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The Long Game: Ain't Misbehavin' - Part 2 of our chat with Alyson Schafer
11 Plays1 day ago
Welcome to Episode 14 of On the Ground Parenting, the second part of our special series with international best-selling author and Adlerian psychologist, Alyson Schafer! The conversation picks up where it left off, reinforcing that our children offer us an opportunity for personal growth. Alyson continues to offer insight into the Adlerian framework, challenging the idea that more parenting information always makes things easier.
Alyson introduces a vital Adlerian concept: goal-directed behaviour. She explains that a child's so-called misbehaviour is actually a "mistaken approach" —a creative, smart way for them to solve a problem and achieve a goal, like getting more attention or delaying bedtime. She stresses that children act this way at a pre-conscious level and are not being deliberately mischievous.
The hosts conclude with the realization that we cannot keep everyone happy all the time. Alyson offers a comforting reminder that the "thank you" you're looking for from your kids won't come in the moment, but rather in the quality of the relationship you've built over the longer game.
In This Episode
- [04:12] The hurdle of overwhelming information and the need for an organizing framework.
- [06:00] Using the Adlerian philosophy as a "periodic table" to discern information and avoid being overwhelmed.
- [07:08] The differentiator: understanding children's behaviour as goal-directed.
- [08:18] A child's "misbehaviour" is really a creative problem-solving effort to reach a goal.
- [10:31] Why punishment doesn't work: children act at a pre-conscious level and often don't know why they do what they do.
- [11:39] Well-behaved children tend to get ignored, and off-task behaviour gets engagement.
- [13:38] The subjectivity of the child: two siblings can have the exact same experience but interpret it completely differently.
- [16:36] The longer game: the thank you will come back in the quality of the relationship and their continued desire to spend time with you.
Connect with Us
Find Alyson's books, podcast, and free resources at alysonschafer.com.
If you enjoyed this episode and want to sponsor or support the show, or even ask a question of our hosts, visit the Central Hub at linktr.ee/onthegroundparenting.
On the Ground Parenting is a production of Muskoka Family Focus' Parent Education Program. The podcast is produced, engineered, and published by Red Juice Studio.
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Transcript
Introduction and Funding
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's episode of On the Ground Parenting is made possible by the generous donations of our listeners. To learn more, look in the show notes or listen to the end of the episode.
Guest Introduction: Alison Schaefer
00:00:35
Speaker
Last week, we started with our guest, Alison Schaefer. And if you didn't catch the first episode, you need to go back and listen to that first episode. Alison is a family counselor, TEDx presenter, TV and radio personality, columnist, spokesperson, educator, consultant, blogger, podcaster, as well as an international bestselling author.
00:00:58
Speaker
That's right, folks. She offers a lot for us parents. Check her out.
Influence of Alfred Adler on Parenting
00:01:04
Speaker
Last week we were talking about what is Adlerian psychology? How does Alfred Adler influence parenting from the holistic or humanistic approach?
00:01:14
Speaker
And Alison's last reflection or comment sharing to us parents was about how we can actually look at our children as an opportunity for personal growth.
00:01:25
Speaker
We can be curious. We can be compassionate. Are you curious? So let's jump back into the conversation that Sam and I were having with Alison. I think my kids and I had more the lived felt experience.
00:01:39
Speaker
And I hope that that carries them far. And that I hope that for every generation that continues to pass on this style of respectful parenting, that with each generation, it becomes a little bit more natural, a little bit easier, a little bit more modeled to us so that it's a little bit more comfortable and it doesn't have to feel so like Learning a skill set because we would have seen it happen in our homes. And I think every generation it'll get easier
Experiences in Cooperative Nursery Schools
00:02:06
Speaker
and easier.
00:02:06
Speaker
A little more familiar. And i guess I guess the one thing that is coming to mind for me is, so when my children were young, we had a cooperative nursery school in that if you didn't cooperate with the structure, then it wouldn't work.
00:02:19
Speaker
So we we didn't have a you know a paid teacher. We had parents who took turns and we'd have family on site because we were in a church basement type of thing. And and while we were waiting for our children who were in another room with some other adults, we decided to bring in some parenting workshops.
Early Exposure to Parenting Workshops
00:02:37
Speaker
So that was how I was introduced to. and that time it was how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk. classic, classic book that every single person should read. Whether you have kids or not, it's a communication book that for the workplace. I mean, say that all the time. It's a classic. Yeah. yeah That's where I was exposed. And I think maybe my son was three years old and, you know, he's in his forties now. And,
00:03:02
Speaker
But then it became something that I wanted to know more about. So, you know, I had parents who were available, parents who were attentive, parents who were responsive, and and also parents who were still working on their own skills coming from a vast background.
00:03:17
Speaker
So there were times when there were, you know, hiccups glitches to the plan. But I wanted to know more and I wanted to be able to relate with my children in a different way. I could, and even in society, society was changing.
00:03:29
Speaker
for me as a human being in the 80s at that point. So I feel that it's that regular exposure that I have had, then becoming interested in continuing to read, continuing to seek it, to listen, and to be a parented facilitator. It keeps me sort of, you know, immersed in the the way of being.
00:03:52
Speaker
Because I know it's hard. Like I may be able to hear myself and think I want to make change, but how do I make that change? I guess maybe that's the part I want to say to you. what What can parents do when they hear that voice or they feel that emotion and they know i want to be more supportive? i want to be I want to be more effective in my role
The Overwhelm of Parenting Information
00:04:12
Speaker
as a parent.
00:04:12
Speaker
I would say that one of the problems, let's say challenge or hurdle, let's use that language instead, is that parents have more access to information on parenting than we've ever had before.
00:04:26
Speaker
And that that increase in ways to get information on parenting, unfortunately, has the downside of confusing parents. And they can be very overwhelmed.
00:04:37
Speaker
You know, I'm not, I'm never supposed to say no, or I'm supposed to use this tone or I'm supposed to rub. you There's so much information and parents love their children and they want to do right, do good. But they're like, but how there's everyone is sort of telling me different things and it's getting so granular and they're paranoid. It's like, oh, if I put the fork in the wrong hand and you know, you like they're there's, they think kids are fragile they They take it almost too seriously.
00:05:04
Speaker
And so there's a big part of just saying, yes, seek out parent education and relax and trust yourself and know that there's also intuition and lots of room to make mistakes because you are just a humble human and you're not going to break the primary attachment with your child. You know, if one day you'll lose your mind and you're late for work and you scream,
00:05:28
Speaker
You don't have to open up the bank account for all the therapy sessions they're going to need when they're in their 20s. I think that they're much more robust then than we think they are. And um so I think we're terribly hard on ourselves around wanting to get parenting right.
00:05:43
Speaker
So
Adlerian Psychology as a Parenting Framework
00:05:44
Speaker
that's one thing. And then the second thing is, and this is where I feel, again, that I'm so thankful for Adlerian psychology, because I feel like in Adlerian psychology, because it's not just about parenting, it's about human beings and how they operate. So to me, it's like having the periodic table.
00:06:00
Speaker
So if I'm reading something from Dr. Becky or if I'm reading something from somebody else on the internet or whatever, I've already got this framework for how human development works.
00:06:11
Speaker
And I can take that 30-second Instagram reel or that article from the Atlantic Monthly or, you know, And I can plug it into this overall framework of how human beings operate that helps me not get overwhelmed, that helps me organize the information.
00:06:28
Speaker
So it's c incredibly useful for me so that I can filter through information. And I think if you don't have that structure, I too would be very overwhelmed and not really know what to do with the amount of information that is now available ah to parents.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah,
Understanding Goal-Directed Behavior
00:06:46
Speaker
yeah. Thanks very much. I think that that's very helpful. And I think the word that comes to mind too, for me, is it helps me to discern. h And I would say too, just while I'm, you know, given a good old marketing um slog here for Adlerian psychology, that one of the differentiators, because we talked about it kind of falling into the holistic, firm and friendly style of parenting.
00:07:08
Speaker
But there's another piece that I think is a differentiator that I love teaching because it really gives parents an incredible amount of aha moments is this one concept, which is about goal-directed behavior.
00:07:22
Speaker
And if I can just take example, quick minute to just help parents understand why that's so important. I talk about in my parenting classes, even if you don't own a dog, people kind of know dog behaviors. And I say, if you have a dog and it is sitting next to the food bowl and the bowl is empty and your dog is barking, what is going on there? How do we describe what what is going on with that barking behavior, right?
00:07:45
Speaker
And so when you have a goal-oriented understanding of human behavior, it means that you are doing something in order to make a future occurrence happen. So that dog has been socialized to know that if I stand by my bowl and I bark, you're going to put kibble in it. And so the dog's motivation is to get fed.
00:08:04
Speaker
Now, Freud would have said it was the hunger drive. It was driven, that it was causative. And so a lot of parents in hearing other theories of human behavior will go on in a kind of causative orientation.
00:08:18
Speaker
And we're very focused on what is the usefulness of this behavior. So when you have a kid who says, read one more book, I want one more book, and they'll get me a water, and they'll get my teddy bear. The usefulness is bedtime was supposed to be half an hour ago, but this kid has figured out how to rope in their parent with all these requests that the parent can't say no to.
00:08:39
Speaker
And this child is learning that I can get a longer tuck in if I keep asking and for things. And so kids get very wise at watching your behavior. And so for us to take responsibility to say that when there is I like to call it a mistaken approach rather than a misbehavior. This isn't a kid trying to be bad. This is a kid solving a problem in a very creative, smart way. Oh, say that again. Say that again.
00:09:07
Speaker
is not a child who is misbehaving to be bad. This is a very smart child who is being a creative problem solver. And they have learned from your past responses what effectively helps them reach their goals. So they don't think about, I'm a good person, I'm a bad person.
00:09:25
Speaker
They say what's effective and what's not effective. And so if I, you know, keep saying, I'm afraid of the boogeyman and you need to read me one more story and I need a glass of water now, and I need to have one more pee.
00:09:36
Speaker
And they realize that those are all things that are going to delay bedtime. What kid wouldn't put together that that's a smart way to get more time with you and delay bedtime? They're just smart.
00:09:47
Speaker
And all of that happens at a pre-conscious level. I think that's a really important thing for parents to know. They're not doing this to be mischievous. They're not doing this in an ill-willed way.
00:09:58
Speaker
They don't know why they do what they do. In therapy, we never ask a child, you know, why do you, they can't answer that. Now, I can say to them, do you think sometimes you, you know, tell your mommy that you need another glass of water because you'd actually like to hang out with her a little bit longer in the evening? And then you'll see what we call the recognition reflex, where you get the little glimmer.
00:10:18
Speaker
And that reflex is literally the first time that that child has the appreciation that something in their pre-conscious mind has come into their prefrontal cortex. Now we can go about making change.
Misbehavior as Creative Problem-Solving
00:10:31
Speaker
But up until that little glimmery, glinty look in their eyes, they honestly did not know why they were doing. So when parents punish them thinking that they're going to learn, it's such an unfair...
00:10:43
Speaker
And so it they don't know why they do what they do. So say going to your room and think about it or I'm going to spank you is it's not going to change behavior. but so I feel like when I learned about goal-directed behavior amongst a whole bunch of other things, honestly, Sandy, I thought it was like i someone had told me the cure for childhood cancer.
00:11:01
Speaker
And I just could not not share that information because it was such a sea change in having compassion for my kids and understanding this dynamic and understanding how what I was doing.
00:11:12
Speaker
was actually leading to my kids' misbehavior. And then I was blaming them, how I was part of the dance, how I was participating and in giving them a usefulness for their behavior. I was like, wow, the world needs to know about this. Yeah.
00:11:26
Speaker
And thank you. And it's and it's like it's contrary the contact situation. ah contact that they're trying to achieve. Yes. Well, you know, what's that old saying, you know, bad press is better than no press at all.
00:11:39
Speaker
The truth of the matter is well-behaved children tend to get ignored because they self-entertain and they, whatever, you know, I was a nursery school teacher and if everyone's like sitting in circle time with their little, you know, when you crossed your legs, we called to putting your mountains up.
00:11:51
Speaker
The one kid who leaves and goes off and starts playing with the blocks while you're the teacher, you're like, no, Timmy, come back to the circle. Come on, Timmy. And suddenly all the kids who are behaving look around and why is the teacher spending all his time with Timmy?
00:12:03
Speaker
So then the next kid gets up and the third kid gets up and the next thing you you've got chaos in your classroom because they learn well-behaved kids get no engagement. And the ones that are off task get all the correction and time and attention and they don't care.
00:12:16
Speaker
That's engagement. It's better than being ignored, right? Mm-hmm. So we really have to spend more time being super engaged with the behaviors we'd like to see again. Like, look at you putting on your pants all on your ah Look at you.
00:12:29
Speaker
You made it through the whole dinner time and you didn't talk with your mouth full once. That's not usually what kids hear. They usually hear set up straight, chew with your mouth closed. Don't spill your milk. Usually they get accustomed to being off track and getting corrected because that's the only way they can get on your radar. And especially if there's a sibling competing for time and attention.
00:12:49
Speaker
I was just thinking about that sibling piece because there is such a difference in age between my two children. And it really has been very much like raising separate families because my skill level is so much higher now than it was when my 21-year-old was 14.
00:13:06
Speaker
And he'll rub my nose in it all the time. Well, I don't understand why Ryan gets away with that because I never would have gotten away with that at his age. I'm like, well... My skill set has changed. Very different children. You you know, these are just all of the circumstances. I'm sorry that that's how you remember it.
00:13:24
Speaker
I did the best I could at the time with the information and tools I had. And he usually walks away grumbling. But it just it's just very entertaining to me because, you know, he didn't get the best of me as a parent. And I i wish he had, but he got the best of me at the time. So...
00:13:38
Speaker
One of the other things that we need to remember is the subjectivity of the child.
Children's Perception of Parenting
00:13:43
Speaker
So I grew up in a home. So we took in draft dodgers. A lot of people were were fleeing conscription at the time when I was growing up in the 60s and early 70s.
00:13:52
Speaker
We took in ah unwed single mothers who were like put out on the street. And so my house was kind of like half of a halfway house, you know, four kids. We all, we had, you know, it was a two bedroom house.
00:14:04
Speaker
So people just so were kind of in the basement and on couches, but my parents would always take people in. And I thought that was one of the greatest things about my childhood, that my parents kind of always had a pallet on the floor for anybody.
00:14:15
Speaker
But if you ask my siblings who had exactly the same experience, they They have very different opinions about what it was like sharing their time. And one time I had to sleep in the bathtub. And um and and so you can have exactly the same experience and two different kids are going to interpret it their own way.
00:14:34
Speaker
And that's, that really can't be beholden to us to think that I'm going to parent things exactly right so that nobody has some little chip on their shoulder. Because all of us have some little bad memory of, oh, we went to Howard Johnson's and my brother got the whipped cream on his hot chocolate and I never got the whipped cream and that just, you and you're like, I don't even remember that trip. I don't even remember hot chocolate.
00:14:54
Speaker
What are you talking about? This has bothered you your whole life? Yeah. Kids will just grab onto something. And if you're a parent thinking you're going to do everything so right that every moment is going to be remembered perfectly, I'm telling you, it's never going to happen. No, definitely.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good way to wrap up is knowing that we aren't going to be able to keep everyone happy all the time, especially when we've got more than one child. And yes, and just moving forward and doing the best that we can and taking a look at what Alison had suggested as far as being mindful that we do have an intuition that influences us as well too, and to not stifle that voice.
00:15:35
Speaker
Sometimes when we're inundated and overwhelmed by information, it It clouds it and we we're hesitant. We're not too sure. And I think if we bring in a little bit of quiet, then that allows that voice to to come to the forefront.
00:15:50
Speaker
And so ah just as we're wrapping up, Alison, could you even just give a little reminder for everyone that kids won't thank us?
Understanding What a Healthy Home Looks Like
00:15:58
Speaker
Kids won't thank us for, you know, maybe the discipline or this practice or, you know, those boundaries or those limits. Just a reminder, a gentle reminder about that.
00:16:09
Speaker
Kids actually do know what a healthy home looks and feels like. And even if it bothers them, you know, that I have a bedtime and I have a curfew and all these things and they'll give you pushback, right? It's our job to set boundaries and it's their job to find them by testing them, but they know what a healthy home looks like. And are they going to volunteer that up to you and say like, thanks so much for, you know, quelching my every desire? No, you're not going to get that.
00:16:36
Speaker
But what you are going to get is ah a child who absolutely loves you and who still wants to come home for Thanksgiving and wants to spend free time with you and still hang out on vacations when they're grownups. And so the it really is that longer game down the road.
00:16:53
Speaker
That's where you're going to see the thank yous. Even if it's not in language, it's going to come back by the quality of that relationship that you built and they will respect you.
00:17:03
Speaker
for being strong enough to have set the tone of a healthy house, even if they don't say it verbally in the moment. Thank you. Thank you. And how can people find you?
Resources and Contact Information
00:17:15
Speaker
I would say the best thing, Sandy and Sam, is my website because everything is on my website. So it's alisonschafer.com. And from there, it has my webinars and my books and my podcast and there's all kinds of free resources on there for parents. So go like pop around, but it's got my Instagram handles and all those things. So,
00:17:35
Speaker
land there and then you can follow me anywhere. That's super. Alison, we really appreciate that you took the time to be with us. ah This has just been so refreshing and exhilarating.
00:17:46
Speaker
Thank you very much. And we look forward to chatting with you again. oh please have me back anytime. I hope I've piqued the interest of parents to want to dig more into this topic and this framework and whether you learn it from me or some other Adlerian parent educators, it doesn't matter to me, but discovering this philosophy, if I get that word out, then I kind of feel like i've I'm doing my life mission. So thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Yahoo. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thanks. On the ground parenting.
00:18:18
Speaker
We'll see you next week. Farewell.
00:18:39
Speaker
On the Ground Parenting is a production of Muskoka Family Focus Parent Education Program.
Support and Inquiries
00:18:44
Speaker
If you enjoyed this episode and want to sponsor or support the show, or even ask a question of our host, visit the Central Hub at linktr.ee forward slash on the ground parenting.
00:18:55
Speaker
On the Ground Parenting is produced, engineered, and published by Red Juice Studio. To learn more, visit redjuicestudio.com forward slash nonprofits. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next Wednesday on On the Ground Parenting.