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The Last Jedi Is Good, Actually (Ft. HuttSLeia)
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This week on the podcast, we discuss Star Wars: The Last Jedi on it's 6th anniversary! Joining us in the discussion is special guest Em aka HuttSLeia, and we talked all things GREAT about Episode VIII: The Last Jedi.
This is the Wayseekers is a Star Wars podcast, with new episodes every other Friday @ 8:00am CT. Join your hosts Austin SWE and Scotty Holiday SW as they navigate their ways through the Star Wars galaxy.
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Transcript
The Last Jedi's Legacy
00:00:03
Speaker
Today, The Last Jedi turned six years old, and you were kinda mean about that movie. You should feel ashamed of yourself. That's right, the most divisive Star Wars movie is now in first grade, and to celebrate, we're going to talk about how we like it? I think that Rose is literally meant to embody Star Wars. Joining me in this conversation are two more Disney shills, including our special guest, Huts Leia, who is here to help us spread the gospel on this holy day. This is amazing storytelling.
00:00:30
Speaker
We discussed it all from Aktu to Krayt to Kanto Bite to Kylo Ren's titties, so prepare to jump straight into this very controversial episode of This Is The Way. Seekers.
00:00:53
Speaker
All right, everybody, brace yourselves. We're talking about The Last Jedi today. Probably the most controversial Star Wars movie of all time. It's divisive. That was The Last Jedi. Like I said, one of the most important movies to me as a Star Wars fan. And before you click off, trust me, we're going to talk about that here.
Initial Reactions to The Last Jedi
00:01:14
Speaker
But Scotty, I want to know about what was your kind of relationship with The Last Jedi going into it coming off of The Force Awakens and
00:01:24
Speaker
kind of your expectations and were they met the first time you watched the movie? I don't know if this is going to be controversial. Of course, it's going to be controversial, but I'm going to take us on a journey this episode. So I remember for me with The Last Jedi leading up to it, there was so much speculation, especially coming off of The Force Awakens, like who is Rey related to? Who is Snoke?
00:01:49
Speaker
what is Luke gonna do? Because he didn't do nothing in The Force Awakens. So there was so much anticipation going into this. And I was very excited about it. I had been rewatching the Star Wars movies with my best friend. And this was the first movie that I got to take her to see her first Star Wars movie ever in theaters. So we went and saw the movie together. And we got out of the movie. And we were kind of like,
00:02:15
Speaker
What the fuck did we just watch? And I specifically remember saying to her in the cars, we're kind of talking about it. I was like, I'm sorry, this is the first Star Wars movie that I took you to see because it was just like such a weird experience for us at the time. And I look back now and I'm like. Oh.
00:02:36
Speaker
I like kind of cringe thinking about this, but like I have to tell my truth. So that was me. That was me walking out of the movie theater for it. Like I kind of already hinted at. I've definitely come very far with the movie, but initially, like. I was not a fan. Mm hmm.
00:02:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of people were in that position of not being a fan. I think that the nature of the movie, it's very different from any other Star Wars movie. And so I think a lot of people's initial reaction was like, huh? Like it took a lot of thinking. Even for me, The Last Jedi was my most anticipated movie of all time. But I was also I was a teenage boy. OK, I wasn't going into it sitting here being excited for
00:03:23
Speaker
the prospects of the story and the themes of what Luke Skywalker is going through. No, I wanted to see Luke Skywalker versus Snoke. I want to see Kylo Ren versus Luke. I wanted to see Kylo Ren and Snoke infiltrate. That was what I was going into it expecting and that's not what I got.
00:03:45
Speaker
But I realized like the Last Jedi is the movie that really got me into movies and storytelling as a whole. And I joke that it's the movie that gave me comprehension skills. Like it's the movie that I was like, oh, yeah, there's a beautiful movie behind Star Wars or a beautiful story behind Star Wars.
00:04:03
Speaker
You need comprehension skills for this one. And that was something that I did not have at the time that I, I'd like to think that I do a little bit now, at least. Right. A hundred percent. Em, what was your relationship with the Last Jedi when you first saw it? Did you enjoy it from the jump? What was that like?
00:04:20
Speaker
I loved it immediately. Immediately. I had a wonderful time in that theater. I was so ready to soak up everything that I was being offered. Right. And yeah, I felt like
00:04:38
Speaker
I really felt excited. Like when I left the theater, having seen The Last Jedi, I was like, oh my gosh, like Star Wars is for me. You know, as someone who like saw the original trilogy as a child,
00:04:57
Speaker
experience the prequels as a young adult. This was really, it was really fulfilling because I feel like I had always wanted to love Star Wars more than, for more than what it was giving me.
00:05:13
Speaker
And this was like, oh, yes, this is what I want. This is what I wanted from my Star Wars. I love that. When I was first watching The Last Jedi in theaters, I also had a great
Luke Skywalker's Arc and Themes of Failure
00:05:28
Speaker
time. I loved it. And I remember sitting there thinking, wow, I think people are going to love a lot of this. Like I said, a lot of it was different than what I was expecting. But I never came out of it feeling like I didn't
00:05:43
Speaker
I wasn't satisfied with the movie. It was obviously not what I wanted. Like, I was super satisfied with what happened with Luke, for example, by the end of the movie and everything that went down on crate. I thought that was the coolest shit ever. It's the best theater experience I've ever had. And it even beats things like Avengers Endgame, where it's like a football game and everybody's going crazy for me. The Last Jedi beats that, like the energy in that theater, you know, when it's revealed that Luke wasn't actually there. Oh,
00:06:13
Speaker
My God, the mind fuck, the mind fuck. Slowly. The way we're going to do this, we're going to break it down by different elements. We have like a list of a bunch of different things in the movies, different characters or, you know, the different plot lines and factions. We're just going to we're just going to have a fun little conversation about it. You know, feel free to yell at us in the comments, whatever you want to do. I agree with you and speak your truth. OK, so.
00:06:42
Speaker
from the jump, Luke Skywalker. I think that this really was Luke Skywalker's movie. The sequels, the way they were built, it was like the Force Awakens Han Solo's movie, the Last Jedi Luke's movie, and episode nine would have been Leia's movie, but unfortunately it wasn't able to happen. Luke Skywalker, I don't think that anybody was expecting what Luke Skywalker's role was in this movie. You know, for me,
00:07:10
Speaker
I never even thought about what Luke Skywalker was doing on that island or that it could have been for a reason that he was, like, depressed. I don't know. Like for me, again, I was just I was just a teenage boy. I love Luke Skywalker, my hero from the original trilogy. So I was like, yeah, he's going to whoop ass in this last movie. In my mind, Ray was going to be like,
00:07:32
Speaker
Come on let's let's go fight and he's like oh my god i've been waiting for years i have been training and i'm ready i'm ready for this that's what i thought that that's what i thought looks roles gonna be so when it was actually like a. Super thematic story about failure and learning from your mistakes.
00:07:51
Speaker
I was like, wow. Like, again, I learned a lot from this movie and through things like Luke Skywalker. But from The Force Awakens, it's just something I never thought of. But when I look back, I'm like, wait a second. Han Solo dies in that movie. Leia is in huge danger. You know, everything's being fucked up. And Luke Skywalker, the hero, is missing. He misses all of that.
00:08:17
Speaker
Why did it never click in my brain that there had to have been a reason for that? Like, if he was just there training or doing something like that, it would have been even more selfish than what we actually got, I feel like. But I want to know what was your guys' relationship with that? Did you expect Luke Skywalker to be in this type of role? What did you want to see from Luke in this movie versus what we actually got?
00:08:43
Speaker
Okay, um, I was really ready to just surrender to whatever the story was going to give me. I find often in the Star Wars space there are, it seems very normal for people to have like to be invested
00:08:59
Speaker
in what we in the fanfic world call head cannons or like you know what what you think is going to happen or like your interpretation of like the next logical step from where the story left but i just don't think that way i i prefer to go into a story with as few expectations as possible and to just be really open to what i'm going to be offered because i find that that's
00:09:23
Speaker
The thing is, I get a lot of personal satisfaction out of engaging critically with media. I love talking about the broader implications of something like, what is this trying to say about our culture?
Fan Expectations vs. Movie Reality
00:09:37
Speaker
What is this reflecting? Why was this choice made and not that choice? Those types of things.
00:09:49
Speaker
I find that when you go into a story with a lot of preconceived notions you have to tear them down before you can do that so to me that's just an extra step so i'm like you know if i'm really invested in enjoying something it's kind of like a paradox it's like the more i'm invested in enjoying a story the less invested i am in.
00:10:09
Speaker
trying to imagine what's going to happen because I want to just be ready to absorb whatever I'm given. So I never had any issues with what I was presented with in the last night for Luke or for anybody else.
00:10:22
Speaker
I love that you brought this up because after the sequel trilogy, I wasn't in the online fandom, but I was still like watching people on YouTube talk about the movie, speculating theories, all of that. So I was like still participating, but almost silently, which is crazy to think about looking back.
00:10:41
Speaker
You mentioning em about going into it not having all these expectations built up I think that's what I'm gonna be honest and say kind of ruined this movie for me and a lot of the sequel trilogy and Around I would say
00:10:57
Speaker
In the lead up to book of Boba Fett was when I finally was like, no more rumors, no more leaks. Like all that did was set up all these expectations. So when things didn't happen that were leaked or, you know, we're a rumor that was going to happen.
00:11:12
Speaker
I'd be disappointed or you know in the case of this movie like Austin you mentioned already at the beginning like I also was like I can't wait to see Luke and Snoke have a crazy battle and it's gonna be so amazing and it's like you had mentioned I think there were leaks and the first order was gonna invade octo or whatever and it's just like I
00:11:35
Speaker
I learned that going into these projects with all these preconceived notions and thinking I know what's going to happen. And then when it doesn't happen, I just get upset about it. But I'm like, I'm not upset with the media itself. I'm mad that I set all these things up in my head and got my hopes up. And when that's not what I was presented, that's why I'm disappointed. Not because the piece of media was disappointing.
00:11:59
Speaker
Right now, one thing I will say with me and Luke, I've kind of talked about this before, but I've kind of only recently realized it. I don't connect with Luke much as a character. I never really have. So while I was like, yeah, he's going to be this great Jedi master, I wasn't upset seeing him be depressed on the island out of the fight. It didn't really bother me. Like, I think it bothered other people.
Kylo Ren's Internal Struggles
00:12:30
Speaker
But another thing, just looking back at it, I'm like, I almost feel like on top of like what we know happened, you know, in the lead up to these movies. I also kind of feel like Luke had a lot of pressure put on him by Obi-Wan, by Yoda, by the galaxy and probably himself to being like, you're our only hope. You're the one that's going to save everything. So of course, like when you're put up
00:12:55
Speaker
and like push to be this thing that's basically a god. It was like you are, you know, some people argue Luke was the chosen one as well. You can never live up to these crazy expectations. Like it's just not possible. And I mean, I would get depressed about it too. So like everything aside with with, you know, Ben and whatnot. And I'm just like,
00:13:19
Speaker
This doesn't seem like it's not an option or a route that he could have went as a character. It's just not what people expected.
00:13:28
Speaker
I also have a theory as to why Luke rejected that. Yeah, I wanna hear. I wanna hear. Go ahead. Well, the key I think comes in what Luke teaches Rey about the Force, about how he teaches her that light and dark are both present and in a way they're interdependent and inseparable from each other. And when you come to that realization,
00:13:53
Speaker
you understand that there is no one golden person declaring victory over all evil forever. It's not possible. I don't think that Luke was only depressed because of his betrayal of his family. I think he also had lost hope
00:14:16
Speaker
in fulfilling what everyone told him that he should aspire to and in what everyone was expecting of him. Because he realized that it's just not the way the universe functions.
00:14:30
Speaker
Well, yeah, it's not possible to be perfect. Nobody can really be perfect. And if we think about it, what was he learning with the Jedi Order? He had the sacred Jedi texts, which we knew there was issues there. He was searching around the galaxy leading up to this finding old artifacts and stuff and modeling his Jedi Order off of the Jedi Order of old. There was all this imagery leading up about the Prime Jedi
00:14:58
Speaker
And it's kind of funny because it's almost like a juxtaposition. Like it's being projected outlook like this is who you're supposed to be. And he's like, nobody can be the prime Jedi. But kind of like what you were saying is, you know, when we look at it, it's got the side of the light and the side of the dark. And it's like you've kind of got to have a little bit of everything. You can't just be exactly one thing. You can't be perfect.
00:15:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that nobody really expected. Like, it's not that it doesn't make sense what Luke Skywalker's story was. It's that...
00:15:32
Speaker
It just wasn't what people expected, what people thought would happen, but it's very clearly something that could actually happen because as Ryan Johnson emphasizes in this movie with all the characters, these are humans who do human things. And two, I think what's interesting is that
00:15:51
Speaker
Again, as I mentioned before, Han dies in The Force Awakens and Luke is absent. It's not The Last Jedi that made that decision to put Luke Skywalker on an island depressed and shut away. It was The Force Awakens. And honestly, in my opinion, I don't want to get too far into it, but I feel like The Force Awakens, it didn't
00:16:14
Speaker
Like a lot of fans, it didn't think about what that would actually mean for Luke Skywalker, why he would be absent from his family. And I feel like this was the perfect way to explain that. I feel like it also really lines up with the original trilogy. That's one of people's biggest criticisms with Luke Skywalker, is that his role, what he does in this movie, it's not in character.
00:16:36
Speaker
You know, I think, I think a lot of people have come to terms with the fact that like Luke Skywalker, he sent himself away because he felt like he was a danger to the galaxy, to his family. If he continued to contribute to this fight, he would just make it worse. I feel like people have come to terms with that fact, but I feel like the one I always see come up still is Luke Skywalker would never try to kill his nephew.
00:16:59
Speaker
I think that in context of the movie, it makes total sense and it lines up with the things we see in The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi. In The Empire Strikes Back, you're right. In The Empire Strikes Back, we see Luke Skywalker when he gets a vision that his friends are in danger. The first thing he does is, oh, let me go act on this and go save my friends and I'm going to go save everybody and I'm going to save Vader and it's going to be great.
00:17:28
Speaker
That was his mindset going into it. And he obviously failed, got his ass handed to him, you know, arm cut off or hand cut off, you know, completely failed in Return of the Jedi. It's the same thing like he when he thinks that he's endangering the mission in Return of the Jedi.
00:17:46
Speaker
What does he say to Luke and Han? He's like, I got to go. I'm endangering the mission. I'm making this harder for you guys. He wants to walk away and get out because he feels like he's endangering the mission. And then we see him, you know, people always mention, well, how could Luke not see the good in Ben Solo if he saw the good invader, the most evil man in the galaxy?
Rey and the Continuation of Themes
00:18:08
Speaker
It goes back to Return of the Jedi when Luke, he doesn't want to fight Vader. He's like, I'm not going to fight you until Leia is threatened. He comes out and wants to fight Vader now because his sister is threatened and he loves Leia. I think it lines up. I think in context of what happens in that scene where
00:18:27
Speaker
Luke goes in, sees Ben's mind, sees the future. Mind you, the future that actually happened, the future of him killing Han Solo, endangering Leia. He saw the future that actually happened, just like he did in the Empire Strikes Back. And he thinks, if I just kill him, it's not going to happen. But
00:18:48
Speaker
He only has that thought for like two seconds because it's a logical thought, but it's not a moral thought. It's not something that he should actually do. He's a person. It's almost like an intrusive thought, but it's based on something too.
00:19:03
Speaker
And I think that people don't realize that it's really nothing more than that. It's an intrusive thought. And the movie does visually shows you that this was an intrusive thought that Luke had. He turned on the lightsaber by the time Ben Solo woke up and Luke realized it was too late.
00:19:20
Speaker
Ben Solo was already awake. He saw Luke standing over him with a lightsaber, didn't think any better. It was a miscommunication, a horrible miscommunication. And I'm not saying Luke's innocent, but I don't think that this is something that wouldn't line up with what he did before, because I feel like
00:19:36
Speaker
the movies perfectly set this up. And that's why I always think that The Last Jedi, it does a perfect job at taking what we see in The Force Awakens and also taking what we see in the original trilogy and actually making it a cohesive story. And at the same time,
00:19:52
Speaker
making it super thematic and important and giving you a message, just like Star Wars always has been since the original six movies. It's always been, you know, much more than just a soap opera in space. There's things you can learn from this movie. Let's not forget, too. People like to say that Obi-Wan is like the perfect Jedi or like a great example. But he was also telling Luke he had to kill his father. So, you know, Jedi make mistakes.
00:20:22
Speaker
Right. 100 percent. They're people. Yeah. And and also you also like something that always comes to my mind when people are like, oh, Luke would never want to kill his nephew. I think also people don't understand that there was something that was coming from the opposite side, which is that Ben was alienated from his family.
00:20:43
Speaker
You know, and in some ways he was kind of like always a black sheep and he was always the outsider, you know, when he he had this malevolent presence inside of him from the time he was born. And, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, we could we could argue the same thing, like with Luke, that he also had a bunch of pressure because he's of the Skywalker bloodline. So I'm sure as much pressure put on him there, which is going to also be alienating.
00:21:13
Speaker
100%. And we get some information, but we don't get a lot of detail over how poorly Ben took the revelations from Bloodline. Oh, I have to ask because I didn't read Bloodline, but that's when it's exposed that Leia is Vader's daughter, but nobody ever told Ben.
00:21:39
Speaker
He just finds out because it's like in the news, essentially. Yes. Yeah. And it kind of creates for Ben this kind of out, which I kind of want to talk about later with with Kylo Ren, but it kind of.
00:21:53
Speaker
He sees the dark side as an out from all this pressure from the fact that his family doesn't accept him. And mind you, Kylo Ren is also being manipulated by Snoke the same way that Mannequin was manipulated by Palpatine having dreams of Padme dying and his mother dying and just manipulations like that.
00:22:13
Speaker
Kylo Ren had the same exact thing. And in the books, it is since his conception, not even from birth, like literally in his mother's womb. Yeah. Yeah. It feels a dark presence. Yeah. It's, you know, I feel like things like that, when you take that into account, it makes sense. So I don't know. I think Lou Skywalker, we all like him in the movie. I think that's that's what we got to say there.
00:22:39
Speaker
And the people that want to complain about it, they're going to get what they want in the Mandoverse so we can move on and everyone can be happy. Yeah. Oh, we didn't even get into that because I feel like I feel like the Mandoverse, it's funny because everybody's all like, oh, these are two different versions of the character. I feel like the Mandoverse is doing a really good job of setting up what happens in The Last Jedi, especially in Book of Boba Fett, like the end when he gives Grogu that decision of like,
00:23:06
Speaker
forget your family and come with me you know like that's clearly a mistake from the prequel era jedi order yep so it makes total sense why he would fall into the same traps yeah and the black and white thinking too like it has to be one or the other yeah exactly there's no path
00:23:25
Speaker
They don't have him critiquing the original order and figuring out what would what needs to change what needs to be different and he falls into the same exact trap and I think that I Think that's great storytelling. I don't know what people I was literally gonna be like, come on storytelling Literally is great Okay, Ray
00:23:50
Speaker
Ray, I think you told me this Scotty, this is Ray's best movie, right?
Feminine-Coded Traits and Audience Reception
00:23:56
Speaker
I think so. Both M, you look like you might disagree. No, no, no, I agree. Yeah. I agree 100%. Yes. Ray's role in this movie
00:24:09
Speaker
I really love what Rey does in this movie. I think that the revelations about her character and what she goes through, all amazing stuff that I really enjoy. But I feel like I've talked quite a bit. Scotty, what do you think about Rey in this movie? Because you're the one that said originally that it was her best movie. Yeah. I mean, I do think it is her best movie because
00:24:34
Speaker
I don't want to argue too much about the whole lineage situation. But, you know, all of The Force Awakens, she's so hyper focused on who are who are my parents? They're coming back for me. I have to get back to Jakku. And then we know that the events of The Last Jedi take place right after The Force Awakens. And it's, you know, after she goes in the dark side cave, she kind of has that moment. She it's almost like that chapter kind of closes and she just accepts that
00:25:04
Speaker
she is just Ray. And that's okay. I mean, we see that it leads into companionship with Kylo Ren later in the movie. But one of my favorite things about Ray in this movie and kind of about this movie in general is that a lot of people are acting on their emotions. And we see that in Star Wars,
00:25:28
Speaker
but I feel like it's always done in somewhat of a negative light, whereas I feel like in this movie when we see Rey acting more on her emotions,
00:25:37
Speaker
It kind of progresses the plot in a positive way. Some of the things specifically that I liked where, you know, Luke tells her not to go to the cave. You feel that dark presence on the island. Like, don't worry about that. She goes there anyway because she wants to know. She wants answers. She wants to know why it's calling to her. She literally makes contact with Kylo Ren. They touch in the hut.
00:26:04
Speaker
like and that was because she she wanted to she simply just wanted to it's not like she was trying to I don't even think she knew what she was going to get out of it but like her emotions her head was telling her to do it and so she did it and then also attacking Luke when she realizes he kind of left out some details about his confrontation with Ben back in the day and I enjoy it that
00:26:31
Speaker
the movie shows that she's not afraid to kind of let her emotions, let herself feel things. We keep talking about how Luke kind of struggled because he was too stuck in the Jedi teachings of old, whereas Rey is literally like the new generation. He's the new student that, or she's the new student that Luke is teaching, and she's already doing things differently. And that was one of the issues, I mean,
00:26:57
Speaker
Anakin Skywalker, hello, like people were like, you don't, you can't have any emotions. And that boy had lots of emotions. So it was really refreshing to see Ray kind of act on her emotions and come into her own almost in this movie for me. Plus, I like her outfit. I think
00:27:17
Speaker
Oh yeah. The, the dark gray one for sure. Her best outfit and her hair's out of the bun. She let it down. She loosened up. She was like, you know, I'm going to try a little something different and I'm okay with that. Don't even get me started on that because
00:27:33
Speaker
I absolutely loved the thematic element of Rey's costume because obviously the darker tones, she changes into this costume when she's on her way to go see Kylo Ren, and they're not going to fight this time. She's sort of embracing this idea. I mean, she believes that she's going to turn Kylo Ren, but
00:27:57
Speaker
you know, I don't think she realizes that she was like kind of towing with the dark side a little bit there. The hair down, you know, that signifies that she's finally letting go of her past. And as you know, she keeps these buns in her hair because she thinks that her parents are going to come back and, you know, she needs to look the same as she did when they left because she wants them to recognize her. So her letting her hair out of those buns at like
00:28:26
Speaker
Shows that she's moved on and, you know, is ready to embrace the future. Exactly. She wasn't stuck in the past counting the days. Exactly. But somebody on the rise of Skywalker didn't understand. So she put the buns back and she put them back like, come on. Yeah, not my favorite. What do you think, though, about Ray?
00:28:52
Speaker
I love Rey. Rey is a sweet baby angel. I love her so much. I just, okay, yeah, I have so much to say on this topic. Mostly leaping off of what you said, Scotty. It's so interesting how you point out how she's driven by emotion. And this is one of my friends once tweeted out, why do dude bros hate The Last Jedi so much?
00:29:20
Speaker
And I said I was like, it's because it's a story that takes like, there are a lot of people from that demographic who go to Star Wars and see it as a self insert fantasy. And they want to see people being heroes in a way that is traditionally associated with
00:29:41
Speaker
masculine-coded traits, you know, of being like, you know, like heroic and, you know, reckless and, you know, and very sort of warrior-like, whereas in The Last Jedi, the traits that are rewarded with victory are
00:30:01
Speaker
Inquisition, mystery, compassion, you know, intuition. And those are the traits that drive the story. And that is a very, like in our society, not to be like gender essentialist, but like in our society in a storytelling sense, those are like feminine coded traits, right?
00:30:25
Speaker
And like the whole, you know, like I talked about enjoying the movie as like a cis, as somebody who has been like a cis female person my whole life. Like, you know, this is a very femgase movie. And there's actually like a great YouTube video that's on the channel Wit and Folly. And it's all about it traces how Rey's journey follows not the hero's journey of Joseph Campbell, but the heroine's journey.
00:30:54
Speaker
which is a whole other thing. And, you know, a lot of symbolism in female coded stories is elemental. And so you get that in this movie, you get the elements of like water, fire, earth, right? Definitely. So those, you know, like just the image that Ryan used of the tree,
00:31:19
Speaker
that holds the Jedi text like shrouded in mist like that is like a that's like something straight out of like a folk tale about a witch
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah, so true. These are all depictions that evoke the idea of feminine power. And these very sort of feminine coded... Oh yes, and the dude bros are completely against feminine power.
00:31:49
Speaker
in any capacity. They either discount it or they either ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist or they loathe it and rail against it. It's like there's nothing for them in this movie because that's all there is. Not
00:32:11
Speaker
not to get too crazy into gender, but it's so funny that you mentioned these things because I was identifying as a cis male when I first saw the movie. And now that I watched it recently as a non-binary person who has also accepted their more feminine side is like not being a bad thing, like being something to also celebrate along with my masculinity. And now I magically like also really enjoy this movie a lot more. I think you're on to something.
00:32:40
Speaker
I also, yeah, so some other things that I love about Rey, I mean, yeah, I love the way she's so, well, I mean, you know, the whole idea of mystery, I think, is just so important to her because it's like, she just runs right towards it. Like the unknown, like she's constantly running into the unknown. And I just, and I love that about her. Oh, and the last thing I wanted to mention was, you know, talking about her,
00:33:09
Speaker
wanting to stay for her parents and her expecting her parents to come back. I honestly think she starts letting go of that on Takodana. I don't, I don't, like people feel like it's kind of like an about phase, but I honestly, I feel like for one thing, I feel like being offered, for one thing being offered a place on the Falcons crew,
00:33:31
Speaker
I feel like she's kind of like reaching out little vines, like, you know, like those plants that like slowly move themselves. Yeah. Like over the course of a long time. Like, you know, I feel like that's her kind of like reaching out her little tendrils.
Rey's Identity and Legacy
00:33:47
Speaker
And then I think when Maz tells her the belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's like, that's a shamanic
00:33:58
Speaker
Blessing, like that's like somebody who has ventured into the spiritual realm, like in a symbolic sense and is telling you a truth that you know deep inside that you haven't had externalized. You know, this is the externalization of a deep personal truth, which is like in stories, that's a spiritual beat.
00:34:23
Speaker
Right. And a spiritual story beat. And so I think when Maz says that is when the audience is supposed to start twigging to the fact that, you know, Rey is not going to go back to Jakku and she's never going to see her parents again. And that's a fact. And she needs to accept that.
00:34:44
Speaker
And that's why I think Grey Nobody was the best foot forward for Rey's lineage because the thing too that I think is interesting is I guess it's not even necessarily that she's nobody. It's just that like the lineage, it doesn't matter. It doesn't define her. Exactly. One thing I'll keep going back to in this entire discussion is the fact that the theme of this movie is
00:35:12
Speaker
embracing the past, learning from your mistakes, that sort of thing. People always think that the theme of this movie is let the past die. It's been stated a hundred times now that
00:35:24
Speaker
Kylo Ren is the villain of this movie. He is not correct in saying, let the past die. That does not mean that just because he said it, that's the theme of the movie. With this movie, they pretty much everybody is a failure at some point in this movie. And they show how each person is dealing with that failure and how
00:35:46
Speaker
they view the past and can they build off of it or do they need to destroy it? For the villains, you see Kylo Ren, he wants to destroy the past and just let it go and move on. And for Rey, she really wants to hold on to that past. I feel like she
00:36:03
Speaker
is looking to Luke Skywalker to save the day. She's looking to figure out what's going on with her parents, even like she just wants to know who they are. And the worst thing she could hear is that they were nobody. What I really love about Rey, and this is something that I'm stealing from Ryan Johnson. He said this in some interview. I can't remember what it was, but
00:36:28
Speaker
The Force Awakens, the biggest thing is it's compared a lot to A New Hope and Luke Skywalker's journey. Rey and Luke Skywalker, they start off kind of similarly. They're both on a desert planet. There's more to life for them. They're yearning, but I don't really know how they're going to get off that rock. And then one day something crazy happens and it's time to take off and they can never return back home.
00:36:55
Speaker
It's the hero's journey. But what I think is interesting about Rey and Luke is I feel like after that, after that initial setup of Rey, they actually kind of go on opposite paths where for Luke Skywalker, he doesn't want to be part of this story. The fact that he has familial ties to this story is the worst thing that could possibly happen for Luke Skywalker because he's like,
00:37:21
Speaker
I don't want anything to do with this. Now, now I have to care about this fight on a sense that it's personal to me. This is my dad for Ray. What Luke went through would have been perfect for what she wanted, because for her, if she was related to Luke or Han or Leia or anybody, that would have answered her question. And that would have
00:37:41
Speaker
told her what her place is in this story that she can just go on and oh you're the person that it all comes down to but the fact that she is nobody is what makes it so important that it comes down to her to kind of save the day and be the heroine and I think that
00:38:01
Speaker
I don't know, I just like, I just love what Ray, nobody brings to the table with Ray. Cause like I said, it just shows how this movie shows how people deal with their failure. And by the end of this movie, Ray learns that she can, you know, we see it in the end with her and Leia when Ray's like, how can we build the rebellion from this? And Leia's like, we have everything we need because Leia is,
00:38:27
Speaker
going to take the hardships and the losses that they've gone through to this point and make it to make a better future. And I think that, you know, Rey embodies this very well. All right. Rey's equal in the Force, the dyad. The reason Em is on this podcast. No, I'm just kidding.
00:38:51
Speaker
Surely I have more to contribute than that. Of course, of course. Kylo Ren, his role in this movie, I think that Kylo Ren, you know, Ryan Johnson saw Kylo Ren and was like,
00:39:07
Speaker
Okay, we have like a kind of Vader 2.0 here we can, you know, kind of see ties and parallels to Vader. Let's make him a person. Let's make him a human being in this movie. And that's what he did. And, you know, made him
00:39:23
Speaker
But for me, I really cared about Kylo Ren after this movie. I mean, I always loved Kylo from The Force Awakens, but this movie is what really solidified Kylo Ren as like my favorite Star Wars character or my second favorite.
00:39:38
Speaker
I mean, I feel like just taking off the mask just made him even more of a person and so relatable, too. He became so much more relatable. He became way less of like a figure like he was in The Force Awakens. He's just the bad evil villain. And now it's like, oh, who's the man behind the mask? That's such like a simple way to put it. But that's just like you said, Ryan Johnson was like,
00:40:04
Speaker
Let's figure out Kylo Ren the person. Yeah, show his insecurities, his vulnerable side, the things that make Kylo Ren crack. You know, I from from the start of this movie, we see his first scene is with Snoke, right? And he
00:40:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's Kylo's introduction it is because I remember it's the it goes like looks like wait the Falcon wears Han and it's this great transition to Kylo Ren and the mask and from the beginning Snoke is like calling him out on his bullshit, you know, like Kylo
00:40:40
Speaker
He's trying to he's not only trying to convince everybody else that he's the evil person in this story. He's trying to convince himself that he's the evil person in this story. He's sitting there. He's like, I killed Han Solo. I did it, though. And Snoke's like, you little bitch. Yeah, you killed Han Solo. And look what it took for you to do that. And look at what it's done to you. Like what is I think Snoke specifically says it's let him to his core. Yes, I'm not mistaken.
00:41:07
Speaker
Blitz your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced, bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber you felt. Sorry, I love it. Keep up the theatrics. Every time I defend this movie, if it's relevant, I always talk about how the very first scene that Kylo has in this movie
00:41:31
Speaker
is him getting told how terrible he is at being a villain. Right. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Immediately. And in some, I mean, and some people could see it as emotionally abused. He's being emotionally abused. Just like how Snoke has always abused him.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, Snoke is using the hardships that Kylo faces, his insecurities, the things that, you know, he's worried that he'll never live up to, you know, the Skywalkers and then he's worried that he'll never live up to Darth Vader. Snoke exploits that and uses that against him and is like, you want to be Darth Vader? I'll tell you how to be Darth Vader. And so
00:42:11
Speaker
I think Kylo's so interesting in this movie, going back to the whole failure aspect of it. Kylo Ren, he looks at failure in the past and everything that's happened. He just wants to destroy it. He doesn't want to look at it, which also means that he doesn't learn from his mistakes. So what we see happen with Rey and Kylo in this movie, when
00:42:34
Speaker
Ray is kind of like a chance for Kylo Ren, you know, like a second chance here where Kylo Ren, he can learn from his mistakes of the past and not look to the dark side for comfort. And as a cop out, you know, he can allow himself to think that he can do good just as Ray believes in him that he can do good.
00:42:56
Speaker
But because he doesn't take the past and learn from his mistakes, he doesn't he doesn't open himself up to Ray like that. And in the end, falls into the exact same trap and loses Ray. By the end of this movie, she shuts the door on him because he doesn't learn. He has no desire. Well, I think he does have a desire, but it's not it's not something that he thinks he can act on. He doesn't even try. And that's what I think is so interesting about him.
00:43:27
Speaker
I mean, one of the things that I've always kind of thought and like looking back on him as a character in this movie, I always think back and I'm like, I feel like he's still just that scared little kid in the hut that like saw his uncle raising his lightsaber at him. I feel like emotionally he kind of got stuck in that moment or at least how he was internally in that moment. And I mean, even
00:43:52
Speaker
you know, Snoke is like take that ridiculous mask off like, because he's trying to put up this facade like we like you're talking about and we keep talking about. And it's really it's really sad to see him like that. And it and this is kind of also what makes him so much
00:44:09
Speaker
I don't want to say better of a character because he's a great character in The Force Awakens. But I guess what really makes him more of a complex character instead of just, you know, he's the bad guy. It's like, well, the bad guy may not be as bad as he thinks he is or he's trying to portray he is. And he's also got some trauma. And unfortunately, trauma is relatable to the audience.
00:44:35
Speaker
Like we can all kind of, we all have insecurities and things we wish or things we wish we could live up to and maybe not on the scale of Kylo Ren, but like it's very relatable. And yeah, I really enjoy that in this movie.
00:44:49
Speaker
What's funny about that, what you just said about how like obviously we can relate to Kylo Ren, but obviously we didn't like kill our dad and shit like that. Ryan Johnson, one of my favorite tweets of all time is someone being like, oh yeah, so you're saying you're just going to make the fascist murderer relatable. And he's like, well,
00:45:10
Speaker
you relate to Luke Skywalker and you didn't blow up the Death Star and save your entire galaxy. So why can't you relate to the person that did these extremes? I just love that. Okay. Well, if we really want to take it there, how do fascist leaders get in power? They're very likable people. They get these people
00:45:31
Speaker
and make them think that they're the greatest fucking thing in the world. And that's how they get people under their spell. I guess you could say people always say Hitler was very charismatic. And we see how that went. So yeah, 100%. I think is the same thing like Snoke does with Kylo Ren like kind of puts on this act as if he's like the answer to all of Kylo Ren's worries and
00:45:55
Speaker
Oh, for sure he does. I mean, like, he's the one that Kylo runs to after the temple burns down, right? After the Praxium is destroyed. That's the first place Kylo goes. Like, he doesn't go to seek out Ren. He goes to seek out Ren because Snoke basically turns him in that position, like, you know, spins him around and puts him in that position and pushes him off, right? Yeah.
00:46:21
Speaker
100%, 100%. I love Kylo Ren in this movie. What did you think of Kylo Ren? Were you like a Kylo stan before Last Jedi? Or was it like this movie that really- After Last Jedi. After Last Jedi.
00:46:35
Speaker
I loved how much he was humanized by this movie and how much insight we got into his character and just this scene
00:46:51
Speaker
of him and Ray talking in the hut, it just felt like a miracle to me. I was like, this is such a great story. I actually remember sitting in the theater and thinking, this is amazing storytelling, while their hands are creeping towards each other.
00:47:08
Speaker
I'm like oh my gosh you know like the hero and the villain like making this connection in a moment of vulnerability like wow I love the way this complicates the sort of hero villain dynamic and you know like I really it gave me a real thrill and I was really looking forward to seeing
00:47:30
Speaker
where that continued to go. And like when, yeah, when Ray like FedExed herself to the first burner. Mascara at all, like. Mascara at all. You know, I just. Have you ever seen the meme that's like Chewbacca? Chewbacca is the dad dropping off his teenage daughter to go see some guy he doesn't really approve of, but he's just going to park outside a little bit and just kind of wait. I'm like, oh, my God, yes.
00:48:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah. And of course, obviously, like Ryan taking off the mask was such a great idea. I mean, like, but I mean, that's Ryan like he's very resourceful and he's not going to just waste four years of Juilliard like that, you know. OK, but you know what was an even better choice that Ryan made than having Kylo take off the mask? I don't know what you're going to say. Taking off his top. Then Swolo that moment in the theater.
00:48:29
Speaker
My lady garden was ready and ready to go.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah. And it was great how how Ray was like sort of peeved to like. Yeah, it was so great. I love you. Do you have to? Yeah. And I'm like, no, right. Like, what is happening moment? Enjoy the site in front of you because we know she did. But she's probably a little embarrassed about it because she was like, no, you're the you're the villain. I'm not trying to be like, oh, a girl like.
00:49:06
Speaker
Those dyad scenes are my favorite scenes in the movie. My favorite Kylo scene is the second time they connect and Rey is she's in the rain. Yeah. And yeah, I think that scene kind of perfectly summarizes exactly what Kylo is going through in this movie or kind of like what him and Rey's dynamic is, is
00:49:30
Speaker
Ray kind of, her looking at him as like a monster and the evil guy, he kind of, for lack of a better term, he kind of gets off on that. Like he loves the idea that somebody is like validating this idea that he has in his head that he's like this horrible monster. And that's exactly what happens in this scene is he's like, she's like, you are a monster. And he's like, yes, I am.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yes, but have you read the novelization? Because it kind of puts a different spin on that.
00:50:04
Speaker
I have, but I don't remember what the spin is. No, basically like that interchange is sort of where Rey starts softening on Kylo because the way that that scene is written is that she is sending out all this loathing at Kylo and he's saying, however much you hate me, I also hate me that much plus like a thousand.
00:50:35
Speaker
And she feels and when he says, yes, I am, she feels his self loathing and she feels his regret over having killed Han Solo. And that is why when they're in the hut, she is open to being vulnerable with him and open to offering him compassion because she's seen behind behind the mask, so to speak.
00:51:02
Speaker
And she understands that his motivation is not like he's he's not trying to conquer the resistance. He's trying to conquer his own inner demons, really. Yeah, that's the fight that he's engaged with. And that's also part of what
00:51:23
Speaker
fuels her rage at Luke, because once she understands what happened, then she can she builds the story in her head of, oh, this is why he always thought he was worthless.
00:51:37
Speaker
Right. And it makes sense to like why because the third time they speak, that's the one with the shirtless scene and like Ray kind of immediately like she's annoyed. She's like, do you have a call or whatever? And then she's like before she was like loathing him and like you're a monster. And now she's more like, why did you kill your father? Yeah, which that that seems also that's why I say like those conversations.
00:52:05
Speaker
is the best. And it's something that honestly, I say this, I feel like I've said this a lot on the podcast. It's something that we don't get a lot in Star Wars is two characters actually sitting down and like talking. It happens a lot in Andor, happens a lot in The Last Jedi, but it's not something that's necessarily seen in Star Wars a lot, unless it's like used for exposition purposes. But this is more like,
00:52:35
Speaker
let's sit down and actually, let's talk about what we're experiencing in our surroundings. Let's act like we're in a story here. Yeah, it's like she understands that he has reason. He has motivations for what he's doing beyond just being a bad guy. Yeah, exactly. And in that moment, that's when she was like, I can fix him.
00:53:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost exactly like what we get in Return of the Jedi when like Luke and Vader finally get to like talk once Luke kind of surrenders himself, which is exactly what Rey does. So true. So you start to understand and like sympathize with the villain. So there were so many times where I was like watching when I watched this movie yesterday and I was just like,
00:53:28
Speaker
screen recording clips because I was like, that's so good. And a lot of them was like, Adam Driver's performance like he just he just put his all and Adam and Daisy like bouncing off of each other. They have so much chemistry. They're great actors together. Like, I mean, they're both great actors and actresses separately, but together, still waiting for a romcom or something. And when Daisy posted that letter on her Instagram, it was adorable.
00:53:57
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, okay. This is the perfect segue for something that I have to say in general about Ray and Kylo in this movie.
00:54:12
Speaker
I think talking about like their chemistry and whatnot, I think it also works because of kind of how I mentioned earlier, where they're just kind of actually acting on their emotions. And we clearly get to see that because not only are they acting on their emotions, but they're being emotionally vulnerable, especially by the time they do physically come together in this movie. And I am not gonna lie, when they're in the elevator on the way up to see Snoke, when I watched this movie, like a week ago, I was like,
00:54:40
Speaker
I kind of want them to kiss. Oh, yeah. Everyone was okay. But here's the thing. I hated the kiss in the rise of Skywalker when I saw it. No, it's like, I don't even know why they're kissing. I don't think they should be together. But when I was just watching it the other week, I was like, Oh, they're kind of like
00:54:59
Speaker
There's some there's a lot of yearning in that scene. I mean, Kylo much yearning Kylo isn't looking into her eyes. He's looking at her lips. And I, I love the way like, it feels like they're almost going to and then the door opens. Yeah. But that's how it always happens.
00:55:22
Speaker
and remind me wasn't it in the last Jedi novelization too that they kind of expanded on that a little bit too that it was like Kylo was genuinely thinking of like kissing her yes he's like admiring her loveliness or something i think that was fine
00:55:39
Speaker
Love that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the other thing I wanted to say was, yeah, their very first sort of dyad connection is so great. I mean, like I've mentioned this on streams before, but you have to forgive me for repeating myself. But I love how Ray is all like, you know, and and Kyle, I was like.
00:56:00
Speaker
Why is this happening? You know, it's like he's such a nerd. You know, like she's like she's shooting at him. She's like growling at him. She's got her little teeth bared and like little feral desert thing she is. And meanwhile, he's just like, you know, he's like, I'm having thinking thoughts with my smart brain.
00:56:28
Speaker
She literally like turns and he's like, can you see me? Because I can't see you. And she's literally, yeah, she's so pissed. She's basically like, what the fuck are you trying to do? And I'm like, I don't know what's going on either.
00:56:42
Speaker
Well it gets emphasized more like when we see Rise of Skywalker that I mean it was assumed in The Last Jedi because of the scene where they're touching hands we see them like it looks like they're on Octu together but the Rise of Skywalker really solidifies the fact that they look like they're in the same place like when Rey sees Kylo she sees him standing on Octu so in her mind she's like how the how did you get here like what yeah
00:57:08
Speaker
What is this weird magic? And I mean, Kylo's doing the same thing. And you know what I love? There's like a little reference to Luke's force projection because Kylo says he's like, you're not doing this effort would kill you. Yes. He foretells that.
00:57:26
Speaker
Because he knows about that ability. That's an ability called Simul future that exists in the Jedi texts. It's like a known Jedi power. And yeah, it's been part of canon for like a long time. And Ryan just utilized it.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. The same thing with forest diet, like forest bonds between two forest users. Oh, yeah. That's also been around for a super long time. It's just like nobody ever leaves the story. Shout out Kotor. Yeah. If you look it up, they say that it can come through effort, like people can actually try to link themselves through the forest or it can develop spontaneously.
00:58:16
Speaker
Well I think, correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm pretty sure I read the Sun Wikipedia when looking up stuff about the dyad, but didn't Palpatine try to create a dyad between him and Vader and it didn't work? Yeah, because the rule of two, they changed it where the dyad, and I really like this change, the dyad is the inspiration for the rule of two. Yeah.
00:58:37
Speaker
And so the sit there always trying to create that power. And that's why it is like so a power like I fit. So I can also change your clothes. Yeah. Yes, it's so good. It's also a fashion designer.
00:58:58
Speaker
I mean, I don't blame them then because that would be really in handy. Yeah. No, I think I think the dyad was like the perfect inclusion for these characters. And I also love that they kind of I think the Last Jedi kind of alludes to this. Oh, it definitely does, because you know how Snoke, he says that he's the one that paired them together, that he's the one. And then in the end of the movie, they still have a connection even after his death. So it like, yeah.
00:59:29
Speaker
Yeah, no, it seemed pretty obvious to me in the story that that was supposed to be a lie. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's just his manipulation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Because he's doing the same thing he's always done, which is taken Kylo Ren's power and tried to manipulate it to his own end. So like any gift, any power that Kylo Ren has, Snoke is going to try and appropriate and vampirize it for himself because that's what abusers do.
00:59:55
Speaker
Yeah,
Leia's Role and Force Use
00:59:56
Speaker
100%. Poor Kylo, poor boy. I know. I want to hug him. I just have to say, I don't.
01:00:06
Speaker
I know it might be a little bit gauche to bring up something non-canon during this discussion, but one of the things, one of the portrayals that I always loved of Snoke and Kylo was there's one of my friends that wrote a fanfiction and in it, there's a chapter where Snoke is like,
01:00:28
Speaker
putting the works on Kylo. And he says to him in a G rated way. And he says to him, you'll never, he says, you'll never be loved, but you will be remembered.
01:00:45
Speaker
Oh, that's sad. And but to me, that encapsulates the relationship between the two of them. Like I think I think that that's not an unreasonable way of imagining that that Snoke established his relationship with Kylo. It's like he's like, I'm going to tell you what's what and what's what is that, you know, you will never be loved. You're unlovable. And I know this about you. And I know this is the truth. And you know, this is the truth. But you can be powerful.
01:01:13
Speaker
and you will be remembered. Yeah, damn. That's so sad. But it's, yeah, that's the unfortunate truth. Yeah, I will always say I need a whole like seven season series about Luke's Academy and Kylo's fall. And I want the whole thing. And I want it to be like a deep story that really gets into the nitty gritty of that whole story.
01:01:41
Speaker
I just I just. And also with the romance between Ben and Ty. Oh, yeah, because you know that happened. Yeah, I just did. I'm sorry. Like, I mean, and even Charles Soule said he's like the whole the whole Ben Ty thing is like based on. What's his face? Achilles, is it Achilles and Patroclus? Oh, you know, I don't know nothing about that.
01:02:11
Speaker
It sounds right. Hang on. Yes, it is. It is Achilles and Patrick and Patrick List. That's the thing. So, yeah, like somebody, I think somebody made that reference on Twitter and Charles was like, yeah, that's that's about right. And and I mean, and I've argued before, like, I think that that's how Ben was able to best run.
01:02:36
Speaker
I think that it was his rage and his grief at Ty's death that pushed him over the top. Because think about it, Ren had what, like 40 years more of combat experience than Ben Solo did? Right.
01:02:52
Speaker
You know, and like, I mean, he was, he was outmatched like Ben Solo was outmatched like combat wise, like just in terms of skill. Um, you know, it's just that power then just like, yeah, that's what I think it was. I think it was his grief at losing tie at the hands of Ren that powered him to be able to defeat him in combat.
01:03:15
Speaker
I mean we know like Jedi survivor that's one of the powers is embrace the dark side and then all of a sudden you can kill everybody so that's all small period of time that's what Kylo did he pressed he pressed R3 and L3
01:03:38
Speaker
All right, speaking of Kylo, let's talk about his mommy, General Leia Organa. I love Leia. That transition.
01:03:47
Speaker
I love Leia, but Leia in this movie, I love that she gets to be like a queen, like she's so elegant in this movie, you know, just like her outfits, amazing, love her. You know, this movie, they kind of, she's in a coma for a lot of the movie, but I feel like she still gets to be the heart of this movie and, you know,
01:04:15
Speaker
One thing I really appreciate is that, you know, when Carrie passed away in 2016, the year before Last Jedi came out, the thought process that
01:04:28
Speaker
you know, people thought was like, oh, they're going to edit the movie to make this Leia's last movie. I really appreciate that. Ryan Johnson didn't do that and kept her role as it was. He even says there's like no deleted scenes of Carrie from this movie. Like he like what she filmed is what's in the movie. And, you know, her her role is
01:04:53
Speaker
amazing and this is also the first time well not the first time that we see like she's force sensitive like obviously we've seen her connect with Luke and such but this is like the first time we see her using the force in more of a like traditional sense on screen and
01:05:11
Speaker
I don't care. I'll defend Mary Poppins Leia till I die. I think it was not only a beautiful scene, but I think it just was perfect for Leia. I don't I don't know what people's issue with the scene is really. I never that's one thing like I've never been able to to grasp or see from someone else's perspective.
01:05:33
Speaker
I don't know if y'all felt this way, but at least when I was watching the movie, going into it, knowing that Carrie had passed, when the ship gets blown up, and she shoots out the window of the command deck and everything, I was like, oh my god, are they killing her off already at the beginning of the movie? I was like, I cannot handle this emotionally.
01:05:55
Speaker
I think that also helped me love that scene of her floating through space even more and why it was such, like I loved it, but it also made it so much more emotional because I mean, she's floating through space. She's kind of unconscious, but she looks beautiful. You see like the crystals start to form around her body. Like it's a gorgeous scene. And then like you said, Austin, we also get to see her use the force, like truly a feat.
01:06:25
Speaker
in the force for the first time. And I think the way I thought about it and there may be reasoning behind it, I don't know. But the way I always thought about it is I was like, it's just showing her raw power and like her subconscious is kind of what helped her get through that and get back to the ship and survive just because she is a Skywalker. That she's that's her power.
01:06:50
Speaker
That's, that's exactly how I always saw it too, is that it's like Leia as a character, she's always, you know, she's more of a political figure than she ever will be of like a Jedi or a forces or anything like that. But for Leia, she still holds on to like, you know,
01:07:07
Speaker
Obviously, she doesn't fuck with the fact that she's related to Darth Vader, but she still kind of embraces the fact that, you know, she's a Skywalker, she's related to Luke, you know, her mother wasn't a bad person, like, you know, things like that. She embraces that side. And I think that it kind of shows that it was an instinctual thing for Leia to use the force. Exactly. It was like a primal instinct almost that just kind of kicked in. Yeah, 100 percent. So I love that scene. And what did you think of of Mary Poppins Leia?
01:07:37
Speaker
I loved it because you know what? She doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. Period. Period. You know, I was like, Ryan had every right to do that because this is one of the originals. It's Carrie fucking Fisher. Put some respect on her. You know, like how how how fucking dare you? How fucking dare you? There's nothing in this galaxy that Leia Organa cannot do. Aside from forgive her father.
01:08:09
Speaker
I agree. I, I never, like I said, I never really understood people's issue with it. Like I know people say it like looks ridiculous, but you know, I don't know. Put your looking eyes in your face.
01:08:25
Speaker
And, you know, I love Ryan's foreshadowing in this movie. And I don't know if you guys noticed, but when she's flying through to the resistance ship, she's flying through the wreckage. There's a hologram of Snoke's Star Destroyer. What's it called? It's not the Dreadnought. Oh, it's the Supremacy? The Supremacy. It's the Supremacy. Because that's the one that the Raddus just destroys.
01:08:50
Speaker
Yes, and Leia flies right through it. And it's foreshadowing of Holdo's maneuver. Yeah. I love everybody's reaction in the ship too. They're like, oh my god, what is the general doing is they're like walking her blow through space. And I don't remember exactly who says it, but they're basically just like, whatever, let's make sure we open the door for her. Like, stop watching her. Let's get her in here. Yeah. That's so great.
01:09:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think too, this is something Ryan Johnson pointed out, but you know, I think a lot of it comes down to it's just like, Oh my God, a woman's using the force. Like how dare she, there wasn't a 10 hour training montage before she did that. Um, but Ryan Johnson points out that it's not like.
01:09:34
Speaker
people look at this for some reason as if it was like some huge feat that it was like on the same scale as like pulling a star destroyer out of the sky or some shit like she's literally just she's in a zero gravity she's in space okay and she's literally just pulling herself it's not like it's not like she's doing something insane but like em said even if she was doing something insane
01:09:59
Speaker
There's nothing she can't do. What tell me why you think it's a big feat, Scotty? I don't know. It just feels like one to me. It feels like it's just like something I don't think any just anybody could fall into space, kind of go unconscious and then pull their way back to safety personally. That's why I think it's a big feat. And I'm like, if when doesn't isn't there? Oh, I guess if there's no gravity, you can't get crushed.
01:10:29
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, it's it's I think it's just I think visually, it's a powerful scene. And that's why it feels like some big, glorious feat to me. But yeah, I mean,
01:10:43
Speaker
I don't know. I love it. I mean, like, I guess like for for like a regular person that's not like in tune with the force. Yeah, I'm sure that that would be like a big feat. But I feel like I don't know. I feel like it's just she's just pulling herself and she's literally she's weightless in space. So it's like. Well, what do you think? You got a you're the determining factor. Yeah, what's the big feat or not? The power scaling on Leia Organa.
01:11:11
Speaker
I think it makes sense that it's just something that she would do instinctively to save herself. Yeah. I think it makes sense. Yeah.
01:11:20
Speaker
That sounds like a good middle ground answer between what we both said. I love it. Do you think that Kylo thinks that she's dead when he flies away seeing that the other pilot blew the bridge? Or do you think he can sense? Yeah, exactly. He wouldn't do it. I mean, he blew up Poe's stupid ass.
01:11:46
Speaker
doesn't he doesn't he shoot down the the ships that ultimately shot down the I think he does. Yeah. Yeah. Because I that's what I always thought I always thought he did too. Yeah. Yeah. He was pissed about it. So he he shot his own ships. Yeah. He was killed his own men because they were like, I mean, my mom. Honestly, I feel like he is a bit of a mama's boy or at least he was.
01:12:17
Speaker
I think so too. I think that or at the very least he wanted to be like I don't know if he was ever like or if he was given the opportunity much because one of the points is like his parents were a little absent because they kind of they kind of had to be there, you know. Yeah. He almost got killed by a kitchen droid. Yeah. I love last shot.
01:12:40
Speaker
And immediately too, like him just having the force, his mother having the force, they're obviously going to be connected on a different level too. Yeah. Well, I mean, he senses her, right? Like you see that on his face. They connect. Yeah, they connect. Yeah. But I wonder if, I wonder if he can tell she's still alive after and if he feels relieved.
01:13:03
Speaker
I wonder because like I think I don't know if y'all think this I do think she kind of goes unconscious for a bit like her eyes are closed like she's literally floating doing nothing so I wonder if maybe he did kind of feel her light go out for a moment and who knows if he stuck around long enough or paid attention long enough to you know recognize that she came down.
01:13:25
Speaker
I will say I think actually that he did think that she died because when Rey's like, the fleet, there's still time to save the fleet, order them to stop firing. I think that he, I don't think he would have been dismissive of that if he knew that his mom was still out there. That's a good point. So I don't know.
01:13:48
Speaker
But yeah, I definitely think Kylo is a mama's boy. And I will always be sad that we never got to see their reunion. Oh, my God, I know. Because I. Oh, my gosh. Some of my favorite fan art, like right after Rise of Skywalker was fan art of like Leia and Ben hugging. Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:09
Speaker
I don't think that this was the case or the intention, but I still really like, in my headcanon, Han Solo speaking to Ben, I'm pretty sure that the actual explanation is it's like his memory, but I like to think that it was like Leia representing herself as Han Solo. That's what Brian and Barry says too.
01:14:34
Speaker
Brian says that it was Leia's spirit, but manifested as Han because she as a mother knew that that was what Ben needed to see. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Love that so much. All right.
01:14:48
Speaker
Kanto bite, everybody's favorite B plot.
Kanto Bight's Subplot Significance
01:14:52
Speaker
OK, I love Kanto bite. I love the way that it looks. I think it's a really fun place that I want to go back to. I mean, I will say, did we necessarily need as much of that B plot? No. Do I think it's completely unnecessary? No, because I do like a lot of Kanto bite.
01:15:15
Speaker
My biggest thing with it is I do kind of wish it did feel a little more tied into the story where it does feel like Rose and Finn are off on this completely separate mission. Almost like, you know, we get a three episode arc of a show at the beginning. And then there's this weird middle episode that's like kind of unrelated and off from everything else on its own and isolated. And then we get back to like the main like plot.
01:15:44
Speaker
But I still really enjoy it. I don't get something to say about that. Yeah, please do. Sorry. Are you finished your thought, though? Just that in general, I don't get why people hate it so much. I think it's completely related. Maybe not. Maybe not necessarily like
01:16:11
Speaker
Not like, OK, so in a way, like the reason why I think it it is important to have this in the Star Wars movie is because it gives you a larger picture of what is like the rules of the world we live in.
01:16:28
Speaker
This is the world that these Star Wars characters are operating in. I think this happens a lot of the time with other properties in Star Wars, like shows and other films that we've had, where it really zeros in very specifically on the specific circumstances of the characters, because they're living extraordinary circumstances for sure. I love how this movie
01:16:54
Speaker
gives you a view into the lives of people who are not force users and who are not part of a political left-wing terrorist movement. I feel like it just kind of builds on the whole
01:17:15
Speaker
of the world of the film like showing how like you know you have like these wealthy people who are playing both sides like they don't care who wins the war you know because either way they're they're going to get paid then you have DJ who is like well you have to just be out for yourself because no one else is going to take care of you like no one is coming to rescue you no one is coming to help you
01:17:37
Speaker
You know, and it's I think it's a really poignant reminder when the point of so many of these Star Wars movies has been like, yeah, you know, if you're someone dressed in all white in peril, someone is coming to rescue you.
01:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think that 100% fits into the story and thematically too, I think it really ties back to the whole idea of
01:18:08
Speaker
failing and embracing that failure and doing something with it. Um, a big criticism of like the Kanto bite subplot is that it goes on for a long time and that it feels like it doesn't really amount to anything in the story because by the time they get off Kanto bite, it's like really the only thing they needed was DJ the code breaker. And so sure. You didn't need to see like,
01:18:34
Speaker
this whole drawn out journey, but I think you did because it shows in the movie, it shows the audience that they
01:18:42
Speaker
failed that they failed at their mission when it ultimately like comes down to, you know, DJ betraying them. And like they, it's, it's pointless because it's meant, it's meant to be pointless. Like it's meant to show you like, no, like they put in all that work. They, they had this whole plan. Poe was going against Holdo to do it, you know, and it failed.
01:19:07
Speaker
And very easily they could have just been like, well, it failed. I'm done. Like, let's move on. But it shows that they were willing to keep going no matter what, even when the ship was torn in fucking half. Rose and Finn still like get their asses up. Finn goes and kills Captain Phasma and they get out of there.
01:19:29
Speaker
And it shows there. And it's like you keep fighting, you have to keep fighting. And that characteristic of resilience is very important, especially considering the tone of the ending, of how many people have been lost, and the fact that Leia has lost this lifelong friend
01:19:51
Speaker
You know, and there's been so much there's so much writing against, you know, and no one came to help them on crate, you know, and so there's so much writing against them. But this is why they're going to keep going, because that's just what they do. Yeah.
01:20:10
Speaker
I think a better way to describe what I meant, because I do agree. I think Canto by in general, the the entire sequence, regardless of how long it is, I do think it's important to the story. I personally just don't like how isolated it feels from everything else going on. I guess visually would be a better way to put it.
Finn's Arc and Potential Force Sensitivity
01:20:34
Speaker
And I guess that's kind of other people's complaints in the sense that it's like, oh, you know, we never get to see like the main group together in these movies up until the rise of Skywalker, like they don't go on a mission together. I think that's the only
01:20:50
Speaker
real complaint I have about the canto bite sequence is Finn and Rose are off kind of doing their own thing that's still a part of the main mission because they're trying to, you know, eventually get back to continue, you know, the plot that the resistance is going through with their ship. But yeah, I just don't like how it feels so separated. And I guess I guess visually is the way I need to say it. It just feels so they're over here doing their own thing, even though it's related to the main thing.
01:21:20
Speaker
OK, listen, Scotty, we had to figure out some way of shoehorning Joseph Gordon Levitt into this movie. I mean, all those shuttle parkers that can't park their shuttle here.
01:21:35
Speaker
And I just go on it towards the casino. I do love Joseph Gordon Lovett though. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. I, I don't know. I, I definitely go to mean that it feels isolated, but I also just, I feel like there was, I feel like that was a big like point of the whole thing is that it's supposed to feel kind of isolated and that the journey Finn's going through. Again, I think that this is kind of the,
01:22:04
Speaker
It's kind of the consequences of The Force Awakens for lack of a better term. It's just one of those things like Luke where it feels like Luke, there wasn't a lot of thought put into the fact that he was absent and why he would be absent from his family dying. It feels like there wasn't a lot of thought behind splitting Rey and Finn up by the end of The Force Awakens because
01:22:31
Speaker
I don't think that there would have been any way for Finn to actually get back with Rey. Because ideally, after the Force Awakens, what I would have liked to see is if Finn didn't get
01:22:46
Speaker
knocked out, he would go to Octu with Rey and kind of go on this Jedi journey with her. But I think that the Force Awakens kind of rules that out because Rey is going to the most unfindable place in the galaxy. And so it's like, that wouldn't make much sense for Finn to just wake up and then he's there in the most unfindable place in the galaxy. And it's something that the Force Awakens
01:23:10
Speaker
there's not a lot of thought behind, does Finn even want to fight in the Resistance? Why would, you know, obviously he hates the First Order and would want to fight against them, but for someone who was raised to be a fighter, is that something that, like, I don't, I wouldn't blame Finn if he was like, I'm out, like, I just want to live peacefully because I feel like it's a very human thing to do, but he learns that that's not right.
01:23:40
Speaker
That's what he tries to do at the beginning. That's exactly what I'm saying is that that's why this movie kind of has to do that because it's not something that was really addressed with The Force Awakens. It was just kind of like.
01:23:50
Speaker
Well, he's just ready to fight. It doesn't really matter how he feels about that as a human. He needs to be a vessel to fight. I think that's why I really like his role in The Last Jedi. I definitely get people's concerns and stuff about if he'll see sidelined. Again, I feel like it's just a big issue with The Force Awakens. I feel like Finn got sidelined the second that he got knocked out.
01:24:17
Speaker
in The Force Awakens and then Rey took the saber. I feel like that's when Finn got sidelined. I feel like it's the fault of the marketing of Force Awakens that
01:24:28
Speaker
made him seem like the Jedi and a lot of black people were talking about how they felt really betrayed by what happened with Finn's role. And I just really feel like the last Jedi. I think John Boyega even commented on that too and brought that up in interviews post like the sequel trilogy is that kind of bait and switch is how he put it. And yeah, it's I mean, even me, not a person of color, but also just really liked Finn. I was like,
01:24:57
Speaker
Oh, he's kind of doing his own thing. But this is why I think that there should have been a time jump between movies, but that's a whole nother discussion. Yeah. Well, again, Force Awakens, because would you have been okay with not seeing what happened next with Luke and Rey? Yep. I'd love to just catch up with them in the middle of training. But then again, I'm like, I would have been pissed. I'm sorry.
01:25:23
Speaker
Well, like I said, it's a whole other discussion. Yeah, for sure. That's the thing is we could discuss all these characters for a million years. Get Finn a Disney Plus show. A hundred percent. A thousand. Yeah, I love that. Finn Jedi training.
01:25:44
Speaker
Yeah, I'm hopeful we'll see him in the new Jedi Order movie, if not his own show. Like, let's give him the arc he deserves. I want tons of Finn content. I love Finn, and I want more Finn. So this actually kind of brings up something that I thought about as I was kind of preparing for our episode to talk about this movie. Part of me wonders why, so we get Broom Boy and Kanto Bite,
01:26:11
Speaker
and we see you know there's this kid he's got the force cool why couldn't we have another fin force hit instead instead of broom boy because i think that broom boy is meant to
01:26:24
Speaker
Brimboy represents a lot of the themes of this movie. I almost feel like, I've said this before, I almost feel like the ending of the movie isn't like an actual scene that actually happens. It's more just more meant to represent
01:26:43
Speaker
The story of Luke Skywalker and the Resistance is inspiring people around the galaxy and there's always hope out there. The light is never going to die, even if the Jedi dies, as Luke says. Just because the Jedi die doesn't mean the light dies.
01:27:07
Speaker
So I feel like in that sense, Broom Boy represents quite a lot of the themes in the movie. But I get what you mean. I would have liked to see more force sensitive Finn too. I think that that's something that Ryan Johnson didn't like. He wasn't interested in a force sensitive Finn.
01:27:31
Speaker
Because I guess after the force awakens, it really could have gone either way. Like there's no, I mean, obviously he uses the lightsaber, but is there really any like other indications that he's force sensitive? Like obviously it would make sense that the story would follow through and he would be force sensitive. Well, there's the argument of, you know, he kind of
01:27:54
Speaker
gets out of his conditioning at the beginning of the movie where he doesn't he doesn't take aim and like shoot at the civilians and stuff and people say that that was a part of the force allowing him to kind of get out of that conditioning and question what was going on around him. They people say the same thing about Jana and why, you know, her group decided they weren't going to fight anymore, too, is because it was a feeling. And that's something that Finn and Jana both kind of relate on, which yeah, that happens in the last movie. But I guess
01:28:24
Speaker
They say that's yeah, that's what Finn was thinking in the feeling. So I respect it. Yeah.
Rose's Character and Representation
01:28:34
Speaker
Obviously, another great character that's part of the whole Kanto Bites subplot is Rose. I love Rose. You know, that was like one of the first complaints I actually heard about the Last of the Jedi was like, she doesn't
01:28:49
Speaker
She doesn't seem like she's a character from a Star Wars movie, but Rose is a character to me. And this might be a hot take. I think she represents Star Wars. Like, I think that Rose is literally meant to embody Star Wars as if like Star Wars is a person in, you know, and also meant to like kind of be a stand in for like us as Star Wars fans, you know, like.
01:29:13
Speaker
A big part of this that we're talking about is the pressure that's kind of put on heroes, the pressure that was put on Luke, the pressure that was put on Ben Solo. That same pressure is put on Finn when Rose is like, you're the Finn. The Finn, like, you are a hero, what you did on Starkiller Base, like, that, I love that scene because Rose is like totally fangirling and she's like, yo, look, oh my God, I love you Finn.
01:29:37
Speaker
It's a great scene because it shows like Finn struggle and how he feels. And so I really liked that scene. But Rose, her character, she's a mechanic. She works behind pipes all day and she's the next hero of the resistance. And is that not Star Wars? A farm boy gets to be the hero. You know, like a slave from Tatooine gets to be the hero.
01:30:07
Speaker
It perfectly embodies that and then in the end with her line where it's like it's not about fighting what you hate but saving what you love, it's another big theme. There's a quote, it's in Once Upon a Galaxy, a journal of the making of The Empire Strikes Back and Irving Kirschner, he says,
01:30:25
Speaker
Well, for example, Princess Leia's rebel forces will not do anything in order to win. They will not sacrifice lives. They do not descend to the level of the enemy. That's the difference between the rebels and the Empire. It's possible to fight because you love, not just because you hate. That's the director of Empire Strikes Back in 1983,
01:30:47
Speaker
bringing up this idea that, you know, what Finn was doing in that scene of like heading towards the the cannon, we can say you're an argue about what have actually been successful. Personally, I don't think he would have done shit. I think he would have just died and that would have been it. But I think the mindset that he's going through there, he's not he's not doing it because he like.
01:31:11
Speaker
He's doing it out of hate because he hates the First Order. He wants to destroy them. He's not doing it because it's going to be better for the galaxy or this is going to help the resistance win or anything like that. And that's why I feel like that line really embodies
01:31:27
Speaker
Star Wars and, you know, like kind of really shows that theme that's been prevalent throughout all of Star Wars, you know, like one thing Harrison Ford, he always wanted Han Solo to die, to be sacrificed. George Lucas was always like, no, because for George Lucas, that's not his story. The good guys aren't going to stoop to the level of the bad guys. Like Irvin Kushner says, we're not going to sacrifice lives to, you know, make this happen. And I think that
01:31:57
Speaker
Rose is really holding up a huge theme of the rebellion. So to me, Rose is Star Wars. I love that. What a beautiful tribute to a beautiful character. Yes. Rose is so wonderful. I love her.
01:32:17
Speaker
I love, I mean, obviously everything that you just said, but also her, like she brings in softness. I mean, like look at her, like her body, her facial expressions, her clothes, her hair, you know, like she brings, it's great because like you said, like she represents Star Wars, but she brings in these traits that make it inclusive.
01:32:45
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I think that's a big reason. This is kind of what is remaking the sequel to be. Another thing that I wanted to just super quickly mention about the Kento Bite segment was it also brought timeliness to the sequel trilogy, which is a quality the previous Star Wars movies always had. They always felt like they had some kind of relevance politically.
01:33:14
Speaker
And this is sort of Star Wars for, I mean, not to play into the Phantom Menaces game or whatever, but like this is what brought like the SJW, you know, like the Star Wars into the SJW era, you know, and tied it to things that are like presently relevant. And I think that it is vital to bring that representation into Star Wars.
01:33:38
Speaker
This is just such a loveable character because like she does she encompasses that heroism and the optimism of star wars but with also femininity and you know also being portrayed by a woman of color.
01:33:55
Speaker
Yeah, I love Rose too. I do enjoy her a lot. And I I could sit and say so many things about her, but it would just be echoing what Austin was saying about like she is basically us in the galaxy. We're seeing the galaxy through her eyes. And I think she's a great character. I don't understand the people that say she's not Star Wars.
01:34:20
Speaker
I feel like Rose, like, you know, one of the things that people really love about Andor is that it's very grounded. You get to see like the real people, you know, kind of what Em says about like Canto Bite, like you get to
01:34:34
Speaker
see what this fight that we're focusing on with the main characters, how that actually affects the galaxy around them. And Rose is a character like she's not someone we typically get to focus on. And I think the fact that we do get to focus on her, it brings a lot to Star Wars. I will always be so pissed that she just basically got written out the next one. But.
01:35:01
Speaker
That was shitty, but once again, we could go on about that forever. Yeah. That's a whole nother episode. Um, but yeah, I don't know. Kelly Marie Tran is a Ray low.
01:35:13
Speaker
Yes. Love that. Yes she is. I'll never forget like all her videos. Um, first of all, she took over like the Star Wars Instagram the day of the last Jedi premiere and she was like showing like her and her friends, like getting ready for the premiere. They're just like all like so excited for her because this was like her breakout role. Like this was the, this was her first big movie and
01:35:38
Speaker
you know, it's just her energy. Like, I remember all the pictures of her, like, with all the merch and stuff. Like, she just was so bubbly, so happy to be part of it. And too, you know, what's so funny about Kelly Marie Tran is that after The Last Jedi came out, she had a fake
01:35:59
Speaker
a fan account and she was like part of like the Reylo fandom or like in a lot of the same spaces from like a fake fan account and nobody knows nobody knows who it was or which account it was but there's someone out there I always love to think about that I'm like I was probably
01:36:16
Speaker
You know, some of us are probably out there discussing Reylo with Kelly Marie Tran had no idea. So I loved that. I I hope that one day they like in the new movies, the new Jedi Order movies or, you know, Finn gets a series or something like that. We get Rose in it, if not her own. Yeah. Put her on. Yeah. I mean, Star Wars.
Poe, Holdo, and Leadership
01:36:45
Speaker
Star Wars owes Kelly Marie Tran a lot because they did not have her back when people were being racist and, you know, spreading misogyny and just all the horrible things that they brought her way to where she deactivated her social media. Yeah. So they.
01:37:03
Speaker
they need to do right by her as well. 100%, 100%. Okay, the resistance kind of like the, this is the one that ties into Kanto bite. For me, I feel like this is what makes Kanto bite feel more connected is because Po is kind of part of both storylines, you know, he's
01:37:26
Speaker
Poet in this movie, probably one of my favorite characters, you know, he's the trigger happy fly boy, as they say. And, you know, we see him from the very beginning of the movie. He's kind of. He doesn't see the bigger picture. He's kind of in the mindset of, you know, how I mentioned, like, Leah is not willing to sacrifice her people for her cause.
01:37:50
Speaker
you know po going out there and actively getting the entire bombing fleet killed just to destroy the dreadnought yeah you destroyed the dreadnought but your principles and while you're doing it it goes directly against what leah does but you know leah and po they have this connection uh you know like kind of a very mother and son type of connection which i'm sure kylo would be pissed about but uh
01:38:18
Speaker
I think that's a big reason why Leia kind of had to be taken out of this movie, because Leia, I feel like she, you know, like she slaps Poe and she's like, you dumb ass, like you got the entire bombing fleet killed. But I don't think that there would have been a course of action where Leia would have like really held him accountable. And so it like kind of shows that when she's gone,
01:38:47
Speaker
And Poe has to answer for himself what happens. And then you get the role with Holdo, who rightfully is like, I don't want to tell you what's going on. You need to sit down and stay in your place because I'm the leader here. You know, and it's kind of funny too, because I feel like Poe in the beginning, he kind of
01:39:12
Speaker
He kind of underestimates Holdo. He's like, that's Admiral Holdo, like Battle of Chiron Bell Admiral Holdo. And then one of the first things he does is tells her like, we need to get out of range or whatever, like something extremely obvious that she's already very clearly aware about as the leader. And it's just kind of like,
01:39:30
Speaker
Like he's just kind of looking at her like, you don't know what you're doing. You're kind of incompetent. And he just assumes that the entire movie. And I feel like that's a big point. Like people always hate, like, why didn't Holdo just tell him the plan? And it's like, did Poe deserve to know the plan? Like, Especially after acting up and not following orders to begin with. Right. And then knowing what he then tries to do afterwards with like the mutiny and everything.
01:39:56
Speaker
Right. I've decided, though, that after rewatching the movie recently, Holdo's kind of iconic. Oh, she's a she's a gay icon. I don't give a fuck. Oh, I love her. She's my favorite canonically queer Star Wars character. Yes. Yeah, for sure. I love Ameline Holdo. I will ride for Ameline Holdo.
01:40:17
Speaker
I loved Holdo before the movie even came out. For me, when these movies are coming out in the trailers, you see all the promo shots. There was always one character in each one that I was drawn to. For Rogue One, it was Bayes Malbus. For this movie, it was Holdo. And I actually still have the handle on Instagram, Vice Admiral Hamelin Holdo, that I got before the last shot I came out.
01:40:42
Speaker
It's just an account that sits there. Yeah, I loved Holdo. I loved her look. Because again, a lot like Rose, it's not a character that you get to traditionally see. I mean, we see Leia and Mon Mothma. They wear dresses and such. Hold on. Are you wearing a Laura Dern shirt? Yes, I am. Yes. I'm so sorry, Austin. I saw Laura Dee and I was like,
01:41:09
Speaker
We're not wearing a Laura Dern shirt. Fuck yeah, I love that. She's a great character. Like I will always appreciate Ryan Johnson for like showing these characters. Like DJ is another one that like these aren't characters we get to necessarily focus on a lot. You know, these types of characters. So I really appreciate Holdo. You know, it's funny because you just you mentioned Mon Mothma where I rudely cut you off on it.
Realism and Storytelling Techniques
01:41:39
Speaker
It's so funny that you mentioned her and you're saying we're getting to work with these characters and it's kind of like how Andor is giving us, you know, these real people. I'm like, did the Last Jedi pave the way for Andor? Because. I think. Yeah, I'm kind of seeing it. What I think happens like with Andor and the Last Jedi is that these two projects they set out to like actually take like
01:42:06
Speaker
traditional filmmaking techniques things that like because Star Wars obviously it's like its own thing it's like a Frankenstein version of like all these different genres and yeah well it had to be because like when it first started it was completely original like it was doing something that no one else was doing I mean like it's legendary how
01:42:29
Speaker
how many contributions the pioneering of Star Wars has made to the craft of special effects in filmmaking and blah, blah, blah, cinematography and all that stuff. Sorry to cut you off, I just wanted to add that. No, 100% agree. It always stood out as something different. Then the Last Jedi and Andor, they go back to some of the
01:42:58
Speaker
original filmmaking techniques that we'd see on like traditional films or like how I mentioned before, like The Last Jedi and Andor really takes time to like show conversations between characters, what these characters are feeling. I feel like a big thing in The Last Jedi. We'll kind of talk about this with Snoke. In The Last Jedi and Andor, like death is a real thing that has like real consequences that like, you know, when
01:43:27
Speaker
Characters die. They they die. Like that has actual meaning, you know, and there's their stakes by doing that, like with Holdo sacrificing herself in the way she did their stakes or like people are always upset, like Admiral Akbar, like you killed the king, like Admiral Akbar, even though he has like one scene in Return of the Jedi or mean than anything. I think that killing an iconic character
01:43:56
Speaker
like him in like a unceremonious fashion or like Snoke being killed even though he's like seems like he's being set up to be like this big bad like it shows that this is like a real thing which grounds it. I thought what's just making these people real again like they're real people they're humanized and exactly people can die unfortunately it's the thing that happens so that's just another piece of that
01:44:23
Speaker
Exactly. So yeah, I really like Holdo's role in this movie. The Resistance subplot with like, they're out of range enough to where the First Order can't do any real damage with them. I understand the critique that it's like, well, that's boring. It doesn't really make any sense, but
01:44:45
Speaker
I don't know. It's one of those things that it's like, I really appreciate the different aspects. Like nobody ever thinks about the fuel running out and that being an issue in these big intergalactic wars, but it's a thing. It's a real thing. You know, these things have to be fueled somehow. And it's just elements like that, that I feel like really grounds this movie makes it feel, you know, more personal.
01:45:14
Speaker
I mean, this may be contradictory, but I still hate it. Still the whole.
01:45:21
Speaker
first order chasing the resistance cruiser. I'm like, y'all really just sat here and did all that bullshit while everything else in the movie was going on. This was really the best maneuver. Like, I don't know it. I'm just like, this feels unrealistic. Like, would they really just sit here and chase them through space, just shooting? It's almost kind of comical. But like, it pays off when, you know, the whole new maneuver happens.
01:45:51
Speaker
But but in general, I'm like all this other stuff is going on and y'all are just slowly going through space shooting, trying to shoot the ship down when you know it's out of range and it's just barely out of range. It's like. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I think I like it because it's just something you wouldn't you wouldn't think of being in it. You wouldn't think it would be an issue to me. It's more realistic than them being in a huge intergalactic war.
01:46:19
Speaker
No, for sure. I think this is the one time where the humanization in the movie doesn't work for me, I guess. I'm fine with it, honestly. I'm fine. I'm fine with it. Well, that's true. You love the movie from the get-go. I mean, the thing is like, okay, it kind of, I mean, to me, it kind of does make sense in the sense that like, because the thing is like, it's not the entire first order that's chasing them.
01:46:45
Speaker
It's only one group of ships. I like the idea of limitations being put on technology. Obviously, they can't fire at them when they're in hyperspace. They can track them, but still, because of the nature of hyperspace, they can't try to catch up to them through hyperspace.
01:47:09
Speaker
And as long as the ships can stay ahead of them and have enough shield power to deflect their blasters or cannons or whatever, like, I don't know, it makes sense to me. It seems logical.
01:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it wouldn't make sense if it was like the entire first order. Like, yeah, like the first the entire fleet of the first order is not going to be chasing after like a handful of resistance chips. When you think about the tight timeline, it's like it's only like a certain number of ships that happen to be there and find. That's true. And kind of like Huck says to he's like, they're they're right there. Like where is once I shoot this down, like they're done. Yeah. So.
01:47:53
Speaker
It's almost like they can't resist, right? It's like it's too tempting. And it's kind of like the flip side of Poe, right? Like Poe can't resist the.
01:48:04
Speaker
the uh the draw of the like the potential of landing a really hard blow against the first order and the first order can't resist the temptation of having presumably all of the resistance in one place where they can just blow them all up exactly yeah it's got to bring up a good point too that it does um really benefits the whole hold-up maneuver and like when that happens it's like
01:48:30
Speaker
Like M says, the, the first order, like they were kind of tunnel vision there. Like they were so focused on this idea that it would just be so easy to blow them up that they don't even one little shit. Yeah. They don't even consider that, you know, there's someone in there that could just totally fuck it up for them. They don't even like, they see all these transports going off and they just don't even consider that that would be.
01:48:56
Speaker
part of the plan, they're just like, oh, the dumb ass resistance. Look at them sending out all those transports. Let's blow them up. Oh, shit. Our biggest ship is now cut in half like. And I mean, that's just another reason my holdo is so iconic and so badass. People complain about the holdo maneuver. But one, it's badass as hell. And two, it's a gorgeous shot. So it also people they're like, it doesn't fit in the cannon, though. And it's like
01:49:24
Speaker
I don't really care one, but two, it actually 100% fits into Canon. The people are always saying the whole thing about she wouldn't be able to fly through it because the whole point of hyperspace is that you're in a different dimension basically and going through.
01:49:40
Speaker
she wouldn't actually do any damage. But in the first Star Wars movie, A New Hope, Han Solo says that if they were to miscalculate their hyperspace jump, that they could crash right into a star, fly right through a star, exactly what Holdo does. And it's also, you don't just hit a button and boom, you're in light speed. It's like when you're in a car, you have to accelerate. You don't just instantly have 40 miles per hour, like you
01:50:05
Speaker
you have to build up to it. And that's exactly, Holdo just hit the ship before she actually got into the hyperspace lane. Like it's really not complicated. Yeah. And also let's not pretend that the rules about hyperspace are not malleable because you know what? I'm a bit salty because I know that there was a recent Star Wars, there was like some, we saw in Star Wars someone communicating via comm while they're in hyperspace.
01:50:34
Speaker
And I but I know that that's not supposed to be possible because I looked it up when I was writing a fake and I specifically had to have the night buzzard fall out of hyperspace so that Kylo could come hugs about why he killed his girlfriend. Oh, yeah. So it's like, why did I have to do that if people could just come when they're in hyperspace? Right.
01:51:02
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's things like people that there's so much Star Wars that you're never going to stick 100% to it. And it's one of those things where it's like, it's probably going to get explained in another story anyways, why it was able to be that way. It's the beauty of Star Wars. It's the beauty of having a transmedia franchise. Like you can have multiple avenues that, you know,
01:51:25
Speaker
You can go back and explain like, even if it wasn't in cannon, they could just like change the cannon. Like it's, it's not like, or just turn it into a turn into later on and something down the line and we'll hear, Oh, do you want to try the hold on maneuver? Like that was like a one time thing. Like I don't know if that could happen again. Just throwing in a little line like that. It just, if that makes it fit into cannon that much more. Yeah.
01:51:51
Speaker
Yeah, that one was actually interesting because it's so funny in the Rise of Skywalker. They do say that line. They're like, it's one in a million. And then at the end of Rise of Skywalker on and on Endor with like wicket and his son or I don't know if it's his daughter or just child, whatever in the sky. Someone does a holder maneuver. I didn't even realize that until like three years after the movie came out. I'm like. Someone literally flew their ship through a Star Destroyer over Endor.
01:52:20
Speaker
I did not even know there were Ewok scenes in The Rise of Skywalker. I obviously need to watch that movie again. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's just like one shot. It's just meant to be like. I remember. I don't recall at all. No recollection. That's next on the list to watch again.
01:52:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we ain't going to be talking about on this podcast anytime soon. All right. The first order is our kind of last main topic here. We got
Snoke's Role and Deceptive Appearances
01:52:50
Speaker
Snoke. We've talked a little bit about Snoke, but we also have Hux in here.
01:52:55
Speaker
Were you surprised by Snoke's role in this movie? Like compared to Force Awakens, we see him. He's kind of like 50 feet tall, like this pale ghost like figure, kind of like Palpatine. And then we see him and he's like Hugh Hefner in like a expensive robe. Like what was what was kind of your reaction to that?
01:53:17
Speaker
Oh, I thought it was perfect. I mean, it fits so well with Star Wars, like for me, like, and it's it seems so like that seems so much like what the bad guys would do, you know, like make a hollow projection. Like if they're not there, if they're not present, make a hollow projection themselves would make it like 60 times the size.
01:53:38
Speaker
of what they actually are so that they can yell at you more effectively and intimidatingly. We see that with his head hologram at the beginning of the, or towards the beginning of the film too. Just like his head screaming at Hux and dragging him along the command deck. It's great.
01:53:59
Speaker
Did you know that scene that you just mentioned with the big hologram face, the stunt double that played Hux, he actually broke his nose in that shot where he like goes down and they kept it in the movie. Oh, yeah.
01:54:13
Speaker
That's that is insane to think about that. I'm watching someone break their nose. That's his big old Martinson moment. Honestly, that's insane. I think it's really funny because I never understood the like kylux ship. But once again, going back and rewatching The Force Awakens in the last set, I recently I'm like, there is some tension between these two. Oh, yeah. And
01:54:40
Speaker
I could totally see, well, get real nasty now, I could totally see some like weird, angry, hate fucking type situation going on between the two of them. And I was like, damn, I'm really understanding this now. And it makes sense. I was like, this is so random. But watching the way that they interact, and especially in this movie, I feel like they're constantly trying to one up one another. And Hux is just like,
01:55:06
Speaker
I think it's that scene where Plux is leaving a meeting with Snoke as Kylo Ren comes in at first, and he just gives him this nasty look. He's just kind of like, you're about to get bitched out. Oh yeah, there's sibling rivalry going on between the two of them.
01:55:21
Speaker
Yeah. It's like a, it's like cat and mouse. Like it's Tom and Jerry vibes for sure. Like they're constantly chasing after each other. Yeah. That's one of my favorite things about rise of Skywalker, not to keep going back to that movie is that off screen, like.
01:55:38
Speaker
Kylo demotes General Hux, but he doesn't officially do it. General Hux is still General Hux in the Rise of Skywalker, but he's not the general of anything. He doesn't have anything that he's commanding. Pride takes his place, fills his role. I love Kylo and Hux's little cat and mouse games.
01:56:00
Speaker
Obviously, it's because they were doing a little some on the snake. So Kyle still wanted him around, even though he was demoted. I'm sure there's a thick about it. Oh, for sure. For sure. Oh, my friend, there are so many fics.
01:56:15
Speaker
Yeah, kylux. Kyluxers are horny, okay? Trust me, I have seen the artwork. I am well aware. It is some beautiful artwork as well, and it's very horny. Love the kylux. Love it. Yeah, 100%. With Snoke, I kind of mentioned this a little bit before. Oh, what happened?
01:56:42
Speaker
I'm just thinking of the artwork that I've seen and I'm just going to say I really enjoy when they play with the power dynamic of Hux being like the kind of smaller like I don't want to say the more feminine one but like take he takes on the feminine role usually but I love when they switch it up and he's like doming over the Kylo as like the sub I'm like this is so hot for no reason. That is also my favorite.
01:57:06
Speaker
with Snoke, I kind of mentioned this earlier, but I feel like, uh, the fact that he was set up or like, it's not necessarily that he was set up. It's just that he kind of fills a lot of tropes. Like he kind of seems like that Palpatine figure. So it's like, he kind of feels like he set up to be something more important. So I really liked that when he dies, it's like, yeah, he didn't matter. Like it was like,
01:57:32
Speaker
whatever like you you as the audience set yourself up to kind of think that he was something more uh because in reality he's just like there like i think that his role in the movie was to be or his role in this story was to be
01:57:48
Speaker
the abusive figure to Kylo Ren and I think that it was important that Kylo Ren killed him. I really like looking into the reasons why Kylo killed Snoke. Obviously he does it to get away from his abusive figure and Rey kind of helps him realize there's more to that.
01:58:08
Speaker
I also think that Kylo thought that by doing that, he was going to convince Rey like, yeah, you can join me now. Yes, for sure. He was created in conditions under which she would join him. Yes.
01:58:24
Speaker
Yeah. And also, but also like even just in the smaller, in a smaller like sort of scale, like to just sort of bring it down to like the micro level. Like in that moment, Snoke, it basically forces Kylo to choose Rey or him.
01:58:42
Speaker
Yeah, true. Mm hmm. You know, like that has to be at the forefront of Kylo's mind. So he's choosing Snoke like I mean, he's choosing right. But he's choosing to get choosing his girl. Yeah. This is my Reylo. It now makes sense to me like.
01:58:59
Speaker
Oh, 100 percent. Like it's yeah, it's like the prince choosing his princess like. Yeah, like and this is it's such and it's such a delicious like this is a very classical story. Be like it's Shakespearean. It's like, you know, this powerful figure who's controlled Kylo his whole life.
01:59:19
Speaker
Like there's the one thing, there's the sort of one little like gap in the armor. The one thing that he didn't account for, which was that Rey was like someone who actually had compassion for Kylo and understood that he was more than just, you know, a villain in a mask.
01:59:40
Speaker
would sort of worm their way into his heart, you know? So it's like, it's like Snoke, Snoke can't comprehend that, like that's his blind spot. And so, you know, when the moment comes for, you know, like when, like Snoke ordering, like if Snoke had never ordered Kylo to kill Rey, that moment may never have come.
02:00:05
Speaker
You know, he might like Snoke might have lived to see another day like he signed his own death work when he did that.
02:00:12
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I think it really ties back into the whole theme of like failure. And, you know, these characters like Snoke and Kylo not learning from the past, you know, they kind of just want to destroy it. So they're not learning by erasing like the histories like Snoke, you know, especially now that we know like he was a lot more connected to Palpatine than we originally thought, like he should have known
02:00:40
Speaker
better that like he would have like his apprentice would have killed him and resented him and you know something like this would have happened where someone comes in and changes the heart of your apprentice to the point where they kill
Learning from Failure in Star Wars
02:00:54
Speaker
you. It's exactly what happens with Vader and Palpatine but he doesn't learn from the past. He doesn't take into account what's happened before
02:01:03
Speaker
And it kind of puts him in this position where it's like, yeah, you dumb ass. Like he's, he's sitting there. He's like, he's, he's like so full of himself. He's like, yes, I see him turning the lightsaber. And then he gets stabbed. Like, you know, you know, it's funny about that too, because now that we know he was so connected to Palpatine, that's Palpatine's mistake too. Yeah.
02:01:26
Speaker
They don't learn. Not that I'm trying to justify Palpatine and the Red Skywalker, but it does make it make sense. The connectivity is there. I'm making the connections.
02:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly why it's so crazy to me when people are like, the lesson of the last Jedi is let the past die. It's like these things explicitly tell you no, like, especially like, it's a big thing. It's a big conversation in the real world, like, you know,
02:02:00
Speaker
trying to ban books. You're erasing the history so that people can't learn from history, learn from those mistakes. That's what I really love about The Last Jedi, showing all the way these different characters deal with their failure and what they can do in the future. And it really shows the difference between the heroes and the villains here because
02:02:19
Speaker
at the end of this movie, Kylo doesn't really learn anything. He's now put in the worst place that he's been in his life. And Leia on the opposite side of things is like she's also in a terrible place. She lost her husband, lost her longtime friends. Now
02:02:40
Speaker
She's going to learn from those mistakes and build. She says we have everything we need to build up right from here. And so I really like about this movie. It shows the difference between the thought processes and it gives you a message to take home and think about.
02:03:00
Speaker
you know, how can you embrace the past, learn from your mistakes? I mean, it's an explicit theme in here. Like I'm pretty sure Yoda is the one that actually like straight up says it. Like you are what they grow beyond, like, you know. Sometimes I think when people say that, you know, this lesson of this movie is let the past die, I think it's them getting more meta because I think in a way that's them saying,
02:03:28
Speaker
we got the message that this is not your father's Star Wars. Right. You know, we got the message that this isn't that this is a new this is new Star Wars. Like we're moving ahead now. There's progress happening. You know, so sometimes I wonder if that's what people really mean. It's like, you know, Star Wars looked us in the face and said, no more nostalgia for you. You know,
02:03:57
Speaker
They took Kylo's line in the movie of Let the Past Die as a dig, a personal dig at them. They're like, oh my God. It's like now Star Wars is feminist and it has people of color and act.
02:04:14
Speaker
And the men aren't allowed to be heroes. It's like... That's right. Look at the ending. When a man does manly things, like stand up against a shrewish woman, he's gonna get slapped in the face like a little bitch.
02:04:32
Speaker
And they make the men sexy in this movie. I talked about Ben Silla, we see him with his shirt off. Yeah, it's like good. Let's sexualize the man for a change. Like I said, the female gays, this movie is through the female gays like gap.
02:04:49
Speaker
It's a nice change of pace from- Yeah. Well, and the funny thing is, is that doesn't that technically fit the brief in a way? It seems to me that Ryan, when he was told that the main character or the protagonist of this movie is going to be a female character,
02:05:11
Speaker
Well, then, yeah, you do a movie with the female gays, you know, just like and that's the flip side of how the original Star Wars movies, you know, the main character was Luke. He was the hero. And so we had a very sort of masculine coded hero's journey.
02:05:29
Speaker
So to me, it feels like Brian was just like, okay, this is the assignment. Like it's the logical way forward. Because I think that that's something to like with a lot of movies nowadays, like a lot of studios, their thought process is like, well, Hunger Games did well. And you know, like Force Awakens did well with these like,
02:05:52
Speaker
you know, female heroes, why don't we just do that? But then they kind of just like make the main lead character a man in woman's clothing. Like it's like, you're not really, you know, digging into like the female experience or like things that would, you know, actually attract people who can relate to this character in that sense, you know.
02:06:17
Speaker
And so that's why I really, I really appreciate this movie, you know, and I think that that's a big reason why so many, you know, men walk out of this and they're like, oh, like Ray's overpowered. It doesn't make sense. It's like, is Ray any more overpowered than Luke or Anakin? I really don't think so. I think that it's just that her power is shown more through the female gaze and like would more relate to people, more feminine people. Like Scotty said, like,
02:06:47
Speaker
for me like for them when they first watched it identifying as a cis man it was a different perspective than the non-binary perspective like i went through the same thing like when i said the first time i watched the last jedi i was just a teenage boy i was like i can't wait for luke to fight a 50 foot snow like it's gonna be the greatest fight of all time but you know now i look at it through a much more
02:07:17
Speaker
The Last Jedi made me a better person. And that's my thesis of this podcast. And I have to say that I would not be where I am with this movie if it were not for so many conversations listening to you talk about this movie. And like during the pink milk days of making me kind of reconsider some of the things I thought about these movies. Because like I said, a lot of when these movies were coming out, I was watching the leaks and the rumors and
02:07:45
Speaker
You know, I was watching, well, I was only watching cis men talk about Star Wars on YouTube. And we've been talking this whole time about a lot of cis men don't like this movie and don't get it. And, you know, hearing you talk about why things make sense, why things are done the way that they're done,
02:08:07
Speaker
just good things about the movie really made me be like, maybe I should reconsider my opinion on these movies and kind of watch them like we talked about at the beginning of the conversation without these set expectations that we've kind of created for ourselves and take it for what it is and find things that we do appreciate in it for the story it is telling.
02:08:32
Speaker
So thank you. 100%. What a beautiful gift to hear that from you. Thank you so much, Scotty. I'm so appreciative. Of course. No, truly. Because the thing is, when you do something like a YouTube show or a podcast, and you're just yelling your opinions out into the universe, generally it's seeking attention.
02:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's not often that you get to hear any feedback, much less feedback that is so positive and so just meaningful to know that things that I've said might have influenced the way that anybody thought about anything. I mean, much less someone is important to me as you and about something that means so much to me as this beautiful Star Wars movie.
02:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, like when I say I thank you, I mean that so genuinely and honestly, what it comes down to is I love the thing that I love, which is Star Wars even more because I have found things to appreciate and something that I was kind of writing off before.
02:09:42
Speaker
So it's great. Everybody needs to go rewatch these movies with, you know, no expectations. Go in, just watch it and take in what is happening in the stories that it's telling and then formulate an opinion on it. And the thing is, you know what? If you want to tell your own Star Wars story, just get an AO3 profile. Period.
02:10:06
Speaker
Seriously, honestly, the world of fan creation, and even if you're not a writer, do something animated, make some fan art, make a collage. Just any kind of art you want to do, or become a content creator of your own. Launch a podcast.
02:10:24
Speaker
You know, do like even just like reels like just do reels on TikTok or YouTube, you know, like, you know, anybody like this is the beautiful thing about fan creation is that the stories belong to everybody. And as long as you're not making any money off of them, it's OK to make your own story. Yeah, exactly. Totally agree. And I think that's a big reason why we wanted to have you on to discuss The Last Jedi, like
02:10:54
Speaker
as Scotty said, you bring such an interesting perspective, and you enforce the idea that Star Wars is for everybody. And so I really appreciate that. And I've told Scotty this before. I've said this on the podcast. I think it's great. The best part of having guests on these episodes is that we get to hear other people's opinions and other people's perspectives. Scotty and I, together us two, we can only bring so much as
02:11:21
Speaker
queer white people. We don't understand the female experience.
02:11:30
Speaker
other other outlets that people can explore through Star Wars. And so it's really nice to get other people's perspectives. I say that after we just disagree or agreed on the entire movie for two and a half hours. What an honor it's been to be able to talk about this movie with the both of you. So thank you so much for sharing your online space with me. It's always appreciated.
02:11:59
Speaker
of course thank you thank you for joining us yes thank you so much and thank you everybody who came along this journey with us and listened to us talk about the last jedi for this long may the force be with you always and goodbye may the force be with you