Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
TSR Book Club: Swordheart
14 Plays10 minutes ago
Ingrid leads this month's Book Club discussion, in which we talk about whether Swordheart is a romance and get deep into the reasons Erin didn't like the bleak moment.
Full show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Book Club Format
00:00:00
Speaker
So what are we doing today? fine We haven't even introduced ourselves yet. We need no introduction at this point. Everybody knows who we are. oh my god. We'll just erase all that.
00:00:13
Speaker
na na na Smut Report! Hello and welcome to the Smut Report podcast. Today we are discussing a book for our book club, which is a new-ish, not new, revamped, reimagined thing that we're doing.
00:00:31
Speaker
Oh, reimagined. I like that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Because ultimately we just like to talk about books. And so this kind of gives us more flexibility and we don't have to read like 15 books at the same time and then discuss them, which is fun personally, I think. But Erin and Holly
Book Pick: Swordheart by T. Kingfisher
00:00:44
Speaker
don't like a challenge. So anyhow. Excuse you. Oh, so you do want to do a pirate bracket?
00:00:52
Speaker
Is that what I'm hearing? Challenge accepted? Oh, man. Anyway. You walked that one, Holly. I'm diabolical. Anyway, I'm Ingrid.
00:01:03
Speaker
I'm Erin. I'm Holly. And today we're doing my pick, which Swordheart by T. Kingfisher, which I think is kind of cheating because Holly is the one who actually got me on Kingfisher in the first place.
00:01:15
Speaker
Well, yeah, but I read Swordheart originally a year ago because Aaron saw it on NetGalley and was like, hey, Holly, maybe you should read this. I think you might like it. So it's like a full circle. Yeah. This author was recommended to me by my outside life book club friend. So was on my radar.
00:01:34
Speaker
And when I saw this thing come up on NetGalley, I was like, I don't think I'm going to read it. Realistically, you know, but I think Holly would also maybe like it. And now and I did. and I did. and now I've read Kingfisher a couple times, too. And I like, this is fun.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah. Here we are. So anyway, we we figured this would be I thought this would be a good one to start the year off because why not? It's got ah enough. wild capers I think for several books packed into one so but we'll we'll get there first things first we're gonna kind of like break it down in our favorite little categories so Erin is covering heat factor today so yes the heat factor for this one is the door is closed but the walls are kind of thin and maybe your friend likes to share a little bit after the fact Ah, I love it
00:02:24
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's a good that's a good description. So and then the character chemistry is i really like you, but obviously you are too cool for me.
Plot & Writing Style Discussion
00:02:37
Speaker
What with him being steel? Yes. Because he's a sword. Yes. Okay. But it's it's mutual. That's how they both are. you are too or You are too good for me. You are too cool for me. like mutual pedestals.
00:02:50
Speaker
Yes. Mutual pedestals is a good way of putting it. And I would say that this is a very consistent chemistry across every single one of Kingfisher's books that I've read. So if you don't like that vibe, you're...
00:03:04
Speaker
you were probably not not gonna like her stuff so yes and i will give you the briefest of rundowns on the plot because we' we're obviously goingnna discuss it in greater detail later but hala tries to kill herself with a sword she's inherited but the sword turns into a man who is sworn to protect her and they decide to try to regain control of her life there you go i also liked holly's one sentence summary Oh, when I... From before when it was like... It was very similar except for like she was specific about... And then they go on a quest to get a lawyer. Yeah. That's very funny.
00:03:41
Speaker
And... And correct. Correct. The white rat is like so fun. So yeah, this is the best part. So that they go on this quest and it is absolutely hilarious. This is one of the things about T. Kingfisher is that she's she couples like... It's absurdity meets... Blunt practicality all at the same time. Do you know what I mean? So it's like the absurdity of falling in love with a sword that can turn into a man.
00:04:06
Speaker
Wow. We just got to go find a lawyer. Really? Well, no. And it's like the... We're on an epic road trip and we're like... meeting paladins and hiding in ditches and like and fighting off monsters and fighting off monsters and ending up in like a magical woodland and but we're all doing we're doing this so we can get a lawyer To go to court. To go to court. It's so prosaic and so whimsical at the same time.
00:04:38
Speaker
ah Yeah. And like she has this tension, you know, where it's also like very charming and funny, but also a little bit horrifying. Yes. Right. Yes. It is. Right? And I can't think of a good example from this book, but my husband right now is reading A Wizard's Guide to Defensive Baking, which is also by T. Ken Fisher. Have you guys read this one? haven't read that one yet. I want to read that one. I have in my house right now from the library.
00:05:04
Speaker
It's middle grade-ish. And it's not it doesn't have a romance. But Bob, the sentient sourdough starter... really encapsulates this because he like lives in a bucket in the cellar and the heroine goes in to like feed him his fire every day and he kind of bubbles to say hello to her every day but also one time there was an ice storm and they couldn't feed him for a few days and when they came back all the rats in the cellar were gone
00:05:35
Speaker
so and her uncle won't go into the cellar because Bob doesn't like him And he's a little bit afraid. Right? So it's just in this one little character and you get all this information in one paragraph.
00:05:48
Speaker
That's awesome. It's so charming, but also like the scariest thing ever. So interestingly, I believe that Kingfisher does write some horror stuff. She does write horror. So there's an undercurrent of it. There's another author that I've read who went from writing thrillers to writing romance. And it's crazy how you can...
00:06:09
Speaker
feel it you don't and it's so subtle it's hard to kind of like pick up on where that feeling is coming from but it's just that like dripping suspense I think it's these little drips and you're like oh this is romantic but why do I feel a little horrified right now or why is it why do I feel a little worried or afraid and so that's the vibe of
Character Dynamics & Humor
00:06:27
Speaker
Kingfisher for sure I think and I'm like slowly making my way through her entire backlist because I think she's fabulous So overall, overall, what are our Like 75 thumbs up? 100? Yeah. i just i She slaps. It's great. What do you think, Erin?
00:06:41
Speaker
my overall is... This book was absolutely delightful and chock-a-block full of absurdist humor. And then the bleak moment happened. Oh, no. Did you have problems with it It's I would love to talk about it. We'll see it, Ingrid, where you take this discussion. But it's it it's like my least favorite form of bleak moment. But I that. Yeah.
00:07:05
Speaker
But so what do I would like to discuss about it potentially is, is that just like my visceral reaction? Or is there something substantive to that opinion?
00:07:17
Speaker
hmm. So possible spoilers forthcoming. Shocking. I know. As we talk about a book. Should we come back to that though? Maybe? Yes. Definitely. And about some the other stuff in it first before we get to... Well, yeah, because I feel like also it builds up a lot.
00:07:33
Speaker
It builds up a lot as we go through and they have so many misadventures, adventures and misadventures as they... take a road trip like to get the lawyer and then home from the lawyer with the lawyer with the lawyer and then again after it's like so there's less that you want I think Ingrid where do you want to start I one of the things I had wanted to talk about was that balance between her humor and the way she handles tension do you have anything else you want to add about humor and the way she handles tension Yes, the absurdist humor.
00:08:02
Speaker
Did we talk about it enough? Because I feel like that's really her unique voice. It is. and so very distinct. That's what makes the book, the the voice that she creates and this balance between humor and and horror and prosaic life stuff is just really fun.
00:08:21
Speaker
So yeah yeah, I don't know which of you said it, but if you, well, I think, well, Holly was talking about something else. But it's like, if you don't like that kind of, How would you even describe as almost like tongue-in-cheeky kind of voice or what? Then this probably won't work for you.
00:08:35
Speaker
But yeah, I thought it was absolutely delightful. i was just like chuckling the whole time. There's something very Monty Python-esque about stuff. small slivers of it just the absurdity part of it but then like I said there's this like kind of almost severe practicality where the characters her characters tend to do really absurd things but with a very practical strident attitude and yeah that is that is like the basis of her tone And so I think if you, yeah, if you don't, if you don't like absurdity, you probably won't like her books at all. So can I just read? Give us an example. Okay. So like, here is the first sentence. Yes. First sentence of the book.
00:09:20
Speaker
Hala of Rutgers Howe had just inherited a great deal of money and was therefore spending her evening trying to figure out How to Kill Himself. It's so good.
00:09:33
Speaker
I mean, like, it's like what the skill. That is, that is, I'm just, yes. I just want to sit with that. I did a whole class once on on opening sentences. And for the life of me, every time I open one of her books, I'm like, she wins.
00:09:48
Speaker
She wins. They're the best ones. All of her books open with like solid, ridiculous sentences like that. I love it. And it is. You're right. That's one of the best examples for it's practical and it's absurd.
00:09:58
Speaker
And I don't know how. It just is. Can I also say listened to it I was like, oh, man, I wish I hadn't so I could pull up some highlights. But this has been the case for me with the books that I've read by Kingfisher recently.
00:10:11
Speaker
which have all been in this world, is there are non-human humanoid beings. Oh, yeah. thenos are The are ones that are just the most delightful. And maybe, Holly, you can find one one of these. But the gnoll is so dry and has this great presentation of being like the humans think that gnolls are dumb, like worker, not skilled, whatever. And the gnolls are over here being like, man, humans are so weird. yeah but they And they say this is like humans cannot smell, you know, so like the gnolls always know what's going on because they can smell it. And so there are these one liners. So the gnoll in this case is the cart driver for the priest lawyer who they get to help them. And the gnoll, so like they're on their journey and they get into these scrapes or they start arguing or whatever. And the gnoll just comes in with these one liners and they're just like, Perfect.
00:11:16
Speaker
So funny. Right. So like, here's here's a scene. Hala and Zale, who is the lawyer, are like, trying to figure out how Sarkis' stuff works.
00:11:29
Speaker
works Right? How his magic works. Because he had a previous owner who would cut his tongue out. Sarkis did. But he when he goes back in the sword, he gets completely healed and his tongue would be back in his mouth next time he came out. So they were like, huh, does that work with everything? so they're like, how about you pee in a jar for us? And then we're going to put you back in the sword and see if your pee is still there. And he's like, he's like what? And they're just like, yeah, do it. It'll be fun. Yeah. So he looks around for help.
00:12:00
Speaker
Brindle, who was the gnoll, glanced at him, shook his head and said, ask somebody else, sword man. gnoll isn't getting involved. Yeah. Right? it's It's like that. And he's like, ugh. So then he goes and pees in the bushes. And then, and we also should say that the writing tone is very funny, but then Hala in particular is just like, you never know what she's going to say next. And so he goes and pees in a jar and then he comes and gives her the jar and she says, yay. Yeah.
00:12:36
Speaker
yeah And he's so long suffering and he's like no one in my entire life has ever said yay when I handed a dark piss. And she's just like well there's a first time for everything. la la la And that really encapsulates the dynamic.
00:12:55
Speaker
He spends a lot of time counting. like guess He's trying to like calm down. It's pretty funny. Yeah. Yes. It's magnificent really. And we haven't even gotten into the lawyer who is one of my favorite. And that's one of the next things I want to talk about actually was side characters. So I think that Kingfisher has her side character action is so good. Yeah. Because her side characters, like Aaron said, they, there's,
00:13:19
Speaker
especially in this book, but in others as well, that they're like the best one-liners that just completely support. It helps build the absurdity because like you said, like so much of it is if you just read the sentence. it's It's not that funny, but when you look at the context of the situation, it it becomes hilarious. And for how little you end up knowing, it's not like they have a scene where they're sitting in the tavern and you learn all about the gnoll's back history and you like know how many siblings the gnoll has. You don't know a lot about these characters, but there's Like the side characters have such unique voices and they present so individually that they they become really fleshed out without you having to know a lot about them, you know? Yeah. And she doesn't go into a lot of backstory or explanation.
Genre Debate: Romance or Fantasy?
00:14:06
Speaker
for this site I mean, I'm thinking of the gnolls, like the culture of the gnolls or the whole thing about the white rat. Like they do talk a little bit about the temple of the white rat because Sarkis is unfamiliar with it, but she doesn't info dump either. And yet you still end up with a very complete picture of at least the unique elements of these gnolls.
00:14:27
Speaker
groups and the care like where the characters are coming from without a lot of documentation right she's good at these little pieces I was gonna say though I read Swordheart first and then last over the last year I read a bunch of her other books many of which also take place in this same world and so rereading Swordheart I was like oh I understand a lot better all the context that's going on around it because like my understanding of the white rat and so after I read Swordheart was like okay they like just provide lawyers but actually no the white rat is basically like the public defender's office and social workers and and health clinic basically they provide all the city services that a government a good government should yeah that's true but in this case doesn't there is a lot of
00:15:20
Speaker
additional room for a robust world building. And as you get into the Saint of Steel stuff, there's, there are some references in this book, but to the Clocktar War, which also is like, it's a technically a different duology. But if you look on Goodreads, there's like a multi- series tag that you can click and so it's all in the you know the world of the white rat series ish even though they're like sort of also separate stories but you don't get a ton of the clock to our war stuff here there are just some references and then it gets much more involved as she gets into some other stuff that's fair i was thinking also though since we were talking about the voice and especially the absurdist humor and the the ensemble cast
00:16:05
Speaker
element that I would call this like a romantic comedy. This is a comedy. Even with the sort of serious underlying element of Hala having to like fight for her inheritance and some other very serious things that that occur and you know murders or whatever.
00:16:23
Speaker
And they're living in this like dystopia with theological oppressor group causing problems. But it was problems. And I think that the cast of characters I've been thinking over and I've read a couple other comedies kind of around this time or in the past couple months and. I feel like an ensemble cast really contributes to a good romantic comedy. Yeah. I was actually going to talk about that because I, like Holly had said, not all of Kingfisher's books, they're not all like romances and that she has that horror background. So this one felt a little bit more romantic to me, but I don't know that I feel confident saying that Kingfisher is like a romance author at all really and so I was like should we discuss whether or not we think that this is romance or is it adjacent or is it neither well so I think Swordheart is a romance Kingfisher herself calls the white rat books she calls those right fantasy romance and she calls her other stuff just fantasy so I think she would make a distinction and say this book is more of a romance and these other books might have romance in them but are not romances and And I would say Swordheart is a romance simply, like, even though it does have these fantasy elements of the quest, you know, it's got the quest.
Character Growth & Relationship Dynamics
00:17:42
Speaker
But romance, we just call that road trip. It's road trip romance. And because the central arc, is about the relationship between the two people. And in fact, the inheritance kind of ends up being MacGuffin, right? And that's solved earlier than one would expect given that they're doing this epic quest to solve the inheritance, but then they solve it. And then the real problem presents itself, which the relationship between Sarkis and Hala. agree that I would call this a romance and I would say that what I've read is a romance in no small part because of the focus on I'm gonna say feelings
00:18:31
Speaker
ah sometimes it's pants feelings throughout the story right so i actually just read another fantasy I would call it a romanticy actually because I think it's more fantasy with a romantic subplot than a romance as we make that as we make that distinction maybe between what is a romanticy what is fantasy romance and what is fantasy but from the jump I mean from the jump jump When Hala unshees the sword, she's like, she spends this whole time, she's like, this a really long sword. Like, how do I fall on it That was really funny. i felted she was like I was like, oh man, this one has ADHD. So she's like... How do I fall on it? This doesn't seem like it'll be right. If I lay on it, then ah that won't work. But, like, how would I even hold it up? And so she's trying to figure out the best way to kill herself with this, like, super long sword. And she ends up bare-chested is, like, gonna try and run herself through with the sword. And then Sarkis materializes and is like, hello, i am your prote... Oh, my gosh! Put your breasts away! And so...
00:19:39
Speaker
um and so From the jump, we get this sort of like sexualized situation between them. And that doesn't go away. I mean, they're going on their quest. It's a very slow burn, right? But there are situations that crop up where he's like, oh my God, look at her figure. I need to have cleaner thoughts. But and she's like, wow, am I just like really bad at seducing people? Because I kind of thought that he was into me but like the lick the licking scene do you guys remember that where she's like licking her fingers and she notices him like looking at her but then he like leaves and she's like well i thought that that was working but then he left like what else should i lick and then she's like well this wouldn't be sexy to lick and it just like spirals off which is another way it's just like oh my gosh the adhd is showing but
00:20:31
Speaker
There's so many moments of that. Oh, and um listeners, to be clear, he leaves because he needs to go out in the woods and of something. And Hollis is like, oh my goodness. The other thing that happens throughout the story is this sort of internal monologue that Holly mentioned earlier, where they are constantly thinking about how they may might want to pursue the other but are not worthy of the other so you do have a dual kind of desire and longing resistance so pause Erin because you have literally naturally because I think we're sisters You think you're sisters? No, i I think the reason why is because we're sisters, but I i have to point this out because Aaron, despite us being sisters, Aaron and Holly have always, like there have been times we've been talking and I've been like, I don't understand the words that you're saying because they have like mental, you know, shorthand and then they start saying things and they can understand each other, but I can't. so this is the first time where i' like, ah
00:21:33
Speaker
because aaron's jumped ahead of the next thing i was going to talk about the entire time we've been talking naturally and i'm like great segue sis like next thing i want talk about because the next thing wanted to talk about was their relationship because i was like they have this unique kind of push pull resist support dynamic going on i almost cried in the beginning when he's like so you're just gonna kill yourself like how about we just leave Like, vanquish your foes. you know Like, let's do this. Because you could see, like, they are obviously not a couple at that point. She just discovered that this isn't a sword. It's a person right now. So none of this, there is no relationship dynamic overtly happening in the very beginning besides her being like, dang, he hot. And he's like, wow, boobs. So, you know.
00:22:17
Speaker
And yet, right from the beginning, you can see there's this moment where you're like, he is going to help give her that push so she can save her own life. Because he's just so matter of fact about the fact that she deserves, like, go save yourself. Let's do this. I'm a sore. i'm I'm here to protect you. You go do the thing. Because the dynamic that I...
00:22:39
Speaker
swooned over was that he is her sworn protector and he is I don't want to subservient I'm trying to think of like the white right way of putting it but like he's there for her what she wants he wants he's gonna get it done that's the bottom line it's like eternal and unflagging support Yeah. Ultimate magical bodyguard. yes But it's not just because it's like he immediately brings in the feeling of it that she deserves to feel the way she wants to feel in her life. Like, let's get you free then. Yeah. And I think that's particularly illustrated later on or as they continue and build this relationship where he's trying to figure her out. They have such an interesting dynamic. They do. That's what I want to talk about. She's the balloon and he's the little weight on the bottom of the balloon, you know? Yeah. But also it begins with him being like, what is she doing?
00:23:28
Speaker
Because he's got his own idea of like, well, it's just like, I'm just going to hack and slash. It's like brute strength. And then his perspective that the southern lands are ah decadent and silly and nonsensical and he should just and then he runs across stuff and he's like, that's messed up.
00:23:49
Speaker
I should kill it with fire. ah but But then she kind of illuminates or explains in different parts, depending on where we are, why she is behaving the way she is. So there's lots of humorous ADHD. And I say that, I'm like, honestly, it felt like an ADHD thought process thing when she talked sometimes. It was just like this. Okay, here we're going here and then we're here and now we're here and it all made sense. But it's like very hard to listen to or follow when you're on the outside. But in combination with this personality where she has developed a habit of making herself small to be more accepted. And I think that's also something that a lot of people, women especially with ADHD, have experienced. And so it's like both humorous and in some places genius and also kind of really sad because Hala's primary way of weaponizing herself to get what she wants or needs is by making herself small and stupid. And Serkis is like, what is going on? And then he begins to understand and he sees in some places how clever that is of her and how she gets them them out of pickles. Yes. But also he sees how sad it is that this is the skill that she's developed in order to protect herself. And, you know, we said I said earlier that he spends a lot of time counting under his breath and that never goes away. But he also gets to the point where it's kind of like he's acting exasperated. Because he loves that she's so curious and yeah interested in things. And, you know, with the whole, like, peeing in the jar sequence, he's just like, oh my god, this is so ridiculous.
00:25:38
Speaker
And she and the lawyer are doing their thing. But he also kind of likes it that he's, like, learning new things about himself. And that she, because of her... he can understand himself and his situation better. And that sounds kind of self-serving, but it's also just like he eventually starts to just be joyful and interested in what she's he talking about. He has been so disconnected because his life is dependent upon whoever he protects.
00:26:07
Speaker
And so he's disconnected himself from his own humanity almost entirely, I think, even when he is a human. And so Hala, because of her absurdity, reconnects him with first these simple happiness, comfort, acceptance, you know, camaraderie. Because of the nature of his curse or whatever, I mean, he has cut himself off so much. So Hala kind of being the natural human connector, she gathers people to her. So I think it's very healing for him because he's a protector who is forced to be loyal. And he finds... He is forced. Forced. Yeah, I think that's a key component. He is forced to be loyal as a punishment. And so that Hala reawakens in him...
00:26:53
Speaker
Like the desire to be part of something bigger than himself and to not be afraid of that connection of being part of a team again. i thought it's just so mutually and it's subtle. You know, I've missed so much. I think the reason that her books feel like they're just so expertly written is that she is so good at not beating you over the head with the message. do you know what I mean? At no point is any of this explicitly said. There are moments where it's very clear, but it's not like he sits down and says, Hala, you reconnected me with my humanity and my desire to be part of a team. Like that never happens. Do you know what i mean? and And she never sits there and says, Sarkis, I now feel that I have a right to exist and take up space and be my own weird self and to disappoint people and that it's okay. If I push back, you know, like it never is said, but the end result and the reason I wanted to talk about their relationship so much is that I feel like from the moment they set eyes upon each other, the wheels already in motion and you don't even know what's happening. But the way that they treat each other, even despite their bumps in the beginning and they're like clashing in the beginning, it almost feels like they're fated to meet each other and to be together, even though that is not the case whatsoever.
00:28:05
Speaker
I liked their relationship a lot. I agree. In some ways, I felt like it was extremely relatable. like Well, that's because both of us have ADHD. So it's like, well, that's familiar.
00:28:16
Speaker
i I kept expecting to hear him say, could you finish the sentence? Because that's what my husband does to me sometimes. He's like, you've started eight sentences, Ingrid. Bring us home. And I'm like, I don't know where I started anymore.
00:28:27
Speaker
Well, and there's that moment in the road where they get waylaid and she's doing her like performative thing. And then the priest, was it the obnoxious priests or the the bad priests? Not obnoxious. They were like sinister. Was like, can't your husband speak for himself? And Sarkis's only response is my wife talks enough for both of us. Yeah.
Kingfisher's Afterwords & Author's Style
00:28:51
Speaker
I was like, it me so anyway but I think to maybe bring this whole thought home as we've been bouncing around is we seem to have illustrated that our characters have grown separately and together in the course of this story which is fundamentally romance that's how we define it yep So I also wanted to tell you, I don't know if you guys had, did you have you guys read her like afterwards at all? So I listened to the book and they didn't record the afterword in the audio book, but Holly mentioned it too. But when yeah I'm curious about it now i I highly recommend reading them. So you know how sometimes you read a book and you think to yourself, oh my gosh, I want to be like friends with that character. in all of her books, I slide into the afterward and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's her. So the author, she ah she almost always tells some story about how she came up with this book or this thing. It is always absurd.
00:29:50
Speaker
And you just sit there going, how do you exist? You're real. like she is so ah a lot of her characters, her heroines, She said this, I believe, that they're kind of modeled more after her. So you'll notice that her characters are not like young, waif-like ingenues. They're usually kind of more middle-aged. They're usually described as kind of like softer around the middle. you know, they're not...
00:30:13
Speaker
built like viking warrior princesses they're they look real like real people which i love i mean they're all like 35 and think of themselves as old and i like shrivel up inside but they're definitely but technically i don't know how to break this to but apparently like mid to late 30s is middle middle-aged but i reject that for me it's 50 um anyway Here's, but here's the thing. So, and so I read that the afterward of Nettle and Bone has been stuck in my head forever because basically I think she came up
Exploring the Bleak Moment
00:30:43
Speaker
with the entire plot from Nettle and Bone. Well, she describes that there's, it's more complicated than that, but one of the best parts of that book is this demon possessed chicken. that's in the book and she talks about her chickens and ah so anyway the whole point of this being i think the author herself is fascinating and I highly recommend that if anyone reads her books check out the afterwards it's worth it so we we were going to talk about that bleak moment though because I I will not lie to you when I read the bleak moment and I was like Aaron's gonna hate this
00:31:12
Speaker
Because as we all know, Aaron's least favorite bleak moment. And let's just pause here for a second and everybody count to five because you're going want to fast forward if you don't want spoilers. One, two, three, four, five. Okay, cool. So anyway, Aaron's least favorite bleak moment is when one of the characters is like, how could you? Oh, and then runs away. And it's like, really? And then, you know, misunderstandings happen. And that's the bleak moment. And that's kind of what happened here. Yeah. So here's what happens. Things are feeling resolved. Sarkis in particular was feeling like once the quest is over, that's when I can make my move because then Hala won't feel pressured to go. say yes to me for fear that I will, you know, not protect her whatever. And so they finally have their night together.
00:32:05
Speaker
And then after that, Sarkis kind of feels like before they can do anything else in their relationship, he needs to come clean about his past and why he's really not worthy of Hala.
00:32:19
Speaker
And his fear is rejection because he's not good enough. He's He was a horrible person before and he's afraid of rejection and he's still afraid of rejection even after their night together. And so instead of telling her himself, he goes to her uncle's, you know, collector colleague's.
00:32:40
Speaker
priest companion guy who showed up and is like hey you read this writing on the sword and that is his confession so they're both in here holla and sarkis are both in this room with this priest dude who reads the confession which is Sarkis is a betrayer and he switched sides. So he was a leader of a merc a group of mercenaries. He switched sides during a campaign, but then reinforcements finally appeared. So what looked like it was going to be all is lost turns into a victory and now he's on the losing side after all. And so he gets punished by being put in the sword, but also loses all of his people. So he has enormous guilt over what happened. And Hala's reaction to this is to feel like she has been lied to for their entire relationship because she has felt like he was a hero in his past and now she is discovering that he is a betrayer at one point she refers he's a criminal and a liar and a yeah betrayer i can't there's like a you know all these things So that's the big, that's the big fight. The consequences are in her moment of anger, she decides that she doesn't want anything to do with him because of this. And she says, i give you to yourself, to Sarkis. She's like, I relinquished, basically is relinquishing the sword. The importance of this, I don't know if we've been specific about it, is that the bearer of the sword is the one who controls Sarkis.
00:34:19
Speaker
So the reason that she has him as a bodyguard is because she is the sword bearer. She's the one who unsheathed it after its previous owner relinquished it, died, whatever. And yeah as she has now relinquished it, Sarkis is now no longer hers. And then she's, you know, the sword gets shut and he disappears again. The conversation is over. Obviously, that becomes a problem. And then, you know, the fallout happens, which we can discuss further. But I feel like that is the essential points of what the conflict is, is the she feels betrayed by learning circus's history. Yeah, that that's pretty accurate. Okay, so why you hate it? what I hate about it, and this is what I would love to kind of dig my teeth into, because this is frequently the problem I have with this, is not that I don't understand that she might have feelings about learning this. My issue tends to stem from, in this particular context, because Ingrid said misunderstanding earlier, but I feel like this isn't really a misunderstanding. Well, the misunderstanding is that she thinks that she can give him back to himself.
00:35:25
Speaker
Well, yeah, I understand. So like the impression that I got is she thought she was gonna be able to go back to him like that he wasn't gonna be gone forever. She was just angry. And she was like, I never want to see you again. But she didn't think that that meant that she was giving him to someone else. Yeah. Yeah. So she was doing a lot of stuff emotionally in the moment. Definitely. Which is understandable. I don't feel like that's not understandable. but The reason I hate this black moment is because it it hinges on an expectation of entitlement to information. And he is in the wrong for allowing her to like he feels guilty because he knew that she was assuming that he was a hero and he never corrected that. And I can understand that emotion, too. I think that is probably a legitimate feeling if you're harboring some self-hatred and guilt over your past actions and also fear of rejection in revealing your worst moment to somebody that you really want to like you. And I think it's fair for her to assume based on their experience. somewhat limited conversations about his past that he would have been like a good guy, especially in view of their interactions together. Did he say that he was a mercenary at any point? He never said that he served for like a ruler's army, but I don't remember if he...
00:36:46
Speaker
No, I think he was yeah he is very vague. He was pretty vague. And he also made it kind of clear that he didn't want to talk about it, his past. So he never said he was a mercenary, but he also never said who he worked for. And he was kind of clear that he didn't like his past or didn't like to talk about his past. But Hela hala just has this like rose colored glass. She never walks into a situation thinking that sinister elements are in play. Right. Like she gets robbed on the road because she thinks she's helping some woman out. And I wouldn't want to walk alone on the road. So, of course, I'll walk with this other woman and this other woman sets her up to get robbed, you know, and she ends up in a bad spot. So Hala's issue is just like these this very optimistic worldview.
00:37:30
Speaker
Right. But I just never think it's fair that there is this entitlement to information, especially when he didn't. I always get irritated, too, when it's like, I want to talk about something. I'm thinking of mercenary librarians in particular. I'll never forget mercenary librarians where the the hero is like, I really want to tell you something. She's like, sex first, talk later. And he's like, well, I didn't really want to talk about it. So never mind. Yes, sex. And then they never talk later. And then it gets discovered. And then it's a big problem. I'm just like, can you?
00:38:00
Speaker
grow up but it's not that here but the situation is that she feels like she was entitled to this information from him as he is giving her the information and never like outright lied about it so i just really struggle with that So I guess I'm curious whether if this had just been a a fight, so they have sex the next day. He's like, okay, so I do have to tell you something. I did a really bad thing in the past. That's why I'm in the sword. And she gets really upset. And she's like, I need to take a walk and leaves. And two hours later, she comes back and he's still there.
00:38:39
Speaker
Right? Even if they'd done all that yelling at each other. Right? Where she's real mad about it. And she's like, you know what? I need to go process this. And I never want to see you again. But you he you know she doesn't mean it. And then she comes back and he's still there. And it had just been a fight.
00:38:55
Speaker
Would you still feel the same way? Or do you only feel like this because of the circumstances around it that are outside of her control? Or because she... didn't really think through ah some of the consequences of somebody else being. I mean, that was also frustrating. No, this 100% for me hinges on this entitlement to information attitude. It's not that she's upset because she learned something new. that calls into question her understanding of his character. And this is the other thing that's unique to this book, I think, is up to this point, she has been with him the whole time. So usually this is also an issue. You've been with this person for how long?
00:39:34
Speaker
And nobody can really wear a mask 100% of the time, right? So even if he were trying to deceive her, there would probably be moments where she was like, that seems weird. But in this case, it's not just a situation of he has to protect her. It's a situation of he is going out of his way to ensure specific think good things for her. he expresses jealousy at a few points. he gets really stressed out when he thinks that she's in trouble. so there have been so many moments where he's shown his true colors, I want to say.
00:40:13
Speaker
By action and not just by what he said and not necessarily just because he owes it to her as compelled by the sword. Now, that's where I think this one's particularly interesting because he is compelled. He is compelled. And that introduces a unique power dynamic here. For sure. Which is why I was like, I don't know, maybe I need to check myself. But also it's frustrating because it's questioning whether or not she can believe what she's seen or experienced. red But the way that it is expressed is like she was entitled to information that he is frankly entitled to share whenever he's comfortable with it. And so if she had said something along the lines of, I don't know what to think anymore, I would not have reacted the same way. Okay. So what I wanted to, I wanted to break down an alternative perspective, which may or may not change how you, or ah change how you feel about it. But, but let's look at some contextual clues about the characterizations. Ready? So I think you've broken down Sarkis really well, but I think that one of the things that, cause you know, we've talked about how Kingfisher shows she doesn't tell. yeah,
00:41:14
Speaker
Hala, we've enjoyed a lot of the more absurd parts of her personality, but her vulnerabilities are kind of, they're not made fun of. But because of her humorous characterization, I think her vulnerabilities are not as overt. So think about the way that we meet her. She is basically feeling so powerless in her, even though she's inherited all this money, she's feeling so powerless that she's decided she's going kill herself.
00:41:38
Speaker
Throughout the entire story, she's bumbling along being hilarious and awesome and, you know, brassy and all that stuff. But also she's kind of only just for the first time in her life built this small pot of people that she's learned that she kind of trusts. And she has her heart on her sleeve. She sleeps with Sarkis, which is deeply vulnerable.
00:41:55
Speaker
She finds out that he is not who she thought he was. And I think that it puts her back at that powerless space where she's like, you know, he's not telling me the truth. Yeah, I guess, and like, Erin, it sounds like you who had a strong emotional reaction to this, what you call, like, like entitlement for information. I mean, and I'm not going to tell you that your emotional reaction is wrong because your emotional reaction is what it is. But I guess for me, I don't find it unreasonable to feel betrayed if, even if she's having an unreasonable emotion, like, emotions are unreasonable.
00:42:32
Speaker
So I can... roll with it does that make sense i mean yeah i think that's what people do all the time and i i can see where it was going with her vulnerability because she does process this as like once again am here in this unwanted space yeah yes and then of course we go on and like this sets forth a whole other like second quest a second quest to go save him yes and You know, she figures stuff out.
Final Quest & Character Arcs
00:43:04
Speaker
It's not like things are not presented as having happened in the heat of the moment.
00:43:10
Speaker
Like I said, my issue exclusively stems from the fact that she feels like she was entitled to this information. And I think this is the thing that Ingrid might be trying to get to as well. She feels like now she can't believe all of her own personal experiences in view of this new information, which I think, Holly, you also hinted at it because this guy is 500 years old. right He has been in the sword for like 400 years. So he's not, he's had like lifetimes of experiences between this bad choice well right and now.
00:43:42
Speaker
and And yes, I think there's an emotional component to discovering something new where you're like, oh my God, but also like, when are you entitled? When is it reasonable to demand a person's history and be mad if you don't have it. I think the issue is that they slept together first. And that sex was like a really vulnerable, scary thing for her.
00:44:03
Speaker
Like there, you know, there's a whole, it's played for laughs, but her first husband did not, did not treat her so well in the bedroom. Just because she doesn't act like she is traditionally vulnerable does not mean that there aren't clues all the way throughout it that She has not had support. She has not had, you know, people in her corner for most of her life up until the moment this book starts. And then when she does, it would probably be kind of destabilizing to realize that you thought you had this intimate relationship with this guy. But then all of a sudden, you're made aware that you didn't know like critical parts of who he is as ah as a person who he has been. I mean, like, I didn't read it as that she felt like she was entitled to that information. i read it as the way that he disseminated that information was insensitive. he She made herself vulnerable for him and he had some guy read off a sword for her. He didn't even have the decency to be like, hey, by the way, I need to tell you this. The way that he did it, like, there was not a mutual exchange of of emotional intimacy there. He did it the coward's way out. And I
00:45:05
Speaker
I get that it was really vulnerable. It was scary for him to share that information. But like when Holly was saying like, would it have been different if they did it this way? I think that if he had done it before they slept together, it may have been different. If he had used words after they slept together, it might have been different. But because of the exact way that the author had it play out,
00:45:20
Speaker
It felt like a fumble, like an emotional fumble. And if you're good, if I blame one, I blame them both. They both fumbled it because they don't know what they're doing because he was a sword the whole time for 500 years. And all she's done is try to stay ah out of the way. You know, she's never taken up space before. So neither of them know what they're doing. So it didn't bother me. i just looked at it as like, oh, yeah, too there it is.
00:45:44
Speaker
no this is where I'm sorry. This is where the other fun part of my brain comes into play, I guess, because it really 100 percent. If even if everything else was exactly the same, he I think that's a great point, Ingrid. He took the coward's way out of being vulnerable to her and putting himself on the line by allowing someone else to share his story or to open to get the ball rolling.
Speculations & Future Plot Developments
00:46:08
Speaker
And she got furious. i Like I said, I think that also tracks in view of her emotional vulnerability.
00:46:16
Speaker
I just... And it's a moment of, and we can see this is a moment of growth for her. This is like the first time that she's... All of that, I just, I really, really hate this. I blame you for my feelings because you owed me something first. If it had been the same thing, but she had just phrased it differently in her lashing out, I probably wouldn't have it.
00:46:40
Speaker
And it happens so much in romance novels. It's such a bleak moment staple of romance novels. not it just a romance novel thing, though, because I think the important thing, and this is something that I think the reason that it can be done so easily. So I think that dynamic and tell me if you think I'm i'm missing the mark here, Erin. But like a lot of times I think that authors can do that clumsily for a reason that's actually pretty understandable, even though I think that it's something that they should work on. And this is what it is. As we know, anger is is a is a shielding feeling.
00:47:09
Speaker
So we as human beings use anger. We go to anger first because it feels safer. It feels safer to feel angry than it does to feel embarrassed or ashamed or betrayed or hurt. You know, when we feel those those feelings frequently, when I talk about this with my children even, that anger is a shield feeling.
00:47:32
Speaker
And that it's really important when you feel anger to like take a second and ask yourself if you're feeling angry or if you're feeling angry and. So it's, you can feel angry. That's okay. It's, we feel what we feel, but are you angry and something else? Like, are you angry and are you also embarrassed? Because the, you can deal with the angry, but you're still going to have the other feeling once the anger passes and then you're going feel bad afterwards, right? So that's, here's parenting, right? Parenting 101. But in these bleak moments, when we see characters who have that flair of anger, but we don't have the context, in order to feel like the character isn't being out of line, like Erin has described, where it looks like she's feeling entitled to information that is a vulnerability for him. Like, how is that fair, right? Well, I think part of the reason these bleak moments can be so frustrating is because when anger is being used as a shield, contextually, by a character, but the underlying feeling isn't unpacked in a way that feels like there's real growth that it addresses, then it feels like it's unjustified anger. Does that make sense? I think you've hit the nail on the head. But it's when anger is used a shield, even if the underlying feeling is addressed, but the anger isn't also address du addressed appropriately, it feels like the anger is just tossed out the window, what you said when you were angry or like how you like...
00:48:53
Speaker
knee-jerk reaction yeah it makes it feel like the anger is unjustified and not like it's a it's part and parcel with a complicated feeling dynamic right and yes and i think yes yes yes right and here it's also she's got embarrassment like oh someone pulled the wool over my eyes again yeah and she's probably some that she was a hallucinating one again yeah yes i think all of that and i think yes Yes.
00:49:20
Speaker
And the anger was not as she was processing all these other feelings. The anger was not yeah also processed and it was left to be justified. Like for me, i can I saw it and I was like, oh, OK, she's just got a little anger shield going on right now. But I think that for some people who aren't like super sensitive sensitive to that dynamic, like for me, i i I don't know. I just assume when someone's angry, it has a feeling pair or something else with it usually. But I've always kind of thought that that was probably, you know, one of those things, literary wise. Because I think when an author is really skillful and they're doing that on purpose, you don't know they're doing it. You know what i mean? they're They're addressing the shield and the underlying feeling at the same time.
00:50:01
Speaker
When an author is perhaps a little bit less like in tune with character building and stuff, that it can be handled sloppily. And then that's where the justification comes into play, where it's like, you know, this is unjustified anger
Closing Thoughts & Next Book Announcement
00:50:12
Speaker
here. You're so welcome. Thanks, Ingrid.
00:50:14
Speaker
You've really broken it down for me. mean, you can be annoyed. That's the best part about this about me. Like explanation is you can still be annoyed because sometimes it isn't handled well. Yeah. Well, and I think I have a fair bit of justice sensitivity. So that always hits me hard in life, but in books when I feel like, wait a minute, we didn't we didn't address this thing and it wasn't right.
00:50:37
Speaker
Like I i liked the second quest. I thought that kind of closing the outstanding loop that they did was important and that they needed some relationship resolution because, you know, it's not so much a romance if you just hit rainbows and butterflies and then there's nothing else. That doesn't give you like, you know, your satisfying romance conclusion. but that yeah, I think that the anger problem Well, and to make it more overt, that second loop didn't just close some plot holes. It also resolved and kind of solidified their character growth. Because remember that the whole point of her going on the quest with Sarkis in the beginning is because she feels so helpless. Like she does not feel like she has any control over these factors in her life. And so she goes back on this quest and she's the leader now. She's going to rescue Sarkis. She is figuring this out.
00:51:34
Speaker
She's... making decisions. She's taking risks. She is protecting herself. And conversely, Sarkis is vulnerable. And Sarkis is facing the, you know, vulnerabilities of his life. And he's grappling with being dependent on someone and that there's hopefully, you know, maybe she'll come for him or whether she will or not. And that, you know, he's been sitting here thinking like, okay, I'm just, I'm an object being controlled. And it's forcing him to examine
00:52:05
Speaker
the pluses and minuses of being dependent upon another person. Well, and it gives him an opportunity to do a most excellent grand gesture. Oh,
00:52:17
Speaker
So extra. Right? Where it's so extra. yeah Where the new wielder is like, attack attack her. And he's just like, yeah no, which he's not supposed to be able to do So he falls on his own sword. And then, of course, because, you know, we got to layer absurdity with practicality yeah here. He falls on his sword and holds it. I know. thought that was great. But how many of us forgot that he can't die when he did that? do you know what i mean Because I was like, oh, no.
00:52:46
Speaker
And I was like, oh, wait, he can come back. No. Oh, no. I completely forgot. I was so gripped by the moment that I was like, no, Sarkis. And I was like, oh, wait, we're good. We're good. OK, we're good. That's been addressed. um So, OK, but about his immortality, could we talk about the ATA and how she handled him being immortal? Take it. Let's Because thought that was also really interesting. Because at the end, you know, they're like, they like have their little talk about the relationship or maybe he's talking to somebody else.
00:53:15
Speaker
They're both talking to the priest or something. And they're like, well, aren't you going to feel bad or resentful when Hala starts getting old and Sarkis keeps staying the same age? And Hala, Sarkis is going to watch you get all withered and he's still going to be this like hot 45-year-old muscle man. And she's just like, nah, nah,
00:53:43
Speaker
It's actually a relief that I'm not going to have to be a caregiver to somebody else. Yeah. Which is another kind of full circle moment. That's a fresh take. It's a very full circle moment, but like for a romance novel, it would be like, oh yeah, no, like one of one of you is immortal and the other is going to die. Yeah. We are not going to change this. yeah Because I feel like in most books, they find a way to take the immortality away or they give immortality to the other person so they can be together forever. Yeah.
00:54:11
Speaker
But in this, it's very explicit that, like, no, what they both want is for him to outlive her. For various reasons. But also we have that little piece in our back pocket that if they can get back to the Wandering Hills, they might be able to take away his immortality. I thought that HGA was interesting. I liked that aspect of it, Holly, that you have described. But also...
00:54:35
Speaker
I felt some unease and was therefore thankful for this little nugget of potentially going back to the Wandering Hills and finding a way to lose his immortality because his being subject to the whims of the wielder worrying is an unresolved issue. We haven't said this yet, but there's going to be a sequel to Swordheart coming out. well But isn't it about one of the other swords? Because there're yes three people were made into swords, so my it's about my assumption is is that there's going to be some...
00:55:05
Speaker
But that will likely be resolved at some point is my guess. Yeah. Daggerbound is coming out August or September of this year. It's about one of Sarkis's companions who was also put in a sword, one of his captains. In the afterward, Kingfisher was like, yes, there's definitely going to be a sequel.
00:55:22
Speaker
But about the captains, except she said, I'm writing the one about this other captain, but not this one. So I guess she got a little stuck. And it's it's been like eight years. So yay, it's coming out. And that's very exciting. But like, it's going to be a long time before the trilogy is totally finished. if it ever happens she wanders yeah you know she's very prolific but she did we really have any doubt about that based on what she wanders things for sure today no yes so anyway i guess closing thoughts here we all loved it minus minus you know yeah i did i was bummed when we hit the dark moment because i was having so much fun up to that point and i was like like yeah ah But I did. But that was the only thing for me, really. Even i i enjoyed the characterization. I enjoyed the setting. Definitely the voice. The voice was delightful. The plot was fun. Excellent. the Yes. I also loved it, obviously.
00:56:17
Speaker
holly loved it. We all loved it. You should read it So guess, Lord, I have to do this again, Holly? All show notes are at smutreport.com slash podcast. And if you would like to read along with our next book club selection, will be reading Rears and Vices by Ian Caro, which is a new release. It's coming out in March. So we're our book club date is about a week after it comes out. So If you pre-order it now, I'll put a link in the show notes, then you too can read this book. It's male, male, male, pirate triple.
00:56:56
Speaker
Fantastic. You know, golden age of piracy. It's going to be so fun. um But none of us have read it before, unlike our first two book club picks. Right, exactly. It's brand new. Who knows what will happen? Absolutely. It's going to take us some unexpected places, probably. i love pirates.
00:57:14
Speaker
Anyway, but Ingrid likes pirates, and Aaron likes gay men, and like crumbles. am so looking forward to that conversation. it's perfect for all of us. Something for everyone. Yeah, I think that's all. Fantastic.
00:57:29
Speaker
Then, i you know, read it and follow along. And as always, keep it smutty, folks. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na Smut Report!