Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
231- Vegan Movies: To Shock or Not To Shock?
90 Plays4 days ago
So many of us have changed our lives to become vegan because of hard-hitting video productions, detailing the horrors of animal agriculture & other forms of exploitation...and yet perhaps even more will say that graphic footage will prevent them from watching a film or short video. And that's before we get to the whole host of adverts that have been banned in recent years for arguably the most mild and short snippets of animal exploitation. Is there a happy medium? Or are we left to just take pot luck guesses with our vegan movie production decisions? Ant, Mark & Julie discuss the nuances and tricky decisions surround making animal rights video content.
In the discussion, we mention:
Dominion Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NiOwibz14
Land of Hope and Glory Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqPflP_hXyY
Earthlings Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otBzEIuvgjI
Seaspiracy Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q5CXN7soQg
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
*************
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
*******************
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Mark, Julie & Anthony
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone.
Creating Vegan Films: Open or Secretive?
00:00:01
Speaker
Now, if you were making a vegan or animal rights film, you're going to have lots of decisions to make. How much are you going to tell people in advance about what you're going to be showing? you're going to keep it a secret or are you going to be really open? are you going to show lots of graphic footage or you going to deliberately not do so? Lots of decisions, lots of things to think about and that's what we're going to be talking about
Introducing Hosts and Episode Theme
00:00:22
Speaker
today. We is me, Anthony. It's also Julie and Mark and you are listening of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. They're arguing like, oh poor woe is me.
00:00:49
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the fuck.
00:00:56
Speaker
Hi everyone, are listening to Mark. Welcome to episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for being here.
Impact of Vegan Films on Advocacy
00:01:03
Speaker
as you only get the wee bruance with the horns you'll be all right does veganism give him superpower
00:01:14
Speaker
don't have laser vision hi everyone you are listening to mark welcome to this episode of vegan talk thank you for being here Hello everybody, Julie here. So Vegan Talk is our episode where we get one particular topic and talk about it in a bit more depth and you'll see if you have a wee look back in your podcast feed that we've done loads of these episodes and they're all on different topics so you can have a wee scroll back and listen to ones we've done before if you like. Indeed you can, and indeed you should. Now, as I said at the top, we are talking today about moving pictures, films, videos, obviously with a vegan and animal rights focus. And we've spoken before on the podcasts about
00:02:03
Speaker
the impact that such things can have.
Graphic Content in Vegan Films: Impact and Approach
00:02:06
Speaker
And I'm sure those of you listening who maybe know five or more people who are vegan, I reckon at least one of them might attribute the fact that they are vegan towards a video, a film, a documentary, something like that. Maybe not an advert, but But who knows? So the power of them is there to speak on behalf of the animals. But there's a ah range of different types of film out there. And there's almost as many different ways in terms of the tone, the approach, the type of footage that.
00:02:42
Speaker
that that go with it. So there are some fundamental questions that we thought we'd discuss today. How much footage from animal agriculture is the right amount? If it's solid, wall-to-wall, two hours long, continuous footage, is that too much? Or is that detaining the truth that people need to see?
00:03:05
Speaker
How gory should it be? You know, should we be showing every last action that happens on an animal farm or in a animal exploiting circus? Or are there certain things that we should leave out or temper and just show little bits of?
00:03:23
Speaker
What about the time, the right time and place to show it? Is there an optimal opportunity to to bring these things to people's attention? And what about censorship?
Controversial Vegan Ads and Censorship
00:03:33
Speaker
We have reported on Enough of the Falafel Podcast in the last two and a bit years about the Darius Scary ad that was banned from Viva, that was in the last six months or so. Another Viva ad, the the Killer Yogurt ad at the end of 2023. That was another one that was removed. um And some of the most impactful vegan films like Dominion, Earthlings, Sea Spiracy, sometimes their trailers are not shown in certain places or they certainly cause controversy. So lots of different things to discuss. Let's let's pick one of them to start with. Mark, if I can come to you first and and then Julie. Is a banned advert bad news for animals? Viva said when their Darius Scary ad was banned, they said, well, we're disappointed it's been banned, but actually there might be an upside to it. What's your take?
00:04:30
Speaker
ah In terms of and it getting more traction... Amongst people who need to know about this, it's the best thing that can happen. You only need to look at at the likes of Kneecap or Bob Villain or back in the day bands like k Crass, who were always banned or frequently banned from being being distributed or even produced in the first place or face massive backlash. I mean, Kneecap getting called out by Keir Starmer sold more records for Kneecap than Kneecap ever could have done by writing a song themselves.
00:05:01
Speaker
So the perverse ah reality of banning something is that more people will hear about it. It's called the Streisand effect.
Media's Selective Outrage over Vegan Ad Bans
00:05:08
Speaker
Back in the very early days of the Internet, Barbara Streisand, a famous Hollywood actor, and a bland photograph of the outside of her house was put up on the on the Internet by someone, a fan or something.
00:05:20
Speaker
and she called it out. And as a result of her calling out, more people saw that photograph than ever would have seen the photograph if she hadn't said anything about it. So it has that it has this weird knock-on effect of getting a lot more traction and lot a lot more publicity when it's banned or called out by people in power. The flip side of that is where ah where are all the free speech warriors who ban on about we should be able to say anything we want in terms of calling other people bad names or being derogatory it's towards groups that we don't like. Where are they when stuck when stuff like this is happening? Where's Piers Morgan's outrage when Viva's ads are being banned? He will never mention it ever at all.
00:06:02
Speaker
and nor will any of his cohorts. They avoid this sort so sort of stuff being being being being banned because it' because they simply don't care.
Self-Censorship and Reality in Vegan Films
00:06:10
Speaker
And you you will know the the hypocrisy of someone like that when they only focus on things that they want people to hear and not what the general sort of principle is all about.
00:06:21
Speaker
so where are they when when i when this sort of stuff is happening but yes the best thing that could have happened in terms of it getting traction is to be banned because it's impossible to ban things really these days everything's on the internet and as soon as it's up there it's been copied and sort of put onto different platforms so banning something Okay, so you can benefit from going to certain places like the cinema or something like that. But um it it'll it'll be shown elsewhere um on people's phones, on YouTube, on Facebook or whatever the the kids are looking at these days. you know so yeah So the point is that we want folk to see...
00:06:56
Speaker
the reality of of what is going on in animal agriculture or in animal exploiting industries, hobbies, pastimes, etc. To that extent, Julie, that does raise the question as to whether we self-censor things or or decide, well, we're only going to show X amount of seconds or minutes of footage of really horrifying things. Like that it does raise that question. There are filmmakers that will say, oh, what we actually made a conscious choice not to show footage of animals losing their lives, but we did show this. what What's your opinion on that? Because we we we want to document things. Oh, yeah. And we need to retain our audience at the same time. Yeah. Well, the reason I went vegetarian at the age of 12 was because of a documentary.
00:07:49
Speaker
So that, you know, that was something I watched from start to finish. It was quite graphic. I did have a television or access to television set in those days. And so that was the reason went vegetarian.
00:08:01
Speaker
vegetarian and anti-vivisectionist and all the rest of it and then the reason I went or realised I could identify as vegan although I was already doing the stuff I just wasn't calling myself that again it was a video on Facebook so but it wasn't it was not graphic anything it wasn't anything to do with animal ag it was about horse riding actually so I am all for education and I'm all for people seeing these images and I'm all for 12 year olds seeing what goes on in the meat industry and in labs and things because it's what opened my eyes and led me to a way of life that has been peaceful and respectful towards animals ever since you know to the best of my ability because as I say veganism wasn't a thing that I was exposed to or educated about the age of 12 but vegetarianism was so I'm all for it
00:08:59
Speaker
I don't know about, you know, how much it needs to be censored. It just depends on the context, on the audience. But I would say the censorship is more about giving people what they will actually watch and engage with and not cause them to just switch over, switch off or avoid.
Importance of Exposing Reality in Animal Agriculture
00:09:22
Speaker
that's the thing you know I'm not worried about shocking people I'm not worried about showing people things because I I think people should see and know what they're buying into absolutely do but what I don't want to happen is for people to be so shocked by it that actually they then disengage from it it's getting that fine line as far as I'm concerned But if people are buying meat and eating it, I think they should absolutely see what has gone into that being part of their life and shopping habit and eating habit.
00:09:57
Speaker
Absolutely. I don't think they should be spared anything at all. It only seems fair, doesn't it it It doesn't seem like a just society where one can, well, basically mandate a certain action by an industry and the individuals within it. If if you're buying a pack of bacon, you are saying the following needs to happen. Yeah. in order for this to get to me. And so to not confront the reality of that doesn't seem like a reasonable society, does it? that that there's There's many problems with that. And you can see why people don't. I mean, the the fact is we're in a situation now in 2025, as we record, where that is the society where we live in. That is perfectly legal to do that. And so we have to find ways of of navigating that balance. Like you say, Julie, that that that point where somebody says, no, I'm going to turn away or turn off. And and goodness, like it's is so much harder to hold people's attention nowadays because there's an almost infinite number of, of if you if you want to be editing entertained by flashing moving pictures, that the world is your oyster,
Documentaries' Impact on Veganism
00:11:09
Speaker
isn't it? And I was just thinking about things that I've watched. So
00:11:13
Speaker
vegan documentaries and and ads that I've watched. Now, Earthlings, which I met many people who say they attribute their veganism to the film Earthlings, it came out in 2005.
00:11:25
Speaker
There's a point about 10 minutes in, I think it is, and it's going to be quite graphic, this description, where somebody puts a live dog into the back of a garbage truck. And I've both times, that's been the point. ah Both times I've been on the edge. And when that's happened, I've just said, I just can't do this. And yet Dominion, which came out a few years ago, very high res, certainly compared to...
00:11:50
Speaker
Earthlings, Dominions is is shot with much better equipment and in many ways, I think a lot of people will say is a much better advocacy tool. I have sat and watched that that the whole way through and I can't point to...
00:12:05
Speaker
what the difference is. votes Very often it's very subtle things. I noticed when researching for this show, there was an ad in 2022 by Vegan Friendly UK, who we we have featured on the show a few months ago, and they do have links to the Israel-Gaza conflict. I've just raised that we have covered that in another episode. But they released this advert called called Make the Connection, and that was banned after complaints of graphic and distressing imagery of animal slaughter. And you watch it and there's basically not. I mean, there's a couple of points where a fish is gutted, not to downplay that. Of of course, that's horrific. But it's it's not like some of the stuff that you see from, you know, investigative animal rights stuff. It it could be far, far worse, but it was enough for for it to be banned. So that the the line is wafer thin, isn't it? And what what will keep someone's attention versus what will...
00:13:01
Speaker
encourage someone to turn off, is it impossible to tell? Or like, could should we should we be focus group grouping these things, you know? get like I mean, maybe I'm being naive. Maybe these big animal rights documentaries, maybe they do put these things to a panel beforehand and work out what percentage of people will be able to tolerate things i am so with you though on the scene about the dog and the garbage truck because the whole film because i've watched the whole film myself and that that is the thing that sticks in my mind and when i have people in my social circle who are going out and buying a dog i have that clip play in my head and whereas in the past i would be peacefully going i'm
00:13:43
Speaker
Oh, that's nice. you know what mean? See, if when folk I know are buying a dog and not rescuing a dog, I'm so intolerant at that now. I'm raging. I would fall out with people. I would lose friends over that. You know, I haven't, it's not come to that, but you know what mean? I would be prepared to ditch somebody's friendship for life over something like that. And that's got a lot to do with that scene in that film. So it just shows how powerful it is, you know? Well, yeah. And, you know, I should point out, I have been watching that film as a vegan. The two times I've tried, I'm already vegan. I'd hate to think of someone missing the opportunity of having their horizons broadened by that film. Mm-hmm. because they can't get past that scene. And and I'm not criticising it. It's done far more for animal rights advocacy than I ever will. Mark, would you be happy to talk about like what what your line or what your sensitivities might be in terms of what you are able to watch and and what would encourage you to stop watching something? Yeah. At the top, I would say that I think it should be mandatory for school kids of a certain age, say in mid-teens, to be exposed to the reality of if if they want to make an informed choice as consumers, then they need to know what the process is in in a in producing meat and milk and and so on. they They shouldn't be allowed to get away with not knowing about this because it's far too important and it should be as graphic as the reality is. The issue with animal rights is that it's hard to have a sort of a happy medium with this, if you if if you if you want to use those words. the ah The New Zealand Vegan Society do excellent work in being the sweet nectar in terms of trying to attract people towards switching to a plant-based diet. The language they use, the graphics they use, it's all about the positivity, the the yumminess of a beautiful salad, and how good it is for you, how good it is for the planet.
00:15:44
Speaker
All very worthwhile and worthy. things to talk and know about. They tend not to go into the graphic detail of the reality. I mean, they do do it to a certain extent, but the general tendency is to steer away a bit from that because it is extremely dark.
00:15:59
Speaker
It's impossible to tell the story of animal farming without it going into a real pit of despair, I would say. One of the first movies that came out around all this was a movie called The Animals Film, in 1981 by a guy called Victor Schoenfield and it I think this was one of very... That's the one that turned me vegetarian that is it the animals from. Okay yeah it had a huge impact because partly because the animal exploitation industries at that time weren't aware of the power of the camera and how off-putting their practices were going to be to the general public they were so used to what they were doing that they didn't think anything about it it was the casual cruelty
00:16:42
Speaker
that was displayed in the Animals film that was there was there was one of the biggest, the most upsetting parts of that. And I remember watching that with some friends of mine, some very good friends of mine who I'm still very good friends with. And I was appalled by this. I was absolutely outraged. I was stunned and by the graphic violence.
00:17:01
Speaker
And my other friends who were watching with me, I think they'd switched off after about five minutes. And And that's a psychological hack in order to survive in the world, being able to switch off from really brutal things go going on around you. and i didn't switch ah I didn't switch off from it and it drove me from then until now and and and and until the day I die to be an ardent advocate for animals.
00:17:25
Speaker
For them, they were able to ignore it. But I know that you you can't on unsee this sort of stuff. I know it seared into their minds ah just before the point where their brains sort of switched off from this because it was too horrific. The stuff that they'd seen up to that point cannot have not been seared into their brains.
00:17:45
Speaker
And it's influenced, however, to a small an extent, their views towards the way I felt about animals and the way they saw the animal business from then on. It didn't make them go vegetarian.
00:17:59
Speaker
But it can't have not ah affected them. I don't think you can be a ah thinking human human human being and be exposed to this stuff and not be affected
Education on Animal Rights vs Historical Atrocities
00:18:10
Speaker
by it. So all these movies we're doing was was putting a camera in front of the practices that there were that were going on. It wasn't enhanced with music or with graphics or anything that. It was showing you exactly what happens.
00:18:23
Speaker
So, yeah, it should be mandatory for people who are prepared to consume this stuff and and pay for it, to be exposed to the reality of it and guarantee it will turn a lot of people off. it And the power of of the ah camera in these sort of situations, as Greenpeace and as Sea Shepherd know, the power of the camera is immense. And all you have to do is point it in the right direction and show it to the right people, and it will have an effect for some people. believe Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
What is interesting, and I ah don't disagree with what you've said, and I remember at secondary school being shown reasonably graphic film footage of the Holocaust and in the Second World War, I think for similar reasons to what you're saying. i'm obviously not comparing the the two events or phenomena, but I think the logic behind teachers showing this is part of it. It wasn't part of any subject that we were taking. It was just sort of a general studies sort of this is stuff that you need to know but i think presumably because it's like well if we educate people about it it's less likely to happen again so it's it's it's a kind of similar mindset i suppose isn't it absolutely the the uh the dean the denatification program in in ah germany uh immediately following world war ii involved bringing people who lived nearby auschwitz and berkinau and belz and all that and forcing them to walk around those camps and seeing the the the death pits and the gas chambers and the piles of dead, knit naked children and and and all this. So it was it was deemed then, and it should be deemed now to be an imperative part of your education. If you want to know how bad things can get, you you have to be exposed to it.
00:20:04
Speaker
and the And the only way of doing that is actually sitting down and seeing it or being forced to walk through a death camp or something like that. There there there is no other way of doing that, really. Reading about it or hearing about it isn't enough. And what is interesting, i i agree with the sentiment, is if we, so I just thought off the top of my head of four animal rights, vegan movies that I've either watched or started to watch and not made it all the way through.
Trailer Content: Graphic vs Engaging
00:20:28
Speaker
Earthlings, Dominion, Seaspiracy, Land of Hope and Glory. Of those four films, the first three, so all apart from Land of Hope and Glory, they, all of them, the trailers don't really show much gory stuff at all. Land of Hope and Glory, that the trailer has the the, music by Elgar playing in the background and it shows the atrocities of UK animal agriculture. The the film is focused on UK practices for for those that aren't aware. But Earthlings, Dominion and Seaspiracy, there's no
00:21:05
Speaker
Sea Spiracy might show some fit some fish being asphyxiated, I suppose. But there's certainly not blood and guts. There's not in Dominion. There's not in Earthlings. So there's something about the trailer process, the persuasive process.
00:21:20
Speaker
part of come on watch this film you might find it interesting where it's not blood and guts it's not we're gonna show you absolutely everything not explicitly saying that i think they all bring brought with them ah a gravitas and you know we've put a link in the show notes so that listeners can can watch those trailers if if you'd want for reference that there's a the music lends to a gravitas the tone is we're gonna shine a light on what's going on in these films, but they're not necessarily saying, you're going to see explicitly this, this, this, here's what you're going to see.
00:21:58
Speaker
That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, ah I've never seen any of them except except for Seaspiracy, and I avoid them as much like the plague really. I would go insane if I was being exposed to that. the One of the beautiful upshots of being vegan is that it isn't aimed at me.
00:22:13
Speaker
I've unplugged from this machine. So ah I don't need to, ah I know what sort of stuff is going to be in there. I can sort of imagine it. ah I don't need to see it again. I've been exposed to it. I've, I've, made the change. Now the people who pay for this sort of stuff should be should be forced down to, and forced to sit down and watch this, but I don't have to, and thank God I don't, because it it would literally drive drive you mad. I mean, there's lots of ways about it.
00:22:38
Speaker
Julie, you've got your ah infamous videos on your phone ready to show somebody a moment's notice. Mark's used a language of you know people ought to be made to sit down and watch this I'm assuming you don't take people against their will strap them to a chair and and and put it in front of them so so how's that process going when I'm not saying I don't I'm not saying I disagree with you Mark but like in practice like Julie like How are you getting people to watch those little stories? Or are they just a veiled threat? I've got the video here No, no, they're definitely not a veiled threat. I've got some videos that, you know, have have in my little world gone viral. I've used them so many times. and
00:23:25
Speaker
Yes, I've used them in lots of different ways. And... you know, just when people are quite piously saying to me about, oh, I only have three range eggs because they are so cruelty free and I love animals and blah, blah, blah. I will ping them a video of, you know, the little baby one day old chicks on the conveyor belt flapping wildly, trying to get away from the edge while the other wee chicks fall in and get ground up alive.
00:23:56
Speaker
And that's footage from a a free range farm in the UK, you know, and it's it's titled as that. So that's been one that's been sent to people, because quite a lot of people, like when the whole happy egg thing was happening with Parkrun, I sent that to a lot of people then. But what's accompanying that? Is is is anything accompanying that? Or has someone said something and and you've literally just sent the video? No context, no words. I'm just saying, I've got a video I'm going to send you. And there there was, I think I've mentioned to this in the show before, but there was one time, God help him, a man who was trying to chat me up, who, was messaging me a lot and then said he'd had a lovely brunch with ex-Florentine or something. And I just, I sent him that video.
00:24:45
Speaker
No explanation, no conversation, because I didn't even want to talk to him. So I just sent him that and I never heard from him again. And that was exactly what wanted to have. relationships that you'd like to sustain, romantic or otherwise... Like, is is there is there any, like, surely, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, surely there needs to be a bit of context or or a bit of conversation that accompanies it beforehand, afterwards, during, or not? where Or not? Does that undermine the power of it? mean, the first person I ever think that we chick video to burst into tears,
00:25:20
Speaker
And, you know, was really upset. And then the next day, because we were actually on a holiday, we were on ah a thing, a training week in Portugal, actually. So, you know, we were all, we were kind of stuck with each other's company. She did thank me and she said, I'm never eating eggs again. So result. Yeah. Yeah. So I have got videos. I do send them where appropriate or post them places or put them on Facebook. that The sheep one, the shearing, the PETA one, twenty clips from 25 farms in the yeah UK, where the sheep getting stamped on and awful things happen them while they're getting shorn, that makes me almost ill.
00:26:04
Speaker
That really makes me cry so hard, but I have watched it and I have sent that to an awful lot of people who have innocently, well, ha said to me, do you use your sheep's wool? What's wrong with wool, Julie?
00:26:19
Speaker
I just send them that. And I haven't made it up. I didn't invent it. I'm not trying to hurt them. I'm just trying to explain it better than I can explain it in words. They need to see it for themselves. So I can't do the sheep's plight justice with my words, I don't think. But Peter, I've done an amazing job of making that video. So I would let that...
00:26:41
Speaker
be their guide and if they want to watch that and then they can make their own choices up after that you know i mean i'm not saying well don't do it i'm just you know this is this is the reason i don't engage with the wool industry this is the reason this is the answer i want to give you here it is this video explains it better than i can So that's that's the way I do it. a don't say, you awful person, you know, whatever. Unless I really just want that person out of my life, I will just send it and that's the end of it. But that was a one-off. But usually I will just say, this is the a better explanation than I can give you.
00:27:20
Speaker
aim Yeah, but I'm obviously having conversation too. That's the benefit, isn't it, of a carefully curated, well-produced video in that it it can do things often better than we can off the cuff because it's but it's so much time has been put into exactly the right message being put across. Now, we often correctly point out that we're not the vegan high council. We we don't make decisions on behalf of all activists and all vegans everywhere. That said, we're entitled to an opinion.
00:27:57
Speaker
Are there general rules of thumb that we think are good ones to follow for whether it's a short film or a feature film in terms of the balance of content that's in there, the type of a trailer that's put together? Because realistically, like short form video is is very commonly used nowadays. So that can be a really effective way of persuading someone to watch something. Are there general do's and don'ts that we think from our experience work? It's tricky, really. It's sort of important to realise that if if it gets too hardcore and too intense, um people aren't going to want to watch it.
00:28:37
Speaker
Having said that, we do a disservice to the issue and to the animals who are victims if we don't show it as it is. And as it is, is really intense and dark and very disturbing for most people.
00:28:49
Speaker
ah for For the ones who it isn't disturbing for, they are de facto psychopaths. And most people on the planet aren't psychopaths. They may be highly conditioned to behave in a psychopathic way towards certain species, but when they understand and see the reality of what goes on behind closed doors, they tend to be appalled by it. It may not translate into action. But if that doesn't turn them, I don't know
Reactions to Graphic Content in Advocacy
00:29:14
Speaker
what will. I know for me and for Julie, you as well, and for maybe a lot of people that are listening to this show, being exposed to that sort of stuff was the instigator.
00:29:22
Speaker
I also understand that, as I was saying earlier, that the three of the people I was watching the animals film with, we were all exposed to the same information. Only one of us reacted in what you might call a positive way.
00:29:33
Speaker
And that was me. And why didn't the others react in that way as well? Is it because they're more conditioned? Is because is it because they care less? I've no idea. I do get a little bit frustrated with the softly, softly approach because it tends to avoid the reality of of what goes on. But having said that, I understand that the reality of what goes on is so intense and off-putting that it might be complete turn off for maybe the the majority of people. So and my answer is ah I don't know really. But I think to avoid
00:30:05
Speaker
the reality of what goes on isn't isn't fair. We can't be too namby-pamby or gentle with people anyway because look at the films that do get into the cinema, for example, or onto television or Netflix or whatever, that are horror films or that are murder films or, you know, all of those things. I mean, i wouldn't spend my time watching those, but I've got plenty of...
00:30:30
Speaker
contacts and friends and acquaintances who are nice, peace-loving people who really enjoy the most violent, awful horror film, so not you know, terrible things. If they can handle that, i would say, you know, if they're they're into horror and blood and guts, my goodness, get...
00:30:48
Speaker
Get Earthlings on. Well, there there is ah ah a a story, ah a true story of some vegan activists in USA. This is over 10 years ago, who on Halloween hired a a cinema or a screen at cinema saying, you know, come and see the the scariest film ever made. And once they were in the cinema, they put on Earthlings for people to watch. What they did was they had vegan treats and folks stood outside, like in the lobby, anticipating people coming out of the film either partway through or at the end. So they could accompany it with a conversation and say, you know, that I gather that would have been quite upsetting for you to watch and what have you. So it wasn't just ah a mean trick. I think it was just a mean trick. I don't think many people are going to be sympathetic to that.
00:31:42
Speaker
But you're absolutely right, Julie, like that the if if you're into true crime. You know, if you're into true suffering, then look
Alternatives to Graphic Content in Storytelling
00:31:50
Speaker
no further. Animal Ag would would do it. for for my For my tastes and my sensibilities and experience with these things, it's my experience that generally people don't get, people get turned off to like blood and guts, or some people do.
00:32:07
Speaker
um and indeed that can be a turn off legally in a trailer so when when we're talking about films and adverts being banned it's generally because it's violating some sort of guideline in in terms of graphic stuff being shown but some of the things that have made me most upset i've already related the you know the dog being put into the the garbage truck, but there was ah another film called a Peaceable Kingdom and there was a point in that, it's an animal rights film.
00:32:41
Speaker
showing animal ag and there was a point where loads of it was either geese or chickens but they had to be mass culled because of some infection or another and you just saw like a big lorry full of them having a big plastic tarpaulin being put over and then you were told that it was you know they were they were gassed or have you And I found that way more disturbing than when I've seen animals have their throats slit and things like that. And indeed, just being told about something, you could have a talking head of someone describing exactly what happens in animal agriculture. Or we've talked a lot about
00:33:22
Speaker
you know, exploitation for food, but in in terms of for entertainment and for other things, there's plenty of other animal exploitation. Just having the details put out there in the right tone, in the right setting with the right production values, it doesn't actually have to be witnessing animals dying that can be the most compelling thing. And as Marcus said, we're all...
00:33:46
Speaker
to some degree, protecting ourselves. I have to say, to my shame, if an advert comes on the TV and I see UNICEF's logo and I hear some harrowing music playing, I will just look away and just distract myself.
00:34:01
Speaker
Whereas if I was on Facebook and one of my very conscientious friends had written about some atrocity going on in another country, that that would get through my protection and i would I would take in that. So I think sometimes we don't have to be as blunt as...
00:34:23
Speaker
as we think might think we need to be. And I think in an age where we've got the means of of having these videos and this footage out there so that people can access it because it it should be made available. You know, that all the details of what happens in animal ag and and other exploiting industries.
00:34:42
Speaker
I just don't think it needs to be in every film because I think people are canny enough to be like, oh, if it's got that in, I'm not going to watch it. Well, there's other ways that we can get to people. Yes, there are other ways. And actually, wouldn't it be good if alongside all this, letting people know the truth, because the
Balancing Harsh Realities with Positive Vegan Portrayals
00:35:00
Speaker
danger is... Like with violent films, we don't want to make people inured to the violence in Animal Ag. So they go, oh yeah, that again. Oh, yeah, I've seen that. is You know what mean? Because it isn't as bad if you watch it again and then you watch it again.
00:35:14
Speaker
You know, you can start to not cry over some of it if you see it enough. so But I think what we also need is some more positive portrayals in in adverts, in films, in television, on in the internet, in real life, anything of better ways of relating to animals and relationships with animals because they will speak to people's you know, sense of justice and desire for peace and, you know, a happier, kinder life more than saying you're a bad person because you've bought meat today and this is how it got there. You know, there's a bit of a mileage in that. Of course there is. But I think there's also mileage in...
00:36:00
Speaker
this is a life you can have living in peace alongside animals. It's not all pious denial and nasty food and ill health and anemia and lack of protein and awfulness. It's a very healthy, happy life. And wouldn't you like some of this yourself, you know? and here is a way of relating to animals that's peaceful and joyful and respectful and it feels amazing. You know, I would be selling it that way at the same time. We don't have enough images of that and we don't perhaps, I don't know, I'm guessing, have a telly to watch films very often, but maybe we don't have...
00:36:39
Speaker
enough positive casually plant-based vegan based people in films or in the archers or you know on tv or whatever who aren't portrayed as you know the odd person out and very extreme and very this and very that we just need to normalize it and everything and just give people a good example of how it can be great did There is a way as well of if of
Shock Tactics in Vegan Advocacy
00:37:07
Speaker
flipping the script. And I've seen a few guys do this on a YouTube clips. There's a guy in Australia, a tall, lanky guy who looks like the singer from Midnight Oil, but it isn't him. And he spends his weekends doing a stuff like this. he he He'll set up a little stall with a a sign saying new farm produce pie samples here. So they're offering these free samples of ah of what what looks like a meat pie to pastors buy. It doesn't specify but but what sort of meat it is or whatever. And he he yeah offers it to people and some stop and take it and they go, oh, this is very nice. What animal is this? And he goes, oh, it's a Labrador. I'm breeding Labradors and I'm killing them. So you're eating a Labrador pie. And of course, almost universally, the reaction is they spit it out, they get angry, sometimes almost violent with the guy until he then calms them down, explains that it was actually a vegan pie they were eating. And why is it okay to be eating cow pie, but not dog pie? And it, it, it,
00:38:06
Speaker
It challenges people's perceptions and cultural conditioning in a way that is very immediate. You can do a similar thing with milk and offer and human breast milk rather than cow milk, even though it's just oat milk or whatever. And again, it it starts a discussion and challenges people's long-held perceptions about what what animals it is okay to eat and what animals are pets and or what animals should be locked up in zoos or whatever. So there are shock tactics that can, within seconds, flip the script that someone has about
00:38:42
Speaker
the relationship with the non-human animal world. And aside from a two-hour gory graphic ah movie, there are ways there are there are a street theater performance ways that you can go about doing doing doing this as well that rely on shock and people's hypocrisies around animals.
00:39:00
Speaker
that are, I think, very effective. Absolutely. I will leave listeners with one last
Positive Vegan Narratives in Advertising
00:39:05
Speaker
example. I not encountered this when this advert came out in 2015. I would have loved it because the world wasn't as vegan then. um But Vodafone's Christmas commercial in 2015 is called um Everything You Need Needs to Raise Turkeys. um And it looks like a child is raising a turkey. And then there's a sad moment where they're crying and the dad's taking the turkey off to a shed. oh i saw that yeah and there's a lovely happy ending i won't spoil it but it's a very vegan friendly ending and really lovely and positive and uplifting so yeah we can uh we can share the positives too can't we thank you very much julie and mark we are bringing our conversation to an end now if we've upset you if we've enlightened you if we've missed the point or if there's anything else you want to tell us we'd really like to hear from you here's how to get in touch
00:39:58
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
Listener Engagement: Feedback and Sharing
00:40:06
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:40:17
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com And remember too, we would absolutely love it if you could share this episode or any other episode with someone you know who would like it. You can leave us a five-star review. We would love that too. um And you can even just comment below each episode on Spotify.
00:40:39
Speaker
um And all of these things help more people hear the show. So we'd be most grateful if you could do those things. Mark, when is the next episode coming out? The next episode of Enough of the Falafel will be available from Monday, 22nd of December. It will be the first of our festive special episodes. Indeed. So we've got that one, which is going to have lots of messages from your Enough of the Falafel favourites. Then we've got a quiz coming out on Christmas Day. And we've got our two news awards ah shows coming out in the few days after that. so you've got four successive shows.
00:41:14
Speaker
special seasonal shows coming up. Lucky old you listeners. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks Mark and Anthony for all your contributions. Thanks again everyone for listening. I've been Julie and you've been listening to Vegan Talk, part of the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:41:43
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
00:41:54
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:42:24
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:42:45
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:43:00
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.