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205- Aren't sheep really destructive? (and other myths)
26 Plays1 hour ago
In our third visit to East Lothian, this episodes features an in-depth interview with Julie about the four sheep in her life, talking about what it takes to look after sheep in a companionship setup (rather than an exploitative one), as well as discussing some of the misconceptions and myths that surround these wonderful peaceful creatures.
For the first two episodes in this series, head back to episodes 50 and 101.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Nuala, Iris, Kendric, Rona, Julie, Anthony & Mark
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Misconceptions about Veganism
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, it has been nine long months and we are all well overdue. a sheepy update from East Lothian. I am Anthony and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm joined by Mark, but of course I'm also joined by Julie.
00:00:15
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the...
00:00:42
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:58
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city.
Welcome and Past Episodes
00:01:00
Speaker
I don't have laser vision. Hi everyone, this is Mark here. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for being here. Hello everybody, Julie here. Welcome to Vegan Talk.
00:01:12
Speaker
This is part of the show where we have a chat about something in a bit more detail. And a for other episodes that where we've had these chats, have a wee look in your podcast feed and you'll find all the ah previous episodes with different topics that we've discussed.
00:01:32
Speaker
Indeed. And today's topic, we have had two previous discussions about episode 50 and episode 101. The reason being, we have been hearing all about the sheep that are in Julie's lives. If you've not come across that before, or you've not heard those specific episodes, we really recommend you go back and hear them because they will give you some extra content. And if you enjoy today's episode, you'll definitely enjoyed those too now i wasn't on these shows episode 50 and 101 know very little about sheep but i do know at the top of every episode julie mentions uh baby brunions with horns which i never knew what was on about i assumed that baby brunion with a horn was some sort of
00:02:16
Speaker
a baby devil in Scottish mythology a bit like a banshee over in Ireland or something but I listened to some of the stars of episode 50 and a baby Brunion I think and correct me if I'm wrong Julie because I probably am it's something to do with sheep is that right Yeah, what I'm saying is I'm quoting the gardener on the estate where my sheep live, or the sheep in my life, I should say, live.
Understanding 'Wee Brunions' and Introducing the Sheep
00:02:40
Speaker
And he is saying, as long as you didn't get the wee Brunians with the horns. And In plain English, as long as, this is before i had sheep in my life, as long as you don't get those little brown ones with the horns. So it's little brown sheep with horns.
00:03:00
Speaker
I've been looking up on Google, baby brunions with horns, and it broke the computer. It didn't know what I was on about. Those little brown ones. and Which is at the time when I first had sheep in my life, exactly what I did.
00:03:19
Speaker
ah I started off with four little Brunians. As wild as the hills, little soies. The line-up in the field has changed over the time.
00:03:32
Speaker
Nobody has died. Nobody has died, I will say that. But things did change. Some individuals didn't settle and one individual had a very unexpected lamb which meant that the person who gave me that sheep to care for, because I didn't have the facilities to care for the lamb, nor the fencing that was suitable, and it was a boy lamb. Lots of things were, and i had female sheep, so he couldn't stay with them.
00:04:01
Speaker
and She has separate fields and things, so so yeah, things had to change. So who we have in the field now is a little bit different. I have got...
00:04:13
Speaker
a very old, I do not know how old she is, a very old sheep called Rona, who's a soy sheep. So she is brown and she does have horns and she's a primitive sheep.
00:04:26
Speaker
They are descended from the sheep, the wild ones on the Isle of Soy in Scotland. And they're they like no other sheep. They really are ah um a very kind of primitive.
00:04:39
Speaker
They're very slim. They're very dainty. They are Very instinctive. They don't flock like sheep. They're they're just the very individual wee things.
00:04:51
Speaker
So that's Rona. She had ah some kind of relations with a Shetland ram through a fence. which resulted in Nuala who is in my life who is half Shetland half Zoe so she does not have horns and a huge personality she's extremely cute I think she knows it and she's very sociable so that is Nuala she does have a very big personality not like her mum mum is very shy So
Sheep Personalities and Rescue Limitations
00:05:22
Speaker
that's them. And I also have a big boy sheep called Kendrick in the field. So he's called a weather. So he's male, but he's been castrated.
00:05:33
Speaker
Normally, you don't see those sheep going about. They are normally... Male sheep that aren't going to get used for breeding and kept as tups, as they call them in Scotland, rams in other countries, would be killed for meat as lambs.
00:05:48
Speaker
Kendrick was spared that because he has a very particularly beautiful fleece. So for the first three years of his life, he was shorn and his fleece was taken and won things at shows.
00:06:01
Speaker
But then at three years old, his fleece is not as good as it was. So that's why he came to me so that he, you know, because I don't need his fleece to be winning shows.
00:06:13
Speaker
So that saved him from going to the slaughterhouse. He is big and grey. He has black legs and a black tummy and a black muzzle.
00:06:24
Speaker
He looks like he's wearing black skinny jeans. His legs are very blue black. And he's got very long, slim legs. He's not what you would imagine a sheep to be like at all. He's very tall and slim. He's got a kind of almost horse-like appearance.
00:06:40
Speaker
He also has a gigantic personality. He was in a field of rams when I met him. He was getting bullied. And yet, when I went into his field to meet him for the first time, he swaggered straight over and kissed me straight on the mouth.
00:06:58
Speaker
and and And that was it. And he's done it every day since then. So is here's a real bloke. He is amazing.
00:07:10
Speaker
And ah yeah, he's very dominant and he's very territorial about me as well. if i If I have to pay attention to other sheep in the field, he tries to get in between us a lot, which makes caring for the other ones awkward sometimes.
00:07:25
Speaker
But and i I can't be annoyed with him about it. and So that's Kendrick and alongside Kendrick coming from the same place is a wee girl, a wee ewe who is a retired ewe that was used, very much used as a wee sheep to just produce lamb after lamb.
00:07:47
Speaker
She doesn't have to do that now and her name is Iris and she is brown and white. and very placid easygoing and for someone who does not have arms she manages to hug you and cuddle you like you'd never believe she is very tactile and very physical and absolutely loves contact for some reason and she loves to be brushed as well it sends her to sleep she was never brushed in her previous home so I don't know where she you I mean it's just obviously naturally something that she really has come to enjoy in life is to get a nice brushing so that's so there are only four in my life at the moment it feels like too few but that's where we're at at the minute we have four
00:08:37
Speaker
You're painting a picture, as you always do when you talk about the sheep in your life, of their individual personalities um and their idiosyncrasies. and And that's something that we don't see when we're hearing about animal agriculture. and and And as well, I think we don't see it because actually we're seeing animals that are in that environment up and are being animals.
00:09:02
Speaker
objectified so that literally their behavior will be different um obviously Iris and Kendrick have been with you a shorter amount of time but it's still still over a year now isn't it like ah I'm wondering if do you see over time changes in behaviour that you could attribute to the fact that they are in an environment where they're not being objectified?
00:09:27
Speaker
Like, is that is that wishful thinking on my part, that that that that might happen? Or is that something that you can observe? I think from the get go, they didn't come from a bad place.
00:09:38
Speaker
Let's be clear. They didn't come from a flock of a thousand sheep. You know, that is one thing to make clear. They came from a fairly small scale sort of environment.
00:09:52
Speaker
And I have to be not, I cannot rescue sheep the way that I wanted to. I only have access to ah field that is an acre in size.
00:10:06
Speaker
And the lease I have gives me a ah maximum number of sheep of five for the space. So I have to have a small number and I don't have isolation facilities or quarantine facilities and I don't live at the field.
00:10:23
Speaker
So i cannot take the worst cases in that I would love to. And I also have a full-time job and two other jobs on top. So although I'm at the field twice a day, I cannot be there like a sanctuary, you know, caring for really, really unwell sheep. They need tons of input.
00:10:41
Speaker
So I do have to be quite circumspect about who's in the field. because I don't claim to be, I'm rehoming, but I'm not rescuing in the sense that I am saving, nursing them back from terrible trauma and dreadful circumstances and conditions because can't ensure the safety of the sheep who are already in the field if I bring in ones that have got diseases and all kinds going on. and So I have limitations in that
00:11:11
Speaker
So none of them have come from dreadfulness, really, to recover from. But they are all not going into dreadfulness in that none of them will know the inside of a slaughterhouse.
00:11:25
Speaker
So I'm not perfect. I'm not doing rehab and rescue from that point of view. But having said all that... the sheep that are in my care do exhibit behaviour of playfulness of energy, of bossing me around and directing me that I cannot imagine sheep in agriculture ever really having the spirit, the energy or the capacity to ever express at all.
00:12:01
Speaker
You know, my sheep are very, very spirited and I mean, Nuala has been with me since she was a lamb, so she doesn't know anything much else than then me and the field that she is in.
00:12:15
Speaker
But even as an adult now, as an as an older sheep, because she's been in my life for over four years, she still jumps around as if she's a lamb.
00:12:26
Speaker
And even just the prospect, because she's she's got a very, um you know, she's got a big appetite, If Nuala is anticipating that there is some food coming, she will literally just from a stand just jump into the air with happiness.
00:12:43
Speaker
That's how she shows she's happy about stuff. She just launches herself straight into the air. And she still does that. But, you know, she she really still wants to play as if she's a lamb. She wants me to sit in the field and put my legs out so she can jump them and she will let me know when she would like to do that.
00:13:02
Speaker
and and she has that trust that I'll understand that that's what she's after as well so she knows that stupid human which is what I imagine that they call me in their mind you know stupid human has the capacity to be instructed to um you know bend to their will and stuff so that they do they do teach me things and I'm grateful for that So, Julia, can I ask, ah did did you this is a self-directed
Journey into Sheep Care and Rewilding Concerns
00:13:32
Speaker
project then? you You're leasing out the field, you're taking care of these animals on your own, by yourself, with your own money?
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, totally. Absolutely. It stems very quickly, Mark, from during lockdown, the first phase of it, I was walking in the morning before work and I was finding a field of sheep that that regularly were stuck on their back. They were cast. And when sheep are stuck on their back, they suffocate their big tummies, their rumen, where they digest, squirre.
00:14:04
Speaker
washes their lungs and they die. So I was rolling them over and I was worried about them being cast. So every morning I was checking them. You know, I was getting up at six zero in the morning before work and going to the field to check the sheep and rolling over the ones that they needed rolled over.
00:14:20
Speaker
That's right. did These are sheep that are owned by a farmer? did Yes, yes. Oh, no, they weren't mine. They weren't on my land. They weren't my sheep. But he wasn't doing it. So I was going out there. I did get in touch with him said, I'm rolling your sheep over.
00:14:33
Speaker
And also I found one, again, this is in the episode one, so I won't go on about it, but one that had wire wrapped around his neck, which I freed as well. So I became concerned about sheep.
00:14:46
Speaker
and I became feeling that I could become close them because I never knew what they were like I thought they were all just kind of quite all the same stereotypical behavior and all the rest of it I just didn't I had never just fallen in love with them much before I did fall in love with them just by being around them and the ones in this particular field, they were all going for slaughter as as sheep do.
00:15:13
Speaker
You know what mean? So when I spoke to farmer about rolling over, he went, well, I don't know why you're bothering really because they're all going for slaughter. And so I tried to buy them all and I tried to persuade the landowner to lease me that field so that I could take care of all of them.
00:15:26
Speaker
and I was too late and they'd all gone. And when I walked through that field, the empty field, just with sheep poo in it, just walking through, I said, Julie, Julie, don't cry.
00:15:40
Speaker
Find a field and however big the field is, put as many sheep in as will fit and they won't go for slaughter. This is how to do this. This is how to put this right for you and show people what sheep are really like.
00:15:55
Speaker
So... I just live in a tiny wee house on my own and work for a charity. I don't have loads of money and I don't have any land but I did find a field within walking distance of my house and I have put as many sheep will fit in it for the last four years and I have learned as I go because I've never kept sheep before.
00:16:16
Speaker
how to care for them. ah It's not been easy. It's been very difficult. It's been very, very expensive. And I wouldn't change a thing. So, Julie, we've seen a few narratives in the media about sheep being destructive in rewilding projects and the like. What's your take on that?
00:16:35
Speaker
I get really worried ah about rewilding as a whole because there's a lot of people put a lot of trust in if something is a rewilding project that it's good and wholesome and nice and everything. And I'm sure tons of it is.
00:16:53
Speaker
But I really worry about that it's not necessary. Of course it is not organised by vegans and it's not done from an animal rights point of view.
00:17:04
Speaker
It's as anthropocentric as anything else going on in our society. So rewilding is for the benefit of humans.
00:17:15
Speaker
Some animals will benefit, you know, definitely, but for the benefit of humans, if you like. And some animals will be culled and sheep are among those that will be culled because rewilding relies on often trees coming back where trees have been taken away by humans, but in order for the trees to come back and to get a chance to grow,
00:17:43
Speaker
There cannot be sheep there because sheep are quite inclined to eat young trees in the same way that deer are and sheep get culled in the same way that deer do.
00:17:53
Speaker
And I find that really, really worrying. Sheep get to be popular where their grazing habits are popular. So you will hear quite often about primitive breeds, a bit like some of my, you know,
00:18:08
Speaker
I've had in my life over the last couple of years the soys or the Hebrideans being used on conservation grazing because they're browsers and they're handy for keeping rough areas down and they don't need a lot of care or so people think well you know they can get away with not caring for them much but whenever their presence isn't convenient they will be slaughtered.
00:18:35
Speaker
They're just getting used and modified the same way. So where are sheep originally from, if you like?
Realities of the Wool Industry and Ethical Shearing
00:18:42
Speaker
I think they're from Arab countries or the Middle East.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah. Simmons cars then, yeah. yeah I think so. the They are the animal that have been domesticated the longest. You you speak there about the misconceptions, Julie, that people will have about rewilding and the the the kind of associative things that therefore would happen.
00:19:06
Speaker
A misconception that I had or I kind of knowingly put in my mind when I was... kind of identifying as vegan for the first few years was I would still wear woolly socks that my mum had knitted for me basically because I couldn't bear to tell her to stop stop making me these things. It was a real joy for her.
00:19:27
Speaker
um And I think that was made easier by viewing wool as a byproduct. And sometimes we do hear about so-called cruelty-free wool, you know, oh, it's not hurting the sheep or it's done in there the nicest possible way.
00:19:42
Speaker
I should say, and I have done on the podcast before, i that's not a practice I engage in anymore. But could you give us a bit more insight as to why I mean, number one, wool is not a by-product that's just harmlessly taken off a sheep. But also, there are companies that will really promote themselves as, oh, it's cruelty-free, oh, it's merino wool.
00:20:03
Speaker
what Why is that a fallacy? Well, first of all, a bit of explanation. Merino sheep are a particular type of sheep. They are in Australia mainly.
00:20:14
Speaker
And they are the ones that that are used the most for woolly clothing. The sheep you see in the UK out in the fields are mainly used for meat and you know producing lamb specifically.
00:20:29
Speaker
And their wool isn't terribly useful and it's not really generally made into clothing. It might be carpets or whatever, but you don't get money for it. There's no money really in wool from a bog standard sheep.
00:20:44
Speaker
Scottish mule sheep or a black-faced leicester, whatever, you know, maybe Shetlands. But this Merino breed of sheep, they do produce the wool that you can make clothing from and and often that's, you know, the main source of it.
00:21:00
Speaker
The problem with Merino sheep... They have been bred to have a particular type of fleece and also a particular type of skin. And it's all about maximizing what they will produce. It's not in their interests to be physically the way they are nowadays at all.
00:21:20
Speaker
And they are very, very prone as a result to a condition that all sheep and cows also, but and even wee rabbits, but fly strike is a big risk. And fly strike basically is where flies are attracted to dampness or odour on that animal.
00:21:41
Speaker
and will land there and lay eggs and when the eggs hatch into maggots the maggots travel into the sheep rather than outside and they will kill a sheep by eating if it's their head it'll be their brain or their insides or whatever it's it's a very difficult condition for the animal to survive and So merino sheep are extremely predisposed to fly strike because they've got this wrinkly skin around their bottoms and because most sheep in agriculture, because they're not fed diets that are healthy for them, they've usually got quite mucky backsides.
00:22:22
Speaker
don't know if you've noticed that, but if you ever look at a field sheep, they've usually got green bottoms. My sheep don't have that, by the way. So yes, they're very prone to fly strike. So what they do with merino sheep is they cut their skin off their bottoms.
00:22:38
Speaker
They literally just take a layer of skin off with a knife and let that scar. And it's so badly scarred it doesn't grow hair so that no moisture or faeces can stick to their bottom.
00:22:52
Speaker
And it's called mulesing. So you will see a lot of wool from sheep like that that have been mutilated like that. And that is horrible. So you will also find people who go, oh, don't worry, this is ethical Merino wool and the sheep have not been mulesed.
00:23:10
Speaker
Well, okay. that's That's one thing that they haven't been put through, but you can bet your bottom dollar that every other aspect of their life will be controlled by profit and human interest and not their own health and and very little freedom.
00:23:28
Speaker
And the frightening thing is that merino wool has become so popular and so lucrative that actually merino sheep are intensively factory farmed in some instances.
00:23:40
Speaker
So that is a reason to utterly, utterly avoid it, even if you are not vegan. If you care about animals at all, absolutely stay away from merino wool.
00:23:53
Speaker
But I think it is absolutely worth staying away from all wool because commodification of animals Isn't a nice way to live at all.
00:24:05
Speaker
And one of the PETA videos that has me absolutely howling out loud is the PETA one on sheep shear. And they've got a few of them now. There used to be just one, but they've got a few of them.
00:24:16
Speaker
And behind closed doors, because shearers get paid per sheep, they go crazy. hugely, hugely fast when they're shearing on a commercial basis so so and they are flinging sheep around, they're breaking their legs, they're causing massive cuts. Those shears are viciously sharp.
00:24:34
Speaker
They're cutting their tummies. They're doing most horrible things to restrain them and because the sheep are frightened and they're getting really just thrown about. It's horrible.
00:24:46
Speaker
Sheep, unfortunately, do need to be shorn. Because Kendrick, Nula and Iris are sheep who have been bred to have enormous fleeces, way too big for what they really need, I do have to get somebody in. I stand over the person who does them and make sure that they are done. And I spend...
00:25:11
Speaker
I pay a huge amount over the going rate to make sure that they're done with gentleness and kindness. So yeah, the whole wool industry, people will come at me sometimes and online because I'm always sticking up for sheep online and they'll say shearing get out here i don't need an anaesthetic before I get a haircut it's just like them getting a haircut and all the rest of it but the bigger picture of of sheep in the animal agriculture industry is that they are animals who are
00:25:48
Speaker
every aspect of their life is controlled the food that they're given isn't good for them the lives that they are forced to lead often just are full of things that frighten them things that hurt them things that take away their agency that it's a huge list of you know things that are not in their interest is sensitive little prey animals that are easily frightened they They do have
Challenges in Sheep Care and Veterinary Experiences
00:26:18
Speaker
a horrible life. You only have to look at sheep handling equipment.
00:26:22
Speaker
There's things called races that they herd sheep into, little corridors made of gates so that they have no choice but to go forward. All of that equipment, it's all about forcing sheep to do things that they are frightened of doing and controlling them.
00:26:39
Speaker
There are things, lamb shoots, where sheep, Because lambs, and you know, get given all these drugs and things like a big metal tube is shoved right down into their throat and to dose them up with the drugs that they and the industry feels they need to be given.
00:26:59
Speaker
They are kind of scooted along the race and then put in a machine that tips them up and renders them completely helpless while somebody comes along the line and puts this tube down their throat.
00:27:13
Speaker
These things are just horrible to see and that is sheep and agriculture. None of that is needed when you are caring for sheep on a small scale. None of my sheep experience that.
00:27:24
Speaker
whatsoever. They are cared for on their own terms and am I'm always looking out for the the healthiest, least restrictive, where they have the most agency to attend to their healthcare needs.
00:27:41
Speaker
So Julie, in terms of taking care of sheep or any animal that and is out of infancy, is it hard to find a vet who has experience in dealing with animals of that age. And I ask this question because um I was listening to a podcast a while back where there was an interview with some people in Ireland who had rescued some at piglets and were taking care of them on a sanctuary.
00:28:04
Speaker
And it was a few years sort of on down the road and the piglets had grown into pigs and they were getting older and they were suffering from whatever ailments elderly pigs might have. and they called out a vet and the vet didn't know what to do because it was the first time that vet had seen a pig of that age.
00:28:20
Speaker
Generally, they were only going around to factory farms where they're all piglets and piglets are routinely slaughtered six months. So most of the animals that end up in a laboratory are babies. As a result, vets tend to have not much experience in dealing with animals outside of that age group because they're all dead by that point. So is it hard to find experienced and sympathetic people to help with elderly sheep?
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, well the vet that I use, it's a teaching practice based from the University of Edinburgh. So one of the vets that sees to my sheep is probably about the top sheep vet in Scotland, if not the UK, whatever.
00:28:59
Speaker
But even at that, you're absolutely right. They have very little experience of someone who cares for the sheep on a small scale in the way I do and someone who doesn't just cull them at the first thing going wrong.
00:29:17
Speaker
Because often in animal agriculture, as soon as a sheep is even lame more than once... or anything, they will be culled because they're not profitable. I mean, the advice with a sheep that gets stuck on its back is that if it gets stuck on its back once, you put a mark on it.
00:29:35
Speaker
And if it gets stuck on its back and it's, again, so it's already got a mark on it, you cull it. So... It is just cull, cull, cull. So there is ah very little body of evidence for treatment for things that sheep have.
00:29:50
Speaker
So some of the things the caretakers of sheep in agriculture wouldn't even notice in the first place. so And then secondly, if they did, it would just be a matter of, oh, well, you know, that's one for the freezer or whatever.
00:30:05
Speaker
But that body of evidence for treatment isn't there. And and ya I have only got one sheep in my care, Rona, who is very, very, very elderly.
00:30:18
Speaker
i'm So far, apart from the fact she has more or less lost her vision, she's so old. She is otherwise very well.
00:30:29
Speaker
But if she comes down with anything in older age, yeah, I'm going to have a battle to get health care for her, I think. I already make sure that she gets a very large second breakfast because she is, you know, finding it hard. She's got no teeth left either.
00:30:46
Speaker
But again, these are inescapable things just because she's she's outlived her, you know, hard even her normal lifespan, if you know i mean. She was already very elderly when she came into my life.
00:30:58
Speaker
And i've she's been with me for four years. So she's really, you know, she's probably the equivalent of a human being in their late 90s or something. But she's still very, very spirited.
00:31:11
Speaker
She can still eat carrots, even with no teeth. And she still will run up. for food and stuff like that but but that is part of the issue is that she can't see very well so she does run about a lot and she sort of crashes into things a bit as well.
00:31:25
Speaker
Luckily Nula being her daughter this is dispelling another myth about animals not recognising family relations once they're of an adult age. Nula is without any doubt Rona's carer as well as her daughter and I see examples of Nula looking after Rona Every single day I'm at that field, which is every day of my life, by the way, twice a day without fail.
00:31:53
Speaker
But Nula, not with any other sheep there, but she looks after Rona and takes care of Rona and I see it every day.
00:32:04
Speaker
So ah she's she's helping me out with Rona's care, where interestingly, sometimes Kendrick, who's my right-hand man, the big male sheep, he helped me with Nula the other day, but that was helping me, not helping Nula, in that I was trimming Nula's feet, which none of them like getting done.
00:32:27
Speaker
I've never hurt them at all doing that, but they just instinctively don't like getting their hooves touched. So I had trimmed Nuala's front and back foot on one side and I needed her to move over so I could get to the other ones.
00:32:41
Speaker
And she didn't want me to do it, so she didn't want to move over. And Kendrick's done this on more than one occasion. Kendrick will see what's happening and what I would like Nuala to do and he'll come and butt her for me and Shat moves her over.
00:32:56
Speaker
So he acts as a second sheep handler for me.
00:33:02
Speaker
which is very useful julie we need to wrap things up you you speak with such knowledge and care and and earnestness so ah about the not just the sheep that you're in your life but sheep in in general is there a a final message that you would like listeners to take away from from this conversation Yes, yes.
Individuality of Sheep and Listener Engagement
00:33:27
Speaker
They can be, I think possibly, ah difficult animal to feel really passionate about advocating for because we don't get the chance to see them as the individuals that they are. I know I didn't.
00:33:43
Speaker
I really didn't before i sort of inadvertently got up close and personal with a sheep and that was very far into my own sort of veganism and far into my life.
00:33:55
Speaker
You know, I mean, I was i was in my 50s before I really touched a sheep and knew that they really liked, some of them do, some of them maybe don't, but responded to human contact and were so interactive and so...
00:34:11
Speaker
playful and inquisitive and curious and clever. I mean, goodness me, they're clever. um I knew none of that. So I ah just want people to know that if the the sort of aspects of other animals that really move you to advocate on their behalf and to stick up for them and be interested in them and and and enjoy experience, getting to know about them, those are all there for you in sheep as well as the animals that we more commonly associate. I mean, I think people are drawn very strongly to pet animals, for want of a better expression. You
00:34:50
Speaker
a and um and cats and dogs and and the the the animals that are in our homes often and we extend that more to pigs because people have done quite a good PR job on pigs I think in recent years but it's all there in sheep I swear they really honestly are the most complex sensitive animals b and It's lovely to experience their company. It's almost frightening or it is frightening to think though when I think about how sociable and how trusting and how hugely sensitive these sheep that I know are, the thought of what they would be like in a slaughterhouse environment.
00:35:37
Speaker
it I feel sick. you know I really do because I know how terrified they would be, but also how willing to please and how trusting and how much... you know We knew I would probably walk up to somebody with that...
00:35:53
Speaker
bolt gun in their hand and try to be pals you know i mean it i could cry thinking about it really are 100 deserving of every single effort we can make to speak up on their behalf to avoid contributing to their abuse and killing absolutely yes and if you get chance to get to know a wee sheep or spend a bit of time take it because you it really is an incredible experience we're privileged to get the chance to do it when we can absolutely well why wise words and a really really lovely um if i can call it a case study i hope that doesn't make it sound too dispassionate but like a real example as to how
00:36:39
Speaker
ah We get to know any sentient beings, that there's there personality and and rights and and and and things in there but that need to be valued. Thank you for that, Julie.
00:36:50
Speaker
um And thank you, everybody, for listening. um As ever, we absolutely love hearing from you. So if you've got a question for Julie or a comment or an opinion on something that has popped into your head as a result of this conversation or indeed any of our other other conversations, drop us an email.
00:37:09
Speaker
It's enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We do read you all your emails. We will get back to you. And unless you would rather we didn't, we will feature it in one of our subsequent shows so that we can engage in the discussion further.
00:37:24
Speaker
Thank you to Mark for your participation in this episode too. I should just say before I pass back over to Julie to tell us about our next episode. If you want to help us out, listeners, you can either review the show by just doing a click if you're on Spotify or I think on Apple Podcasts, you can even leave leave some words talking about it.
00:37:43
Speaker
You can leave a comment after one of the episodes and you can just simply tell someone about it either by clicking a share button or you can just say, hey, mate, listen to episode 173. I think you'll really dig it um and we would appreciate all of that.
00:37:59
Speaker
But Julie, I'm heading back over to you. Now you're going to tell us about the next episode coming out.
Upcoming Episodes and Archives
00:38:03
Speaker
Yeah, so the next one is available from Monday and it features Anthony, Kate and Mark and it's going to be a Vegan Week episode, our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:38:21
Speaker
I know that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Julie. Thank you, Anthony, for all your contributions. Thanks everyone for listening. I've been Mark and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:38:37
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:38:52
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:39:18
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:39:39
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from