe with with bull semen, it tends to be done more naturally in Ahimsa farms. and the milking too.
00:05:47
Speaker
Farms will often use organic pastures, prioritise milking the cows by hand rather than using industrial machinery. Carlos, we've spoken off air about our opinions of this. So my first question is guided by that.
00:06:05
Speaker
Is there anything that we can salvage from Ahimsa milk? Is there anything as died in the, I was going to say died in the wool, vegan activists, that's that's not a good expression. But like, is there anything that we can say that, well, at least it's doing this. Like there is an incremental improvement of outcomes for animals from ahimsa practices, ahimsa milk?
Regulation and Oversight Issues
00:06:32
Speaker
Well, I mean, I would say in terms of if for any reason, which doesn't actually exist and we never will, if for any reason we needed to produce dairy, this would be, i guess, the the least cruel and exploitative way of producing dairy. If we ever needed to absolutely produce dairy, which we don't because the plant-based alternatives are as nutritious or more and absolutely delicious each in their own way. Oat milk, the current oat milk pretty much tastes exactly like dairy milk.
00:07:03
Speaker
Not that I've done the taste test, by the way, just relying on people who still drink milk to do the taste test for me. um And, you know, you've got an almond and soy and and coconut and so on, all with their different tastes and and kind of qualities. So there's no reason to to use dairy whatsoever. But if for any reason we have a need to produce milk, this would be the least exploitative and violent way to produce it. But there are lots of criticisms of Rhimsa Milk. Maybe we can go through a few of those. And just in case people are kind of having doubts, thinking, oh, I'm vegan, but perhaps I could have Rhimsa Milk.
00:07:39
Speaker
Since it's really okay. I think something that I would point out as as well, i know that we come from a similar perspective here in terms of our our opinion on it. But if I can just zoom in on one of the phrases you said, like that this would be the way to do it. This could be the way to do it if we had to produce dairy, which we don't. But actually, like all farming practices, it's still open to people not doing it properly. So you might say, oh, would we do it gently? Oh, well, we let nature take its course. Oh, well, we keep them. Well, you could still employ a wrong one who doesn't do it that way. so And do you know what?
00:08:21
Speaker
If you're farming beetroot and you've got a really aggressive, farmer who's a great who's farming the beetroot or what have you, there's a limit to the damage that can be done. Fine, they might be a horrible person to their colleagues, they might skimp on, I don't know, hygiene or or things like that, but there's a limit to what harm can be done to the beetroot and the suffering that can be caused by a wrong one in the farming system. Whereas even if you've got these ahimsa
00:08:53
Speaker
Sorry to take such a dark view of humanity here, but even if you've got all the ahimsa principles in place, that's not to say everyone's going to follow them the whole time, is it? Yeah, and and I don't even know. Honestly, I tried to research this and let's say for factory farming, there are you know there are animal welfare standards in most countries.
00:09:13
Speaker
For most animals, there are farmed. and the kind of intensive farming, intensive factory farming. I could not find, i mean, of course there are principles for RIMSA milk on the many RIMSA milk farms that exist around the world, but I could not find a single um kind of authentication body, let's call it, that does regular inspections or that produces a stamp of, yes, this is certified RIMSA milk. We came in at a random time. and you know, just check that all the cows were okay, that the cows were not being killed, that there was, for example, like a one-to-one ratio between males and females, which would indicate no slaughter of the males. You know, there's there's no regulating body for this. So it's all well and good to say, yes, this is a Hamza milk farm. Here, pay 50 pounds for a bottle of milk.
00:10:04
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it's you know, it's it's if anything, it's less regulated than factory farming. Oh, absolutely. And part of that is is because of its scale. you know make Make no mistake, that is part of it. But yeah, if you really, really cared about these things, you could just get a an impartial observer, invigilator, or what have you. You you could do that, couldn't you? I mean, you know even small companies will will do it. They'll employ a mystery shopper and say, do you know what? We think we're doing a good job, but we're going to pay someone to come in at random and
00:10:39
Speaker
once a month to be a customer in our shop to see if we really are doing a good job. You know, that there'd be ways to
Ethical Critiques of Ahimsa Milk
00:10:46
Speaker
do it. even if Yeah. And I think, I think our, when you were describing Achimsa Milk in the beginning, our, our very sharp listeners, which we know we have, they will have spotted the problem here. Like, you know, you talk about, you know, we keep the, we keep the males and then we give them these kinds traditional oxen work to do.
00:11:04
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, so we have 20 milking cows and we we have 20 bulls pulling plows all day?
00:11:15
Speaker
Really? yeah we well and and Yeah, I mean, let's let's get into the the fundamental animal rights reasons why. I would believe, and I think you're the same Carlos, that this is this is not a practice that is in animals' best interest. This is not animal rights friendly. This is not a vegan practice.
00:11:40
Speaker
what's What's the standout one for you? The fact there's still reproductive control of the animals. So essentially humans are saying it's these cows need to be constantly impregnated at all times to keep producing milk. And the fact that it's done in a natural way, you know, if you can imagine kind of separating males from females and not really only allowing them to be together when they're breeding to be natural, and that is you know, from this little reproductive control,
00:12:07
Speaker
And they are specific about that. I mean, if you go into the Ahimsa milk website and the about section very near the top, they say, we have one bull in a field whom we allow a cow to spend a few days with. If we decide she is ready to be impregnated clear as you like, they're not dressing it up.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yes. And, um, um You know, this, this you know, Ahimsa milk kind of presents itself also as ethical choice and a sustainable model for production of dairy.
00:12:41
Speaker
But, you know, let's be honest, this is a small scale, high cost, labor intensive operation and would never meet any kind of mainstream milk demand. if If all the factory of factory dairy farms closed and all the hems and milk remain, milk would be a luxury product, essentially. Well, even if you had the same number of farms, ah what have you, it's part of the reason that industrial animal ag is the way it is, is because it's trying to keep up with demand. It is being driven by demand. That's that's why we are trying to convince people to be vegans rather than just going in and
00:13:20
Speaker
burning all the farms down you yeah you know if if we burnt them all down they'd be rebuilt but but because there's the demand for it and and this can't meet the demand or if the demand was there you can bet your life they'd start cutting corners and saying well maybe you know maybe it's not so bad if we do mechanize things a little bit maybe it's not so bad if we do dot dot dot Maybe not so bad that the the the males after the six months weaning get sold to another farm, which which
Cost and Ethical Implications
00:13:57
Speaker
kills them.
00:13:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not us killing them. It's another farm killing them. I mean, we do see that in other cultures. and And please, listeners, don't misunderstand. There is all manner of horrible things that happen in cultures that I identify with. I'm definitely not saying other cultures are any worse. I remember...
00:14:16
Speaker
ah finding it really interesting to read that it was in the a book written by the Dalai Lama talking about Tibet and talking about a lot of Tibetan Buddhists who refrained from killing. However, if there were Muslims in the community where they lived, then they were fine for the Muslims to be the butchers in the community and they'd buy the meat off the Muslims.
00:14:40
Speaker
um it's It's like, it like yeah you know you know what's happening there. You know you're causing that person to kill the animal. It's it's remarkable. The mental gymnastics will do.
00:14:51
Speaker
It's one of the reasons India is a Hindu majority country where the killing of cows and bulls is forbidden, yet it's a massive exporter of beef. Well, how does that work? How does that work? They can't kill them themselves, the Hindus, so they pass it to the Muslim community or the Christian community or the atheist community in India, and they do the killing. So once the demand is high enough, we know that the morals can be corrupted if there are animals present.
00:15:22
Speaker
Whereas you know if you're producing plant-based milk, Well, there's there's not a lot of ethic. I mean, even if the ethics go wrong, there's not much that can go disastrously wrong.
00:15:33
Speaker
with scal with scaling plant-based milk, let's be honest. So i would say RIMSA milk, I mean, in my opinion, it's basically humane washing. The production of dairy is for consumers who know it's wrong to consume dairy, but for some reason cannot give it up.
00:15:48
Speaker
And they just want to feel morally clean about their choices. So they're happy to pay a premium and then just think of happy cows in fields and sons living with their mothers and No farmers sticking their arms in a cow and, you know, industrial production of milk and the dust industrial kind of milking and so on and so forth. So it's basically humane washing a practice which, in my opinion, is obsolete.
00:16:20
Speaker
Yeah, i was I first came across Ahimsa Milk for sale. In fact, I think it's the only time I've ever seen it for sale. um I guess I've seen it referred to online in in conversations or or things like that. But I saw it in person in a cafe that was otherwise completely vegan. And this was in about 2015. So, you know, a vegan cafe was a relatively rare thing. to see everything was vegan, but they did have this milk. And I think you had to pay a surcharge to opt for it, because I guess it's it's not cheap.
00:16:58
Speaker
And I think what you just said there, Carlos, in terms of like folk who know that it's it's unethical, but they're trying their best to to do it as... as Yeah, ethically or least unethically as possible.
00:17:15
Speaker
ah I mean, I'd be really interested to hear from anyone that knows of other motivations for it deep down, really. and But that's what struck me in that cafe. It was just like...
00:17:27
Speaker
it It feels to me like you think that a vegan cafe that only serves plant milk is too much too soon for the neighborhood that this cafe is in. And you feel that milk does need to be offered in some way. And you're trying to do this in the the best form. I mean, I've, as many listeners may know, i used to...
00:17:49
Speaker
run a vegan cafe, like i I found one with my wife at the time, and we did that in 2018 in a city that felt like it was ready for it.
00:18:01
Speaker
Had we tried to do so 10 years earlier, would it have been able to sustain itself completely with everything being vegan? I've often wondered whether it would and what compromises I might have made in order to still put an animal rights message out there and and i don't know i don't know and and and i don't need to know the answer because i wasn't in that situation but i it strikes me too that that's that's kind of where the sentiment comes from but it's still based isn't it on that objectification of animals it's as simple as that
00:18:40
Speaker
yeah It's as simple as that. And the the future of dairy products is a plant-based future, progressively plant-based future. There might be an argument for later on using the same principles we're using for cultivated meat to produce dairy from essentially producing milk from milk, you know just allowing the pro the the cells to reproduce without the intervention of an animal.
00:19:04
Speaker
where it's essentially milk just just kind of reproduced artificially. People might have different feelings about that, but that could be a ah solution as well. But plant-based milk has been a ah success at all levels.
00:19:17
Speaker
It's growing, perhaps not as fast as it was growing before, but still growing. And you know it's it's much better than trying to engineer this morally improved dairy niche,
00:19:29
Speaker
which essentially is a niche because it will never produce enough to to supply what the what the majority of the world needs or wants. ah So it's somewhat well-intentioned, I would say. i mean, let's give people the benefit of of the doubt. They probably think they're doing a good thing. But ultimately, it's a very kind of conservative reform that that is trying to kind of humanize the wrong product rather than just replacing that wrong product with a much more humane technology that essentially already exists.
00:19:58
Speaker
And, you know, just to give our listeners an idea, like on the Ahimsa milk.org website, they're selling like a kilo of cheddar cheese for 123 pounds.
00:20:09
Speaker
And I can tell you in the uk you can get a block of one kilo block of cheese for less than 20 pounds. You know, so so essentially you're paying like a hundred pounds, a hundred pounds to feel good about something. Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
And they say plant-based products are expensive, Carlos. Yeah. I mean, you could you could you could buy a lot of lot of plant-based cheese for £123. Wow.
00:20:36
Speaker
Wow. You could buy some serious shares in plant-based food tech for... and and buy the most decadent vegan cheese and have spare change for some crackers. Goodness me.
00:20:49
Speaker
I'm trying to think of it as a situation where i I would have the most sympathy for somebody who is consuming or or promoting Ahimsa and...
Ahimsa Practices and Animal Sanctuaries
00:21:00
Speaker
I'm coming up with somebody who who really feels a love for cows. I mean, you know, we have regularly on the show, we have Julie who has rescued four sheep and I've i've met those sheep. And the the love that Julie has for those animals amazing.
00:21:18
Speaker
incredible, you know, and I could imagine somebody feeling that way about cows and saying, look, I want to keep these cows alive. I want to care for them. They have rights.
00:21:32
Speaker
And yes, I could just, it could just be a sanctuary here. I could just, you know, let them live out their lives, but that's costly. And I can't afford to do that, these cows, left to their own devices with a bull every now and then, will naturally produce a product that I can commodify that pays for their care.
00:21:56
Speaker
Is there an argument for that? ah No, because no sanctuary will willingly reproduce the animals it has. regardless of reason. that's you but thank you i about but but But okay, so so let's not take the word sanary sanctuary with a capital S. This is just an individual saying, I will give these animals sanctuary, I will give them safety, but I i need i need something to help finance that.
00:22:26
Speaker
um and that that there's a product that that they produce given the opportunity to live their lives, you know, as they do. and And people in our culture do consume that product. So that's my way of financing their care. I know um a sanctuary on the outskirts of London in Brentwood that does exploit its animals in the sense that You're allowed to visit.
00:22:55
Speaker
You pay a ticket. You visit the animals. You know, they're in their pens. They're they're living their sanctuary lives, essentially. They're not like performing for humans. They're just there. And you can see them and some come to the fence and you can pet them and so on and so forth. And that's already kind of exploiting the animals without producing more animals, without extracting anything from those animals to sell.
00:23:19
Speaker
So like from a strict strictly vegan perspective, it's not correct because you're kind of exploring the animals in that they're attractions. But there's like no harm done to the animals, no reproductive control, no removal of anything from the animals to sell to make profit.
00:23:37
Speaker
um In other words, I'm against it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm against reproducing, you know, having animals naturally breed so you can, because I think that just leads you to having a farm, not a sanctuary. Yeah.
00:23:49
Speaker
yeah You just have a farm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as I was saying it, I was, I was hearing what I was saying and thinking, but like the, the amount that you're charging for this product, like you can't really use the argument that, that, well, everyone drinks this because not everyone does drink milk that costs 10 pounds a litre or whatever the going rate would, would
Human Scenario Comparisons
00:24:12
Speaker
be for that. And I think a lot of animal rights can boil down to replace the animal and and put a human in that perspective. And and how does it sound and how does it feel then? And of course, animals and non-human animals, sorry, human animals and non-human animals are not the same. We experience the world in different ways to cows and beetles and squirrels. I'm not equating us.
00:24:39
Speaker
We have a lot of overlap and that's often... you know, overlooked by a lot of people, but we do experience the world differently. So and I know it's not ah ah strict, strictly perfect thing to do.
00:24:51
Speaker
But if you were saying, well, I've got these humans, I've got this group of humans, I i let them reproduce with one another, i never kill any of them, I i take their milk,
00:25:06
Speaker
and so You'd be like, sorry, what? but I was fine until you take their milk. Oh, I mean i can give you another example. We have these humans, we let them reproduce with each other. And then we take their babies after their wean and we sell them to families to keep us pets.
00:25:23
Speaker
Is that okay? Or the, oh, don't worry, we keep the males alive and we put them to work. It's like, this is this is a Victorian workhouse. what What's going on?
00:25:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's strange, isn't it? Although there's something I like about the existence of Himsemilk is that it points to the reality of a world after factory farming, where you say, well, if you went factory farming,
00:25:49
Speaker
Would there still be milk? Yes. And would and a block of cheddar cheese would cost £120. Yeah, that's true. that's true And a steak would cost you know an astronomical amount of money. Yeah, yeah. And yes, there would still be cow's milk and it would be drunk by baby cows. Yeah. it's As simple as that. Yeah, no, but it's, it's, um, yeah, obviously obviously we don't wish commodification, objectification. of exploitation of animals. Of course,
The Future of Ethical Consumption
00:26:22
Speaker
we don't wish that. And I know that's not what you were saying, Carlos. And yeah, it does serve to be a a practical example for folk who say, well, what if, what if though, Mr. Vegan, Mrs. Vegan, what if,
00:26:36
Speaker
you know, you could guarantee that animals, blah, blah, blah, didn't suffer, and what have you. I've definitely had that question asked of me a lot. I think by carnists who want to hear, well, my my philosophy as a carnist is is not it's not inherently wrong. It's just that everyone's doing it badly. So, ah you know, I've not got a wrong idea. And they and they try and say, but what if people could do it right? And and this, like you say, Colise, this is an example. You say, well,
00:27:03
Speaker
Let me give you the closest you can get to people doing dairy, right? Here's how it how much it costs. And you still have the problem of objectification, commodification, exploitation, and it's just bloody weird.
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah, plus a supply of useless males that nobody knows what to do with them. And they live very long. They live 20 years. Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker
and you have nothing for them. But it's interesting because if somebody says, no, that's that's great. I think I'm fine with that. I am okay to pay 120 pounds for a block of cheddar.
00:27:40
Speaker
And then you can say, well, if you are, then you can help me and factory farming. yeah Yeah. Let's do that. And then we'll worry about the. Yeah. so Oh, so sorry. It's not a hundred pounds a block. It's 200. It's 200. Give me the money. i'll I'll go and get it. And you keep it keep the change and invest it wisely. don't Donate it to the right sources. Yeah, for sure.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:28:02
Speaker
Well, I mean, listeners, you might be, you've you've listened to, let's face it, a one-sided discussion here. we've We've talked hypothetically about alternative perspectives, but Carlos and myself have given a pretty similar perspective there. You might have a different perspective, or you might agree with this, and there's something we've
00:28:22
Speaker
overlooked and and neglected. Either way, we really love hearing people's perspectives. Enoughoftheflaffle at gmail.com is our email address. Our Facebook and Instagram accounts are also active too. So you can send us a direct message on there.
00:28:38
Speaker
We really love hearing from you. That is the start and the end of it. Carlos, thank you for being on the show. It's great to have you with us. We know you're a busy person and it's been a while since we've had you on. So thank you for your time.
00:28:52
Speaker
When can people tune in? Well, thank you very much for having me, Anthony. I've been working hard for the animals outside of this podcast. So the next episode is um coming out from next Monday and it it will be our usual roundup of the latest animal rights and vegan news. Indeed. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Big up, Carlos, again. Big up all of you for listening. We would not do this without you This is not an echo chamber. There's quite a few of you that listen. i don't know if you know, but there's loads of you. Hooray! I've been Anthony, you've been listening to Vegan Talk, and we are the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:29:36
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:29:51
Speaker
And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry.
Promotion of Archive Episodes
00:29:57
Speaker
Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:30:17
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:30:38
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:30:53
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.