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Tumblereads 20: The Fanfic to Romance Pipeline
74 Plays3 days ago
The Smut Report Team talks fanfic, and honestly, we barely skimmed the surface on this one.
Show notes (including a link to the infamous Ask a Manager story) at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Tumble Reads Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
na na na that's my report hello and welcome to this week's episode of tumble reads for if you're new here uh or forgetful tumble reads is tumble reads is where we just talk about whatever we want ah we do what we want okay but Here's the thing, guys. Aren't most podcasts just people being like, I'm going to talk about whatever I want. I don't know. I don't think so. because i Yeah, because one, I think i think that they um try to make money. Well, there's that. And so I think that they are restricted. We truly talk about whatever we want because we don't care.
00:00:42
Speaker
You know, I used to listen to the History of England podcast religiously, and he he was very funny, but he also scripted all of his podcasts because he was talking about history. So I think it depends on what it is, too, if it's like a conversational one or a.
00:00:55
Speaker
That's true. soul And it's not like we plan in advance or tell each other our topics in advance. Yeah. Topics are surprise. There's no preparation here. The point is for Tumble Reads, there's no preparation. None at all.
Hosts' Preparation Styles
00:01:09
Speaker
We don't know. Sometimes not even for the host. Yeah. Right.
00:01:13
Speaker
Like Ingrid, I feel like usually comes up with a cute idea or a prompt. And I do not do that. i don't know if Aaron does or not. often do I ever do that? Like, I don't, this is a very strange thing that I actually prepare for this because i don't feel like I prepare for anything.
00:01:32
Speaker
ah Like I'm the kind of person driving to the doctor's office, like filling out the form they send you in advance at stoplights. So like. Ingrid's a very responsible driver, guys.
00:01:43
Speaker
It's only at the stoplights. yes And I don't think if I'm the first in line because I will forget to go when it's when it goes green. See how I'm conscientious and a safe driver. All right, well, ah I'm Erin.
00:01:56
Speaker
I'm Ingrid. I'm Holly. and And we're the Smut Report. Yeah, we are the Smut Report. If you wanted to know what TumbleReads was like, that was it.
Exploring Fanfiction: Definition and Stigma
00:02:06
Speaker
So welcome back. What is happening? Normally in a long form podcast, I would cut all that stuff out, but you get whatever it is. Not today, yep.
00:02:17
Speaker
All right. So today, since I am our fearless leader, I was thinking about the prevalence of or that I feel like it's an increase in the past.
00:02:32
Speaker
Well, since we've been doing the the blog, uh, ah in general and by increase, I mean more frequency of conversation over time in our time being very much online. And I feel like also now we are less very much online than we have ever been.
00:02:48
Speaker
But I feel like the conversation comes up more. And that conversation is, oh, this book is just fanfic that's been shined up and published. Juicy topic. So I want to talk about what does that even mean?
00:03:01
Speaker
Like what constitutes fanfic? left First of all, for definition purposes, what constitutes fanfic? What can simply be inspiration? Like where if...
00:03:13
Speaker
what is what is the difference between being inspired by something and being like oh that's just fanfic um and like I guess does it matter what is going on here what is going on with this conversation and like what do people want from it too um when they're like oh it's just fanfic like this is a bad thing um okay well it sounds like if it's a bad thing you want something different well what do you want that's different I guess um Can you guys think of anything else? Maybe we should start with the low-hanging fruit and go from there.
00:03:45
Speaker
Holly, what's fanfic? What is fanfic? The reason I do this is because I feel like Holly is really good at explaining things without going on tangents, and that's something Erin and I both cannot do. That's true. That's very true. You're smart about that. Thank you. Yeah, I know. Holly, go
Origins and Examples of Fanfiction
00:03:59
Speaker
for What's fanfic? Okay.
00:04:00
Speaker
So fanfic? is um writing that is reimagining of other people's characters or even sometimes other real life people. um And ah then putting like you, but we'll we'll start with fiction. We'll say putting, taking fictional characters in the existing world that someone else created that these fictional characters are in but then putting these characters into different situations, usually pairing them romantically, but not always.
00:04:36
Speaker
So cant let's do an example of that. So people, so like ah the most popular one recently. i mean, well, I don't know about like. There's loads. I think it depends on the world you're in. Like Omegaverse is based off of, well, modern Omegaverse it exists because there's a history of some of this elsewhere. Yeah. But ah is based off of ah shipping of the two main characters of Supernatural. Right. And um like a fan the origins of modern fanfic it commonly cited are people writing stories about um Kirk and Spock kissing.
00:05:18
Speaker
Oh, okay. And then, of course, I mean, there's Dremione. Yes, Dremione. Those of who grew up with Harry Potter, it's definitely a thing, you know? Right, but there's also a lot of, like, Dreary, like Harry Draco, Harry and Snape, like... People just getting their... People just all the things. Right? There's Star Wars fanfic. like oh yeah that makes sense yeah right oh yeah rilo um and there's a lot of anime fanfic that i've seen uh yeah pop up too as i've been reading more manga and like graphic novels and i pop across this is like oh i'm shipping these people was like i have no idea what this particular book is but a lot of people do know what it is right i mean so it's basically and um there is a super active online fan fiction community. And the idea in those spaces is that you write for free and you are never monetized. And that there's like some history with that. It was like Anne Rice famously like suing people writing fanfic about her characters. And so like, you're not supposed, or if you monetize, you have to change the names and it's called like filing off the,
00:06:42
Speaker
the IP, right?
Monetization and Quality of Fanfiction
00:06:43
Speaker
Where you you change just enough details where you keep the core of your story, but you you don't use somebody else's um world. um And so there's this idea that it's meant to be free. And a lot of fanfic online now tends to be it's like,
00:07:02
Speaker
tends to be really long. They're like, if they come out serialized, right? You wait run chapter at a time and these books run 500 chapters. um And there are and many people have the idea that fanfic is low quality fiction.
00:07:15
Speaker
Okay. This is very interesting because I've never read, yeah I've never read any fanfic of it. i I mean, I've only read, the fanfic that I've read has been, i knew that it started that way. Right. But it's been through um a more rigorous editorial process. Right. Like you,
00:07:30
Speaker
probably read Fifty Shades of Grey at some point. I did. i actually have it. I would argue that if that that that I'm not sure that the quality of that one increased very much. Right. But that is um Fifty Shades of Grey very famously started as Twilight fan fiction where she just took the vampire and the sad girl and put them in an office building instead. Right. And yeah, that was a big one.
00:08:02
Speaker
But there are also people that argue that like Dante's Inferno is just fanfic if you really think about it, where he's taking someone else's IP and putting it in his own poem and and writing like real person fic, right? Where he's taking, thinking of all the people he knows in real life and like imagining them in this other world.
00:08:25
Speaker
Which is kind of an interesting point. I had not thought... Because I was sitting here, English major brain, and I was like, well, hold on a second. This just sounds like, you know, basic writer community stuff. Well, here's another thing that Holly didn't say. That somebody on the internets... Sorry for the lack of attribution. i just was reading and not realizing that I was going to have to cite.
00:08:46
Speaker
So, apologies. How could you, Erin? But I know, right? Somebody on the internets at one point also said that... Fanfic relies on understood characterizations and settings so that there is a shorthand. I think it was a conversation about changing. Yeah. yeah Changing ah a fanfic to a published work. um because you can't just do a one-to-one. Holly called, I mean, you can call it filing off the IP, but it's also like if people don't have the baseline understanding that the fanfic readers are going to read, they're missing a lot of the content.
Copyright and Creativity in Fanfiction
00:09:26
Speaker
So you have to restructure your narrative if you're going to make a new story to publish like and fill in that you know background information world building characterization stuff so that a new reader can understand what's going on well it's interesting that that is a very I think I that that really helps clarify the debate for me because i think like I when I when we when you first brought it up in my head I'm thinking like listen you know
00:09:57
Speaker
that's how literature develops is by a mutual exchange and a free flow of ideas and being inspired by people's work and stuff. But when you say it that way, it feels like a more appropriate parallel, even though that's like literature to literature, right?
00:10:11
Speaker
Would be the conversation that we're having. i mean, I don't know if you guys pay attention to music at all, but um that sampling music or um that How easy it is, right? So that the – let me – I'm losing it here.
00:10:26
Speaker
Pulling it together. Got it. So um that when it comes to creating music, there is there is a the conversation for sampling and pulling from other people's created works.
00:10:37
Speaker
it there' the The line becomes very difficult to tell sometimes if someone stole something or if if it happened organically or like where's the line and how do you attribute it? How do you respect the differences, right? So with fanfic, it sounds to me like it's very clear that this this if the scaffolding if you're pulling scaffolding from another author – then it's it's more like it's not like you're you're inspired by the same combination of notes and it just happened organically. It's like sampling from that. do you know what I mean? You are sampling from another creator.
00:11:07
Speaker
you get what he'm saying? Right. Where with music, there's a legal framework for this, right? Like with fanfic, this is happening like differently. Right. Yeah. And I think a key difference with just like sampling versus fanfic is what Aaron said about a reader who is not familiar with the source material.
00:11:31
Speaker
Right. Might. will is not going to get all the nuances of what's going on in the fanfic because the fanfic assumes that everybody reading this um knows all of these characters and has a baseline understanding for how magic in the world works or how government in the world or whatever it is. Right, right, right. if you're reading, you know, Star Trek, Kirk, Spock, Slashfic,
00:11:59
Speaker
then it is like they're not explaining yeah the ship like how's what the enterprise is or warp drive or who the romulans are or whatever it is um they just are assuming that the readers already know that whereas if you're writing a captain science officer in space book that's your own or taking your fanfic and rewriting it you have to add the context of well like this is these are these aliens and we're at war with them right right right and here is an interesting um layer to consider perhaps uh based on both of your comments is copyright infringement comes into play right so
00:12:47
Speaker
publishing Part of the issue potentially of publishing and monetizing fanfic is that there would be definite room for arguments of copyright infringement.
00:12:58
Speaker
um In music, copyright infringement is maybe a little bit more. I'm not a lawyer. but I have a background in IP, but I'm not a lawyer. but And i'm I didn't work on music. But I think music is a little bit more straightforward, maybe because you're dealing with very specific. It's a shorter piece than a book. And you're dealing with a specific um chords and phrases, maybe. Or the construction of the music can overlay very clearly. For copyright infringement for a book, it's challenging unless it's like a word for word. overlap because there are no new ideas for stories there are just new ways of putting words together to make a story so unless the plaintiff can prove that you like had access to their work and um knowingly kind of repurposed it there's it's It's kind of hard to prove, especially with copyright.
00:14:00
Speaker
Other IP laws works differently. But especially with copyright, um you can come up with the same idea independently. And it doesn't matter who filed the copyright first. Right. Because it can proved to be an independent
Fanfiction and Literary Development
00:14:11
Speaker
work. Right. But then there's the question of inspiration. But also, again, with copyright, if you're using different words to tell the same story, that's not copyright infringement. Because copyright is based on what you submitted, what you wrote. It's not an idea. It's not an idea. it is right hunt it is the stuff that you produced.
00:14:29
Speaker
But yeah what that means then is you can't write a story about Harry Potter because... Correct. Because Harry Potter was created by somebody else. Because that combination of words, that name is copyrighted, but you can write a book about Harriet Porber.
00:14:46
Speaker
as ah truckingle dead ah But also, to be fair to Chuck Tingle, it's like a – that book is like also ridiculous. It's doing its own So it's doing its own thing. It's doing its own thing. Absolutely. So like this is all – that's all very interesting, like the mechanics and everything, and that's good. But what's kind of lighting me up is like what you had mentioned initially, and it's kind of – the way you said it is kind of slipping my brain. But just like the – it's more the – the um the effect that fanfic do you know what i mean when you said something about it and i was like well huh because I know especially since you very eloquently in the beginning brought up Holly that a lot of this stuff tends to i feel like being in the romance book space that fanfic
00:15:35
Speaker
tends to re like it there's more of like an overlap with the fanfic in romance than perhaps other genres because so much as you said of fanfic revolves around relationships oh yeah i feel like when i was in middle school i read molder and scully fanfic oh yeah i was like i want them to together so bad yeah but but the point is like so so people are responding that what it's sounding like to me people are responding to the possible chemistry the It is chemistry, but they're taking the chemistry between two two characters and they're imagining what could happen if sparks through, right? So I think that that this is a unique conversation for the romance space because what we're really looking at is people are inspired by this kind of kinetic energy, right? Between two characters is possible energy between two characters. And and they, I don't think I used that right. Is it kinetic energy or is it...
00:16:31
Speaker
Kinetic energy moves. Potential energy is what is at the top of the hill with the thing not moving. So please let apologize. I apologize, scientists and people who are type a I spoke wrong. It's not kinetic energy. It's potential energy. Thank you. I'm sorry. I knew it as soon as I said it and then i was like, I think you didn't go to advanced science. And I did.
00:16:49
Speaker
um Anyway, and point being, i think people are inspired by that. And so me being me, like with the, I love people taking chances on writing. I think all that's really cool. And I love authors. I i know I've been a little bit rantier than than late than usual lately, but i I love authors trying new things and stuff. So I have a hard time. I feel like my lean ignoring the copyright thing, right? My lean is that I'm like, this
Fanfiction as a Writing Exercise
00:17:15
Speaker
is so great. This is getting people writing and like imagining and I love everything about this. Like, I think this is so great. This is awesome. I have never read fanfic, but but I know that it has that it has resulted in the romance sphere in authors actually –
00:17:28
Speaker
people who were just inspired by this energy between characters to actually write books and publish them. Like, but then the question is, so then I sit with it and I listen to you guys analyzing it and I'm like, well, hold on a second. Like, okay.
00:17:40
Speaker
So I'm sitting here like, go you writing your books. And then in the back of my head, I'm like, Ooh, I can see why people, I can see why people get their nose out of joint about it. Well, yeah. So I guess this ties into the question of like, then at what point is it just inspiration?
00:17:54
Speaker
and right And why are we insisting on using this word for authors inspired by fanfic? But maybe Holly, you were going to address something else. It sounded like you were going to say something. Well, I was just going to say, like also, to be clear, like the world of fanfic is huge. And it is it in it is kind of fun. And I don't actively read fanfic, but I have read a few. I had a i had a period where I like fell in a deep hole. And then...
00:18:21
Speaker
it It was a whole thing. But I'm not in that hole anymore. um But like, there are lots of like plenty of people write these long epics, but plenty of people also just write like cute little shorts. And so here's an example.
00:18:35
Speaker
um There is a woman who wrote in to ask a manager and was like, let me tell you the story of this like crazy work date experience I had. Okay.
00:18:48
Speaker
and I'm listening. Right? some guy like invited her to his office Christmas party and she thought as friends and he thought as more than friends. and he And it was awful. Everything was awful. And she got like really drunk at the party because like he at one point went and started playing the piano And like playing you're so vain and staring at her. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So they need to ask a manager. It was just like, let me share, tell me, share my story.
00:19:24
Speaker
And, um, people have written multiple fanfic short stories set in different universes. Wow. Based on this Ask a Manager post. I'm into it. ah Right? And so, like, there's one that's, like, set in the MCU. And, oh, I don't, like, i don't remember them all. Right? But it's just, like... It's like a little sandbox that people play around in and have fun with and are just like, hey, I read this weird thing on the internet. I'm goingnna like i'm going to write 15,000 words based on this 1,000 word thing and add a bunch of details and like make it between characters that I know about and think they're fun. right um
00:20:15
Speaker
So i'll I'll link the show. um the original that's hilarious i would love to that some o yeah that's fun because but then it's like i guess okay right oh man i sorry that was a tangent i'm sorry yeah but i like it and now i'm like want to ask a different question but i was already talking about inspiration would this would be a great inspiration for a romance novel it would right it would that's okay so okay maybe i can tie this all together because i had i already asked the question about inspiration like where's this line mm-hmm for inspiration versus fanfic versus whatever. And can you be inspired by something and it can be detached from its roots.
00:20:58
Speaker
um And then also, I guess, with respect to this ask a manager fanfic, like if you don't know that this exists or like I was saying earlier, I haven't read, I don't have any idea who these like famous manga characters are. who are i have no idea. But um if I were to read something that was inspired by, you know, these fanfics, would I even recognize it as such if somebody didn't tell me?
00:21:22
Speaker
a Does that matter? Well, and I think that's that's the key. I mean, hello because like I said, the one thing that I recognized is that in the romance sphere, I do know that there have been authors who have reworked some fanfic, right, and published it on its own legs. And i i can see why some people are, I'm going to say snooty, and that's going to be an oversimplification. i I'll say are conflicted or have strong feelings about that entry into writing. But um I guess the reason my gut instinct was like, this is great is because, you know, in writing classes, but we were, i there was not a level, i took writing all the way up through like,
00:22:05
Speaker
I mean, as soon as they offered writing classes and as an elective or as soon as they had opportunities to do it, that's what I was doing. And I have never had anyone coaching me in writing who did not have you imitate an author. So like try to get the voice, try to get the way that they, the pace, the word choice, the way that they, you know, dialogue. You know, that's really interesting too. And KJ Charles does that. Like, right.
00:22:26
Speaker
It's a, it's a really legitimate. Clearly there was when I read, i was like, this is Georgette Hare. Except for, and I think even she was like, yeah, i set out to write Georgette Hare book that was like not anti-Semitic and racist. Yeah. what you know probably And queer. And also queer. So, and I, this is going to sound like a humble brag, but I'm going to do it. So I, in college, there was an award for writing and it was for three different genres, right? So it was poetry, ah nonfiction and fiction.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I, on a whim, applied for all three, right? So, um, When I picked my selections, I just picked what I thought was the strongest. I didn't write anything fresh. you know what i mean? i just picked what I already had. So I submitted it. So it was a it's a blind competition. And um this is where the Humble Bread came comes in. I was the first person in like the history of the award to win in two out of three categories. Wow.
00:23:18
Speaker
Congratulations. I know. Thank you. I currently write nothing. But back then, I wrote a lot. What are you talking about? You write blog. Yeah, I review. Creatively. I'll say creatively. Creatively. But point being, um well, no, I get creative with my reviews. Sometimes I say funny things. Anyway, point being, here's, here's, here's I was at this day, I was really intimidated and I was talking to one of my professors, one of the professors who terrified me, actually, because she's really good. And ah anyway, she was saying, she said, she said, i'm not supposed to tell you this, but, um you know, they read it blind, they judge it blind. And on purpose, they try to pick They don't want to have people within multiple categories, right? So they try to pick, um you know, different stuff. But I had been working with, I was in writing clubs and stuff, and I had done this exercise of writing with different voices so many times that I feel very comfortable writing in different voices. And so they they were flabbergasted when they discovered that, well, I went in poetry and I went in fiction, that they were the same person because they said it was, they could not tell at all. And I i attribute that to having so much opportunity to practice
00:24:20
Speaker
Right. pretending to be somebody else right like i'm i'm writing this like i'm wearing this hat i'm writing this like somebody else so when it comes to fanfic i think that's like it's a huge writing opportunity and i for people who are able to take fanfic and then turn it into something that sounds like them like you know like shift it successfully I think that's actually quite a feat because it, it I mean, like at that point I'd been writing, you know, obviously, you know, I'm not anymore, but I, you know, I'd done that activity. I'd worked on that for at that point for probably like, I don't know, seven years, eight years of of writing constantly, you know, in different voices. I'd done the exercise a ton of times, you know, like all that. Whoa, Lordy. Point being.
00:25:00
Speaker
So I, I see that. And I think that that person has innate writing talent if they can. And, and I don't, I, tend to be i think it's great. I think that's awesome. i I do understand that if you read that somebody has finished work that was a you know published romance and you were like, I see too much of the author who inspired you in this, that's probably not a successful transition.
00:25:24
Speaker
okay Unless it's meant to be like an homage, like kate the KJ Charles that you were talking about. Right, where she intentionally did it. or Or I feel like the other side where it's not successful is if the were the world building doesn't, the new world building doesn't hold together, yeah right? That they are not able to do the work establishing the relationships yes without relying on the established backstory. Yes, yes.
00:25:54
Speaker
I think so much of it ends up having, so much of it has to do with when inspiration shifts into like personal creation, like when it shifts from I'm living in a world that someone else made to I'm making this my own and it needs to stand on its own two feet. um I think, I think that um it's completely dependent on the skill and the intention of the author.
00:26:18
Speaker
And, um and I, I feel like it's, it must be a bit of a tricky space for people who want to write because, I can't imagine having, because I imagine some of these fanfic authors are wildly are wildly successful in that sphere. And I can't imagine having the courage and putting yourself out there. and And if you've been writing as someone else in someone else's head for so long, what kind of courage it must take to step out of that and try to do something of your own. And and so, i don't know.
00:26:49
Speaker
I guess my sympathy is really, i I can understand why people feel like the structure and kind of like falling into someone else's world kind of cheapens it or makes it less impressive i get that knee-jerk thing but i I kind of I'm too I just love people too much want you to write write stuff and well Ingrid you should go poke around on AO3 a little bit I know right well the other I mean Holly pointed out also there's like AO3 is this fanfic space but also people are writing original original work works and there's one on my list to read actually that it sounds really fun but it's like
00:27:28
Speaker
200,000 words maybe at a minimum. It might be even longer. I'm like I don't even know ah how I'm going to find time to read that. I'm still about it. And it's all original. Yeah. yeah i Go ahead. Ingrid, just cancel your KU. Get on AO3.
Ethical Concerns with Real Person Fiction
00:27:44
Speaker
And I will have created a monster. I i think that sounds dangerous. i My favorite thing to do is to come up with the premises of romance novels that I will never write. And they are I feel that I plot wise would have more in common with the I the absurdity is high with the potential plots that I like to come up with. My husband thinks it's hilarious because he's like, i why don't you just write it and i was like, because I don't I just because I just want to think about how weird the plot would be and not actually. That's.
00:28:14
Speaker
what I like. Alright, so where did we land on this conversation, guys? We wandered, Erin. We went wherever we wanted. There was no conclusion. There was no landing. No landing.
00:28:26
Speaker
Fanfic exists. i feel People have feelings about it. That's where we landed. Yeah. We didn't even touch real person fic, which I do. I, like, fanfic I had, I'm like, yeah, cool. I can, you know, like, this can be fun. Like, this is a beautiful community and I have very different feelings about real person
Conclusion and Show Notes
00:28:44
Speaker
fic. so maybe i don't even really like to think about that to be honest with you that makes me very uncomfortable could you imagine if you were somebody who put yourself out there and then someone wrote a book about you and it was like romantic and intimate oh it makes me gag no thank you don't do that usual it's definitely it's definitely happened holly's reviewed one on the blog lord so
00:29:06
Speaker
so um Well, I guess this could be an ongoing series. but I guess we'll see how that. Yeah, we don't do series here. I added it to our don't forget we talked about this note. So maybe it will resurface at some point. Maybe. In the meantime.
00:29:25
Speaker
In the meantime, I guess I have to sign us out, which is you can find whatever show notes exist at smartreport.com slash podcast. I will say that for tumble reads, we usually don't get as involved in the show notes as with our long form podcasts where we have to talk about more stuff. Important links in this one.
00:29:48
Speaker
That's true. There will be important links. And we talked about several books in this. this i don't even know maybe not no we didn't all right just links fine remembering is hard and uh so that's at smart report.com slash podcast you can find the podcast in different places but presumably if you're listening to it you did that already congratulations and to you ah Holly! We're so good at this! We're so good at this! And then we might be around somewhere on the socials sometimes. um
00:30:21
Speaker
Primarily, you can probably talk to Holly on ah Blue Sky or whatever that one is called with the butterfly. And that's all at Smart Report. At Smart Report is all of our things. We appear periodically. Until then. Until next time.
00:30:35
Speaker
Until sometime. Then we will talk again. ah This is time to sign off, guys. All right. Until the next time. Keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!