Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
293- Are autistic folk more likely to be vegan?
126 Plays14 days ago
Well, we don't have the hugest sample size, but seeing as we have two autistic vegans on the pod, let's see what they think! Dominic & David might not have the platform that Chris Packham and Greta Thunberg have, but they certainly know a thing or two about their own autistic minds and whether that makes a vegan philosophy more- or less- likely to emerge.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
*************
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
*******************
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic & David
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction: Critique on Veganism and Lab-Grown Meat
00:00:03
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brody. Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:15
Speaker
Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:27
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold. Any form of social injustice.
00:00:37
Speaker
As long as you donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:46
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser
Podcast Introduction: 'Enough of the Falafel'
00:00:49
Speaker
vision. and Hello, hello, hello, everybody. Welcome back to Enough of the Falafel. Are you more likely to be vegan if you're autistic?
00:01:00
Speaker
What about other so-called neurodivergences or the neuro spicy, as I like to say, as a neuro spicy person myself, I am
Meet Dominic and David: Autistic Gay Vegans
00:01:11
Speaker
Dominic. And for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm joined by fellow neuro-spicy, fantastic human being, David. David is my wonderful boyfriend. We are two autistic gay vegans. How niche can you get?
00:01:28
Speaker
How niche can you get? I know. Yes, yes. Aren't you lucky you're in for a treat tonight? Yes. Hello everyone. My name's David and welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk and thank you for being here. Yes, yes, yes. I am really happy to be with David on this episode of Vegan Talk.
Vegan News and Discussions
00:01:47
Speaker
We have two different kinds of episodes of Enough of the Falafel. There's the vegan news show, in which we talk about stuff that is relevant for a particular week. But in vegan talk, we are often discussing something that has universal relevance. And that's certainly the case this time. All the previous episodes are still in the podcast feed. And we really encourage you to check out our vegan talk because we're proper proud of them. They're really, really good.
00:02:21
Speaker
But this episode is about...
Link Between Autism and Veganism
00:02:24
Speaker
autism, Greta Thunberg, Chris Packen, and online content creators like Meg from the channel I'm Autistic Now What, and Mike, who is from Autistic AF, they're all autistic and they're all vegan. And that has got our show's producers, Anthony and Shane, thinking, are there traits in autism or other neurodivergences that might lead the vegan movement to be represented by a greater proportion of such traits. So David and i are going to discuss just that. What are your opening thoughts on this matter? So um yeah, one thing I'd like to make clear from the start is that there's no one single neurodivergent experience
00:03:12
Speaker
every autistic person is different just as every vegan is different. I'll pause you there. I'll pause you there. That's something that we've discussed on previous shows before. Is every vegan different? Because, ah so ah yeah, there's a ah some people who... yeah The answer is yes, you're correct. Every vegan is different. You are absolutely correct. I guess the reason I bring it up as a point is that um some people have interpreted veganism as a...
00:03:40
Speaker
ah in an incorrect way, like, you know, I'm a vegan who eats cheese, so what? You know, that kind of thing. ah And ah similarly, I guess there's a lot of discussions over what is neurodiversity, because I am definitely somebody who argues that self-diagnosis is valid. We've got a huge huge problem globally with restricted access to healthcare professionals. And I'm really lucky that I did get an autism assessment. I also got an ADHD assessment from a healthcare professional.
00:04:16
Speaker
But I know some people who haven't been able to access that. And in the short time, I was diagnosed like two, three years ago. And the waiting lists are ridiculous. People are not having their official diagnosis and therefore not feeling worthy of support, not feeling like they can make a fuss. And yeah, so I would say if you're listening to this show and you think, am I a bit that way? Then, you know, maybe you are. Maybe you are. It's a really hard one when there is such a discrepancy with access to healthcare professionals. And we've got politicians who are saying that it's all overdiagnosed. And that's not my view at all.
Empathy and Vegan Ethics in Autism
00:05:05
Speaker
But bringing it firmly to autism and veganism, I certainly in my own life do know a lot of people who are autistic and I do know a lot of people who who are vegan and that there can be an overlap. What do you think, David?
00:05:21
Speaker
ah yeah Many autistic individuals report experiencing deep, sometimes intense empathy empathy towards animals. This strong sense of justice and commitment to moral rules makes the ethical philosophy of veganism particularly appealing. For some, adhering to a vegan lifestyle i alone aligns perfectly with their need for structured logical systems and strong personal values.
00:05:46
Speaker
I think I tend to agree with that. I think for myself, I i certainly have an acute sense of order and um it can be very black and white or but have binary thinking. So I think aligning myself with a vegan lifestyle, or it certainly was vegetarian to start with and then became vegan.
00:06:07
Speaker
um I found i did ah it aligned must it aligned my values with caring very much for animals. um And I think, yeah, I said i i do think that my autism has made it more likely for me to be
Binary Thinking in Vegan and Personal Life
00:06:25
Speaker
vegan.
00:06:25
Speaker
or maybe it's the other way around i don't really know yeah maybe i myself like david said right at the beginning there's no one autistic experience but my autistic experience feels very similar to david's that when people have gone oh isn't it a sacrifice don't you miss fried eggs don't you miss bacon it's really binary it's like i don't do that now in a similar way I've sought monogamous relationships. I'm not someone who wants an relationship or a throuple. And when people are aren't you interested? I'm just, no.
00:07:01
Speaker
I like the idea of like, you know, we've got so many like soap operas about people that having an affair, having double lives. It's like, but this is what I do. this is what I do. You know, I'm a monogamous person. I am a vegan.
00:07:14
Speaker
I do this. I play these video games. I go, it's it's really, really ah ah not a sacrifice for me. But in understanding neurotypical struggles with giving up stuff and feeling tempted by, know, swaying from the vegan path, like they might start off with a really strong, desire to be vegan for for moral, ethical, intelligent reasons, but then um have peer pressure. I think, David, I think you and I also had similar experiences of of school as well, that as ah neurodiverse people.
David's Journey from Vegetarian to Vegan
00:07:53
Speaker
It's fair to say that we um
00:07:55
Speaker
we were never the most popular at school, were we? So peer pressure, we were just used to being like, well, whatever we do, you're not going to accept me. So I don't think we necessarily have the same, you know, we just don't expect to fit in, do we?
00:08:07
Speaker
No, no, exactly. I think, yeah, for me, when I was at school, I think I was i was so used to being the odd one out, the person that was bullied for being different. um Yes, I identify as a gay man and people made assumptions that I was gay at school because I was effeminate or for whatever reason, even though i wasn't out or anything like that. So I was used to being the odd one out. um And yeah, I think when I made choices, I joined um a an anti-vivisection organisation.
00:08:42
Speaker
just because I wanted to find somewhere to belong to start with. But that did lead me to making a choice to become vegetarian when I was 14. And yeah, as Dominic said, you know, when we were so used to being the odd one out, I didn't really feel that that was wrong or that there was anything odd with doing that because it it aligned with everything that that felt right with me. So therefore, having some like degree of like control over my my food um that being vegetarian i felt like i was doing something right to support my love of animals there wasn't the internet when i was 14 so i couldn't research
00:09:24
Speaker
like anything to do with like like leather there certainly wasn't the things to do with leather like shoes they weren't um in the or certainly um non-leather shoes were not as widely available as they are now so it was a lot harder to do that but it did mean with the the black and white thinking of of my autism um that i actually went without things because i was just like yeah this is me this is what i'm choosing to do and i i just felt that it was right for me and whatever anybody else said it just there was no gray area for me it was just i'm at the time i'm vegetarian now
00:10:06
Speaker
And therefore, that's it. When I went vegan, um which was many years later for many different reasons of why I didn't go vegan. But when I went vegan again, while I thought I couldn't do it, but i did I found being autistic my superpower. I found it very easy to become vegan because of black and white thinking. It was like one day I was vegetarian, the next day I was vegan, and that's the way I was going to live. And I have done ever since. and I haven't looked back and I think my autism, my particular variety, as Dominic might say, is very much that is my superpower for deciding I'm going to stay vegan. And I find it really easy to do so.
00:10:52
Speaker
So therefore, I think my autism does make it easier for me. Yeah. Yeah, I really agree with that. Again, I can be very black and white thinking. I think that's something that you and I share in common. Again, we repeat, we're not saying this is the universal autistic autistic experience.
00:11:08
Speaker
I would argue that although there is no universal autistic experience, it's a common misconception that autistic people are unfeeling, that they lack empathy, because sometimes autistic people have facial expressions that don't match the facial expressions of neurotypicals. like that yeah People can come across as not caring. I can come across as not caring when actually sometimes I care so much I feel really overwhelmed and I kind of start shutting down a little bit because I find it hard to process so much empathy. So on the outside, it just comes across like I don't give a monkey's that I'm just really like, you know, not engaging. But yeah, I think that um I do think that you were mentioning like finding a sense of belonging, David, when you joined the anti-vivisection group. And I think they often go hand in hand, the idea that
00:12:03
Speaker
we have been often excluded, cruelly treated. We have direct experience as autistic people. Because kids can be cruel. Kids often, you know, unless they're really... um you know, given good access to education, they shun what's different. They say they they they laugh, they pick on things that, you know, it's it's a source of comedy. Oh, this is not what expect it to be. This is funny. And they're they're not they're laughing at, not laughing with, they're laughing at what's different. So when we've been on the receiving end of cruelty, we see other lives receiving cruelty. And there's that big, strong connection there, a shared... ah desire, you know, I don't want any other life to experience pain, because I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of pain. And it's awful.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree with you. I think, you know, i do think that, yes, I don't want any other life to, to experience what I've been through and to feel what I've felt to be excluded in that way, to be seen as different as Dominic said, you know, as you say, with the facial expressions and people, you know, communication and body language, just because we have autism, people think, you know, well, you're acting in this way, that means you're going to be like this, that and the other. But um
00:13:29
Speaker
I think I want to add something with with empathy because yes, you're right that autism, that people with autism are often assumed to lack empathy and to, i think one of the diagnostic or my understanding, obviously I'm not a doctor here or anybody, but one of the diagnostic things are One of the things they look at with people with autism, especially if you're diagnosed as a young person under 18, then they tend to look at your ability to love and to have empathy. And if you lack that, that's how they make that diagnosis. That's one one way, I believe. But I think having autism, I think I, like you, experience more empathy than most. I certainly have a lot of feelings for other people. I care a lot about other people. I feel for people I've never met. um And I certainly have a lot of empathy towards animals. And I think one of the reasons for me with my empathy towards animals is they can't
00:14:34
Speaker
exclude me and they don't exclude me in the way other humans have. So why would I want to eat them? Why would I want to treat them badly? My, you know, I have four cats, we have four cats and they don't exclude us. They show love, but other humans exclude us because they see autism. They see up the autism first. They don't see the fact that the we're human, that we have feelings too, and that we want to belong.
00:15:02
Speaker
um And when we don't find that sense of belonging, we look elsewhere. Like I said, when I was 14, looking for the anti-bivisection organization, I wanted somewhere to belong. And it was somewhere that didn't judge me, somewhere that didn't exclude me. All they wanted was me to say, i don't want to hurt animals, which was very easy for me to do. That is a black and white yes or no. There wasn't a gray area. I loved animals. I had a great sense of empathy towards animals at that age. And that's only grown. I want to share that with the world. and I wouldn't want to harm an animal. I look in another animal's eyes and I do see another animal.
00:15:43
Speaker
living being that has the exact same right to life yeah that you and i do and they see that in us i think that you've uh touched on a really important thing that is an argument for neurodivergences and the vegan movement being uh often interconnected that animals see that in us they they they see kindness they see someone who you know animals know if someone's going to cause them harm and they know if someone is kind. I remember seeing a little one drawing comic strip panel joke about someone a party and you know, you can see
Empathy and Connection with Animals
00:16:20
Speaker
in the background all the people together and then one woman kneeling down with the cat being like, I found my place. And it was one of those cartoons where i was like, that is me. This has been written for me. This is ah like way before my diagnosis because yeah, like the joy that
00:16:37
Speaker
David and I get from spending time with animals is is huge, is huge. You know, I have visited sanctuaries for animals who are not farms, you know, seen cows and bulls.
00:16:58
Speaker
Oh, up close, you know, like the the the connection offered. Yeah, I think that that is a really, really, really wonderful thing. Moving away from the topic of ah ethics, that there are indeed other arguments, aren't there, for why ah autism and veganism might be overlapping things.
Deep Research and Special Interests in Veganism
00:17:20
Speaker
Yes, certainly. um Autistic traits often also involve pursuing special interests with high focus. um This can manifest as an intense drive to research nutrition, environmental sustainability, or animal welfare, as we've discussed with wanting to join the anti-vivisection but yeah as a result some autistic individuals become highly knowledgeable about plant-based living and successfully plan well-rounded specialized vegan diets I certainly think my choices with being vegetarian um I mean you've seen when we first started dating you've seen what I have in my kitchen the little jars of
00:18:03
Speaker
different grains of research, I spent hours and hours researching where to get all my nutrition from bearing in mind that when I went vegan, have access to the internet when I was vegetarian, I didn't. So this is very different. But um yeah so i spent a lot of time researching things and um looking into how i could live um or how i could live by being vegan and to get all of the nutrition that um i would need so i certainly would say i mean you know this is an argument for um you know um yeah right i think that it certainly is uh is right for me i think
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, David and I are autistic folks who definitely have that special interest quirk of autism. So we obsess over superheroes, we obsess over video games and regular listeners to this show will have known in the past I spoke loads. so more than one shot i went on about this one video game i've not mentioned it for months a game called gibbon yeah and i was just yeah that that's a special interest and it is a very i don't know if the makers are vegan i still don't know that but i know that it talks about palm oil it talks about deforestation it talks about the uh cruelty the
00:19:30
Speaker
the tourism industry does to Gibbons. It's a video game that's really interactive and gives information and gives resources to which you can donate money, which I have because I was so passionately moved by this game. And David and I, we well, as it happens, we've been ah swinging around the trees today, haven't we, playing Gibbon? And Yeah, David and I, when we we meet up, we often will revisit the same video games. It's like, oh, we've not done Gibbon today. It's like other people would be like, oh, yeah, there are other video games out there, but it's become a special interest. How David described his kitchen, I'm really, really similar.
00:20:11
Speaker
And And diet has been a special interest. It's so common for vegans, sorry, it's so common for autistic folks to really, really pursue every nook and cranny of information and stockpile facts.
00:20:26
Speaker
And yet, vegans are so often accused of, oh, have you really thought about if you're getting your B12? And yet, Meat eaters who might go to McDonald's for many of their meals just assume because it's this superfood meat that every possible nutritional requirement is being met. And it's like, well, you're asking me if I've thought about my B12. The answer is yes.
00:20:54
Speaker
Have you? Have you? or are you just presuming that vegan is inherently bad and meat eating is inherently good? Of course, it's possible with any choice of what you do and don't eat to eat well or badly with a particular ethical stance. But surely, surely there are enough foods fit vegans by now. There are enough like sports star vegans. There are enough old vegans to prove that, yeah, we, you know, we are capable of making good nutritional choices. And I think the autistic, uh,
00:21:32
Speaker
commonality of desiring a special interest and nerding out over it is ah is really, really, yeah really helpful.
Executive Dysfunction and Vegan Meal Planning
00:21:41
Speaker
That said, there's ah another kind of autistic trait which might ah overlap with a ah ah with veganism. ah You know, some ah vegans ah have, ah sorry,
00:21:56
Speaker
keep saying it shows how interchangeable it is. I keep saying vegans when I mean autistic folks. ah Executive dysfunction can be a really ah big thing. So you could argue that's an argument against there being an overlap between veganism and autistic folks that planning, sourcing and cooking strictly vegan meals could be seen as a mentally taxing stuff. And autistic people often feel overwhelmed and shut down. But I would argue the opposite. I would argue that in the early days of being vegan,
00:22:26
Speaker
I loved going to a place where there was one vegan option. And I brought this up with Anthony when I first was approached about doing this show and he was said it's called Enough of the Falafel because I'm sick of there just being one choice on a menu and it being falafel. And it's like, oh, no, I love that.
00:22:42
Speaker
yeah I love that because I'm overwhelmed by choice. So I don't feel it mentally taxing. learning new vegan, are quite the opposite, quite the opposite. I kind of think that at home, I can nerd out. And when I'm in the scary outside world, if you're like, here's the one vegan choice, sign me up. If anything, I find all vegan restaurants joyful, but overwhelming. yeah Joyful, but a bit much when I'm like, but how do I choose? How do I choose? I think, I mean, i yeah, I agree with you to a degree with that. I do think, I mean, certainly for me where I've... um
00:23:23
Speaker
where I discuss about the grains, when I said about my kitchen that you saw, um and and all of that, I mean, it took me ages, but and I'm talking months to research what grains had what nutrition.
00:23:37
Speaker
um And I think when when I had it all, and then it was like, right, now what do I cook? Now what do I make? I've got all of these wonderful grains that are going to give me all of the nutrition, all of the vitamins and everything that I need. I've got everything in my fridge, etc. What do I make?
00:23:54
Speaker
That was decision fatigue. I did experience that where it's like, am I going to make a curry tonight? Am I going to make um a vegan pasta bake? Am I going to just have vegan burger chips and beans and that? So I did experience that. However,
00:24:12
Speaker
I totally relate with going to a restaurant and going, Oh, there's only falafel on the menu. Because yeah, that's such an easy decision. I don't have to think about it. I don't get worried that I'm going to make the wrong decision. i don't that is just easy. I go right I know what I'm having. I know I like it.
00:24:31
Speaker
I think there's very few foods that I dislike. I do have an advantage of liking most foods apart from my olives probably. So it is pretty easy to walk into a restaurant go, I'll have that.
00:24:41
Speaker
I do share when you go into a vegan restaurant, it's fantastic. It's great when we go to one of the places that we go on a regular basis. It's great. It's there. But we can always predict what one another is going to have, even though there's choices, because we just have the same thing every time. It's not boring or anything like it. It's just because that's it's what autism is for us, our particular...
00:25:05
Speaker
variety of autism just is we we seek comfort in the familiar we that's our familiar so I think you know I couldn't choose anything else I have to go for the same things all the time because that's it it it reduces my my overwhelm I don't have to think of much else I don't get decision fatigue now by doing that so where I did at the start when I first went vegan because I was looking too big I have found it much easier to reduce down and actually think, yeah, I'm going to do that. And it's, if I was a meat eater, I would be even more overwhelmed because I wouldn't have, like, I would have too many choices. I'd have the vegetarian, vegan, and the meat option. I wouldn't be able to choose, and that would be too much. yeah So actually being vegan actually satisfies that part of me that needs the familiar, that seeks comfort and, know,
00:26:01
Speaker
safety the familiar. up That's so true. And speaking of comfort and safety, we've spoken a lot about being overwhelmed by information like like choices, but there's there's sort of sensory overwhelm when it comes to smell.
Sensory Sensitivity and Food Experiences
00:26:16
Speaker
and sensory overwhelm from from texture. I think that that meat can be ah quite unpredictable. Like, you know you know, I do have vague memories of eating meat as a child. And, you know, you could get different meat that, that you know, it might be particularly fatty or even grisly. I've had like horrible experiences. And I think that if you're, you know, making food with raw ingredients, with with vegetables, so that you can...
00:26:45
Speaker
have more control over the texture. So the predictability of it, I think, is a ah really, really good thing. And yeah, I have always appreciated that that aspect.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yeah, I think I mean, I agree with you. I think, you know, I remember um like gristle and food that I really hated as a kid. I remember finding surprise bits. um I mean, we always will find surprise bits in food. I do if I eat a packet of crisps now and there's a really hard bit, it really puts me off. But um with I think, you know, if I think back and remember various bits of eating horrible meat. Yeah, I just don't.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, I really didn't like the the surprise bits. I really did like the familiarity. I am um very sensitive to smell. um I know we've discussed before about fish um and the smell of fish. I'm walking around a supermarket and you walk past the fish mongers and it's just awful. And if I ate fish, that would still put me off.
00:27:54
Speaker
because I am sensitive to it, it really puts me off. And again, vegan foods, and I mean, even curries, I mean, they're full of spices and that, but I don't find that overwhelming. It's a positive experience for me. And I think where my autism does say yeah um that's a sensory overload, there's the the smell of that is really strong.
00:28:17
Speaker
Because of the familiarity of like spicy foods, I find safety in that, so therefore the food is predictable and safe. but foods that that has a smell like fish, I think because there's also the worry of being sick from eating something like fish. I think that that smell in my mind, certainly it's like, again, it's black and white thinking either I'm going to be well or ill.
00:28:44
Speaker
And if I eat fish, I'm going to be ill if I vegan curry, I'm going to be well. Yeah. So I think that's a factor in Certainly for me with vegan diets, I know I'm going to be well. There's no chance of, or there's a reduced chance of becoming ill or getting food poisoning from a vegan diet because there's no dairy to go off. There's no meat that would go off if it's stored incorrectly.
00:29:07
Speaker
Most vegan foods are stored correctly. and Most vegan foods, especially... It's harder to store them incorrectly, isn't it? It's so easy to store meat poorly. Yes, exactly. exactly Especially in the the summer that we're experiencing at the moment, where we're sat in 35 degrees Celsius heat. It's like, yeah, it's so easy. And I mean, there are so many places in the news that are said for storing their meat and dairy products incorrectly where people have got sick. But it's very rare that you'll read about a vegan restaurant or anything that has had somebody.
00:29:42
Speaker
that's got um food poisoning through even poor hygiene you know i think people that are vegan up that certainly run vegan restaurants actually have a higher degree of um cleanliness and that as well maybe they're neuro spicy maybe they are to have that as well for their cleaning I think there's two more questions I'd like to discuss before we round off the show, David. um We're talking a lot about autistic folks being more likely to become vegan. There certainly have been arguments I've seen about vegan diets cause
Addressing Myths: Veganism and Autism
00:30:20
Speaker
autism. I mean, there's a whole load of right wing politicians and shock horror headline, David and I don't identify as right wing. That's right. The autistic gay vegans don't identify as the right wing. What a surprise, what a surprise.
00:30:35
Speaker
But ah David, what would you say to people who claim vegan diets cause the autism? Well, yes, I really disagree. i don't. yeah I was autistic before I was vegan.
00:30:48
Speaker
So I can't agree that vegan diets lead to autism. I think I was probably born with autism. There's lots of debates about whether autism is nature or nurture. um I think I was born with um autism. I think it's always been there and part of my life. As I said before, when I was a kid, I was excluded for being different because I was the quiet person who found any social interaction awkward, who found small talk awkward, who...
00:31:19
Speaker
um really didn't understand um when people imply things I need to be told directly or when people say I'll see you later it meant oh they'll I'll see them later tonight yeah actually they mean in a few days time I wasn't vegan then I wasn't vegetarian then So I really don't think it does lead to being autistic. It's the other way around. Autistic it led me to being vegan. The statement does veganism or the question does veganism cause autism?
00:31:53
Speaker
Having i I agree with you, I struggle with things that are implied. But what I get implied from that question, does veganism cause the autism?
00:32:04
Speaker
is the assumption that the autism is bad, that autism is a bad thing. Yeah, I know. Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of debate about like autism is a bad thing, that it's seen as something that needs to be fixed, but it's not because that's saying that anybody with autism is inherently broken.
00:32:23
Speaker
um And i don't think I'm a broken person or broken because I'm autistic. Again, i think autism is my superpower. So actually, I'm a superhuman as opposed to being broken um from having autism. So yeah, i I definitely don't agree. Which is a view that, you know, Greta Thunberg, Chris Packham, people we were talking about at the beginning, take that route. I, ah like a lot of folks on the social media, I see all kinds of accounts from different people that could be really interesting. And there's one, I'm really trying and remember what it's called. It's not a vegan account. It's ah a dad with two autistic boys who shares their autistic journey. And these two lads, they're they're nonverbal. So only as teenagers have they begun to text their dad. They thought that that day would never come. And this dad loves his sons so, so much. And I do look at their journey most days and think,
00:33:26
Speaker
You know, those boys are fantastic. They're fantastic. They're living in a different way. And that is a different way of viewing them and their lives to what is commonly presented. That is not a topic of pity. They're quite happy. They dance, they sing, they eat, they play, they share joy, they share love. And...
00:33:49
Speaker
love does not have to be verbal love does not have to be neurotypical so yeah i really don't think that autism is inherently a bad thing i do a lot of work where i go into schools and work with young people with autism and it's great i'm not saying this is universal but it's great to see in many places there's more support more recognition More education for the neurotypical students to be more accepting of autistic children. When I was at school, I used to cry loads. oh i used to Yeah, yeah. we but And then be mocked. and And, you know, now I go into schools and see neurodiverse children crying and the other children have been educated and they don't mock them.
00:34:33
Speaker
no they support each other yeah yeah i'm not saying that's a universal thing but i'm saying it's a common thing i see and that is a joyful thing it's a big change from where we were when we were kids back in the 90s um to now so yeah it's nice to see that um education has moved on in the way that it has it's still got a long way to to go but it's certainly in comparison you know you and i certainly have the benefit of being able to look back we have the benefit of hindsight and we can know what we experienced and as you say when you go into schools now you can see that children are looked after in a much more healthy and appropriate way children are given the space that have autism to
00:35:18
Speaker
to be themselves and they're encouraged to be themselves rather than told where you're different stop acting up you sit in the corner when actually we need to pace because we're so overwhelmed with everything yeah so it's brilliant to see that schools are doing that i think there's a huge way to go with that because um Yeah, but I mean, you know, we still have the same problems now.
Societal Challenges for Autistic Individuals
00:35:44
Speaker
I still find it really difficult because I shouldn't have to explain to people I'm autistic.
00:35:50
Speaker
I shouldn't have to say i have autism. um I remember reading an article about someone, I think I told you back a few months ago that was attending a concert in Manchester and he said,
00:36:03
Speaker
hey he and his wife, um he went to go and get a drink for his wife and left his wife in the crowd. And after getting a drink, he started making his way back and people were blocking him. And he was trying to tell people, I have autism. And to cut a long story short, he had a meltdown in the middle of everything because no one helped him. Everyone was just like, as they are, I mean, people get carried away in concerts and everything else. But he had a meltdown and he was trying to explain he has autism but nobody cared nobody and yet people say we haven't we can't empathize but yeah you would i mean this is assuming that everyone around him was neurotypical but they lacked empathy yeah for sure so you know i think so yeah to share your point of schools definitely I think that so I said I had two questions. I'm coming up to the final question, and I think you're beginning to answer it with that last anecdote. The final question is we want more vegans. We want the vegan movement to be inclusive. So how can the vegan movement help neuro spicy folks feel
Inclusivity in the Vegan Movement
00:37:10
Speaker
included? think that's a really key thing that
00:37:15
Speaker
Sometimes autistic neuro spicy folks do things that might be seen as odd, but if they're not hurting anyone, what's the problem? What's the problem? And I got to say, my experience of neurotypical vegans has been a really good one, actually. I'm not saying that all neurotypical vegans are fantastic at dealing with neuro diverse folks. I'm not saying that vegans never make mistakes. I'm a vegan and I make loads of mistakes all the time, all the time. too But I do think that, yeah, if we want the vegan movement to be inclusive, we all do well to be aware that
00:37:56
Speaker
sometimes autistic people say, I need this and to not be dismissive of that. i think that's really hard for autistic people when we say, oh, we need this and we're not listened to. That's the odd thing, isn't it? That's the hard thing that often autistic people are scared to say their support needs because they've not been listened to so often and they've been dismissed. Well, come on. Yeah, just pull yourself together. Come on. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. I think that Yeah, that being dismissed like that does lead us to just be like, well, I don't have, you know, no one is going to listen to me, no one's going to make adjustments for me if I say I really struggle with this, or, you know, I need I need this, I need whatever it is. think I mean, for me, certainly speaking from my own personal experience, I do find it really difficult to say,
00:38:52
Speaker
what I feel sometimes because other people have just been like, you know, because I've taken so long to get there or I haven't explained it in that that way or because my body language has actually said the opposite.
00:39:05
Speaker
People have just made those assumptions in life and therefore now i I struggle whether I can say something, you know, whether I can say, and that does come down to even like my meal choices and stuff. I mean, in in the past, you know, as people have given me a cup of tea, and I've been like, okay, I can't say anything about that. And I just end up not not drinking it And I'm not not a tea drinker, really. I'm a coffee drinker. But It's accepting that um because I haven't felt able to. And I mean, I know there's an argument for being assertive or confidence, but because autism plays such a big part of my thoughts and feelings and decisions in that black and white.
00:39:49
Speaker
Either I can or I can't say something. And quite often I feel i can't because people don't understand what it's like. people Neurotypical people don't understand what it's like to feel awkward in a conversation or to to have any of that.
00:40:04
Speaker
If you have not seen a person with autism have a meltdown, of course, different meltdowns will be different from different people. There's not one universal way, but it's not uncommon for an autistic person having a meltdown to be a scary thing to see. An autistic person having a meltdown might shout, they might scream, they might bang their fists against the wall or the ground, they might bang their head against the wall or the ground.
00:40:35
Speaker
They're not really in a state to be reasoned with. All you can do is reassure. All you could do. And the autistic person having the meltdown might lash out at you. Like, you know, they might say cruel things.
00:40:50
Speaker
the brain is so overwhelmed, they're not going to be in that state forever. So that's not the time for teaching. That's not, you know, that you're just going to add to the overwhelmed state. If you're like, come on now, let's do this. Let's do that. Let's do the other.
00:41:05
Speaker
It's like that there's, if we're talking about the vegan, your typical movement being inclusive, having an angry reaction or a ah crying reaction, a sad reaction, ah you know, a meltdown where emotion just completely overwhelms, you know, it might feel like the end of the world for the autistic person, then it might feel like the end of the world for the person watching it who maybe hasn't seen an autistic person have a meltdown. But it's not the end of the world. It's not. And the best thing you can do is be reassuring.
00:41:39
Speaker
which could be odd and we're not always trained for it. I think people of our age aren't always trained for it. I mentioned the joy of going into schools and seeing kids ah who are with adults who have been trained for it.
00:41:51
Speaker
But yeah, just be reassuring. And I know that that's not effortless and that's not always easy, but it's not the end of the world. The moment will pass. The autistic person won't be like that forever. You know, that a meltdown is a specific state that passes. Yeah, and I think it's important here as well to say, I mean, we're not saying that neurotypicals have to understand what it's like for us and therefore we need to be given like, you know, wrapped up in cotton wool and protected so that we don't have a meltdown. It's just recognising what to do that we do get, you know, overwhelmed and that a meltdown and it's very different to a panic attack as well. I mean, I would use an analogy of when someone is having a meltdown, if you've never seen it before, as being the same as what somebody might do if they were having a seizure. What you might do to support somebody having a seizure is you would be there.
00:42:47
Speaker
You would make sure that they're not hurting themselves. You remove the dangerous things around them. You don't hold them down. You don't restrain the head, you carry on, you let the person's body do what it's doing during the seizure, but you remove a chair or something so that they don't harm themselves so much, but you let them carry on until the seizure's over. If somebody's having a meltdown, certainly for me, remove everything that I could maybe hurt myself with, But stay there because I don't want to be alone. Whatever's causing it, I'll have the meltdown. it will take as long as it takes, to quote damn Daddy Pig. But, but yeah, it it does take it does take as long as it takes. But then, you know, be there.
00:43:31
Speaker
I don't necessarily want you to put your arm around me and, you know, certainly... people with autism, you know, have different needs. Some people do, you know, I certainly, I am a more tactile person when I'm in distress. And I think, uh, other people and not other people don't want to have an arm around them. Yeah. Like I'm more the other way on. I like with me, I, I, I, having an arm wrapped around, we would be more sensory in the car. So I would kind of, but but again, even in the ah meltdown, I think most autistic people are quite good at saying what they need. They might just say it in a voice that that can be a bit scary to the person hearing it. Yeah, of course. And I mean, you know, yes, because it can, you know, there are times where ah voices are raised. And as Dominic has said, as you've said, like banging your fists into the ground, it can look like you're being antisocial, it can look intimidating, it can feel intimidating, if you're there watching it happen.
00:44:26
Speaker
But the point is, is it will come to an end. You're not the person that's at risk or anything else. The person that having the meltdown is probably more likely to hurt themselves than anybody else, despite what it looks like.
00:44:39
Speaker
So it's ah it's about listening to what that person, even if it is just hearing what they're saying, letting them have the meltdown, listen to what what it is. It might not make sense to you in that moment. It might be a lot of rambling. God knows I ramble a lot about a lot of things and I'm not even having a meltdown sometimes. Same. Yeah. It's, you know, I think just being heard is the important thing. Just knowing that someone's not judging you because I've certainly had meltdowns and I can certainly go back to my school years and think, I had a meltdown in class and the teacher's just right.
00:45:15
Speaker
Oh, he was having a temper tantrum. And it's like, but I was, I mean, I don't, I know now I didn't then because I believe that's what I was because that's what I was told by the appropriate adults in my life. But now I know as an adult, yes, that was me having a meltdown, having had many of them in my adult life.
00:45:33
Speaker
But for me, certainly, it's important to have my needs recognised and just to be listened to. yeah And to ask what it is that I want. yeah you know But obviously, let the meltdown happen. Don't restrict it. Yeah.
00:45:48
Speaker
And, you know, there aren't any, like, buzzwords that are work in every situation. But I might try and start with things like, I'm here. Yes. We'll get through this. know, I'm not going anywhere.
00:46:00
Speaker
They're there. good things yeah to try saying. I think that's a universal thing. I think, you know, for me, I mean, yes, everybody's different, but I do think that sort of thing, because I think for neurotypicals, just being told, like, I'm here for you when you're upset or having a panic attack, even, you know, it's like, They are great buzzwords to hear because we need to know, you know, human beings are people who need each other by, you know, in nature, by nature. um So I think that, yeah, those buzzwords are important for anybody to hear, whether neurodiverse or not
00:46:38
Speaker
i think it's important to know that during a time of great distress whether it's rational or not whether the person witnessing it believes it to be rational or not it's important to to know that we're not alone in the moment and that we're safe in that moment and that it will end because sometimes for the person experiencing melt it does feel like it won't end but it does it will because the body has a brilliant way of recovering from that and as neuro spicy peer we also do know our own bodies afterwards but during that moment it's so overwhelming that it's impossible to think logically it's impossible to feel the right things because everything is
00:47:22
Speaker
going through our heads and we can't take one more one more bit of inflation. It's just too much. So just having, if you're there and, you know, if someone is there and you're witnessing it happen, just be there. yeah Tell them you're there.
00:47:39
Speaker
And I think, you know, that will help the situation massively. Definitely, definitely.
Reflection and Appreciation
00:47:46
Speaker
And you know what, David, I feel that we help a situation massively doing this podcast. I'm so proud of doing it. And I'm so proud to have shared today's episode with you, David. ah Me too. I'm so proud to have shared it with you, Dominic. He's a good one, this David. He's good one. You have to say that. Well, as much as I do love David, but perhaps our listeners have disagreed with something we've said or we've missed something or you want to tell us that we're great.
00:48:11
Speaker
We really welcome you to get in touch, share your opinions. David, what is our email address? um Yes, it's enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. That's enoughofthefalafel is all one word, at gmail.com. We read and respond to each email sent by everybody yeah and we feature them on our mailbag shows unless you tell us we not to.
00:48:36
Speaker
If you want to help the show, we have a Ko-Fi page, ko-fi page. dot com forward slash enough the flaffle and you can you can fund us we don't have any marketing budget we really appreciate uh people are giving us money it's wonderful you can donate as little as one pound a month and it helps us get new equipment make the show as good as it possibly can be Yes, that's right, Dominic. um And you can also rate us or leave a review on your podcast player, subscribe to the show, um and that tells your podcast player that we're a great show because we are fantastic, as well as and it gives you alerts when the new episodes drop.
00:49:15
Speaker
um And you can also tell everyone you know about the show and or you can share it. Well, thank you everyone for listening. The next Enough of the Falafel episode will be coming out on 27th of July. That will be Vegan Week with Kate, Paul and Shane. A roundup of the week's vegan and animal rights news stories.
00:49:37
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you to my boyfriend, Dominic, for all of ah your contributions. Thank you to each and every one of you out there for listening. We appreciate you greatly. I've been David, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:49:59
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsflap.com.
00:50:14
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:50:40
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:51:01
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:51:15
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.