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Firm and Friendly Parenting: Ain't Misbehavin' With Guest Alyson Schafer, Part 1
17 Plays6 days ago
Welcome to Episode 13 of On the Ground Parenting and the first part of our multi-episode run with our special guest, Alyson Schafer! Alyson is a celebrated family counselor, international author, and expert in Adlerian psychology. The hosts, Sandy Inkster and Samantha Ennest-Wallis, explore the core of effective parenting, challenging the notion that there's "no manual for raising kids".
Alyson introduces Adlerian psychology as a "firm and friendly" parenting approach—a middle ground that respects both the child and the parent. She explains that this philosophy, pioneered by Alfred Adler, is evidence-based and counters the extremes of autocratic (firm without friendly) and permissive (friendly without firm) styles.
The hosts share highly personal moments, discussing the challenge of overcoming shame and embarrassment when a child's behavior isn't ideal. Alyson shares her experience having children with 36 late-slips her first year of school, but explains that this was part of a long-term plan to teach her kids punctuality and responsibility. The episode reinforces that parenting is an opportunity for personal growth, pushing every button a parent has and revealing where they are most vulnerable. The conversation concludes with the hope that, through intentional practice, respectful parenting will become easier and more natural with each passing generation.
Connect with Us
Find Alyson's books, podcast, and free resources at alysonschafer.com.
If you enjoyed this episode and want to sponsor or support the show, or even ask a question of our hosts, visit the Central Hub at linktr.ee/onthegroundparenting.
On the Ground Parenting is a production of Muskoka Family Focus's Parent Education Program. The podcast is produced, engineered, and published by Red Juice Studio.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's episode of On the Ground Parenting is made possible by the generous donations of our listeners. To learn more, look in the show notes or listen to the end of the episode.
Guest Introduction: Alison Schaefer
00:00:34
Speaker
Greetings, everyone, and welcome back to On the Ground Parenting. This is brought to you by the Muskoka Family Focus Parent Ed team. I'm Sandy, and I'm joined with my colleague, Sam. And the whole team is thrilled to bits that we have Alison Schaefer here today on this podcast. Welcome, Alison.
00:00:53
Speaker
Sandy, thank you. And nice to see you, Sam and Sandy. This is wonderful. I can't wait to dive into this conversation. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. And let's just start off by acknowledging everywhere that we see you, all of the opportunities we've had to receive support and input and information and guidance from you.
00:01:14
Speaker
So anyone who has children, maybe grandchildren, anyone who teaches, um maybe if you watch TV, listen to the radio, listen to podcasts, read blogs, you are already familiar with Alison, I bet.
00:01:29
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So Alison comes to us with her skills and expertise as a family counsellor. A TEDx presenter, TV and radio personality, columnist, spokesperson, educator, consultant, blogger, podcaster, and international bestselling author.
00:01:47
Speaker
Thank you, Alison, for being here. Basically, I just can't shut up. That's really what you're...
00:01:53
Speaker
I clearly have my favorite topic and I won't stop talking about it until someone kicks me down. all and Man, oh man, are we ever so grateful for that.
Alison's Family and Career Influences
00:02:04
Speaker
Let's just start off with, you have roots in Muskoka.
00:02:07
Speaker
I do. So we have a cottage just south Gravenhurst that's been in the family for ah hundred and, I think this is 150 fifth or seventh year. So my children are sixth generations, always in the same family. It's never had another owner, which is really rare for a family because usually cottages will split you up. and it's I share ah share it with my cousins. We've had to use all of our good family skills to keep that cottage going.
00:02:34
Speaker
And my parents chose to retire up in Gravenhurst. And my father became a very active community member and um worked with Muskoka Family Services and the Beaver Creek Correctional Institution, excuse me, and I may be getting some of these names wrong because I haven't read my father's resume in a while, but he was very deeply involved in the community and I really always wanted to give back.
00:02:55
Speaker
They now have ah an annual ah award that they give and in his name and it's just, it's really been very special to be able to help in a community that's given so much to my family.
00:03:07
Speaker
Well, You've just named one of the areas how I became familiar with you, and that was meeting your dad. I was involved at Beaver Creek. We had a family committee there, and your dad was involved in another committee, and we blended committees for a little while to give us some guidance.
00:03:24
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And so we had these family committee meetings, and at one meeting, he just slid this book across the table to me and he said, and my daughter's written a book. You might be interested in it.
00:03:35
Speaker
And anyway, so I was gifted your book, you know, by your dad. So that was, that was like the best treat ever. And I was reading it and reading it and I could hardly wait to see him again to, I wanted to talk about this and I wanted to talk about that. And so it was really wonderful. And of course, you know, a few years later,
00:03:57
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you did come to Beaver Creek and offer a workshop for dads who were incarcerated. And that was received exceptionally well. ah Oh, that touched my heart, you know, because my publishers said, we will get a copy of your book and give it as a gift to each of the gentlemen there.
00:04:12
Speaker
And they were so moved. They said, nobody ever gives us anything. they like they ah it To me, it was such a small gesture. And for them, it was such a huge gesture. It just, it really, really touched my heart.
The Basics of Adlerian Psychology
00:04:24
Speaker
And just so people know, I'm third generation Edlerian psychologist. So it isn't just that my dad's a great guy. I grew up with my parents teaching parent study in our living room.
00:04:35
Speaker
My father and my grandmother founded the Adler Institute of Ontario. And I have followed in his footsteps. He spent a lot of time spreading the word about Adlerian psychology. So I feel like the torch has been handed on to me. And um I hope I feel that he thinks I've done him right because he's certainly worked tirelessly to get these ideas out to the world. Mm-hmm.
00:04:58
Speaker
Well, let's get back to that. I want to know more about Ed Larian psychology and the whole approach. But I'd like to ask Sam, when did you first become informed about or meet Alison?
00:05:12
Speaker
Oh, I'm so glad that you asked me that because I was really hoping to share this story. So you came to do a speaking engagement for Muskoka Family Focus. It was at the Renee Case Theater in Bracebridge.
00:05:23
Speaker
Oh, yes. And it was, I'm not even kidding, it was the first time I'd actually been to any sort of a parent speaking engagement. So I was in a role with Muskoka Family Focus that had me going out to community events.
00:05:37
Speaker
And so i stuck around to hear you speak. And at that point in time, I was right in the trenches. I had four-year-old, two-year-old, and a newborn. And my four-year-old and two-year-old were actually my stepchildren.
00:05:51
Speaker
And I was really struggling. And I just remember you telling us this wonderful story about how once your child learns a task, once they figure out how to get that little sock on that little foot, that's theirs.
00:06:04
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That's their ball to hold. And it might take them a long time. And I just thought, oh, thank you so much for saying that because it aligned so much with what I was trying to do. And I had no idea if I was doing anything right at that point.
00:06:19
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So it just really was, it I hung on your every word after that point. It was a delight for me. Oh, that's so lovely. And that's a great venue. i think I came up there several times and presented there and and always in this very warm environment with lots of conversation after.
00:06:35
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I'm so thankful that you hosted me. That was a real treat for me too. I'm glad it's, I'm glad it stuck with you. it stuck. We've all got these wonderful times of the first time we we met Alison or we heard about Alison. And so let's get back to the why Adlerian psychology?
00:06:52
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What is ah important about this approach? How can it be a better way of being with people? Yeah. So I'll give my little elevator pitch because of course, you know, after tens of years of training, this is my favorite topic I could go on forever, but I'll be concise for the kind people listening to the podcast. Yeah.
00:07:10
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So people don't know
Parenting Approaches: Firm and Friendly
00:07:11
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the name Alfred Adler very well, but Alfred Adler, Carl Jung, and Sigmund Freud were the three gentlemen... who really moved psychology into its modern format. And they were intellectual sparring partners and they were all part of the analytical society.
00:07:26
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And then eventually their theories kind of broke apart and went into different ways. But they're kind of the great granddaddies of everything that we do now. And I would say that the Illyrian piece, Alfred Adler's part, first of all, he directly approached and wrote about parenting and classroom. He worked with the school systems, he worked with teachers.
00:07:46
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and So he had a real informative, robust body of knowledge to really dwell on there, which we do not see in in Freud or Carl Jung's work so much. And you could really sort of say that it was a humanistic, holistic approach that maybe modern people now would say,
00:08:03
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like Daniel Siegel and and humanistic positive psychology is sort of and another way of saying it. You might know those brand names a little bit better. And I think overall, when we're looking at parenting and we're looking at the science, we've got all these fancy names, you know, dolphin parenting and free range parenting and helicopter parenting and snow. I don't know, throw another name at gentle parenting. Ah, there's so many names that confuses parents to no end.
00:08:29
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But the truth is there there really is only from a scientific point of view, they're looking at this combination of firm and friendly. And so firm and friendly at the same time is what we call this form of parenting.
00:08:43
Speaker
So sometimes it's very easy for people to be very firm, but they have a hard time with the friendly and that sort of that autocratic principle. past that most people in European and North American society probably grew up with kind of like mom and dad have all the power. They, you know, mind my will do as I say, don't ask questions. You know, I use punishment to keep you in line and you'll fear me and that'll, you know, keep you in in shape.
00:09:07
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And then we kind of threw that out when we realized that that kind of hurt children's self-esteem. And we did more research on how children actually are impacted by parenting styles and And then we got really permissive. And so we saw a lot of the friendly, friendly, friendly, and the pendulum swung too far in the other direction. And we just forgot how to be firm.
00:09:25
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And so we got a lot of really friendly parents out there, but these kids are chaotic now. They they don't know what a boundary is. They don't know how to do any discipline. So this is really that middle ground that combines the two. And it comes with like a very large toolbox of techniques that And so it's that combination, firm and friendly parenting that shows respect to the child, but also respect to the parent. You know, it's not okay for your kid to kick you in the shins and, you know, spit in your face when they get off the school bus. It's not okay.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah. And I like that. It's reassuring for everyone to realize that Alfred Adler had a lab Being the teacher and being so closely connected with educators and being surrounded by children, because I think a classroom is a variation of a family.
00:10:10
Speaker
There's a parent figure and their sibling rivalry. 100%. Yeah. And so he was gathering data all the time. So I think we can be reassured in the fact that this is very deeply evidence based.
00:10:23
Speaker
Oh, yes. There's all kinds of research that supports this. I'm not, you know, I mean, obviously I'm a fan, but this isn't just my opinion. we have We have lots of research that shows that this is where we want to be doing our best for the outcomes for our kids in terms of mental health and preventing juvenile delinquency and you know early pregnancy and onset of drug use. like We've got tons and tons of research that this is the way to go.
00:10:50
Speaker
It's just hard to do. It's just hard to do. it just It means you have to learn a new skill set because this wasn't really modeled to us. And that even though he you know is it's 100 years since his passing and and even more so, we really don't have a lot of people that, I mean, I thank God that I'm third generation in my family. So Just the way there's intergenerational trauma, I actually had intergenerational success. You know, i was I was really bathed in this way of growing up. So it seems natural to me, but I work with parents and they come from all different cultures and all different backgrounds. And this is very foreign, very foreign to them.
00:11:29
Speaker
And so there is a lot of skills training and it doesn't feel natural to everybody.
Parenting Challenges and Personal Growth
00:11:34
Speaker
Some people a little bit more than others, but mostly what parents will say is I want to be respectful to my kid. I don't like to be punitive.
00:11:42
Speaker
You know, parents don't get thrills and giggles from being hurtful, but what they want to do is be effective. And if you don't quite get the tools, you done properly, if you're ineffective and you don't understand the dynamic, you get very frustrated. And in our own frustration, we tend to default back to how we were raised and what we know.
00:12:03
Speaker
In a time of conflict, we kind of go back to our comfort zone, even if we don't like our comfort zone. It's like, yeah, you know what? I yelled again. Yeah, you know what? I nagged again. Or Well, I didn't want the kid to be late because I don't want the teacher thinking poorly of me. So i went ahead and put the shoes and the socks on, even though I know they could have done it on their own. I, you know, I i know better, but I just couldn't pull it off today. You know, we've all done that.
00:12:26
Speaker
We're all imperfect parents. Imperfect beings. Yeah. Imperfect parents. And, you know, what comes to mind for me is this whole idea of my own emotions in that moment.
00:12:36
Speaker
it's when I don't get the response from my child. So maybe when I'm shaping up, I'm using a skill verbally, I'm respectful, I'm being firm, I'm being friendly, and I'm not getting that response back from the child in that moment. And depending on where I'm at, maybe there's embarrassment, maybe there's fear, maybe I've got anger. Sam, has anything arisen for you that you can identify with in that regard? Absolutely. And So I speak very openly, Alison, about the fact that both of my children are autistic.
00:13:07
Speaker
Both of my biological boys are autistic, which provides a whole other set of challenges quite often. And to be able to let go of that embarrassment piece was a huge win in my parenting journey.
00:13:21
Speaker
And it doesn't even factor in anymore for me as much. I mean, I won't say it doesn't factor in. Of course it does, but not to the same degree as it did when they were younger. So my newborn that I was talking about now 21 and my youngest is 14.
00:13:37
Speaker
But I certainly have those feelings at times where i always feel like it's bubbling up inside of me, that comfort zone, that way I was parented. And I had wonderful parents.
00:13:48
Speaker
who did the best they could with their skills. But I always feel the yelling is the thing, right? Like that was the thing. My mom was a yeller. And so when I feel the yelling bubbling up inside of me, I know that I'm getting well off track and that I need to take a breath and acknowledge my own emotions in that moment.
00:14:06
Speaker
And then we can try to move forward together again. But that whole embarrassment piece ruled me for a long time as a parent. It really, really did.
00:14:17
Speaker
I think that we have to look at our children as an opportunity for personal growth because they're going to push every one of your buttons. You're going to find out where you're vulnerable. You're going to find out where you're reactive.
00:14:31
Speaker
And you can either get angry about that and say like, I i didn't ask for this this morning. Or you can just be really curious about it and be super compassionate with yourself.
00:14:41
Speaker
and say, wow, like I really have some learning to do about myself and why is that embarrassment and how strong is my ego strength and why do I need the approval of the teacher? You know, I mean, I remember my first year getting my kids to school. i think they had like 36 pink slips for being late.
00:14:59
Speaker
On first flush,
Future of Parenting and Adlerian Concepts
00:15:00
Speaker
it would have looked like if you were just doing it day to day, you would have said, can this mother not get her children to school on time? But for me, I was working a plan whereby i wanted my kids to take responsibility for being punctual.
00:15:14
Speaker
And I didn't care whether they were, I mean, obviously cared that they were on school, but I'm like the year to teach this is the year that the biggest thing you're going to miss is whether or not the teddy bear has like its little scarf on when they're doing the weather calendar.
00:15:26
Speaker
I don't want this to be when they're in university and I'm paying for their tuition and they're not getting out of bed to get to school on time because I'm still waking them up, you know? And so I had to take the longer road and And look at the longer goals, knowing that in the moment, it might look really messy. It might look terrible. might look like an incompetent parent. But because I had my training behind me, I had the confidence of the philosophy behind me, and I'd done the parent education.
00:15:53
Speaker
and I had the ego strength from my parents showing me how to have the courage to be imperfect. I could kind of push through that. But I you know I got the benefit of all that, you know? And so I'll be very interested to see how it goes with my kids when when when they become parents, because they're now 30 and 31. They both got married this year.
00:16:12
Speaker
And I'll see how they approach things. I feel like every generation gets a little healthier and a little healthier and a little healthier because I did apply my learning So what would have been a few generations, something that you had to learn in a course or a textbook or a a blog or an Instagram reel or however people picking up information in different ways.
00:16:33
Speaker
I think my kids and I had more the lived felt experience. And I hope that that carries them far. And that I hope that for every generation that continues to pass on this style of respectful parenting that with each generation, it becomes a little bit more natural, a little bit easier, a little bit more modeled to us so that it's a little bit more comfortable and it doesn't have to feel so like learning a skill set because we would have seen it happen in our homes. And I think every generation it'll get easier and easier.
00:17:05
Speaker
Well,
Conclusion and Guest Resources
00:17:06
Speaker
thank you for joining us today. Even though that's a wrap, it's not complete, everyone. We have more Alison Schaefer. So come back next Wednesday for our continuing conversation with Alison.
00:17:18
Speaker
You can find more information about Alison at alisonschaefer.com. A-L-Y-S-O-N. a l y s o n S-C-H-A-F-E-R.com, alisonschafer.com.
00:17:31
Speaker
And On The Ground Parenting, as you know, you can find us on YouTube or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Catch us there. See next Wednesday.
00:18:00
Speaker
On the Ground Parenting is a production of Muskoka Family Focus Parent Education Program. If you enjoyed this episode and want to sponsor or support the show, or even ask a question of our host, visit the Central Hub at linktr.ee forward slash on the ground parenting.
00:18:16
Speaker
On the Ground Parenting is produced, engineered, and published by Red Juice Studio. To learn more, visit redjuicestudio.com forward slash nonprofits. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next Wednesday On the Ground Parenting.