Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Individual Awakening and Collective Transformation w/ Michael Sapiro - Connecting Minds Podcast Ep07
94 Plays4 years ago
Watch this episode in video: https://youtu.be/NL6STpEe6RY
Shownotes here: https://christianyordanov.com/07-michael-sapiro/
It's a great honour and privilege to present our guest today, Dr Michael Sapiro. We talk about why we suffer and how to use his ACORNS methodology to help us through it. We end the episode with Michael's Hope guided meditation!
Michael Sapiro, PsyD, is a clinical psychologist, Dharma teacher, writer, meditation researcher, and former Buddhist monk. He is on faculty at Esalen Institute, is a Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, and is completing a study on time travel, hope, and love with Dr. Julia Mossbridge of The Institute for Love and Time. Dr. Sapiro completed his postdoctoral fellowship in advanced psychology at the Boise VA Medical Center where he specialized in rural health, PTSD, and combat trauma. Dr. Sapiro is often on podcasts, and teaches nationally on the art and science of transformation, expanded human capabilities, self-care, and nondual meditation for personal and community growth. His work integrates meditation practices, psychology, noetic sciences, and social justice, and is dedicated to personal awakening for the sake of collective and planetary transformation. He can be found at michaelsapiro.com.
Links to Michael’s resources and social media:
Website: https://www.michaelsapiro.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_mike_boise/
Guided meditations: https://www.michaelsapiro.com/resources/#meditations
Link to essay mentioned: https://medium.com/@drmichaelsapiro/down-play-or-walk-away-how-my-dog-socialized-me-to-be-wiser-and-kinder-during-covid-19-5b06bfc0ea0a
Topics discussed on this episode:
- Mike’s background and the work he does as a clinician and researcher.
- The non-dual teaching.
- Why are humans suffering so much? Craving, contention, ignorance.
- Recognition is a medicine.
- Practicing love, compassion and forgivess is an antidote to contention, anger and hatred.
- What are our true needs that our destructive behaviours are trying to fulfil?
- Self-awareness is the first step.
- ACORNS: From Awareness to Action – An awareness and compassion-based model for living a life of wisdom and ease
- Awareness
- Calm
- Open-hearted
- Reflect – clarity of situation, what needs are not being met?
- Now what? Ready to problem solve..
- Skillful action – take the action you just discerned as wise
- Applying ACORNS to tough issues such as grief, loss of a loved one, or our own mortality.
- The power of loving kindness.
- Psychedelics can give us a glimpse into the oneness that we all are.
- Individual awakening and the radiating presence and love it brings facilitates healing and transformation for others.
- The Bodhisattva vow.
- We end with the Hope Guided Meditation.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Connecting Minds Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Connecting Minds is a space dedicated to honoring the amazing authors, researchers, clinicians, artists, and entrepreneurs who are contributing to our collective evolution or simply making the world a better place. These thought-provoking conversations are intended to expand our horizons, so come with an open mind and let us grow together.
Meet Dr. Michael Sapiro: Psychologist & Former Monk
00:00:30
Speaker
Here is your host, Christian Yordanov.
00:00:41
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Connecting Minds podcast. My name is Christian Jordonov and I'm so glad you are here with me today. This is episode seven of the podcast and today on the show we have Dr. Michael Sapiro.
00:00:57
Speaker
A little bit about Michael. Michael Sapiro Saidi is a clinical psychologist, Dharma teacher, writer, meditation researcher, and former Buddhist monk. He's on the faculty at Esalen Institute, is a fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, and is completing a study on time travel hope
00:01:19
Speaker
and love with Dr. Julia Mossbridge at the Institute for Love and Time. Dr. Sapiro completed his postdoctoral fellowship in advanced psychology at the Boise VA Medical Center where he specialized in rural health
00:01:34
Speaker
PTSD and combat trauma. Dr. Shapiro is often on podcasts and teaches nationally on the art and science of transformation, expanded human capabilities, self-care, and non-dual meditation for personal
00:01:51
Speaker
community growth. His work integrates meditation practices, psychology, noetic sciences, and social justice and is dedicated to personal awakening for the sake of collective and planetary transformation.
Understanding Human Suffering & The ACORN Methodology
00:02:07
Speaker
He can be found at mikosapiro.com
00:02:10
Speaker
So today on the podcast, I think an overarching theme that we tackled was why do we suffer as individuals, as humans? What causes our suffering? Namely, the themes of craving, contention, and ignorance. So these are kind of the main overarching themes from which most suffering stems from.
00:02:35
Speaker
And so michael gives us a lot of insights about that and then he. Discusses methodology of his cold acorns that one can go from awareness to action so.
00:02:51
Speaker
We will discuss that in a lot more detail, but basically ACORN stands for Awareness, Calm, Openhearted, Reflect, Now What, and Skillful Action. So these are basically the stages where one can go from awareness of be it suffering, an issue, a problem to the skillful action that can help them get out of the problem. So really,
00:03:19
Speaker
I love the practicability of this methodology and of course the acronym makes it easy to remember. So we discussed this methodology of his which has been received really well by clinicians that he's presented it to.
00:03:41
Speaker
And we also end the podcast with Michael guides us through a meditation called his hope meditation. So that's a little treat for you at the end. Now, if you are out and about and you don't have time to sit down to do a guided meditation,
00:03:59
Speaker
Feel free to skip the last 10-12 minutes of the podcast. But I will also publish it as a separate mini episode that you can download on your phone. And anytime you just want to sit down and focus on your breathwork, take a little break from the crazy lives we lead, whatever, I will have that Hope Guided Meditation by Michael available for you to download and listen to.
Integrating Buddhist Meditation with Psychology
00:04:28
Speaker
I feel really privileged and honored that he came on the podcast. He's just full of so many insights and wisdom and I am extremely glad that I can share this with you and a wider audience. So I hope you enjoy it. I hope you get as much value out of it as I did.
00:04:50
Speaker
And without further ado, here is Dr. Michael Sapiro. Today on the Connecting Minds podcast, we have Dr. Michael Sapiro. Mike, thanks so much for spending the time with us today. Oh, thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. Great. So to start off with, can you tell the listeners, what do you do? What do I do? It's an integration of
00:05:19
Speaker
a variety of practices and science. So I'm a clinical psychologist by trade. I have about 25 years of Buddhist meditation training that I integrate into my psychology practice. I also conduct research. So I work for various organizations and institutes doing research on meditation and consciousness.
00:05:45
Speaker
And then I work in the social justice field too, because what I found is, and I know that's a loaded word unfortunately, but what it really means is we're making sure that everyone has equal access to resources. And so what I found throughout my life is that it's hard not to care for.
00:06:03
Speaker
people who are marginalized and oppressed, the deeper I go into my practice, it becomes more apparent how taking care of everyone in our society is a central part of our spiritual practice. So I do psychology, I see patients, I teach courses and workshops, and I do research, basically.
00:06:24
Speaker
And so you have about 25 years of Buddhist meditation experience. I know you've studied in the Thai forest Buddhism tradition. Could you tell us what is that and what other teachers have you learned from over the course of your life?
00:06:46
Speaker
Sure. So the
The ACORN Model for Personal Transformation
00:06:48
Speaker
25 years is divided up into kind of two main traditions. The first eight years or so I studied Zen Buddhism and I had about three different teachers that I studied under, including spending a year in a Zen temple as a lay resident, not as a monk. That was in Oregon. And so I have three different teachers in the Zen tradition. And then I moved to Thailand and ended up studying
00:07:17
Speaker
with local monks where I used to live and then decided to ordain as a monk and I spent a little time in the forest as a monk. But the forest tradition is as close to the traditional tradition that the Buddha came from as you can find. Not that it's better than other traditions, just I'm saying it's as closely tied to the original practices.
00:07:39
Speaker
And so Buddhism really went in kind of a couple different directions up through from India to China and Korea and Japan and became what we know as Zen. It branched down through Sri Lanka and Cambodia and Thailand and Laos and became what kind of more the Vipassana Theravada tradition. So I studied in those two. Tibet has its own kind of rich history and lineage.
00:08:09
Speaker
And so currently I study under James Bares. He's out of Berkeley, California. He's very closely tied to Jack Kornfield. And I also study in a non-dual yogic tradition for about the same period of time. And the last 10 or so years studied with Richard Miller here in the States. So I infuse non-duality and Buddhist traditions together in my teaching.
00:08:36
Speaker
And what is non-duo yoga or yogic teachings or traditions?
00:08:43
Speaker
So they came from various regions of India. My traditional path came from the north of India and the Kashmir Shaivism tradition. It supposes that everything we're looking for is already here. A dualistic practice says you start here, you practice hard in these various ways, and you end here.
00:09:08
Speaker
transformation and enlightenment is here, and this is where you're starting from, and you have to kind of go through a certain path to get to this stage. And that's not untrue. We do have to train ourselves and practice to get from where we are to where we want to go. But the non-dual tradition says, at the same time you're practicing to get here, this thing is already here underneath it all, behind it all. So what I'm
00:09:36
Speaker
deep into my human experience of suffering and pain, anxiety. Actually, when I rest in just being, just quiet being, underneath the chatter or the pain, what I'm looking for is already there, which is a sense of wholeness, which is wholeness. Radiant love, a big space of love, is already present. So non-dual is telling us that it's already here, what we're looking for.
00:10:06
Speaker
So we're living in this world of duality, but our essence is already whole, so we've already arrived.
00:10:19
Speaker
We've already arrived and it takes a lot of work to realize that, actually. And it's kind of crazy what a paradoxical world we live in. On one end, there's this lack, perceived lack in our world, but at the same time, at the core of our being, what at least the Buddha teaches, I think is that we all have the Buddha nature and we just need to get to the core of it. Is that kind of?
00:10:48
Speaker
I think at heart he was also a non-dual teacher, and he understood the nature of the mind is something that seeks and searches and craves and wants. And so mostly all of his practices get us to a place where we can see that the nature of the mind is not the nature of the universe or our already still heart.
Meditation's Role in Societal Change
00:11:09
Speaker
The bodhicitta, the awakened heart, is already awakened.
00:11:13
Speaker
And almost all the practices get us to realize how craving, anger, delusion, ignorance, hatred, these are the things that keep us from actually residing in an awakened state of being, which is already present. But again, it takes a lot of work for us to realize that. Yeah. So actually, that kind of
00:11:35
Speaker
You basically began answering the next question I was going to pose to you, and that is, why do we suffer so much? Why are humans suffering so much? I like the conceptualization that Buddha had. We crave, we have contention, anger and hatred.
00:12:00
Speaker
And then we're ignorant and have a sense of delusion about what's real and unreal. So I'll break those down. We crave things. We're dissatisfied with what we don't have. We want things. We want more things. We want things to be other than they are. So that's craving.
00:12:20
Speaker
And then we have this sense of contention for the things that are here. We contend against them. I don't like that this is here. I don't want this here. I don't like what you're saying. I don't like you. And so then we reside in a place that's angry and contentious. And another way we suffer is because we don't see clearly. We don't have wisdom or insight about our own nature, the nature of others, the nature of the world. And so we get caught in a kind of deluded grasping or pushing away of things.
00:12:50
Speaker
So those three things I think are a really good way to understand why am I suffering right now? Am I craving something? Am I pushing something away? Or am I just really ignorant and kind of deluded about what's going on?
00:13:03
Speaker
Do you want, I can make those practical if you'd like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the antidote to this? Or at least obviously you did already say it takes practice to kind of get to the bottom of these things. So how does one go about unraveling these, um, these three kind of causes or contributors to our suffering? Yeah.
00:13:24
Speaker
Each one has a medicine. That's the way I call it. So when I'm working with patients or students, we start recognizing what's going on for you. Why are you struggling right now? And sometimes it's like, because I want this thing so badly. So we have some craving arising.
00:13:42
Speaker
And so what's a medicine for craving is gratitude for what we have right now. And it's very difficult because we want something more than what we have. This is my life. This is what I deal with mostly. We all have all of these, but one more than others is generally predominant. So when we're craving, a medicine is slowing down.
00:14:04
Speaker
getting the nervous system to a place of calm, and then, which is the answer for everything, I think, getting the nervous system to be calm, to have a clear mind, to access wisdom, and then we go, what do I want so badly that it's causing me to be tense? It's okay that you want things. I'm not saying don't want things, that's not reasonable. What I am saying is can you release your hold on the thing you want? Can you have, so there's a few things going on here, relaxing the nervous system,
00:14:34
Speaker
Recognizing we're craving. Recognition is a medicine. Calming, recognizing. And then letting go, okay. But also having some gratitude. I really do have enough right now to survive and even thrive right now. So that's an example of how I might work with someone through a really deep craving or longing that causes us to suffer.
00:14:58
Speaker
And we can look at the other ones too, when you have contention against someone you don't like. You have hatred, you have this deep anger. The medicine could be calming down, reflecting what's going on, but for contention, you might have some compassion. You might have some forgiveness practices that you need to do. Compassion for yourself for struggling, compassion for another person, even if they're acting totally unwisely,
Insights from Meditation Retreat & Bodhisattva Vow
00:15:27
Speaker
Maybe they have trauma in their background that's pushing them to be this way. So the medicine for contention is love, compassion, forgiveness. And so for each one of these, we just look at what's really going on, but you need to be calm to see what's going on, reflect, and then start adding these medicines, these different practices. So I really like an essay you have on your website.
00:15:54
Speaker
I have some notes out of it here, but you talk about how the mind is a master at manipulating us and how a lot of our, you know,
00:16:11
Speaker
negative or self-destructive habits formed to satisfy a need that we had at one point that wasn't satisfied. So can you maybe expand on that a little bit and could you really tell us what are our true needs that these kind of destructive habits and tendencies we have are attempting to fulfill?
00:16:37
Speaker
Our basic needs, real basic human needs are to be seen, be heard, be included, be loved. I love the group of needs that Marshall Rosenberg talks about in nonviolent communication trainings. He and others did some research cross-cultural around the world about what are the most basic human needs that we are using behaviors to fulfill. We have strategies
00:17:07
Speaker
for fulfilling those needs. And a lot of times they're not actually healthy strategies, but the need is fundamental, but we go about it in a way that leaves us suffering and leaves other people suffering.
00:17:21
Speaker
And so I encourage the listeners to look up the need list from Marshall Rosenberg. I think that's a pretty good set of needs. My teacher, Richard, really likes to break it down to being seen, being heard, being included. These are things that we're socially needing from others and within ourselves too. Remember, we can fulfill our own needs. So what happens is we initially fulfill our needs by any means possible.
00:17:51
Speaker
And sometimes they're really healthy behaviors and other times they're really unhealthy behaviors. But regardless, they fulfill us getting a need met. But as we age, we still sometimes use the same strategy that's now outdated. And what we have to do is recognize my strategy is outdated, but the need is the same. So how can I change my strategy, change my thinking and my behavior,
00:18:19
Speaker
to healthfully get my need met. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the recognition is probably the first step, right? Self-awareness is the first step in every piece of this work that we're going to talk about today. Self-awareness. What am I doing? How am I feeling? What am I saying? What am I thinking? So how would you go about
00:18:49
Speaker
What is the process from self-awareness to actually reshaping our behaviors from ones that do not serve us to ones that not only serve us, but they serve our families, the community, and the world?
00:19:10
Speaker
a model that I've created, it's called Acorns, actually. And we'll put a link for your listeners so that they can look this up, Acorns. So after all these years working with patients and students, I wanted a really concise way of helping people have a method for starting inward and ending out with action. So my Acorns model is called From Awareness to Action.
00:19:38
Speaker
And I try to make it as concise and practical as possible. We start with self-awareness. And that's awareness about our sensations, our feelings, our beliefs, what's happening right now in the moment as I'm living in this moment. I'm aware of this moment and I'm aware of my experience in this moment. So that's the first thing. Sometimes when I'm with patients, I might spend a whole month in treatment just working on building self-awareness.
00:20:08
Speaker
What sensations are going on for you when you're angry? Because if you can notice what anger feels like, you can start catching it before anger escapes your mouth. You know, I had one father I was working with, I said, what do your kids think? He goes, my kids don't, they don't pick up when I'm angry. I said, go ask your daughter what daddy's angry face looks like. And he came back sobbing.
00:20:33
Speaker
honestly, the next session thinking about it, because she showed him what his angry face looked like. And he didn't know that was being projected out. So this was a six year old daughter giving really clear feedback that dad, your anger is visible and it's felt. And so we spent a lot of time feeling
00:20:54
Speaker
that angry face that I could clearly see in the room. I mean, it was just visible. It's visible to me as to the daughter. So we start with self-awareness. Once we move from awareness, we get calm. Calm is a medicine for every state. Calm tells the nervous system you're not in danger right now. Now, if you are in danger,
00:21:18
Speaker
run you fight whatever you need to do to protect yourself, but in most cases our nervous systems Agitated our brain sending signals that you're in danger
00:21:29
Speaker
when we might actually not be. So it's really important once you're self-aware to calm the nervous system. This is through breathing, deep breathing exercises, because you can't really do anything when you're not calm. You don't access the prefrontal regions of your brain, which are responsible for insight, planning, judgment. These are problem solving skills that when you're not calm,
00:21:52
Speaker
you're not really using that part of our human consciousness and we need to use it to make problems solved basically. Do you want me to keep going or do you have questions in between?
00:22:04
Speaker
No, so far so good. You're distilling very well and I think you'll really register. Acorns will register, will be able to recite it easily after. Good. I hope so. I use this at a keynote address to a statewide conference.
00:22:24
Speaker
I was a keynote address and all I did was talk about acorns. It was for a conference for therapists. And I heard a lot of really good feedback about people starting to use this in their sessions with patients. The next step would be me to validate this model through research and I haven't gotten there yet. So I'm just sharing what I've been doing and what I've been training some others to do.
00:22:48
Speaker
So we have awareness, we have calm, we have open-hearted, which to me means starting by self-compassion, not shutting the heart down. Michael Singer, who wrote some tremendous books, one called The Untethered Soul, talked about not shutting your heart down for anything, even in crisis, even during trauma. And so after we're aware, we stay calm.
00:23:13
Speaker
I ask people to keep their hearts open because that opens the channel for heart to heart connection, heart to heart here. So once you're aware and once you can get calmed down, you keep your heart open going, I know this is tough for me. I know I want to scream or punch somebody, but I'm okay. I can handle this. This is self love, love. I even teach people how to come inward.
00:23:40
Speaker
and be loving to this thing that's struggling in conflict so that they can be loving to other people. So keeping open hearted is really important. Can I just ask, I know a lot of guys might struggle with the concept. How does one access this kind of open, to open the heart?
00:24:05
Speaker
I know a lot of guys are kind of, we're stuck in our heads. We're a little bit like, that's woo, this kind of stuff. How do you conceptualize this opening the heart? How does one open the heart more? Yeah, I love that question and about the kind of nuances and complexity of how gender plays a role in even relating to yourself with love. I've worked extensively with combat veterans over my career.
00:24:35
Speaker
And, um, I, I wrestle them into it. I, I fucking. Well, what do you, like, really, what do you want? Why are you even here? Right. And ultimately it's because they want to feel better and they want to relate better to their spouses or partners. They want to be better fathers. Well, you know, lack of self-love projects out as anger and contention and rigidity.
00:25:02
Speaker
And so once I get them to see that, hey man, like you not talking about love, you not actually learning how to love this part of who you are, it's going to be really difficult to do that with other people. And honestly, once we start doing these practices in session, it's not a concept, it's a feeling. And once they allow themselves to cry a little bit and to feel some vulnerability, then the game has changed for them. Then it's like, oh, how can I do this more often?
00:25:30
Speaker
because I see how often I shut down. Honestly, once a person really wants to heal and then thrive, most people are willing to try and do anything. So why wouldn't you try to learn to love yourself? I have really tough warriors. I mean, the mythological archetypal warrior I sit in the office with and we can acknowledge and really have honor in the warrior in them.
00:26:00
Speaker
And true warrior, true martial artists are completely open hearted and in flow with the universe. So we're just opening that channel back up for them. Um, and I don't find much resistance after they have this feeling of love arise in them. Yeah. I mean, that would make sense because it's, it's a good feeling. Why, why, why would you resist once you, once you tap into that? Right. Exactly. So I gave an experience and then they're like, Oh, this feels amazing. I'm like, I know.
00:26:29
Speaker
So let's just go toward that. Okay. So we have awareness, calm, open heart. Yep. Then reflect. And this is about clarity. What's going on right now? What needs are not being met? You become aware of what's happening. You calm yourself down. You keep your heart open and then you start going, so what is happening?
00:26:55
Speaker
Because before you're calmed down, your angry mind is going to tell you something different than your open hearted mind. If you're not calm, if you're still angry, you're going to think angrily about the circumstance. So you're not going to see clearly that person, duh, duh, duh, duh. When you're calmed down, when you keep your heart open, now you can start going, okay, something's going on in me. There's a need not being met right now, which is leaving me angry.
00:27:23
Speaker
So that's why I calm people down before we do any problem solving. You can't problem solve when you're angry. Really, it doesn't work that way. So we calm down, we keep our heart open, and then we go, what's happening? We reflect on what needs are not being met. And then you have the end, which is now what? Now you discern.
00:27:45
Speaker
What do I do? Now that I know my need for respect isn't met or my need for collaboration or my need for validation, my need for consent, these things were not met. What do I want to do about it? This is when you start problem solving. Do you see how long it takes till you get to, I'm not interested in help people problem solve. I'm interested in helping them become ready to problem solve. So the last two stages is now what, now what do you want to do?
00:28:13
Speaker
And the S is skillful action. Take the action you just discerned was wise. Very cool. So this is how we go from awareness to action. Yeah. Like what one example I can already see is instead of shouting or punching someone,
00:28:30
Speaker
out of anger, you may just figure out that the skillful action is to take yourself out of that situation. And whether that is on a chronic basis or at one particular instance, maybe the best for everybody involved is to remove yourself. And only by getting into that state of calm, can you discern that rather than acting out of the initial impulse. Exactly. That's a great example.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's really hard for the angry mind to want to walk away. And that might not mean I'm going to fight. That might mean I'm going to argue. I'm going to manipulate. I'm going to beg. Or the scared mind, you know? How do you get a scared mind to find courage and stay and face something that's difficult? You have to get out of the experience of being scared. Notice you feel scared. Love on yourself. Okay, I'm scared right now.
00:29:29
Speaker
Why? Because I'm feeling threatened. So what's the best thing to do? Well, this isn't physical threat and this is an emotional threat. So I can stand my ground to this one and go, you know what? I'm going to set some boundaries right now. Even though I'm scared, I'm going to set some boundaries. Now, if it's a physical threat, you actually might need to get out, save yourself, get away, get help. But it's really hard for a scared mind to know what to do. You have to get out of the scared mind.
00:29:57
Speaker
And that's why I set up this model to help people learn how to recognize calm, keep their heart open, and then reflect on what needs to happen. Very, very interesting. And how do you apply that to things like death of a loved one or your own kind of people's own confrontation with their own death?
00:30:21
Speaker
Those are great questions. I'd have to reflect. First of all, death of a loved one, we're talking about grief and loss, probably anger and things in there. My question would be, what are we avoiding or what are we attaching to? So more often than not, we're avoiding some unpleasant or really hard feelings. And more often than not, we're attaching to some kind of comfort or soothing that may or may not be healthy for us.
00:30:49
Speaker
So losing acorns, it's like we have to identify what the problem is. If you're facing your own mortality, are you grasping to your life? You know, is this a grasping craving? Are you angry at a loved one for having died? Is there contention in there? So you're sitting there angry all the time. I had a mother I worked with whose daughter had died and she
00:31:14
Speaker
for years was holding on to self-pity. How could this happen to me? What did I do in my life that caused this to happen? Kinds of thinking. And so she came to me at first unwilling to let go of actually the self-pity. That was an attachment. There's healthy grieving, healthy bereavement.
00:31:35
Speaker
And then things happen after based on our temperament and personality that make things unhealthy. So for her, she was feeling pity for years until I helped her recognize, why am I, I don't need to feel this pity. So we use this model to move through. When she started feeling pity, she'd be aware of what it felt like. She'd soothe herself, calm herself. And she would just end up just going, my need is to just feel loved when I think of my daughter.
00:32:02
Speaker
So can we just sit with some sadness and love and let it just be like that? So she goes from clinging and craving to ending up with love. And that's how we can move from one to the other. So you talk a lot about
00:32:23
Speaker
Working on oneself can lead to collective transformation. This looks like a really good tool to work on oneself that can have benefits for our collective transformation as a society, as a peoples. What other tools do we have? Especially as we were discussing in our email exchange, we're living in a trying time.
00:32:48
Speaker
What other tools can you offer folks that they may use to overcome the various challenges of today's world? Yeah, well, that's a really big question because are we talking individually how they handle themselves? Are we talking how they handle systemic institutional issues like oppression and marginalization from the system itself? So those are all different
00:33:16
Speaker
behaviors, right? But it all starts for me checking in, what am I feeling? Where am I at right now in this moment? Am I wanting to run away? Am I wanting to fight? And how do I become skillful in my ways of interacting with people in the world right now or with systems in the world?
00:33:36
Speaker
So maybe you can ask, maybe you can refine that down a little bit because what I think it always will start with was this personal awareness and reflection and realizing what's happening and how do I want to be right now. But then we have a choice to make. Do I engage on a social level, on a community level, national level, world level? Or do I just take care of myself and my family? What's the most appropriate, healthy thing for me to do? And that's up to each person.
00:34:05
Speaker
But I did just write an essay. I don't even think I sent it to you because it was between when you invited me and now. I just wrote an essay how my dog has taught me how to be more wise and kind during times of crisis. I've been watching my dog interact and realizing he doesn't engage when there's aggression. He won't retaliate. He walks away. And that's really important, actually.
00:34:31
Speaker
So many of us stay like really angry and frustrated and want to kind of like convince people out of their mindset. And that leaves everybody frustrated and upset and sometimes violent toward one another, a lot of times violent. So how do we not engage that way? How do we stay kind and be wise in our engagements? So I'll send you the link and you can post that up for your listeners.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, that'll be very interesting because we adopted a dog last December and she has taught both of us so many things and one thing I was going to mention a bit later on is you have the loving kindness meditation on your website and
00:35:21
Speaker
we had to take her for part of the conditions of adopting her was that we had to have her sterilized so we had to take her for the operation last Friday so my girlfriend and I would be doing our your guided loving kindness meditation in the in the night and we'd be sending her loving kindness and I feel like it really it was really tough it's like a child
00:35:45
Speaker
But just learning to tap into this kindness first to yourself and then to another being. And then that really is so beneficial. And I actually found myself, I was sending loving kindness to guys, this is before bed, to guys that I was in fist fights 15 years ago.
00:36:14
Speaker
to kids in school who we used to bully me and we used to fight with, sending these guys loving kindness and I was like feeling compassion. God knows what traumas they were suffering in their families or neglect or whatever and it's an amazing thing and a kind of
00:36:37
Speaker
I don't mean to really derail the conversation, but I suppose, I did ask you a very big question there, and there's many, many nuances on many, many levels. You did say that you're coming back from, was it a three month retreat?
00:36:59
Speaker
Can you tell us what insights you came across whilst on this retreat and how can that be applied to our world at the moment?
00:37:15
Speaker
And I want to just, I want to validate that you didn't derail the conversation. That was probably the most beautiful piece of our talk was just what you shared, honestly. And I think the listeners are going to feel
00:37:31
Speaker
the love, really, that you were just expressing. And it's an interesting thing to think about loving the people that have hurt us. But that's, in essence, what we're doing when we're doing loving kindness. So I love how when you asked me, what can we do personally to have an impact on our society,
00:37:52
Speaker
And it is a complex question, but one of the really most important things we can do is what you just talked about is not harbor hatred and anger in our own hearts for even those who have hurt us. And I know how hard that is personally having been through traumas myself. And I work with people with significant trauma and who have been actually tortured. And yet through deep practice,
00:38:20
Speaker
They come to a place and it's not my job to say forgiveness should be part of your treatment. That is not for me to say that, but for them to come to a place, whether they want to forgive or not, but open their hearts back up and start doing these deeper loving kindness practices is so healthy and healing for ourselves.
00:38:41
Speaker
But when we talk about the science of loving kindness, we talk about what is actually radiating, what comes into the field around us, the biofield.
00:38:51
Speaker
And there's some data where science is teaching us that our thoughts and our emotions have an impact on the space, on the field, because the field around us isn't just void of anything. It's not disconnected from ourselves. What literally vibes and radiates from our energy impacts those around us. If someone who's angry walks into a room, people feel it. If someone like the Dalai Lama,
00:39:20
Speaker
or walks into a room, you feel it. So how does our capacity to love impact the greater community and the world around us?
00:39:33
Speaker
Even as a child when I saw Star Wars and the planet blew up and Obi-Wan felt the disturbance of the force and we're like, wow, that's amazing, Jedi, mystical, you know, science fiction. The truth is that's legitimate. It's a legitimate experience to feel the impact of either destruction or of love happening around us.
00:40:02
Speaker
And so I want to make sure that your listeners know it's not woo woo that we're talking about the impact of loving kindness on the world. It's documented and demonstrated that love or hatred have an impact around us. That's, that's an insight that I've carried for years, but I want to make it very clear. Yeah.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's a palpable feeling. You feel something. Maybe you won't feel it the first time if you're too much in your head. But you do this, and we're not doing it for a long time. We're doing it for a couple of weeks now.
00:40:44
Speaker
but it just seems to amplify and get stronger. You're almost like your field or whatever that bio field is, you can feel it expanding, you can visualize the light that's
00:41:03
Speaker
It's actually, I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it. It's pretty amazing and I'm really appreciated that, you know, I stumbled upon your work and then went to your website and you had these. And of course, I will have all these links to your
00:41:20
Speaker
talks and guided meditations and presentations. Of course, we'll have all those. But anyway, please, I know you have some insights that you'd like to share. Yeah. And I think what we're talking about are some of the most important lessons, even though I've had these experiences.
00:41:46
Speaker
I just want to keep going with what you're sharing because that is the living essence of this, what I'm teaching anyway. This isn't an intellectual waking up. This is an embodiment of the teachings we've been given through generations. And I mean all the mystical traditions, Suvism, Kabbalah, Christian mysticism, we're from the desert fathers, desert mothers, of course, non-dual traditions.
00:42:14
Speaker
All of them point to the felt sense of God or the mystical in our daily lives, and all of them refer to this mystery being felt as this radiant love that goes beyond the boundaries of our skin. We're not encapsulated packages of sausage with a computer brain.
00:42:38
Speaker
That's not the actual science either of who we are because we have mind to mind connections. We have heart to heart connections. We feel things. Our skin is permeable. We feel temperature. We sense things. Our field, personal field, isn't stuck.
00:42:58
Speaker
underneath the skin inward. It's permeable. We're translucent more than we think. Quantum physics teaches this also in terms of like we're made of space and we have very little boundaries between us. This is just denser matter. And so we think it's compact and we think I'm here and you're over there.
00:43:19
Speaker
The truth is we're all interconnected and interdependent on every level, including our relationship to fish and water and trees and the soil and dirt. The health of each other is what makes us healthy. The disease of each other makes us all diseased. This is something we want to understand fundamentally that the way I take care of myself impacts how you feel. I know that it could be mind blowing or you can go, that's not true.
00:43:47
Speaker
But the quality of the dirt and soil from which your food is grown impacts the way your body, uh, grows healthfully or it doesn't. And so what I'm sharing is the interdependency of all on earth. And then it becomes our responsibility to take care of ourselves as much as taking care of other people, because there's really no difference. There's no boundaries really. Those are, those are human made.
00:44:14
Speaker
And so if I'm having any real deep insights I wanna share is how important it is to learn how to love the self, the body and other people through these practices we're talking about.
00:44:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's like they say, you know, all is one and the universe is one whole big organism. And I think this is I think this is where I've actually spoken to quite a few folks that are in the psychedelic space. And I think this is one way where we could not short circuit, but at least give psychedelics can give people a glimpse of this oneness
00:44:56
Speaker
Obviously we can get it through meditation but I don't think people have the capacity to meditate long enough to get into those states but just getting that glimpse even for an hour or two of this oneness that we all are
00:45:12
Speaker
is probably a good catalyst to then bring us to appreciating, bringing ourselves into a meditative state or going out in nature and seeing that every action is contingent on everything else. This breath I take is literally being absorbed by these trees and the breath I take in, it's being emanated, that oxygen is being emanated from the tree. So we are literally
00:45:40
Speaker
Like you said, only the goic mind creates the separation. This is, you know, a desk that is a human, etc. So, how do you think... I guess this is another big question, but I feel like you're well capable of answering these questions.
00:45:59
Speaker
How do you think collectively we'll get closer to that state where we understand not just mentally, but feel that we are all one and therefore enjoy the improvements of that?
00:46:23
Speaker
answer that by talking a little bit about what you said, how psychedelics can give us experience into that field. Dan Siegel calls it the plane of possibility where everything resides as a potential
00:46:38
Speaker
So it's pre-existence, it's like what's the potential of things in psychedelics and meditation and ritual bring us to that deeper plane where everything kind of like exists from and arises out of. But that's not doesn't have to be an extraordinary
00:46:57
Speaker
experience that only these big psychedelic or meditation experiences give you. These happen on a daily basis moment to moment. We're often not paying attention and so I want listeners to really understand this isn't a special state that we're trying to get through through psychedelics ritual or meditation and then we're like, wow, it's like how in your daily life can you see this profound connection
00:47:24
Speaker
between all of these manifested forms, like you, computer, dog, and really get to like, oh, we're actually interconnected, interdependent. And it's through paying attention to yourself and other people. We have a lot of data on what we call mirror neurons, where if you're drinking a glass of water, I'm attuned to you, then
00:47:52
Speaker
The region in my brain responsible for drinking water, the movement, sensory motor will also be lit up. And so that's because I'm observing you have an experience. My brain knows that experience and so lights up in the same regions. Um, some people dispute mirror neurons, but I think we have really good data on them.
00:48:11
Speaker
And there's also heart-to-heart connections, heartbeat regulating with each other, lover's heart beats starting to regulate. Yeah, right, adherence. So we're talking things that have science backing to them, that at once we are one sounds really ethereal and far out, but what we're talking about, and science doesn't explain why, it explains what's going on. But when we start paying attention,
00:48:41
Speaker
we start having these experiences where there's no real difference anymore. So it takes slowing down, having an open heart, and paying really close attention, which is why I often, I guess I don't blink a lot. People tell me like, you just sit and stare at me in session.
00:49:09
Speaker
I don't know that, but I know what I'm doing. I'm just being with, totally being with so that I can attune with them. I feel what they're feeling. I'm thinking what they're thinking. And now I can work with them from the inside. And so this is a way that I utilize that kind of skill of knowing there's no separation so that I can have that experience to work with them from the inside out. So slowing down, keeping an open heart and paying close attention. Hmm. Do you think
00:49:39
Speaker
Working with your patients, clients, do you think your own kind of depth of presence is one of the catalysts for kind of their transformations? Because we know Rupert Sheldrake talks about the psychic fields, the morphogenetic fields. So us being profoundly connected
00:50:05
Speaker
being in the presence of some someone who, you know, has stepped into, you know, this kind of deeper awareness and kind of is profoundly aware conscious. Do you think that just it's like a candlelight just illuminating, as it were, a space around it? Is it something like that? I love that. I think so. I'm not responsible for their healing. I'm not saying I'm the one doing the work.
00:50:35
Speaker
For them, I am illuminating the space. I mean, that's what good therapists or healers do. We widen the space. But presence itself, what is, for me, the gateway from which the radiant mysteries love comes through.
00:50:52
Speaker
And so people sitting in the field of presence are sitting in a field of love where it's safe, even maybe not for their ego who has to face itself, but it's safe and it's full of love and it's spacious. And so if we can, each of us become radiantly present, then we're all offering safety and love to one another as we greet people, even just strangers, just through a
00:51:20
Speaker
through your eyes, through your posture, just emanate presence and move on. And then you're bringing light into people's lives. And it's not like our light, like Mike's light. It's the light of the universe coming through this experience of Mike.
00:51:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I think a lot of folks have this defeatist attitude, you know, all the world is messed up beyond repair. And what's the point? And let's just give into this one existence hedonism, but, you know, materialistic pleasures. But like you've already said, we have data that you transform yourself, you're affecting the whole.
00:52:05
Speaker
So if we all begin or more of us begin doing the work, it could lead to this kind of more collective transformation. Or is that wishful thinking on my end? I don't know. We'll have to practice and see. I don't know. I don't disagree with the defeatist too. We are hard. We are really terrible to each other. Human beings are violent.
00:52:35
Speaker
I come from a Holocaust surviving family. I have a lot of Black friends and Native American friends and gay and lesbian and trans friends. This world, I mean, human society is not easy to be in if you're perceived as different. There are real threats, real violence. That doesn't mean I don't do the work.
00:52:56
Speaker
It doesn't mean I don't work on myself to transform because I feel better. And when I feel better, I treat people better. And the more I clean myself up, the more radiance comes through me and that impacts other people. So I still have, in my mind, a job to do. I have a responsibility, even though there's a part of me that's like, ah, we are a tough species on each other. And most of our issues are human made.
00:53:26
Speaker
I think it's a both-and. I don't want to sugarcoat things. My family's been through too much to sugarcoat anything, but at the same time, I have a yearning to serve humanity and to help wake us up and to help promote this love and peacefulness through changing ourselves. I heard on a podcast somewhere you took a Bodhisattva vow.
00:53:55
Speaker
that I break all the time, but I keep going back to it. What is that, just for the listeners? The Bodhisattva vows, I took those, I mean, I still take them daily and I take my Buddhist vows seriously and I mess up all the time and I keep having to start them over again. And because they're difficult to keep up, they're difficult to practice. The Bodhisattva vow is a vow that no matter how much suffering there is,
00:54:25
Speaker
I'm going to keep working. No matter how many people there are, I'm going to try to work with all of them. No matter how many distorted ways I think, I'm going to try to work through all that and come to a clear heart.
00:54:43
Speaker
And no matter how many opportunities there are to learn about my own Buddha nature, even though I can't learn about them all, I'm going to learn about them all. It's a paradoxical vow. There are vows that say you're never going to do all of it because you can't. If something has no end, how do you end it? But I'm going to try anyway. I'm going to keep putting my effort into saving or working with humanity.
00:55:08
Speaker
no matter what, then that's why I can say, we're kind of messed up and I'm still gonna work with us. I'm still gonna keep trying.
00:55:15
Speaker
That's what, in essence, it means to me. Well, I'm thankful there's people like you out there and I'm very thankful for your work, Mike. In closing, would you like to guide us through the whole meditation that you were telling me about? I would love to. And for the listeners, if you're not used to meditation,
00:55:42
Speaker
I encourage you just to sit and try it out. Just listen to the sound of my voice. If you're used to meditation, be open to doing something new in this practice. If you're anti-meditation, maybe encourage yourself to try something different today just for the sake of your own well-being or others' well-being. Sometimes it's hard for listeners of podcasts who want to drop into a state of being other than listening.
00:56:10
Speaker
But I think doing these practices is where the change actually happens. And for those of you who don't, thank you for listening. I wish you well and I hope you find what you're looking for in your life. And those that do like it, I will chop this out and have it as a separate mini bonus episode that folks can download or keep on their phone and do in the morning or the evening whenever they wish.
00:56:40
Speaker
And so this meditation is, I've been developing it alongside my colleague, Julia Mossbridge. We have a grant. We're studying hope. And I developed this meditation as part of our study. And so this is what I'll share with you. All right, so is this good? You ready? Yes. All right. And hopefully you enjoy it as well. So for those of us who have stayed on, I invite you to
00:57:08
Speaker
Find a comfortable position to sit in, shoulders back and down. Let your body begin to rest onto or into whatever is supporting it. And this is a good time for us all as a group to take a deep breath and sigh.
00:57:38
Speaker
Take another deep breath in and sigh. So rest your mind and your body as the body rests on the chair, the couch. Bring your mind's attention into the body from the inside out.
00:58:10
Speaker
Drop your mind into your body as if getting into a warm tub or under the covers. Bring your mind's attention to the chest or the heart area and feel the body around your attention.
00:58:50
Speaker
Bring your attention closer to the skin where the air touches skin. And feel the pocket of air around the body.
00:59:25
Speaker
Just feel the body's experience. Shimmering, shaking, cool, hot, all the sensations of the body. And now bring your attention back inward toward the breath.
00:59:53
Speaker
Begin to soften and slow the breath. And tell yourself mentally slow and steady. Slow and steady.
01:00:22
Speaker
Feel the breath through the nose, throat, lungs into the belly. Notice as the breath goes from the belly, lungs, throat, and out the nose. And just breathe slow and steady into the body.
01:01:01
Speaker
soft, slow breath. As the mind wanders, as it tends to do, gently bring your attention back to the body breathing.
01:01:34
Speaker
And now bring your attention up to the mind. Imagine sitting in the mind, looking out toward the eyes, toward the infinite space of imagination, keeping your breath slow and steady. And in your mind, imagine a time in your past, it could be two days ago, a week or some years, where you were struggling, you were challenged. Don't go to your worst memory, just something where you were struggling.
01:02:07
Speaker
And picture yourself. What were you feeling? What was your experience like then? And imagine yourself looking at you now from the past looking here, looking at one another.
01:02:39
Speaker
And in your mind, tell yourself, I see you. I'm sorry it was so difficult. I'm sorry it was so hard. I'm here for you. And imagine loving on yourself
01:03:09
Speaker
in any way that you'd like. How would you show yourself love? What messages do you have for your past self?
01:03:38
Speaker
And feel your body's response now here as you offer yourself love. So say goodbye to the past self. And come back into this present moment, the body breathing.
01:04:12
Speaker
And now pivot toward the future in your mind. Imagine a time in the future, days from now, weeks, months, or years. Well beyond your experience now. See if you can imagine your future self. What are you doing? The best version of yourself.
01:04:41
Speaker
The self that has been through so many experiences and challenges and is wise and healthy. Imagine that self looking back on you now here. What does that self have to say to you?
01:05:19
Speaker
Imagine that self looking at you, radiating love back to you here. So say goodbye to the future self and return to the present where the body is breathing.
01:05:48
Speaker
And just rest in the present moment. Just feel the loving presence of awareness.
01:06:20
Speaker
your own spacious awareness. And take a deep breath here. Exhale slowly. Another deep breath. Exhale slowly.
01:06:52
Speaker
And without losing this embodied mindfulness, gently open the eyes. So for those of you still with us, this was a good time to just reflect a little bit on what you saw, felt, learned, if anything,
01:07:20
Speaker
Take notes, journal, take a few moments to be with yourself before rushing back into doing. Just take some time to be. Be present. It's a precious opportunity to be with yourself. And if you'd like, extend this kind of attention, loving attention toward others you meet today.
01:07:48
Speaker
Thank you for practicing. I hope you enjoyed it. So thanks for letting me do that. Thanks a lot, Mike. How was that for you? Yeah, that was very powerful. Yeah, I went back about four years
01:08:13
Speaker
And I don't know how far in the future it went. But yeah, I can see how doing this...
01:08:24
Speaker
often would cultivate this feeling of self-love that we really need to cultivate in ourselves. So thank you so much for sharing it. It's truly, truly a privilege to be in your presence as you shared this meditation and I am
01:08:45
Speaker
Very glad we'll be able to share it with a wider audience. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Your presence is so nice and soft. It is really great to be with you too. And I hope this gets shared and has a positive impact for ourselves and then all the people and animals and plants we meet. May we all be just a source of radiant joy and love for one another and a source of safety.
01:09:11
Speaker
during these times where we all feel threatened. So thanks again for having me on. Thanks, Mike. And just before we go, we will of course have the links that I mentioned and that you mentioned in the show notes and on the website. But can you tell folks where they can find more about your work, your writings, your teachings, your talks? Yeah, michalsapiro.com made it real simple. Just my name, michalsapiro.com. I'm on Instagram at Dr. Mike Boise.
01:09:42
Speaker
Um, and that's about it. And then, you know, I teach at Esalen and, um, work at Institute of Noetic Sciences. So they can find all that on the website though. And, uh, I'd be happy to take emails and. You know, I'd leave retreats worldwide. People are always welcome to join once we get to be in person. And for now, just webinars. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So once again, Mike, thank you so much for your time. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Take care.
01:10:19
Speaker
Thank you for listening to Connecting Minds. We hope you enjoyed this conversation and found it interesting, illuminating or inspiring. For episode show notes, links and further information on our guests, please visit christianjordanov.com. If you found this episode valuable, please share it with someone who might also enjoy it. Thank you for being here.